Post Mortem | What the Neighbors Saw

>> Welcome to Post Mortem.

“I'm 48 hours correspondent, Natalie Morales,”

filling in today for Ann Marie Green. And today we are discussing the case of Gary Herbst, who was reported missing by his wife in 2014. Three years later, a dog discovered his skull in rural Wisconsin, and with a gunshot wound in the back of the head.

Joining me today to discuss his fascinating report, is 48 hours correspondent, Peter Van Zatt. Thanks for joining us, Peter. >> Hey, Natalie, how are you? >> I'm good, thank you, and this one really was riveting.

>> Absolutely, and the notion that this man in rural Wisconsin goes out, sees his dog nine on something in the driveway, comes up and checks it out and sees a human skull,

and calls police, it was just incredible.

Now Peter, this hour also features your exclusive interview with a convicted killer, and this is one of the most revealing conversations

“about a murder that I've heard here on 48 hours.”

>> Yeah, over the years, I was trying to add it up. I've talked to about 19 accused killers. None of them has ever admitted it. We've had very confrontational interviews and things, and gotten very close to getting them to admit.

But in this case, Austin Herb's Gary's son, not only admits it, but he gives us details, step by step, of how he murdered his own father and left his corpse in the woods for animals to eat, to destroy the evidence. He delivers that matter of factly, and it's chilling and yet fascinating.

>> And he gets into his reasons for doing it. We're going to get into all of that and more.

But first, a quick reminder, if you haven't watched or listened

to the episode yet, what the neighbors saw, do go check it out, and then come on back and join us for a conversation. So in 2017, after that dog dug up an unidentified human skull, police then went to the woods and Wisconsin. They found additional human remains there.

But investigators were unable to identify the victim until three years later. And that's when genetic genealogists got involved. And they were able to use DNA to trace a family tree, which then led them to identifying the victim as Gary Herb's.

Gary's wife Connie had filed a missing person's report for him. Back in 2014, Peter, what was her story back then? >> Connie said that Gary just walked out on them. Packs him clothing took $5,000 in cash, but he left his cell phone behind.

And that seemed very strange. Connie said that he left in a gray Honda vehicle that was driven by an unknown person. And Connie says that she was at home. And this is important later, she was at home when Gary left her. And only reported him missing when Gary's sister asked them to,

many months later, when there'd been a death in the family, and they wanted to notify Gary, that's when they learned that he was missing. And they urged Connie to file that report. So there was a gap in the timing for when he went missing, to then when they actually reported it.

And then when investigators were able to finally track down Gary's wife Connie,

and their adult son, Austin in 2020, they said, as you did, that Gary walked out on the family seven years earlier, and described him as being volatile and abusive. But investigators were immediately suspicious about the stories that they were telling,

“because some of the details weren't really adding up, right Peter?”

- That's absolutely right. In 2020, Connie told cops, she was at the library when he left, not at home. Remember her first story, she said, she was at home. Also in 2020, Connie said that her 40 caliber gun had been taken, but she didn't mention anything about her pistol being taken before.

And Austin's version of events changed throughout his interviews. His first police interview, he claimed a stranger picked Gary up and drove away, but in a second interview, he said the driver was a mysterious man with tattoos who was sketchy. And during a second interview, they both consented,

Austin and his mother Connie, to a polygraph test. Now, Connie didn't show any signs of deception, but Austin did. And by this point, investigators had a hunched they were lying, but there was no other evidence, so they had to let Connie and Austin go.

Even though they're instincts told them, "Cos they must have been involved in Gary's disappearance." - Well, the investigators then continue on with their work, trying to put the case together. They then go canvas the neighborhood.

And that's when they were able to get clues from the neighbors, who said he was a confrontational and retaliatory guy.

they remembered seeing Austin and Connie scrubbing the floors in the middle of the night. They were loading large garbage bags and what appeared to be a rolled up rug or a carpet into Gary's truck, yet they didn't report any of this to the police.

Why not Peter? - Yeah, and Kaya recalls that when they observed them loading up the garbage bags or husband Chad said Kaya,

“I think they finally killed him, but they were going off on a hunch,”

since they did not see the body or any blood. They thought Gary as the whole neighborhood did was a horrible man. And in some ways potentially dangerous, the neighbors also told investigators that look,

murder is never the answer and that no one deserves to be murdered,

but they also hoped that these two would not be punished in any way, because they felt Gary was just that terrible of a human being. So they speculated from the get go, then it was Connie at Austin, who killed Gary, and that he didn't just walk out on the family as Connie and Austin were telling people back then.

- Yeah, it's like that scene out of the Wizard of Oz, you know, dang gong, the witch's dead, and we couldn't all which, that's the way it was in that neighborhood. And when they were watching Austin and Connie after he had disappeared, they were so happy, they were walking around with cookies

and offering them to neighbors that they hadn't really spoken to much, because they said Gary always kept them indoors. And neighbors also saw Austin and Connie, if you're ready for this, setting up for a yard sale. And what was for sale? Well, it was men's clothing, Gary's clothing, obviously.

Men's shoes, ammo boxes, tools, Gary's favorite, right along a lawnmower. And when Kaya asked Connie where Gary was, she replied, he just didn't want to be married anymore, and he left. Yeah, but the real crack in the case was when a cadaver dog,

radar, then searched the former herbst housed in 2020, and detected the scent of human remains. Now, as a dog lover, I love that you have two dogs that really helped be the key in helping solve this case. - Yeah, the handler Dan Moldenhauer told us that radar is a German

shepherd rescue from Wisconsin. And when she detects the presence of human decomposition, she'll turn around, sit and look right at Moldenhauer. And I witnessed this myself after all these years. Radar went through the Herbst's house,

and alerted at the very spot where the new owner said that she had seen this red stain on the floor. And at the time Radar alerted, and when we were there, she did it again, which was really something to see. The dog also alerted at the basement sliding door that led outside,

which is where, of course, the neighbors had seen the two of them bringing out bags, and what appeared to be this rolled up rug, which when they were talking to each other, they thought, "I'm gosh, could there be a body inside that?" And all of the areas that Radar detected were also areas where

the luminal globe, 48 hours people know very well, you spray this chemical, luminal, it detects blood, and turn off the lights, and they put a special light that causes that chemical to glow, and all over that house it was glowing. It looked like time square, and that told them,

this was definitely the murder scene. So even though Peter, this was largely a circumstantial case back in November 2020, police then arrested Connie, and Austin for Gary Herbst's murder. And when Austin was interviewed then for the fourth time,

that is when he finally said he shot his father,

and he alleged he did it because of years of physical and psychological abuse. Now, you Peter were able to sit face to face with Austin, you spoke to him at length.

“What was it like sitting across from him, hearing all that detail?”

He was one of the most fascinating killers I have ever met, and I can call him that because he admitted to it. He was charming, articulate, intelligent, a great storyteller, and a man who's spent all this time in prison, he's really thought about this story, and he has ready-made answers

for whatever you ask. He believes the killing of his father was justified, and he told me without any emotion that if he could go back in time, and the circumstances were the same, he'd shoot him again. He tells one story during the course of the interview

that there was this bloody mess down there on the floor. We didn't put any of this in the show itself. His mother comes home, and she sees it. And they were both just matter of fact about, hmm, we need to clean this up.

But despite all of those years passing, Austin never came forward

“remember this to tell the truth about what had occurred”

inside that house until he had to. Until basically he was confronted with, we know you did this.

that wasn't in the show that I want people to hear.

“It's about his thought process leading up to his confession,”

because it suggests that there was a possible cover up here. About four and a half hours into the questioning,

you finally speak up, and you say,

"I would like to tell the truth, but I need to talk to my mom first. Why did you have to talk to her? Was that to fabricate another story?" I think it was partially that.

Part of my brain was thinking, well, I need to talk to my mom, and you know, figure out what to say to get away with this. Now, later on in my life here, I think I was looking for an excuse to tell the truth. I think I was looking for a way to confess what I had done.

Because even though I had had these years of happiness and freedom, it's a weight, it truly is a weight, having something like that, and knowing that nobody knows. - So interesting, Peter. - Yeah, to have a discussion on how to get away with this mirror, wow.

He is a contradiction all the time.

You feel sorry for him in one moment, and then others, there's this cold calculation that's going on.

“So that's what makes him so fascinating.”

- Yeah, well Austin did say on the day of the murder that Gary and Connie had gotten into some sort of argument. Connie then left, he said she went to the library. Gary then fell asleep on the couch, and that's when Austin said, he saw the gun under the skirt of the couch.

He said, that's when he sort of went into this mode where he started to fear for his life, for his mother's life, he picked up the gun, and then he shot Gary. While Gary was asleep, laying on that couch, I want to play more of your interview,

when you grilled Austin about his actions. What do you say that your life while he was sleeping there on the couch was not under imminent threat, and that you could have picked up the gun and left the house and gone to the police.

You didn't have to shoot him. This wasn't legally self-defense. This was murder. - Correct. - What do you say to all of that? - I have to refer back to again, 18 years, I've been told,

if you try to have me arrested, if you try to flee, if you try to, you know, go your own way, I will find you and kill you. - You believe you have no doubt in fact that when he woke up, he would have been the one to pick up

that firearm, he would have been the one to pull the trigger. - Absolutely, 100% kill or be killed, exactly. And it's a terrible situation to have been put in. - Kill my father or accept that my death is on its way. - The question I still have to this day,

was it kill or be killed or was it kill and will be happy the rest of our lives by eliminating this man who by many accounts was a nasty personality with a mean disposition. And he says that he suffered abuse.

He's asking others to understand that he was protecting his and his mom's lives.

Keep in mind, he always said I was my mother's protector,

and he really did believe she would be shot. But prosecutor said there's a lot of ways of protecting people these days and that Austin should have picked up the gun, gone to cops.

But we've seen, of course, in other cases, where victims of domestic abuse did all the right steps and they still ended up being killed by their abusers. Prosecutors argued, however, you can't let someone off easy for murder just because they claimed

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- With visor steuern. - Welcome back. Now, Austin Herb's claimed that he shot his father, Gary, after he alleges, Gary abused him and his mother for years. But Peter, despite all those allegations,

did police ever get any reports of abuse

“or did family members become aware of any such claims of abuse?”

- Prosecutors say there was no reported evidence of abuse. And that the first time Austin and Connie talk about abuse is after Gary's body is identified, and a murder investigation is launched. And Gary's the victim's sister, Linda, and her husband,

hung out with him many, many times before there was this sort of breakup in the family.

And they never saw any evidence of abuse,

not a bruise, not a scratch cut. And in fact, Linda's husband was a veteran cop of 30 years, trained to look for signs of abuse. And he said, whenever he saw Austin and his father, Gary, together, that it was a loving relationship,

and they had a great time together. But remember, and this is important, Linda was estranged from Gary, and hadn't seen him for years. And over time, who knows the abuse may have gotten worse?

- Yeah, and of course, the other side of that Peter, we know with domestic abuse victims that they usually suffer in silence, or they fear that if they tell someone, the abuse will just get worse for them.

“- And psychological abuse, well, you can't necessarily see it,”

that it doesn't give you bruises or a black eye. So this is what's made my head spin around during the course of this investigation, and it spins to this day. - You raised the issue with Austin.

We have a little bit more of your exchange. - Prosecutors also say that there is no what they call real evidence, that either you or your mother, wherever physically abused by Gary,

you never call police, you didn't seek help from the court system,

you didn't seek help from any social agencies. And what do you say to that? - For as many abuse cases that are reported to police for as many people who contact them and receive restraining orders against other people

due to domestic abuse and violence, I don't know the statistics, but I can guarantee you there are just as many that go unreported.

“Not everybody has the freedom or the courage”

or the ability to call the cops, to receive a restraining order. - Why didn't you ever share with a friend, my father is abusing me and my mother, we fear him.

It could find no one to back up your story. And I had attempted to, when I was younger, and it brought me either being bullied because I was a weird child or just apathy wasn't there problem.

And I mean, that I'm talking kindergarten

for a second grade as a child.

I was like, okay, nobody cares, so let's keep this to myself. - It's a compelling story. I can't tell you that it is untrue. It's just as prosecutors who are suspicious about all this,

say it only came out when their lives were on the line, and this was the only defense in the prosecutors' minds that they could put forward that in some ways would create sympathy for them and the notion that they had was that that could lead to a lesser sentence.

- You then asked Austin, how he and his mother, Connie, decided to dispose of Gary's body. I want to play a little bit more of your interview. This part didn't make it into the hour. We drive for I'd say about two, two and a half hours.

I start taking county roads. And there is a, like almost like a square of forest and then a field. And then you try to dig a hole, a grave? - Yeah.

- What happens? - In the process of doing so, cars, you know, I can still see the lights on the road of vehicles that pass by. And I saw a vehicle go by.

And then I heard the vehicle slow down. So, at that point, I got nervous and I went back to the car. I figured that wildlife would take care of the rest. What do you mean wildlife to care?

The bears, foxes, they would devour the body. The bones would be scattered. Nobody would know. - That seems a bit barbaric.

I was not in the state of mind that I ever want to revisit.

I was at the lowest I'd ever been.

“But both in my emotions and in my humanity.”

- Dump the body so animals with eat him. And he says it's so matter of factly, even now, there is no emotion behind those words. It's like he's delivering a report. It became, in a way, the perfect cover up,

you know, evidences in the stomach of beasts. And they also ended up getting rid of other evidence, according to Austin after they returned home, they cut up the couch into pieces 'cause there was blood all over the couch.

They put the pieces in plastic bags and placed them in Gary's truck. Along with the rug, that's the stuff that the neighbors believe actually saw.

And drove to a campsite where he and his mother

burned the remaining evidence. They also disposed of the gun used to kill him in a lake that was nearby. And after the murder, they did everything possible

to cover up what they had done. They lied to cops.

“And I said to him, that's what criminals do”

and he says, yeah, that is. - And did they ever tell you if they thought it all to call the cops and, you know, to claim even that they did this in self-defense? Instead of, you know, trying to cover up

what was a murder? - Yeah, I was a little surprised by this. Austin said that he and his mother didn't call the police because they believe that cops are evil.

Austin told me that he was made to feel scared that if he did call the cops, he would be locked away for life. So they lied to cops for years. - Let's talk more about Connie Herbs

because she pleaded guilty to aiding and offender and accomplished after the fact she was sentenced to two years, three months without a trial, but under Minnesota sentencing guidelines, Connie ended up serving just three months behind bars.

She was released in May of 2022. Now, in your interview with Austin Peter, you raised the prosecutor's speculation about whether Connie might have actually been the one to have shot Gary Herbs.

And that Austin, as he said,

he was always his mother's protector,

“was he perhaps the one who was then taking the fall for it?”

- Yeah, the prosecution really wanted to cross-examine Connie to challenge her about her story if she was at the house or at the library, but because she took this plea deal, she didn't go to trial and they never got that chance.

And of course, we asked Connie for an interview and she turned to stone. - Well, Austin ultimately pleaded guilty to second degree murder and in 2021, a judge sentenced him to 12 years and six months.

Now, Austin will be eligible for release in 2029. Peter, were you at all surprised by the sentence? - Yes, there's a discretion with the judge. She heard his story and people who've listened to this podcast, you get a sense of this young man, the intelligence.

You don't sense there's some demonic threatening thing in his personality. She believed his story of abuse. The prosecution honestly was flabbergasted by how light a sentence was given to both Connie and Austin.

And consider this, in addition to the murder, Connie and Austin, they'd obstructed an investigation. They lied to police officers, that's a crime. They desecrated a corpse and you would have thought those things would have been reflected in the length

of their sentences, but it was not. - But as you report, Peter, which was so fascinating is hearing from the neighbors again, who, you know, they hated dairy herpsed. And they were actually hoping that Connie and Austin

would have to serve no time. They didn't want them to do any hard time. I don't think we ever hear people being that empathetic and supportive to defendants in a case of murder. - Yeah, the neighbors, the former neighbors

are very supportive of the two of them. One said that she thinks Austin sentence is too much time and that it's wrong considering the abuse. And another neighbor felt that Austin's actions were justified. And he even offered to help him when he gets out.

He told me I might offer him a job. And they felt the Austin they got to know was not a threat to society in any way. - Well, one can hope that he's learned a lot from this experience and having the time to think about his actions.

But thank you again for great reporting and for joining us. - Thanks, Natalie. - And thank you all for listening. Now, if you like this podcast, please rate and review on Apple Podcasts or Spotify.