Treating Lindsay Clancy

of suicide and the killing of children, so please, listen or watch with care, we'll have

resources at the end of the episode.

“I'm willing to try anything, I just keep coming back to the feeling that I'm dependent”

on out of hand after my two and a half weeks of taking it daily with Benadrow, following the bad reaction to Zoloft. I feel addicted to it and I feel like I'm not being heard that that is a possibility. I feel like we are throwing all these different meds at my insomnia, when the root cause is out of hand dependence, I don't feel any of the anxious thoughts I had before, I feel

completely numb. That is one of the prosecutors, reading what Lindsay Clancy wrote to a South Shore hospital nurse, sending her a message on the patient portal, my chart.

We are nearly at the end of the third week of testimony in the case known as Commonwealth

of Massachusetts vs. Lindsay Clancy. Lindsay is currently on trial for three counts of first-degree murder, the now 36-year-old mother spent her birthday on Tuesday, August 11th in the courtroom. She's charged with killing or three young children, five-year-old Chora, three-year-old Dawson, and eight-month-old Cowland.

In our last episode on the trial, we got an inside look at the Clancy family through Lindsay's journals and from testimony of a former Nanny.

“The jury got even more with a trip known as a jury view to locations crucial to the events”

of January 24, 2023. This week, we're getting a glimpse into Lindsay's possible state of mind through the mental health providers who treated her. The prosecution continues to present evidence that they say proves that Lindsay Clancy deliberately killed her children.

They called Lindsay's psychiatrist to the stand, as well as friends of the Clancy family, and the children's preschool teachers that if fence doesn't deny that Lindsay killed her children, but says she shouldn't be held criminally responsible because she experienced post-partum psychosis that took away her ability to control her actions. A psychosis that the defense says was exacerbated by the medications she had been prescribed.

We have continually seen this argument laid out by the defense attorney Kevin Rettington, as he cross-examments the state's witnesses. What seems to be unusual in this case is that prosecutors and Lindsay's defense appear to be using some of the very same evidence to try to prove their very different arguments. It appears that this could be a very tough case for jurors.

I'm 48 hours correspondent Aaron Moriarty, and this is case by case. As you know, I've been doing this for a while, and I've watched Gabbled a Gavl coverage on many trials, and usually as the state presents its case, viewers watching the trial online are supportive of the prosecution in their comments, but there seems to be some very different with this case.

If the comments online are any indication, viewers are deeply divided.

Now we've been following this case closely and covered the second week of the trial in our

last episode. For our continuing coverage, you can check the case by case fee wherever you find your podcast. You can also watch episodes of case by case on the 48 hours YouTube channel, or by searching case by case on Paramount Plus. Returning this week is friend of the show and CBS News correspondent Chanel call, who has

been covering the trial for the network. Thanks for being with us today, Chanel, first I want to ask how you are.

“You know, I think is journalists, Erin, the story obviously is never about us.”

This one is a hard one, I think is a woman, I'm not a mother yet, but I can imagine for any mother out there who is watching this happen or covering the trial inside the courtroom. It's definitely a hard time. Well, Chanel, it's week three, and this trial has been taken to toll on everyone in the courtroom. I think most visibly Lindsay Clancy, when her children's autopsy photos were presented

as evidence. One day, two medical examiners says, you know, took the stand to speak to the injuries that were sustained by Cora, Dawson, and Calen. This was such an intense moment, I'm going to play some of that for you. You could actually hear Lindsay breaking down at one point saying, "I can't do it."

What do you mean by your furrow?

on the neck, and a furrow is simply a pattern of injury that occurs beneath it.

“It can be an imprint, it could be a pattern, or it could be more developed types of injuries”

such as bruising or abrasions. And what about injuries? Hi, Calen. Where? Will you take a break?

All right. Erin, I have chills as I'm rewatching this moment. I mean, this was obviously the most emotional that we've seen Lindsay Clancy since the trial started. She was sobbing so hard there, she was saying, "I can't do this."

There were juror members who were even crying, and a WBC reporter who was inside the courtroom actually told us that Lindsay's dad was there through all of this. He was also really visibly emotional. What happened after that was Lindsay ended up leaving the courtroom in tears, she was wheeled out, and then a judge ended up calling two recesses just to give everybody a bit

of break. Remember, they've been working these three, you know, probably mourning a night during these trials, and tension appears to be building between them. For example, last Thursday, while Calen's autopsy photos were up on the evidence screen, Lindsay Clancy, again, was audibly crying, but then hot mic captured what defense attorney

Kevin Reddington believed was someone at the prosecution table saying, "Shut her up. Let's play this." I don't want to go to the side, but I really don't want to go to the side, but I need to know what you're going to talk about before, but I want to tell you that I, you know, they got picked up on a hot mic saying, "Shut her up during the playing of the autopsy."

All right. This is not like the inmates, yeah. Chanel, can you explain what happened there?

“Yeah, I think if there's anything Aaron that's really clear so far in this trial, this”

is someone who does not hold back punches in the courtroom, and this is what was, this is what was very clear during this very spicy moment in court. You saw the prosecutors sort of looking at each other. They looked a bit confused about what this accusation was from Reddington, and then what happened after was a DA's office released a statement, and they had claimed Aaron that this

was an unknown member of the courtroom actually said, "Shut it off, not shut her up." And they were referring to those graphic images again of eight-month-old Calen that we were seeing on the evidence screen at that point in time. Now, regardless of what was actually said, this was a hot mic moment. As you know, this is pretty unusual in a courtroom, so the judge had to acknowledge this.

He talked about it. He warned everyone in court last Friday that you'll be kicked out of the trial if you speak out of turn.

It was a pretty powerful moment.

We actually have that clip. Let's play it here. There is to be no inappropriate comments or disruptive comments to be made inside of this courtroom, if anybody is found to make those, they will be immediately escorted out and barred for the balance of this.

I just want to make that real clear, and just in case you're wondering, their microphones all wrong. And so, if we hear if I get a report of that, there's going to be some serious issues and serious problems. Yeah, so like you said, Aaron, I mean, it does feel like tensions are really rising between

the prosecution and the defense here. It should now at times during this trial, it feels like it's not just Lindsey who's on trial here. Last Friday, we heard from the prosecution's witness, Lindsey psychiatrist, Dr. Jennifer Tuss.

But then on Monday, the defense attorney began his cross examination where you can really see running and taking a pro-active approach in his questioning. Let's play some of this.

You'll hear from the prosecution first.

“At any point in time, did she tell you she was planning to kill herself?”

No. At any point in time on the 23rd, did she say she was planning to kill her children? No, absolutely not. And then here that Defense Cross Examin's Dr. Tuss, asking more about some of the medications that Lindsey was prescribed, will play some of that.

You went over the side effects and zool-up, certainly, and I imagine the fear, right? Yes. Rather than one of the known side effects of zool-up, cyberflats and actions and ideation. Well, that's specifically in children, so I don't think I mentioned that because it was all of them.

Not really. Zool-up, ideation, or other side effects. This is a black box for him. He's old, a lot. A lot of people are going to say, sorry, he's right.

There is a no-pritial-dron and it's old younger than Lindsey. He just listened to my question and answered yes or no. He is there a black box warning on the zool-up. Yes? Okay.

And a black box warning is required or prescribed by what he has to be.

Probably.

And it basically warns that, especially with young people or young adults, that it may cause

psilocyte or got a bit of homicidal ideation. Yes? Yes. And you're aware that, in fact, the FDA has determined that that goes up, possibly, to a 23 or a 24 or a 25 year old.

You know that, right? I think 24 is what they say. 24. So with 24, are you suggesting as a cutoff? Are you suggesting to the jury that it drives the increases of risk of psilocyte and

“a 24 year old patient, can I increase the risk of psilocyte and a 29 or a 30 year old patient?”

It's a little bit. I don't believe this evidence that it causes that at all in individuals over 24. So, look, Aaron, I mean, we've seen this strategy from Rhetington before, right? This is someone who's not waiting around for the prosecution to rest their case before he starts his.

He seems to be using those moments of cross to try to poke holes in their story. That's his job, right?

And what he's trying to do is basically find problems in the prosecution's larger argument

here. Just saw him drill down on that strategy when it came to medications, Lensie was prescribed like Zola, for example. And speaking of those drugs like Zola, there has been a lot of testimony about the medications Lensie was taking.

There are moments in the trial where it feels possibly too granular for the jury. From the detailed discussions about drugs like adivants, Zola, and prosock, along with all their side effects to actually the difference between medication addiction and medication dependency.

“How do you think jurors are taking in this information?”

Is it helpful? Is it confusing? Is it too much? So, you know, Aaron, I can see how some of the jargon here can be a little overwhelming to the jurors because it is so nuanced, especially because they're not allowed to Google things like

you and I are during the course of this trial, right? But I do think that the detail here is important and this kind of testimony could actually sway them because Zola, for example, right?

That was the first medication that Lensie Clancy was prescribed.

And a doctor that I spoke to Aaron said, if you have any kind of underlying condition, for example, bipolar disorder, which Lensie is former psychiatric nurse practitioner, the testified that she believed Lensie may have had underlying bipolar disorder, that drug could actually push you into a manic state. So, while it is a little over-complicated, understanding each of these drugs,

why they're prescribed, what role they may or may not have played here, in her mental health in the weeks and the months that he's up to what happened in January 2023, is pretty important here. I also love Maldonado, and I'm the founder of Yaui, a member of the Conspiracy and Hantgefährdlich.

My father was a member of Shopeefei, because Shopeefei, in comparison to the other platforms that I tested, was in front of me with Ambe Nutzer. I've been thinking about everything before. All the tools for the development of Verkaufs are important

to understand why Shopee is a lawyer. Find it directly in the dashboard. Start now at your cost-in-law'sntestofshopeefei.com. Now we've seen Lensie's attorney as we've said a few times, Kevin Redding to get pretty combated with witnesses

on the stand, and he seemed especially hard on Dr. Jennifer Tufts during the cross-examination. I want to play one of their many tense exchanges here. And you know that the outcome of this case is very, very major to be outcome of Yaui's attorney.

I don't actually know that. So you understand that if, in fact, it's determined that you advertise as an expert in post-card. And in post-cardinal psychiatry, and you can have a month experience plus a residence.

“Would you consider that to be negligent for this representation?”

I do not believe that I have been negligent. Do you understand the certification? Yes. For the month, I'm going to go to post your residence. You're going to want this theory to be a fewer expert.

I don't think that's exactly the word in that I used. I think I said that it was an interest of mine. I don't believe I called myself an expert. Are you an expert in post-cardinal psychiatry?

I just think it depends on what you define an expert as.

So now he eludes to also a civil suit in that.

“And we're going to get to that in just a second, aren't we?”

But it's pretty clear the point that Rattington is trying to make for the jury, right? I mean, I think what we're seeing here is Rattington being Rattington. I mean, he's questioning whether tough knowledge and experience aligns with what she was advertising that she could offer patients like Lindsay Clancy. And so the big question here is, did Lindsay Clancy get the care she needed, right?

And this particular line of questioning obviously aims to prove to try to prove to

some of the jurors that she was failed by the system, that she was failed by medical professionals.

And in Rattington's cross examination of Dr. Tufts, he actually questions the notes that she made, the notes she didn't make, asking why shouldn't write certain things down with greater detail. And about why she prescribes certain drugs that had potentially negative side effects for Lindsay Clancy. And remember, Erin, this testimony is important outside this trial too, because Dr. Tufts has also been named in civil suits that was filed by both Lindsay and Patrick Clancy.

Yeah, let's talk a little bit about those civil suits. We're writing in the middle of a criminal trial, but there are these other suits that are pending. Lindsay has filed a medical malpractice, negligence, and personal injury suit against a number of her health care providers, including Dr. Tufts. And Dr. Tufts has also been named in a suit filed by Patrick Clancy for the wrongful death of their three children.

“So what does the testimony from this criminal trial mean for those two civil suits that are far away from happening at this point?”

Can we expect to hear from other people who were named in them? Yeah, this is a little bit of a tangled web, and all of this is going to be plain out at different times. Rebecca Jolata, who was Lindsay's psychiatric nurse practitioner at South Shore Medical, also took the stand this week, Erin, and she's also named in both of these suits. So when Readington brought up the suits during that cross examination of Tufts, I think what he was trying to do here was really just remind the jury that this is someone who's also going to be on trial.

I'll be at a civil one. Now, I do want to note that, you know, in court papers, Tufts and Jolata, they both denied Lindsay's lawsuit allegations,

and they, by the way, have also requested that the evidence be reviewed by a third party

and medical malpractice tribunal. When it comes to Patrick Clancy's lawsuit, Erin, they've also asked a judge to just pull out dismiss it. Both of those requests are pending, and you know, maybe just because those civil suits are still pending here. Lindsay, you know, seemed to be more observant during that testimony with Tufts. She actually had her glasses on, and she seemed to be paying pretty close attention.

“Chanel, I think I can restate and remind listeners and viewers that Dr. Tufts refused it,”

Rettington's line of questioning that implied that she was negligent in her treatment of Lindsay, and that both Tufts and Jolata on the stand explained the reasoning behind their decisions for Lindsay's care. But I can't help but think it cannot be easy for either one of those women to take the stand. Go back through their notes from 2022 and early 2023 for the jurors knowing that everything they did back then, it will be questioned and examined.

But you raise a really interesting point because through most of this trial, especially when evidence of her children's death was shown, Lindsay seemed to go between being overcome with emotion or she just looked away or she was looking down. But as you mentioned, when Jennifer Tufts was on this stand, Lindsay did appear to be more engaged, maybe even a little more alert. Of course, we don't know what she was thinking, but it was, it was noteworthy.

Yeah, I mean, the testimony from Tufts and Jolata remember is about herself. It's about Lindsay Clancy. But those moments when we're hearing testimony about her children, you know, I'm thinking back to the moment in the courtroom where that 911 call was played. So chilling, Lindsay was sobbing.

There were people in the courtroom who were visibly emotional. And then again, when those autopsy photos were released last week, she got emotional again. Last week, we also got to look into who Lindsay Clancy was before she killed our children through the people who are close to her. We heard from Lindsay's friends, her former father-in-law and a friend of Patrick Clancy's. And what was interesting to me, they all describe her as a loving, caring mom.

And maybe think I'm not really quite sure who, whether this helps the state or the defense. Lindsay's childhood friend was actually texting Lindsay a few days before the events of January 24, 2023.

She had shared that she was had been taking a medication that

caused her to have some dark thoughts, but that she was going to or had been leaning like tapering off that medication and was trying new ones that would remove those side effects and be more helpful and therapeutic to what she did.

“And did she tell you what those dark thoughts were?”

No. What was the tone of the conversation? Hopefully, I would categorize it. Did she ever express it at any point that she wanted to harm herself? No.

Did she ever express that she wanted to harm the children? No.

Did she ever tell you that she was hearing voices?

No. It's just so hard to make sense of the fact that this conversation that Lindsay's friend described as helpful to place just days before January 24, 2023. Yeah. And Erin, I think it really mirrors Patrick's testimony at the start of this trial.

You remember what he said that the day of the killing started as one of her best days. I mean, it really highlights that mental health challenges can change hour by hour.

“And I think that this is also something that doctors that I've been talking to have echoed as well.”

You know, there's a doctor named Katherine Burndorf. She's a psychiatrist here in New York and she treats women with PPP. And she said to me, you know, you can present as normal one, one minute. And then those hallucinations, those voices, they hit you. And then suddenly you're not living in reality anymore.

We are learning so much. And it's this fluctuation that it seems both the prosecution and the defense. Both of them are using to bolster their arguments. Um, we also heard similar stories from some of the teachers of Clancy's three young children. This testimony was particularly difficult to listen to.

Because you could tell the teachers were so fond of these kids. Here's part of the testimony from a teacher at Korra's pre-K. How was Korra as a as a preschool student? Amazing. She was wonderful.

Was she in your opinion ready for kindergarten? Yes. She now there has to be a very specific reason that the prosecutors would ask these teachers to come to court isn't there.

“I mean, I think the the point prosecutors are trying to drive home here to the jurors is to define what was lost that day.”

I mean, these were three beautiful young promising children. And they're gone now. So you have this teacher taking to the stand, getting pretty emotional talking about what it was like to care for Korra, who of course was the oldest child just five years old. She now, as you may know, the guardian calls this America's saddest murder trial.

And I think it may be three beautiful children are gone. The family of their defendant also is the family of the victims.

But whatever the jury ultimately decides in this case, I think it's really going to matter.

It could have a huge impact on how we talk about and treat maternal mental illness. And what we're learning is that Lindsey tried to get help as she struggled with postpartum mental health issues. But that there may not be enough clear cup recognizable signs that can accurately predict when a person will develop psychosis or hurt their children. I mean, Aaron, I think conversations around this are already happening. I don't know about you, but my social media feed is full of it.

All of my group chats are talking about it. I was at a restaurant the other day and I heard women talking about Dr. Toffs. I can't remember a time when a trial really took over public discourse in this way. This has become one of those cases that women everywhere talking about. Because I think it calls into question that larger issue that you just mentioned about maternal mental health.

I mean, we don't really talk about that much. And this week, I actually interviewed a woman who experienced postpartum psychosis. You know, her story had a ton of parallels to Lindsey's case, but what was different about her was thankfully. She was able to get a diagnosis and then because of that, get the correct medications in time. But a doctor that I also interviewed who treats people with PPP or postpartum psychosis said that PPP Aaron is actually not named as its own distinct category in a standard handbook that's used by mental health experts across the country.

That's sort of like the medical Bible, right? And so what that means is a lot of doctors may not know what to look for. And if you don't know what to look for, you probably don't know how to diagnose it and you probably don't know how to treat it. So this doctor told me she thinks this case is a watershed moment that's really exposing a gap in the system. I hope that that's one good thing that comes out of this.

Now we want to take this moment to say that if you or someone you know may be experiencing a mental health crisis,

“contact the 988 suicide and crisis lifeline, just call or you can text 988.”

And if you're pregnant or have just had a baby, you can dial or text the national maternal mental health hotline at 1 833 TLC, Mama, MA and we'll be back with another episode.

Another episode of Case By Case.

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