1-800-PODCAST

Hey Dan. Hi Roman. So you reached out to us because you wanted to tell us about a very specific tool that you say completely revolutionized American consumer culture and created the blueprint for the modern retail economy.

There's like big words of truth. Yeah. So when you think about how many of us shop today, it's something that you can do whenever and wherever you want. Like you could be in bed at 3am.

Hit a couple buttons on your phone. And the next morning, there's a vacuum cleaner sitting on your doorstep.

“And that shopping impulse is not bound by time or distance, right?”

Right. Well, you can trace this 24/7 shopping mentality back to the 1960s.

When AT&T introduced a revolutionary technology for commerce.

And this is something that almost everyone listening has used at some point in their lives. And if you haven't figured it out yet, Roman, I'm talking about the inward wide area telephone service, or in Watts for sure. That wasn't what I had in mind, but okay, keep going. Alright, alright.

So just in case anyone listening isn't a complete telephony nerd, this technology is more commonly known as the 800 number. 800, 800, 800 star track. Oh, yes, of course. I've used many 800 numbers in my lifetime, but I don't know if I ever really consider it a technology,

but of course it is. It's a really shoppingly understudied part of the American economy of American culture of American society. Compared to something like advertising in general or television, the shelf on the history of telephony is pretty small. That is Rick Pop. He's a historian at the University of Wisconsin, Milwaukee.

“And he says that the 800 number was originally introduced by AT&T,”

not necessarily for shopping purposes, but because they were trying to solve another problem for businesses, which was that long distance calling was really expensive for their customers.

Ordinary telephone users almost never made long distance calls.

I mean, they were so expensive. So if you were an average person, you might place a long distance call every now and then to, you know, wish your grandma in St. Louis happy birthday, but long distance calling was basically a luxury at this time.

Average consumers definitely did not want to have to pay a long distance charge for something mundane, like calling up a business to order a pair of jeans. If it was time sensitive enough, then maybe you'd call and you'd eat the costs of the long distance call, but, you know, for the most part, it was written communication.

Now, if you're a large company or retailer, fielding calls from consumers all over the country, it would make sense to take on those long distance charges for your customers. There was at least one way that customers could reach businesses toll free, and that was by collect calling.

Roman, you remember collect calling? Yes, I made a lot of collect calls. I had a lot of relatives in faraway places. In the early days, at least, you would actually dial zero, reach an operator, give them your name,

and then they would make the call and ask if they would accept the charges on the other end. And if they said yes, you got connected, and if they said no, you just got disconnected. But in the beginning, you actually had to talk to an operator. Exactly. And for the younger crowd,

I couldn't find an actual news clip showing how collect calling works, but here's a clip from Dr. Strange Love, which I think does the trick. I'm perfectly seated, operator, the president. Yes, the president of the United States.

Oh, I'm sorry, I'm going to not change. Could you make this a collect call operator?

Just a second off operator.

They wouldn't accept the call. I've got 55 cents. Yeah, that's pretty much how it worked. Right. And as that clip shows, in the 1960s, toll free calling was a really inefficient process,

right? Because you had to dial an operator, and then the charges needed to be accepted by the company. Or in the case of Dr. Strange Love, the president would have had to accept the charges. Exactly. And so AT&T,

which was the largest phone company in the world at the time, they wanted to make this easier. They wanted to streamline this whole process. And that's one reason why they introduced in Watts, aka the 800 number,

to automate that toll reversal. So no longer would a company have to go through this operator middleman. A business could just purchase an 800 number, which would automatically signal to AT&T.

Hey, don't charge our customers who are making the call, charge us the business that's receiving the call instead.

“So this was first introduced in the 1960s, you said?”

And what did the early days of the 800 number look like? Well, it was pretty experimental. You know, companies were still just trying to figure out how to use this technology profitably. And the initial results were kind of mixed.

Rick Pop told me about one of the earliest companies

It was this pretty established catalog retailer called Aldens. Now, they were a competitor of Sears,

“so they sold one of the milk catalog stuff.”

Like toys, clothes, kitchen appliances. But what Aldens tried to do was to take on this new 800 number technology and promote it as something like futuristic where they could take customer orders at light speed. They came up with this idea shortly after in Watts,

the 100 number is introduced to run this really splashy,

16 page advertisement and satire evening post to basically promote

the hell out of this 800 number that they had set up, which they called JetPhone Service. JetPhone Service, it's sleek, it's high tech. A reminder that passenger jet travel was pretty new and glamorous at the time.

And Aldens wanted to make the feeling of dialing 100 number feel just like stepping on to a sleek new jet plane. So they set up 20 different 800 lines already to receive the onslaught of incoming orders through this new 800 system.

“But Rick Pop says they never actually came.”

Only about 5% of customer orders after that ad campaign came by phone. The rest were just done the old way. Someone filled out a paper form, wrote a check, put it in an envelope, it mailed it in the same slow process that they've been doing since the dawn of mail order retail.

Yeah, the same slow supply friction shopping that had always happened.

Yeah, the cultural habit of kind of instant shopping, instant gratification. It just wasn't there. And as one ad industry writer put it at the time, the public is quote, "not used to the convenience as yet." And quote.

But that would change as we get into the 1970s, thanks in part to another technology that was gaining popularity at the time. The credit card. With only one credit card, the bank AmeriCard, you can charge almost anything, almost anywhere.

The bank AmeriCard gives you instant credit from Boston to Manaloo, from London to Bangkok. The bank AmeriCard will soon be coming to Southern Ohio, as another service. The credit card is kind of a requirement for this all to work seamlessly.

Right. Like, now you mention it. Like, calling it 1-800 number, only sort of reduces friction in one small part of the chain. Like, the credit card really makes the long distance ordering more possible.

Right. I mean, there were other ways to pay over the phone before credit cards. Like, you could have a store charge account, or you could use something called cash on delivery, where you basically pay the delivery person when the item arrives.

But credit cards made this whole process just way more convenient. And they really unlocked the 800 numbers potential for shopping.

You always want to look your best.

But the last thing you have time to do is shop. That's why there's a spigled catalog. It's filled with all the looks you love. So this is a TV ad for spigled. That was also a former mail order retailer that had previously sold things like furniture.

And they eventually pivoted to women's workware. That is quite a rebrand. Yeah, but spigled was able to transform during the 800 number era to extend past business hours into a 24/7 retail model. You know, it wanted to serve busy working parents who put the kids to bed at night

and then had to cram in their shopping before they went to sleep. And this was a really lucrative model for spigled.

“You could make a telephone call at say nine 10 o'clock at night, right?”

You could act on the impulse of wanting to buy something in these parts of the day when, you know, it just wouldn't have been conceivable to purchase something, right? You know, marketers want folks to, you know, act on their impulse. You know, when the impulse is strong and the 800 number makes that more possible. Right.

So American consumers are now finally able to give into that instant gratification of shopping at any time of the day. Yes, they are not time limited in making potentially financially ruinous decisions. And another thing that happened that really made 800 numbers take off in the 1980s was the breakup of AT&T.

As of today, the nationwide Bell telephone system dissolves into seven regional companies. The breakup of AT&T has left many people confused and prompted one musical group to record a satirical song. If you wanted a toll-free number, it was probably being issued by AT&T. Now, the company was monopoly and so those numbers were pretty expensive to get.

But after an anti-trust lawsuit in the early 80s, AT&T was forced to break into several other companies to encourage competition. And after that happened, prices for 800 numbers started to fall. And suddenly small businesses that could not afford a toll-free line before.

Imagine only the world's greatest love song. Call 1-800-818-1806 to order the ultimate love song's collection. To order your Betty Crocker-Bacon-Phil, call 1-800-765. Well, fascinating issues from two books for 1995, call 1-800-441-2400. I don't really know what a Betty Crocker-Bacon-Phil is.

But people started to buy them with 1-800 numbers. They started to buy a zoobooks and pretty much anything else you can think of. Right.

“So once the 800 number becomes more widespread, how much commerce was actually done over these toll-free lines?”

Quite a bit. By the mid-1990s, more than $130 billion worth of goods and services were sold via 800 numbers.

And that amount was nearly 2% of the entire country's GDP. Well crap. Like 2% that's as much like his military spending. Yeah, that's a lot of impulse shopping. And pretty soon, companies realized that 800 numbers were not just good for selling stuff. They were also a really good way to publicize a business itself.

There was this rush to buy the best vanity numbers for marketing purposes. And this is the point where we get to those 1-800 numbers that a lot of us know by heart today. So we're talking about phone numbers like 1-800 lawyers. Well 1-800 lawyers, right now. The call was free, the advice was free, and we stay open 24 hours, seven days a week. We're open New Year's Eve at mid-1990s. So call 1-800 lawyers.

Where they are? Right now. Love to celebrate New Year's Eve with the call to 1-800 lawyers. And then there was of course also 1-800 flowers. When you want to send your best wishes with flowers, call us and we'll make all the arrangements. 800 flowers. Just call on 8.

Before that company was called 1-800 flowers, it started as just a single brick and mortar florist in New York.

But that 800 number gave it the platform to reach millions of new customers all over the country, basically any time of the day.

“I feel like originally I thought of the 800 prefix as a kind of area code, but it's actually kind of the opposite of an area code, right?”

Because an area code signifies a specific place and a specific time zone. But when you're calling an 800 number, you have no idea where the person picking up the phone is located or what time it is for them. You just know that they are available to help you and that it's free. Yeah, that's true. The 800 prefix does kind of feel like it's removed from time and space. But the funny thing is that if you were calling an 800 number during the peak of the toll free boom,

there's actually a pretty good chance that the person picking up the phone was based in one specific place. And that was Omaha, Nebraska. Okay, let's say war. Okay, I'll all explain. So the 800 number had a huge impact on company's physical footprints. Because toll free calling made it possible to centralize customer service into like one giant call center in one place,

“rather than staffing all these local branch offices in every city across America.”

And Omaha actually became the place where many of these call centers ended up. So why was Omaha chosen for this great honor? So Omaha actually had a lot of phone capacity. It had about twice the capacity for incoming calls that you'd expect for a city of its size. And that's because after World War II, the Air Force chose Omaha as the hub for its strategic air command.

What that means is they basically said,

Okay, Omaha is going to be the place that will survive a cold war nuclear apocalypse. And they laid a lot of phone lines coming into Omaha over the course of the 1940s and 50s. So Omaha was like primed and ready for the 1,800 era ready to answer the call. And corporate executives also kind of had this belief that people from Omaha had like a mythical neutral American accent. So when call center workers in Omaha picked up the phone, they would feel familiar to most Americans, obviously a lot to unpack there, which we're not going to get for real, but you know what we can keep going.

But Omaha does quickly become this epicenter of the new toll-free economy. And by the second half of the 1980s, if you dialed an 800 number, there was a pretty good chance you'd hear something like this. When 800 live A, this is Jodi, man, help you. So this is Jodi Levalo, she's an amateur historian from Omaha, and she worked in one of these call centers back in their heyday of the mid 1980s. And she says they pretty much transformed the economy of Omaha.

There was just big call centers all across the city, and they were all hiring. It was pretty easy to get hired. There was, you know, more jobs and there were people. So overall, more than 10,000 Omahas started working in call centers, basically serving as the back end of American capitalism.

My favorite ship was like four to midnight. I like to have my days free for personal endeavors. It was air conditioned.

“We all had the little headsets, and I remember sitting together, which is people had gone to high school with that I had recruited.”

So Jodi was working in a big room with dozens of cubicles populated in part by her high school friends. And her call center answered calls on behalf of like a whole bunch of different companies and organizations. So whenever a call came in, a script would pop up on her computer screen to, you know, sell craftmatic adjustable beds or fake diamond rings for five dollars. And Jodi said there was a real discernible kind of rhythm to how these calls came in. We would be sitting there not having any calls. And all of a sudden, they would all light up and it would be everybody from like Alabama in a certain zip code.

And something had flushed, you know, on the TV like called, you get your diamond L ring. And then everybody like in that zip code would call at the same time. And then we would all get busy like at the same time, because we like, "Oh, the commercial just went on." And there were times when the calls became overwhelming, a good example of this actually came before Jodi's time back in August of 1977, just after the death of Elvis Presley.

Companies started flooding the TV with commercials selling Elvis merchandise and greatest hits albums. And so many people called the 800 number to get their piece of Elvis history, it actually crashed the system and the regional phone lines around Omaha went down. It's the power of the king and the 1800 number combined. This is unbeatable. Yeah, but she said that her favorite calls to take were for live aid.

“I don't want to date you, Roman, but you must remember live aid, right?”

Oh, yeah, for sure. Absolutely. It was big deal. Yeah, so just for anyone, Gen Z or younger, live aid was this huge televised concert and it happened in July of 1985. The concert was a fundraiser to support famine relief in Ethiopia. And the lineup was just unreal.

There was Queen, YouTube, David Bowie, Run DMC, Paul McCartney, Tina Turner, Led Zeppelin, Madonna, just like so many incredible artists.

And looking back, like this may have been the high watermark for 800 numbers, because the way that live aid raised money was by having viewers called the 800 numbers on their screens during the concert. To make your pledge, dilate 100 live aid. We've got thousands of operators ready to take your call. If the line to busy, please keep trying. The number is 800 LIV-E-A-I-D.

We guarantee every dollar given by the public will go to Africa, call now. And many of those callers were speaking directly to call center workers in Omaha, like Jodie.

“Sometimes they'd call and they'd go, can we speak to Cindy Loppers, Cindy Loppers there?”

Because they thought we were there, you know, at the stage. They have the impression that you are very connected to the event. You're very there, but we were not. We were, you know, in a call center answering phones in Omaha. And you can look at how much money was raised for those events. And good line sure of it came through our hands.

A quick note, Cindy Loppers did not actually perform at LIV-E-A-D. Because it was more effective. She had to drop out because of a health issue. But the event was pretty successful.

It ended up raising well over a hundred million dollars.

And Omaha call centers made it happen. You know, these call centers were the engine rooms that made the entire 1800 business model run. And in many ways, they created the blueprint for the modern 24/7 retail economy that we live in today. I mean, it created the blueprint, but it's been a while since I actually call it a 100 number. Yeah, that's probably an observation a lot of people have had.

The demand for 800 numbers did go downhill in the 1990s and early 2000s. And one reason for that is because of cell phones. You know, the original intent for in Watts was to make long distance calling more affordable for customers. But, you know, today your cell phone plan probably has some kind of flat rate or unlimited nationwide calling.

And so now there's basically no financial incentive for a company to get a 1-800 prefix for their customers to call.

Right, because today it's the same price for me to call someone in Oakland as to dial you in Boston like it's just it's minutes. That's just how plans work. Right. And also like with so many other industries, consolidation and outsourcing sent a whole bunch of these call center jobs overseas. Yeah.

And then, of course, there's the internet because then Amazon comes on board. Right. The internet made the 800 number pretty much obsolete as a shopping platform. And then the task of reaching a business directly that got shifted to digital channels too. Like live chat, email apps and web forms.

I also feel like calling like making a voice call to customer service is just not something.

You know, my kids do very often.

“It fills them with great anxiety to actually talk to someone on the phone.”

And they try to avoid it at all costs. Like yesterday, the oldest kid in the house was talking on the phone and it blew my mind. Like, I've only seen the music phones for TikTok and playing video games, really. Yeah. I should say, though, that there are still some call centers in Omaha. Like, if you called 1-800 via Omni to make a reservation at an Omni hotel, you might talk to someone there in Omaha.

So if you're like itching to hear the neutral quote unquote neutral American accent, you can dial the Omni hotel. Yeah. And it won't cost you a dime. So, you know, these 800 numbers, they're less popular maybe than they used to be. But many businesses still have them. They're still around. And that's because there are a lot of folks out there who rely on them.

Not everybody has high speed. That not everybody has unlimited data on their phones or a lot of people don't have the tech literacy to navigate a chatbot. So for seniors, rural communities, people with low incomes, 1-800 number is a way to offer free democratic lifelines to the companies that they need to be able to contact. That 1-800 number remains the friction free portal to get a live person online for free without having to pay a dime. This is Steven Minig, Steven worked in the telecom industry for years and now he teaches at Georgetown.

And he said, on top of that accessibility factor, another reason we do still use 1-800 numbers is that they're just more legitimate.

“Well, I think, you know, it's easy to think of them as being relics of them maybe the 1980s, the 1990s.”

But really, 1-800 numbers have evolved from just a way to kind of reach out to a company into a tool that really talks about trust and accessibility.

So that first piece, trust.

There's research showing that people just inherently prefer calling an 800 number compared to a specific area code. When you think about a consumer sees a toll-free number, it signals to them that the business is established. We have a lot of spam calls, spoofing local area codes now. And so recognized toll-free number gives people a sort of a shield of legitimacy. To be clear, there are scammers who use 800 numbers, but they are much less common and it's just harder to get away with since businesses need to register those numbers with the phone company.

The irony here is that companies still use these 800 numbers to signal trust and accessibility and the ability to talk to a human. But these days, you're increasingly likely to dial in 800 number and reach a chatbot. Yeah, that is a problem. But I'm always happy when I see 800 number. Like if I have a problem on a website and there is no number to reach, I get extremely frustrated and mad. So that makes me happy that they're still hanging on. Well, it was nice to speak to you, a real-life human and not a chatbot. Thanks for bringing this to the story down.

“I think you should actually set up a 100 line for the show, like 1-800-99-PI pod or something and then everyone can call in with a great story.”

I mean, I think we might get quite a few good story ideas from people calling in, but we would also get like a lot of cranks who just be just like, "Why don't you do more stories about fonts?" Right, and then you'd be putting the bill for all that. Exactly, I mean, just like every just pain for my own misery. Dan, this is really fun, I appreciate it. Yeah, thanks for having me. When we come back from the break, we revisit a story about the toll-free numbers ultimate form. Stay with us.

Our friend, Sean Cole, has always been impressed by lawyer hats.

I would say more totally confused by lawyer hats. I mean, I'm just like, really like, is disaster footage or your cousin wearing a judges robe? The best way to represent your practice, but I started looking into them, these lawyer hats, in particular, the sort of like fly by 90-bottom-feetary-seeming ones. This is the turning blah blah. Brown and groupin. Don't look at the associates. Low, the hammer Stanley. I'll get you lots of money for your blah blah injury. Looking both, burn, parole, victim, victim, victim, from me. Call me Cole now. Call me right now. Four, five, nine, cah!

And I fell down the well into the Byzantine crazy subterranean Wonderland of lawyer advertising regulation, which has eras to it and factions. And there's this seemingly endless civil war in lawyer nation about whether lawyers should advertise their services at all.

If you've been in an auto accident, here are a few important tips. Don't give a thing. So these are the kinds of commercials you see at three in the morning on basic cable when everything is going wrong in your life.

“You've got your sort of central casting lawyer in front of a bookshelf for whom every syllable and hand gesture is a hurdle.”

We understand this serious effect that an auto accident can have on your life, but then you have your performers.

I'm really injured, size matters. The bigger your check, the better. I'm low, the hammer Stanley. I love low, the hammer Stanley. There are images of airborne cars and golfed inflanes playing behind him right now. I don't stop hammering until the size of your check satisfies you. Call me and let's talk about size. Low, the hammer Stanley. There's actually more than one hammer in this tool bench. I'm Jim Avenue, the Texas Hammer. I avenge injustice for the injured, the mistreated and the ignored.

There's even more than one hammer named Jim. I'm Jim, the hammer, the hero. I swear to God, I thought this one was a joke. I cannot rip out the hearts of those who hurt you. I cannot hand you their severed hand.

But I can hunt them down and settle the score of squeeze them for every dime I can.

So those are the crusaders. I mean, it's still all about money, but they have a Captain America protector quality about them. In a few of these things, it's just pure unfettered crassness. I was in pain, and I caused Spencer and Associates, and he changed my pain to right. At which point money falls all over her body. Usually only happens in the strip club. The pain to rain, alchemical process, is fundamental to lawyer television.

Your injury is a commodity. And apparently, caching in is a cinch. Call me. It's just that. Call me. It's just that easy.

Call 1-877. See, bro.

“And, you know, look, I granted these things are almost majestically terrible, right?”

This is Bob Garfield, co-host of the NPR, WNYC show on the media. For 25 years, he was the ad critic for advertising age magazine. There is no attempt for subtlety. It is the hard sell. There have been a few of these lawyers over the years who have tried to be funny.

You know, a lot of personal injury lawyers sometimes, in order to cast themselves in their own ads, we'll do some sort of, you know, nominally comic scenario that they're star of. How can you tell when a lawyer is lying? When his lips are moving, that is funny and a lawyer jokes are great. But let's get serious.

But basically, you know, the keywords are call now.

Call the rely on group now. Because, like, obviously, the cynical view is like, hear her some sharp. All the gold water law firm now. If you or a loved one has had a depue hit replacement, call the gold water law firm right now. You know, I have a certain graduate respect having looked over and over and over for 25 years.

It extremely artful executions of fairly obscure creative ideas. I am so delighted to see somebody say, I got something to sell. I think you should buy it, call now. You know, honest, it's honest. Now, sometimes of dubious legality, because the ads themselves frequently skirt the legality of solicitation.

Different jurisdictions have different rules. This is what I was talking about in the beginning. Rules regarding what you can and can't say in an ad. Who can appear in your ad and what they're allowed to say about you. All of that is regulated to tighter elucid degrees by each individual state bar association and state Supreme Court.

Because as proven by history, lawyers will tout themselves exactly as loudly as they're allowed to. See, back in the 19th century, you'd see ads for attorneys on the front page of newspapers alongside ads for doctors and Saddle and Harness Manufacturers. But in 1908, the American Bar Association put in new rules saying all instances of self-lawdation.

“That's what they called it self-lawdation, defy the traditions and lower the tone of our high calling and our intolerable business guards are okay.”

That ban lasted about 70 years. And then in 1976, the law clinic of Bates and Osteen ran one little classified in the Arizona Republic saying,

Legal services at very reasonable fees, divorce adoption bankruptcy, but they did it.

“And in short, the Arizona Bar got mad and suspended the two lawyers.”

Bates and Osteen appealed all the way to the U.S. Supreme Court. And in the now infamous Bates versus State Bar of Arizona, the court ruled that lawyers have the same freedom of speech as everybody else. Gotta go, go, go. Lawyers can advertise. Then all hell broke loose. That pretty much opened up the floodgates.

This is Elizabeth Tarbert, the ethics counsel for the Florida Bar. She runs the department that regulates lawyer advertising there. There was kind of a wild, wild west situation where lawyers were advertising anyway they wanted because there weren't regulations. Where there had been just flat out prohibitions.

So Florida actually had a couple of different blue ribbon commissions and they adopted the first set of rules.

And because Bar leadership was very concerned about what statements lawyers were making and their advertisements to try to get clients. Elizabeth Tarbert wasn't with the bar back then, so she doesn't know what those ads looked like. But an attorney I talked to named Steve Miller does. When I first started practicing, he's a divorce lawyer with offices in Florida and Massachusetts. I worked for a woman in Florida doing personal injury work.

And she was one of, I once used she was one of the first on TV, but she did a lot of TV advertising. And her ad went something like this. You hear a car crash, you hear a car crash, see here the sirens and then they threw a doll, baby doll into the picture.

“I'll never forget, I won't say her name, but it was just the worst thing that I ever seen.”

And so I'm sure that has something to do with the bar coming in and saying, "Look, you can't do music, you can't do dramatization, can't have your clients come on, you can't do that stuff."

It actually goes way beyond that. Florida has some of the strictest guidelines in the country for these ads. For instance, testimonials, if a lawyer writes the testimonial him or herself that would be misleading, that's not the person's actual experience. If it's not the person's actual experience with a lawyer, they're not qualified to judge the lawyer and then those things would be misleading. Now, think of how many lawyer commercials you've seen that used testimonials.

The insurance company kept asking me to hurry up and sign a release. I was thinking, what's the rush? Of course they wanted Jason to sign quickly. Of course, some of them are written by the attorneys, or they're advertising consultants. Oftentimes the actual client doesn't even appear in the ad.

I'm Jason Smith. He is not Jason Smith. He's an actor performing a testimonial, which is also prohibited in Florida. Nor are you allowed in Florida to have actors playing authority figures, like cops and judges, saying how great the lawyer is. Nor are you allowed to have actual cops and judges saying how great the lawyer is.

People inherently respond to authority figures, whether they're real or not. So, we prohibit their use in advertisements. Does Robert Vaughn fall under that category? I wouldn't consider Robert Vaughn an authority figure. He's an actor, but he would fall within the prohibition in the same role about using the voice or image of a celebrity. Again, kind of pervasive in other states.

Tell the insurance companies you mean business. Tell them you've hired Jacobian Myers. They go after your rights piece by piece by piece until justice has been served. Well, they'll be in court. Call Jacobian Myers. Elizabeth Tarbert says the rules are meant to protect the public, that people should pick a lawyer based on what she calls objective selection criteria, rather than fancy pants promises and sound effects. If you break the rules, the penalties are not really that dramatic.

The worst that might happen is that you'll get what's known as a public reprimand. The bar sends out a press release, so your reputation is kind of marred, but it's not like you're going to be disbored. So that's Florida. There are a few other states that are strict Iowa and Texas, weirdly, given that it's home to one of the hammers. Insurance companies rarely play fair and hand over a fair award. They must be hammered in hammers before they see the light. I'm Jim. Massachusetts and Connecticut are still pretty wild Westy.

“And if you're a national firm operating in a bunch of jurisdictions, you have to comply with multiple sets of rules.”

That's what Lucien Perra has to deal with. He's a lawyer with Adams and Reese and Memphis. And among other things, he advises nationwide firms on their advertising. And sometimes he'll be looking over the disclaimer rules, for example, and he'll be like, "Okay. State A says you got to say this, but State B, if I say what State A says, State B is going to say, "Well, I can't say exactly that." So I got to weave it together somehow. It is a marass.

It does what it's, I think, in my opinion, intended to do, which is it deters

Now, Lucien State, Tennessee, is pretty loose.

“In fact, it's been widely reported of late as the state where you'll see lawyer ads featuring space aliens,”

giant robots, and both dogs and cars that can talk. Guys, come here. Huh? All the cars in town are talking about you talking cars. They say you're the go-to guys for car rig.

And even now, more than 35 years later, Lucien says there's a cohort of lawyers who will see an ad like that and say, "Look what baits versus state bar of Arizona, half-raught." There are many lawyers today, many lawyers today, who feel that much that is wrong with the profession today. If not all, that is wrong with the profession today, dates from dates. That lawyer advertising turned us from a profession into a business.

And they just think it's undignified for lawyers to be on television, pitching their services generally, much less talking to dogs or aliens. That just thinks that demeans the profession. And you don't have to look too far down the road in Tennessee to find one of those lawyers. Namely, Matt Harden, a personal injury attorney in Nashville with his own practice.

I'm sorry, I've got a big bunch on this.

The first half of it's about the history of discreet advertising.

Last year, he and the Tennessee Association for Justice, which is a group of plaintiffs lawyers, filed two petitions to the state Supreme Court asking them to change the advertising rules in Tennessee so that they essentially look more like the ones in Florida. There's a public comment period, some first amendment advocates got involved, and ultimately, the court said no. But Matt is determined to keep trying.

And I asked him, and so do you think Bates was the sort of the beginning of the end,

“like the big bang that created the downfall of the sort of stature of lawyers?”

I do, I mean, if you look in the, you know, in our history in the 50s and 60s, you had lawyers being seen as a proponents of justice. You know, you have things as far back as, like, to kill a mockingbird. But those, what I would call the Halsian days, a positive public perception of attorney, to be long gone, what most people see, unfortunately, is this unsavory advertising,

and they basically are paying in the lawyers on that advertising. But my biggest concern about this is how it affects the jury pool, and makes people think that you're just out for easy money. That is, if people start thinking plaintiffs and their attorneys are just out for easy money, they might get cynical about the process.

And cynical people become cynical jurors, and no one gets a fair trial anymore. That's the calculus. And by the way, Matt's not opposed to advertising writ large. I advertise myself. Though not on TV.

By advertising movie theaters. You advertise a movie theaters? Other? And online. His ads sound like this.

What to do after an accident? Call Matt Harden Law, your experienced personal injury law firm. Our personal injury attorney. Very different tone. And visually, too, they're just images of gables and ionic columns,

and Matt in this ad, which makes you wonder if maybe there's not something more basic about his objections to the dog and robot commercials. Is it just that you think the ads aren't classy? No. I don't think it's up to me or anyone else to make a judgment over what the class of an ad is.

But do you think they're not classy? I don't have an opinion on that one way or another. I mean, that's not really what I'm trying to do. Really?

“Because I think all of us have an opinion on that one way or the other.”

I believe some people actually turned off by that type of advertising, but I don't think they would do it if it didn't work. You think it works? Absolutely, it does. They do work, yes.

They do work for those that they appeal to. This is loll the hammer Stanley. I am the hammer. They are the nails. Wow.

It's just, it's just like watching YouTube. I don't think I mentioned loll the hammer Stanley practices in Norfolk, Virginia. He's been a lawyer for more than 30 years. And truthfully, I was a little nervous about asking him what the hell was up with his ads. But he answered the question before I even got to it.

The ads are not sophisticated. I'm glad that you know that.

If I saw my ad, me personally, I would never call me.

Really? Yes, the ads do not appeal to me. They are over the top. And somebody would consider them tasteless. But they are not designed to appeal to people like me who listen to NPR and watch TVS.

They are designed to appeal to people who watch shows like Jerry Springer or things like that. Or good and fine. And decent people.

And they bottle always going to fight for them.

“And that's what those ads are designed to appeal to.”

It sounds a little like a class distinction. Well, it may be considered a class distinction. If you are an educated person who's a PhD or a banker or you don't need to get your lawyer from an ad, you have friends, you know somebody.

You have a family lawyer, you go to them.

This design for hard work in blue collar, bus driver, the little coach, somebody who's heard. And doesn't know where to turn, doesn't have a lawyer. And it's afraid of lawyers and watch somebody's going to fight for them.

“That's what they are designed to appeal to.”

And if that's true, there are almost certainly people in Florida whom those ads would appeal to.

And so finally, I asked Elizabeth Tarbert at the Florida Bar.

If I called myself the hammer and screamed and had flaming blazing behind me, would that be okay there? I think there are aspects of that that are not objectively verifiable, which is required under our rules. Mm-hmm. That you hammer them.

That's a subjective term. Right. I can't prove that I hammer.

“That story was produced back in 2014 by Sean the Hammer Cole, a version of it originally aired on the podcast "Bife of the Law" and was edited by Julia Barton.”

99% of visible was reported this week by Daniel Accommon and edited by Vivienne Lay. Makes by Martin Gonzalez, music by Swanria, fact checkered by Sonna Avakio. Kathy 2 is our executive producer, Kurt Colstett is the digital director, Selena Hall is our senior editor. The rest of the team includes Chris Brube, Jason Delion, and hit Fitzgerald. Christopher Johnson, Bosch Madon, Joe Rosenberg, Kelly Prime,

Jacob Medina Gleason, talent and range stradly and me, Roman Morris. The 99% of his below-go was created by Stefan Lawrence. We are part of the serious XMP podcast family, now headquartered six blocks north in the Pandora building. In beautiful. Uptown, Oakland, California.

You can find us on all the usual social media sites as well as our own discord server. There's a link to that as well as every past episode of 99PI at 99PI.org. [Music]