Ask Your Doctor About

- Roman, what prescription drugs do you take?

- Do you take your nevex? - This is Sean Cole, everybody.

“He's an old friend of mine, a friend of the show.”

- Or extensor, do you take extensor? - I don't think I wanted to discuss, you know, lady. - Brzeia Flex? - What is going on? - Ask your doctor.

- Ask your doctor about X-Denvy. - Ask your doctor about X-Denvy. - Ask about Rapatha. - Ask about Newcala. - Ask your doctor about Kepler.

- Hope see more of the light inside of me. - Okay, Sean, why are we talking about this? - So the reason I'm sitting here with you today can pretty much be boiled down to the signed Felden question, what is the deal with pharmaceutical brand names?

It's like watching TV in the middle of the day can make you feel like you've had a partial stroke that scrambled half the words on the screen, which is ironic considering that that's probably

what some of the drugs they're advertising are supposed to prevent.

- Once monthly Abglace is a treatment that can be used with or without topicals. - DuPixion can help you stay ahead of X-Denvy. - Ingressa, then Zellix. - Co-benefit, first-aid.

- Co-plata, co-baxa, Cabinova. - Jardians. - Maybe we don't need a pill for everything. - You can say that again, Keenan Thompson. - Well, for managing weight, there's will go.

The first and only joke that Keenan did a real pharmaceutical ad given that he was also in this Saturday night, live sketch about a fake hormone supplement for women. ♪ There's a new drug for Gauze over four ♪ ♪ It's all for JJ ♪

- I think that's the journey. - Whatever, just dance. (laughing) - So we all laugh about these drugs, but the question becomes, why do they all sound

like Star Trek villains? Is that by design? Is it necessary for some reason?

“Is it simply wrong-headed on the part of the marketers?”

- I mean, those are a lot of questions, but do you have some answers for this questions? - Yes, I got to the bottom of it. And I'll just say, underneath the noisiness of the names,

he's not just a logic that you'd never guess

is an operation. In a lot of cases, I know how this is going to sound. An actual poetry going on that I never imagined. And that I now want everybody else to be thinking about the next time they see one of those ads.

- That's a big claim when you're talking about - My name's a drug. - And okay, but just hear me out, we'll see what you think of the end, but just to start at the beginning.

- Hello, Scott? - Yes, Sean. - Hi, how are you? - This is Scott Pier Grossie, who is in practically every article you read about pharmaceutical brand names.

And there's a reason for that. He's the head of creative at the Brand Institute, which is kind of a clearing house. They help name more than 75% of the new drugs on the market in a given year.

- 75%, one company. - Yep, at least according to them.

“75% of both brand names and generic names too,”

which are even longer and wider sounding, as you know. They have a separate department for generics, or non-prepriector. They get upset when you say generics, non-prepriector in names.

But we are focusing on the brand names, the brand Institute, names. - Can I also respectfully correct you and say it's just brand Institute? - I'm sorry, I'm sorry, yes.

Luzed of the, it's cleaner. - That's right, that's right. Scott's been at Brand Institute for more than 20 years. And I just asked him to, you know, take me through the process from the beginning,

like where do they even start aiming a drug? - Have you ever seen the movie Brain Candy? - No. - Should I? - You should see it, absolutely.

This is the kids in the hall movie. - That's kids in the hall, those sketch comedy troop from Canada. - And Brain Candy was about a new anti-depressant drug that came to market.

- Hmm. - So, but they have a scene where the marketing guy comes into the board room. And he tells the story of how he thought of the name. - Okay, I was driving around last night in my 62,000-dollar car.

And I'm trying to think of a name for the drug. And suddenly it hit me. - The name? - No, a bird hit my windshield. - Oh, that happened.

I got depressed. - Not your Cisco. - Yeah, even me. But as soon as I got depressed, I got underpressed. 'Cause as I was cleaning the gleam and guts of that bird

off my windshield, I thought of the name for the drug. - And he says, gleam and axe. (audience applauding) And everyone does like a slow applause.

And it's the opposite of how it actually works. (laughing) - But actually works is much more rigorous in time consuming. They meet with the client, the advisor, amgen and whomever kind of get a sense

of what they're thinking. And from there, Brain Institute assigns a small team to come up with an initial list of like three to 500 ideas on their own. - 500 names.

That's a lot of Brain Storming for names that will not get used. Amazing. - It is. And at that point, the job is pretty much just figuring out which ones are actually viable and good enough

to test out with the client. - It's funny because clients will say,

and we'll call this as a win. And then we present a slide, let's say, of 25. And we'll be lucky if we get to retain two of them. - Oh, really. They are all solely easy to pronounce.

And the client just like, "Man, I just don't like it." And I'm like, "But that's what you ask for."

“Just remember that, that's what you ask for.”

- 'Cause why don't they like those ones? Like what is it when they say now? - It can't say it, they can't say it as the product. It doesn't fit.

- And how are they generating these ideas in the first place?

Like when they're coming up with all these ideas, where are the ideas coming from? - Well, historically, how it worked was, everybody was just sort of foraging on nervously, anywhere and everywhere, for different combinations

of words and letters, magazines, foreign language dictionaries, another company I read about, so not Brandon's too, but a competitor. So they sometimes leave through cowboy dictionaries and surfer dictionaries.

- What's a cowboy dictionary? - I looked it up, there's one from 1968 called Western Words by Ramon F. Edom. - I see. A little hoarse is soon curried.

(laughing) - I'll take your word for it. - Ramon Institute is also started using an AI platform called Brandy Cute that's just helping out

with the initial phase of the process.

Scott says a lot of the work is still done by humans. - You might explore types of names like palindromes or anagrams, one of the more health-lexure sizes we do is we try to educate the client to stay, like if it's on the cover of Time Magazine, for example,

what would the headline say? And then we actually might even try to mold that expression into a name. - Hang on, so you would try to take that sentence. - Yeah, so let's say a drug

alters your course in life, alta course. So that name is said. - I want a drug that does that by the way. (laughing) If I could take alta course, boy, oh boy.

- Alta course. - Or they could look at the drug and say,

“okay, what is the hopeful outcome of taking this thing?”

And then explore that from a bunch of different angles.

So for example, sleep aids, they could say,

okay, this is a drug that helps you stay asleep through the night, or this is a drug that leaves you feeling refreshed in the morning. Same section of the drug store, two different ways of looking at it.

So for example, there's loonesta drug that Scott's company named. - The reason loonesta works is because of the looner imagery. The suffix, asda, has a inference of restorative sleep as in sea, asda.

- Ah, okay, very cool. - See what they're doing there. - But really, the looners, what anchored it so night time sleep. Within the category, you have ambient,

what is ambient, it's ambient, good morning. So that's the good morning, that's the good morning. Then you have newer products like bell somra. That's a beautiful night sleep with bell somra. bell somr somnus, which is sleep and Latin.

- Then there's other sources of little name building blocks.

“They might grab a few letters from the generic name of the drug”

with the active ingredient. For example, buepropion hydrochloride, that's the active ingredient in the antidepressant well-butrin. And then sometimes the name is derived from the science of how the drug works.

A lot of cancer drugs are like that, Scott says, 'cause the audience is really more the doctor than the patient in those cases. So oftentimes, we want to highlight what's unique about that product

from a scientific standpoint, 'cause that'll resonate with oncologists. And about half of new cancer therapies are derived from the mechanism of action. So this science spying the drug.

- That is what the drug is actually doing into what part of you. So there's just one drug called Indeltra. It's IMD-E-L-L-T-R-A. - Indeltra is a D-L-L-3 immunotherapy.

- Well, well, of course. - I mean, everybody knows about that. So the double-ells and the drug suggesting three is so intentional to represent the mechanism of action of the product quite elegantly.

- And if Scott here grocery sounds ever so slightly defensive about the name Indeltra, it's because another drug name we're going to talk to did not agree with him. - It satisfies a meaning, but look how it looks

and that doesn't really look that good. Indeltra, it's hard even to say. - Okay, so who's this? - I am Arlene Tech. I have worked in brand naming for 30 plus years.

Most of those naming pharmaceuticals. - Arlene is kind of a legend in pharmaceutical branding. And once I learned a little bit about her in her background, it couldn't not reach out to her to get her perspective on how prescription drugs get their names.

- And does she sort of predate the brand institute style of naming? - Yeah, she's like a OG. And unlike brand institute with its teams of 15 people

where people tend to tackle projects on their own. And just to give you another picture of how drug names are invented, there's this one drug she was assigned back in 1992 that was for benign prosthetic hyperplasia

in large prostate basically, which makes it difficult to pee.

In trying to figure out what's named this drug, Arlene ran a focus group with a bunch of urologists. And this one doctor in particular said something that stuck with her. - It was at the end of the group.

And I asked the doctor what's it like when the drug worked and the guy got well. And the doctor said visualizes strong stream. - Strong stream of urine. - Yeah.

- So when I was home and I was writing the notes up, I thought to myself, well, a strong stream that would be vigorous. And the first thing I could think of that was streamed like that was Niagara.

- No. - Yes. - So I put vigorous plus Niagara equals Niagara. - Oh my God. - I know.

I met the woman who named Viacra. She gave me her pen. I'm going to keep it forever and ever. (laughs) - But wait a second.

- But Viacra is for erectile dysfunction, not like the enlarged prostate that makes it hard for you to pee, so what is that about? - It is. And this is where this naming business gets even more complicated.

And super interesting trick of the industry,

just to digress here for a second.

So our link came up with the name Viacra for the stroke to treat prostate enlargement. But for a lot of complicated reasons, they didn't end up using the name Viacra for that benign prosthetic hyperplasia drug.

And as far as our link knows, they just held on to the name. It's true that companies can bank names in certain circumstances and use them later when a better fit comes along.

And around that same time, Pfizer was testing a completely different drug, which had nothing to do with the prostate, that drug was supposed to treat and ginum, which is chest pain due to a hard condition.

- And the test was very successful. Everybody was complying with it. And some of the guys came back and asked for more. - Because, well, it didn't work very well for Angelina. It did have this crazy side effect.

“I think the medical term for it is lumpy trousers.”

(laughing) - And so they thought, well, that would be a much better way to selfless drug, if it did that. And they tried to do the whole thing right. They tried to have a focus group.

A focus group to name their new miracle, the reaction drug. - And the names that came up just weren't that good is they were either too overtly sexual. And then some of the names were just not male enough. - If you want to sell a drug to treaty,

it should have a pretty masculine name. And they just so happened to have the one that Arlene thought up, stored away. So they went with that. - So how does it feel to have named Viagra?

- Different. - Different than having not named Viagra.

- Well, it's my husband always.

He used to say, "I married to the Viagra woman." (laughing) - That could mean a lot of things. - Yes, it could, well, I have also told people that I have a one-word resume.

- You know, what's funny about that story is that it really is a lot more like that scene in the kids in the hall movie, where the guy comes up with gleaming acts. I mean, she was just like trying to

think of a name for a drug. And then this thing happened in a made or think of another thing and it led her to the name Viagra. - It really is much more like that, yeah.

“- So why can't all drugs have that same approachability?”

Like Viagra is a very approachable name. Lou Nesta is an approachable name. But why aren't they still? Like when you started naming all these things, like, "Skrillex" or something,

you know, like, "Skrillex." - Is it DJ? (laughing) - I think you mean Skyrisi. - Okay, Skyrisi.

And, you know, we'll go V, whatever. Like, how do we get to there? - Okay, so just to start back in time bit, even farther back from Manarling, named Viagra. So the big bang of pharmaceutical naming

has Scott Pyrogrosi calls it, comes in 1988 with the introduction of Prozac. That was the first real blockbuster name. It's short, punchy, and it was all about marketing. I was supposed to even indicating what the drug did.

It was what they now call a blank canvas or empty vessel type name. Obviously, called the public attention, became a household word. The guy who named it, David Wood, is now in the medical advertising hall of fame.

(laughing) - There's actually a medical advertising hall of fame. - Of course, there's a medical advertising hall of fame. - Nice. - David Wood died in 2007.

And our lien was really a Prozac of his. She worked really closely with him.

“- Basically, I think he was trying to do a name”

that was semi-abstract. Everybody knew that the word "pro" meant something positive.

And the ZAC was simply a syllable that woke people up.

- Zap, Zang, Zip. - Well, the K sound on the end, ZAC had a sharpness to it. A sharp sound might indicate something that was more targeted. - So that year, 1988, only 17 drugs were approved by the FDA for therapeutic use.

So 17 prescription drugs that needed brand names. And that number has just trended up word over the years. So last year, almost 15 new drugs hit the market. Number of letters in the alphabet, still 26.

“- And why are there so many more drugs being approved now?”

- Just sheer growth in the industry for one thing, more and more drugs being developed, especially with cancer. It was a big push on that front. And then a few other reasons that believe me

are too wonky even for this show. I'm gonna try not to take that personally. - Please don't. Meanwhile, the scots in the early into the world are trying to accomplish something that in this climate,

just gets harder and harder. I mean, in every case, they want to come up with something totally new, if they can manage it. A singularly unique name is the goal. Why?

Trade Markability for one thing. And just plain marketability. They want the product to stand out. But the main factor driving this ceaseless crusade for nominal innovation, Roman, is the FDA.

- And so why does the FDA do this? Like, what are the rules? - So two big things to focus on here. Number one, what a drug seems to be promising. The FDA doesn't want a name to sound like,

oh, this is some miracle drug. So no big claims in the name. - I'm sure you're familiar with Flowmax. - Sure. - I don't remember what it does.

- Flowmax is for BPH that is benign prosthetic hyperplasia. That's same in large prostate condition

that was the very first inspiration

for the name Viagra. - So maximum flow, so flow max. - Simple, right? Simple. So that name was approved in the late 90s I believe.

And that name is an example of one that probably today would be more challenged. - Oh. - Because, and this is me speculating, I have no data to say this,

but based on the guidance, you know, what is maximum flow, right? What is that? - I know how to determine maximum flow. Go ahead. - Pitching contest.

- Oh, Jesus, sorry.

“- Anyway, that's why Scott, when he talks about these drugs”

is these pretty circumstance, like he'll be like, he'll name a drug and then be like, it comes from this. I mean, if you were potentially able to extrapolate that connotation, 'cause nobody wants to come right on

and say like, you know, take, you'll definitely sleep through the night at all. (laughing) - On sale, you know, they want some plausible liability. Another thing, the FDA, very much wants to avoid,

is christening a new drug with a name that sounds or even looks too much like a drug that's already out there, which is a big deal in terms of our actual physical safety. Medication errors kill people. And sometimes it's because of that look-alike sound

to like problem. And there's this sort of poster case that people point to regarding that kind of mix up. - There were two drugs. One was called Lasix, L-A-S-I-X,

which I believe was a diorotic. - Mm-hmm. - And the other one was called Losec, L-O-S-E-C, which helped people with ulcers and different types of heartburn. - In short, this one patient was admitted to the hospital.

This is like the late '80s early '90s. That a lot of health issues, including an ulcer, for which the doctor prescribed Losec. But the attending nurse gave her Lasix

and the patient ultimately died.

So the FDA got involved and said, "You know, you got to change one of these names." And somehow it was decided that Losec would be the one to change. - So Losec came to David Wood and said,

"We need this help." And David Wood realized that there was already a lot of investment in the name Losec. Doctors all knew it. And if there was too much change going on,

doctors wouldn't recognize it might not prescribe it. The company would lose sales. So what he did was he left Losec the same and added a three-letter prefix. It became Pry Losec.

- Oh. - Yeah, you've heard a Pry Losec. - Yeah, yeah. - It's a better name, I think. - Yeah, I think so too.

Yeah, Pry Losec works. I remember it.

“And I don't remember a lot of drug names.”

- Yeah, problem being that, then Pry Losec started to become confused with Pry Losec. - Oh, yeah, true story. - Maybe it's why I like it because it's not Pry Losec. - Also to point out, with the Losec and Losec example,

the doctor had written a prescription by hand.

by honing in on the physical shape of the name.

It has to have ascending and descending letters. If it doesn't have that, it doesn't get approved. - It has to have ascending and descending letters because other than that, the silhouette of the name would be flat.

- Describe this, the silhouette of a name. - So if you picture a city skyline reflected in a river,

“that you think of that's what the name looks like, right?”

There's skyscrapers and a little below warehouses. And there's all built out of lowercase letters. And you have letters that stick up like L.T. and H. letters that stick down like PQ and G. - And letters that are flat, you know, like A, E, S.

So that's what we think. And if that's silhouette was just a flat thing like that, that's easily confused. There are too many other flat things like that.

So you have to have, you know,

the silhouette would have something that goes up someplace, something that goes down someplace, you know, and then you get a different perceptible silhouette. - Now, strictly speaking, there are names that get through without sticky up sticky down letters,

but it is true that variation helps a lot in terms of approval. Which when you think about it is another huge reason why the names are so kooky. If you want to cus sound,

sure you could use a lowercase C there, but you could also use a lowercase Q, which has the tail that sticks down. Or instead of letter I, you could use a lowercase Y. Scott really likes a lowercase Y.

- Why is the only vowel that has a visually differentiating quality to it? A, E, I, O, U, all exist in the same visual plane, and here comes Y with that downstroke quality to it.

“So now you're seeing tripped here, I believe,”

it was last year approval, T, R, Y, P, T, Y, R. That's like a double whammy differentiation visually. So yes, 100% give me a big, give me a K, give me a Z, give me an X. - What's that spell?

- But because sugar sucks. - Yes, and that name was approved last year also. So putting this all together again, no big claims, no look alike sound alike names, a stricter enforcement of those rules,

which means the goal now is to come up with something completely novel in an age where there are more and more new drugs coming out all the time. And this, I think, is where the artistry of drug naming really comes to life.

But let's talk about that after this break. - Sounds good. - Okay, we are back. And Sean, one of the things that I've been wondering for the sort of scots in our leans of the world,

do they really know how much people are scratching their heads and maybe laughing at these funny sounding names that they've come up with? - They do, okay. - They do.

I talked about that a lot with Scott. I even went down the list of last year's approved names with him and was like, you know, this one's crazy. And these are drugs that brand institute named. And like, are you aware that people are comparing these names

to sci-fi characters? - That is absolutely something that we hear, but understand that where we are is the result of they're being 26 letters in the alphabet, right? And you have to combine them in a way

that is distinctive and differentiating and contending with this path to a global regulatory approval for the same name across the world. And this is oftentimes the type of names that come out of that process.

“So that's why I don't get too offended when people say,”

"Oh, you know, they joke about drug names." It's like, well, I completely get it. It's like a couple of gut punches, but then you get over it, right? 'Cause as a creative, you want your work to be loaded

and everyone to love it. And you do get names that come out and they're like instant heads. They instantly, people love saying them and then you get other ones where nobody wants to say it.

But that's all just part of the job. - And it is a job. - But like I was saying at the beginning, there was also this distinct artistic and even poetic aspect to it

that I wasn't expecting. And that I think is apparent in some of the things we've talked about already, but especially as regards our lean, because our lean, as well as inventing drug names,

writes high coups. (laughs) - Oh, she's a poet. - She's a poet. - As are you, you're a poet.

- SMI.

And at first, she insisted, insisted,

that her drug naming and her high-coding have nothing to do with each other. But finally, she considered that yes, in both pursuits, the sound of the thing is really important, the tonality.

when you're writing them, she says.

“And you should do the same with a drug name.”

- It has to feel like it fits in your mouth. It has to flow in conversation. So when you tell somebody, "I am taking Viagua," that's an easy sentence to say. Not awkward.

It's not like you're gonna try to say, "I am taking in Delta." - Cah, she really hates the name and Delta. - She really does. - What I would do is I would sort of sing them to myself.

- Sing them? - Sure. If a name can sing for you, if it's easily singable, that means it's easily pronounceable.

- They're sing literally, sing. - Well, not like operatic. (laughs) But, two jails, two jails. - Is that a real drug name that she's singing to, Jail?

- It's a, yeah, it's an insulin shot for diabetics. And it's with two jails that I think you can really see the poetical nature

“of Arlene's thinking when she sits down to name a drug.”

- So explain what you mean. - So the thing about two jails is that it's longer lasting than a similar drug that came before it. Instead of 24 hours, it's effective for like 30 hours,

give or take. And as Arlene and her team were brainstorming, they developed this, they do this sometimes. They developed a prompt. They call it a platform.

It's prompt to riff off of. And the prompt was your friend for life. And from there, Arlene unspooled this whole story in her head, a kind of romantic story about young people, young adults,

just beginning their adult lives. - Imagine, especially when they're going out to working in their first jobs and they're meeting new people,

there's always the idea of after work,

the spontaneous sexual flirtation. - But if you're worried about having

“to take your next insulin shot, you can't be spontaneous.”

And last, again, that shot lasts long enough to give you the freedom to stay out later. - So that if somebody wanted to go on a date after work, you know, that simply have to get home before 4 o'clock on the morning or something

like that to get their shot. It'll become your friend for life because it will permit you to enjoy your evenings if you want. - To Jail came from the Haitian Creole word. Toju, to you, Jail, you, which came originally

from the French word Tojuore, which means all the days always. And Toju was the Haitian Creole version of it, always. - So she's got this whole narrative arc that she wants to express somehow in a word, in a musical word.

She doesn't need people to know the story. She just needs them to feel its resonance. - I see, so that's the real poetry of it. - That's right, a whole story, a whole world that you just need to feel the underlying resonance

of in the music of a word. - When you're naming drugs and you've named a lot of them,

how did it feel when, finally, it was out on the market,

was there a thing where you're like, oh, man, I'm immortal. Like, I'm in people's households. - No, what the feeling was not then. It was when I originally came up with a name and wrote it down on paper, and I said,

this is going to be a good one. That's when I had the good feeling. - Same more about that. - Well, it was like a mental orgasm. You get something that you know is good.

You know that you've done other things, not that good, and here comes this, and you know, when it sings and it looks good and it's going to work, you know, and all that, it just lights you up all over. - I'm a little more reserved

than my feelings, I'd say. I'm also a little more pragmatic. - Scott, doesn't even like to talk about himself as an autonomous being in this regard. Like, he's all about the team and the partnership

and literally will say that he gets his pleasure out of creating a lot of great names at scale. But there are those ones, or those names, that he favors in his heart. - Sometimes there's a good name,

and I'll say in turn, I'm like, what's going on with that name? Is it still alive? Has it died yet? What's going to happen?

How could we keep it in? I do keep an eye on some projects, and as I hope that makes it, we do have one coming up for a weight loss drug that I'm very excited about. - Can you say, can you say?

- Oh, absolutely not. Again, I said, I like my job. - All right, no, we do have one or two, like going out on the weight loss category. But, you know, I hope it works.

We're waiting regulatory feedback. So it's still like up in the air, and I have a jingle in my head for it, too. - So, I'll let this name pass. I am so going to ask, I will let you know.

- And I'll just say this, I'll just say this,

“this name, and the jingle, or the song associated”

with it, will be so obvious if and when the name gets approved, you'll text me, and you're like, I got it. - I got it. - And I'll leave it at that. (upbeat music)

- And I'm sitting here, like I never thought I would be

hoping for the moment that I see a TV ad for a weight loss drug with one of those names, and I'm like, that's the one. - I really hope that happens. - I hope so, too.

“- I think this is why we love to have you do stuff”

for this show. This was so great, Sean, thank you.

- Always a pleasure, Roman.

(upbeat music) - 99% of us, what was reported this week by Sean Cole, produced and edited by Christopher Johnson, mixed by Martin Gonzalez, music by Swan Rail, fact-checking by Naomi Barr.

Like I mentioned earlier, Sean is a long time friend of the show in a friend of mine.

He's been doing stories for us

“for like more than a decade, so go to our website”

and check out all of his greatest hits, including one on how to hack your IKEA furniture, the one on cow tunnels that everyone loves, they still mention it to me to this day, and my personal favorite about the album art of Divo.

Check 'em out. - Kathy 2 is our executive producer, Kurt Cole's that is the digital director, Delini Hall is our senior editor. The rest of team includes Chris Brube, Jason Dillion,

Emmett Fitzgerald, Vivian Leigh, Lashminton, Joe Rosenberg, Kelly Prime, Jacob Medina Gleason, Talon and Range Stradley and me, Roman Mars. The 99% of his logo was created by Stephen Lawrence. We are a part of the Series XM podcast family,

now had quartered six blocks north in the Pandora building. In beautiful, uptown, Oakland, California. You can find us on all the usual social media sites as well as our new Discord server. There's a link to that as well as every past episode

of 99 P.I. at 99P.I. - I'll be back at 8.00.