28 Years on the Force: Chief Angela Averiett on What It Really Takes to Change Police Culture

to cry in front of people. So, one of my colleagues was killed in the line of duty. And I remember showing up to work that day. And that was the first time I allowed myself to cry in front of my coworkers.

- And what was the response? - Everyone else was crying too. Everyone was a wreck. And I think it created a safe space for them to express that. That's another thing that we don't build into our culture

is that it's okay to be vulnerable. Because vulnerability, people mistake it as a sign of weakness. I think it's a superpower. - Law enforcement, the mere utterance of the word gets some people's blood pumping on both sides

of the political aisle. But the fact is, we need police in a civilized society. The question we have to grapple with is,

“what's the best way for a modern police organization”

to operate in today's world?

Here's what I've learned.

Nearly all of the scandals the police have had almost always boiled down to the same issue. A lack of good leadership or a broken corporate culture, which are completely interrelated. That's why invited Chief of Police Angela Avery

to join me on the podcast. She's been a cop for over 27 years and has seen a thing or two in her time. She leads a midsize police force in California and has embraced many of the leadership and culture building

techniques that folks like the military and many modern corporations already use. And the results have been astounding. We touched on a lot of hot button subjects and we shy away from nothing.

I can guarantee that we will say at least one thing that will make almost everyone listing a little bit uncomfortable. But if we want to modernize the way police cultures are built today, we have to be open

to having a curious and honest conversation about it. I'd like to add that Chief Avery is also a member of an organization that I founded not long after the murder of George Floyd, the Curve Initiative.

The Curve brings together some of the most forward thinking modern-minded chiefs and sheriffs, Republicans and Democrats from across the country to figure out how we can help police learn the newest and best ways to build their leaders

and build strong corporate cultures.

“Chief Avery knows that the only way we can make a positive”

and lasting change in the police for the police and for the community is if the change comes from the inside out. If you'd like to learn more about the work we're doing at the Curve, please visit us at the Curve.org.

This is a bit of optimism. I have many questions. The police are, they're a topic these days, more than ever before, I think. They're not just civil servants that operate

in the background, at moments we love them, at moments we hate them, depending on our level of need. - It's a bit late. - It's a bit late.

- They've always been somewhat political

in the sense that crime is, I guess, the political thing. And there's different theories about how to fight it, but I would venture to say, since the murder of George Floyd and up until today, the police have been front and center of at the very

minimum, the news and more than that controversy and debate. - That's fair. - I think that's the first thing. - And I want to get to that with you. Let's start from the beginning.

Let me choose this as a profession. What did you, like where'd you grow up? What did you study, you know, like how are you here now as a chief of police? - How much time do we have?

'Cause that's a very long story, it's very twisted. So I actually never had any intentions of being a police officer. I wanted to be an airline pilot and I was around 20 years old and just gotten married to my husband.

Then I'm still married to, he's my first husband,

but only has to be-- - Congratulations. - Thank you, I'm so happy to say. - That's a accomplishment. - Just quite a couple of years ago.

- Exactly, we had a small child at the time. And I was trying to figure out what I wanted to do, I worked at an airline and I really wanted to be an airline pilot. The problem was we were very poor and couldn't afford flying lessons.

And so my brother, who's a firefighter, told me about this job working at the police department. I was like, oh great, it's double what my salary is now,

“which I think at that time was like $15 an hour, right?”

Which I thought was a lot of money. And I was like, yeah, I'm gonna be able to take my flying lessons. Well, the problem was, it still wasn't enough money for me to take flying lessons, but I went on a ride along and that changed,

literally changed the trajectory of my life. Like, I'm even getting worked up talking about it right now because I remember being so scared, but so energized on that ride along and we didn't even do anything.

I think we went to an alarm call at some commercial building. And I remember the officer doing the Scooby-Doo thing and creeping around and saying, right behind me, and I was just like, oh my god, this is so exciting. And I remember how people looked at us when we drove by,

but I just remember feeling like such a huge part of the community

being on that ride along. And that's really what propelled me in this direction. It took me three years to get hired on as an officer back then. - You went to the academy, obviously. You had to use sworn and you operate in the Bay Area.

- Yes. - What was something, because once you get on the job, I mean, you know this, the excitement of driving at high speed

and turning on the lights and sirens. At some point, it goes away. The adrenaline. - No, it doesn't. - No.

- Always. - Always. - Yes.

- What did you discover on the job

that made it even better? And what did you discover that made it even worse? - Oh.

“I think what made it better was really having the ability”

to affect someone's life in a positive way. And, you know, I'm meeting people literally on the worst day of their life sometime. And it's tragic and it's hard. It's gritty.

It's dark. But taking that moment and having the ability to turn it around to give this individual some glimmer of hope that I'm gonna be there to help them get into this dark time. - Okay, so.

So I remember I responded to the hospital one night. This lady had been a victim of domestic violence. She had been with his man for a long time and he had shot her. Well, this was the second time that he shot her.

He shot her one time and she didn't die. He shot her this second time in the head. But luckily, the angle of the bullet like kind of skirted around her skull and exited. So she was alive.

I've never met this one in my life.

I walk into the ER and I say hi. I'm Angela, I'm here to take your report. And I looked around and I said, you know what? Your mother was right. And she looks at me like,

I don't know, you what are you talking about? And I say, girl, you are hard-headed. (laughing) And as corny as that joke was, it made her relax. We probably laughed for five minutes.

And then she told me the story about what happened. And so I just wanted to build a report with her. I wanted to calm her down because she was so afraid in that moment. And I don't know what happened to her.

I know she survived that. I don't know if she went back to him. But in that small moment, Simon, I just felt like I was able to give her some hope, some happiness. And it made me feel good to help her in that way.

And so that's the positive thing on the job is, I meet so many different types of people. And I'm able to, in some small way, help them through a dark time. The flip side, though, is that there are a lot of dark times.

And I've seen some horrendous things in my time on the job.

“Things that I think I've packed away in a little box”

and thrown into the back of my brain because I don't want to remember them. And I'm sure a lot of cops will say the same thing, right? We come across some of the worst in our society, right? Like I like to be happy.

I like to be an optimist. I like to think the best in people, but not everyone is good. We come across true evil. And that's the worst part of the job.

And seeing children dying, seeing people being abused, children being abused, horrendous accidents. It's a lot sometimes to process. Cops are some of the most cynical people I've ever met. For all the reasons you said, they see people at their worst.

They know everyone, regardless of their income, regardless of their color. They know everyone has it in them to do something bad, to even if it's, even if it's something stupid, like you get caught for speeding and you start yelling at the cop. And I did write along when I was in college with the Massachusetts

A Police and I saw it and it saw it and so more than any other civil servant, cops are really cynical. Is that a good thing? Is that a bad thing? Is it just go with the job?

Does it hurt the profession?

“Is it something that can you make cops less cynical?”

You know, sorry, I'm laughing because I don't think that's possible. I mean, there's, there's cynical. Yeah, and about society, because for everything you just said, they see people, yes, there's good. And they all have the stories of helping the little old ladies across the street.

And I feel like my job has value. And there's a lot of that that's, let's be honest. It makes it onto the websites and the chiefs like to say, look at all our cops helping kittens out of trees. But at the end of the day, it's a lot of people at their worst.

And it's a lot of bad days, even if it's a car accident, or nobody did anything, but it's a bad day. Correct. I think it's part of the job. It's a coping mechanism.

No. But it all evolves around mindset, right? If you allow the evil and the darkness to stay in your brain 24/7,

It's going to turn you cynical, right?

I don't think it's possible to train the cynicism out of who we are as police officers. It's how we cope with things to be quite honest.

“However, I think we've made some strides in lessening the cynicism”

through focusing on officer wellness, which 20 years ago was not a thing. There was no wellness. Like, I remember going to a fire where this eight-year-old boy died. And it was horrible. It was a horrible scene.

And I escorted his body to the hospital. And I just remember being so devastated in that moment for his family. And there's nothing I could do. And then my sergeant shows up and he's like, hey, are you okay? Well, of course, I'm going to say, I'm okay, right?

And then he goes, okay, well, you have a call holding I need you to clear and go hit the street. So I went from that to I don't even know what the next call was. It didn't matter what it was. But I wasn't able to process what I was going through in that moment.

Now, I think what we would do is pull people off the street. Let them go back to the station. Do you compress, maybe even send them home. But I had to just keep going and taking reports from people. That's why I think people sometimes get

confident aren't at their best because you don't know what call they just came from to come see you, right? We didn't do a great job in thinking about or talking about our mental health. And we saw a lot of issues because of it. You know, officer suicide still is a huge problem.

Alcoholism, you know, the list goes on and on and the vices that we probably find to deal with the stress and the pain of this job. But I think just talking about it first is helpful, recognizing that there's a problem.

“But also, I think we don't talk enough about mindset, right?”

So I can tell you that there were many times on the job where I wanted to quit. I wanted to retire. I just didn't have it in me that day to carry on because it was just exhausting. Oh, also, we work a lot of weird shifts. We work long hours, right?

And so what I would do to reset myself sometimes is there was a store in town that, well, it was a puppy mill. Okay, so I know that's not the best thing, right? I know if we were going to like lose their minds over it.

But still, they had puppies and the puppies were amazing.

And I would go in there and I would play with all the puppies. And I would almost cry because it was so amazing. And it would reset my mind. And then I would go back on the street and I'm like, okay, I got this. I can do this another day.

And it was something private separate. Nobody could make fun of you because nobody knew you were doing it. Well, my partner at the time, she went with me. Okay. But we didn't tell anybody.

(laughs) That was our secret. But I think people don't appreciate that a lot of the scandals, problems, even excessive violence that we see that has come out of some police agencies, police forces.

You know, when somebody is in a high stress job in the private sector, let's add in some unhealthy corporate culture where you might get along with everybody, but you don't really trust anybody, which is, yeah. It's pervasive in policing, which we'll talk about in a moment. And so you have a high stress job.

You have excessive amounts of machismo and testosterone. You can't ask for help, you know, you get. Somebody comes in right after you come from an eight-year-old, you know, dead body,

“and now you have to go out and beat you up again.”

Now, in the private sector, if you're in a high stress job and not a lot of trust at work, not a lot of psychological safety, nobody is surprised. When you come home, you sit on the couch, you stare at the TV, you're short-tempered with the kids, you kick the dog, you're despondent, and you don't, you're just not a fun person to be around.

Nobody is surprised by that. That's how stress shows up very often, right? A lot of short-tempered. If you give somebody authority and a gun and you multiply that stress by a factor of however many more than just general work stress, it is unsurprising

when there is excessive violence, where it may be coming from, maybe it's sourced from. And I remember this is how you and I met, you know, full disclosure, I started a charity called The Curve of which you've been involved with now for a few years, where we believe modernizing policing starts from the inside out. When we founded the organization, I remember talking to lots of chiefs and sheriffs,

the ones who believe the change has to happen. And I went around the room and said, "What's the problem?" And we got 20, 30 different answers. And the first question we said was, "How can we help the profession?"

"How can we make the profession better if we don't even know what the problem is?"

But what we found was there's a common factor in all of these problems that the chiefs and sheriffs articulated, which was poor leadership and broken cultures. And I don't think people recognize and realize we have an entire industry that teaches leadership. I'm a part of it. It's embraced by corporate. Some corporations do better than others. Obviously. But it's a thing. It's a thing. In the military, we see leadership training.

they, again, we can debate the efficacy of it. But they understand that it's important to train leaders when they become leaders. Police say there's very little of that as a profession. You want to make sergeant, you take a test. You decide that I want to be a sergeant.

And you take the test and basically it's like you promote yourself. I mean, kind of, you know,

sort of, it's not like somebody says you're a great leader. We're going to promote you to sergeant and there's a process. Am I right? Or am I overstating it? Well, sort of. Somewhere in the middle. So somewhere in the middle. Yes, there is a process that we have to follow. People take a test. But sometimes people are good test takers. But does that mean that they're good leaders?

It's a combination of technical skill, right? Because there is a highly technical element to this job.

“Right. And to be a sergeant, you have to know how to do the basic things.”

Right. There should be an element of leadership. Yes, in the questions, in the process.

So I actually am putting on a sergeant's test in two weeks. And there is an element to leadership

in the testing process. But I have to tell you Simon, I think it's not just about the lack of leadership training. I sincerely believe it's about culture and changing the culture from the inside out. We treat each other like absolute crap sometimes internally. That's where the the nest is. That's where the problem start is we talk crap about each other all the time. We treat each other terribly. We have some leaders who are just terrible leaders.

And some leaders that are just terrible individuals to be quite honest with you, right? I can say that I've worked for some phenomenal leaders in this job. And I've worked for some leaders that are trash. And so they have such a huge influence on the organization and on the

“culture. It drags the culture down. Yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. So I think it's it goes beyond”

just leadership. It's about the culture. Well, they're in a strictly linked, right? Absolutely. Leaders that's the culture and the leader can and what I've learned as I've been studying police forces and policing is the there's in general. Again, it's not a rule. But but there's too much lack of psychological safety and trust amongst amongst, amongst definitely from rank and file to leadership. Correct. And again, we're not talking about, you know, when there's a call for help.

If somebody's in danger, there's a call for help. Everybody rushes in because there's a shared danger and that that that that safety is is taking care of. Yes. But we're talking about just the daily job and the willingness for somebody to say you said it's hard to say I'm struggling or I just saw a dead kid. Just can I have 10 minutes please? You know, you know, that that psychological safety, that psychological protection is we need more of it. Yes, we don't build

psychological safety into our cultures. So all the places we need to have it, right? So this is my 28th year in this profession. Three years as a professional staffer in the 25 years as one officer. It wasn't until 2015 that I felt comfortable enough to cry in front of people. So one of my colleagues was killed in the line of duty and I remember showing up to to work that day and absolute wreck. And I was like, there's no way I'm going to get through this briefing today without, without crying.

And then I thought, well, why shouldn't I be able to cry? Like, a man was killed last night on the streets protecting this community. Why should I be afraid to cry in front of people?

And I was a lieutenant at the time. So I was pretty high ranking. And that was the first time I

allowed myself to cry in front of my coworkers. How sad is that? What and what was the response? Everyone else was crying too. Everyone was a wreck. Everyone was so emotional. And I think it created a safe space for them to express that. And I didn't realize until that moment that it was okay that I could let my wall down a little bit and be more vulnerable. That's another thing that we don't build into our culture is that it's okay to be vulnerable. Because vulnerability,

people mistake it as a sign of weakness. I think it's a superpower. What happened to the culture of that police force after everybody cried? I think it changed a lot of relationships. For the better, I think I think people had a different level of respect for each other. I think it actually humanized us amongst each other. Which thinking about how weird that is, right? Like these are people that I spend 12 hours a day with. And I can't say that we all

treated each other like human beings. Right? We were not necessarily professional with each other. Kind of rude, very cynical. And I think it made people pause and go away to minute.

“Your life is in my hands. Right? My life is in your hands when we're out on the street when we're”

fighting crime together. So why behind these four walls to be treated each other? Like shit. This raises a very big question, which is the general public is asking for the police to

each other as human beings? Yeah, it's impossible. Right? I mean, I'm not surprised that we have the issues that we have in society. Right? Now, granted, I don't want this to sound like this is a cop

bashing moment because clearly I would never do that. I know you would never do that either. But we

have some work to do, right? We need to work on ourselves. But I'm not surprised that we've seen excessive force cases that we've seen cops in trouble where they're committing crimes and they're doing illegal things because our culture is so broken on the inside. Now, this isn't true of every organization. Of course, right? I've seen some organizations that have relatively healthy

“cultures. But overall, as a profession, as a profession, I think we have so much more work to”

it. As a profession, the balance is off. The balance is so awesome. I don't think people realize, I don't think the general public recognizes how difficult and how complex this problem is. You know, the solution, I think we've already talked about, which is it's about teaching leaders, grooming leaders to be better leaders, to learn those human skills that leaders need, right? I'm not just the technical skills. Yes. And then creating cultures in which people have a sense of

psychological safety to ask for help admit mistakes. Say, I'm exhausted. Cry. Yes. Feel like they can be a human being. Be seen as a human being. All of which has ripple effects that make them much better capable of dealing with the stresses and strains of the job. Correct.

Like, the solution is simple, not easy, but the solution is I think we understand what it is.

And if we look at the policing agencies that have had scandals and excessive force of

“almost always, it's not anomaly. Almost always it's the result of quite a broken culture. Absolutely.”

You know, I mean, I hate to bring it up. Well, I don't actually, you know, if we go back and look at Derek Schoven, you know, who killed George Floyd, you know, here is a cop with 10 years of excessive force complaints against him, who is the training officer that day. How does someone with 10 years of complaints against them get chosen as a training officer is mind-blowing, but my point is it was a powder keg waiting to blow. Yes. You know, it was, it's like the signs were

there. The signs were there and it's like just a matter of time before Schoven did something. Yes. Right. So the solution we, we are aware of, corporate solutions are usually the same thing. I don't think people recognize that there's no head of police in America, where the head of, you know, in the UK, there's a head of police. They can say, hey, we're doing this program because the police force needs it and one person makes a decision and it filters across an entire

nation that doesn't exist in the United States. Now, we have 18,000 individual policing agencies with different cultures, different cultures, different sizes of which the vast majority I can't remember the name was like 80% or something or fewer than 100 cops. Correct. And so like when we look at New York and Chicago, you know, New York is 44,000 cops. They have their own challenges, their own issues. Most policing is local, small, and fewer than 25 cops, which have very different

cultures. And so it raises the fascinating question, which is, how do we bring the solution, which we know what it is, which is better training for leaders, stronger corporate cultures, bring psychological safety when it's 18,000 unique, different organizations like, I'm sorry, I'm laughing because if I knew the answer to that, Simon, I wouldn't be here right now, be on a yacht somewhere here, fair, fair. I mean, I can say we have to start somewhere though and talking

“about it, I think is crucial to figuring out where to go. And legislation though helpful isn't”

going to fix the problem. It has to be from the inside out. Police have to raise their hands and say, we choose to go through this because it's important to us. Yes. And we and society will benefit. Yes. And I think, you know, we talked a minute ago about that the culture is set from the top, right? The leader sets the tone for the culture of the organization. That is correct. However, it's up to the people that work with that leader to make sure that culture sticks, right?

So I consider all day Simon and say, you know, we need to be more compassionate and vulnerable, and, you know, all these things, but if the people underneath me don't believe that, nothing is ever going to change. That's where the sticking point is. That's why it's hard for us to turn that ship around. We also don't have necessarily standard operating procedures across every organization or every state. And, you know, it's interesting sitting here talking to you Simon.

I've never really put it in this perspective. And now I'm going to have to dig deeper like you're

saying because how can we get on the same page? I don't know. I don't know how we get on the same page. Right. Let's go deeper. I had this sort of realization as I was getting ready to talk to you that crime and police are deeply emotional for a lot of people. Yes. Right. Yes. And statistics mean absolutely nothing. Right. And so, for example, let's just take it

crime is actually way down. And it's not a question or a degree or disagree. What I realize is those are two different statements. And there have nothing to do with each other. Yes. Because if you've been the victim of a crime or there's been a crime adjacent to you, it's crime written. Yes. And, you know, it doesn't matter if the statistics come out that burglaries are at an all-time low. Right. If you're a victim, police are doing it. The police are doing it.

The police are doing an amazing job. The, you know, burglaries on all-time low. Yes.

If there was a burglarie, forget you, if there's a burglarie on your block, everyone on that block believes that crime is at a control. That's right. And if you are the victim, now you absolutely believe that crime is at a control and you will stop at nothing and you will demand the police do whatever they can. You don't care how aggressive their effort has to be because fear trumps everything. Yes. And protection of me and my family trumps everything. And end for people who

have been on the wrong side of cops or, or if, or if it's political, they have the same anger towards that uniform in that badge, regardless if who's wearing it, regardless of the health of your corporate culture, regardless of how good or bad your cops are, it is the statistics and the explanations be damned, whether it's crime or whether it's the cop, it's a deeply, deeply emotional thing. And usually when things are deeply emotional, we want them resolved immediately. I want

“crime stopped now. I don't care what you have to do. Stop it now. Yes. And conversely, I want the”

police to get their shit together. I don't care what it takes. I don't care how much pressure

do it now. The problem is both of those things take time and both of them are imperfect and

messy and you'll never get to zero or personal. Sorry, messy. So let's take your, your, your agency. How would your cops, because they've worked at other agencies? I, I, I remember some of come in and some of come back and some of left. Yes. How would they rate the culture at your agency compared to other places they've worked? Interesting. I had this conversation recently, actually, one of the cops said to me, people who are homegrown and have only worked here and have never

worked anywhere else don't realize that the grass isn't always greener. So I think overall, there's a level of satisfaction with the policing culture. So the ones that come from the outside recognize it's pretty good. The ones that have only, have only worked there. Sometimes they don't

see it that way. Not always. Right. Right. Some of them are very happy. Sometimes they don't see it that

way. Right. I swear to you, it's all about your mindset. Right. I mean, if you focus strictly on negativity and what's wrong with everything, then you're never going to see what's right with anything. Yeah. Right. You know, I've been to five different police agencies. I've seen and been involved in so many different cultures, two times as a police chief. Each organization is vastly different.

“But I think people find a level of happiness and satisfaction when they choose to come to work”

every day and be positive. Now, that's not always easy. I went through a solid 12 years of my career where I was completely miserable. I worked in a very toxic environment to the point where my safety was impacted. Like literally my physical safety was impacted. I worked on a team of individuals that would not cover me on traffic stops. They would not come to my calls because they hated me so much. They would not talk to me. It was a miserable existence. But what the problem with that was

Simon is that I allowed that to get to me where I focused on that every single day. I would come to work. I was terrified to go to work because I didn't know it was going to happen inside the police department. And then I realized I was allowing those people to have power over me. And so I changed my mindset. And I realized those people are going to be who they are. I can't change them. I don't want to change them. I'll let them be miserable over in the corner. I'm going to be over here

happy living my life. And coming to work every day and going, I'm going to be positive and I'm going to try to make an impact on someone's life today is what changed my mindset. So when we talk about culture when we talk about whether or not people are happy in the environment that they work in,

“I think it's all in what you make it. This job is really hard. It's hard as a police chief. It's”

hard as a police officer. It's hard as a sergeant. Everything in between. But what keeps me going is seriously the ability to positively impact our communities and the profession. I don't this is going to sound corny. I don't do this job for me. I don't do this job because I like these stars or because I'm looking for some sort of fame or something. I do it because I love serving people. I love serving the people that I work with. I love being an inspiration to them. But I love

When she was three, she saw me my uniform for the first time and I'll never forget

her little face just lit up. And she was like, you're the police and I almost lost it. I almost started bawling because it made me so proud in that moment to be a police officer. This is why we do what we do Simon. We do it because we really do want to make a difference. I know I know we hear that all the time from our police officers. Like, oh, I just want to make a difference in the community. But it's legit. Like think about the impact that we have negative and positive in our communities.

This is what just keeps me going is because I want us to be the best that we can be. What was the first change you made when you became a police chief? You'd seen the good. You'd seen the bad. You'd seen the healthy. You've seen the unhealthy. You've seen mental health, not treated seriously. And other policing agencies, you realize the importance of that. How it

“taxes on the human being that wears the uniform. Yes. And if you want to fix policing in the community,”

fix the human beings wearing the uniform. We're dealing with the stress first. We're help them.

What was the one of the first things you got to do that you're like, if I'm ever police chief, I'm doing this and you did it. I think showing them a side of leadership that they weren't used to. So being authentic. What were they used to? What were they used to? They were used to basically do as I say. Right. Like here are the rules. This is what you're going to do. Go do it. There was no emotion. There was no humanity behind it. 20 years ago when I started,

it was very much a warrior mindset. Right. It was get out there. Make a rest. Take people to jail. Go hit the next call. Right. There was no mental health. There was no wellness. There was nothing. There was no guardian mindset. So in this profession, traditionally, we've seen leaders that are kind of hard asses, I guess. And just rule with an iron fist almost. And that's not true of everywhere. So I don't want it to sound like I'm putting a blanket statement out there. But there was no emotion

ever shown. There was no realness. There was zero, zero authenticity. Let me be cynical. Yes. If someone or community is reacting to the emotion of fear and crime, whether it's statistically accurate or not is irrelevant. Right. And then I hear that the police chief was worried about you know authenticity and vulnerability. And you show me another police chief was like, "Full of it was get out there and make a rest." I'm like, "I take that guy." And it's like,

like, how do we reconcile the pressures from mayors, from city managers, from community, with the need to the seeming paradoxical need? Yes. And I'm so glad that you asked me that. That's a great question because there has to be balance. So absolutely, I expect from my

“cops to go out there and take back guys off the street. That's first and foremost, right?”

I expect for us to keep our community safe. However, the balance comes where having the space where you can be vulnerable, having that confidence to know that I can break down and cry in front of you and then I'm a human and it's okay to do with that emotion. That translates into I'm out on the street dealing with someone who, um, I don't know, just rob the convenience store. Well, does that mean that I need to be a hard ass and be rough with that person and use

excessive force or treat them like garbage? Absolutely not. I remember I arrested this robbery suspect. He robbed a gas station and I remember just being so happy. I was like, "Hill yeah,

we got him in custody. We found his gun. He ditched it right before I pulled him over and I'll never

forget this." He said, "I did it because my grandmother needs medicine." It's going to make me cry. It made me, yeah. It made me feel so bad because it was so desperate that he had to go rob a gas station to get money to buy his grandmother's medication. So when I talk about humanity and authenticity and being vulnerable, well, if we don't have compassion for our fellow man, if we don't have compassion for each other, then that translates to me to having a negative attitude and having a negative

relationship with our communities. But if we start on the inside and build that safe space and encourage our officers to be authentic and look, I'm tearing up talking to you right now. I just feel like it makes us more whole as humans and allows us the ability to show

“compassion when we're dealing with people out on the street fighting crime. I think you're dealing.”

This is a perfect example. I think you are the embodiment of what we're doing at the curve,

have to ask themselves, "Why do we exist?" And we realize as a profession, policing, the question is,

“"Why do we need police?" Like, "What's the purpose of police?" And most people say to enforce the law”

to catch bad guys, which is true. Absolutely. And it's one of the things police do for sure, but it's not everything police do. No, no, no. It's, and it might be a significant thing that

police do. One of the most important things police do, but it's still not everything. And we're

defining an entire profession by one of the capabilities. And none of us want to be defined by our work. Like, nobody wants to be told, "You're identity." Like, "You're identity as a human being." Yes. Is your, is your, is your lawyer. Right? Right. Well, no, that's something I do. Right. It's not who I am. And cops had no sense of purpose other than many of the functions. Yes. The technical side. The technical side. They even call themselves law enforcement. That's just one

thing that police do. Correct. So the whole identity was to one thing. And so we recognize that police need an identity. And we, and we asked ourselves, "Why do we need police?" And the result we came to the answer we came to was to protect the vulnerable from harm, to protect the vulnerable from harm.

“That's why we need police. And when there is a crime committed and there are victims of that,”

of that crime, then we want to protect the victims by getting bad guys off the street. Absolutely.

That gas station burglary. When it's happening, your hell bent. Absolutely. There's, there's there's not a lot of compassion. Oh, that's, let's be crystal clear. The compassion came after he was in handcuffs. Absolutely. Not before. Absolutely. That's a very important distinction. Thank you for making that. Right. Absolutely. It's very important distinction. And I went out and protecting the vulnerable harm is victims. Yes. I'm going to, I'm going to protect the victims

from this, this bad person. Yes. Once the bad person is in handcuffs, they are now the vulnerable. Yes. Right. Because they are no longer a threat to themselves or anyone else. Yes. And I think to understand that to go into life or to choose to put on a, on a uniform to protect the vulnerable from harm, which is flexible and relative can change in a moment. Yes. It gives that, and that should be the identity of the person. So though you can enforce the law and you can enforce it with impunity

when necessary. Yes. At the end of the day, that's not who you are. You're somebody who wakes up in the morning to protect the vulnerable from harm. And sometimes those vulnerable are your own officers. Yes. And I go back to the story of you bringing an eight-year-old, you know, after having died in a fire to the hospital and your chief couldn't understand that in that moment, you were the vulnerable one. Obviously, we know the families vulnerable. You're going to do your best to be there

for them. But in that moment, that you were the vulnerable one. Yes. And he didn't have the leadership human skills to know how to hold space for you. Don't fault him for it. It wasn't trained. No, and it wasn't a bad guy. It wasn't part of policing culture. It wasn't part of the police in culture. And so the best he could do was we'll get back out there, buck out. Hit this

“treaty. And I think that's where I think a lot of people get this wrong, which is people think”

you're either on the side of the poor guy who is rubbing with a gun, armed burglary because his grandmother needs drugs or you can only see the cops and the answers. It's all together. It's a mess. It's a society and it's humanity and it's messy and it's all those things. Yes. And you can be pro-police and pro-victum at the same time and you can be wanting to protect the vulnerable from harm and recognizing that that's a relative scale. And what people,

I think also failed to recognize is this is finite and infinite games, which is the finite game is, this beginning in middle and end, get that guy off the street. Yes. finite. The infinite game is how do I create a culture of policing that is healthy for human beings to work in this culture, that it's those healthier human beings who feel psychological safety and understand they can if they're feeling sad or angry, they can express it in a healthy way

at work without being vilified or hurting their promotability because of it. Correct.

That ultimately over the course of time makes for a more effective police force. Yes.

And exactly what you just said is when you ask me the question, I want to close the loop on this, what was the first thing that I did as a police chief was creating that kind of environment and that kind of culture. And how that translated was in the community that I served at that time, people would come up to me all the time. Oh, I just love your officers. They're so professional. They're so kind. They're so caring. You know, they helped me with this or they helped me with that.

That's where the bridge is, right, is when it starts internally and you create that environment, that positive environment. I think that it makes our officers have a more healthy relationship with

if I had to pick you, miss vulnerable over this person, you know, go out and arrest people,

you pick the guy that's, let's arrest everyone. Don't get me wrong, Simon. I'm not here today because I'm just, you know, this mushy teddy bear. Right. You don't make, you don't make chief. You don't make chief for unicorns and rainbows. Absolutely. Right. I realize that we have a job to do in a tough job and it's an ugly job sometimes and we have to do it. Please work in pretty at the same time that doesn't mean that we have to be savages. And it's human beings doing that job.

Correct. And human beings in the receiving end of that job. Absolutely. But human beings. Human beings serving human beings. Yes. Human beings that have the same problems that people outside

“this uniform have as well. I think that's another part that people don't quite understand.”

I'm not superhuman because I have this uniform on. I have the same issues and problems that

everyone else does. No. Right. Which is why alcoholism and suicide are higher than the national averages in policing because the coping mechanism aren't there. If you can't feel psychologically safe amongst your own who understand the stresses and who aren't politicizing you and aren't screaming and yelling at you, if you can't feel safe in that safe place, well, there were can you feel safe in the answers you don't? Yes. Which is why you turn to alcohol or in the worst

cases. Suicide is the best solution. Yes. Measuring good corporate culture and policing is very hard. Not different to companies. The reason we overindex on measuring money in companies is because it's easy to measure and the machine machine stuff that people think is machine machine, but the

soft skills, the human skills is harder to measure. Yes. But everybody knows and I've made a career

on making a point which is the companies that focus on human skills over time will actually outperform the traditional metrics. Right. Pleasing the reason we overindex on measuring arrests and and tickets, it's easy to measure. Exactly. And so a good cop traditionally in the past is one who writes a lot of tickets and makes a lot of arrests, not because they actually are better. It's just easier to measure. It's easier. So how do you measure a good cop and how do you

deemphasize simply tickets and arrests to create a healthier, better culture? That over time do support the metrics that we are interested in, like this is a safe community 11, crime is low,

“et cetera. I think there's a reason why police officers have discretion, right? We have the letter”

the law and the spirit of the law. So an officer can make a choice under a lot of circumstances on whether or not to arrest someone in that moment, depending on what the crime is. To me, what defines a good officer is someone that can find that balance between being a warrior and being a guardian, right? I mean, those are the best terms I can think of to describe that. So let's say an officer is out writing people tickets because people are speeding around a school zone and we don't

want our kids to get hit going to a friend's school. Well, an officer pulls someone over who has expired registration and just got a new job and he's late to work. This literally happened another day I was out on patrol. So this is why I'm using this story. He had expired registration. He was late to work. He ran a stop sign and he was struggling in life. It would have been easy to just give him a ticket for the expired registration and for blowing the stop sign. He literally said

to me, you know, I just got this job. I've only been there for a week. Please don't tell my car. This is my only car. I'm behind in all my bills. I'm two months behind in my rent. Can you give me a break? And I had a nice long conversation with this young man. And at the end, we gave more registration

“ticket because you have to have your car. Your car has to be registered, but we didn't tell it.”

And we let him get off to work. That's what makes a balance to police officer. Someone that can do their job because you have to do your job. But they can balance it with what makes sense in this situation. Right? Are we going to help this man by towing his car? No, because he's going to lose his job. He's going to get further. Yeah, it's going to compound and turn into so many more problems. And that's what we want. We want to cop who who does have discretion. Yes, because otherwise

none of us would ever get a break. Exactly. And I don't know that's fair. They can have a break but I want to break it. I think is most people's overwhelming mentality. I think what I'm learning from you and I think that this is what makes these conversations difficult. As even as people are listening to this, I'm sure people are having visceral responses. They're either angrily agreeing or disagreeing with many of the things you and I have said. Either

for us against us, not sure what to make of it. Yeah. And I think that perfectly captures what this job is, which is it is highly nuanced, highly complex. Yes. And it is the most human

for and about human beings, it's people at their best, at their worst, in good moods, in bad

moods, on drugs, you know, and the cops are in good moods and bad moods on the cops are at their best and the cops are at their worst. And the more that police chiefs can do to create an environment in which more days than not police will have the right mindset, be having a good day, be prepared for the stresses they're about to face and the nuances and the uncertainty and the difficulties, more often than not, it will go right. I agree. And if they aren't, that they

“come to work and say, I wouldn't trust me today. Yes. You know, I need help. I think I need,”

I just had a blowout fight with my spouse. I am not in a good mood. I got in trouble yesterday.

I got spit on yesterday. Today's not a good day. Today's not a good day for me. Can I

drive a desk today? You know? I had an officer. Without fear that that will sideline their career. Absolutely, because or creates things, but it's ideal. There's a possibility of that happening. Right. I had an officer do that to me when I was a sergeant. I was in the back parking lot of the police department and I was about to drive out and he came up to me and he's like, you know, I'm, I'm really struggling today. And I was like, oh, what's going on? And he's like,

you know, it's, I'm missing time with my kids right now. I'm going through a divorce and it was supposed to be my weekend and I just, I really like to be with my kids. I said, okay, we'll

make a home. Yeah. Now, that's not an everyday thing. Right. Right. We have to balance, you know,

how many people do we have on the team today? Because we need everybody. But in that moment, I could tell he really needed to not be at work. And I think we're in a place now Simon where it's okay to come to work and say, I don't know, today's not not going to be a good day for me. You're talking about things that are fairly normal in the corporate world. Not normal. You know, like, in the corporate world, if somebody comes to work and be like, I'm just like, it's bad.

It's a bad day for me today. Either we say, don't worry. Like, we'll cover for you. We say,

“take your take a day off. Like, that's what we do for each other in a good corporate culture.”

And, and I think, I don't think people appreciate that for some reason, we don't want policing cultures to be the same good, strong corporate cultures as any other company that we work for. People think that you're soft if you are being vulnerable. Or if you come to work and say, I just can't do it today. Do you know what I do to avoid the word? What? I talk about the behavior. I mean, especially in in environments where the word vulnerability is going to be more of a

trigger than than than the stuff. I hate that word, Trigger. Fair point. Fair point. Let's get my discussion. You know, with that word alone has the all the liability and they can't get off that word, I just talk about the stuff that I want them to do. I avoid saying, we need to be in a culture where we can be vulnerable. I avoid that. I say, we need to be in a culture where we can admit mistakes to each other. We can ask for help for each other. We need to be in a culture where we can

take total accountability for our words and our actions. Having an off day means you ask for help. It doesn't mean you. It doesn't mean you're weak. It doesn't mean that you're soft. Also, I would, if I can offer one more recommendation. Yes. You when you say saying you're struggling doesn't mean you're weak. The problem with that language is the human, the human brain cannot comprehend the negatives. Okay. I can prove it to you already. You're ready. Don't think of the

color yellow. To light. So when we say to somebody, you know, asking for help doesn't make you weak. All people can hear as it makes me weak. Right? And so what we have to say to people is asking for help is the most courageous thing you can do. I love that. And that will destigmatize the things we don't want to do. So good intentions with the wrong communication get the wrong results. So I avoid the word vulnerability in cultures where I know that that word is

a liability. It's a liability. It's like a backward. How do you marry the all the things you're doing and that you're attempting to do in your agency to prove what the future police can could look like with crime statistics. So if a chief is being judged solely by the finite metric of crime stat, you know, all this beautiful human policing be damned, I'm going to drive

“arrests and tickets because damn it. That's what keeps me employed. But Simon, if we are driving”

arrests and tickets and our crime stats are fantastic and crimes down, you know, 30%, but what if the community doesn't trust us? How do we measure that? If the community doesn't trust us, it doesn't matter what the crime stats are saying. Look at Ferguson. Ferguson, they had a

couldn't pay their tickets, then their tickets turned into warrants. Right? And so people had to pay all this money, all these fines to get their tickets cleared. And that was what the city government ran off. Do you think that people in Ferguson trusted their police department? Right? They were

“revenue. And this is not a color income thing. No. No. Anybody on the receiving end of a ticket?”

Absolutely. You know, we can talk about data. We can talk about stats. I think there is some relevance in some importance in that, right? But at the end of the day, if the people that we served don't trust us, then nothing else matters. How do we measure trust in the police force? Because I agree with you. It's both. Money matters in a company. Yes. But it matters in addition to not instead of exactly the addition to. So the right. So if we agree that the stats matter also, but if we don't

have another measurement for the thing that does matter, then all we're going to do is focus on the one, how do we measure trust, especially when it's so highly emotional? It is very emotional. It's very personal. You know, stats be dem, as we said before. Yeah. We measure that by several factors. Let's say, does our city have civilian oversight? Yes. We have civilian oversight in San Leandro. Why? Because our community didn't trust us, right? So, but that's not a negative thing.

I actually think civilian oversight is actually good. And I know people are going to hate me for saying that, but I think there's some value in it. I also think when a police department has a community event does the community show up. So for instance, we just celebrated National Night Out. That's a nationwide community event where people have block parties. And the police department shows up and we break break with people. We talk to our community members. We take pictures. It is

literally my favorite night of the year. Because I get to meet so many people in the community. And the feedback that we get from our community members is phenomenal to me. That shows that they trust us, right? They're not like flipping us off and we're driving by. They're inviting us to

come into their homes and eat food with them. How powerful is that? If you don't trust someone,

you don't allow them into your house. Right. Let alone you're not going to cook for them. And so I think it's those little things. Those community events, those opportunities that we have

“to really like highlight who we are as human beings. That's how we gain trust. And that's how we”

know that our community trusts us. The challenge you have from a metric standpoint is very similar to any corporate, any corporate environment, which is how do you measure the qualitative and the quantitative? The quantitative is easy. Yes. Money arrests like it's it's it's it's easy. It's easy, right? But we all know that there's qualitative components to coming to work as well, which is how do I feel at work and how do other people feel? How do my customers feel? I mean at the end of the

day, the people you serve are your customers. Yes. I mean even even the criminals are our customers. Yeah. Right, honestly. They really are. I mean they're on the receiving end of your product. When they want to be or not. Right. But it's true. And and customer service means you can be arrested for the crime you've committed. But if somebody's not resisting, there's no reason to use any more force than is required at the time than is necessary. It's very, you know. And the law

specifically rates that. Robert Peel, you know, the Peelian principles that go back to the 1800s. You know, are as relevant today as they were back back then, which is you use as much force as necessary for the moment. And I'm not going to say for better for worse. Absolutely for worse. On both sides of the political spectrum, whether you're, you know, this really for or

“this really against cops. I think both sides are missing the point that it's not black and white.”

None of the stuff is easy. This is the messiest job there is. Yes. Literally, the messiest job there is. Yes. I'm not sitting here saying to show compassion to people when you're in a fight with someone. Of course, right? What I'm saying is yes, what's the handcuffs come on? There's no reason why you can't have a conversation with someone and explain, okay, this is what's happening. This is what we're going to do. That goes so far with people. And when you talk about

dealing with people before they're in handcuffs, I'm going to take one quick story. I remember I was

the sergeant in the gang unit. And I stopped this guy. I knew that this guy was armed. He was always

armed. He was a hitman. And I had conversations with him in the past. So he knew who I was. And I remember I stopped him in his friend one day. And it was like, I don't know, it was dark. It was like one in the morning or something. And so I'm staying there talking to him. I'm waiting for my cover to show up. And I just asked him, hey, what are you doing? What are you up to? Are you looking for a job? Like, you know, I can give you some websites for you to go online and look for a job.

And I'm just talking to him for like 10 minutes while I'm waiting for my backup. So you're just trying to, you're just writing time. Just because you don't want to engage by yourself. It's too dangerous. Exactly. There's two of them. And one of me, uh, and you're suspected that they're probably over there. And I knew that I knew that he had a gun on him. And I knew that he was

a violent dude. And so we just had the best conversation Simon and then my cover finally showed up.

Yeah. His friend also had a gun on him. So if those two guys wanted to murder me that night, they absolutely could have. But because I treated them like human beings. And I took the opportunity to build a rapport with him and talk to them. They spared me, right? And that's more

“what I'm saying is that you should never compromise your officer safety. But there are opportunities”

for us to, to just be human beings. And I can't help but stress that this is, this is coming from somebody who's a 28 year veteran of the police force. You are the chief of a sizable agency. You have seen it all, done at all, tried at all. You've experimented with being rough and efficient. And you do what I say. I'm the, I'm the popo. You're like, you know, you do, you do as your toll, you know? Like you've experimented with all of those things because you were a rookie.

And the rookie's tried at all. Oh, yes. Right. And you have learned over the course of a career that the safer, more effective thing to do was you have chosen humanity, not because you're into unicorns and rainbows and, you know, it's all about, you know, crystals, you know, you've chosen humanity because you have learned, you're in uniform. Yes. You have learned that it is better,

“that it works better. It works so effectively. I spent 10 years as a hostage negotiator and it was”

some of the most incredible and rewarding work that I've ever done. You want to talk about talking

to people on the literally the worst day of their lives where they have nothing to live for and they want to hurt themselves or someone else. It's very stressful. It's a very demanding and challenging environment to work in. But every time I found that just me being Angela and not being officer Averit really went a long way. And it helped to calm the situation, it helped to diffuse the situation. What I've learned from you today is that the real value of creating that really strong

corporate culture inside a policing agency where cops can say I made a mistake or ask for help or say I'm struggling without any fear of humiliation or retribution. That the real value of that is that their ability to use their discretion goes up in the marketplace when they're in the field. Yes. And if the corporate culture is my way or the highway, if the corporate culture is lack of psychological safety for the rank and file you know that nobody trusts the leadership. If the

corporate culture is statistics, statistics, you do as I say. Then what happens is when they go out

in the field they're going to treat the general public the same way that it's always going to be

efficient. That's always going to be you shut up and sit down because I'm the authority and you do as I say. Their ability to have discretion goes down when they work in that kind of corporate culture because the ability to treat or see someone or try something different or new that ability to use your wisdom and your experience. Your life experience like because a rookie is very different than a veteran. Right? Yes. You don't want to get pulled over by a rookie. You're getting a ticket. Right?

If they're training. Yes. But the point is is in a in a healthy corporate culture the wisdom and experience of that police officer is more likely to get used in the field. They know they know and I think that to me is what I've learned here. That is one of the great values which is you know when to turn it on and when to turn it off. Yes. You know from experience when it's probably going to work and when it's probably not going to work and though you will make mistakes on one side of the other

for the most part you're going to have more success than not and you've got 28 years to prove it.

“Yes. And that's what I've learned here which is if we want our cops to show discretion and use discretion”

if we want our cops to be make good decisions on how to diffuse a situation or make a situation go better than it could then if you have a healthy corporate culture that that result is more likely to happen. And so we have to support the teaching of leadership to police and police leaders. We have to help police who believe that change can happen on what a good corporate culture looks like and how to build it if we want our police to use their discretion wisely in the marketplace. That's what I want.

I agree. Thank you for that. I work or have worked with some of the most courageous

incredible human beings on our federal police officers. And so I just want to make sure I close

with that statement that the majority of our police officers are phenomenal human beings. They need support from people like me, the police chiefs, from people like you and our community, from organizations like the curve. They need our support. But I can be more proud to be a police officer

Thank you. You also know that I'm cynical whenever police chiefs come out after a scandal or after a violent excessive violence and the press conference usually goes something like this, which is most cops are good cops. And I understand that's usually for the for the local audience.

But the reality is yes, most cops are good cops and I want the good cops to stand up and say

“we want better for our profession and the bad cops are ruining it for the rest of us. And I think”

the good cops, the most cops are good cops. There's an accountability. I want most cops who are better good cops to demand better leadership training for themselves and their bosses. Yes. I want the good cops, the most cops who are good cops to demand that they get to come to work and feel psychologically safe and work in an environment where they can say I made a mistake. I need help. I think I need more training. I am not having a good day. I want those most cops who are good

cops to demand all the things that are necessary to raise to raise the bar. And maybe they will now. And maybe they will. Have a couple extra questions for you. OK. Law enforcement is very hierarchical. What advice do you have for young people not used to climbing the ladder? I would say build your network. It took me a very long time to realize that. I was very siloed, right? I worked at this one police department. These are the people that

I worked with. And I care about nobody else. And then one day I was like, who do I call when I'm in trouble? I'm not going to talk to my beat partner because maybe the beat partner is the problem. And so I started sending myself to different training classes as sort of meeting people. And now I have this amazing incredible network of people. When I'm struggling or I have a problem, I'm like, hey, I need some help right now. I love that I have that. I want that for everyone.

So as someone who wants to climb the ranks who was maybe new in this profession,

“build your network. Don't be afraid to say yourself to training. And I think don't be afraid to”

speak up for yourself, right? Now don't be an organizational terrorist. So don't be that guy that wants to be negative just to be negative. But when things aren't right, say they're they're not right, right? Like don't engage in that group think you might be an outlier. You might be a little bit of an

outcast at first, but always stand up for yourself. That would be my advice. It's good advice.

Any life hacks that you have that have just made work or just life a little easier, any little life hacks that you can share that I can learn from you? I think my life hacks are really boring, honestly, boring like I love taking naps. Naps are incredible. And I can hear what has been back around laughing. I love taking naps. They recharge me. It helps me. Like a year or 20 minute power and everything. Well, I say 30 minutes at least. I mean, I know that they're supposed to be like a

“window or like nothing more than that. Like you're going to be. Yeah. I think having naps is phenomenal.”

I love watching TV. TV is so mindless for me. And it just helps me to escape. Right? I love hiking, going on walks. Like nothing that I'm doing is anything earth-shattering. But I will say the one thing that I do love. Love is cryotherapy. I know in a hate being cold, which is hilarious, but cryotherapy. It helps me to sleep great. It gives me mental clarity. And that's not nonsense. And I'm not working for a cryotherapy company. But it's the one indulgence that I think I have

that I just I love. So what I'm hearing is your life hacks are give yourself some grace. Do something mindless. Like something that allows you to be present, disconnect whether it's a nap, or a hike, or watching TV, and be very, very, very cold. Very cold. I love can you stay in there for it. I do like three minutes, which is a long time. Mitten's in a hat. Mitten's a hat. But for me, the way that I get through it is I dance. And I know I look like a crazy person.

So you're standing at a cryo chamber dancing? Yes, dancing. Definitely. And I sweat every time. Definitely look like a crazy person. I'm definitely crazy.

Angela, thank you so much for coming in. That's so appreciate it. This is amazing. Thank you.

A bit of optimism is a production of the optimism company, lovingly produced by our team, Lindsay Garbinius, Phoebe Bradford, and Devon Johnson. Subscribe wherever you enjoy listening to podcasts. And if you want even more cool stuff, visit Simonsonic.com. Thanks for listening. Take care of yourself. Take care of each other.