Are Psychedelics the Key to Living Forever? (ft. Bryan Johnson)

- Yeah, it's good to see you. - How are you feeling?

“Maybe just share with us what you did a few days ago.”

- Yeah, I did a, I did five MEO DMT,

which is the most powerful psychedelic on the planet.

Some are between five and 10 times more powerful than DMT. And so yeah, it's been 48 hours. I'm still learning how to talk about it. ♪ I'm doing all of you ♪ You know what, many of the biggest tech CEOs

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Go to eightsleep.com/allin and use code allin for up to $350 off your pod purchase today. (upbeat music) Before we get into your experience, why did you choose to do it?

Two things, one, mostly is a longevity experiment. So when I started this project five years ago, the approach we had was go through all the scientific evidence ever published on health and longevity, try to find the interventions that have the best evidence.

And for effect size and the videos went down and list from top performing on down. So of course you start with exercise, nutrition, sleep. And you work your way down to things like hyperbaric oxygen therapy and sauna and then repomize him performing.

And so we never actually had on our radar psychedelics.

They were always either an ancient medicine, being used in ritualistic practices or being pointed out things like depression or anxiety and certain trials. But it was never understood as a rejuvenation protocol, something that was for anti-aging.

And so we found a pre-conocletal evidence in mice on psilocybin, we thought, that's interesting. And so we did the world's most studied, the most quantified experiment doing psilocybin. Three doses at 25 milligrams of psilocybin.

Which were pretty high doses. Yeah, it's a clinical dose. They have very, very close to a hero dose. And we found that we think it's a rejuvenant longevity therapy. Let's get to that data in a minute.

But then you decided to try five MEO this weekend. Yes. Walk me through the experience because you televised the whole thing. It was live streamed.

You looked amazingly calm. Going into it and going through the process. Walk us through your experience.

“Yeah, I think those who have done five MEO”

would probably relate with me that it feels like an impossible task to explain what it's like. So that caveat said, I'll give it a go. I'm stunned. Absolutely floored, speechless.

You basically experience raw consciousness and raw intelligence.

It's this. So whatever, when I say these words, take these words that I commit to you, take that idea, multiply it by a thousand, and then move out infinite depth, infinite width

and then dimensions. And that gives you kind of like a rough map of the size and space that you deal with. And it was incredibly hard. Because you get blasted into this space that is so foreign.

You don't even know what's happening. It happens very quickly. You inhale it. I did 9 milligrams of intramuscular and then 17, 18 of vaporized. And it hits you within 10 seconds.

You're just out your out. And so what happens is you get in that space and then the visual changes every very little visual. You see it on DMT, it's a very visual. You'll meet the like the alms or whatever else.

This is not a visual experience. But you get in this world and you lock in to basically you either panic because you feel like the gates of hell are going to open that the stream of existence is going to just tear you to shred.

It's going to shard you. And if you give up, like break your brain. Yeah, you feel like it's going to threaten your sanity. It's going to chop you up into little pieces. And so in that moment, you have to say,

do I try to wrestle this? And I need to just wait it out until it's over. Or you just relent, you say yes.

“And you have to, in that moment, you have to say yes so thoroughly.”

You have to release all attachment, all preconditions, all want, all desire. If you release self, ego, control. Just have to just relent entirely. And then when you do that, it opened up this

unimaginable bliss and euphoria. And they get this like a V1 to try to explain this. But if I had list out the most dynamic experiences

or getting married or having a child or overcoming a difficulty or, you know, stay your list of things. This is without question, the most dynamic experience I've ever experienced as a human.

Does the internal chatter, the internal monologue of the ego turn off, does it? So you can't hear yourself speaking. How do you rationalize what's going on if you don't have a dialogue going on?

It's this visceral feeling. Like you're your hyperware of what's happening.

It's not like you block out in the first light.

We think of very high dose. You don't really know what's happening in the first few minutes. But then you kind of come to your hyperware of everything. It's not visual.

But it's this, you're in the depths of existence. Like this. It's just the most majestic experience, achievable by a human, by a intelligent life. I just can't imagine anything more miraculous.

You've studied the biology, the biochemistry.

“What goes on in the brain as this molecule hits your neurons?”

It means like it won. It completely dissolves your default mode network. Let's describe what that is. So like, this is the engine that constructs self and ego. And so as you rumenate, you're going through,

thinking through your day, what's next? Is that my feeling? Yeah, what should I be doing right now? The constant conversation. So I feel bad about myself.

Do I feel like I'm my shy, do I feel bad about whatever? You're doing this rumination stuff. Kids don't have this rumination loop. Their default mode network is this quiet.

And as you age, you basically build up this default mode

network into more different patterns. And so as you age, your experience of reality becomes increasingly narrow. You have these big ruts that form. And so you can just see people in their patterns

like how open a child is to say like very random things. And as adults, you're just very, you're shut in. Like when I did, still Simon, one of the reasons why we did it is because it does have this effect

“where it dampens the default mode network.”

And we could pick this up with Colonel, the brainer face. You can see how the default mode network weakens. So basically, think of the brain like a globe with airports scattered about. And you have certain traffic patterns like New York to London.

You have a certain number of flights every day. That's like a very strong connection. But New York to some small town in Arkansas has a very low traffic map.

And so when you do something like Silicib and it basically

takes the airports, picks them up. And the repositions are in the world. So it's just all scrambled. So the traffic patterns are at the same. And then over the time, neurons don't physically move,

but the activity shifts around, exactly. Then neurons are a little bit more random. And they normally would be which arguably drives neural plasticity causes those neurons to reach out for new connections.

And when new connections are made, new behavior is new ways of thinking emerge. - Exactly. - Coming out of these therapeutics. It's a fair way to describe it. - Exactly, right.

“So you look at my brain on Silicib and from Colonel,”

you see my patterns before. Like the New York to London connection. You see my brain afterwards. And it's exactly what you said. New patterns are emergent.

The old ones have quite a down. So like a new map of connectivity. And so we saw that happen. And that does generate a lot of neural plasticity. And obviously this neuroplasticity rewiring these connections

in the brain is what allows trauma victims or folks that have a certain wiring that they keep repeating in their brain, which causes the trauma and the anxiety and their lives to get rewired.

And then that trauma and that anxiety feels like it dissolves their melts away. Is that a fair? - Exactly, right. - Yeah. - Yeah. And so this has been documented in Silicibane.

It's kind of well understood. How did you connect that Silicibane data to an effort in longevity? Or was this just like a random idea? Let's try it out.

- Well, so we saw some mouse data that it had these effects. It also showed reduced inflammation. So we said like this is interesting because most longevity therapies do something with inflammation, right?

Like inflammation is the killer. So if you can lower inflammation to very good sign, if you can do something that makes the brain more youthful and takes down those little big gruts, that's used also useful.

What we found at Silicibane though is that it had we found a first-in-human observation. It had this metabolic reset in the brain where my blood glucose before this was in the top 99.5% tile of all the population, okay?

After it went to the top 99.9% tile. Like to move my blood glucose to that level is very, very hard. And but it basically like not like metformer where you're doing something in blood glucose. They just had a reset across the body.

Also changed my microbiome. So we saw a full-on effect. So then we said, okay, if that had that consequence, five Mio may have some similar characteristics.

Exactly. So there's like there's a certain animal evidence. But it's the similar dynamics of like, can you take the brain?

And can you basically like smooth out the barnacles

that accumulate? And five Mio DMT compared to Silicibane, like just absolutely like molested clean my default mode network, okay? We felt like Silicibane dampens it.

Like it softens it, but this thing just annihilated my default. - Turn it off, just leave it. - Yeah. - It just doesn't run the same way. - Like let's burn example like this morning,

I woke up, catching myself laughing in a dream. I have not laughed in a dream. I don't even know whenever I've ever laughed in a dream. But that is, I have to, I woke up. I was like, that's really weird.

Like I don't remember laughing. I looked it up and like that is a characteristic of a child. - Right. - So you are restored to this child-like state. And I mean, the past couple days,

I have felt child-like, you know? Yesterday morning, I felt that, you know, that emergent excitement, the bubbling of like today's so exciting, I'm gonna do new things. I'm gonna have new experiences that you're just excited

about all things. I haven't felt that. I don't even know it, you know, for so many years. So like it really was profound on every layer. And I see it, and I'm stumbling too,

'cause I don't even know how to talk about it yet. During the day, you're hanging out, you're walking around. Is your brain having the same normal chatter that it did before? Or do you think that there's a persistent change

in that default mode network? - Yeah, definitely change. Like, I was just by partner Kate yesterday. And we, I did something that made her upset. And so like, in that situation, you know,

when couples are in that moment,

“you have like this negotiation, how do I sort this?”

And it all just became so clear to me like when children have a fight, you have it out. And then just like, done, yeah, and you move on. But then adults take that and they like package it up and they're gonna weaponize it, be like,

I got something on you. But I'm like, move it, I'm gonna move the chess pieces and try to leverage this. And um, or they store it up like a snake in one of those things that pops out all the time.

- Yeah, exactly. - Yeah, exactly, yeah. And so like we had this that I just felt um, absolutely like no need to escalate or to defend or to like, it was just easy.

And um, it was a breakthrough in our relationship

where I was able to communicate with her in a way. And so it's like laughing in my sleep, it's how I deal with my partner when I walk around. I just feel so much, I, I feel so much more funny. You know, like my ability to make quips that are just

immediate, you know, like, so yeah, I just feel renewed as a person in a way that I just really didn't imagine. - You had you tried hallucinogenics before you started your longevity path a couple of years ago?

- Yeah.

“- And did you do that recreationally or therapeutically?”

- It was mostly therapeutic in that. - Yeah. I had sold my company, branch of M.O. I got a divorce. I left the Mormon church and I was trying to remap like what is life, who am I, what do I do?

So is in that rebuilding stage where I just dabble to like, you know, I did, I did ketamine at colonel. So one of our first studies at colonel is we said, ketamine was an up and coming therapy for depression. And we pose the question, what happens when you do ketamine?

And so we did the world's most extensive measurement of ketamine was colonel before during and after. And so that was interesting. Like, and it had some kind of, you know, transient effect, but that's like a,

a, like a little league relative to five M.O. And so as you've gone through this, maybe share a little bit of the MRI data that you're gathering and the other data mapping your logical effects. - Yeah.

- And tell us a little bit about what you've learned. - So far, nothing. I have my subjective experience to share, but we have a structural brain MRI. We have a functional brain MRI.

We did colonel, which is like an optical interface and then I did real-time EEG capture.

“And we should just talk about, I think it's important,”

structural, you can see the physical brain, functional, you can see the activity in the brain. So neurons firing and neurons that are not firing. - Yes. - Right.

- And then electrical actions that are measured by a electrical device.

- Yeah, so basically like one of,

'cause the brain is very, so we've had a lot of success rejuvenating my heart and my lungs and muscle and body fat. But rejuvenating the brain is very hard. - Right. - And so this is why this is such a promising therapy.

So we wanted to look at the brain through every modality possible. We wanted to look at blood flow, structural molecular, the wave pattern form. So it's a very high fidelity quantification.

And so we'll see what the data comes out. I'm very excited, yeah. - You did this on psilocybin as well, right? - Yes. - You mapped the brain over time.

What did you learn there? - Traumatic restoration of youthful brain patterns.

- Yeah. - And what comes after five MEO? (laughing) - I mean, how far do you take this? - Yeah, honestly, I am so encouraged

by psychedelics. I, you know, again, in the community where I hang out,

psychedelics have always been understood

as, you know, it's like a retreat or it's like a ritual or you go to like, do various explorations. But never in the world alone jeopardy. It's never been understood as that thing. And now after seeing the data,

“I am, and of course, you have to be very careful”

when talking about psychedelics because they're extremely powerful. It's not like, go on, do them everybody, right? It's like, it needs to be done properly with licensed professional and needs to be done carefully.

The person needs to be in the right state. Like, it is not to be taken lightly. But I am more interested than ever in psychedelic compounds. They're just uniquely powerful. - There's some arguments to be made

that psychedelics can induce permanent psychosis. - Yeah.

- Cause functional changes and drive some people

that might be predisposed into schizophrenic states. - That's right. - How did you get over those risks because for a lot of people that would turn them off to trying psychedelics?

- Yes. - And it's not a non-zero percentage of people that suffer these consequences. - Yeah, I agree. And also people who have really bad trips

that leave them star or scarred. So it really is.

“And I think in part of it is what could be contributing”

to this is people who, for example, who have tried magic mushrooms. It's in a social situation, someone's got a bag. You pull out some mushrooms that's like, yeah, like ways, blank, and they pop it in. But they have no idea kind of mushroom strainer eating.

They don't know what the dose of psilocybin is.

So it's like unqualified, unsupervised, wrong set and setting. And so much about it, I think you can, they're the risk persists. But I don't think we've approached psychedelics with the appropriate rigor that we should to make it safe.

And so it's not to say that we can solve for the safety issues for all people. Some people might not be the appropriate candidate for it. But I think if we do create a safety structure around it, they could deliver the benefits people want

without with less of the risk. But definitely I agree to you. Like it's, again, it deserves all the caution in the world. - You think it's like neurogenic, neuroplasticity, trauma resolution.

I mean, what is the way that this is gonna be allowed to become call it a medical therapeutic that can be more broadly trialed. And then eventually figure out how to bring it to people without it being carrying all the risks

and burdens that it goes today? - I mean, if I just subjectively compare my experience with five of them, you know, having a better diet and exercising every day and sleeping well and doing the sauna, doing hyper-recoxion therapy,

this was more efficacious than all of them in terms of the reset of me as a human. It just is incomparable. And I guess I'm really left pondering and made for this molecule to have such a gigantic impact.

Now like how long will it last? What's the decay curve like? You know, well, I find I become the former Brian within 30 days, 60 days, so I have to repeat this again, I don't know.

But it really is, you know, when you sleep well, you feel great. You exercise great, but nothing like what five M.O. did in terms of the reset of me as a human. - So let's just talk about the consequences outside of the physiological, which is life.

There are lots of stories in friends that I have that, and people that I know, that have tried a heavy psychedelic, like an ayahuasca or something. They were the CEO of a company, and then they quit their company

and they go off to the jungle, leave their family, divorce their, their partner, make such dramatic life changes because their perspective has been shifted so much

“that they reevaluate what matters in life”

to such a degree that they give up a lot of the things that matter before. In the wake of that, there are people that feel their a victim of that behavioral shift, the investors in the company, the employees,

the family members, et cetera. Can you just talk a little bit about those broad risks because we've seen it, and I don't know if you've seen the same, but friends that have kind of like said, I have this new perspective, I'm given up my life.

- I've seen the same thing, and I won a investor told me that he even put it in the deal docs, that if we invest, you're not gonna do these psychedelics. They wanted to minimize the risk profile, it's a thing. - In your deal, in an investment in you?

- No, I just hope it could because I've been doing this. People bring this up as a topic of conversation. And so they say like, I see you're doing this for longevity, but I've seen so many examples where people put money in and you lose the founder.

Like they're off, they're not everyone's high and dry.

that they can't do this for the duration of the company.

And so it is a thing, and I have nothing to say about it other than I know it happens. Also, I would say that most people in the tech world that I'm familiar with, again, they've done this in retreat centers or in social environments.

It's not quantified, it's not set and setting, it's a different thing. But I will say like, I guess me as a person what I'm trying to focus on, I came back even more motivated to do what I'm doing now.

I don't have a desire to go off in the woods, and live that kind of life, it emboldened me to work on these things. No question about it, you do have a dramatic shift

“in perspective, and it's very important.”

- Thanks a very important philosophical question. Who am I? - Yes.

- If I'm defined by my experiences,

it roughly equates to my neurons or wired in a way, that's a consequence of my experiences. And if I go in and take a drug in in a few hours, rewire all my neurons, am I the same person? - Yeah, what makes Brian Brian?

You can maybe recall some memories of Brian prior to taking the psychedelic, but Brian as a person has been rewire, yes. Are you a different person now? And what does that say about, are we ever a persistent person?

- Yeah, right. - Yeah, your question is spot on, probably the most dramatic reconstruction of your 60 plus trillion cells, than anything you can do in life.

Maybe like a near-death experience, it would maybe be close, but it's a dramatic rewire in a view as a human. - Your values can change, too. - That's right.

And you could judge the values pre and post, right? You could judge values ascribed to you by a religion, or perhaps values ascribed to you by responsibility to family members, children, spouses, partners, what have you abandoned them after you go through this change.

So your values have changed, is it right or wrong? - That's right.

“- I think it's another important question”

that comes out of all of it. - Great, and like you know, like you now think about that, that's the frame where the world changes the certain speed. Now you take the world where it's changing faster. So we now know that it's hard to predict

what's gonna happen two weeks from now, or a month, right, like things are changing very quickly. And so now you come up with this practical question, can humans change fast enough? And the world where AI is the dominant engine of innovation?

And so in that case, you may want psychedelics as your ally to say, as a human, I'm struggling to like move with the change. - Yeah. - And so there's potentially a, where it flips from a liability

to an asset where now I do want that restructure changing, even though you have some tell risk of, like maybe my priorities will shift. - I think you have profound what I would call psycho-flexibility.

And I think most people don't, they have either a disinterest in changing who they are overnight, or they're fearful of the ramifications or the experience and that they wouldn't go through it. How far would you take it, would you wire yourself up

to a neural link or neural enhancement device that would give you the ability to have information on demand and maybe change your personality and capacity as a human through an implant? Would you consider doing something like this?

- Yes. - You would, would you consider a transgenic system where you basically take a plasma, which would then express a set of proteins in your body and change gene expression profiles and cells in your body

“and basically can rewire you as a different person?”

- Yes. - Is there a limit to what you would trial? - Interesting. Where do you think that comes from? - I think I find it to be the most exciting configuration

of life, the ability to play on the frontier, novelty and expedition and challenge.

That's really my, did you always have it

or are you responding to childhood suppression of those experiences? - Probably it's probably an overcompensation of trauma response, like most things are. And so as a child, I lived in a very structured

religious environment where things were cemented. Like here's the story, here's the plan, here's what you do and what you don't do. And so yeah, maybe it's probably just, I'm now a flipped in the opposite.

And so I mean, that's probably true that I really, I don't trust my internal generation of reality. No, I know I'm always making things up. I've got 188 Chronicle biases, like all humans do. So I'm generally suspicious of all things all time

and I don't take myself very seriously. So I just find the frontier place base to be like, right now, I mean, what you're doing in building companies, like you just open up a toolkit and say like, what can I build and how do I modify?

And so I agree to you. I do have a strong proclivity towards openness to play. - Do you find that you've been challenged

as you explore and enhance yourself so much, do you give up the responsibility to others around you who may be our dependent on you or in need of you? - Yeah, I have three kids. And so I do think about them a lot.

“And I mean, a father is a really important thing to me”

and it's an important part of my identity. And so that has not changed.

So I've never vacillated on that or changed

than my disposition towards that. For those around me, I guess, fortunately I have a social group that just says go and play. There's really no one in my life that tries to claw me back. There's no velcro.

It's just all encouraging. And so that, I guess I feel very fortunate that everyone around me. And they're willing to take the risks. I mean, this is, when I sat down for five M.E.O.

I mean, my partner Kate, like, she's got a ton of risks. Like, what if it goes poorly? What if I change my perspective? What if something bad happens? So, well, one could make an argument

that taking that degree of risk where something could have gone wrong, the people around you are enabling versus being supportive. - That's right, I mean, that's a consequence, but let's shift topics to other modalities

for longevity. - Yeah. - What else is on the horizon? So you've had this profound set of experiences with psychedelics.

You've documented in a very extraordinary, an exquisite fashion, all of the other things that you've been doing with interventions, other things that are on the horizon. You're either excited about

or that you're considering yourself. - Yeah, I mean, two of the ones that we've spoken about, South therapy in Gene Therapy. - Yeah. - Yeah, they're all in the pipeline.

So, they're not ready yet. We've knocked out all the stuff you can do today. Like, we've gone through it all. Then it all, the next gen therapies are just not there yet. So we're looking at mitochondrial rejuvenation.

I think that's incredible.

“I think mitochondrial augmentation therapy,”

and there was a paper I saw where in order to get the mitochondria in the cell, they coded the mitochondria in effectively a red blood cell envelope, which made it more transportable into cells

and less attacked by the immune system. - Exactly. - Which is incredible. And I'm a big, big, big believer in this course of therapy.

I mean, it's gonna be a whole therapeutic modality that no one has even recognized. - I agree. - We have our first mitochondrial therapy lined up. So, you're like 99.9%, you need someone

who's like 48.7% to try the mitochondrial augmentation. And particularly, I think they tried it in Parkinson's patients, Alzheimer's patients, that's where you can really see profound shifts in certain metrics for you. It's like 99.9 to what?

- Yeah, yeah, I had the mitochondria, you know, of a 48 year old, right? So like, what is it? - What is siblings? - You could go to your siblings' child

because the mitochondria is path-meternally. - Yeah, because it's in the XL. - So it's the mother's mitochondria. So if you go down in the mother's line, maternally, if you have a sister who has a kid,

“they're gonna have very young mitochondria.”

You can take a little blood sample and then grow their mitochondria extensively and use that as a biological match. - This is a perfect extension. I've had a blood boy as a son.

- Yeah, so now I'm just gonna go to the extent of family and be like, guys, it's a family project. - Yeah, family project, exactly, yeah. - Well, that one's super interesting. - We also have one.

- Dude, we're doing, I'm now building-- - Sorry, are you gonna do your own mitochondrial transplantation? You're gonna build a bioreactor

that you're using working with one of the third parties

that are like a third company. Yes, I'll do a blood draw in the next week or two. They'll spin up and they'll do it. - Yeah, I'll do it. - Okay, yep.

- So you're gonna get your mitochondria, which have some, you know, the problem with mitochondrias, you know, is mitochondrial DNA degradation over time. - I'm right, it accelerates for certain people, but that way, if you go back to a young person,

you have young mitochondria. - Exactly. - But then you're gonna multiply yours out. - Yes. - And probably select a little bit.

- Exactly. - For healthier ones. - Yeah, right, okay. - And then sort of back up. I mean, it's exploratively, we don't know.

We're one of the first. They're in phase two now. - Do you sprint? - Yeah, I do. - So you could probably score.

If you did it intramuscular, like mitochondrial, you could sprint your score. - That's a great idea. - Yeah, thank you. - Yeah, I want you.

- Yeah, that would be a great way to measure it rather than just a basic biomarker perspective. Be really interesting to see. - Yeah. Sprinti is one of the most underappreciated

on Japanese therapies. - Yeah, I don't do it. - Oh, man. - I've got the age of a 74-year-old, roughly. - I'm sorry, I'm not keeping track with you.

Would you consider, or have you looked at any plasmids where you take a gene as DNA put in your body and then that gene makes a protein in your body that there's something? - Like the one we were looking at in the Foxle 3 expression.

- Yeah, exactly. So the Mesicomal stem cells package up with the Foxle 3 delivery, that showed that over 50% of tissues get in that rejuvenation.

- It's unbelievable, it's like the unbelievable. - It's the best demonstration in the entire world. - That's perfect for tissue regeneration. Like as a particular application set, tissue regeneration, using that sort of system,

seems like a no-brainer. - It's like, yeah, it's safe, right? - Yeah, yeah. - Yes, we shot to that Chinese professor.

I would love--

“- You reach out to the Chinese professor.”

- Yeah, it's awesome.

- We said then paper, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, it's awesome.

- So, any respond? - Yeah, awesome, yeah, good. - So we, I'd love to do that. I'd love to actually build it ourselves. But that's like a two-year project.

So, hey, I can help make it fast. - That's true. - Yeah, that's true. - Hey, I have the project manager for these sorts of programs is--

- You know, that's true, yeah. - We spoke about this six months ago. - Yeah. - And things are so different. - So different now, six years later,

and in terms of standard up. That was cool. So I think that's a good option, but also I'm doing Brian Johnson organoids. So, we took my IPSB IPSEs.

We now have youth, plural, potent stem cells. - Exactly. - So, you took yourself, turn them into stem cells. - Yeah, yeah. - So now we're doing Indish.

So now we have like a Brian Johnson, heart, liver, lungs, and now we're gonna try molecules on me and Indish. - So you've got lots of, so let me just walk the audience through this.

So you take cells off of your skin or something. - What? - Blood. - And then you put these yamanocca factor proteins on those cells, causes those cells to become stem cells,

which means they can then turn into any other cell. - Yeah. - And then you put other proteins on them to turn them into a heart cell, or a isel, or what have you.

- Exactly. - And now you've got a store of these tissue-specific Brian Johnson cells that you then use for, like you can say, "Okay, what if you give Brian Johnson "blank your drug?

"What happens? "Is a good, is it bad? "What are the side effects of all this?" - In the P3D, you put the drug in there. - Exactly.

- See what happens. - Okay, so you just simulate all these experiments. So now you get the advantage of time of acceleration. I have like, what to take, why, what dose? - That's awesome.

- What combinatorial things to consider. - Yeah. - And so we have the organized stood up.

We haven't done our first take shit.

- Yeah. - So that's interesting because now I have to do this old school methodology, like put it in my body, wait to see what happens, is a good, is a bad, what, you know, how does it affect everything else?

- Yeah, totally. - That's totally. - I don't know, we'll see, it's cool and concepts. It would be TPD if it actually works, so I'll see. - Have you tracked any of the alternatives

to Yamanaka factors, the factors discovery work that's going on? And do you think there's anything worth testing at this stage? - Yeah, I'm an investor in New Limit.

So I've talked to them about the weather at and Blake and Brian's company. - They've done, they've made remarkable progress. - Yeah, they figured out how to computationally solve the discovery process.

- Yeah. - And so the much faster than they initially thought. And so that's very encouraging. - You know, the big challenge with Yamanaka factors is always dosing.

If you overdose a cell, a one cell, that cell can become a cancer cell and take off as a tumor. - Yeah.

“- So the sensitivity that you need to have”

to get the right number of the factors, which is a protein into the cell, needs to be perfectly tuned. So I have a theory that this will end up being solved by cellular switches.

That will end up putting a machine into the cells that can turn on or off the protein synthesis at the right dosing based on the measurement of gene expression in the cell. That's my theory on where this will end up.

- That makes a lot of sense. - Any other control mechanism will be inadequate. - That's right. - The females will just-- - All you need is one error in your rubble.

- Yeah. - But it is the most profound. I think technology that humanity's dealing with today besides AI, we're not quite there with fusion, which I would argue is probably a distant third,

but it is very powerful with possible.

- And in the future, like I think we'll look back and we'll see GLP ones as the first big drop. You know, like what? I can just inject myself and like it solves hunger and-- - Totally.

- And then the second will probably be something like New Limit or one of these folks. So one of these Plasman-based folks will be therapies where it will show real life dramatic changes. - Totally.

- And then humanity will shift as like longevity being a vision of sci-fi, rich people pursuit to something that is truly glad to like the conversation on the temptation towards socialism, right? Like if you can feel robust in your ability

to pursue life and be healthy and vibrant and in control, I think these things would have dramatic changes inside, not just in health, but like-- - Well, any form of abundance, whether it's abundance and food,

in energy and housing, in mobility and lifespan, the more abundance people get the happier they are. - Yes. - We're improving abundance in the world, the better we are going to live

as a group of people together on planet Earth. - Exactly.

“- The happier we will all be with each other, right?”

- I think like honestly, like a lot of the external conflict only comes from internal unhappiness. - 100%, yeah. So if you look at the general malaise of like American society, like no wonder things just (beep)

like you've got 84% of people have met a biologist order. Well, about 40% of people are obese. Like we're just in really poor health. Nobody's sleeping. Everyone's on their phone.

Like mental health issues, like no wonder you have the proclivity towards these kinds of outcomes. Like so if you could get the health and check, it changes the psychological decision of you, your community, your country.

Like you have much more of a can-do attitude. Like I can't take on the world, but I can do hard things, but we're not feeling well. Like it's just everything, it's just so much harder. - Yeah, 100%.

And so in light of all of these new therapeutic modalities

and have these profound effects,

why continue to tinker with psychedelics?

“Like are they as profound or are they a compliment?”

Or like how do you think about fitting all of this portfolio of things that you're looking at together? - Yeah, I mean I guess the question is, I forget on the Foxle 3, you start out, I don't know if they saw brain Medjuvenation.

Didn't see that, I did not see that. And I don't remember, I mean it is a very complicated organ. - Yeah, exactly. - And it's insane, it's very hard to reach. You know, you can grow muscle tissue back

and you can grow skin tissue back

“and it's kind of like, okay, I grew a little ex.”

Like if you grow the neurons back maybe in the wrong way,

like we don't know 'cause it's never been done before.

- Yeah. - So understanding the consequence of neuro regeneration is like. - So like if the role in that play, like, you know, maybe still side been a 5MEO

won't be meaningful for basic functions of the body, but maybe it's the out performer in euphemous of your disposition towards reality. Like one thing I'm apprehensive about is you're on 48. And so as you start climbing to your 50s, 60s,

you do really narrow that your ambition goes from, I can do anything to start narrowing down further and further. And I worry about using a youthful disposition of a can-do attitude of anything as possible. And maybe that's the role of psychedelics.

But just get a wash of like the snap back of like, I can, and I can bounce. That definitely been the case for me.

“So I think they do probably play a really important role”

of like, they're probably a set of things that for certain people that will,

basically like, I feel like it was like 30, 40 years

of psychological rejuvenation. You know, it's like to transport me back to a child like state. That is insane. I don't get that from the sauna, or from eating well, or for a stupid way, I'm still.

Right. So it's just unique. Yeah, amazing. Well, listen, I'm gonna go drink alcohol and eat carbs and stay up late.

I don't know, what are you gonna do? Yeah, I'm gonna go to bed on time. Yeah, okay. To do it my one-dollar team. Yeah, you do you.

Yeah, yeah, but then you were used well. Enjoy it. Yeah, I appreciate it. This has been great. That's it.

Thanks. Yeah, that was awesome. That was great.