Can AI Help Us Live 250 Years? The Future of Human Longevity

Orwell was an optimist, because he never understood the power of machine learning.

“I would describe myself definitely as a protophilic techno optimist.”

So I'm really interested in how technologies shape our behaviours, our relationships, the way that we can see them ourselves, what's possible. She touched it every morning before sunrise, a small golden ring, the only evidence anyone had ever chosen her. Then one fine day, she took it off. For me, a boy with no shoes, no future, anyone could see. No proof he was even worth the price. My mother didn't pawn a ring the day. She pawned the only story she had that mattered to her. And she buried on a story that didn't exist yet. That was my story.

I grew up in a single room in South India in the slums, dirt floors and walls that couldn't keep out the rain or the doubt.

But my mother never looked at those walls. She never looked past them. That's not hope, because hope waits.

She chose a direction and walked towards it. That's called orientation. Fire didn't ask our ancestors if they were ready for it. Neither did electricity or internet or the splitting of the atom. The future never asks us the permission. Right now, someone is designing the world, your grandchildren are going to inherit. What would you give up to live long enough

“to meet your great, great grandchildren? What would you give up to never forget your mother's face?”

What if the future offered you everything that you ever wanted? And it costed you everything that you had? My mother couldn't read. She couldn't plan. She couldn't prepare. But she knew what every future has had forgotten. The future belongs to those who face it. Not the ready, but the ones who are oriented towards it. This show won't describe the future for you. It will drop you right into it and ask you questions that are thought provoking. Who will you be when you get there?

“What will you hold on to? What will you let go? What will you pawn and for whom?”

My mother is gone now. But every morning I think about a woman touching a gold ring in the dark, choosing a direction, choosing to believe. She couldn't have imagined the machines that think or lives stretched beyond two centuries. But she gave me something no algorithm would ever replicate. The courage to face what I cannot predict. This is tomorrow today. The future is already here walking towards you. Turn and face it together.

Thank you for season's hotel. I'm a deeply thankful for making the space ours for today. Thank you so much. In July 2024, researchers at Imperial College in Duke University gave elderly mice a single injection. It blocked one protein. The mice lived 25% longer. Not just

a life, but it was healthier, stronger, fewer cancers. Google just paid 571 million dollars to

combined two existing drugs. The mice lived 35% longer. Harvard's David Sinclair predicts

“an age reversal pill by 2035. 100 bucks a month. Take it for four weeks and get biologically”

younger. Can you believe that the longest verified human lifespan is 120 to years. But Sinclair believes it could double. So I'm not looking at 35 years anymore. I may be looking at 250 years. 250 years means seven different carriers. It means you're going to see great, great, great, great grandchildren and there'll be probably older than you. Till death do us a part. Suddenly means two centuries of marriage.

Would you take the pill? If death gives meaning, what happens when death becomes optional? My mother lived 70 years. She pond her wedding ring for my education. What would she say if I lived three times her lifetime? Would that honor her sacrifice or somehow diminished that? I came to this country with 34 dollars in my pocket. I built technology for

Fortune 500 companies. I filed hundreds of patterns. But I've never faced a question like this

“in my lifetime. What the hell am I going to do if I lived for 250 years?”

And that science isn't coming. It's already here. In this episode, we explore exactly that. Not whether we can live longer. But whether we should. And what it means for love, for purpose, for meaning itself. Because when the clock we've been always racing against just stopped ticking. Welcome to the inaugural show of tomorrow today. I'm super excited to have great guests. The purpose of this show is to evaluate the technology that is already

emergent amongst us. And what does it mean to the society in general? For my amazing guest,

I'd love for you guys to introduce yourself, Jason, Natalie and Kevin, that order. Why don't you introduce yourself, Jason? Sure. Sure, a phenomenal prominent figure and a celebrity and so glad to have you. But I would love for my guest to hear. Showing your own words like who you are. Yes, sir. Well, thank you. Thank you for having me. Hello, everybody. My name is Jason Silva and I'm a filmmaker, a digital, digital creator and very often a keynote speaker as well.

My background is mostly as a television presenter. I would say that my most high profile program was Brain Games, which was a TV show. I hosted for National Geographic Channel, did that for five seasons and that looked at, it was like a, you know, ABC's of neuroscience, was a kid, a show that kids and parents could watch together. And then I also hosted another show called Origins, which was about transformative technologies that changed humanity.

I would describe myself definitely as a pro-topian or a techno-optimist, which means I like to dream about the ways that we can use our technologies to extend our capacities. I'm passionate about human flourishing, which also includes mental health and so I feel like

paleolithic brains, medieval laws and godlike technologies is a bit of a problem. So I'm always

thinking about ways that which we can sort of uplevel our psyche's and souls and psychology so that we can better deploy these increasingly godlike tools. But ultimately I'm a dreamer and a romantic, fantastic, fantastic. Natalie, you're the rising star in the world of AI and social psychology and I'm really, really excited to have you. So love for you to actually

“educate our guests on your background, what do you do and why are you here from the first place?”

Well this is lovely opportunity, so thanks nice to be early guys. So my background is in psychology behavioral science and persuasive tech and so I'm really interested in how technologies shape our behaviors, our relationships, the way that we can see with ourselves, what's possible.

finding ways in which to tap into that which you most profoundly love and what gives us meaning and to make our decisions from a much more rooted place embedded in the idea of what is it that gives life vitality, not just our lives but also the wider living world. So to your human

“essence, I'm possibly more on the animist side and I think we have this precious moment in time”

where many of the crises that we face share roots and we get the opportunities now to have these kinds of conversations to robustly challenge one another and our assumptions to find pathways forward that can like you suggest, reduce human and life suffering and create a world which is much more regenerative, dignified and that creates a space for people to live meaningfully and that's going to be a pluralistic vision. Yeah.

Excited to have you, excited to have you and finally my friend here Kevin Brown, like you know

he's seated on the piano Kevin, like what are you doing to do this then? Sure, we're amazing to be here

“and to meet everyone so Shaker, you know, know each other for ten years and I've been looking”

at some of these topics from the technologists point of view. So I've been building and running companies and Silicon Valley for the last 25 years and you know really pretty you know, bluntable way by the impact of you know a technology I got to work on the early internet and saw that that you know big change you know I grew up analog so we went from analog to the internet and now we're on to something new and it's very interesting to be in the middle of it so I

started working on AI we were doing pre-AI things we back at ink to me in 1999 you know dealing with you know basically how do you look at the whole internet and you know use the meaning of web pages to categorize and start to take meaning out of the massive data. Start working on

a computer vision in 2013 so it's been you know I've always loved to be on kind of the early

edge of that technology and you know and now seeing what's happened last few years it's really just it's this accelerating curve and so it's both I say concerning in a scary time to be around but I'm also really driven by curiosity and I'm really curious to see you know what we can you know what we can do what what what's going to happen and and how can we really extract the best at it and that's something that is pretty exciting personally you know my you know favorite

things are I'm a musician so I play the drums I'm a chef I'd love to cook family so for me it's really that intersection of science and art that's quite interesting and especially when it brings people together those things I'm really excited about great so it's no coincidence that I have a futurist I have a social psychologist and I have a technologist and I am a dummy here

no so we're gonna have a lot of fun talking about the role of technology and basically how

“humanity can consume it so and this is a very important topic for me because I come from slums in”

India and somehow through my mother's blessing my father's like virtues that he had I got the escape velocity and I was able to get out and I was able to basically figure out like angels in my life like Kevin and others and they showed me the direction of what technology can do to a person and basically like what I want to get out of the show is to educate people on the choices that we have the agency that we have and where is really technology headed in the first

place because there's so much noise there's so much like hype like there's AI everywhere there's infrastructure like investment talk everywhere and like you know people are just going friends here about it and there's a lot of evolving emerging technology that has meaningful impact in our lives and sometimes scary implications that we haven't completed so I would love this conversation to be about that so we could educate people on how to embrace technology and what is the best use of

technology and what are we getting into okay

remember when till death do as part actually meant something now we're just beautifully stuck forever

“come on let's get the champagne ready before our guests arrive”

the first question I have for you guys Jason you know Jason and then Natalie and then Kevin what did you feed when you watched that movie? well I loved the futuristic world where it begins this sort of environment felt like this kind of futuristic house it also felt kind of like an apple store you know you can just feel the futuristic ambiance and they were about to celebrate it felt like an early evening feeling they looked vibrant and youthful and right away they're like happy 150

and so for sure my solar plexus got relaxed I was like oh my god that sounds amazing like to be

150 and beyond and there's no death and decrepit who did illness and terror I have a lot of anxiety related to mortality I have since I was a teenager and I've been dreaming dreaming about like an intervention that can come in time potentially to save my parents but my relationship with the

“transcendent as an artist still hasn't fully resolved my fear mortality I mean I think human beings are”

suspended in paradox but I don't know what comes after I'm pretty agnostic but what I do know is there's a lot of books that I want to read and certainly a single human life span is not enough I want to have many lives within my single life I want to live in many countries for two decades each you know I want to learn Japanese and then I want to move to Europe and then I want to hang out and safaris and South Africa but like for decades at a time and so from the beginning I immediately felt

sued by their youthful longevity and of course then as the story progresses then it becomes really interesting and thought provoking because it raises questions about what happens when we're ageless and we have these radically extended life spans to do then we have to have a negotiation about monogamy or the idea that we change and evolve like maybe we have many lifetimes so then maybe we have many marriages that each last 150 years and so I thought that was like a very

interesting and compelling thing I certainly as somebody many interests imagine that if we have radical longevity we're going to become definitely intellectually promiscuous we're going to have promiscuity in our careers and interests that are what not but I also think we might become polyamorous in a new kind of way so I don't you know I don't agree with the actions taken by the male protagonist where he was like I'd rather die than date somebody else I mean for all I know

“they can still stay friends with the ex and just go you know so that's how I was like what the hell”

you're going to choose death you know something I don't but yeah and I also the idea that the state would say that if you opt not to switch partners then punishing this death that seemed like I don't see why that would be the case like why doesn't it be so harsh you know if we have radical abundance then you should have like radical freedom of choice you know so that's the only part that then said well with you know that initial impression hmm that is so

interesting building on that I think one of the other things that struck me was how isolated the place was mostly because I think if we're thinking about an interconnected future where technology having had its foundations in connection so the internet connected people social media and normally connected people why would it be that people be living in really hyper individualised

secluded lives there are many reasons why that might be the case and so that was the first thing

that really struck me was this really enclosed space and then the idea that if you are living a life as the the couple suggest which is entwined they've been managing it for 150 years if you look at the sociology of it typically the couples who share a physical environment also shared got by them they share psychological traits memory is not stored within a single individual it's stored socially so you would have a shared cultural social history together the chances are

that if you have a partnership which grows and develops and you mentioned several lifestyles

intellectual and does et cetera if you have been with someone for 150 years or might imagine that

you would grow together with certain level of promiscuous you're feeding into the relationship and relationship experts will often talk about this desire for novelty on the one hand and for many areas on the other and you often end up partnering with someone especially in long term relationships

“where that balance is dynamic but it continues as an appetite throughout life so I think there's”

there's certain things that it raised for me this question of okay if you're with someone for 150 years where are the points of convergence what does it look like to have a dynamic fruitful curious life or are you at the other end of the spectrum where actually what you do one is routine and similarity and you have something which is predictable and nourishing and that way the state intervention thing was very like you're counting on pretty grim but then

also this sort of raises questions about how we make meaning and she said still death to us part there was a movie I can't remember what the name of it was trying to search for it's morning where everyone stays young and the thing that changes is the time that you're allocated based on the value that you provide society and so there's a scene where I can't remember who the actors were where these two actors come together and they look like their 30 but one is the mother

and one is a son and he's successful and has made all this money so he has all of this time the mother is tickling it's a cool in time and the mother's about to die because her borer is basically going down and he tries to reach her in time and she dies so it's things like that

there's always been value based on something that is life and whether it's a body that dies

“or time that runs out I don't know I think there's certain ways in which we can't cheat time”

we'll see just the initial thoughts and hopefully I would just say that I appreciate this insight about wanting novelty well wanting the familiar at the same time I always think of Joseph Campbell's idea of the womb with a view oh no it's actually a good idea I think he was talking about it and the idea of being safely held in a protected psychological environment

where things are predictable and familiar so you're safe but you're simultaneously having open her eyes if you can't get through it like if you're just in a ooooh okay okay Alan Ginsburg the beat poet from the 60's he used to be a big advocate for like psychedelic expansion of consciousness and he described his favorite headspace again talking about like the ideal psychological state as buoyant floating attention like a rubber duck in the bathtub of the

universe you'll be like that would better that's better okay you're like a rubber duck you're just popping along feeling groovy you're in the bath it's warm it's nice but it's the bath

of the universe you're like beholding galaxies you know so I just I've always wanted both of those

things because I love the expansion but I also love to feel safe to be going for me you know and so let me think of it and give it what what was you what did you feel yeah like so for me that there was a you know a feeling of helplessness of you know the you know perfection you know this biological sentence of health and youth and and so forth and then you know grinding into this machine that is annealeding and and and just doesn't care and and you know and it was

“interesting to see them deal with that and you know I think it taps into a little bit of what we're”

feeling these days of you know there's a lot of hidden algorithms hidden machinery that are you know our our driving us or changing our world or manipulating us and getting more complex to the point where it's hard even understand and our early experience experiments on this with social media for example have been mixed and so you know seeing the you know sort of this you know this kind of you know endgame kind of version of it really kind of brought back to me today the a little bit of

existential helplessness of that people are I think it to feel as things are changing more more quickly feel a little bit less grounded you know is the rubber duckie going over the waterfall like you know there's you know there's definitely you know some of that that that that was my emotional imprint but you know that that that sense of you know like the state knows best and but you know the question of any algorithm is what is it optimizing for yeah absolutely so my question to all the three of you

is so there's a lot of sublimality in the movie that we had put in and there was a lot of

they're dressed well and basically so they had freedom of choice in the way they had decorated things

“and like you know there's the pictures of them like you know in the hallway about all the memorable”

moments they had in life and they're happy and all that stuff and the guy who shows up from the state is dressed in dark and black right so like algorithms turning dark right and so and then when you look at the girl when she moves on she's in yellow she's moved on and the guy has a painless death utopian so my question to all of you is is the dystopia much more scarier than the utopia that you're seeing or the vice versa can we just have some definitions in terms of what when you're

talking about utopian dystopia yeah so the this and go to them like you know if you look at the

perfect like the guy is wearing a white suit yeah that's purity utopian the perfect world everyone is cloned the same way the all of the guys who are wandering around in the black jacket the guy who shows up the state guys they're all same they're unified in one system they're all thinking alike and the death is also perfect penis that's a utopian world where everything is perfect that is what like the promise of AI is but we are living in a dystopian world so what is more

scarier so to me there's something what you said about perfection the algorithm deciding for you

there is something about a frictionless predetermined optimized existence which reduces potentially

suffering in the moment you're talking about painless death yeah I haven't died yet I have

“experienced pain I think everyone on earth feels experienced even a moment of life or a”

experience some kind of suffering pain and what we don't wish our worst experience on other people nor will we necessarily want to relive them that's where we gain insight into compassion into ourselves our own limitations our capacity to love I think is connected with our capacity to feel you know the pain of ourselves and others and how we're cared for and I think things like heartbreak and death and loss they season a person and so I think that utopia that removes all of that friction and

potential for deepening and seasoning I'm not talking about unnecessary suffering I'm not talking about things like torture rate imprisonment those things that we can make different choices about I'm

“not talking about that um but something that removes all of that I think removes our capacity”

to grow into what our species can be they can experience that you know I'd rather watch a disturbing and redemptive film that takes me to all those places but still living a world where we sold cancer and my mom doesn't have to grow old and die and and maybe I'm trying to have my cake in you too like why not what's the mystery we're suspended in paradox I don't know where we came from I don't know where we're going so why not like like like my soul wants to

reconcile my desire for the multi-dimensional human life but at the same time not compromise on the finality of that kind of loss and grant that maybe I'm spiritually immature you know but but but maybe I just retain a childlike insistence on on our genius and our poetry like I love this idea of the truth beyond the literal grid you know like the idea that somehow fiction can be more truthful than reality you know you can tell me that objectively and empirically film is

120 minutes of like prerecorded and scripted illusion but the subjective experience of watching that film can be as real or more real than something that happens in the Euclidean meat space and altered space altered states of consciousness also hint at time dilation and a kind of presence that seems to go beyond the ordinary perception and and so yeah I just I agree with everything you're saying about the full range of human experience and still want to insist on

alleviating the kind of suffering that puts you on a deathbed versus like symbolic transformative

but does that also them in no birth not necessarily I mean you're talking about like overpopulation

related issues well you know you've turned people like pure demand is and recurts while let's talk about how overpopulation is myth and most of the world is empty space and you could fit the entire global population in the state of Texas and there's still be plenty of empty space the issue is distribution of resources but if you're imagining godlike technologies exponentially increasing capacities the idea that wouldn't be able to deliver resources I think

is contextual and technology is a resource liberating mechanism and so again I can I can

“find a reason to stick with my narrative that's what makes us human yeah be all have a perspective”

yeah Kevin what about you well so if you look at the spectrum of where we are to this kind of you sanitized utopia there's quite a bit of distance and so I would fall on let's roll the dice and you know and like let's let's let's crowd out cancer let's like you know sort of you know let's you know take maybe a little bit of risk of less you know seasoning you know because you know we you know we've all been through some seasoning that has made us

better in some seasoning that is you know damaged us and you know and we don't even know what that human experience will be in 50 years or 100 years what's the the the the human machine interface what's the human a machine to human like you know do we directly transmit our emotions like we don't know what that's going to mean and so there's a kind of the grapefomo you know I kind of want to see what what happens now being trapped in it where you you couldn't exit and the

government would never let you you know or your your trapped in consciousness and and an AI you know

sort of a computer and you can never get out like you know those are pretty bad sci-fi you know sort of themes by between where we are and you know this kind of sanitized utopia like I'm certainly curious and and I'm somewhat hopeful that there's upside you know I'm an entrepreneur like I kind of I operate on optimism and amrealism but you know so so for me there's at least this first part that you know let's knock out cancer let's you know let's see between feed people better

“like you know help everyone optimize their health yeah like you know and but I think there's”

real work to be done you know with these kind of discussions of what's it due to our character like you know the human you know hardware has evolved over you know 100,000 years and you know all 100,000 years of it have been infused with hardship so there is something you know I think really profound to what you're saying is how do you have those experiences so at 40 I almost died and a very bad bike accident it was real close and you know just you know two years ago

my wife had a massive brain tumor like and and you know mass surgery and then was able to like we got the best health care and was able to recover and his back she's like 95% she's doing

amazing and like so you know those those experiences yes you know they could have you know made you

you know kind of cynical or whatever I kind of chose the the glass have full and for me those were carpe dm moments of like hey I really value because like you know 40 was too young yeah

“you can just please yeah but that's how long you used to live you know not too many generations ago”

so we kind of take it for granted hey you know you don't live to 40 50 lived 80 and you know what about 120 like so I don't know yeah we may get to a point where we wish we weren't there but I'm too curious to take a look I mean the green left you know the green left shark like they found an ocean it's like almost 400 years old it's like not getting around you're like that's that goes around during the gilded age of the Dutch yeah yeah I mean look again the

question of not dying anymore talent is one thing but like the life span of the earth the life span of the universe these are dealing in proportions so much beyond us like how about like giving us you a couple hundred more years just to like feel you know inside and there's more books living more places you know like I so do you will let AI pick like someone that you want to live it and if AI tells you that stop loving that person and start loving someone else will you do that

I just I don't think that AI would have a reason to force that upon us given the fact that I just suspect my inclination is that what these technologies do is expand our possibility spaces you know like Kevin Kelly famously says like you know technologies of the whole edge sword but as long as it creates more choices in the end that's like a good thing and that seems like constraining choices

that that's the way it would go so so the cautionary note is that you know you know maybe AI is

going to tell us things but you know more likely it's humans using AI to tell us things and manipulate them maybe for their agenda yes and so that that that's a little bit of you know the the rich

“set of themes of the dystopian versions that that you know that that you know I think we need to”

be nervous about and and and how does that play out and so you know we have to get a little bit better at you know electing people you know that you know that that can be entrusted with the ever increasing power of that technology the fact that we can be so brilliant and so awful at the same time that like one human you can be like man this person reminds me that humanity can achieve anything

and then someone else could just be like wow like we haven't evolved at all like what a brute

this person is and the fact that our species produces individuals that can be both of those things continues to be the thing that haunts me the most yeah I think also there's also systemic question you're talking about people using technologies in service to certain ideas values motivations and thinking about longevity one of the things that you the one means about a few sort we'd science fiction or history books is that whenever there's been two things the longevity

of a system that produces ecological nooks if you like for certain people with certain character traced thrive so the masks and they're kind of a the killigulars of this world let's say and then the flip side which is individuals who do not seem to become wise or more compassionate with

“time and who become more entrenched you mention these wounds that cannot be healed and I think”

a lot of the leaders that we see who are in it to acquire power and to dominate others have wounds that have not been touched and haven't been able to find resolution of some kind or healing so if you have a system where people are living longer those who acquire the the the power to extend their lives other ones with the greatest resources typically they're the ones in a current system that will be able to extract dominate and then essentially prolong their own lives you're completely

shifting kind of these evolutionary dynamics that mean that even the most cruel of dictators will die what does that mean does that mean more revolutions to that mean more bloodshed does that mean like if we if we can't find on a self-sustaining earth that is much longer lived than we are if we cannot find a way to sustain the resources available to us and acknowledge that we are all interrelated how are we going to use AI it's a service to anything other than the destruction of our species

I'm sorry but later we need to change the systems and the assumptions and we have not gotten there yet at the same time I am a fervent lover of humanity and of life and I think that the darkest point in human history when you look backwards often it it's in these most dark modes before dawn where things are lost that something shifts and I would love to believe like at you know the deathbed whatever that there is a way in which we don't want to mention with a

film that we don't have to get to that point in order to have this phase transition into something else I would love to believe that that's true and I think it is true the future is not yet written much as a tech overloaded like us to be but it is and so the question is how can we learn from all of the wealth not as that we have through cultures throughout the world to be able to create conditions for different systems to emerge so that AI and any other kind of technology can help us

produce something like that this I think we're all fairly aligned with you and we have different visions as to how that works but so this gets back to the algorithm what do you optimize on and so we're building this machine it's a statistical machine it's a it's a calculating machine but what is it going to calculate what's it going to do and I think that this is an area and a shaker you spoke of really inspiring on this topic of how do we build some of this in now

“kind of before it's too late yeah and so that that's that's why I think this is an urgent moment to”

bring you know the the cross-functional expertise of the world together you know you know on this couch but on all of them like into like how do we look at this from the different angles to understand what that impact is going to be on us yeah and the psyche you know it's an experiment we've

never run you know it's interesting I can't help but when I bring up the subject matter of

awe you know I my entire YouTube series is called Shots of Og and making videos about the subject of off for 12 years and it's the reason is that I have found sort of that confrontation or that

Berkeley the work of darker culture describes awe as an experience of such perceptual vastness or such

“perceptual expansion that are assumptions the mental models of the world that we use to orient”

ourselves are forced into a state of humbling accommodation they just can literally dissolve right and the mental health crisis right now one of the sort of transformative interventions is there's the return of psychedelics and the idea that these psychotechnologies because they are technologies can put it into places beyond our maps where we can encounter the mysterious tremendous like the full sort of naked encounter with the mystery of being and how that ends up having these incredibly

pro-social effects like what happens is this humbling accommodation before the mystery like makes us more compassion it makes us have more well-being you know makes us want to extend our hands to others like there's just something that happens you know now granted it has to

“do with setting and context in which people are taking these psychotechnologies you can also have”

ego inflation you know a lot of these silicon valley tech bros have taken psychedelics and haven't become necessarily more compassionate and more empathetic but I just feel like artists psychedelics consciousness you know more works of beauty that these are things that could move mountains potentially

I've always felt that a great work of art to change the world a great film can change the world

I mean my heroes are people like Chris Nolan you know he makes a film like up and high and we're like how does that change potentially the conversation we have about nuclear weapons but look everybody's affected differently but like for me like when I encounter transcendent art when I encounter experiences of awe I sometimes feel it becomes at least self-evident in my experience and like oh this is the path this is how everybody changes this is how we scale a shift in consciousness you know

so let me let me provoke a little bit more like I'm not that I'm trying to be a provocateur but so in all of this we're assuming that we don't lose agency in all of this right but I see us losing agency every day let me give you an example okay and I will go after many examples like that as I said I grew up in India and I used to work 45 minutes to my school me and my brother we used to hold our hands used to walk for the school there was a lot of pain

but we absolutely loved the fact that we were going to a temple for me education is like going to a temple and we loved the struggle 45 minutes going in 45 minutes coming back and someone took pity on me when I was in 10th grade this is like these guys like are living in slums maybe the deserve a psycho bicycle but they gave me bicycle okay so the same just as 0.8 to 0.3 to 0.15 minutes and relieved a little bit of my pain I got a little efficient in my life

it got me from 0.8 to 0.3 and I thought boy this is good this is fantastic and then I basically

this is Uber before Uber by everyone like talks about Uber like technology is only replicated

“what we've been already doing most of the time that's what I feel okay so I used to take this”

something called shared autoric shock okay you just get into an autoric shock with 10 unknown people pay like 75 rupees and then you can go from 0.2 to 0.5 so if I get lazy someday using my bike I now had an option yeah to take an autoric shock so that was my recommendation engine in my head cycle or autoric shock then I came to United States I didn't have a car for three years by the way used to like go on with my friends they got into a car took me from 0.8 to 0.3

all I had to use was accelerator a break and just put my hands and my fingers on this steering wheel efficient way to go from 0.8 to 0.8 now we are getting into the age of autonomous cars

we don't lose your brain at all imagine my son gets into an autonomous car never has driven

a regular car what is he going to do and that's happening everywhere by the way we have taken our cognitive and said here's the best movie recommend I keep watching here's the here's the memes I'll keep watching so this is happening more and more and more I have an

Allegheny can we talk about the state and whether the state can influence a decision by the way okay Allegheny County they have created an algorithm that scores family when the child abuse in neglect is reported predicts the likelihood of child removal the family can't see their scores the Department of Justice is investigating bias and they have an app called hello baby hello baby okay that hello baby app it gives you two options to opt in an opt out one when you

“have delivered the baby and you have to watch people going on and a postcard that shows up in your”

mail that you may forget and if you're ever recorded you're always in the list to be taken away

the child to be taken away that's the reality my friends so it is the movie is not far fetched and it is hot this is also happening in corporate today think what Microsoft and Google they have a network study and you may be spending time with like your friends who and your co-workers for a lot of time and they then decide and say that person should not work with this person their performance is better if they went to a different team what together they get reallocated

reallocation is happening in corporate settings reallocation is happening in child in a child birth because of abuse of whatever it is and there is also an happen China by the way where they're actually taking the early pays credit score and saying you're no longer eligible to travel or date or a marriage and there's a social credit system in one of the states in China

“where you have to disclose everything and they will decide whether you need to get married or not”

that seems rather horrible and we are taking all of the data and creating all of these algorithms and biasing the systems and it is going to be recursive and it is going to make

bad decisions yeah that is my worry so you know on the darker side of this yeah so I've always

said that you know or well was an optimist because he never understood the power of machine learning so it's it's powerful in both directions and so that this is back to the state right and that heartless you know chilling you know version in the film is something really to be afraid of yeah I mean I think there's no doubt that humans in control of AI in places where you have a political system or governmental system where it's not really about human rights or found

fundamental freedoms and whatnot is terrifying because it just makes those kinds of governments

more powerful and more able to control us that's about as scary as can be and we're in a democratic

“country by the well we have a lignic country it's good by the way it's ugly as hell but I think that's”

that's where it's up to culture artists rebels, tricksters I mean that to to to to to create the conversation that keeps this thing from happening I mean look at that's that's that scenario you're saying I know that it's playing out in many places in the world and of course that's that terrifies me I grew up in Venezuela and I saw what happens when a government goes tyrannical and you know I right now I'm living in the Netherlands which is one of the freest places in the world

ironically everybody there goes on their bicycle and has a lot of agency on their bike so there's some some return to an analog village life there in a high trust society where there is not that kind of surveillance but but yeah look what you're saying terrifies me and there's no real rebuttal against it it's legit we just have to I guess speak out right but I think also this so thinking about democracies and what democracy actually is and the different versions of democracy

that exist and that being kind of not even just a spectrum but a constellation of different expressions of systems where people have more or less agency to vote sin people to represent their values ideals etc there are places in the world like for instance the Taiwan where Auditang

from the decisions being made by their government and so to create a system it was almost the

anti-twitter back in the day before it became ex where rather than upvote antagonistic content that would split people from one another in different groups it upvote to those points around which there was greater consensus and so you can actually depending on the intention and therefore the architecture that you create around it create greater social cohesion and a better cultural

“condition within which people can thrive using digital technologies and I think one of the things”

that we see across different parts of the world I don't know how much you've been kind of tapping into this but these quite on quote Gen Z rebellions happening when social media platforms have been shut down but they go to discord or for instance people not using iPhones and google phones

whatever they go to mesh networks is something that I've read about quite a bit in Spain not necessarily

smartphones but they're resilient and there are other ways to organize in such a ways people can have a greater sense of collective agency and when we think about agency agency for whom and within what kind of context if you're thinking about like in that film and you mentioned Amsterdam there is something about having this sensation of being held within a relational field of good will in a community that broadly is aligned with certain values and democratic societies that want to be

able collectively to cycle their kids to school without having to well that's because people are

“being careful that's what it's like I think we'll end up accelerating these pockets where in”

some countries there'll be a greater alignment, super alignment between the technologies being used not to surveil and create credit systems and keep people apart from one another but to enhance the quality of life so that the gains that made through technology you can actually embed themselves in a functioning economically, agriculturally, societally like healthy and wealthy environment so if you get access to account secures or to personalize education or whatever it is your society has

robust enough because it's been supported to support itself that it can benefit from those sorts of advances so like I think we're going to see pockets where countries go for the individualistic gung-ho technology surveillance data setting it to the highest bidder and then we'll be everything between and those societies go hell no we're not that's not what we want Finland Denmark using copyright on people's faces and biometrics so they cannot be sold to AI companies it's a very

swift very simple innovation in law or application of law vigs anyway so that we're going to see different places doing it very very differently you see you are an example of somebody that makes me think everything's gonna be okay I don't know what I'm saying you think other people think like you but you get brought to be the policy head of this and you're a public person you're out there thinking these thoughts aren't you like they're so eloquently I'm not just saying like

everything you just said was just like spot on and brilliant and was in diematical you know parallel to to to the scenarios and he was painting so I was just like I was listening to you I was like yes more like it was to you all point about creating cultural conditions and what you are saying also about in service to human for what like yeah but then who that's decide

“who gets to decide and you have to build a system that that brings it ultimately the idea”

of democracy is that how do you you know reflect that the will and the good outcomes for people yeah and technology is in a position to really do that instead of instead of a representative one where

you know you know it's sort of a you know it's a first approximation of you know the the general

beliefs of what someone wants but if we at all times knew whatever one wanted what would be good for them and made decisions in a way that was good for many many people you know the world could get better you know the decisions the decisions could reflect that but you know you used to be we lived in a monolithic culture we have three television channels you could like either Elvis or the Beatles or your choices you know and it was very you know sort of homogeneous now we're

in a hyper you know sort of heterogeneous you have sort of a branch out stage you know because I think at least back at back of the day you'd have you know when I was at school we would have like you know the hippies you would have the progress and you'd have the emo kids and you could see like there was a four five to a fair yeah and you could migrate between them if you liked whatever and now there's I think there's a difference between heterogeneity and fragmentation

yeah and I thought that's like yeah and then also look at the generated AI slot all the voices of anything generated by a large language models it's the same as a no distinctiveness no taste no differentiation no macro trend to go or that's the macro trend I'm going to do accounting over here like it's it's a bit like blur it's like mix all the colours on the palate and you end up with this kind of mushy brown grey well the fragmentation I think is the word and you know right now

you have people that are using that to to turn them against each other because it serves their purposes and so you know can we have a you know a you know heterogeneity and you know

to require people you know with voice and with power to to do that so I'll second the motion

so the idea is you know how how do we you know sort of insert and you know from the technology point of view this is something that we've been you know talking you know quite a bit about is you know are there places that we can start to insert this kind of virtue this kind of good into the the processes in a in a very explicit way take it like what can you tell us a little bit I know you're not your hosting but you're at the heart of the storm here what are some of the ways

in which you are doing this that you talk about angelic intelligence and these about shoes

me here a bit about that so the the the the fundamentally problem that I see in the world

is that we are taking garbage data and recycling all the garbage data to create more garbage output right and and there is there is this like you know sort of the paradox of like aggregation right you know we assume the mundane that we see of the human is the real human it's not the real human the variances and extraordinary moments is actually what makes a human human and we're already able to capture those I'll give you an example like you know my my like in our house

“I remember this very distinctly we had like one bowl of rice rice okay and my next door neighbor”

came and asked for rice guess what my mother did she took the bowl of rice and gave it to her

that from an economist perspective is irration behavior that according to optimization is wrong behavior that according to anyone out there is irration and stupid okay because there is a family of eight why are you not feeding the family of eight and worried about the next door family but what she tried to do in all of this is display great virtue care compassion and we are not able to capture these kinds of story to really train our models we are training that

like you know someone who was abusive or someone who had a bad credit history is not qualified

“to date someone that's what Ali paid trying to do with blight you know app it's the dating app”

trying to do so we have a fundamental problem with data the way we think about it and all decisions that are out there are not really binary zero one we are we as humans are really initiated of great so where is that goodness captured in the models today I don't see that and if you let machines make more decisions on our behalf and give the agency to the machines to make those decisions we're going to end up with a lot of like crappy yeah and that is my biggest worry and that's what we're

trying to address so my question to you guys based on the movie that you just saw what you let and I go to them decide who the partner is what you do that no thanks what do I want to what

“you how dare what are you no I think I think I think it would be well I think first of all”

chemistry connection attraction these things have an intuitive dimension strictly non-rational dimension and I think that the non-rational I think is part of what makes us human whether you know right brain left brain like there's room for empiricism and rationality but there is a need for the Dionysian for vitality for the non-rational sometimes things that we want to satiate that are inherently non-rational and I still think the non-rational can be language

maybe not with ordinary language but certainly with poetic language when I have conversations for example with chat GPT I I usually press the button where I can speak and I'll just go and riff for minutes at a time which then immediately transcribes and then we'll reflect back and what I find is that it can totally meet me in places that can make sense of my non-rational discourse and sometimes I've been able to squeeze it for advice that is insightful like a very good student

I'm fully aware that I'm the one planting the seed with the input with the prompt you know and I I'm speaking at that prompt is coming out with certain speech patterns certain poetic references

in the way that I present but you let and I'll go to them pick your pocket well I think that I would

be persuaded to take a closer look at someone after I was like help me make sense of this and then if my student surprised me and and connected the dots based on my input in a way that I didn't expect I would go on and date with their suggestion suggest the person but ultimately I'll follow my intuition but I would be open for the recommendation if that's the question I would but most of the most of the data suggests most of the data suggests that loud feeds away over a period of time hang on what we search

“to just that I'm just saying like that's what people say all the time can I just stop you down”

so I remember all the way back I thought you would I run you want to be a cross cultural studies on love as they reflect in different cultures and I remember one of the things you

looked at was in religions that have and my my mom was from Iran and this doesn't always happen

but suggested or arranged marriages and in India this still happens sometimes in Iran it still happens oh mine is one right so and I'm like well doesn't it that's for another conversation is not relevant to this necessarily but in those cultures if the people involved in the arranged marriage are respectful and non abusive which is a big if then typically the reports of love over time actually increase because it's not predicated on erotic chemistry based love which in most

partnerships subsides over a period of time depending on the research it really can be short or longer in western societies which prioritise individual choice erotic love matchmaking outside of a potentially

religious context citations of love can reduce over time divorce rates are up to 50 percent what

have you but it when we talk about love we don't have many words to talk about it you're not talking about agape or error so it's just you know what does actually mean and so you mentioned earlier about the potential for different models of relationship whether it's polyamory or monogamous or whatever it might be or like a life partner and then lost or love part whatever you want to call it because then we've got to be quite careful about how we describe love yes because it's not one

monolithic thing by any strategy imagination well in the movie you know it seemed to have been growing yeah yeah they were doing good and you know and and yeah yeah we've been married you know you're going to 28 years and you know and you know it's great and now there's face changes you dip you know you change what it means yeah but in terms of human connection I think you know and back to the hardware right and now we've evolved there is something of you know where you depend on

interpersonal relationships and there's that shared kind of yeah there's there's a safety and a and there's no one else who understands you better and and in a world that's a more fragmentation

“like I think that's important but would that not come through more relationship and”

being with that person most is being recommended something well so you know I would bring us back to the the you know science and art right so you know you know I'm an old search guy so can you use some little bit of technology to cut through the you know all the pages on the internet and get your thought down maybe but like I you know I suggested I think you know there's a lot that's not captured in that algorithm yeah and a lot that we don't even know how to say but you know it when you

feel it I just wear the which is where the responsible use of building the technology is super important for for the flourishing of the humanity right and so the question is not whether like we should or not but how are we training these damn systems you have space but even more than that like if you look at if you talk to people who are again not thinking one lithically this is a generalization but Genzy populations who are having those who are of a kind of active age having a lot less

sex having a lot less interaction with alcohol and a lot of people are saying well you know psychedelics of the way we should be sober but as a function that allows people to tell truths to one another in a lowest lowest stakes environment if they're not massively drawn and to have that kind of there isn't exactly this inhibition there is something about the ways in which if we were like too much on our technologies whether it's social media or dating apps whatever to

“remove that element of risk like I remember when I used to fancy whoever it was in class you”

slip notes to each other and the fear of rejecting was a hot like oh my god are they going to go on a date with me all one time I went for a date with someone and they wasted for me for an hour and a half my train was delayed I was like I'm going to go up and I'm going to turn up and I'm not going to be there like these sorts of things if we reduce that potential for eroticism

there's something about that longing that yearning and if you were to move all of that then you're killing eros yeah we don't want to lose embodiment no we don't want to lose deep embodiment rich environments and high consequences which is what I'm excited I would have thought you in the present moment and in a flow state and what you were speaking to before about like love fading over time

“I think you were maybe speaking directly to maybe the idea of like habituation or like people kind of”

starting to take each other for granted simply through repetition you know and I thought about this a lot because I am a creature of novelty and at the same time I'm a romantic I love the idea of loving

somebody over time and I've always felt like what's the hack here you know like one of the things

that can make you for example revivify the the hive connecting with somebody it's like boosting dopamine or so there's some habituation you know maybe you don't have to switch partners just switch the context now let's take a trip somewhere like let's just go to Japan together and get lost and see how that radical novelty pushes us together and forces us to see each other in new ways let's ritualize couples MDMA fair before times in you you know that's incredible great yeah that's

“incorporated like cannabis and gypsy jazz on walks in nature I'm telling you yes yes like I just think”

that like I have cultivated a series of my own sort of psychological interventions and ecstatic practices to go back to beginners mind continuously put myself in states of heightened openness heightened salience heightened qualitative intensity like these are practices that that that are part of my lifestyle very friends with Jamie wheel and Stephen collar who run the random flow genome projects and it's just gonna you know I think these psychotechnologies and

interventions are just as important as like whether we use these digital technologies of optimization to maximally create spaces of connection got both long term and short term it's also about now he's an anomalies yes an anomaly and like you know but like that anomaly is not captured

“everywhere but why does that be captured what you have to can't come we just create conditions”

that experience not everything has to be quantified for trading data yeah this is exactly the point of all of us we're trading data exactly you know so so but I think like the the beauty of this conversation is like we are also different and we have so many different opinion about what makes

it right and so that's the anomaly that's the human right and so we try to basically assume

that all humans are alike which we're not right and we are training these models that all that like philosophies and so longevity is a very beautiful topic very beautiful topic and I'm like I'm like super confused myself super confused myself like whenever I want to live long or I want to die okay to be honest my mom just my mom just passed away four weeks ago okay and she she was instrumental like in shaping me into the person I am today

when we had nothing she believed in me and she saw something beyond anyone else saw that's what moms do right and she passed away at the age of 70 and let's say like I live up to 250 years would I be diminishing or sacrifice or would I be celebrating or sacrifice I don't know I don't know I don't know and so my question to all of you is what would you do if you lived up to 200 years I'm what kind of body yeah well I'm so make up your own body

the first question is health span yes yeah yeah the second mystery is what happens to the human

mind after you know 150 years like we haven't run that experiment you know but let's assume that it's not doesn't go into a psychotic you know kind of you know cooler you know sort of you know yes my favorite books touch on those kind of you know cool endings but let's let's let's say that we we can remain you know curious and optimistic and so forth like you know for for me there there's you know you know as the world has changed it and and I'm discovering things and learning things

I you know what keeps me feeling young and staying curious and so you know what what would I choose to do I would choose to just keep learning same and you know and and you know there'll be new things

new things from the James Webb and like you know the you know the galaxies at the edge and

so like for me like there's like a constant like you know that's part of the human you know

“experiment that I think is is really you know sort of reverent is like you know this this wanting”

to understand and learn and and then bring that back into you know hey you know we learn these things that make the world a better place so like you know to me I I would try to take that optimistic kind of youthful energy and keep it going I wouldn't want to be kind of old and boring even at 200 are you financially prepared for it let's say like knowing it's like let's say five years not like and then this science which is telling you right now David Sinclair right from

Harvard University he's saying you can take a pill in ten years from now and you can live up to 250 years four pills are you financially prepared for that well so you know this is back to the health span and the energy because we're probably not going to retire at 60 and you know and honestly I don't think that's a bad thing I mean I've looked at this a lot and you know there's a lot people that retire they go from 100 to 0 and then three years later you know they're dead yeah

right and you know there's many factors to this social isolation all that but you know for me it's it's the the mental the curiosity the not learning thing and not giving back and so for me with retirement I think about it and it's it's a dial like I I don't want to stop doing things I don't want to stop giving back or contributing or paying it for it in fact I find that incredibly energizing it's exothermic like you know to work with young people to help them out to like

you know learn new things you know like I so for me that you know like you know I don't think

“that you have to stop being economically you know I kind of contributing and you know it'll”

throw the whole system into disarray but you know here we are you know but we you know we

won't be retiring at you know one third of the way in unless you know AI and robots are doing it all

and we're in a post you know scarcity world or something but like to me I think you know that's why the hell span and and you know keeping it going you're not going to be able to be I don't think yeah sort of useless for a hundred years yeah well I think what about you Natalie I'm gonna say I mean post scarcity I would think this is a prerequisite for a world with radicals that a lifespan so we follow these transformations are happening in biotech and

health span and whatnot I also think it'll happen in the productivity allowed by AI and universal high income whatever it may be so then maybe people can just orient their lives around joyful curiosity you know that gets me very excited you mentioned the the humble space telescope there's this great article by Ross Anderson this sort of contemplates the the insights of the images of the deep field and so on and we're blew me away totally you know it says it allowed us to

mainline space and time through the optic nerve you know this idea that we're like fitting the universe through our brain the kind of genius you know the kind of mind that conceived of an instrument that allows us to fit the universe through the optic brain like just sitting in that vastness both

“intellectually thrilling vastness like psychologically expansive vastness and I think to myself like more”

of that and then it just hits against entropy and limitation and lifespan you know like I'm just like getting excited I feel like Jodie Foster in the movie contact you know when she

goes through the wormhole she's finally seeing the celestial event and she's like they should have

sent a poet they should have sent a poet Carl Sagan is one of my heroes he called himself a wonder junkie so like I really resonate with your enthusiasm your joyful curiosity and I think that's the engine that wants to just like remove all constraints on joyful curiosity so get rid of diseases get rid of lifespan limitations get rid of unnecessary suffering and just allow us to have joyful exploration forever having invented the gods we can turn into them this would Alan Harrington said

well and so you know as I thought experiment you know if if you remove many of the the traditional frictions yeah that that that that we used you know to to in some cases to grow into advance right is there a way to to substitute them maybe I said a new goal for myself I'm going to discover this and I haven't discovered yet and now I'm feeling despair because I'm not there yet and I'm not dying of cancer but like but I'm still going through that same learning and seasoning motion perhaps

I don't know you know it could be that you know we find new ways to keep growing you know that that's my hopeful side maybe not I mean I think there's so there's an interesting idea about you mention about retiring at 16 what happens that you fall off a cliff edge potentially and I think there's something about the ways in which you've structured many of our societies where purpose and the feeling of usefulness not necessarily utility something these are the separate things

and what we do from a flip side to that and as again at this idea of purpose got me thinking about

“co-human and this idea of self-individuation that when we hit what the moment is for those of us who are”

lucky to live up to 1890 half point of our lives like around 40 that's when you tend to find people come into a greater sense of questioning around what service you mentioned service and what purpose and purpose yeah that you know you've kind of conformed to the accultreated norms of what it means to potentially have a marriage or have kids or whatever it might be and then you come to the point of okay how can I be a service in this world what does it mean to actually live when death

is now perhaps as close as my birth was to this midpoint and I like and so I wonder if you extend the lifespan and there's still the horizon of mortality do we still have that sense at age 40

for instance or thereabouts of wanting to become a greater service to something and then do

we just have a longer time frame in which to actually pursue those things like for me thinking about like these models of self-determination where you have your idea of being able to really deepen your mastery and you're belonging in the world and you're autonomy mastery I would love to dedicate 50 years of my life to my painting 50 years of my life to my music and at the moment it's like I've got a month here or two a week I've got a month you know I'm living five lives already and

I don't want to have kids because I don't have the drive or the desire for it I'd rather be a steward for other people's you know lives and kids but even that's tangential like wanting to be someone who looks after animals or who gets to learn about you know ethno botany like there's so many things I want to deepen my mastery in but our service to life but to your point about aperture and openness and your joy for curiosity but I also wonder if that's something where

already you've come to the point where you mentioned you're kind of this this it's almost like an existential grapple with the fear of death and loss if your loved ones perhaps more than even feel so like where do we go also okay so feel your own life for the life of those you love like how do we begin to grapple with with these things and with the people who are most wounded who potentially could derail the joy seeking for the rest of us when we're not all just plugged

into this headnostic give me the hits now but there's more you don't want it meaning filled what's life while lived and then how do you create like so far since thinking about criminal justice systems or leaders who are trying to just fuck everybody over because there is not another way that is known to them yet and then we get to decide because it's also I'm making a judgment

that our way is see I'm not a psychologist or a social psychologist by like and I never would understand

but my question is if you had a more time would you procrastinate more no do you want to do more yeah yeah I would not procrastinate at all no but what is the general human tendency though like like let's talk one like let's forget the rituals let's talk one common people like would they

“if they had more time but I don't think the issue for most people is more time I think the”

issue is how do I feed my kids how do I put a roof over my heads how do I make sure that my mom's taken care of and has the meds that she needs or is able to go to hospital to save her life like that's the issue I don't think the issue that is time the issue is scarcity of medical educational social resources so and what most of the world lives still under the poverty line yeah because there's a large portion of the minority of the world back to the spectrum you are here

yes right yeah here you can we maybe get here and then you know sort of then you know have a little bit more of the higher order self actualization worries yes right like I think there's room to do a lot of good and especially those who have the luxury and fluke of being born in a context where we have the privilege to make our actions louder like disson yes I won't do what about you just echo with what they've said you want to keep learning and you know it's like

I sometimes mourn for parallel timelines that I haven't been able to act upon and and that

“I'm incredibly privileged I've already lived many lives I think about my life when I lived in LA”

my life now living in Amsterdam and in the life that I haven't had yet where I'm just like I just want to spend like three years walking pilgrimages in Japan you know I just read this book about this guy walking in Japan like it's a couple things become other things marvelous you read five pages and you're like I want to go to this for a couple of years you know and I don't want to like be counting the clock and thinking what age I am and do I have kids yet and you know I'm not married

and what does this mean and oh my dad I want to spend more time with my dad you know like I feel constrained maybe you know it could be that I this is just my wiring and this is just her wiring

weren't fighting to survive and weren't in the survivalist mindset I imagine you know in the future a kind of university campus upbringing for people where it's like the movie dead poet society and people are just like going to classes on whatever subject they want because you study whatever you want you sit and beat bags you learn you get excited like I you know I sort of see that that I just

“I listen to how things feel and that's how I decide like what I want and like what I feel is I want”

to be in a state where I'm learning and growing and the horizon just keeps expanding and I don't feel with existential constraint of time entropy loss and all these things I just you know talk about frictions you know I see them as like as like a fist in the stomach you know let's imagine that you did everything you would do into a hundred years and you can live up to 250 what would you do the next 50 years you did everything you like direct all over the world you did

like you make them our skin back it's not what has cracked up to me that's not my last one why not I'm saying most tomorrow you know that I'm 16 I'm sure you really know that the one to limp a packet I'm sure he's gonna go so so today the decision is made you know you know

“people you know they they lose energy they you know they're they're they're deteriorating”

and some people will you know feel like hey this is my time and you know and that's the natural envelope that you know that our biology is delivered and it's a miracle that we can live 80 years right it's it's crazy but you know that that's that's that's the status quo you know is there a point where you just exhausted everything that there is to be learned and there's nothing more to be field and you can't you know feel joining or learn well yeah maybe that's you know that you know

back to my opt-in opt-out you know like I wouldn't want to be trapped forever you know and where you

could never choose and then you know you lived in that hell of you know gray bland despair like so

you know maybe that that's a different you know sort of equation that we need to think about in that you know in that world but today you know before you want to for a lot of people you lose the the physical energy the mental energy the acuity that all of the things that would have allowed you to keep learning and and for me you know you know at my age like you know I am leaning into I'm in two bands right now right you know for you you know and I'll play with my daughter and she's an incredible

like musician and then I'll say another bands you know 24 and like you know I'm showing them art music and then they actually have a great music stage but they're showing us you know the new music I haven't heard and so like I I I'm not feeling any kind of asymptotic approach to to boring yet making optional right like the people opt-in opt-in opt-in opt-in opt-in opt-in opt-in opt-in opt-in opt-in to write a galactic extension but even not even more talent than just like making optional like

“people I believe in assisted suicide if that's your jam you know like I think people should be able to choose”

and and and you know these technologies might at first have this idea that only they're only available for the

rich but that's when they don't work very well you know like the cell phone and it's sort of eventually information technologies the price point goes to almost zero that's every rift can rent those in the zero margin of society so I think eventually everybody will have access to this and so I just think like hey man you are of enthusiastic disposition let's keep it going and those that they want to be more honest like you know don't that's it because you didn't leave it to free will for sure yeah

force anybody to stick around if they don't want to yeah they offer them like guided psychedelic trips to like reconnect them with the joy of living oh my god before they take your lives but uh see it's a new business venture you know four in the commit suicide let me reconnect you with the wonders of the day so let's assume that you're 25 years old this is you for a second okay and then you enter the room with someone who's like

225 years old who do write that interaction and what would be your interaction in the first place

I would love that you say I tell young CEOs I say look you always have to learn from your

own mistakes but it's way cheaper to learn from other people yeah right so like think of all of the used wisdom and particularly if at 225 they still had a youthful vitality there's

of a wet blanket or like you know that it's like a non joyous kind of thing but you know I had

“some some very energetic you know 90 plus year old relatives that you know that I loved being”

with till the end when I was 20 and and it's interesting because at 20 like you know we're we're not really burned with that you know that midlife crisis that that you know you kind of think you'll live forever and and it's not that bad like I kind of you know being 20 something is it's not that bad like the 20s are pretty like I don't know about your friends but mine they're up and down there's you know there's you know but maybe those are the friction points that you're learning from

but like yeah you don't realize how good you had it like with you the the fittest body and then you know sort of all of the freedom and like but but you know do I think that not feeling the end next you not appreciate the current I'd offer your 20 something self as a counterpoint yeah right Kurt's while was asked about this they said don't you think death is what gives meaning to life

“and he said no I think life is what gives meaning to life and what he's doing life just to create”

art and knowledge and whatnot and it's not a complex answer but it was like yeah that makes sense to me I don't I don't need death for life to be meaningful I think the things that life encompasses you know are what are deeply meaningful and is precisely why death seems like this existential tragedy like beyond measure like that that said the kind of heart the kind of mind that made you know Beethoven's music you know the kind of heart the kind of mind that that writes poetry and

I just like what like that that what they felt what they like to just to for them to be eliminated I just I don't I can't understand that contrast I'm not equipped to to to make it make sense for me at the moment and I think that any attempt to romanticize it is is a psychological you know way of acquiescing to something that would otherwise drive a psychotic you know Ernest Becker in his book the denial of death great psychoanalysis an analytic book from the 70s

said that the awareness of mortality drives human beings mad and that there's three solutions psychological solutions that we use to deal with death awareness because we're the only animal that's like aware of it's death long term the religious solution the romantic solution of the creative solution so the religious one is like well that isn't real if we go back to God and everything's good the romantic solution is we'll put them on a pedestal and so now I'm like merging with my God

by putting them on a pedestal but your God's eventually reveal their clay feeds so that also collapses and then the creative solution in some way another sublimation and like well I'm I'm finding

transcendence in myself expression and so death falls away temporarily and I always found that to be

very persuasive thing because without without those things it's just like staring it in the faces it's a tough thing but you know thinking prominence is fundamental for life maybe still terrifying I know it's totally out yeah I don't understand it like I mean what I mean I don't understand it is like like I don't emotionally understand my inner child doesn't understand it you know it it's incompatible with how love feels to me so let's say I like let's say I like to you

yeah let's say I like to you okay okay and let's say that 25 year old that you're looking at is actually you and also the 225 just became you so all yourselves all your memories everything is gone would it still be you so then it is so subject so you're looking at your mirror that's the 25 and the 225 the 225 just became the 25 the 25 is completely changed every cell is changed

“but life is not just about this kind of building block of it's the subjective experience that we”

carry the relationships that we have we're into being one can't exist as a separate self like I can't exist without like life happens in a related way and I think in much the same way like the 25 year old self was doing a fucking best you was doing a great job but it's different to who I am now and hopefully I'm different to who I'll be when I'm if I get to be 90 whatever and there's something about that kind of hopefully self compassion for one's younger

iteration of being but then all of the people that you have been and become it's almost like

you know the river is never the same river twice the water is different but it's still the same river

same thing with the land or with the boat if you change a plank you know sort of philosophical

experience in which the memory freezes memory is also created act so I think we have this my sense as we have this desire to grasp our identity or self as a fixed thing and I don't think that's

“necessarily true I think it's kind of like maybe like an orchestra which can play different songs”

and maybe have a certain set of instruments but the song is always evolving and if you're lucky

you remember the song that you played when you're 25 with fondness but it changes it's not a static calcified thing and I think this touches on something that all of us have already touched on which is this joy and is openness and the vitality is it's it's that capacity to be in that song being that river knowing that it's not the same and it's not going to be the same and it's different time it was and still live with it and flow through it something like this yeah so like a paradox

of like feeling a continuity even as you watch everything change but that felt sense of continuity

“because you know you could argue that the past has been like dead you're looking at an old photo”

what is that who is that yeah I mean I'm that but not really like every cell has turned over like

this is gets back into just like this sort of felt mystery of what it is to be us you know but but what I do know is I wake up every morning in gratitude and I like the feeling of an open horizon Alfred Hitchcock was what's asked what is happening is open horizon nothing to worry about and I'm just like yeah that open horizon just like possibility you know just chocolate yeah or just so let's say like you these are all hypothetical questions but like

these could be odd who by the way you know it is like I'm thinking about the future so let's say like you know all of your memories that you had for 250 years is compressed into 80 and someone

forgotten your first love is forgotten the first babies were forgotten what happens

what I found false all right well I'll point out that I forgot a lot of things yeah and I I've still made it through and some of them are probably adaptive that I did forget them you know but you know that that's kind of the you know that's the way it works today but if you had to like this tabula rasa you know kind of you know there's still you there's there's a genetic makeup of what your machine is that would live a you know in some ways a similar life perhaps and

and you know that the you go centric you know wanting your machine to you know still imprint the world and so even if I had to forget everything and learn a new would you still wish that I I think so I think so because there's that biological even if you don't remember it but the twist on it would be you know can I get one page of wisdom from my old self can I get one one hand written page I like that how about you Jason like to be able to really get young again but forget everything

it's an interesting question if it if it was going to feel like an erasure of total identity then that's the same as dying isn't it so so close yeah I am but hey don't know I don't know I don't know I don't know how much of who I was it is erased or you know like subjectivity and consciousness is still kind of a mysterious thing you know like sometimes I remember being really little and

“remember vividly and and and and remember that it was exactly me now but then you know in”

other times I think like you said memories creative like maybe that's just me projecting my current self into the past and maybe that was yeah yeah yeah so I can't wrong answer that question well this this kind of amnesia scenario is interesting because there's the what you actively remember and you could recount but then there's the the the the the chips that have been burned in that that allowing you to still move as a 25 year old in the world and so there's a fair amount

of of me that is the unspoken you know kind of model of how you you can operate as a 25 year old sentiently even if you didn't remember anything yeah so like you know so there's the hardware layer

and then there's the active memory of it so if I have to lose the top third or the top half or

“whatever that is obviously that is a lot of who I am yeah but it's maybe not a hundred percent”

so what if there was trauma there's depression there's other things would you want to retain those memories well yeah that the questions can you choose which do you want to heal better if you're like living up to 250 and can you have all the wisdom and forget the fun get all the bad yeah it all I'll I'll give you this one so you know at 40 I had a terrible bike accident so I 26 broken bones punctured long percussion they took me to the hospital still survived

and still playing band no no and one more they took me to the hospital and they accidentally gave me

a 10x overdose of morphine with one lung working so like this was kind of this you know

carpe dm reset for me but the the point here of this story is that I don't remember any of it what was it like when you came out you you came to like rough but I I felt like I'd been wrote over by a couple more trucks but but you know my mind has you know has flush those it's done a selective version of what you're talking about and maybe it's for the better and even that whole period of recovery months of recovery uh like I it's still kind of hazy yeah but uh it's drawn

on like somewhat like burned in your memory well so this here's the here's the question so and part of you know I I kind of chose to take this as hey I'm lucky like I could have been dead

and you know and and I'm not and so now what do I what do I do with you know with this year

“so like you know there's some of that that you you choose to be grateful but I think there isn't”

adaptive thing in the in the human mind that was operating there of like you know all of that pain that maybe that's not adaptive to keep it all but but I kept the if you could take the emotional pain advantage but still keep the lesson of gratitude yeah so like you know I feel like I kind of came out you know more than whole from that you know that was a lot of friction so I but I don't have the explicit memory of all the pain but maybe that that speaks to this innate intelligence

of the body mind of not retaining all of that you know because you saw something interesting before but some emotional trauma is actually like a stuck memory you know like the this guy David Lenson called temporal dislocation so the trauma gets stuck and you actually bringing that to the door to be very moment so you're kind of like living as if that past thing was happening to you now and it's affecting your biochemistry and so on and so forth and one of the things that happens

in psychedelic experience when they do trauma work is that puts you in a state of consciousness in which not only can you visit the trauma but dissolve the stuckness of it you know they say the body keeps the scores the best of the book of a trauma and so that's an interesting thing it's like to be in a state of consciousness where you feel so medically safe enough to like go back to it visit it look at it acknowledge it and also realize it's in the past it's not here man it doesn't

“have to be and yeah so I just think that's that's how we could potentially deal with that”

if our body doesn't do it with its own innate intelligence in your case you know so let's say like you know you cheated on someone or like you were like mean to someone or you were really bad to someone and now you're living up to 250 years do you want to live with that resentment to the page so well maybe that'll be a yeah and instead of to behave better since you have to live with it longer over it right yeah but like just imagine right like you you had only like let's say like you're

55 and you did something at the age 50 and like you know that's got for a bit let's say like you know your use like end of life was 70 now extended to 250 you just had that period of resentment for 15 now it turned into 200 and 200 odd years maybe that's the new justice but these are the stakes these are the stakes and I don't forget that like culture adapts as well like so thinking about what's going on psychological support he's like delict or you know

might have been your local community that discuss these things or 12 step programs that you would have to have a cultural context that adapted to longevity in such a way that you find a way to restore some kind of homestatic balance or that you know you carry these you carry these things with you

set a start where all that cruel to someone when you're like 20 or 21 I can remember specific

conversations I've had I wish I had been more thoughtful before I spoke like and if you're lucky you remember them and if you're lucky you don't create that pattern again you don't course by the home so I think there's also this maybe it creates conditions for people to be more compassionate but it requires being attentive to that and a willingness to want to look inside and to name ones shadows and fears and to desire to help other people to accompany other

people as they explore theirs but wisdom is not just individual either it's it's collective it's this cultural embedding of support so you're saying that like live 2 250 years but don't screw up

“and you have to repent longer there's a shield of the question yeah yeah yeah yeah”

good good so let's see 150 let's all you know so let's get into some controversial topics okay now what do you want would you have the sexual desire at like age 150 well that that that comes down to you know that's one of the the questions about youthful vitality and like what's the health span and so forth right of course so like I think you know as a human if you think of what what did I have in my 20s or my 40s or my like you know and yeah

I generally there's a desire to carry that forward so I I think that that's a part of being human that you know that you know that I like and that many people like and so like I

I'd say the answer is you know to keep as much of being human and keep it in like you know

in full full colorful sort of life that that seems like the optimal yeah what he said

“yes I think if we are maintaining our homeostasis and we're thriving biologically”

I don't see a reason why we would lose a little faculties and also I've read studies that as people get older if they do still have sexual appetite which most folks in these studies have inhibitions go down so there's less judgment about body there's less you know you just want to use any other season possibly into your 40s now with social media we're so judgemental about how we look how we're going to be judged and as you get older and our bodies get older just like

yeah pleasure is primary and that is also a liberation so I wonder also with that if

if you get to enjoy more of that kind of less inhibited joy and pleasure and

exposure focus that that's one of the parts I'm getting older I like is I'm all out of apps right like you know yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah there's a much that I don't care about anymore that that used to bother me or weigh me down or like I thought I was supposed to worry about or yeah and and so to me that that that that that that that that is the you know the optimistic case of like do you shed baggage yes like you know instead of picking up baggage

do you shed some I don't know but that that would become part of the philosophy of how do I you know you know how do I be immensely healthy 100 year older or 150 year older I mean imagine the sex policy it's like the reading just inhibitors respect for consent to like you know just it would transform the way that maybe younger people learn about sex too like I like her you told be a little bit just say I really you know we could be even over whatever but like you know

yeah so the question is like I like is monogamy even a thing when you're living 250 years

“well I I think you know they'll certainly be challenges to it like you know in the movie you”

know that there was a you know some statistical sort of approach they used that said that you know hey it breaks down and and for society's good you know either you you know you get with the program or your dead like you know I think you know you know we'll have to rethink a lot of things if we lift to 250 and you know but like you know you know having the agency to decide for yourself is part of what I think would would make that a lot better and then society would have to

kind of catch up with how it thinks about it yeah what kind of monogamy we're talking about partnership we're talking about sexual monogamy there's all kinds of different types of even you think about people who've been together long time like historical figures like Frido and what's this job like designing relationships that work based on the benefits that you bring each other the style of relating that works for you and I'm not being able to have all the

time yeah they live next to each other then you live together so cool they have a little bridge connecting their houses and something and she had lovers he had lovers it's turbulent but it's like but yeah yeah I think there'll be a new bohemianism in the future when we have like radical life extension I think there's going to be all these kinds of quirky ways that we're going to like relate and explore each other that tell me more I would love to listen and I don't know

disinhibition and sexuality and consciousness exploration and wild technologies if you're

“ever read the hedonistic imperative by David Pierce he writes about like using biotechnology”

to transform subjectivity and creating some pleasure we can barely imagine it's brilliant writers to read it in college and so they call them the genomic body sattaba and yeah super cool

it's like kind of like psychedelic transhumanism you know like so I've always wanted to like

bring those things together you know it's like how do you have a psychedelic transhumanism that's like genomic but yeah back to phoma right like yeah what's in the beat yeah yeah I don't know like it and again you know you know I don't really want to be first to line for brain chips yeah yeah but like you know in a hundred years like you know it's nanobots or like you know like yeah we we take up a pill and it changes your your cell structures like I don't know

but like we may be different like maybe you want to talk more levels of pleasure that's right

“like give that a shot I don't know you know maybe it's bad yeah yeah I'm not gonna power it yeah”

but like yeah that this is what with all of the the magical kind of capability of technology that

these are like this is where science fiction is is to me it's my favorite you know genre of writing because it's really it's it's kind of the MRD for the future it's it's it's a bit of the blueprint and in fact you look at like Star Trek yeah we were talking about that earlier uh Star Trek actually you know drove a lot of inventions like the tri-quarter you know as your iPhone right yeah we're sure and and so there's this you know there's a lot of times where media is the

distorted mirror and it reflects back and we get worse and worse but that's the opposite and but sci-fi is you know for certainly for innovation is the one where reflects back and and and then you know reality follows the fiction well think about magical that technology is that we could like use the technology of writing to create something that when you open it it's true right because the minute you're reading a great piece of science fiction

you know when you're reading it it's true I mean it's it's viscerally true like you're there so it's like maybe maybe it's a psychotechnology that's like whispering something from the

future put in the present forward to meet it like we never know the creativity of the person who

wrote it maybe that was being whispered retroactively from the future maybe backending you know

“some t-axis kind of that great time loop like I don't know I mean I think already there are”

technologies that border on like metaphysical or like better miraculous and I think writing is one of that when deployed in the right way well I always would get the holiday from Star Trek you know when you go and you can choose your risk and everything and it's like VR but much better so VR so VR without the nose you're in the audience so let's switch it up a little bit like you know I know that you guys are all like the optimist and feel like in the room here

so talk to me a little bit about the relational crisis that may come upon you guys think about the the other extreme that the society should prepare for like what what type of relational crisis can come if you start living up to 250 years whether it's like talking to your great great great great great great great grandchildren and don't even know where they came from so cool I don't know if it's cool or not but like or like you know people start

dying around you and you're the only one alive but then why would you choose longevity I don't know like I'm just asking what what are these vampire movies you're like spider but well it's like this three thousand year few my family and your family and I had this lover and she like well I feel it put Phillip Pullman's books I love the doctor and like let me tell this there's the witch and she has like a human lover and then he gets older and he's going to die

and she carries on surfing a pickle and like but the cohort of witches live on and they carry the wisdom of all these other populations that have passed away like who gets to be that central population what are their values or their stewards or are there the people that are just going to extract and list of them the other like it's back to the same old dynamics so I'll tell you why this even this question came to me for two years okay and nothing in my life like just happens

by this thing is this level also in the particular you know I have conversations and I'm translating the conversation back to you so I I one of my mentor is a guy called Jim Kirkhart and I was

speaker he's probably like you know keen order about like three three thousand odd like stages

“very well known in industry like you know phenomenal guy and I was telling him sorry Jim my”

going to meet you I've been going through a lot of personal drama in a sense my father-in-law passed away and then my mother passed away and then right before I left my my father grew up with his uncle and like they're siblings like so my my dad's cousins husband passed away you know and so there's a lot of like little task in a way right and I said I started explaining to him like you know like this is so like like painful like you know you just see all the people

that you like loved and like you know you want them to be part of your life and they just all

passing away he said like you know there comes a time in everyone's life few times in your life like when you're like probably thirty forty he's like your parents pass away and all of the people are on them pass away then when you get to seventy seventy five like all of your friends pass away and so he was relating the story of how lonely he is and as he is right now so this is not an uncommon thing by the way at what point in time would you start regretting being a being

life now it's it's a legit a question but I think the point of these breakthroughs in longevity happening is that a lot of people would often so it's not like just me like I don't think a lot of people would I think a lot of people and knowing that those that don't chose not to would make me grieve them less because it wouldn't be the tragedy of life that took them away

“like oh that's what they chose very we at all is using the fact that the economic reality of”

those people is in sync with their longevity experiences like I come from slums in India okay I went back to the slums I go back to that all the time whenever I visit just to go back and see like to be grateful from where I came and how long I've come there are still many people who can't afford a proper burial a funeral like like I like the the school that I went the Monteserie school I went still exists one without like even enclosing like it's just open to the to the

entire environment and so when you get to do November December it's super cold and kids fall sick and so we had to go build like all the explosives there and so this so we are all assuming that like like you know a small population a small spectra or a population is going to basically dictate

“how the world lives but this is a large minority of people who are not even they can't even afford”

education they can't afford like you know minimum wages they can't afford like health care I'll give you another example like my next door neighbor she had two heart attacks she's my age two years elder to me and so they told her like you know she has to take this high potential

injection which will help her like calm down her hypertension problems I never heard of an

injection in India for one and a half lakh which is $2,000 seems like how crazy is money by the way so I said hey like and she was worried like you know like why should I take it like and so expensive like I don't even like I don't want to live like the fuck care so I'm like standing in the queue when I I force her to take the injection I said like you know you're not dying on me because everyone says dying on me because we grew up like the way we grew up and

really the way we grew up so we I used to wear black shoes and she used to wear white shoes and we were like we used to flip flop the shoes because we couldn't afford the shoes okay so that closed we are and I was I was starting in front of the queue and there was a guy sitting in front of me and he was asked to pay 60 lakhs which is $100,000 and the fear they were putting in that guy is like we can make that person live if you pay 60 lakh rupees and I look at that person and

I know for a fact that he cannot afford 60 lakhs and they're going to go sell a farmland or their house or their jewelry or they're going to take a loan and they're going to live in debts forever so this notion there's fantasies you know the fantasy of longevity and we want to live long this all predicated in the fact if we can economically survive I know that it's talk about universal Babobla play none of these assholes are actually doing anything about it to be honest

televised like worldwide by the way everyone watched it two billionaires sitting against each other

“talking to each other one guy an Indian billionaire and the other guy is Elon Musk and they're talking”

about humanity one guy has $500 billion and this is negotiating a trillion dollar pay package the other

guy has a billion dollars together they have $501 billion that multiply that by 88 rupees that is 43 and Indian rupees put that in a bank and give it to a billion people yeah many people will survive and they were talking about humanity but their goal is to make money right so we have created this society where we celebrate money yeah and we haven't created the society where humanity can thrive in longevity can have an aspiration and we're not preparing that society in the first place so where

is the preparation in all of this that's my question to you guys tell me more like how do we prepare those society for to live longer and happier tax the wealthy by which I mean corporation

“patients that are stolen the data of thousands, tens of thousands, hundred thousand people's work”

whether it's you know I'm north or you're north or people who's have who've had their basically

everyone's the collective output of humanity that is available online tax the corporations that have used that to train their algorithms and their AI models and then put that wealth into the support of people so they can have access to medicine and healthcare and education and safe clean water and pesticide free process free food that is not going to cause diabetes and the rest of like the solutions are there in a historic you know I'm not one for like the accumulation of past

amounts of wealth and the hands of very few and these sort of dynasties that then perpetuate these sorts of kind of inherited billionaire trust fund kids whatever but at the same time

“if you look back historically people who had lots of money would typically ensure their legacy”

by investing back in the cultures in which they were embedded is mosque dinner you're not doing it you know it's actually like he's actually negotiating a trillion dollar pay package how do you get a trillion dollar pay package by doing your profits how do you how do you how do you become more profitable by becoming more efficient what does it mean less humans in the job maybe he's not a great example no no like that's the same place we all aspire to like

I know we do not owe this but he's not here he's a lot of this so maybe he's worth it so I'll give you a little bit alternate story which was Bill Gates Bill Gates was a T-Rex just for rociously tearing through other you know companies like you know very amoral like you know like for a long time but then yeah you know he he married Melinda like a bit flipped

and he was always married to Melinda what do you mean he was always married to that well

a but cheating one or two well yeah so like that aside the richest man in the world at the time yeah human yes but you know but he he actually made an incredible turn and say millions of lives yeah millions of lives yeah like finding malaria like a disease like hey Elon maybe go hang out with with Bill like you know like there's there's there's a little bit of that of hope there and even with someone who was a like a ferocious like you know

not really caring he didn't even donate much early on just didn't care just money powered like you know windows like you know but like something flipped for the good in him and had a tremendous impact and and in fact the amount that you know that there could be an idea where like you if you had these like accumulations of wealth if you had a culture and you know a reward system amongst all that that affected it and they that people skewed more that way maybe someone should

write poetry about that what we've been talking about so he's like a young 30-something-year-old Dutch historian who's written this book called moral ambition where he talks about maybe two three generations ago where the emphasis was if you ask people what does living well mean it was a pursuit of a meaningful life and now you ask people what does living well

money becomes a thing when it's and when not having enough money is a barrier to living sufficiently well that you don't have to work because that's that's that's that's that's that's that's it can you talk about but there is a redemptive possibility we all have the seeds of

“busing compassion within us for sure and I think that was a country like it's a consciousness it's”

always about consciousness compassion kindness the better angels of our nature the good to

true in the beautiful and but are we not why we can that as a society are we not going back in the opposite direction like we want to like fewer taxes from the corporates they're all celebrating it are we not I mean who wants to hear that I would like all the corporations that they're all celebrating like taxes being less well and so yeah there's always a back and forth you know and yeah the answer is in zero and it isn't 100 what's the right rate and then there's a lot of

embedded assumptions and winners and losers and democracies and you know under it's a complicated problem it's a complicated problem but it gets it gets less complicated if they accumulate those you know those billions and then you know pull the bill gates maneuver that helps but you know

“there's definitely you know the society is going to create the wealth and it's going to have”

have to find a balance between not letting people starve to death in the slums and and in fact

you know there there there could be enough of a productivity gain that you can still have really rich people but ever want you know the the rising tide it's not trickle down you know it's it's it's rising tide well this is Steven Steven Pinker's idea right I mean that website human progress that talks about all the ways in which the world has improved across the board for even the people supposedly on the bottom is there truth to that data so there's that hasn't that played out

these are far from perfect but yeah you can track the ways things are better now than they used to be there are things that are better and and even things that every poor person as access to the the the richest person in the world could have had in 1950 that's right they could be your iPhone or like whatever and so like there there are examples of where there is you know you have demonetization of these aspects so back to the live forever pill you know they're

probably very high-fix cost to develop it but it's probably a pretty low cost to manufacture it

and so you know could you could you could you crank out 10 billion pills

with with all the like you probably could like it's not necessarily you know when you're in the the first starts of the technology it's very expensive right it's mainframe yeah but then it gets down to you know sort of you know iPhone and so like that that to me is like that's the hopeful part of like some of these you know breakthroughs they might start you know being very you know sort of exquisite but I would hope that the effort goes in to make them

available let's cure cancer for everyone for sure in the slums too ever like the that you know and and look if any of us are lucky enough to be that that next billionaire like you know maybe maybe take half like there's a decreasing marginal utility to dollars who dictates all of that who's going to dictate all of that government dictates some of it society you know can create an environment but when there's regulatory capital capital by

corporate students government doesn't how do you know the power to be able to do that we we see no other example we as a we as a society has not we haven't done that in the last I don't know like I've been on this earth for the last 25 years I've not seen this happen so when you end up in monopolies and regulatory capital and you then at the essentially you're talking about a system which is so enclosed but you don't have checks and balances and then

can you change a system from within or dual alternatives need to be generated in order to provide alternatives so that when the system comes to grinding coal there's something else what other things that can then support I mean I'm not a historian but like so longevity is a is a phenomenal topic but like this societal impact and like all the things that

“need to be done is super important I'll give you a cow story a cow story a cow story so”

I like I was one of those morons who used to think that like drone delivery is going to happen tomorrow it was so convinced in 2015 okay and and then like you know I started thinking about autonomous cars and all kinds of stuff and like I have like tons of patterns on this like drones lying out of like a truck and then coming back to the truck and sitting on the truck and taking the rack it's a little bit so okay okay so the and then I was like super fascinated about all of this

and then I go to India obviously right and like I see the way people drive okay in India in order

but he will go on the right hand you'll put the right hand sign and he will go on the left hand

“like this like the Indian guy is not there yes and no by the way right and they may put both”

the hands and then they may be keeping on they may be driving straight and so my driver I

can't drive in India by the way I always need a driver okay so my driver knows how to navigate

the road like the roads and then he encounters a cow sitting in the center of the road and everyone is like trying to hang she's just sitting there okay so the cow could not understand the intent of the driver neither the driver could understand intent to become and technology the way we think about technology and pushing the technology into the society is this problem that we are not completely you know there are a lot of people who don't

understand how to use it how to consume it they're like cows you think they like a literacy they're a completely novelty so they don't know how to use the tools they need to know how they've been using conditions we cannot have the cows on the road when you're trying to like develop autonomous cars can we fair enough education literacy I mean these are things

that need to scale amongst regulations policies all these things are super critical for sure

and we are like at an inflection point in the technology we are running so fast with technology we are so fascinated by technology and what it can do we are not asking a question are we

“really preparing the society for the incoming change I think we know the answer”

what is the answer that we're not and so like so how do we it's a new experiment and we're going to screw it up and what is it cost of the screw up very best traffic yeah or humanity adapts somehow mark it the range of suffering and how much I think that really strikes me is that we have such extraordinary potential for imagination and for strategy for looking back through history

spotting patterns if we have the skills you mentioned about the idea of you know that the potential to become gods if we have the tools certainly not with the elements but with other Latiners symbolic AI or world models or whatever it might be to be able to create tools that extend our capacity to understand and engage with the external world and to adapt it to our needs well hopefully supporting it's life if we have all of that capacity are refused to believe that

the best we can come up with is these GNI models that are sloppy extracting all these resources all people are getting access to dwindling water supply and they just we have so much more potential

“than this and I think it's such a lie it's kind of the sense that this is the best we can do”

it's not we are capable of so much beauty and so many people every person I speak to when I give keynotes for all of these sorts of events whether it's an open business event or an insurance company the people that come up off to say yes there is potential because if you're buying into this idea this is the best we can do really in these beautiful brief lives that we have and we're so

reckless about all this technology and with the way we are never looking at it but not all people are

reckless there's the distributed AR research institute there's the Mozilla Foundation there's Tristan's Tristan Harris's Center for Humane Technology the work of Timney Gabriel the work of Karen Howe the work of people like Tom Chaqfield Gary Marcus like there are so many people doing extraordinary work who have been basically saying let's be an analytical discerning and so burn our conversation about the risks how to mitigate them what societies want to build into

and how we can draw upon a pluralism of voices and histories and cultures and philosophies and cosmologies to create alternative futures that actually support the kinds of visions that we would want to inhabit or live into if we're going to live for 250 years or have offspring like so this all exists the voices are there it's just not even really distributed and they're not getting as much media tension as others well there's no power they do have they increasingly are having the power

like let's let's take an example like you know I want to contradict that point okay so there was an extraordinary race to actually push out like nano banana oh yeah yeah okay like and people say oh great like and let's push the software out you know what happened

and basically they said 10 of my eggs are broken and there was so much fraud in the delivery system

because people were not responsible pushing the technology out the technology is so beautiful I'm not like disputing whether it's beautiful or not I'm not disputing that the reckless nature of how it was done created so much fraud people were writing medical transcription saying like I'm so

“sorry I'm sick I cannot come to the office today if you want to be in like in like you know”

because insurance like yeah so now like what is the role of this big tech company you know the Karen house and others they are all like what I would call like basically like influencers or like opinion leaders so to say right but with employers or the whistleblowers but the power lies with the companies which are actually pushing this technology and they're being reckless more and more they're feels like a race I am like I'm Jen I'm like you know Gemini three

Jackie P.D. five maybe six and then that fellow is gonna say four and this fellow is gonna say seven they're gonna keep like perpetuating this donkey word and creating a very dysfunctional dystopian society you know corporate adoption of AI technologies this year in the financial times it has shown to have dropped and I think the reason for that is all this overblown hype about what these technologies can do and they can do a lot let's not mistake that. I'm not meeting the bloated or hyperbolic expectations

that were set a year two years ago so you're going to see market kind of response to the results that are being found or not in the case there's a case maybe and also things like the use of these technologies and schools in education we already touched on this conversation but you're going to get some kind of kickback based on the actual value or lack thereof of these tools the actual ROI or whatever and so yeah. So it's self-correcting. It's self-correcting. This is the classic

in tech it's the you know hype cycle, a drop of disillusionment, a ton of productivity like

you know it always happens up and then a new literacy is born it's that practices someone

and so there's disruptions you right like and this has happened with the internet happened with the printing press whatever like you know they they happen over different periods of time these are being so they feel sure and all of that you have the agency not with AI why not with AI we don't like we are giving up the control but so there's a whole class of people who are choosing not to use AI just like Steve Jobs kids didn't have screens where people are treating to

philosophy, to the humanities, to books, to slow reading, to semantic learning and having the capacity you mentioned one to story schools why is it that some of the wealthiest technologically patented people in their families or sending their kids to low-file one to story schools why.

“I went to mother story school also. Right and that's why. That's right but so we are seeing”

count trends already there was a study that was done by the BSI in the UK earlier this year 16 to 21 year olds 47% of them when Paul said they wish they'd been raised in an era without the internet think about no delivery no Spotify no porn no YouTube no Netflix they would forego all of that age 16 to 21 to be able to live more fully at that young young age like clearly something is not quite addressing on needs even at a young age before we develop the wisdom to be able to understand

some of the benefits have not been online the whole time you've heard that line it says it is the best of times it is the worst of times yeah there's this like cymbal to nady where it's like yeah it's in times yeah it is in times it is the worst of times but I having said everything you know and and and and not looking away from from the pain of the world I still find a lot to marvel over and think that there's great potential and like the eloquence and spirit of people like you

and there's lots of people like you lots of people like us just as many as potentially those that

we find disempowering or uninspired never doubt that a small passionate community group of people

“could change the world that we that's the only thing that ever has Margaret me like be the”

change you want to be the world like like it like I just you have we have to come back to that otherwise like we should ourselves you know absolutely absolutely and so I like the notion the notion of

okay and like how do we prepare the society for it right like here's another thought experiment

“we did okay so we just like in the early random like we went and thought to 5,000 people”

we talked like we asked them what do you know like what is artificial intelligence they didn't know they didn't know they did not know honey so so it's so it's so and so it's it's a it's a country with 1.4 billion people and it's like technologically very savvy so there's a lot of like coaching and teaching and educating and rebalancing the society thinking about the like let's take another example Larry Nasser the guy who was like caught like raping kids gymnastic kids like

you know he was sentenced to like a thousand years in prison he was only going to live another 20 years

now let's say like he lives for another 250 years castration is always an option

just saying so here are all so we have to think about criminal justice we have to think about like like what does it mean from financial perspective the the psychology of things how do we think about relationships everything everything needs to be taught but how exciting how exciting is the time but like who's thinking all of that well ask later but we need more of this we need more of these discussions we need more of this education we need more of this like we need to become the voices

that we want the society to look like and come join us yeah I mean that's why we're doing this

“that's why I'm really this conversation out in the world but I think these are very limited these days”

right you know they're not as much I don't I don't agree I see this in so many different places I think there's also I think that there's another question that's one step beyond that which is when we have access to differences you've long formed podcasts where people are coming together

there's always different sorts of small groups where people are having these sort of conversations

what's the next step you can't just be locked in talk there are a lot of these ideas floating around they're not necessarily new what I think needs to happen next is then some form of citizen assembly or some form of ways of bringing people together so their voices can be heard so we can have these discussion in greater depth and then that can inform regulation it can inform the way that we structure educational systems and change our political system that that's

the next conversation there is in abundance I find it everywhere every single place I talk or or place that I'm invited to go listen someone else talk like it's there is right under the surface I agree with you there's so many people talk about it the question is what next what do we do how do we take thoughtful considered action so what do you envision to what what do you think is the next tip like what should it happen? Citizens as entities get people together and start to think

about what these sorts of solutions might look like in practice lobby your parliament and the UK there was this ridiculous idea about digital ideas which of would of course also sort of problems around surveillance technologies which already massively skyrocketing UK millions of people to part in getting active against it and they've had to discuss it in parliament and the only person who was in favour was the prime minister every other almost every other MP that stood up

representing the constituency this is an insane idea what about when the hack happens which they

always do when there's a concentrated center of data and so like that there are ways in which you can

go against it so get political identify the problems come together discuss it find points of convergence and get political and act because nothing else will really move the needle in the way that we need it to quickly enough so you're offered longevity for three hundred years will you take it yes or no yes no yes join depends on if I love ones that they're with me yeah they are so your spouse chooses not to take it okay you choose to take it you still

marry you do you still stay married absolutely to another person oh well you say married and and then no no your spouse decided not to take the pill you decided to take the pill so you're

“on a life she's dead oh like oh did you remarried yeah what do I think so you would marry someone”

else yeah it's the same discussion if if if a spouse dies today I think okay don't want to get married full stop yeah stay open yeah go interesting so AIC is your 65% compatible with your spouse and someone offers a 95% compatible solution will you take the compatible solution or will you

body of wife who knows what depends on how my marriage is feeling it's feeling wonderful

and with all the non-rational elements as well then that would stay if it's feeling like you know

“what we're growing apart I'm gonna try this this new thing and you should try new thing too”

I'll revise my opinion I agree with them okay so you can you have two kids and you have one field to give the longevity period who would you give it I give it to the both of them and and let them decide it's agency I give it to the dog I have one field is the question

you have one field and you have two kids oh wow impossible question do you want to decide

she's the dog yeah give it to the dog I guess yeah you're gonna give it to the dog too right right yeah okay these are probably something you run into I like I'm sure someone is gonna run into this dilemma okay you're 200 years old and you can erase 100 years of your

“memory including a trauma and pain but you can retain joy and love would you keep it you can”

erase trauma and pain but you can keep love and joy the question is kind of keep wisdom

so if you have no love and joy versus trauma and pain but as simple as that wisdom so you

forget all the bad and you can only keep the good would you take that not if I lose the the wisdom that makes me who I am so you would not take it no me neither because you're comfortable things I can tell you guys that makes us human by the so you can upload your consciousness to a computer and you can live forever forever so you're no longer biological would you do it only if I have 100% reliable kill switch

no if I could simulate embodiment is this you're all from this you know full ethereal control but not constrained by entropy yeah full on like yes okay it's really quite lonely here in the middle of the edge I yeah I get it very efficient though yeah yeah yeah so the next one your most unfavorite politician gets longevity and you have the power to revoke it would you do it the most heated politician

I don't want to name names like because we all happen from opinions strongly consider so you would you walk it on dead we have I'd strongly consider well and and it's really it's a humanity thing right yeah think of you know Hitler or like you think think of an example like you know like at the the full full end of the spectrum yeah and and you're going to

“save you know millions of other lives like I think those are if if that decision was in your”

lap you'd have to to to weigh it okay what do you yeah with all the context in the ages you do not condemning them beyond their natural life span so I would also consider the harm cause by keeping them alive longer than they might otherwise actually live maybe we can have yeah sorry maybe we can get a have legislation that says that you can only govern within original biological lifespan that I like the sound of a radical life extension stuff makes it so that you're

not eligible to have control of relars numbers of people yeah yeah damn limit okay so you're the scientists to discover longevity you can release it everyone gets it all the consequences are discussed you know discussed or you destroyed and let the humanity stay at 80 like 80 years forever what like what is your choice whether I I want to give it to everyone and let them all live or are you going to say like screw it let everyone live up to 80 but like live of full life

I share it you share it give a long life can I ask a question like think about all the

it's not yes the proportion of people living in servitude outweave a number of people who

have privilege in not having to live in servitude until that was addressed I would say no I would hold I wouldn't destroy what do you think they would want what if I was six years old and struggling down a co-bought mine and my brother was dying because of poison and they could keep me on meds to keep me living for another 50, 60 years down those mines I don't want to get out far as a woman in sex slavery I'd want to get out like no I don't want to go to any point in

history where I was either darker skinned or female or a child when my rights are stripped and there are so many people living and exactly those conditions today some in my ancestral country and I would not choose that for anyone else these are sufferings which you need not to have in the world so until that was resolved I would withhold it does it not apply to even like poor people but poor doesn't necessarily mean suffering oh like they are suffering for

sure they don't have food to eat if you're talking about poor as in yeah I mean if you're

“caught yeah I think any system which has baked in inequality where you're keeping people”

you're withholding a dignified life from people the questions can they choose to take it or not can they choose to take it or not you but then have a choice no you can give it to all or even you don't like you're the scientist you can just give it to all of you yeah for me I give it to everyone and they can you know they can put it in their drawer and decide yeah but if you're giving people if you're taking people's passports from them making them work long hours and they're

sent me since I was cute they're not you're not going to give them access to the pill well so that that's a different question but this is all implied by that question well I I would have

told until that's who I think you're countering samples are powerful yeah how about you my friend

give it to me let's drop it into the bucket you know let's listen it sounds like a movie guys sorry but you want this a plurality of opinion yeah I love it I love that I love I love this by the way so the final question now I want you all to be honest we've discussed a lot whether it's like you know what happens to relation financial like all of this relation you're like you know like poverty there's in that responsible use of technology would you still

want to live longer to 300 years the answer the final answer yes yes I'm not so she's not sure you don't you don't you don't inspire her I'm scared I'm scared yes 100% yes you would be 100% yes okay and I'm a no why you know I don't know I don't know this

“worth it because I believe living in the moment is more important than living 300 years”

there's 300 years of violence those are not mutually exclusive I don't think there are like for me like you know if I if I live a beautiful life my mom lived a full life in some people even if I gave them like 700 years she wouldn't have they wouldn't have lived what my mom lived so for me that is living life not living 350 years or 250 years so I wouldn't that's just me okay final reflections Jason you go first well final reflections

is gratitude for stimulating my expanding conversation it's always nice to go deeply into this

subject matter which is exhilarating and existential and challenging and beautiful and yeah just really grateful for you guys yeah I think it's really important to have space in which you can unpack some of these more poignant challenging hopefully life affirming questions and I hope that more of these conversations will make their way into more spaces so thank you for making that possible well thank you to you all I yeah this was one of those

“where you know you know what's the point of life is make new friends learn new things I”

thought this was really amazing time spent yeah same I'm incredibly thankful to the three of you I know that like you came all the way from different parts of the country like you're here local and I'm going to come to your house so that you could cook me food such a hard work but super inspired by the conversation and the wisdom that we had and thanks for all the vulnerabilities because we went like into topics that were very uncomfortable somewhat provocative at times

and I sincerely thank you for the time that you guys spent I know you could have spent at anywhere else but thanks for making it my time and the viewers time we are grateful for

to evolve as technology evolves around us thank you so much and thanks to the four seasons I know and I will move yeah yeah and we are sincerely thankful to the four seasons hotel for letting us

host this show here in San Francisco it's an amazing hotel as you all could see and we are deeply

appreciative of their time and space and thank you so much if AI were to develop a pill that could

“increase your life's bound I think it would be so expensive that it would further stratify”

stratify the halves and the half nuts it's a scary thought that would be second doing a heartbeat I think generally being alive is preferable to be in debt and so if you get to extend that why not now oh wow it's a machine I don't think I'm about it but wow do it naturally I think I wouldn't you I think I wouldn't just for the possibilities that I could open no I'm not experiment

it's my object you know yeah I'm human religiously you know God gave me a certain years to live

people should live whatever God decided to live not by the you by the medicine I'm not by something else I believe in God so I believe that he created us and all things and so he created science and if science makes it so you can live longer than I don't know maybe no I would be happy just living my life and let the next generation decor personally me yeah I could see myself doing that I don't think everyone should do that because unless everybody you know and love around

just gonna take the pill because you could be very lonely for 200 years it was everybody used new and loved well with it and died if you say I'm I have a young wife or of course I would like live 300 more years right you know a good companion so the main thing for me my needs

“is really companion not money but companion sharing it with people that you really care about I think”

of you would make it more worthwhile I would like to know if my family will be here as well with the pill what kind of planning for my 300 years about it and with condition will I will live in the in 300 because if I will be poor or without good health or without good environment I'm not sure if I good that good news if live 300 I've seen people die with dementia I've seen people younger than me my brother died at 44 of cancer no to live longer but not live

well not interesting personally me I could handle that kind of stress part of everybody. I just don't know if 300 is at least in my mind I'm just not ready for that yet. Do you live for 300 years okay living I you know that's more life to live like hey

maybe I change my mind down the line but I can always choose that later as well.

I'm worried that it's going to get really old after 250 years but I think yeah if that exists then I would be I would probably take the pill. I wouldn't take it for just the sake of it. If the quality of life improves they couldn't really I'll take it. I'm happy with my life currently I'm living my life to the fullest with the person I love the most so I'm happy just being who I am I don't want to extend it. Yes I would I would take the pill.

You know it's 300 extra years because the years I'm already alive right now it's like it's um it's close to an eternity no humanity short I think it's like we kind of like go off the map very quick. I'm happy living a good 78 years and probably moving on. And no I I don't I don't want to take it I just want to enjoy life right now because the

“quality of life is important than the quantity of life correct how you age that is very”

important. We all have a finite amount of time the experience should be here we should contribute and enjoy and try and make a positive impact as much as we can but when the time is up the time is up. I think we should be focused on improving the quality of life and maybe but I think if you're a political quality of life then life spans will naturally extend I'm just concerned about what type of how that new fat that new ability would be manipulated

in our society so I'm 45 if someone handed me a pill tomorrow that guaranteed me that I would live

endless learning watching humanity reach for the stars but then I thought about it and I realized

something very profound the question was never would I live 300 years the question is

“am I living this life right now in a way that's worth extending that's the most important”

question because if I'm going to be going through the motions putting things off for some day have present today what's the point of living up to 250 years more than what I'm going to live

“today my mother lived 70 years she came from a single room in South India pond her wedding ring”

so I could get an education she lived 70 years and she lived more fully than most people would

live in 700 years so here's what I'm taking from this we don't need to live 300 years to live

“differently we don't need a pill we just need to ask if you had 250 extra years what would you”

do differently this afternoon what conversation would you stop avoiding what dreams would you stop

postponing what person would you finally forgive because whether you get to live 80 years or 800 years

the only moment you will ever actually have is the one that you're living in right now so what are you doing with all of the time that you have live the life to the fullest because you don't need to live up to 250 years [XBOX SOUND]