Talk Your Book: Why Commodities Are Working

more about the Pimco commodity strategy active ETF. As ticker CM DT that when we talk about today,

Pimco.com to learn more. Welcome to Animal Spears, a show about markets, life, and investing. Join Michael Batnik and Ben Carlson as they talk about what they're reading, writing, and watching. All opinions expressed by Michael and Ben are solely their own opinion and do not reflect the opinion of Redhall's wealth management. This podcast is for informational purposes only and should not be relied upon

for any investment decisions. Clients of Redhall's wealth management may maintain positions in the security discussed in this podcast. Welcome to Animal Spears, Michael and Ben. Like one of the things that I've written about a lot of the years is that commodities are not

foreign vesting. Minotidies are for trend following. They're perfect for because they have such a boom

bus cycle and they can go years without working and doing pretty bad. And it's like when they work,

“they really work. So I think that trend following slash momentum indicators on these types of assets”

make a lot of sense to me. Thoughts. They are really working. Now it's working, right? I wonder how many people have gotten chopped up with the last few weeks with the volatility. They do lend themselves to that because, well, it's not to say there aren't on their lying fundamentals because there is supply demand, buying, selling, et cetera. But a lot of it, a lot of the supply end of demand is driven by the price and by the behavior of the buyers and the sellers.

Right. Did I just say a lot without saying anything? I think I might. You're right. Like they say to cure for higher prices as higher prices and cure for lower prices as low prices as you're right. So we talked to Greg share now. He's a managing director of portfolio manager at Pimco and the real assets team. And we talked about commodities and

“gold and everything around it. And he talked about how, you know, Pimco, I think is known as more”

of a macro type of portfolio management firm, right? But he talked about how they use momentum in trend in their commodity strategy. So this is interesting talk. Here's our talk with Greg. Greg, welcome to the show. Thank you very much for having me. All right. Today we're talking about the Pimco commodity strategy active exchange trade fund that ticker a CMDT. And I guess this is a sign of the times that we're talking to Pimco and we're not talking bonds, we're talking to

modities. So what is a start of the high level? What is the underlying or overlying? Hey, what's the difference between those two phrases? Either way, what do we talk about here? What's going on with this fund? Well, so this fund is a commodity investment where we look to gain exposure to a basket of commodities. Now, where this fund is not married to any one index, the idea is it can invest in any commodity, whether it be part of the traditional commodity

universe that the primary indices such as Bloomberg commodity index invest in, or it could be commodities outside with the goal of giving the investors exposure to not only an asset class that is differentiated from most other things in the portfolio, but also provides inflation and geopolitical hedging. So this portfolio is focused on things like oil, natural gas, agriculture products, whether it be cattle or corn and soybeans and precious metals, gold, silver. They may have been

in the news recently because they've had some very dramatic moves in addition to extraordinary rallies being one of the best asset classes the last six years, not just the last six months, and base metals as well. So it's a broad investing universe, but we're fully active ETF. So do you have a bogear at benchmark you're trying to hit because I know some of the benchmarks are different. Some of them have way more energy and oil exposure, some of them have way more gold exposure.

“Do you have something that you're peg two or are you pretty much kind of a go anywhere type of fund?”

We are a go anywhere fund, but that said we are cognizant of the fact that our investors

will ultimately hold us to some benchmark. You know, we can't just be out there on the range,

all entirely on our own. So Bloomberg commodity index, which is the largest index in terms of AUM tracking it, is the index that we think of ourselves as roughly benchmark too, but when we assemble our own investments, we don't start off with saying, let's tilt our investments versus the index. We start out by saying, what's the best assets to own and what's off is the best return. In addition to that, because we have a momentum factor, we could be as little as 80%

invested and up to under 20% invested. The idea being when the markets are souring, hopefully we do risk them and conversely when they're doing well, hopefully we can achieve a outcome that's aligned with the investor's hopes. So I'm looking at the website and you've got a portfolio

There's some CMOs. There's a mutual fund. There's some corporate bonds. There's some short-term bonds

“that looks like. And then I scroll down and I see you've got on the right-hand side. You've got”

commodity exposure as a percentage of the fund. This will record in this as of February 9th. And you've got energy, emissions, livestock, as you mentioned. But then you've also show maturity distribution and interest rate and sector exposure. Are those like, do you have that in every instrument just because you're a PIMCO and you're a bond shop or why are there maturity distributions if we're talking about commodities? Okay, so a few things. One, when you buy a commodity

fund, mutual fund, or you buy an ETF, they you pray to $100 you invest because you're buying futures, you get $100 a collateral. And what we do is we act of the manage that collateral

to try to improve upon basically earning so far. Basically, it's easy for PIMCO to include

our funds in the broad investment process and try to add additional value there. Then, in terms of direct, that's where we get a duration or hold things. But also, in the commodity space, we don't only own the front contracts. We want to own contracts that are out the curve. If, for example, they offer better role yields. And some of our signals, for example, if you want to do momentum strategies in commodities, they work meaningfully better if you own a few months

out rather than the very front. So we've designed our exposures to try to optimize for the for things like carry and momentum and other factors to try to improve upon the ultimate returns relative to the baseline index. So you have some applied leveraging. So if you're trying to get

to that 120% in all the momentum indicators or green, getting that extra leverage for you

is not that difficult to do in this space. Correct, because we have tons of cash. Cash is not something we're short of in a traditional commodity index. You know, the initial margins and variable margins is like 10, 12%. It leaves you a lot of cash to remain to invest otherwise. So I want to talk about gold because that's the one that's been in the news a lot. Obviously, silver is well, but Michael and I were looking at this last week and in the 2020s alone,

because gold is done so well, especially in the last couple of years, gold is up like 22% per year in the 2020s. It's been on a crazy run. And this is historically boom bus asset. Now, there's not a ton of history to go on with gold because it was pegged for all those years. And but looking back to the 70s, it's you see these huge periods of really great returns. And then these these long decades of like kind of subpower turns. Do you think that's that's still the

case where like does the fact that gold has been up so much? Does that worry you at all that like we could see the other side of this? Or do you think that like no, there's still like a lot of things going in in the favor of gold right now? I mean, I grew up writing GSEI research when I

“been my first job on Wall Street for six years. And you know, you have to be a student of history”

and recognize that up to that point in time from the late eight that there were the eighties until the early 2000s, gold actually fell in nominal end real terms. So, you know, the history is is repeat with examples where particularly in other commodities where there are supply cycles and the supply cycle changes like post 2000 and 10 where the Shell Revolution really took off. Like we dramatically changed the supply outlook for oil and as a result, we ended up having

poor returns for quite a while. And that's an nature of commodities. They do have cycles particularly on the supply side. You have to be quite a tune and aware of. But specifically on the gold, one of the things that differentiates today from many other periods in the past, certainly in the past 30 or 40 years. And particularly since when gold really became financialized, which was really when the ETFs came into the forefront in 2002 to 2004 kind of window and really democratized

owning gold where you didn't just have to go coins or going bars, but you could do it through your fidelity account or Vanguard account. You know, right now we're in a world where there's a changing global landscape where political and geopolitical considerations in addition to inflation considerations have driven an interest in emerging market and develop market countries that have like a historically big relationship with other emerging market countries have been looking to

diversify by assets that actually helped them in inflationary environment by assets that for security reasons. Gold is still one of those that you can import on shore and it doesn't have risk of

“confiscation. I think they event after 2022 when the U.S. and Europe froze and seized Russian assets.”

I think it was like a pretty big watershed moment for a number of countries and a number of investors who were like, wow, we have to actually think about our security of assets as well as

I understand that this is not a static portfolio, but how do you, when you're talking to investors

“and you're saying you should own this or consider this instead of the B-com or something similar,”

how do you differentiate what you're doing versus what you might get in an index that doesn't really change that much? Well, one I think we can because we're dynamic because we have the ability to take 500 to 600 basis points on average and tracking error if you think we have a modicum of skill. I mean, even if we think it's better than a half a sharp, but let's just say it is just a half. You know, if we're taking 500 basis points of deviation, it's 250 basis points of alpha on average over time.

It's a pretty meaningful and an answer that typically has called 15 to 18 wall. Now, if I think about our portfolio over the fullness of time since we launched, or since, you know, we've had separate accounts that have been doing this at Pimco, I think you can get about a 300 to 400 basis points better carry in the commodity portfolio, like this is pretty meaningful tilts that we think over time will end up generating a better return. Now, all the caveats are required, you know, in any given

year and you give a period of time, you know, that won't be guaranteed out performance, but we think in the fullness of time, you know, the active managing versus the ETF is very helpful versus the benchmark, and an ETF is very helpful. The, the ETF is relatively new. You guys launched this in 2023, but I would imagine that there have been commodity strategies that you've run internally

or in different wrappers at Pimco. Yes, our first commodity mandate was 2000, our mutual fund

is for all this mutual funds been around since 2002, our second mutual fund was launched in 2011, and we've been running separate accounts throughout this whole period of time. So all the strategies that you have in our ETF today have been in one form or another in all these products as part of our alpha, you know, not every strategy is existed for 15 years, but most of them have, and that's

“part of what I think that really gives us an edge over time is that we have a very long history of”

doing this, you know, being in the business for 24 years, 25 years. You mentioned the momentum indicators, and commodities are a great place for that because of these boom bus cycles, right, like they tend to trend over time. I'm curious, how much of your process is more like momentum slash trend following, and how much of it is more macro, because that's a lot of the things people talk about with commodities these days. You mentioned the fact that we're having this, you know,

de-globalization, and there's the debasement trade, and government debt levels, and all this stuff, and that's a lot of the macro indicators people point to for commodities, but how much does that fit into your plan versus just following the trends and what's going up? So momentum strategies amount to about 20 to 25% of our deviation from the benchmark. The rest of it actually has a lot of other versions of it, like carry where we try to maximize the carry in the portfolio of both dynamically

and on a static basis, and we have other behavioral strategies that are in there as well. Like we have seen something we have in the equity markets, which is if you look at the skew of the returns of an asset, when things tend to be right skewed, you tend to find there's a lot of ownership of it, and when things are left skewed, it tends to be heavily under-owned, and that applies in commodities, as well. So there are many different factors that drive this, and it's not just a trend following

strategy at all. You know, it is going to get you beta on the commodity markets. We're going to use momentum to help us with tilts, but we're going to use a total of four other factors as well

“to help us. Now, on the development trade, I think we find interesting about the conversation,”

is if you look at flows into treasuries, you look at flows into US equity markets, you look at the stability in the 10 and 30 year yield curve. Like the development trade is hard to really see, and if you scan out just 18 months on the dollar, the move has not been as not been massive, but certainly it's crept up into the conversations about precious metals a lot. But that's hard to tease out, because in a lot of other asset classes, you're not really seeing

the impact of that idea just yet. So ultimately, when we think about commodities, we try to actually

balance both the macro and the micro as of each, recognizing that the more we can do in a systematic and back test isn't thoroughly vetted way, the better we're going to do over a long time. All right, so we've spent the first, I don't know, 10 minutes of this conversation talking about some of the things that you do a little bit differently, the history of Pimko one of these things, if you were to give a two minute story to an investor about why you think real assets are working

today and have been working for the past couple of months, because I agree, it's more complicated than just the dollar debasement. How do you tell the story or what investors are telling themselves?

and you had the textbook reason why you wanted to own commodities in the portfolio, it was saying

when there is a inflation cycle and an inflation upspitting, and certainly inflation, besting the current forecast of inflation. So like the inflation surprises, commodity tends to be the most effective hedge to a 6040 portfolio, where if you have inflation surprising to the upside, typically would expect to have negative returns for nominal assets, such as fixed income, and you'd also have equity markets tend to be way down particularly if that leads to a fed hiking

cycle. And that's exactly what happened. If you look over the course of this decade, which includes like the COVID, which was dramatically awful for commodities, commodities still end up being one of the best asset classes that you could have owned. Mag seven is a really hard benchmark for the

SAP X-Mad seven. The commodities have performed gold has been one of the best performing asset

classes even aligned with the Mac seven. So we've had a textbook example of inflation and the impact on portfolios and commodities did what they were supposed to do. Now, the thing to also note about commodities, and this is really differentiated from other real assets, is a lot of people who want to own real estate or infrastructure, or some of these private investments found themselves really long-duration, and a really highly illiquid asset. So in 2022, if you had real assets and you

wanted to sell a real asset to buy equities as they were selling off, or pivot into fixed income, portfolio, and nominal assets, like commodities is one of the few places you could do that. And it's as an asset manager for me talking about like, oh, I want to be an environment where people sell what I manage for them. But in some respects, it is a little bit of a diversification

“and an insurance tool. Now, today, I think one of the things that's interesting is, in 2000,”

I was part of the team that had sold or authored the revenge of the old economy papers that kind of underpinned the last super cycle. And the idea was supply side investments versus inadequate as they currently stood in the late 90s to sustain and meet future demand growth. Now, at that time, we didn't understand or appreciate just how much the Chinese accession to the WTO was going to matter because they really dramatically changed the growth rates for a lot of commodities, metals,

energy, everything. Today, when we sit there and say, look at the demand growth centers, they are AI, which is very commodity intensive. Energy transition, very commodity intensive. Even if at the end of the day, we're going to hopefully produce cheaper molecules, the construction of a windmill, and all these power plants are very commodity intensive, as well as the infrastructure to get them to deliver to the load pockets. In addition to that, we've seen meaningful increase in

military industrials, cap X likely to come down the pipeline. And lastly, we definitely have a strategic competition in the world that is leading to investment and supply chains and supply chain redundancy, and even so far as I'm going to use the word hoarding, but that's not exactly what building

up strategic stockpiles like we've announced for critical minerals in the United States, and China

appears to have been doing an energy as well as in some metals. That there is a globe that is creating this artificial demand right now, and I'm calling it demand again. It's storage, but it's acting as demand today to build resiliency in the system. And we're not really seeing that, so in a long, long, long time. So many respects, it has some of the same hallmarks as this to 2000s where companies are spending less money per free cash flow, they're being conservative

with their growth and their growth cap X at a time where we see a lot of the pillars of demand

“that are strong. Near-term, can I see copperwood trace lower? Absolutely, I think it's gotten”

very frothy recently, inventories are building, there are commodities that near-term we think are very vulnerable, but long-term, if you can't invest in new supply chains and you're going to have this demand growth accumulating over the years, commodities are compelling, and may present an inflation risk to your broad portfolios. I think one of the narratives over the years that people have thought is that the diversification piece is that when stocks do bad commodities are good,

but this decade we've seen both perform well concurrently, and I think that's because sometimes the gold bug people are kind of paid with this brush of being negative all the time and from a bearish or whatever, and gold's going to win because the system fails, but I guess you'd have to look at this as a good thing because all the government spending is going to mean higher growth. Even if inflation isn't going crazy now, maybe we've gone from a world of 2% inflation in 2010s,

a 3% today, which doesn't seem like a lot, but it is obviously in the grand scheme of things, and then you have the AI build-off. So is that the kind of situation where we can actually have both things do do well, right? We're going to have commodities do well, plus the stock market do well,

“because we're going to have higher growth. I mean, I think that's what it has to be.”

The explanation, we have real growth industries, grand of their highly leveraged AI right now,

But I think that's kind of, if I couldn't say that about the first three years of this decade,

because I think that was a general supply shock, I think you're transitioning into something today where you could say there are real demand pillars, and you're looking at your pan, you're looking at your, you're looking at the US that has real fiscal stimulus in the pipeline, plus the strategic building of inventories to build resiliency. Like these are moments where you can kind of get strength and support on the economy that supports

the equity market and supports the commodity markets. Now, I'm not going to lie when I see gold having a 10% one-day move. I get worried that a systemic asset is telling you that there's something kind of scary under the hood. There's a risk out there. We've seen to step up in volatility in the last week or two, I think that's likely to be an ongoing feature, but hopefully when we can navigate well. You don't get to choose when the Reddit players

“hop into these assets anymore, right? And they cause the volatility. I mean, that's what it seems”

like at least that just people are hopping onto these. But does the AI risk also, is it also part of the commodities complex? Like if they have to pull the cap X back, and some of these big players say, you know what, we're not seeing the ROI yet, we're pulling back, is that a risk to the commodities as well. Well, if the AI stocks sell off, well, they will the commodity sell off as well, potentially. Well, I want to be careful to say it's like the AI stocks

sell off because it's a valuation change or they're not going to generate the ROI, but commodity investing. Like overall, there's still building a lot. That's one thing. If it turns out that this the AI build out is just not going to happen, then if yes, then there's both are susceptible for sure. But I could easily see a situation. I'm not an equity analyst. I'm not covering the AI companies, but if you do have a question about the ability for them to return money to investors

and earn their ROI, like yeah, you could see those valuations changing. Typically, what we've seen in commodities, if you ask anybody in the investing universe and commodity guys are the most used to this, like what happens when there's a massive surplus of capital that rushes into one asset for one corner of the market, like we tend to have increased volatility and risks. Right. I can't say anything about AI and that's in that context. If we're going to be in that

“valuation trap. Greg, I'm curious to hear a Pimp goes, how's view on this?”

Ben and I were talking today about the market, what happened last week, people rushing out of software because AI is going to disrupt the hell out of it. Obviously, everybody is guessing at this point who are going to be the winners, who are going to be the losers. So whatever, you just sell everything, re-rate them and pick through the rubble after simultaneously, people are saying, hey, wait a minute, Microsoft, how much of your remaining performance obligations are coming from open AI? That sounds

like a big number. We don't believe you. So they sell Microsoft. The second biggest market

capital client in a single day of all time. Now, obviously, the numbers are bigger, but still, it was, it was notable. And you also have the rush into the anti-AI trades, the real, the real asset. It's not, not the commodity trades, but consumer staples and energy and materials. Every single material stock is beating the index this year. 95% of energy stocks are beating the index this year. So my read on this is like, listen, it's hard to get too bearish on the market

because the capex spending is, it's one percent of GDP. It's massive. We have inflation going in the right direction sideways to down. I guess, you know, that's up for interpretation. And then you've got a new Fed chair coming in who's probably going to be accommodative to the market. And so like all of that said, it's hard to get too bearish. Okay. On the other hand, if I were to make a bearish case, it's what's happening in the market with the rush to staples and the real assets, that if you were

to look back in this was like, you know, we're near a topic. That is, that is late cycle behavior,

right? Or so, like where do you, now this time is always different, right? So I don't know. It's

a lot of mixed messages as always. The future is no clear today that it was, you know, a year ago. But how do you see that, the late cycle a little bit? Well, if anything, we're thinking could be in a re-exaleration of, you know, with the fiscal stimulus and you have some benefits of cap X that you can end up in a situation where the cycle growth is actually improving. And he may not be at the late cycle yet. And unfortunately, for the last 25

or 30 years, we've seen a lot of times the late cycle become challenged by resource constraints.

“And maybe that's what the, that's what the equities are, are telling you. On that side, that like”

there's a real view that that that might be a limiting regulator and that becomes the inflation problem.

in six days. You know, we could have it. We, I mean, we're susceptible to like, you know,

“a tweak here and you know, another thing. So I do think we have a bit of a rotation because I think”

the commodities have been undervalued at underperform for a long time. Like we're in a better position than they'd been, but it's subject to change. Volatility is very high. The one narrative that has made the most sense to me about gold is as you mentioned, after the Ukraine Russia war, all the central banks deciding like gold makes way more sense for us. So how much of the gold buying has been done by central banks? I mean, if you could ball-park it,

I guess. And then like how long do you expect this demand to last for? Is there a risk that all the southern East Central banks say, all right, you know, our coffers are filled. We're good for while. Or is this something where they constantly need to refill and keep buying? Certainly when you go back two or three years ago when they started, it was a very large share. I think the last, you know, six months there's been much more retail participation.

You know, we like to talk to our colleagues around the world and they talk about the lines outside the gold coin and silver stores or you can buy coins and stars. You know, people are trying to get the access to it. But certainly central banks have been a major impetus for why gold buying has been resilient. Now, the hard part is to know where the price sensitivity comes in. All right, we've had a major alley up. I wouldn't be surprised if central banks pull back buying.

And then the first 15% retrace, you start seeing the activity increase again.

But I do think the destination for a lot of them is to be able to hedge their economic and political vulnerabilities. And that's been a big driver. Because at one day, you could be aligned with the, you know, the western world order on on foreign affairs and China on economics. And then you end up having like a major potential issue. And I feel like that's been a big driver of some of their interests. And to the standpoint, they want to diversify

holdings away from treasuries. That may be part of it. But we're still not seeing it really in the lot of the treasury data where we still see a lot of foreign interest to buy. That could change. That could change. But, you know, as of right now, that's

the data points to how active is the portfolio. And how do you balance short and

versus long terms? So let's say you say you're all thinking, hey, precious metals are a secular winner. We think that the new bear mark, the new bull market started whenever. And we think for reasons, X, Y and Z, it is room to run. We also think that silver has gone on parabolic. And in the short term, that is probably an asset that we want to either light it up on, or maybe

“not put new money to work there. So how do you balance those to the extent that they even exist?”

Well, so we, we have, is primarily a quantitative strategy in the sense that we have a lot of our signals are going to run weekly. We have a weekly rebounds. Some strategies rebounds, every week, other ones get slowed down where we rebounds a portion of the portfolio over the course of four weeks, so that we're not so reactive to short-term price movements. But in general, we, we are fully active in, and our rebalancing as the market signals change. Now,

one of the traditional things that ends up happening is that if you have a rally like silver, your vals have gone up, your money, your percent of your portfolio has gone up because it's so vastly outperformed, that it becomes a much higher risk as it's a momentum following strategy. It would actually be selling some of the rallies to like rebalance, you know, it's risk factors. So, you know, in a given week, we could have a view that silver buying is going to continue to

come, but if we are managing to a risk target and we're managing to evolve, you know,

“you have to be very careful without recognizing the fact that like, you know, you have a lot more”

risk to downside if you're own it, right? Then you have to like kind of make sure that you're staying within the parameters that are reasonable for the portfolio. So, that's how we kind of approach, we want to make sure we don't have any major concentration of risks. You know, if someone owns us, they don't want to be a portfolio of silver. Like all of a sudden, we went from 20V to 100V, like that's like the person doesn't own the right thing. Are you actively

rebalancing when you see a pair of lock moves like that? We're actively rebalancing every week for sure and we're managing our concentration of risks, you know, daily if we need to. So, you have some sort of, like, you have like volatility targets that you're looking for, as an allocation targets you're looking for if something gets really outside of the bands. Well, yeah, mostly because we have risk targets. So, we're, it's not just, if you don't do anything

and you've fallen in your positions double, or these have portioned your portfolio, you're going to become highly concentrated in that risk. So, our strategies will reflect that. So, we've spent the most of the conversation talking about real assets, commodities,

on that side? Well, the agriculture space, despite the headlines regarding

“trying to trade deals, you know, has largely driven by relatively good harvest over the last few years.”

After a few years, where where their volatility really degraded, the global supply chain and addition to that, you know, the Russian invasion of Ukraine deteriorated, Ukraine's ability for least a year to continue to export its wheat surprise. So, now they've been generally speaking falling over the last couple of years in part because the harvest have been good in the supply risk have come down. Oil has been more interesting. You know, of any of the commodities,

besides silver and gold, oil has some of the biggest geopolitical cross-currence, because what we're seeing is a bifurcation of markets because of all the sanctions, both directly on a country and extraterritorial sanctions, with the U.S. and the help of some of its partners aggressively going after the shadow fleet of Russia and Iran. We're really seeing a world in which you have two separate markets. You have the market that is

acceptable to be delivered into the Western Europe and U.S. And then you have another set of oil that's not. So, we have the situation in the oil market where the tradable oil has actually had a meaningful decline because politics has driven other oil to at times being tough to sell. So, if you look

right now in the oil market, Russia's supply has built up by like 40 or 50 million barrels on water.

We've seen them build up in Iranians supplies. Also, if that was deliverable to the market, we would have a more bearish outlook on the oil because the oil quote is there.

“But it's because it's not deliverable. You have a real bifurcation. And I think that's an outcropping”

of the growing sanction application in the U.S. as you use primarily, but also Europe following the invasion and has created a situation where like, you're not trading oil in general. You're trading specific types of oil in specific locations. As part of the reason why the returns in oil have actually been pretty good despite the fact that OPEC has been increasing supplies over the last six to nine months, which otherwise would have expected to be depressing to the price. But it's just

we have two separate markets right now. For the first time in my career, I can really say after 27 years, this is a unique backdrop. All right, last question. Not tax advice, but just at a high level, how do these futures contracts work? Like if we're going to consider investing in something like this, what do we need to be aware of? So this is not a K-1, so that actually is helpful. So there's

“no, you know, that is efficient. We use a K-min fund to help improve tax efficiency and also”

make sure that the income is considered good. Beyond that, I don't know how to answer the question for your audience. So I may not actually, I might definitely not the tax consultant in that sense,

but you know, as futures are always a mix of short-term and long-term and that will show up

as well, but this is not a K-1 investment opportunity. Okay, good stuff, Greg. For people that want to learn more about the strategy, where do we direct them? Well, the PIMCO website is a good place to look. That's PIMCO.ai. Well, there's AI built into it not to help you find us, but PIMCO.com will be the best search to go. All right, Greg, appreciate the time. Thank you. Thank you very much. Okay, thank you to Greg. Thank you also to PIMCO. Check out PIMCO.com for more.

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