Brandi Carlile

- Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert.

I'm Dan Shepard, I'm joined by Lily Padman. - Hi.

- I've always broke there.

(sighs) - What's with me, Lily?

“- It's very 'cause it's a ding ding ding ding.”

Oh my gosh, it's a ding ding ding to the episode. - It is. - Her voice breaks in one of her most famous songs. - Ah, really good job. Brandy Carlisle, Brandy Carlisle is an 11-time Grammy award

winning singer songwriter and producer. Her albums are, by the way, I forgive you. In these silent days, the story returning to myself. Currently on the human tour for dates and tickets go to BrandyCarlyell.com.

Guys, I loved her. - You, this was such a fun day. - Yeah, I really, really loved her. - And she sings for us. - Yes, she sings for us.

Please enjoy Brandy Carlyell. (upbeat music) - So happy to have you. - Yeah, and I'm really excited to talk to you guys. This is awesome.

- I purposely was not around, 'cause I knew the stakes were really high. You just met Anna? - Yeah, yeah, she was great. Okay, she was so nervous to meet you.

- She's never asked in eight years to meet anybody.

- She was like, I have to. She's a huge fan. - Oh man. - Well, I have this thing called Girls Just One Weekend every year. - Yeah.

- Mexico?

“- Yeah, it's like life changing for a lot of people.”

- Yeah, yeah, yeah. - 'Cause you get lured into it thinking it's a festival, but really it's like a whole experience. You gotta come. - Okay.

- Okay, it's a female performers, right? - Yeah. - Our men welcome. - Men are treated like absolute celebrities. - Oh.

- Oh my God, the way that we basically hoist you onto our shoulder to carry you. - Oh my God. - Oh my God. - Thank you man.

- Thank you come to our fest. - Oh wow, okay, now I want to go. I love you, Jimmy. - I have merch for Just Men that says like, "I survive, Girls Just One Weekend."

- Oh, that's great. - That's great. - We sing, "Let's hear it for the boys." - Oh yeah. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - That's great.

- Okay, I think you do great there, Dad. - Well, I just think when Mem will leave the country to attend a festival with all women or non-binary headliners, it's like, yeah, that's all I see on you. - It doesn't matter, right?

- Okay, good, good, good, good. I was reading about it and you must know that we heard the most sincere and authentic review of this festival from Anna. - Oh, yes, she had fun.

- Oh yeah, she had fun. - She got mad.

- She had a million questions.

I'm like, is it a lesbian festival? And she's like, "Yes, they have no, no, no, not overtly, but yes." - Yeah, a lot of gay men are starting to come too. - Okay, which is really cool.

- Well, there's just like whole contingency of really, suffocally focused gay men that are really enjoying. - Okay, this sounds like the happiest group imaginable to be online.

“- I think that's why it's like, yeah, it's pretty good.”

- Yeah, that's awesome. - Kristen has described it, she's not been, but just given all the feedback from Anna, she said, "You know, it's the polar opposite of Woodstock 99, if you're trying to think it would have been."

- It may be any more, in one way or another, it's a response to that. - Yeah, but you saw Lilith Fair when you were a kid. Yeah, you went to the Lilith Fair festival? - Yep, that's actually what I think got me wanting

to do this was that. - Yeah, what age were you when you went to that? - 17, so so formative. - Yeah, yeah. - I had this one experience in particular where

I was just a little scally-wed kid all sunburned and drinking mountain dudes, like these big refillable mountain dudes all day. And I like took my bucket of mountain dude to have it refilled to the mountain dude stand.

And there was this lesbian standing in line behind me and she goes, "Honey, what are you getting to drink?" And I was like, "A mountain dude." And she goes, "You need some water and you're sunburned." - Oh, she put sunscreen on my shoulders.

- She made me feel my bucket of water. On one hand, I was like, "Hmm, but then I got older and I was like, I need a festival like that, you know?" - Yeah, yeah. - That's like, we're taking care of each other, you know?

- Lookin' out. - Yeah. - That is the opposite of what's stuck. - Exactly. - It does make me think what you tell your children

when you have children, which is like, "Okay, if you're alone, you find a police officer." - Yeah. - You cannot find a police officer, which you likely will not find a woman with kids.

- Yeah, that's what I said, we say. - You find a mom. - Yeah, you can't find a woman with a single woman. - A single woman. - You can't find a lesbian if you can't find a woman with a woman.

- Yeah, it's got a lesbian. - It's got a lesbian. - It's like, "Find a dude and a Corvette with a shirt off." - Yeah. - You might as well just run into the street.

- Uh-hum, where was the Lilith? Was it in Gasworks Park? - A good question. You know Seattle. - I've drank in a lot of 40s that grass works.

- Okay. - Yeah. - I did it a girl for nine years. It was from Mary'sville. - Okay.

- No, it's at the Gorge. - Oh, perfect. - In fact, that's where it started in 1997. - Perfectly. - And that was the year.

- Tracy Chapman was on that line. - Sarah and the Indigo girl was the amazing Erica Badu. - Oh, wow. - Sheenado Connor was there the year on that line.

- I love Erica Badu. - Oh, my God. - Raven's Dale. - Raven's Dale. - What a Dale's in that area.

- There might be a Dale in there. - Yeah, there's a Dale in here up there. - Now Raven's Dale, it seems almost impossible 'cause it's 28 miles from Seattle yet it has a population of 500 people.

- Well, Seattle's like that.

It's a bit like Anchorage in a way where you can land in Seattle

“and get yourself like the most delicious, silky”

Capaceno you've ever drank and then half an hour later see a bear. - Yeah, you know. - Yeah, you know. - You know.

- Yeah, that's what I love about it. - That is cool. The history of the town fascinated me 'cause it's a coal mining town. You know, an associate Washington with coal mining.

- You kind of can.

I mean, it was one of the first in terms of that.

Raven's Dale's a bit of a subsidiary of another town called Black Diamond, which is a neighboring town and actually little red all in live to there. - Oh.

- Wow. - Yeah, for a time. - And yeah, when I was a kid, we were running around there's coal mines everywhere. You got to watch out for mine shafts and everything.

- Yeah. - And I got my last spanking for playing in a mine shafts. - Oh gosh. - I'm so jealous. I don't know.

Love the mine shaft, too, when I was a kid. We liked rock cories, 'cause there was water in there. - And mine shafts, they got water in 'em, too. - I bad. - But they're bottomless.

“- Okay, so you like to flirt with danger.”

If you're playing over there, you're rascal, a little bit. I would stand far away. - I think fairles, the right word. - Fairle, that's correct.

- Fairle, that's correct.

- So I grew up in a rural area, too. And I will say, that's not necessarily what I wanted for my kids, but boy, do I cherish the amount of, we were just lighting stuff on fire.

I mean, they were allowed to do it ever came across your mind. 'Cause there's no supervision and there's no one around to catch you. - What parts of it don't you want for your kids? - I, again, this is probably rooted in all my own

personal stuff, but it's like too much privacy out there. Too many places to hide. And just like I couldn't get caught light and shit on fire, adults were getting caught for stuff. And there's a general, that part of it, I don't love.

- Yeah, no, you're exactly right. - Look, and again, I would love to see that on this, but where I was from, we had to have over indexed. We had a serial killer, it's small town. Every single person was molested, I know.

I just feel like it's safer here. - Yeah, we don't just sleep over, yeah. A lot of people don't anymore. - It's amazing. That is something about our generation,

having realized that maybe we all had too much freedom, whether we lived in a rural area or not. - Yeah, yeah. - I was trying to explain that to my kids. I would be like, we would get on our bikes.

We'll be able to talk in the morning, and we would maybe come home at some point after dark. And no one knew where we were, how we were getting money or candy. - We weren't even curious.

Didn't even ask you what your day was like. - No. - Yeah, it's crazy. - In back to what's dangerous about it, it's like, I know you know 'cause I had it a million times.

If my kids run into somebody dicey on the street, which they do, let's out later, there's a bunch of homeless people.

They always have someone inside they could yell too.

How many times when you're a kid in your out the woods or your summer, and you come across the middle, like a sold adult. And it's freaky, you know, there's nobody around. And this, yeah, that's in the woods for some reason, too.

You have a lot of those moments when you grow, I think, rural. - I do, and I didn't experience any significant traumas, but I can see the near misses now. How many times I got close to my battleship? - Yeah.

- It's crazy. I remember getting in this guy's truck that was like the town scary guy, but he told me that there were trout, biting in this quarry.

And I was like, no, that's an empty pond, this full of water. And he's like, no, there's a stream that's dump in Cokiny and do it. I'll show you right where they're biting.

And I was like, I shouldn't get in your truck, but I want those Cokiny. - I can't imagine loving fish. - And I did.

“- Like, that's what you people do to go get dry.”

Like, I don't present this guy, but I do want Cokiny. - Cokiny. Cokiny. - Yeah. - Oh my God.

- No, I did, and it was fine. But I mean, near miss, right? Or even that the guy would put a 13 year old girl in his truck is horrifying. Without an arpair's permission.

And then totally innocuously, take her to shore a word of catch trout. It's kind of unbelievable. - You got lucky. - I got lucky every time, but a lot of folks don't.

So I actually know what you mean about that. - Yeah, it's just that element. And again, I love it 'cause I got through it. And I feel like I got all my confidence from that because I was navigating these weird situations

and dangerous ones and kids were getting hurt. And all that, I think you entered the real world. I got to get a job and pay for bills, that's fine. - The question is, how do you recreate those kinds of experiences for your kids

without exposing them to the possibility of real trauma? Do you want them to have the street smarts we have? Do you want them to understand that not everybody is upper middle class or privileged in a way, but you can't falsify or recreate?

- I know, I'm coming across as a kind of parent. We're actually quite free range. - Really? - Oh yeah, like we were in Denmark and we're like, cool, this is Trevoli's Gardens.

It's huge, but it's all encapsulated. I'm like, have fun. We will see you in six hours. Here is a critical. You know, like, go.

- And there are 11 and 13, am I right? - At the time they were 9 and 11, yeah. - With other kids too though, right? - Well, they were split up. So, yes, Lily went with maybe Lincoln,

but Dahlie and Delta got it in their mind. They were going to set a record on a roller coaster and they wrote it 60 times and a row or something. So they did split up. We're in another country and say, yeah, it'll work out.

They're smart. So I do have that side of me too. - Oh yeah. And that's how you do it. You set up those situations of kind of controlled chaos.

It's within reason, yeah.

- Yeah. - Okay, what were mom and dad like what were they up to? I think we share an addict father. - Yeah. (laughing)

- We make sure the actual one, we don't know. (laughing) - We don't know. (laughing) - I think I'll be cuter, but yeah, I got the bowmen to that stick.

- That would be huge. What a revelation.

“- I mean, oh, that's what goes so viral.”

- Actually, well, he was in our family. - I think it's episode of all of it. - Yeah, so I grew up in that kind of house. - How old were they when they had? You're the middle.

- Oldest daughter and an oldest grandchild on both sides. So I have all that superiority complex going for me. And this enormous sense of responsibility to balance it up. So they were young, they were like 19 and 20. We're 20 and 21, like right around there.

And they got married, well they were pregnant with me. And I'm not sure how long it took for my dad to sort of succumb to pretty severe alcoholism,

or if he kind of was already always drinking.

I may actually know this, but I'm not recalling it off top of my head. But yeah, he had a really, really bad drinking problem. Most of my childhood was the employee. - He was employed initially at the Boeing. - And to coma.

- Yeah, but you got to build airplanes. You got to stay sober. - Yeah, you do. - Of all the jobs we had. - That's what we had.

- That's what we had. - That's what I was. - You know, he would go and recover and he would go to rehab. And he would get to the point where he would even be somebody else's sponsor like he'd be clean that long.

It made it that much more heartbreaking when he would fall. - And would you see the signs percolating up? Did you ever feel like you had a sense of when those times were coming? - No. And I always surprised me.

And I actually think maybe now that I'm an adult,

“that's why I never let anything surprise me ever.”

I don't even like getting a birthday present. I'm like, tell me what it is. - Yeah, we'll talk about it. - Yeah. - When he was drunk, what version of a drunk was it?

- Just unpredictable. He's really smart, hyper-articulate. Kind of a victim of an overactive mind. And I'll go ahead and say something that he used to sort of quail that. But because he's so naturally, he would not like this.

But quite dogmatic and marinating and reddit wreck all the time. His sobriety would become a family religion. So we would be an alan on alatine. We would be learning that we'd have the slogans. We had the one liners.

And then he would fall off the wagon. And it would feel like we fell off a skyscraper. - Well, yeah, your identity, all of your identity. - No whole friendship group is all members of AAM, sure. - I wish, I think that's part of the problem.

- Okay, okay. - Is that, you know, you kind of described that small town situation? No, they were not. And in my dad, he doesn't have like an ego, but he's kind of self-important in a way.

And just if what is needed in theory for an addict to stay clean is a positive friend group, he doesn't believe that applies to him. He's the one guy. - He can do it on his own.

- I'm always like, "I want to enter recovery."

They're like, "Here's six things that work for people." I'm like, "Let's see if I can do it with one." Get three months, free laps, and then come back. I'm open to doing two of the things. I literally have to get worn down over a year as before.

Okay, I'll do all the fucking things. What I have to believe in God, okay. I gotta tell you, I need a sponsor. - Well, it's still all about acceptance. Acceptance that you have a real issue.

Obviously, that cliche or that acknowledgment as the hardest hurdle or problem is real. All of that is just to get to, "Yeah, I have a real problem." - Because until then you're like,

"I have a little problem. "I can probably just do with one of these things." - There's an arrogance, like, the normal people need all this. But I'm exceptional. So what will I make me feel free of these things?"

- Yeah, if any of them, and then there's to your point. Like, if you've seen that Leonardo DiCaprio meme, I love it so much, where he's got that kind of face, and he's holding a martini or whatever. The meme is, like, how wine drunks look at regular drunks.

(audience laughs) - Oh, it's like, oh, we drink wine.

- Yeah, there's always someone worse.

There's always someone worse. And then there's that cliche of the rock bottom thing. It feels like, only time I've seen people get sober and, like, stay sober. This is just a theory from a person who's not an addict, by the way.

But is that the shit has to really hit the fan? - Oh, the same NAA is, like, you won't change until your hair is on fire. - Yeah. - And then the other great things, which describe your father for myself is, like, you can have terminal uniqueness,

which is I'm so unique, and I'm gonna die because of it. Like, I'm so special and different and unique, and I'm gonna die of that uniqueness, but I don't care. I'd rather be that unique. - Yeah, it's almost romantic.

- Yeah. - And it feels like it has autonomy, you're in control, and it's not, yeah, you're just unwilling. - He's sober now though. - He is awesome.

- Yeah. - For how long? - For a long time. - That's all he's doing. - Oh, that's awesome. - I imagine we inherited the same thing, which was just like, you know, it's kind of dory,

'cause it's this thing, my dad's super into.

“And then the spirituality, that would accompany it, right?”

It'd be like, "Course of Miracles" and all these other things that tie in with it. What kind of feelings were you having about that whole element?

- About the spiritual element?

- Yeah, A, A, and the slogans and all that stuff was like,

"Oh my God, this is embarrassing." - I was already more religious than A, when we entered into A, I was already really into Jesus.

“- And where your parents are just you, you found it on your own?”

- It's very weird, my parents were. And my dad really was at a time, you know, he's a extremist. So he had extremist moments and he's still an extremist, but I had my own path with it.

Like, I have terminally uniqueness. So I almost died when I was five from meningitis. I just got told so many times that I had like a purpose and that I was like saved for something and we were all intense and we were all going to church.

And so I was like talking in Jesus all the time, I had a whole relationship with this Jesus thing that was kind of independent. - Wow. - I would elect to go to vacation Bible school

and it wanted us and youth group and stuff like that. I didn't have groups of friends based on it either. - You weren't like idolizing some older kid that was super into it or anything? - No.

- There's just that maybe that near death experience. Your heart stopped a few times during that time. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - I was just like riding shotgun

with his Jesus character and kind of always have been

through a lot of turmoil, ups and downs in my life and even things about me that would push me away from it. Pull me back and recognize with a lot of gratitude that I have a very unique God perspective. - And you still do.

- Best of all, yeah. - Wow.

“- What age were you when baptism was supposed to happen?”

- I think like 16. - Okay, so 16 were supposed to get baptized in what happened. - There was this kind of troubling church actually in our town, big surprise. Then the neighboring town, Black Diamond.

They kind of looked for troubled kids that were in troubled home situations and stressed out. And at this point, me and my brother already dropped out of high school and we were in trouble cleaning buses

at the bus barn and this church bus pulled up and told us to get in, picked up my brother and I didn't go. - This should tell you, still have a running. - Yeah, it's all they had to tell me.

(laughing) - Still have a running in the grid. - It's good, it's good. - It's good. - Oh, okay.

(laughing) - I got in the quarry guy's truck. No, but eventually I started going to the church, found it, compelling, went to one of those camps. You know, they go to these camps.

I don't think you guys have ever experienced these church camp things? - I've not been to one, but kids went to them where I grew up. - A lot of friends. - Okay, deeply emotional and transformative for young kids.

These camps, these pastors, they're cool. They know how to talk to young people. They know how to play on our guilt and our sense of rebelliousness. And so it compelled me to want to get baptized.

I felt that there was just too much in the world that I couldn't handle without making my faith official. - Yeah, yeah. - So I did the thing that you do in the evangelical church where the pastor like prays for everybody to close their eyes

and then somebody comes forward and I came forward. So I was gonna get baptized and everybody's crying and clapping and it's all very charismatic and you spend like a week taking classes and doing Bible study and spending time with the pastor

and everything and I had done it. I did all those things and when the day came around for my baptism at the church, the whole town which is like not many people and my parents troubled as it all was.

We were a unit. We were together. We were all a big dysfunctional family. I was out of the closet. I had a girlfriend in short of haircut.

- Can we do one second on that? Being openly gay where I'm from in a rural area in the '80s, it would have been really, was it different in Washington? - No, I was the only one I knew.

- Yeah, where did you get the confidence to own that and not run from that at all? - It's a really good question. It's just for me.

It's just always been such an obvious part of who I am

when I saw other gay people on TV, like Ellen DeGeneres coming out in the '90s when I saw gay artists like The Endigo Girls and I was a huge, Elton John fan and I read all these biographies

and then there were movies that kind of touched on it boys on the side and Philadelphia. I recognized there was a community or a culture outside of my life. - That makes sense, your heroes were all in gay. - Yeah, and all my friends were going through puberty

and they wanted to make out with boys and I wanted to make out with girls. - Yeah, yeah. - I just didn't want to make out with them. I couldn't deny that, but people do,

but they do all the time, so it's amazing.

“- I think when they're not in cities as well,”

they tend to even more like, yeah. - I just have always been pretty oblivious to just not being cool. You know, my favorite pants growing up were like, calprint jeans, I didn't know

that people were laughing at my obsessions or my eccentricities and so I was like, yeah, I'm gay. Everybody knows I'm gay. They're not that into it. It's not a popular thing.

I'm not taking a whole lot of shit for it, but I'm not being accepted either. And again, kind of oblivious to that. Just listening to The Endigo Girls, loving my life. - They probably don't mind that you're gay.

Their nervous is every girl gonna turn gay now in the school. - I don't think I'm that kind of idiot. - I think that's what I'm gonna do. - I think that's what I'm gonna do.

- My school that would have been awesome.

- You're like, I was trying.

- Like when I talk to friends of mine who I adore that live in the south, the way they'll tell me that like Disney's goal is to convince all kids to be trans. I'm like, I think you think that. Like I do think you think that.

“- Yeah, I think I think that's a real thought.”

- Yeah. - And I think similarly, like, I think a lot of people back then were just like, yeah, I don't care what she does, but she can influence my daughter. - Yeah, since I do have a bad influence.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah. - There may have been some of that. I mean, I remember hearing a lot of words like that thrown around town or my family or in the 90s, like, oh, she's militant, or she's hard,

or are you gonna put it in our faces? - Yeah. - He's kind of, or like love the center-hate the sin. We love you, but we don't accept your lifestyle, I think. - Right, right, right, right.

- And that, unfortunately, just had to be good enough

for me back then, and I was absolutely fine with that. - Yeah, you weren't sweating that too much. - I mean, I wasn't. I know it was a countercultural thing. - In your parents, they're cool, obviously.

- No. - Okay. - We're only in the same situation. - They weren't cool, but they weren't not cool. It was something everybody found kind of quite annoying about me, if I'm right, but I have an inner world,

and I also knew, I can't explain why, but I knew I had this life ahead of me that I was about to be a part of, and that I was gonna be okay, but I get to this church for this baptism after spending this time with the pastor.

Having this kind of position in my community that was complicated, I was loved but not accepted and just everything was like, okay, but not great. So I get to this church and the pastor takes me aside with this other kid that was gonna get like a much younger kid

and asks us both, because of formality,

do you practice witchcraft or homosexuality?

And I just laughed. I just burst out laughing because I didn't understand why that question was pertinent and I still don't. But that question seemed so ridiculous to me, and then it didn't hit me long to realize

that I had to answer yes to one of those times. - Right, do you think you threw witchcraft in to make it seem less pointed? Or do you think that's standard? - They think that's equal, those are the same.

- It's just curious if you, 'cause he's been a week with you, he probably liked you. - We liked me, and you knew me and knew my face. - And he's about to put you in a situation where he's gonna deny you a baptism.

I mean, I imagine he's human, so did he just throw, when you grabbed him to try to make a day, I gotta ask these standard questions in.

“- I do, and I think he's like this very moment,”

I just accepted it as such. - It just seems like a thing. How would you find yourself all the way to this point of believing in witchcraft? - Yeah, I have a great idea.

I'm gonna ask her about witchcraft, and then the homosexuality thing won't go away. - There's a pro way. - Yeah. - Maybe the other kid was a warlord.

- No, right. - Yeah, maybe the kid's the boy was a warlord. - He's gonna be a warlord. - Yeah, he very well could have been. He's standing there with his staff.

But I stopped laughing, I looked into my go, you know me, I know you know I'm gay. Everyone knows I'm gay, it's I'm the gay person. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - You know, that didn't seem like that was a disqualifying factor,

and I'm in a swimsuit, and my parents are right there. What are you talking about? - Yeah, yeah. - And he was like, you can't be baptized today, and I had to leave the church in front of all of those people

sitting there, run back to my house. - How did you take that were you? Heartbroken by that, are were you angered by it? - At that point, just humiliated. - Yeah, so embarrassed, which is my nightmare.

I cannot be embarrassed. It was about the most embarrassed I've ever been in my life to this day, and my parents came home, and a couple of their close friends, like Ron and Diane, like they all came to the house, and it was suddenly,

I was loved and accepted. It was just weird thing that happened where, then Pastor Dude was the problem, and the whole town got mad on my behalf. - Well, that's beautiful.

- That might be scarier for me, though. I don't know if I want the whole town to hate me or love me. I'm afraid of both. - I can see why, because they might know what you're doing. (laughing)

- I just be like, oh, I can't live up to love. I can live up to disappointing you, but living up to love, that's the whole trajectory of this experience of even getting famous. That's still an issue.

I'm afraid for you to love me, because I'm gonna disappoint you.

“- I think more than ever, that is a valid stressor.”

I can see why you feel that way, even without the issues. - Yeah, I already had those, and then there's some proof now. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - Yeah, absolutely. That turned that around for me in a really interesting way.

- So did they can the pastor? They said, like, you got to go to program and baptize. - No, that pastor called me every day for a long time trying to apologize. I just, I think it was just upsetting for everyone.

You know, religion and dogma, it's so oppressive. - So did you just lose your desire to even get baptized at that point? Like, fuck that. I have my relationship with Jesus, and I'm good.

- Yeah, until much, much later in life. It set me free in a way, I think. Made a lot of people that thought that gay people were militant and insisting on these rights that they're gonna take from them realized, we really are kind of in trouble out here.

We really are vulnerable in a lot of different ways.

I don't think they're realized. - Yeah, you were just like excommunicated from your church. - In front of them all. - Yeah.

“- Well, that's a lovely end-loaded terrible story that I think.”

So that's why I look at it. It's something about it is the best part of us as humans, which is like, we don't enjoy seeing someone get shit on or excluded. - Almost no matter what.

- Yeah, and it can change us on a dime in a profound way. More than had you bitched out the guy in front of everyone. - And won. - And won. - Yeah, I know exactly what you mean.

Did I read correctly that you wouldn't get married until LGBT views could? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - I've had a lot of gay friends and my analogy was, and this is a crazy analogy, but it feels very appropriate.

- If half my friends were black and I lived in the 30s, I wouldn't host a party in the front of the bus. - Yeah, yeah. - It would feel insane. And I was like, well, we're gonna invite like,

eight of our gay friends, so I'll just have this right. They don't have and celebrate us, feels bonkers. - Wow. - Just on that alone, not like a big global, just like this is wrong for me to do this

and invite friends that can't do it to enjoy it for me. It feels crazy. - It's pretty good. It's pretty great. - But then we were stuck in engagement.

- Sure, sure. - I wanted to say three years. To the point where people would be like,

“you're still engaged like they're getting nervous for us, right?”

Like you can only be engaged for so long. - Yeah, this is a bad sign. - This is bad sign. - And it's like, oh, this is convenient. You have a cause now.

(laughing) - I don't know what it's like. - Always the guy's idea. (laughing) - You should go to the festival.

You definitely should go to the festival. - I really do like it. - But also, that's actually amazing.

That's gonna always be a part of your legacy

and being able to get married changed my life. And when I couldn't get married, it was a major drain on my life. - Yeah. - Can we talk about that a little bit?

Because I do think we have a friend group and there's something adjacent happening where there's some religious people who are like, well, no, you can be together but like marriage is a different thing.

What can you share about why? That's not okay. - About why it's not okay to deny that basis. - Yes. - So we're right, well,

I just don't think that any one religion has them an option to people choosing to spend the rest of their lives together under equal protection of the law. And guess what?

Some of us are quite religious. It was kind of wild actually because my weddings, we had a lot of weddings. My wife is from London. So we got married in a little church,

called the church of the Good Shepherd and where a message was. - And her last name is Shepherd, yeah. - Shepherd, yeah. - Yeah, yeah, that's great.

- And then we had a civil partnership in England because they didn't have marriage. There yet it was just a civil partnership. So it was kind of weird

because we never had a civil partnership here.

We had marriage first. And then England for years had civil partnerships and then marriage quite a lot later. So we had a civil partnership there and the deal was you couldn't have any mention

of faith, religious music. I don't even think you could wear like a cross, like you had to have a totally secular interest thing. Which was an interesting thing because it gave me this perspective of understanding

how it can really be viewed through a religious lens. But really, that's all in the eye of the beholder. That's all in how you feel about it. - Also it just really speaks to like little groups of humans do little weird things

and they have little weird rules that they're separate from this group. So it's like this one has to be secular. It doesn't make much sense. This one can't have that, doesn't make much sense.

- That makes sense, yeah. - They overlap in these little segments of life and you're gonna deal with a civil union and that thing at the same time.

“- I think just normal people out like live in their lives”

and stuff just didn't realize how many things it excluded us from. We had all kinds of issues. - You couldn't visit her in the hospital, right? Like that would be one in a lot of cases.

- That was a really heartbreaking one and happened to a lot of older couples or just homeownership like going back to somebody's family instead of their long-term spouse. - Yeah.

- Things like that. But then immigration as well. We couldn't get a green card or vouch for cats. Citizenship or anything like that. There was no spousal allocation for me to be able to do that.

So we had to renew our visa every couple of years and panic every time we traveled internationally. - Get detained at the airport. - It was detained at the airport. - Oh.

- And when that changed, it was just immediate. I was like, oh my gosh, this is what everybody else. You just get to walk up to the counter and say we're married. Everywhere? - I don't even think about it.

I don't think I've gotten some right, which I have. - That's the problem when people are against it. They don't recognize the benefits of it that they're just inherently getting. - That's a good point.

- He likes to dare us. David's to dare us the writer. - I don't know him. - Oh man, he's so scared. - Well, you're a congratulation.

He just got introduced to the greatest living writer.

- Okay, that's incredible.

- He's hysterical. But anyways, I was just reading a short story two nights ago and it was about when it got passed. He has a varying entrance. He's older, he's 60, probably four now.

And he has opinions that are of his era

In a fun way.

And he's very open about them.

“He was in England and he collects trash in the morning”

at their house in England that's like his routine. And he brought with him his eye peg because he knew that the Supreme Court announcement was gonna happen. And then he lost signal for three hours

and then he got to a cafe and he opened it up and he saw it. And he said, I don't think any gay human being in America could have not read that and just felt emotion. - Yeah. - But then his old process is like him going home

to his partner of 20 years in telling Hugh that they gotta get married 'cause there's a great tax benefit. And he was like, I'm not getting married. That's for a fucking straight people.

I don't give a fuck about the tax benefit. - That's a whole question. - That's a whole question.

- Oh, mom, to finally get him because he,

and he said, the actual proposal is like him rolling out the tax benefit, bludgeoning him and then he was saying, fine, if it'll make you shut up, I'll do it. - That's married. - That's hot.

(laughing) - Well, I keep using him going like what? That's the way the proposal I have managed. - Yeah. - Here we are.

- Yeah. - And like, does it want to be called husband? You know, like, does that as a whole rejection? - That's a whole thing. How old are they?

- Like, 64. - Yeah, I get it. I respect that. - Yeah. - He hates the word queer.

“You know, like, he's got a lot of things.”

- Yeah, he knows those things. - Yeah, and he's fun to talk to, and he's earned every single man he has. - Oh, I love those folks. - Yeah, those are my, well, ancestors in a way,

like those are my elders, man. I've got so much respect for the older guys. - Yeah. - Yeah, he grew up in a time where he had to leave North Carolina, I'm in New York City.

This is only a shot. - Had to add to his own lines. - And he's almost unsympathetic when he has people asking questions like, what should I do? I'm in this town.

He's like, "Fucking move." - Oh, yeah. - He's like, they're crazy. - They're crazy. Those old men, they're so crazy, they're so crazy.

It's brutal. - Yeah. - I guess I don't even know what AIDS is. - Yeah, yeah. - Yeah, yeah, yeah.

- Exactly. - Yeah, they're pissed. - Yeah, yeah. - In some ways, like, they have a right way. - He's like, "Well, that's a problem."

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(upbeat music) Okay, so mom was she the breadwinner. I imagine you guys were probably scraping by if they were super young dad had his problem and mom, what did she do?

Mom was a stay at home, mom. How did this work? There wasn't a lot of bread. (laughing) We didn't see anything.

My dad, when he couldn't be a Boeing anymore, he learned how to do some construction and a guy helped out our family help. My dad gets some tools. My dad's actually really good at construction.

And he still comes out and does stuff. My house all the time and stuff. And just within that gig, you just get jobs when you can get them and when you don't have them, you don't have money and that's just how you roll.

So we moved a lot. Yeah, I noticed maybe seven places I read or something in some period of time. Me and my brother just got an argument about this last night. He didn't believe me, but it's 14 places in 17 years.

There we go. But it didn't seem that strange at all at the time. There were consistent things. You know, like I had the same cat that we took to every place that we moved to.

I shared room with my little sister and really tied with my brother and sister. And I'm really tied with my parents. We're just a chaotic unit of dysfunction that just deeply loves each other.

We sometimes disagree about history and how it played out. And what we're allowed to talk about what we aren't,

“but I do believe that my life is my story.”

And we'll just talk at three.

We'll continue to talk at three like we always have.

Yeah, did you covet money or was the town so small that even though you were broke was everyone broke? Or did you covet money and think how the fuck am I going to get? I got to get money. Oh yeah, I thought about money a lot.

Yeah, I still do. I'm a coyote. I'm a coyote. Yeah, coyote people. Yeah, what do you owe coyote people as what we're called?

Yeah, I'll tell you more. Like a coyote, it cannot help but exist for me. Uh-huh. And like I'm a coyote for achievement. I'm a coyote for success.

I'm a coyote for stability and money. And I do my best. I've got all kinds of philosophies around not hoarding money and things like that because I know where the addiction lies. But I used to lay in my bed and dream about all the things

I could buy. Everybody if I got money and they were dumb things. Like four wheelers. Sure, no. Yeah.

Like downriggers and crap like that.

Once I very first started making money, I did crazy stuff

with it. I took out loans.

Like I would finance four wheelers and get like my dad and brother

or really just new money stuff. Yeah. They're one of your family members and four wheelers. I have a lot of free one. I'm a four wheeler problem.

“But you started singing with Mom at eight years old?”

Yeah. So Mom was a singer, I presume. Yeah, my mom's a really good country singer. To this day, she can still sing really good like Tammy Wynett. Her dad died of ALS really young.

He died at like 50 and that was tough for my mom because she was really young. I needed a dad. Yep. And he was special. So he was going to be a pretty important patriarchal figure

in our family that we all could have really used. And so he left us and one thing he did was sing country music and play the spoons and sing in a country band with his family. Was he from Washington? He was from Minnesota.

Does it make much more sense? I was hoping from the South. No, but you get count out the North. Yeah. Or the West.

That's where you call it country and Western work. Oh, you're right. We did not belong to the South. That's true. And so she in a way was able to continue that legacy pass on on to me and my brother and

my sister. And we all do music now. And what was she singing with that she got to get you up on stage to sing with her? There was like a little community theater in town called the Northwest Randall Opera.

“But I dream about all the time, actually.”

We were acting out the Randall Opera. Yeah. Like an announcer. There was like a little Jimmy Dick. It's many pearl thing happening.

Oh, that's great. Yeah. And so she would mostly sing with us.

But even though she's a good singer, I always got the idea that it was really more

about us than her at a certain point. And she thought it was really cool. The her kids could sing. Yeah. Yeah.

Of course. You have kids. Yeah, I got kids. Yeah, they do shit. You're like, oh my god.

They do shit. And you're like, oh my god. I picked a song to play for you later. Oh, I can't wait. Based on this because of the ages.

Tell me now. How old? 11 and 13. And you're 8 and 12. 8 and 11.

Almost 12. Okay. So similar. Both girls. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Years are both girls. Mine are both girls. Wow.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Okay. You start singing now without mom by what age. Fifteenish. Yeah. Me and my best friend Amber.

We started singing background vocals for her dad who was an Elvis impersonator. And then we would do a song or two. And the set by ourselves. And then we learned a couple of him to go girls songs and sort of trying to teach her harmony, which my brother had taught me.

And I was singing in another band with my brother. And things just kind of turned into me being a multiple bands and having a lot going on. You got obsessed with old John, tell yourself piano, tell yourself guitar. Guitar when I was around 17, 16, 17. Okay.

“And when do you move in this Seattle and meet Tim and Phil?”

I never moved to Seattle back to this day.

I live where I grew up. I did meet them in a studio when I was about 18, 19. I got some money together from neighbors, coyote, out there doing the coyote sings. I'm sure. Got some money together to go make a CD and ended up in a there's a recording studio.

They're called London Bridge and a guy called Rick Prasher. And this recording studio is very special. This is where Pearl Jam 10 was done and template the dog. Old Alice and chain stuff with Kelly Gray and Rick Prasher was involved in all that. He was the producer of those things.

So this felt to me like the center of Seattle Grunge. But I couldn't afford like the big studio or the big producers. So like an assistant engineer. Let me record with him upstairs and like a little. Kind of satellite room.

And it wasn't even really it was just a room. But Pro Tools was just coming out. So you could do that without a big console. And Tim and Phil were in downstairs working with the big producer in the big room. In their own band called The Fighting Machineists.

They were like legends in Seattle. They had just gotten the biggest record deal anybody in Seattle ever gotten. And then they were going to be huge and I just walked down there. And again, totally oblivious to what I looked like and where I came from. And just was like you guys like cow pants.

My sister. What do you think? Enjoy. Leave this all behind me. Put on your bib and pull.

Let's go. I get the beauty of moving a lot. You just have to like put yourself out there. You have to talk to people. You can't really be shy.

You don't have time. If you're sitting in home, no one's ever going to knock at your door. Go ahead. Do you want this spectacular life? No one ever is.

And you realize you've got to make opportunities every chance you get. And I was working as a barista at a coffee stand. So I got a lot of social skills that way. I was working at a grocery store as a sample lady. Oh, a sample lady.

What was your sample? Oh, every day it was different. It was awesome job actually. And then I was working part time as a roofing laborer. Oh, I also was a roofer.

Really. Yeah. Why are we the same person?

Yeah.

“I think my back is throwing a tear off or tear off and clean up.”

It's sometimes I would throw down the tar paper if it was not slated roof.

Never got to throw any bundles on me.

They've never got to throw any bundles on me. They've never got to throw any bundles on me. They've never got to throw any bundles on me. They've never got to throw any bundles on me. They've never got to throw any bundles on me.

They've never got to throw any bundles on me. They've never got to throw any bundles on me. They've never got to throw any bundles on me. They've never got to throw any bundles on me.

They've never got to throw any bundles on me.

They've never got to throw any bundles on me. They've never got to throw any bundles on me.

“They've never got to throw any bundles on me.”

They've never got to throw any bundles on me.

They've never got to throw any bundles on me. They've never got to throw any bundles on me.

“They've never got to throw any bundles on me.”

They've never got to throw any bundles on me. They've never got to throw any bundles on me.

They've never got to throw any bundles on me.

They've never got to throw any bundles on me. They've never got to throw any bundles on me. They've never got to throw any bundles on me. They've never got to throw any bundles on me. Of all the people I know who are successful in working, I don't think any of them went to Harvard.

None of them did the right thing. I barely graduated high school. I don't think it's that big of a deal.

“I think if you want it, you're going to get it.”

And if you don't want it, you're not going to get it anyways. I can send you any school that'll take you. It's not going to give you that. I hate to say that I feel that way, but I kind of do. I mean, I worked out.

If my girls came to me and said we don't want to go to a conventional high school, I have the time and the means to help them with an alternative path. My parents, they both brought out of high school. No one in our family graduated. Not my brother, not my sister, not me, not my folks.

Wow, your kids could be the first. So my kids could be the first. They will do it maybe a different way though. I don't see my kids going to a conventional high school in doing that. I don't understand how to speak that language.

So I think there will be alternative forms of their exit from their education. But suffice to say by 2005, you record Brandi Carlisle. That's the first album. So you would have been 24. When it came out, yeah, I recorded it in maybe 2002, 2003.

So pretty young, 24. And that works. Like Rolling Stone reviews it beautifully. They put you on the top 10 artists to watch in 2005. After all that grind, did you have a hard time trusting the positive things that were coming?

No. I just loved it. I was so happy. Honestly, I was happy before.

I've always felt like a famous singer.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, he's felt like that. So no. You're like, oh, the world caught up. Yeah, I'm more gunshot now than I was back then.

Tell me, what do you think has caused that? I don't know. Maybe just getting older. Being middle-aged, wondering about relevance. The internet, the way people talk about each other.

How easy it is to surmise that someone is something that they're not. And those kinds of things should make me question whether this is the gig for me. It's weird though, isn't it? It's like counter to what you would think. If you could ask me at like 15, let's see, you did all this stuff.

What would you feel like at the end of it? I feel so confident. But yeah, I was in this movie that people give me a lot of compliments for Idiocracy. And I played a role that I know I wanted to do today.

Like it would be too big of a swing. I would be afraid to go try to do what I did. What I did in that movie. You're saying that you would do it today. You offered me that role today.

I would be like, I can't do it. Yeah, I would be scared. But is it that what we're saying? There's like that's what so weird. Well, that's the thing about theocracy too.

Yeah, I could see why. Yeah, I could see why. Yeah, just it was a huge swing. Yeah. And it reminded all to hit our third game.

It was our third game. And I didn't give a fuck if anyone thought it was embarrassing or not. Right, right, right. And now I would be harder for me to do it. Now, and that's opposite of what I would have expected.

“Is it because we don't want to be embarrassed for our kids?”

Is it because we're like becoming legacy conscious as we get older? I mean, I think those are really good guesses. And for probably a lot of people that stuff is going on. I don't think I'm concerned about legacy. I think what it is is in some weird way.

I was an accumulated by ignorance and naive a day. And didn't even consider what if I look ridiculous doing it? What if this is embarrassing?

Those thoughts never crossed my mind.

Wow. And now they would. Yeah, that sucks. We only get that. I think for I'm not as good as I thought I was.

That's part of it, right? Like, I used to think I was so good. Now I think I'm fine. You know, somewhere to raise a more confident, but also it's like I tapped on the bottom and the top. What has changed that?

Do you think you've let some of the outside in a little bit? Yeah, or I've seen stuff I did that I thought was one thing. And then upon reflection or years away. I'm like, oh, wasn't as good as I thought it was. So I wasn't as good in it.

I've more come to the feeling like, yeah, I'm fine. I can do this job. I'm not, I'm going to be Will Ferrell at that point. I was like, I'm going to be Will Ferrell. No, you have stuff to lose now.

That's really what it is. You get to an age where you have stuff to lose. When you're starting out, there's nothing to lose.

“You're able to put yourself out there because it's like, well, what's the worst I can have it?”

Yeah, I didn't have a mortgage when I did that. Exactly. And you have a reputation. You have children. There's a ton of lose, actually.

Exactly. And you're a little bit dumb. The beauty of not having a little bit. A little bit. Yeah, actually, it helps you. I put out album after album after album without ever even knowing when the Grammys were.

And now, I'm thinking about the Grammys before I write the song. I don't want it to be that way and I push it out. I do it. I get rid of it and I do the thing and I go in. But to not know the things I know.

I made an album with Elton John. Elton's incredibly encyclopedic about numbers and the charts and how things do and shows everything. And I knew nothing. He would call me and say, hey, the record is coming out at this or it got this or this thing is going to happen.

I'd be like, oh, my god, tell me about that.

Like, what is that? Yeah. Once you learn too much about how you're being received, it can definitely go in.

“But I think there's ways we can erase it.”

I don't know how, but I think there are ways we can get rid of the knowledge. Well, because we have examples of people who have avoided that.

So minimally, there are mentors that exist that seem to have never succumbed to that pressure.

But yes, if you've never been nominated for a Grammy, who cares? Once you get nominated for one, now we know you can do it. It's yours to not do. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's what it fucks you up, I think.

You're not doing it. In the climb, we talked about this all the time. It's counterintuitive, but it's so much scarier once you're at the top of the mountain. Climbing the mountain is hard. And when you're in it, you're like, oh, I want to do his B-up there, but then when you're up,

there's just one way to go. It's way to get up there. There you go. Yeah. And you're more self-conscious because of it.

You're right. Yeah, and they say, what's that mildly, really? There's always going to be another mountain. Yeah, yeah. I need another mountain.

I need another mountain. I need another mountain. I need another mountain. That's my addiction there. Yeah.

Okay. In '07, the story comes out. How did you end up working with T-bone Burnett? And as he is magical, I'm led to believe from film and television. He seems very special.

Yeah, he is very special. When I started recording our songs, me and the twin songs, we had like 40 Sumpen songs, 42 songs, maybe. Over the course of doing these residences together and working together and practicing.

And who we met first was Rick Rubin.

Oh, wow. Okay. And Rick Rubin tried to sign us to American recordings. But there was a lot going on. The Johnny Cash stuff had just come out and he was moving a bunch of record label stuff.

Didn't work out. But what he told me was, these are your good songs. And these are your not so good songs. He divided them in half. And he goes, this is a really great record.

“This is something you can record if you need to make money and find a way to get yourself”

through the next couple of years until I get settled in at my new record label. Did you agree with that assessment? Yeah. Then I was really open to suggestion at that point from him. So I divided those things in half.

And I went in and recorded what became Brandy Carlisle. As my own collection, basically of demos for me to sell at my shows. And then later on, I got the record deal in 2005. And they said, well, okay, we know your good record is the story. This help.

You have to go all the way to come out. Let's put this other one out in the meantime while you kind of get your chops and get out on the road and get good. So we did. And that became Brandy Carlisle. That was my not good songs.

Oh, wow. And you two are for two years on that, right? Tored for like several years on that.

And then it never really worked out with Rick Ruben.

And I met Debom Bernette in a hotel bar in New York City. And we got to talking about country music. We hit it off. And we agreed that we were going to leave the country and make a record together in some other country. That record was the story.

And the whole thing has recorded live in one room with one band to tape. 11 days or something. Yeah, you can't get tape on Bernette stay longer than that. Yeah, you lose quit. It was quit.

What was going on with tape on the live was a departure from what was being done normally, right? It was, but it was a recent departure because like I was saying, Pro Tools was only kind of new. And there were certain editing techniques that are second nature today that you hear all the time without realizing you're hearing them. That we didn't really have refined or have a lot of access to back in that exact moment.

You couldn't have used auto tune or maladine and not heard. You hear it. You know, wasn't as finest as it is now. Compression to everything was in a time when you're hearing like really unaltered human voice and not a lot. Your voice cracks on one of the tracks, right?

Yeah, on the story in a significant way. And a lot of times I'm playing guitar and singing at the same time and those things can't be separated in those recordings. And so we recorded to tape, which is another whole other cumbersome but beautiful sounding way to record. And to add it on it is so much more time consuming. Yeah, they actually splice it and cut it.

“So you have to make big decisions about accepting imperfection.”

Yes, so how about that moment with the voice? Were you first heard, we like, we can't have that or we like, oh fuck, this somehow is a magic to it. It felt and sounded so wild to me when I made that sound that I almost laughed and just ended the tape. Right, everyone. Yeah.

But I knew that everybody was playing so good and I didn't want to throw it for the drummer. And so I just sang through it, thinking, well, if they love the first half, they can splice a second half on from another one. When I ended the song, Teemo Manet comes running through and you know, he doesn't run. Yeah.

But he comes up and he throws the door open on my isopot. And he goes, that was the moment of the record. That was the moment of the record. Oh, wow. And I go, what are you talking about?

He goes, wait till you hear it. Wow. How powerful. Yeah. That's cool.

That is so cool. So that album, the story really changes kind of everything, yeah? No, at the time, it really didn't. I think it didn't break the top anything.

Well, you get songs on Grey's Anatomy.

They started happening. Yeah. Grey's Anatomy started showing up really, really like during the Brandy Carlow thing. And this sort of relationship happened with them where they found that my music was going well with their programming. Yeah.

I even recorded a couple of songs just for them. Wow. Yeah. And one season they had three years songs. And then their musical episode, they sang one of your songs.

Yeah. The story. It helped everything. It helped pay the bills. It helped our band and what an iconic show.

Oh, my God. I was obsessed with it. And specifically the music. Just picking out every song. They were like, morning becomes a clock.

They were like a gateway. It's a great music. It's exactly like garden state. Yeah. There was this kind of really cool thing that happened around sync licensing at that time.

And I just happened to be a part of it, I still feel the ripple effect of that. And I love that show. It's a great show.

“What's the news where you're playing on that two years of touring with Brandy Carlow?”

Theators? To turn bars? Well, if I got to open for somebody theaters. But a lot of bars and clubs and just kind of standing rooms and stuff like that. You loved it.

So all kinds of fun stuff I bet. So all kinds of fun stuff.

I never got on a plane until I was 17 years old.

So I saw the whole country with these two twins in my own van. We should take our kids some more bars. That actually teaches how to get by in a bar. Yeah. If you can survive there.

Let me test for the whole world. Yeah. Every weekend with my father is from the entire day at the dirty duck salute. Like eight a.m. Two of them were dirty duck.

That was his spot. Tell me you met Doug. The duck. Oh, Doug. I got enough of Doug.

I got enough of Doug. I got enough of Doug. I got enough of Doug. I got enough of Doug. I got enough of Doug.

I got enough of Doug. I got enough of Doug. I got enough of Doug. I got enough of Doug. Okay.

And finally got to work with Rick Ruben. How was that? That could go either way. If you met you years before and saved this. And these are great.

This could go either way. I found it tense. I'm intimidated by him a bit. We interviewed him. And I was like, he's got some mojo.

But the mojo for me is intimidating. I think I found it like that. If I had to really unpack it on the spot. I would say that him being the deciding force between whether something was great or not great really rub me the wrong way.

Yeah. He actually used the word great all the time. And I felt that that word was subjective. I was young enough to wear the punk rock. Artists in me needed that word to be subjective.

And I needed to be the determining factor. Because I was making them whether it was great or not great. Yeah.

“And I think if he were sent in here today.”

You would probably giggle and tell you that that's probably what he doesn't like about working with young artists is that they have to be the determining factor of great or not great. At the same time, I wouldn't take that from myself. For anything.

So we butted heads. Yeah. Really bad. And then later on in life came back together and now are very good friends. Oh, that's funny.

But I still think he's complicated man and tough to work with on that level. Yeah. I only hung around there for a minute when the avids were recording there because I'm friends with Seth. Oh, cool.

I'm really good friends with those guys too. Yeah, I noticed you guys were played together. But if I had to really isolate like what insecurity in me is triggered by him. There's something almost religious about him.

And I'm like, oh, I'll never grasp his thing that he's got in there for he doesn't value me.

You know, whatever. He's got some toe hold on something. I don't even believe in. And so there's a cast in between us. And he'll never think I'm special.

And I'll never think he understands me. I don't know. Well, that's the same thing. His like serenity and his knowledge of what's great and not great is almost religious. It's like an aggressive serenity.

Dude, dude. That's it. Look, it's sad. It is. Yeah.

It's an aggressive serenity. Yeah. Yeah. He just doesn't even know himself. I don't think the dude's a genius.

Let me be clear as day. I think the dude's a genius. Yeah. He knows himself very well in the middle of our interview. He was like, it's cold in here.

We need to turn down the. He didn't say can we. He was like, varies. But we were like, oh, okay. Yeah.

And then it like really rattled us for the next. Like, however, many minutes have been ever happened. It never happened. He like really just knows what he wants. He says it.

He's not scared of you. Not a people, please.

“No, like, what we would say is, hey, are you guys cold?”

Exactly. You know, I mean, we would like, we would ask for the peanut gallery to like chime in and make group decision. Well, there's merits both. I have to.

I have to admit that the first thing I said when I walked in here,

I was going to be turned there. I was like, oh, okay, yeah, yeah, totally different thing. It's totally past some of it on the made. You know, it's a legit thing to say. It's just the manner when she rolled it out was unlike any version I had ever heard someone advocate for themselves.

One time, I went up to again. This is the other thing is when we were making that second record. He didn't come to the studio, not one time. And I live in Seattle. And I had to live in LA to make this record.

So I could be near him. But then I would have to take the record, which we recorded on to take up to his house once a week.

Sit there and play for him.

And then he would make suggestions.

“And so at one point he asked for me to double a guitar solo in length.”

That sounds challenging. In this song. Impossible. No, I said, oh, well, we're cutting the tape. We can't do that.

And he goes, I'm sure you'll find a way to make it happen. Yeah, did you? Oh, okay. Okay. But it was like that.

Aggressive. Serenity was such a sister. Anyway, I don't think it's that way anymore. In fact, I worked with him recently on something. And yeah, he was very direct.

But I enjoyed it. Yeah, it's cool. Something about him triggers some insecurity in me. The dude's fine and he's a genius. And he knows it.

Yeah. And maybe jealous of that. Yeah, maybe. If you ask him because he doesn't play an instrument or know how to run any of the equipment. Yeah.

What, if Ralph calls him as being the guru. That he is. And he just says very confidently in my taste. I got to respect it. Yeah.

I do. And the result. Yeah. He hasn't. Yeah.

Yeah. Stay tuned for more armchair experts. If you dare. 2014, you sing the National Anthem out of Seahawks game. You've performed at this point a thousand times in front of people.

Oh, yeah. In my mind, I'm like already Celine Dion. Yeah. But do you get nervous when you go perform there? For some reason, though.

Good. I like that. And I actually sang the National Anthem a lot in the early part of my career. For a different sporting things in Seattle. I sort of had like a program.

I knew a key. Like I had a key that I do it in. And I knew a way to keep the key in my head. I didn't lose it when I got out there. I knew how to manage the lay in the stadium.

I knew how to use that song as like a wrestling move. It's a complicated song, no. Like there's something about it. You can get away from you. That song really easy, right?

People start too high and they got nowhere to go. They've been in the fear in their eyes. They just like leave their eyes out of active. Don't even listen to where they started. Just look at their eyes.

Oh, God. Oh, my God. Okay. So let's go to the Fire Watchers daughter 2015.

This is the first Grammy nomination you get.

Yeah. So you've been at it. Now for 10 years.

“What do you think you picked up between Brandy Carlisle the first album and the Fire Watchers daughter?”

Do you think it's all the same? They just slept on you before. Or do you think you've learned something at some point that made that a logical conclusion? Lots and lots of live experience. Lots and lots of road time and people skills.

Understanding how to interact with people but hold on to myself. A lot of production. Know how. Because I had worked with T-Bombernet and Rick Ruben on two separate things. And then also all these anti-lared producers like I had gone in with John Goodmanson and Tony Berg.

And I done a lot of projects with other really big producers. And me and twins we came from big producer Rick Prasher. So I had like a lot of production ideas and a lot of beliefs about leadership. And when we went in and made Fire Watchers daughter it was for better or worse. Self produced with a really powerful and amazing engineer culture and a shoemaker who was really

co-producing when I looked back on it. And so I felt that we were like almost an indie band. We were living like an indie band and operating like an indie band. And just fine with it doing really, really well and believing we were doing really well. So when you got that nomination were you shocked or did you feel that coming?

Oh, shocked. Nobody had ever even talked to you about the Grammys. It was like a TV show that my mom would let me stay up late for because Whitney is going to hit that note line. Yeah. And so basically I was on air plan and I got a text message from ATO, the like indie label.

We were on the Times guy. Johnny texted me and he said congratulations on your Grammy nomination. I was on the label with Brittany Howard.

And I knew she was always getting the stuff.

So I thought, oh, this is Brandy. I said to him. It's been a mix. I was speechless. I had no idea even when they were when the nominations were coming out.

No. Didn't mean to insinuate your role. No. Little baby. Yeah.

Yeah. No, I'm just thinking about it because the Grammys have made me cry a couple of times. But at this point I didn't cry it. But I was just like, oh, that's a level of making it. Yeah.

I hadn't even considered. Yeah. Yeah. You know, some are bigger than you dreamed. Yeah.

So I went. It was awesome. Well, you've been back a bazillion times. It's wondering after you've already had them. This is a reaction turned to more like relief.

I think it does. It does because the team works so hard for it. You so want to be able to bring that home for everybody else. And then there becomes an expectation.

“And you know, if you don't get it, does that mean that something's over?”

Like when the album was involved in this last one for Elton,

I've never wanted acknowledgement more in my life than I did for Elton.

Like he hasn't had enough acknowledgement.

On his behalf, you very much wanted that.

I couldn't sleep for like two days. Yeah. Yeah. And then we woke up and we had it. And it was like, Oh, we didn't win.

And you got how many of her academy award from that song, too. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And you want two lambies.

Yeah. You're on a way to an E-guide. I see this coming. Do you? Yeah.

Yeah. What's the other song? A tonie.

“You need to get forgot to only figure that out.”

I have an idea for it. Oh, God. Oh, God. Yeah. The other fun thing you've done other than great nine albums that are all great.

And won 11 Grammys and two Emmys and can we award nomination. You've also got this side career as someone who has been obsessed with people and you get to work with these people. I think this is the zone of your life. I'd be most envious of more than the other stuff to have people you love for an eternity. And then to get to enter their orbit and then even get to work together.

So is Tania the first person or is Joni?

Is this start where you become this collaborator of people who have been humongous? Where did it start? Because you have Tania Tucker. You have Joni Mitchell and you have Elton John. You've spent years with these people.

It started in some of the places that you don't read about and that you can't imagine. Because I am a fan. Like I am a way outside your tour bus for an autograph fan. I'm that kind of girl. And so a lot of these folks that I followed around when I was young and went to all of their shows.

And bought every single thing they did. And worked to get closer to before I had this job. I got to work with them early on. Like the Indigo girls and listen to Williams and Mary shape and carpenter and Kim Richie. And so I think my favorite most iconic Bonnie Ray.

And then it starts to get bigger and the artists are like getting bigger. And it's like I'm getting a call returned from Dolly. And then we're singing together. And then me and Elton were going on vacation together. And we're writing songs.

And then Joni Mitchell that turned into a whole other world. I mean, I'm just guessing, but I feel like of the other two.

“I feel like Joni, you need to do a whole her into performing again.”

Yeah. I may have thought that at the time, but I remember you know who Restcunkel is. He's like this iconic drummer. He played on blue and he played on all this James Taylor. Like all the early.

He's even on tapestry. He's the dude. And he's still killer in doing it all the time. But I did this concert where I covered blue. And I wasn't even that close with Joni yet.

But she came.

Wow. And I had just had my first Joni jam with her at her house.

For anybody that doesn't know what the Joni jams are. It's something that we started at Joni's best. Six, seven years ago. She was recovering from an aneurysm. Doesn't play music anymore.

And we wound up in a situation where we had dinner. And she was talking about her house. And her instruments and her living room and saying, I don't do music anymore. I don't want to hear it. It's not a problem.

I don't want you to think that that's sad. I'm a painter. I'm a this. I'm a that. But my house miss is it.

And these instruments should be played. Wow.

“What do you think about bringing a few people over every now and then and doing these nights?”

Yeah. So that way I just had my first jam. And at the very first jam, I won't walk you through the whole process. But Joni decided out of nowhere to open her mouth and sink. Wow.

If nobody expecting it. Wow. Her Bianca was sitting at the piano. Get out of here. Her Bianca was tickling the ivory. Exactly that.

Oh my god. I was hovering over this diminished core that I didn't know what it was. Nobody knew it was. She did though. And she just goes summer time.

And the living is easy. And people burst into tears. Her bias in tears. All the people that have been taking care of her. And as she recovered from her aneurysm,

she wouldn't do music but then suddenly just decided to sing that line. Wow. So I'm telling Russ Conkel this. And he goes, she's saying. I go, yeah, she fully sang.

Yeah, maybe it's this or maybe it was because of that or it was just this. And he goes, one thing I want you to remember if you ever think that you're spearheading this.

Joni Mitchell always has a plan.

Joni's always got a plan. Yeah. And so I am convinced that she actually was the architect of everything from that first line to the Hollywood Bowl. She's kind of her so soon.

Wow. Yeah. She let you believe this was all your ideas. Genius. I mean, you don't have to let me believe something's all my idea for me to just go ahead and believe it.

She didn't say it wasn't. But I do feel like she orchestrated an incredible recovery for herself. I got to be the one in the back and you're see watching it happen. Cool. That did escalate into you guys playing at the ball.

How many shows did you guys do? We did two nights at the ball. Two nights at the ball. So real experience for you. Are you able to in moments like that be super there and taking it all in?

Are you like, yeah. I mean, you want to talk about welling up. I let a few of the Joni things take me by surprise. But that one I was like ready for.

I remember just sitting next to her on the second night.

Well, she sang both sides now and just openly weeping. Yeah. Kind of knowing it was the last time I was going to get to do it. Yeah.

I think these are the some of the most powerful moments in music history listening to this

woman sing this song, especially from a perspective of recovering from this aneurysm being 82 years old and really having looked at life from both sides now. Yeah. It's like how did I get this seat? Yeah.

Exactly. You must believe it. Oh, I guess you believe in God.

“But I was going to see you must believe in the simulation.”

The simulation. Explanation. We're in a computer model being run. Oh, like there's a live circuit. - It's a really good, it's a good, it's a good, it's a good, it's a suspicious, that night with you with Johnny Mitchell's a highly suspicious.

- That's highly suspicious. - That doesn't happen for people. - Oh, it doesn't happen. - When it does, you gotta go like, wow, God's really smiling, I mean, or we're in a simulation. - And what's gonna happen? - Exactly, or what's she's gonna drop me? - How long had it been since Tania had recorded an album when you guys worked together?

- I think a long time, something like 17 years. - What album gets nominated for a Grammy? - One, one, sorry. - One country album of the year and country song of the year. - Yes, after a 17 year.

- And she'd never want to grab me in her life.

And she used a country music way, paper icon. - Yes, yes, yes. - When you were imagining your own success and visualizing it, and you thought it was gonna feel like blank. I wanna know how much that delivered her dinner.

And then I wanna know the difference between being a part of something. Help someone else, do something, can trust those two experiences. - Well, it's over delivered, way beyond over delivered. There's just things like, you know, headlining Madison Square Garden, or winning a Grammy.

Or anything that happened with Joni or Dollier Elton or Tania or any Linux. It's unbelievable.

“And then if you take that part of my job and you actually backtrack it,”

it's why I'm married to my wife. It's why I have my daughters. It's why I have my brothers, the twins and why we live together. It's why our family is okay. It's given me everything.

And so to say it over delivered is such an understatement because it has woven the fabric of my life. Now, in terms of when you get something from it, like success or you learn how to do something, when you share that, for me, it's always as soon as I figure out how to do it.

So when I figure something out, whether it's how to throw a festival or run a successful tour, or maybe make an album that is good enough to wear, it garners the respective winning a Grammy. I immediately want to do that for or with someone else.

Immediately, I'm already bored with the me part of it. Right. And so when, by the way, I forgive you did what it did. Somebody mentioned Tania Tucker and I was like, that's next.

Let's get Tania Tucker here now. And then we get Tania Tucker here now. And then you hear about the next guy and you're like, yeah, yeah, let's get the door open for them too. And that is just sort of how I've seen it.

As soon as I figure out how to get in the door, I'm trying to find a way to prop it open. Yeah. It's really nice. That's the next mountain we were talking about.

That's what it is. It's, yeah, once you do get what you want before you sit there and marinate it and it long enough to let it change you, get right on to doing that for somebody else. Yeah, because that's where the elation.

“I mean, I think selfishly you can pursue that.”

It's so exciting. It is so exciting. It is, right? It's like the number one. Like I'll pull up to this house and I'm like,

yeah, I don't know if I'm like how weird so lucky we have a great house. But I look at Monica's house and I'm like, oh, yeah, look at Monica's house. Oh, that's so funny. I remember when me and the twins even early on around maybe the story you give up the ghost.

Anytime they would like move into a nice house or get something like I would go to their house and I'd be like, hell, yeah. Yeah. That's because of this job. That's because of this music.

We're making like, we're winning. Yeah. Yeah, I don't know if I'm like superstitious and I'm afraid if I let myself experience that I'll lose everything. And then I can just enjoy it for them without any of those fears.

I don't know what's going on, but something so much more joyous about that. You can see it objectively when it's not yours. Yeah. Yeah, it's quite stark.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. To you. So feel one of the twins married her little sister.

That's fun. Yeah. Is it that fun? It's really fun. Okay.

I was going to say. Yeah. Yeah. Complicated making family.

Were they trying to hide it from you at first?

Maybe a little bit. Okay. It was really awkward. First actually. Yeah.

I didn't mention that. Because she was so young. And he was like, not young. He was already older than you. He was already older than you.

He was already older than you. She was my baby sister. Yeah. I want to say she was like 18. Oh, shit.

And he was 28, 29. And we were already in a band. We've been on the road together. We were kind of bros in a way. Yeah.

And I was like, are you serious right now? And I mean, I thought to myself, it could definitely be the end of anything with me in the twins because you did not cross my brothers and sisters. He has that too. Yeah.

I mean, everyone has it. I mean, you guys have it more than others. I'll tell you if you have my sisters feelings.

Oh, my God.

My brother and sister, like, no. Yeah, but if they're in a relationship, they're going to be some stuff. But he's been quite gallant.

“And honestly, she has really, I don't want to say something”

to me. She's really grown up because she's like 40. But like, she has grown up married to that man. And in this band, that is how she has lived this second half of her life. Yeah, yeah.

And it's been incredible.

Yeah, so delighted it worked out. Yeah, that's why. Because they've been together for a long time now. 22 years of long time. Wow.

You've been with your wife for 13 years. We've been married for 15. Okay. And we've been together for like 16, 17. And so how do you mean her if she's from England?

We met. Actually, she was working for Paul McCartney. Right. She was doing his philanthropic work. Yeah.

And I had like a campaign running in Seattle called the fight. The fear campaign. We were teaching self defense courses to women and people in at risk. Communities for free because there was like a terrible string of like violent crime. That had happened in the city that year.

And when it kind of culminated in this really awful thing. And so it traveled across to England. It's just reading about this in the newspaper. And basically called up and was like, hey, what can Paul do? Wow.

The whole thing. And I thought to myself, well, I just started this foundation. I need some mentors. I came out foundation. Yeah.

I had a lot of principals that maybe I was getting in my own way a little bit. So I wanted to have this mentorship thing with her.

“And we got to talk it into for like a while.”

I thought I was talking to somebody Paul McCartney's age.

Oh, wow. I thought I was talking to a 70 year old woman. Okay. Wow. That's interesting.

That's almost like a reality show. Like you can't see the person. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And she was saying 70 year old shit, too. Okay.

No. Because she's English. Yeah. Yeah. At least you took the lift or something.

I don't know. She was doing 70 year old stuff. She was listening to 70 year old music. Her and a girlfriend were traveling like 70 year old people. And just had this vibe.

Did you have any more? I feel like I'm becoming attracted to a 70 year old woman. No. I just called her the charity lady. I'm like a charity lady.

And then one time I was playing in New York City. I was like getting ready to go out with all the baby dikes. We're all going to get on our vestibus and drive to the gay bar and drink tequila. And I couldn't wait.

And she came to the show. And I remember the tour manager being like,

"Oh, you're going to have to stay out of the charity lady."

I was like, "Oh." Really grateful to her. She's a little shit. Yeah. She got a lot there.

How did you get her backstage? No, 70 is like that's my age. That really old enough for me to date. But I walked backstage at this 27 year old, 28 year old. She's hot.

That's a loot. No, okay. Yeah. She ain't no granny. I mean, and oh my god, she was so charming.

And I loved her accent. She had black hair and bright blue eyes. And she was wearing this blazer. And she just was like hip and I was like cancel my plans. Order me a pizza.

I've got to stay with this woman. Yeah. Forever. Forever. Did she already have a crush on you?

She came to the show? She knew you weren't 70. She had that advantage over me. I don't know if she got a crush on me. She will say no.

She will say no.

“But I think yeah, she probably thought I was pretty cute.”

Yeah, you come to the show. You're the show. Okay. Now, here's another little bit of overlap. What are you smiling at? She's there.

Oh, oh. You're a good job. I did not put that together. I was like, should we ask her? I thought you had the Pablo said to me.

Let me look at these blue eyes. Let me look at these blue eyes. How beautiful she is. And now I can say it was theoretical. You are as fucking smokes show.

She is a smoke. Yeah. She's a smoke. Yeah. She's out.

I don't know what you're doing. How many of you did you knew? Yes. I thought you were Pablo's kid. No, that's my wife.

She manages me now. Okay. So I wasn't terrible at all. Be sure. She's got an official capacity.

No, we can ask them. Did you have a crush? She doesn't know. Yeah. When you came to that show, did you have plans?

I have my girlfriend with me. Oh. So I understand. Listen, do we're talking? I have no idea.

Okay. We're all intrigued by your voice. Listen to that. I know. Do you see what I was going to do?

And that's the order pizza. Yeah. Yeah. Let's go. Let's go.

Let's get this girl over there. Here. Does she have some errands? We ordered pizza. You can't even pizza, right?

I've heard you're gluten-dollar. You know each cheese. Yeah. The call of the flower crust isn't the twin-trusting girl. Down the water.

Okay. Our other overlap is we're both boat owners. Yes. You have the Captain Fantastic. Gorgeous vessel.

I saw some video of you piloting it. Yeah. And you have a pontoon. I have a tritune. Yeah.

Yeah. So is a tritune less redneck than a pontoon? It is. It's the newest iteration. They're more stable.

Okay. I have a 400 horsepower V10 on a pontoon. Okay. Oh, wow. That really moves.

It really moves. I was just on it this weekend. Our career Yamaha. A mercury. Wow.

That's a great idea, guys. Yes.

You got dual 350s out back.

Dual 400s. Dual 400s. Yeah. Okay. I need a second engine.

Yeah. You've got me doubled in horsepower. You just check out. Yeah. Me too.

Yeah. We could get into it. She really checks out. Captain Fantastic. Name the boat after Ellen John.

Yeah. And just congratulations. Looking out foundations.

Given knowing 9 million bucks.

I think that's incredible. You've raised that amount of money. A lot of different things too. Yeah. What's the thing about the foundation is I started the foundation in 2007 when GM wanted to use the story in a television commercial.

Right. And I was really young and idealistic. They offered me like $100,000. You know. And you know how old I was.

That's a very big deal. Oh. And I made all these calls to my friends. And I called the Indigo Girls.

“Which if you want to do a television commercial never called it.”

Yeah. And all my friends were like you can't do that. GM is one of the biggest contributors to pollution. And they've caused all these problems. It is rumored that they've squashed patents.

And that they're really restricting the progression of the electric car and the hydrogen engine. And the things that could help the environment. You can't work with GM. So who knows how much of that was true. But I said no.

And so like the VP of advertising at GM was like a 20 something year old kid can't say no to $100,000. Unless we're getting a really bad reputation. And they called me and they said what can we do to convince you to let us put your son in the Olympics and give you $100,000. Yeah. Yeah.

I'm going to make this even better for you. Yeah. And so I thought about it. I made some demands and they acquiesce to all of them and it was really cool empowering moment for me as a young girl. Yeah.

And then I took that money and started the foundation. And that's where we used it for. But since then the foundation has done the things like fight the fear campaign that I've shown you about. We've done a lot and hunger. We've done a lot of LGBTQ focused stuff and in recent years.

The plight of displaced people and outreach to refugees and asylum seekers. Children whose lives have been torn apart by war. Immigrants economic migrants and the way that we navigate this other border of become focuses of the looking out foundation. And you did coldwood relief stuff. We are really campaign based.

“You know, maybe it's an ADHD part of me.”

If that's a real thing for me. I like you're the only person that's actually been diagnosed and you don't want it. I know you're the only person that's been diagnosed and they want it. You're like flipping the script on. Terminal units.

I just don't accept. Do you know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah. It's not punk rock anymore.

It's not. No. So that's the foundation. That's awesome. Okay.

So returning to myself is currently out. And you are on tour. You have two or dates of people could go look at Brandy Carlile.com. And one of the things I want to say before I get to be serinated. I'm so excited about that.

That's it. Everyone listen to me later returning to myself. If you're not already obsessed with it and go see Brandy live. This woman is like the Beatles. She's played as many live shows.

Your guaranteed for a good show. I mean, you've been playing this kind of crazy right at 44. You've been playing for 30 plus years. Yeah. It's fantastic.

It's second nature to me by now.

But it never gets old. Yeah. Just like your sense. The best job in the world. Yeah.

All right. I would love to hear this song that's going to make me think of my children. Yeah. My buddy Marcus on. And he did this right?

Yes. He did. You don't even need a bottle. Oh my god. This is post.

I have to work as to this. Oh, I think he said that. By the way, we loved him. I know. You must love him, right?

My god. We are like six. Yeah. He brought you up a lot. He's like loves you.

Yeah. Special dude. I love his solo album. Oh, my god. Oh, yeah.

“Such a good piece of music and really important.”

I love mhm. I love mhm. I always have. Um, and keep on with the levels you want me to sing. [MUSIC PLAYING]

You know, it's crazy we're sitting here talking. You're just so charismatic and special. Before you do this. I know.

And then you do this and I'm like, well, hold on a second.

You can't have all that. You know what? You know that is super power on top of having a great personality. You get kind of one or the other. You're so funny.

Super power is too. I don't want that one. That's a hard one. And you haven't even seen me drive that pontoon. That's got to be what you're referencing.

Yeah. I can just see the wake though. [MUSIC PLAYING] So this song, it's about kids that are our kids age. And it's about these little moments.

These are like micro separations where you see them do something that you didn't expect. They're trying something out that they're going to need later on in life, like when they're not with you.

It's called like a "You Without Me" moment.

And I'm wondering what yours was because my friend Ben, when he first heard this song,

“he had this moment where it was like, they were at this big party weekend thing.”

And Mark Ronson was DJing and he was going to let his oldest daughter stay up late and like dance with him on the dance floor. And they're out on the dance floor and they're silly dancing and they're being goofy and they're doing the thing. But she started to like her on music. So she sees a group of older girls, you know, she's maybe 10. And they're like 14 or 15.

And he gets distracted and she leaves him and she goes over to them. And she starts trying to dance with them, like the way they're dancing and like relate to them. And he said that he looked over there and he saw her and he didn't recognize her. That she was an independent autonomous.

And she was taking a risk and she was using her body and voice in a way that he had never seen.

And these are the little moments where it occurs to you that they're going to leave. They're their own people. Yeah, and they're tiny things at first.

“And that's what I wrote this song about.”

It's called You Without Me. Was your smile always crooked? Was your freedom ever free? Do you kick the rocks between your feet? After all this time with me, you can listen to your own records now.

To say what you believe. Can pray on stars and skip the gods like stones across the sea. But I wouldn't know you anywhere. I lost myself in you. And heavy or things that you are free to slip right through.

Do what you have to do. And there you are. My morning star. I wondered when you'd show. Give me a truth to quick thumbs up.

A wink before you go.

I never heard that voice before today.

I remind myself to breathe. And there you are. It's just you. Without me.

“I'm late to another game, I guess I've never learned the rules.”

I showed up with a broken name and handed it to you. I'm not sure if you can fix it now. But if you wanted to. I'll follow you around and carry all your tools. Because I wouldn't know you anywhere.

I found myself in you. And heavy or things that you're all good. Change and see you go through. Do what you have to do. And there you are.

My morning star. I wondered when you'd show. Give me a truth to quick thumbs up. A wink before you go.

I never heard that voice before today.

I remind myself to breathe. And there you are. It's just you. Without me. Without me.

It's unpredictable as time and age. It comforting and some strange way. The time makes everyone buzz and absolutely shake. And when I met you face to face. None of it was true, so.

Who am I? Fine. Not you. There you are. My morning star.

I wondered when you'd show. Give me a truth to quick thumbs up. A wink before you'd go.

I never heard that voice before today.

I remind myself to breathe.

I never just thought away.

“If ever you need me, you're gonna live alone alive.”

You're gonna see a lot of years. God willing. Just you. Without me. There you are.

It's just you. Without me. It's just you. Without me. It's just you.

Without me. You're gonna have a whole life without me. It's gorgeous. It's bitter sweet. You got to go like, oh yeah, that's a sign.

That's a good job. That's all you get. They're just like, see. I know. They're not thinking about how you think about your parents.

Well, I know, but there's a moment. I know there is. Yeah, I got my 20s to do girl. I'll talk to you later. 20s is coming.

You know, you got to do your 20s.

Yeah, no. No. Yeah. No, no. Hopefully it comes back around.

Yeah. They do it for them.

“They go and they just do like one little thing.”

It's one little interaction you see them do. Yeah. You're gonna be for the rest of your life without me. Oh, no. Take me.

I'll carry you to the whole thing. I'll carry you to the whole thing. I'll carry you to the whole thing. I'll carry you to the whole thing. I'll carry you to the whole thing.

I'll carry you to the whole thing.

I'll carry you to the whole thing. I'll carry you to the whole thing. I'll carry you to the whole thing. I'll carry you to the whole thing. I'll carry you to the whole thing.

I'll carry you to the whole thing. I'll carry you to the whole thing. I'll carry you to the whole thing. I'll carry you to the whole thing. We're like, let's talk about coming from nothing right now.

Yeah. And then all in the world, the other rug is all in the world. Nothing could be better. Well, Brandy, this has been a long life. Thank you for joining us.

So nice. I'm really glad. Honest got good taste. She sure does. She picks a mentor boy.

It's a few and far between. Sure. Yeah, thank you so much for coming. This has been so lovely. It was for having me.

Yeah. Always come on. We'll talk to you guys. Oh my God. He's coming back.

Yeah. I love you. I love you. Ready to come for the fat check so you can hear all the facts that were wrong.

“Okay, we just ordered drinks from Aero one. Okay, and I'm putting it in I'm trying to order it and it's saying you you have to meet at the door”

This can't be left. So like that's weird. Okay sure. Yeah, then it says you have to show your ID and we ordered you something to Stand or disclaimer in case you've ordered alcohol. No, because I order Aero one like every day. I'm not every day I mean, but I order that I bet you can predict my reaction to this What? Which is like prime talking. We want order from you. You don't even you got a show ID. It's like this is my my beef with the place that wouldn't require to signature no matter what it's like our policy

It's like great. Well, then I won't I won't be using me. Okay. Well, I already ordered it. You didn't predict that. No, I didn't because I what I of course think is so you got a new drink We don't know about it's like new and strange. It has coloss tremendous. I think that's the only strange part. Everything else is not newer But like maybe that is what's requiring it?

You got to be an adult to drink.

You got to show your under two. Oh my god. Well, I think this is interesting that I do too You got a breast milk and your coffee. There was no and I want to make it. Yeah, it has colossus

“There's no alcohol and it's so why would you need exactly that's why not, but now I have to check. Okay. Yeah”

I mean that would detect alcohol immediately That's interesting that was in last night's Meaning Tell me just people are kind of one person told a story about ordering up, you know a

Coke and it came there's always these moments for alcohol and inevitably you're going to bump into some real alcohol. Oh my god

Yeah, tell me how that works. Yeah, I'm my You know my second dad and I were one time and why I mean and And I ordered a guy Coke and he ordered a ginger ale and Our drinks came and and we both took a sip of them almost at the same time and I mean was like oh, this is jack and die Yeah, and then he's putting his drink, honey goes

But this is what was really funny

“Is he goes try this is they're jet like oh, God, isn't it really?”

Thank you. Yeah, you would normally you say something funny. Yeah, and I was like I'll take your word for you. Oh, yeah, you shouldn't try it

But it was just kind of in things like does this smell funny right totally like does this taste like anyways?

They were both lace with jack Daniel. Yeah, a jack ginger and a jack and die I have a lot like look I have a lot of respect for servers and food staff and chefs and kitchen workers But that makes me so angry. It does. Yes. Oh, that kind of mistake only that one Yeah, is so bad

It is so dangerous Well, don't understand what can happen sure sure sure. I mean look we could we could look at this from a lot of different angles I would just say right out of the gates What percentage of people in the restaurant and any given time are recovering addicts?

“It's like a lot to give you have to protect the most vulnerable. Yeah. Yeah. I just I imagine he's got tickets any”

You know or she the bartender got

You know six different coax and jack and I See how it happened But I do think it is incumbent is your responsibility If you're bartender or Or what a yeah, yeah, I guess it was bartender right? Yeah. Yeah, it's gonna rest around they got to put in the drink order with the bartender

Yeah, to be aware if there shouldn't be alcohol in the drink But what could be for kid? Well, thank you. I was just I just had gotten to that place in my head I was like if it's happened to me and it's happened at home and it's happened to well almost every dude in the meeting had had this Yes, surely kids are getting and do they think like oh, this just tastes funny But I still like soda

It's probably like you like something's wrong with that. I like to think that some kid just powered through it It became an alcoholic Well, again, most people drink don't become alcohol all that a lot of us do This is a fun like philosophical conversation, which is like I don't think it's the responsibility of the masses To be changing their whole life because some small percentage of the population has a thing

I just don't think that's generally don't either, but this isn't changing anything. This is just being careful Well, no, I mean even the notion that like well you can't have a if a kid drank you'd be an alcohol like Oh, it's like well, that's not true. Most people that drink are an alcohol like so that's fine Yeah, but I think that would be a common kind of reaction Well, no, I think they're just like don't give my kid alcohol like that's very that's bad

You want to decide when your kid has alcohol. Yeah, and and it is illegal I'm so sorry. I haven't I do not disturb but for some reason it's still yeah Do not disturb why would you be buzzing see that's like my my door bar is you're not supposed to buzz Oh, it's cuz it's Kristen. Oh, she has an override. She has an override if she calls and now I'm realizing she has an override if she texts to She had to call twice or text twice or it just immediately is an override time. She calls it'll actually ring. Oh, that's nice

I learned that from total wolf Remember he was in the interview and his phone rang twice once what this is wife and once was one of his children Oh, yeah, that's right. Yeah, and he said oh, and I was like I didn't even know you could do that. That's cool Okay, I did look it up and Cold brew coffee with cowboy colostrum though like what does it mean cow boy colostrum?

But okay heavy cream and maple syrup. That's all it's saying. Oh, enhanced with Luca macca and see salt. Maybe they don't want kids to have macca cuz it's a lot of caffeine or some shit

Maybe I'm just thinking that like it's a policy gone or I

Yeah, it's like they flag some certain thing and now this got and snared in it

But then I can't I bet it's colostrum, but we need to figure out why like you need a further. Oh my god What if you get addicted to colostrum now? Okay. I'm gonna and trouble for this But it's it's in keeping with this conversation. We already have it. I just said red that they're like sentencing someone who is in between I don't know what chain of events they were involved with the Matthew Perry overdose

“Oh, I've heard about this and they just got sent in so I think someone else got sent in like a doctor”

I think right yeah, and my kids and I were talking about it and I was like no That's not how it should work. It might my analogy was Kamaha Kawasaki all these motorcycle companies they they all sell

Motorcycles that go 200 miles an hour. They're for sale the dealership a 16-year-old can walk in and buy it

They don't have to prove at all that they've ever ridden nothing and quite often those kids go out and they die on motorcycles It's a way too much motorcycle Yeah, that's that is living in a country with liberty like you do have the right to Be a mountain climber to do dangerous activities. That's not the same. Well, no, it's it's identical If you if you remove the word legal or illegal and you just say that there are many products that are sold that are just inherently dangerous

Motorcycles drugs guns alcohol alcohol cigarettes cars There are products that are dangerous. Yeah, and I really believe unless It's a situation like wake-to-back or they know

Because it's cancer and they're

“Stifling that information like I think you should have full awareness has a consumer of what the I think it should be like”

Yeah, you're gonna buy this motorcycle it goes 200 miles an hour and you kill yourself really easily Okay, now if you want to do that that's like the your life So no, I don't think someone that sells a dangerous product should go to jail because someone else used the dangerous product Kill themselves. I think it's the person who use it has to have the responsibility. Well, not if it's a doctor. It's a doctor I think that got in trouble. I think maybe I'm wrong about that. Yeah, but again

It's not a doctor. I'm more aligned with you, but let's just say that what I guarantee is that the doctor hadn't given him a dosage That killed him what I guarantee is that he had multiple sources or stockpile or whatever and he took on his own a Dose that no doctor would ever recommend. Well, we don't know that. We I do How like Michael Jackson's doctor also gave him way too much like they're giving what the people are asking for

And that's the whole issue. It's they have a do not do no harm Obligation and if it's just like well this person's paying me in some wanting more than a really I should give, but I'm giving it that's a problem Yeah, we would we would need more, but I can tell you we would from everyone I've known who's overdosed in the last 30 years of sobriety No one was taking it as prescribed

Right, but this was ketamine. Yeah, so there is a safe dosage of ketamine a lot of people in this country have ketamine prescriptions Yeah, but like if I got a prescription for per cassette, right? The one point knows the big boys and this has taken one every four hours and I take that jar and I take eight right away Yeah, that's on me. No, that is on you Then what he did what what our boy did was he O.D. He took way more than was prescribed him for sure

Well, I don't know if it's for sure because it then every doctor who had an out had

“Someone O.D. would be in trouble and that's not the case. Right the only thing that makes that I think this”

Reason this person's going to jails because a the person that died was famous I think a bunch of people of O.D. don't ketamine other drugs and there was not even an investigation Well, I guess someone O.D. That's what happens on drugs when they're abused But because it's him They're like well, we got to figure out who killed Matthew Perry. That's not what no one killed him. Well, again

I don't know that this is I don't know enough about this doctor or what was being prescribed Do you know that I read what he was on when he died and it was an insane amount of ketamine? And it was not what his prescription wants. He was a drug counselor that connected Perry to the ketamine queen who delivered him the ketamine Yeah, he had him in Queen is tricky. I don't know now about what that's like the entity. He did it

No one else did it. He did it. Yeah But if you're a doctor, you you can't Cleans a doctor. I assume let me look it up Yes, this person British American convicted felon and drug dealer known as the ketamine queen She gained international attention falling her in diamond and subsequent guilty plea and connection with the overdose of actor

Mythena.

She looks kind of in

Kind of in the prosecutors alleged that she operated a drug distribution network from her north Hollywood home for several years

sentenced to 15 years in prison for her role in supplying the ketamine that would cause Perry's death Just think of me people drink to a fatal level that happens a ton Yeah, but you can get in trouble for over serving I can go into the store and I can buy ten fifth. Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, so we would agree The jacked annuals company should not be held responsible because someone went and bought How does she even get the ketamine this lady?

“She's probably I'm just clearly illegal what she's doing as a legal so that's why she's going to jail”

Yeah, she's drug dealer drug dealers, you know, but I agree that if you I think drug dealers In certain cases should go to jail. Oh, you do. Yeah, you're getting a legal drugs off the black mark I mean, yes, you're engaging in a lot of illegal activity. I think the time that I'd be fine with a drug dealer going to jail Would be when the drug dealer knowingly sold someone Fenton all under the guise of it being heroin knowingly. Yeah, I mean, because then then they're a marker

Yeah, exactly then the person that got it can't really dose it correctly and They have deceitfully misled this person, which may have caused their death But if I'm selling new crack cocaine, I go, hey bro, this is crack, you know do what it with you I really don't think it's on the person who sold that got it illegally No, it's a crack leak. That's kind of what I'm trying to have the conversation about is because we labeled alcohol legal in this other thing illegal

Yet we clearly think because alcohol is legal that no one's responsible someone drinks themselves to death And so you're saying that because one is classified by the government as illegal and one is legal That's that should make the person who sells it go to prison. Yes, because there are regulations on actual alcohol like you It's labeled 12% to blah, but like crack is not like it's if if crack was legal Then it would probably be under some sort of system where you'd see the amount it would be like

Supervised in a way. And now it would be held responsible. Yeah, right, but that's fine then I am act fine if we lived in a world where it was legal and it was regulated I mean, this was a whole mayor this is the whole debate about marijuana for years and years and years which now and all these people went to prison and were held responsible for other people's abuse of something

“Yeah, and I think we all now agree that was about it. That was wrong”

Right, but also because now just because like marijuana isn't a problem Yeah, but crack is a problem You would keep it to catamine because you can get a prescription for catamine. There is catamine therapy people do use Catamine therapeutically. Mm-hmm. I personally don't think it's a great idea to use Catamine pair. Because why? Because I've seen it go wrong more than I've seen it go right and not even in death

I've seen a very temporary patch for something that long-term wasn't a good solution. Right, and you think it has a risk of addiction? Yeah, just like cigarettes alcohol called caffeine Um, most things that do you think it's more or less? I'm actually asking because I don't know a lot about

Catamine. Yeah, I don't I've never taken Catamine so I don't know how sticky it is. Yeah. I know sticky

Opia czar. Yeah, exactly. Um, I know how sticky cocaine is. I know how sticky alcohol is. I know cigarettes like yeah, all of them cigarettes are the stickiest. There's a bunch of junkies that'll tell you

“quitting smoking was harder than quitting heroin. But again, that's why like because it's legal, it says like”

basically it says on the box like this is going to kill you. But my only issue is cigarette manufacturers were when they knew it was causing something. Yeah, horrible. And they silence that. Mm-hmm. And so to me, if you have total transparency, I do think I want to live in a country where people get to evaluate the risk they want to take. And then also, I don't think it's fair to the 90% of people or even the 94% of people who try cocaine and don't become addicted. I don't think it's

fair to those people that because us 8% have a problem, you guys can't do it. I don't think that's fair. Well, we can't do it because it's not regulated and there is fentanyl in it and there is like there's so many it's not are you saying you think cocaine should be legalized? No, I don't think that. I think that we've seen the experiment run it doesn't work. That's my opinion on many classifications of drugs. I do think they're too addictive and I think the barriers that exist

are what help going from 94% of people never getting addicted to, you know, the eight. I think

if it were five dollars for an eight ball and is at 7/11, I think it was the amass of up to you.

You would.

So that's one topic. Do I think it should be legalized? And then another topic is do I think people

“are responsible for distributing a product that's dangerous? And someone abuses it and dies.”

I don't. I don't think the kid who breaks the speed limit on his new Yamaha R1 and is going 180 on the five and kills himself. I don't think the dealer is responsible. I don't think Yamaha's responsible. But again, the difference is we're, I do think the difference is legality. I know, but that's just really, we would agree. That's arbitrary. We'd wasn't legal two years ago and now it is. Right. And so now we now we think that. It's like, well, that's been consistent.

Because like, it, it, it doesn't do that much harm. There's been, we have enough, we have enough evidence of all of these drugs at this point to to rank. We feel very, exactly. And and lethal to yourself and like, you know, to society like what it's going to cause. Knowing you're going to even more fun to bake, which is sometimes the ones that aren't lethal

“are weirdly more dangerous. So like weed and alcohol. Yeah. I think bizarrely, they can take”

more of a toll on your overall life because they're not so extreme. Uh-huh. That you can habitually do them forever and lose big chunks of your existence. Yeah. weeds going to be. I think at some, there's going to be one, there'll be some study at some point when we have 20 years of data on what happened with this experiment. And although I'm in favor of it, we're going to see it's just a more innocuous, it has more innocuous in subtle consequences that are currently being

completely ignored. Sure, like in a way that maybe, maybe if someone is addicted to caffeine and then they can't sleep and then they have about, you know, like, yes, there are consequences for anything you do. Anything you can sugar. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You know, let's go where do we draw the line?

“Yeah. And I think you have to draw it at, you have to draw it somewhere, obviously. I think we”

both agree. We can't just have a free for all three of the data for it. Back in the early 1900s when these curals, when people went down to town with curals, in 30% of the curals was opium, you saw, there was a moment in America where like 30% of the country was addicted to opiates. So we have data that when you make it wildly available and it's not illegal, it's bad.

You're going to have a third of the population. So back to the weed, what makes me think we will at some

point reevaluate it a little bit? Not to say we're ever going to make it illegal again, or that we should. But my anecdotal experiences, I drive, um, dealt to this school every morning on my motorcycle. Uh-huh. And when I am, well, both directions, but certainly I'm more aware of it when I'm driving home by myself, I smell weed the whole way home in LA. Yeah. And I have to go like, oh, yeah. So now that it's legal, a lot of people have transferred to many, many people are getting stoned the second

they wake up and on their way to work and walking around in the morning. Okay. I'm not judgemental of it. But I am suggesting that's going to show a little verbal that we're going to see some, some down river consequences of people waking up in a immediately getting stoned. I mean, my guess is yes, but I also don't know. We have Seth Rogan, you know, he's extremely not affected negatively at all. For sure. And this is a hard one for me because I don't like weed. I don't personally. I don't take it.

I don't enjoy it. So I don't feel like I have a dog in this fight, really. Here's what you don't see.

I saw one time. We'll have seen it a couple times. I saw it in Russia when I was there in 1996, I guess. And it had, you know, the wall had only fallen at that point for what seven years or something. And driving in the morning from the boat to Katherine's palace, I saw hundreds if not thousands of men drinking vodka at 8 a.m. on sidewalk. It's called troll. Yep. And you go, hmm, that town has a drinking problem. And then we went to Sweden right after. And then we learned of Sweden's

taxation of vodka because Sweden went, we got a drinking problem. And so they wanted to start addressing it somehow. And what I'm saying is if you were driving home from anywhere at 8 a.m. in the morning and you saw one in three people chugging alcohol, vodka or beer, you go, huh, this isn't great. Yeah. But weed, this one I'm talking about, it's a innocuous quality, which is like,

Yeah, do you believe you can smoke weed and drive your car and smoke weed and...

to work and do a fine job? I don't think you're going to do a hundred percent. I don't think. I don't either, but I don't also know. Like, I don't know because I, I just don't. Yeah, it's not any other. It's just interesting how it's already like folded into our culture and it's kind of like you, you observe people smoking weed all morning and all I and you. It might be because it's still, I mean, not in a, not really new, but kind of. It's

so kind of newly legal. Yeah. And as you said, like, we could be seeing one in three people drinking

“all done and we don't. And I think that probably has to do with just the fact that it's been”

around for so long and. And you can't function as well and you can't, if you shoved or you smell like it and socially, you're like, man, you can't drink in the morning. Right. It's interesting, you can talk away in the morning. It's fine. No one really gives a show. I mean, I think most people do. I think most people, if they hear that are like, what? That's crazy. I think some people may be dumb, but I think the majority of people who, who hear that somebody woke up in the morning

and started smoking weed immediately are probably a little concerned about that person. Yeah. I am. Well, I just saw this, I saw these two ladies. They have a podcast about ADHD. They're both ADHD. And they are talking about why many ADHD people love weed because it's a dopamine dysregulation condition and that you can get dopamine from the weed. So initially they're talking

“about it. It's almost like heavily in support of ADHD people using it or at least maybe not feeling”

guilty that they're using it because it's like a good medicine for them. But then they were also very quite honest to say. And 36% of ADHD cannabis users have cannabis used disorder. Yeah.

So it's like it's over a third. And I also think we, it has benefited from the fact that we've been

saying forever. It's not addictive. It is not physically addictive. You're not going to go through with draws of the physical variety when you stop doing it. But you're going to go through a lot in you and your brain chemistry is going to be just for a while. And so I also know they were being totally honest about like what's not addictive. No, no, many, many people are fully addicted to weed. And their tolerance has gone up and up and their dosage has gone up and up and up and up. Yeah.

And their smoking, you know, a lot of religions are also mental. Like so many are that we'll kill you. Like not, not just, it's not just like a silly thing to say. It's very, you know, my brother used to smoke so much weed. It was like it's not addictive. It's not addictive. And I'm like, you are addicted. I can tell because because you, you keep getting in trouble for this. It's having a consequence and you can't or won't stop. Right. So maybe yes, it's not physically

addictive, but mentally you are addicted. Yeah. Yeah. So any prior one, second dick for we, any

probably won't break into a house for weed. And there's like, there is a even when you're jonesing for it, it doesn't reach the level of jonesing for opiate for jonesi for yeah. Stay tuned for our share expert. If you dare.

“It's fascinating. Yeah, it is interesting. I think I think though, we'll have a bit of a”

reckoning. I think it should say legal. Again, I don't think that the millions of people that are doing it like on the weekends or relax or taking a gumming to go to sleep. I don't want those people to lose that. No, they should have that. And also dickheads like me are going to fuck it up and abuse it. And then there's also going to probably be some questions about when you start doing it, what age and what kind of effects it has on your brain development,

yeah, your heavy weed user. Well, maybe they will start maybe eventually they'll be. Is it right now? Is there an age thing? Yeah, 18. Well, I don't know if it's 18 or 21. It would make sense that it was 21, but I have no clue. I would assume it would be 21 in it. And I probably wouldn't get carded. I know that. It's 21. It's 21. Yeah. That's a really big ding ding ding. Because I won't get a carded. Yep. I was at Chili's this past weekend.

Oh, with your mom. It was my mom and dad. And we did. Yeah. Great. Yeah. It was my idea. Oh, good. Yeah. Did you get the potato skins? I didn't. I got the case idea, which is my thing there. Yeah.

And the problem is my mom had made case ideas that day before homemade, homemade tortillas,

homemade everything. And they were so good. And they were really gourmet. And then I had this idea about the chili's case ideas, because it's so nostalgic. Yeah. And it was, it was fun. It was good. It was fine. Yeah. I just probably shouldn't have had it the next day after these like really

One of a kind case ideas.

I think about CTG, yeah. I was like, wow, you guys have tried these and chili, isn't we? Yeah.

“You went to TJ Maxx, which we always do. We went to Coles. We went to Nordstrom Mac. They're all in the same”

area. Yeah. We're shopping. And then there's the chilies right there. Our chilies were like a group going. And I asked, oh, my mom had asked earlier, what do you want to do for dinner? And I was like, I don't know. And then I said, have you guys been to the chilies? Do you guys still go there? And she was like, yeah, we go. And she's like, do you want to do that for dinner? And I was like, yeah, I do want to use the my dad met us. Okay. What was he? He was at home. He was on a tour. James is retirement. Yeah. No, he was,

he's not going to TJ Maxx and much to wrap up. No, I'd rather die. Yeah. He was home, but then he came to

meet us. And we ate there. And I got carded. Oh, lovely. Yeah. That's cute. It was cute. flattering. It was

cute. And then what was your cocktail at chilies? It was a margarita. Yeah. I didn't finish. It was bad. Super sugary. Yeah. And I, I said, can I get a cost of me goes one, but skinny. And those were, you know, two separate things, basically. And he was like, oh, I don't know. I've to ask. And I was like, charge me for the expensive cost of me goes one, but just make it skinny. Yeah. No way. That's going to happen back there. It didn't happen. Yeah. I don't know what happened, but it takes a very, very bad cocktail.

I know. Yeah. Um, so was it so beautiful in Georgia? Is it green as hell right now, spring? It's pretty green. Yeah. It's nice. Okay. Nice. Yeah. Um, but I thought it was moving back while you're there.

No. I never have that. Yeah. You never have that. I have, I have like, oh, like, I'm glad I touched

down here a couple times a year. Like, I thought I had a Michigan, which is like, oh, my gosh,

“I could live in the super nice neighborhood now. Oh, because that's what really fucked me up. That's what”

had me almost getting a house on a certain Lake in Michigan. Really? Yeah. I was just like, oh, I used to drive by the house, you know, I mean, every time I went to West Palmville, anywhere, which is regular, is one stretch, Pontiac Trown, look at these mansions with these huge yards in their on, one lake. I think lower streets, upper streets. And yeah, the notion that I could live there became very intoxicating. Yeah. Like, I could almost not resist. I thought better of it at the end.

Yeah. Should I had found a house and I was flying there to get it because I was just like, wow. I can't believe I can live where the basketball players lived. Yeah. So that's interesting. I don't have that. I mean, I definitely drive around there and I think like, you know, one difference, I think between you and I was kids, I coveted wealth. I, okay, I didn't covet what wealth in the same way you did, but I still did have like aspirations to have a lot of my shirt shirt shirt.

Like, and we didn't, we lived in the nice house. That, well, that is the difference. We lived in a nice house. But a modest nice house. Like, it, um, my parents would get mad because they would say, like, it's really nice. Like, it's a big big house by American standards. It's like a 4,000 square foot house. Less than that. But it is. But it's, um, but it's, yes, it is. It's up in like an upscale neighbor. It's in a subdivision. Okay. This, I was trying to teach Jess about subdivisions. He didn't understand

that. Right. Being from LA. He was fighting with me about suburbs because I was like, you don't really understand suburbs. Right. And he was like, what's sub you live in? Well, it didn't even say subdivisions. Hey, sub. Did you say sub? Well, no, because we didn't say we said neighborhood. Okay. So what neighborhood do you live in? But I don't even say that to people who don't understand it because they don't even understand what that means. Right. So I said, you know, because sometimes I like to do

suburban Fridays here, which is us going to a movie on Friday afternoon and then going to dinner at the Americana. Yeah. Yeah. I feel so suburban to me. Yes. And, um, and I was, we did that. We watched double was prod and then we went to the Italian western of the Americana. And, you know, they bring out the bread. It's just all so suburban. Yeah. And I was feeling very nostalgic and I was talking about the suburbs and he was like, well, yeah, I mean, yeah, Burbank is a suburb. He grew up in Burbank.

Yeah. And I was like, no. And then he, of course, had to look up on Chad GBT where, of course, it says it is. And, and to Burbank is a suburb of LA. Exactly. Yeah. Technically, it is a suburb.

“But a subdivision is a very specific thing. Well, that's what I said, but you don't have subdivisions.”

Like a real living suburb to me. Someone who lives grew up in New York. There are three or four streets you enter the subdivision on. And, and through those three or four streets, a web of streets are connected to it. And it's in so little world. And it's house up on a main road. Yes. And, yeah,

Yeah.

you'd go, what's up do you live in? And it was either Heritage Farms, Oxford Acres,

“Los Algardons, you were only four options. Okay. So, for us, yeah, what neighborhood do you live in?”

Okay. And it's a huge neighborhood like 800 houses. That was a good development. So, it was really exciting for Halloween. You wanted to go in Riverbrook, you know? Yeah. It was Riverbrook the nicest suburb. No, it was the one I'm saying. So, there's a nicer suburb. So many, so many. So, there were saying I was really, really fancy. It's also funny. It is so funny. So, that's, and like, I had friends who lived in these, you know,

and sugar, from your tips. I can't believe I'm forgetting this. That's just because coffee. But anyway, yes, there was some areas that's like, oh my god, if you live there, like, you've really made it. Can I tell you the coveted wealth part? Yeah. So, on the weekends, very, very regular activity for us. Maybe even every other weekend. We would leave our shitty welfare apartment, and we would get Mom's Pinto,

and we would drive to Bloomfield Hills. And what's the neighborhood? Yeah, there's 25 miles away. No, it's subdivision. It is a, it's an area. Okay. Got it. And we would pull up to the end of driveways and stare at the house, and my mom would say, these people went to college.

“Like, if you want to live here, these people went to college. And she drive me another nice house.”

This person's probably a doctor or they're a lawyer. You know, like, do you like that? Yep. This is how you get it. We did that all the time. Yeah. I do think that compounded my obsession with like wealth in like, oh my god, that's so out of reach. And we want that thing. So yeah, the lake with the basketball houses, I was very primed. That is, that used to be a thing. Like, yeah, when we were going to vacation,

we'd just drive around and look at houses. It's so fun. I love it. I still love it.

It's weird now that I'm thinking about that. Like, I would never go on a vacation and do that.

But we did it all the time. Any time we went somewhere in a car, where it was, yeah, we would go to neighborhoods and drive around and look at houses. Yeah. Yeah. Straight. See how the other folks live. I guess it's a bit like, well, I don't know. So funny. It's all so funny. We're watching Zillow gone wild now addicted to it. We have a guest coming up. Don't have to deduce how who that would be. Okay. But if you haven't

seen Zillow gone wild, it's from the Instagram account. Zillow gone wild. So it's these crazy listings on Zillow. Yeah. And the show goes and visits these houses. And there was the cutest Indian couple last night in Orlando, Florida. Oh, a lot of them there. And they lived in a castle. It looked like Excalibur hotel in Vegas. Yeah. And inside were like swords and all this stuff. And they were Indian stuff in there or like, no, it was all like nights and stuff. Okay. Interesting.

Yeah. And it's just, the whole, the whole table was so cute because they're from India. Yeah. And the dad is like clearly he's been successful here. Yeah. I'm like, look at this. This guy lives in a castle in America. Is this magic? You know, you would not want to live in this castle. I know. I want it. But there was something so sweet. And because it's the idea of America. He's guys in America. Yeah. Five acres in a castle in Camelot. Yes. And then they show the

children. I guess the children talked them into buying the house. And the children, it was on eBay, which I didn't even know. They sold homes on eBay. Yeah. It was just really cute because the mom did all the talking. A lot of it was very, and followed a lot of my stereotypes. But in the adorable way, the things I love about. So she handled all the talking. He just kind of sat there, not way. And then he got to show his sword. You know, like, when it was time to do

like this sort of stuff. And then the cute thing was eventually we saw the kids. How old are they? In their 20s. Okay. Taking advantage of their parents. In the sun, I had like a fucking

long ponytail, fucking tattoos everywhere. And I was like, these second generation. I'm not back.

It's in the river. It's so sad actually. You talking about your brother just made me think of the whole the whole scenario. And I was like, oh, you know, man, you got like, if you're, if you're migrating here from India, like, you have a lot coming your way. There's so many challenges for you. There's racism. There's this and that. You got to find your footing. And then the reward is you'll give your kids everything. And they will likely go berserk American style. Well,

“it's all connected. It's you're going to go berserk America's hell because you have to be”

American. Yeah. You have to very quickly assimilate into this culture and be whatever it needs you to be. And you don't really know. It's just a hard road. They, they, they, they travel. And I want to

Honor them.

know, to, to make it here and to provide this opportunity. And they're like, I think that dad,

“I'm going to blow joints and get that. That's why I'm such a good daughter. Yes, yes.”

We'll be. Yeah, it's about to be. I'm always been a good daughter. Yeah, I mean, you mean,

because I did do a crazy thing. You did a crazy thing. And you could be, it, it worked out. It worked out. So for my brother to be moving back at 36 years old, and you could have been in this doc about Zill. No. No. No. No. No. That's not in, that was not in my cart. Maybe I wouldn't have had all this, but I would have figured out something. Yeah. Um, we have much different assessments of ourselves had this not worked out for me. I would be penniless. That's so crazy that you think that.

I know so. I was just talking about it with Kristen when you're talking about somebody. And it was like, just get a fucking job, right? Like, just get a job or that you didn't get the management position. Like, at some point get a job. Right. Yeah. And I was like, enjoying that being a little judgmental. And then I was like, you know, Han, if I'm being dead honest, like, I could not. I couldn't have a job. I could be an Uber driver. I could be at 7/11. There's no manager. But I could not, at this point,

I have a 30 year old boss who I thought was dumb. It was making me do stupid things. I couldn't do it. I'd rather be penniless. I just don't have an image. What if you have a family? You can't just

“choose to be penniless. You have to support your family. Well, luckily, there are, I would be an Uber driver.”

I would be something where I could be an independent contractor. What I'm saying, I, I really

have always been terrible at. Yeah. And I'm admitting it. I've not been great when I have

idiot bosses. And most people have idiot bosses. I'm not talking about good bosses. But you're out of getting a good boss or well, even if you have a good boss, you're not going to see eye to eye on everything at all. And you're not going to be quiet about that. But listen, can you work on it? No, no, no, no, no. I know who I am. I'm 51. No, no, no, no, no, no. I don't mean now. I mean, this was, well, it would have happened much earlier. It would have happened earlier in life. I think we can't tell

people they can't change these behaviors because like, you can. You can't tell. In telling those people you probably could be an Uber driver. You need to need to be something where you don't have a boss.

Okay. Yes. Sure. You can be something where you don't have a boss or you can work on yourself. And

and decide like, okay, this boss is fucking annoying. Like, I hate him. And I hate that he's telling me what to do. And guess what? I need a job. And I need to support my family. And I can go home and

“forget about this part. Like you can. You can. You're 100% right. That's how people should be.”

I can believe that people can. That's how people should be. And they can be. I am not that way. I disagree. You, you don't give yourself enough credit for change. You've changed a lot. And it's, again, as you say, like, it's when push comes a shove. But that's what would this would require. You would be. I'm just telling on myself. You know, I got some bad characteristics. I know. This is wonderful. I don't do well with authoritarian. You don't.

You don't. But I think you, you could in a specific, given your life, I got a different way. That's why I couldn't direct commercials. I did a few. I got through them. I know. You, yeah. Yeah, you were in one. Yes. And I was fine that day. Yeah, you were great. You were great. But I didn't like it so much. And I'm like, I would rather not direct. If that's how we're already rich. So this is my point. If you, if you weren't. Yeah. And you needed the job. You didn't need the job.

But an example. So I was broke when I worked for CPK. I know, but. And I couldn't do it. I couldn't have him tell me I got a six or seven on my punctuality when I had been early every day. I, it's true. When it resist. Yeah. I just couldn't. I couldn't handle the injustice. I know. And I lost that job or I quit it. That's okay, though. You lost a job. To me, that's okay. Okay. He, that was weird. He told you. I bet corporate told him to do that. Yes, of course.

Not his fault necessarily, but whatever. You quit because you're like, I can't work for this corporation that is, is gaslighting me and I won't do it. It's how I'm quitting. That's fine. I, in fact, think in some ways that's noble. That doesn't mean that you couldn't have gone to a different job and worked for someone. I was so lucky that I had a job for 14 years. Exactly. But my bosses were my mom and my brother. Yeah. But in some times, that's the worst. That can't be.

We already knew how to deal with each other.

that that part gets tricky. It worked great for us because my mom knew the more I stay out of his

business and the more responsibility I give him, the better he'll be. Yeah. Yeah. So she just stayed the fuck out of the way. And almost every year I got more and more responsibilities where I was, oh, oh my gosh, the press. The costume has arrived. Did they make you show out an ID? They did. Well, if you take a sip and you taste alcohol, let me know. Okay. You'll know if there's alcohol in it,

“how will you know if there's alcohol in it? Has you'll drink the whole thing on one sit?”

I'll ask Rob if he can run up and get a pack of camel lights. I'll give you after you're done with it. And then I'll think I wanted to get cocaine. I know. I know. If you did, if there was alcohol and you'd drink it and you relapsed and then you did cocaine and like, we could sue heroin. I don't think it would. Oh, a hundred percent we would.

After the point I just made, I would never sue. Well, I'm cutting that obviously so that we can sue.

And then that will be so exciting. Talk about buying a house and blooming tin hills or whatever. With the ceiling, the ceiling and the old hill. Don't feel it. Sugar loaf. My God. That was going to kill me. Sugar loaf had really big houses. How's the colostrum? This thing is fucking delicious. Oh good. I'm willing to show my ID to get it. Oh, see, look at that. That's true, but okay. I want to do some facts. Yeah, let's do some facts. So this is like all connected. Because this is for Brandy Carlisle. And she grew up modestly and she's now

aware of how she said. Yeah, and she could definitely buy a house on upper straits, middle straits or lower straits. Yeah. Or long like those are the big boys. I really liked her. I know she was

happy. Yeah, I really, really, really liked her. What I liked her most, I was talking to Phineas about her.

What I love is how unapologetically ambitious she is and she doesn't pretend she's not.

“And I love that. And I, I think it's weirdly a good message to put out there because I think a lot of”

people think one need only be a genius artist. And that's not you got to call all the clubs and get on the right side. And like, you know, there's just a ton of ambition in America too. I agree. Yeah. Okay, our civil partnerships, okay, I was looking up the civil partnership and and gay marriage timeline in England. Okay, so same sex marriage in England and Wales became legal on March 13th, 2014. Civil partnerships were 2005. And I looked up because she said those

had to be like very secular and that's correct. They must remain legally secular. Meaning the registration process cannot include religious words, music, or hymns. Wow. Well, they send a monitor there to make sure that didn't happen in your ceremony. I don't know. It's just the honor agreement or whatever they call honor system. Yeah. Maybe. I don't know.

“But yeah. Oh, was Ross Kunkle the drummer. Did he play on tapestry, the album tapestry,”

Carol King. Yes. He did. He did do that. He did do that. He did it and he does it. Oh, you said, you like invented a reality or like a show or something where you don't know the person's age, but you hear their voice. And because she was on the phone with her wife, her now wife. That was an old lady. Yeah. That is a current that's currently a reality show. Oh, yeah. It's called Age of Attraction. It's on Netflix. Oh, my good. Yeah. Yeah.

Oh, I should want to hear the trailer. Yeah. Because we might have to watch this with the kids when Zillow runs out. I have data guys who are my age because it was the right thing to do. And it didn't work out. Obviously. Here, you'll be dating and even committing without ever knowing how old your partner is. Are you ready? Yeah. I don't know if these guys are my grandpa's age.

But you don't know who the space girl's are. I couldn't be in line. Best three-minute date I've ever had. But not a lie. I like to be in line with you with mommy issues. If you're not as hot as my mom, I'm not gonna marry you. Huh. If you feel as if you found that special connection, all that's left is revealing. You're age. I am. You actually see all that? Oh, my god. I didn't even know there were six year olds here.

Well, okay. I was gonna say my only issue with this show as I'm seeing it is they get to see each other. So it's like, but or leave this experience the same way you entered it alone. I'm definitely worried. What would my family say? Children? Yeah. And you hated babysitting.

All right.

seeing the people. We are seeing them. So there's a lot of shockers. Like clearly what's going to be

“the shockers. A lot of people are much older than they look. A lot of people are much younger than they”

yeah, but maybe what yes. But I think it is saying like that is what they look. These are the

people. So who cares what their age is. It's just a number Monica. It's just a number. Yeah.

“That's what that's what they're trying to do. Yeah. Anyway, people are watching that.”

I'm gonna watch that. Okay. I'm at the kids with like that and put back. And that's it.

Really not a lot of facts. Well, I really enjoyed her immensely. Me too. Yeah. A really like her. I love her. I love her. I love her. All right. Love you.

Transcript

- Welcome, welcome, welcome to Armchair Expert.

- Well, Seattle's like that.

It's within reason, yeah.

- About the spiritual element?

- My school that would have been awesome.

We really are vulnerable in a lot of different ways.

In a fun way.

Once I very first started making money, I did crazy stuff

Yeah.

They've never got to throw any bundles on me.

I'd be like, oh, my god, tell me about that.

Well, you get songs on Grey's Anatomy.

Sit there and play for him.

On his behalf, you very much wanted that.

I remember just sitting next to her on the second night.

Oh, my God.

You got dual 350s out back.

It's called like a "You Without Me" moment.

I never heard that voice before today.

You got to be an adult to drink.

Maybe I'm just thinking that like it's a policy gone or I

Mythena.

You would.

Yeah, do you believe you can smoke weed and drive your car and smoke weed and...

One of a kind case ideas.

Yeah.

Honor them.

We already knew how to deal with each other.

All right.

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