Chris Young (on being sentenced to life in prison)

I'm Dax Shepherd, and this is Lily Padman, everybody. - Everybody, it's me. - Welcome to our buddy.

“This is the most inspirational episode of the year.”

- Oh my goodness. - Fuck am I delighted we got to meet this young man. I get to meet his young man. Chris Young, the craziest story ever. Chris Young is an author and a public speaker,

and he has a memoir out now called The Wound is where the light enters about serving two life sentences for something he did at 22. - Yes, thank you. - That was not violent.

- Yeah, it's an incredible story.

It's so inspiring. It's very Victor Franco, man, search for meaning. It's really important. - It is. I agree, please listen to this one.

- Yeah, please enjoy Chris Young. (upbeat music) - No, no, a gallon a day. - Oh, yeah. - How do you break that up?

- Karen, I got in jail of the water. - You do. - Yeah, what would people ask you questions when you got the gallon? - It's funny you said that because I used to be embarrassed

when I first started, but I knew it was the most convenient and efficient way for me to get what I needed in me. - Yeah, yeah. - And so after a while, I got past it

because it was the conversation started.

- Right. I carried around the gallon of water in high school. It was the most hellbilly thing I ever did. We had well watered. I didn't like anyone else's water.

So everywhere I went, I had a fucking gallon of water and I just went, "Look, so bizarre." And people hate well water. - What is it tastes like? - It's like more mineraly, you know, like you can taste it.

- Yeah, yeah. - You had only city water? - I tried not to drink tap water at all because I went so long or drinking it. But tap water?

- Oh, yeah, you're a prison water. - Exactly. - It's going there. - It's going there. - Tap water, yeah.

- So, but I know what you mean 'cause when I drink beet juice, I feel like I can taste the earth. - Oh, yeah. - And I like to drink it on purpose

because it helps with the rear blow sales. And you have a sickle sale. - Yeah, explain sickle sale to everybody. - Sickle sale, Linemia is a genetic mutation that the body was attempting to adapt to malaria

and prevent from having a deal with the effects of malaria. It affects mainly people from Mediterranean areas or African descent.

“Because of genetic, you have to be born with it.”

And I have the form that is called SC. You have SS and you have SC. Each form affects the patients totally different. But what sickle sale is, simple and plain, your rear blow sales, go from a circle shape to a circle shape.

And that hook form of your blow sales makes them get clogged and accluded in your veins, which makes your body hurt. Imagine your blood not flowing, not pumping. It's like you got all clogged up in your engine.

Your engine is going to get the coffin. Your muffler is going to get the lead now black smoke, but this is happening with your body. And sickle sale is interesting in that instead of being dominant or recessive,

it's co-dominant. So if mom has the healthy gene, and that has this co-dominant sickle sale, you can make a split. Normally, one gene is going to be prevalent,

you know, make all sickle or normal. But this one allows you to make some sickle in some non. And when people have both of those recessive and then they make an only sickle sale, then they're really in trouble.

Exactly. Because you can have the trait. You don't have the full disease, but you can still have some of the consequences. I think we're just saying.

“And then that's what Dax was explaining.”

But when you have the full disease, it's because both parents have the trait. Such as in my case, both of my parents have the trait. So I got the full disease. I didn't realize until reading your book

that you can have spells of it. Like it comes on and goes off. Like you have different periods where it's kind of what we would think of as inflamed. What causes those and how long did those periods last?

So in the lexicon and part of people is dealing with what we call them attacks. But the professionals call them crises. So the sickle sale crisis can be triggered by anything such as dehydration.

It can be triggered by stress. So you took the words up loud, sorry, sorry, sorry. No, no, no. Actually, I was gonna make that last because that has been my biggest trigger.

I literally just got over a severe crises where I had to get exchange blood transfusion.

And that is basically like suck.

A lot of my blood out, including somebody else's blood, because my body wouldn't stop creating the sickle blood. Yeah. And I really don't have the crises as frequently as other people,

Both of my hips are fake. No, I need to get my shoulders replaced also. 'Cause the joints of deteriorated. So much that from that. Exactly.

'Cause your body, your body, anybody's body. When you need new rare blood cells, it takes it from the marrow and your bone. Now to mention when the blood's not flowing, now the bone is not getting oxygen and blood flow.

So it's two different ways that it's leading to deterioration.

“I think the triggers and catalysts of stress”

will always be there to the extent that you stress

is up to you. Yeah, how am I managing that stress? Exactly, exactly. And so with me this past two months, because I'm a strong believer in the power of mine,

mentally I was on top of everything, but eventually that energy of having to wrestle with them feels we'll manifest, and my body was like, "Hey, you know what fuck you is when you're about it?" Exactly.

They said, "Hey, fuck you, we're gonna take you down for a minute." That's what? The body said, "I need to reset." And if I put your ass in the hospital, yeah, you ain't got no choice, but to reset.

Yeah, the body weirdly protects you sometimes, even when it feels like it's trying to kill you. How long will the crises or attacks last? But when you were a kid, how long would they last? When I was a child, they would last two, three days,

and it would be non-stop pain, because the blood's not flowing. So I can't move, I'm running a fever, because technically I'm inflamed in my whole body, 'cause the blood's not flowing, so that leads to inflammation,

and at least to a fever, I would just cry. Imagine a child who is living with technically a stranger. As much as I love Big Mama, I got adopted by older lady in our neighborhood that everyone revered and called Big Mama.

So Big Mama adopted me and my brother. I was 10 years old, he was 13. And she already had six kids living with him, so it's nine of us in a 800 square foot house. Oh my god.

So each of you got less than a hundred square feet. Exactly. And so I'm sitting there crying, wishing I had my mama,

wishing I had a daddy, 'cause I never knew my biological father.

Never even seen a picture of him, never met him. But my mother's husband, he did try, and when they divorced, that's when my mama really just spirited out of control. When she was in root, would help with this.

Exactly, unfortunately, she was already addicted. Clarksville, Tennessee, we just built the house on the Comberland River two years ago. So it runs through your backyard, the Comberland? It does, it does.

Where is it in the state? Is east in Nashville or west? Where north, west? Just barely north, west, there was more just straight north. Where 45 minutes, if you try to speed limit,

would I've gotten from Nashville to Clarksville in 30 minutes.

“Okay, and are you getting close to Kentucky at that point?”

We're actually owned a Tennessee Kentucky state line. Oh, no kidding. Yes. Is it rolling green on the other side? Rolling green's middle Kentucky, so it's more northeastern

of Clarksville, got you. And I actually was already making memories in Bowling Green from being a young, promiscuous man, but I had to sit in their county jail for four years. Oh, Mike, William Bowling Green?

Yes. Oh, no, because they have a contract with marshals. And so when I was being held to go back and forth to federal court, I was in Warren County, Regional jail, in Bowling Green, Kentucky.

And I can't imagine there were any field trips to the Corvette Museum. I used to look out the window and just see the sign and just be going in for a day to not only drive any car. I can be a Honda Civic.

Well, along with Corvette. So from zero to two, it's just you and your older brother, Robert. Right, he's two years older than you. Three years. Yes.

So at two or three, you all move in with Mickey. And mom starts dating him. You guys move from downtown Clarksville in some projects to kind of a nice area in the north side. Yes.

But Mickey, what kind of deal was he? Mickey was the sail on the boat amongst the storm, giving us steel some stability in some direction. Unfortunately, because the captain of the boat likes to make sure all the sailors listen,

he was controlling to an extent that as a child, I couldn't perceive it as that. I just understood that everybody's complaining about mom. What is mom what doing so wrong? But then I'm also seeing when they're complaining about mom

and Mickey wants to complain with his fist. So to this day, I consider Mickey my daddy. The only man that ever tried. So I love and reverior him for giving effort. I'm not his biological child.

He could have said, F. Me, even when they started dating, not to mention once they got divorced. Because even though they got divorced and we moved and went through all the horses we went through, people gossip. And once the gossip got around that it was being so hard on us.

That was going to school with holes in my shoes. That I was going to school with too little or too big clothes. Not only did my brother push his pride to the side and reach out to Mickey, Mickey had made it possible for them to communicate and he came back around and he was trying to help.

“Yeah, he was a dude who worked at the post office, right?”

He never missed a day work, his car broke, he walked five miles.

So in some ways, yeah, he's like a rock.

and everything else that's going on and he doesn't act as best.

And yeah, it starts to get violent.

“Your mom was kind of a badass, right, in her day.”

Yeah, she was blessed to have a father who got his host along. My granddaddy was about his business and he got to the money. You know, my granddaddy had successful firm home, but then he bought and acquired other firm homes and then other small businesses just trying to pursue all his entrepreneurial instincts.

And so my grandfather made sure my mother was raised in a good environment and at the same time, good environment that line gets blurred due to the fact, this is the 60s and the 70s. So black people are only allowed in certain areas. And so he got money, but you want to interact with who you're allowed to interact with,

which is other black people. So you're going to be in the hood. You're going to be around certain things. And so by the time cocaine and crack came along, my mother's the pretty girl, who all the hustlers are hollering it, everybody's flirting with.

And she let fun become something that ruined her. Yeah, but she was tough. She liked to fight. She was helping on repeating to you guys. You shouldn't ever let anyone put their hands on you.

“Yeah. So after one of these beatings in your present for her,”

she grabs a butcher knife and what happens. Yeah, so I forgot to shut up my grandmother. I'm named after my maternal grandmother, Ms. Christine Hooker. And Christine was known to gamble and carry a knife and a gun. And my mom had learned from her, and my mama named me after my grandmother.

She died on my mother's 21st birthday. She died from cancer on Mama's birthday, January 27th, 1984.

And so grandma had always taught mama to protect yourself, no matter what.

If you can't walk in with your hands, you grab a weapon. And that's something that mama embraced. Hold hard. And so one morning, her Mickey having gone back and forth. And she said, you know what, I ain't taking no more slap. So a punch is I'm finna kill him.

And she pulled me and Robert together. We cried screaming, she's hugging us. And I also tell them to shut up and tell us suck it up. And when you hear us, get into it when you hear the Tussle, go call your granddaddy. And tell my kill, make it exactly verbatim.

Meaning, this is what's coming y'all. I know. And are you guys like, no, don't you? And you're what five and eight at this time? I'm about seven, because this is the last episode of Psalm 7. And my brother's 10.

And so imagine seeing your mother already wept up, bruised up, a little bloody.

And she's telling you, I'm finna murder.

Somebody did chew love. I love Mickey. Everything's so fucking confusing. Exactly. It's like when all Mickey's a good dude,

but how's he also hitting my mom? I'm trying to make peace with this. Exactly. And imagine a child trying to sort these thoughts out. And then this is happening real time.

So you don't have the space to be patient to organize the thoughts you've got to react. And in that moment of reacting, when we seen her storm out. And then we also heard the screen afterwards. We knew she carried out her promise.

But by time I hit the corner, I see blood dripping down Mickey, but I also see him stomping the hell out of her. And I see a grown foot coming up and down. And my brother Robert being the brave one, the older one. He took off running towards the fight.

I took off running at the door. Yeah, mine was like watching completely paralyzed with fear. Thinking, oh, wow, she's going to die. That's a real specific moment. And dad's already gone.

So where are we going?

“Where are we going when the dust settles from this?”

And just the deep fucking a masculation of wanting to protect my mom and not having the courage or size or strength is set me on a fucking trajectory for the rest of my life. I'm still dealing with that moment. Them inner child wounds.

And yeah, I'm glad that you're conscious of the heal from them. But I wasn't for a long time. Yeah, so like you said that feeling helpless, that feeling emasculated, but then also knowing that I am a man and knowing I do have the nuts to stand up.

It led me to taking what Master P was rapping about as not only a real fact of life, but it was also entertainment to me embodying it and naming myself soldier and literally being on the front lines every time. And is the scene you were soldier seeing? So just see was that for Chris?

Yes. Yeah. And soldier for the people at home and spell S-O-U-L-J. Hey, yeah. Yep.

It's like soldier boy. Yeah. But I was before you. I'm older than him. And I was naming myself.

Yeah. Yeah. You started. No, you know when he came out, you know, I used to get in the club and not my head, but I just feel like I hate the fact he's famous

and I'm not.

I was a young man. You know, no better.

“But yeah, when I got older, I realized that I am is the most powerful”

thought that you can have. I am thought. Because then whatever you followed that I am with, you are literally manifesting it because you were embraced that mentality and your mentality, equals your reality.

So me saying I'm a soldier, I am literally putting myself in harm's way because I'm saying I'm within the right. Whatever the situation is, let's go. But I realized also, I was spelling it a certain way because I was putting my soul in my whole heart, my whole being into anything I was

choosing.

So I had to finally realize, OK.

There's the added shame of when you're that fucking family on the street. That embarrassment, that shame. The spectacle, like, exactly, exactly the same on the street. Exactly.

You're trying to make friends and get girls and like, you're the fucking house on the fly. It's funny you said that exactly how you said it because making friends and environment where you're the butt of the joke most of the time is a hell of a complex situation.

Like, now that I'm older and I have tried to heal from a lot of things when I talk with my fiance, she's like, you got bullied. And you know, in my mind, I didn't look at it like that. And then some of them say, because that's weak. Exactly.

Exactly. And in my mind, those same guys are now my brothers, too. But when you go around with holes in your shoes and you musky and you stinky, kids don't know about it, they're just like, oh, you stink. I look at your shoes.

Your mom's a crackhead. That's the funny Jack was the biggest joke. That led to my first fight in school. I never forget his name.

I never said his name, but he was a heavy set white guy.

And he literally happened to just see my mom one day and he wouldn't let it go. And we sent him lunch and he and another guy cracking jokes. And he said, your mom's a big fat bitch. And Bob, I hit him so hard, blood just started oozing down his nose. But that was a guy that didn't have to see every day.

The guys in my neighborhood, I got to see every day. And they also are the same guys that I kind of look up to. I kind of love, but I also noticed a plan my mom would drugs. Yeah. God, it's so complicated.

So that transition from, I don't know, it's not clearly detailed in the book. But clearly mom partied here and there, but there becomes this period where your mom misses the project. She misses downtown. You guys are in a nice kind of area.

And but she misses it. So you guys always hang out at your uncle's baby mama's house. Yeah. Yeah. It's a good time there, right?

You go downtown. There's kids everywhere. There's family members. The ladies are playing cards. And you start noticing like moms not playing cards with everyone.

She's out. And do you remember at that age? I'm no it's hard to remember.

“But were you theorizing like what was going on or are you just not overthinking it?”

Yes, I actually asked my cousin Kudos, who's recent and he was eight years older to me. I'm six, seven, eight. So he's 14, 15, 16 and my brother's three years older me, so my brother is 19 and 11. And we're on the bed listening to music, playing a video game and I said, what's that shit? That shit.

That phrase right there is what I always heard the adults mention when they was negatively

talking about my mother. She's chasing that shit. She's chasing that shit. And I was like what's that shit? Because I'm one and one where she's at.

She's not in there. Like you said, everybody's in their playing cards listening to music and she's gone. And every time they would always say she's gone chasing that shit, that girl gonna let that shit ruin her, that girl got that shit on her mind so bad she ain't even here for the EQs.

So I didn't theorize, I asked the question, I didn't realize it at the time, but I was an inquisitive and I didn't know how to embrace that. I just knew people I would tell me, shut the hell up, you asked the too many questions. Yeah. You'd be quiet.

“Drugs is a big concept too when you're young, that's why now that I'm free and”

only free, but have some good things going for me, I never hold anything against anyone, but I haven't forgotten anything about anyone. And so a lot of adults, a lot of people want to come back around as if, you know, I'm your uncle, I'm your cousin, or you know, you wasn't when I was living with no electricity and no running water.

It wasn't when I was incarcerated with two life sentences. So you know, I'm not mad at you, but it's a convenient time for you to be involved, but now it's easy. Yeah. So did he tell you, he said, it's drugs?

No. They told me quick cousin. Okay. Yeah, my cousin was like, well, watch him out and my brother punched me, that was his way to try and give me an order, he will punch me in my arm.

Quit hitting me. That's the first time I come out of my mouth, but I'm still wondering, what is that shit? Yeah. Nobody told me what that shit is.

mother and even if you know it all about your mother, it hurts so bad.

“Your grandpa would talk really shitty about your mom.”

Yeah. His daughter is much as I've revered my grandfather for his entrepreneurial skills and for his material things, him as a person, I was too young to really get a chance to know. I knew him well enough where I was sad when he passed. I knew him well enough where this is granddaddy and I feel a sense of excitement when he

comes around and pride he's your grandma. He's a big dog. Exactly.

He came up fucking Clarkson, but I never knew him enough to make a conscious decision where

you're like, I'm not going to be around my grandfather no more. The person I did do that with that was candid in a way that I hated was big mama. One day after I'm having one of my sickle cell crises, the kids that we live with that I perceive as cousins now, but back then they just people we live with, they're picking on me.

They're talking and laughing them about, oh Robert, help me mama, I want my mama off. They're so cruel, it's good, it's good, it's good, it's good and they're making fun of me for calling for my mama and I'm like, you couldn't deal with that pain. If you had to go through a sickle cell attack, you couldn't deal with the pain and then they're like, I'm not even talking about the pain.

I'm talking about you calling for Penny. Penny's not here. You know she's not here, but I'm a child and this is my source of empowerment, my source of protection for so many years and not as gone, not as stripped away from me. You know, how many years I watched her decline, I just know now that I'm in this moment

of pain, I need someone and for years that had been that person and when the kids are making fun of me, I go to fight one of them, I go to stand up and run over there and

big mama must have been close listening and she hit the corner, she grabbed me and they

right. I don't know what the fuck you calling for, your mama for if she wanted you, you will be with her. She don't want you. God.

And I got to crying, I got so mad, I want to fight big mama so bad, so hurt and I hated big mama for so many years and she thinks she's helping you move past it and accept reality and her mind is like, this is the reality. If your mama wanted you, you wouldn't be with me. And that's not a reality we ever need them.

It's also not reality. No. It's so much more nuanced. Thank you, you're right.

“Like it's not like, oh, she doesn't want you, so that's why she knows she's an addict.”

It's like there's so much to it, major terminal disease. Yes. Exactly.

That she's going to choose over herself.

So yeah. Thank you. It's not to use it over everything. You say the best. Yeah.

As an addict, I know people are like they're confused by people not showing up for their family. Wow, you choose your addiction over your family's like, well, y'all, I choose it over myself. Exactly.

I'm killing myself. I already declared I'm going to destroy this thing. The ear shock that I also, yeah, I mean, that's where we're at. If I'm imploded and you can only imagine if you were around and you're going to get this, uh, this blast, you're going to be a part of this.

But big mom was my anchor, my rock, my foundation. She was my heart.

“What were the events that led to you living there?”

My mom and Mickey, she stabs Mickey, Mickey, Beast Herb. I go call the police by trying to police calm. They arrest her. And I'm like, what? I'm panic.

Oh, y'all, he's been her, they like, she used the weapon. She's going to jail, I like to do that. She go to jail. We go with my granddaughter for a few days, you know, they eventually make her bond. And my granddaughter had gifted my mother a house.

This house happened to be in the middle of the hood, though. We get to live in there and that's when mom and really just spiral out of control. And she quit paying the bills, the lights on water, get cut off. And she had another boyfriend that lived in an even smaller house that beat her as even worse than Mickey.

This is Roger. Yes. And Roger was fucking enormous, right? Exactly. Two 80, five, 10 looks like a linebacker.

He works for the city. You took the words, or I'm on my mouth. He's literally the spitting image of image smith in the face. And about the size of a brand or a lacquer back in the day. Uh-huh.

Just a monster. But he's partying, but he's still going to work. I mean, he's got a constitution, though. Roger was a functioning addict to the point where he ain't going to miss work. But after work, he's going to get drunk.

He's going to get high. He drunk to the point he's following around. But somehow, he's going to get up and clocking and handle it. He's trying to go to work. And so you know, that relationship was very abusive and same.

She stabbed him, too. Yes. Oh, yeah. Yes. At that time. Yeah, but they still issued the warrant after me and Robert cried and screened

enough. The empathy kicked in and it was like, you know, go handle them. You got to do some of these kids, but just know that you do have a warrant for your

Turn yourself into my morning.

Yeah. When she did not do.

“And we moved back to her house with no likes and no water.”

For two years, you guys living that house? Yes. No lights and no water. Yep. Just you, too.

No, my mother was there. But she wasn't there. Right. Exactly when she needed to be and she wasn't there, no, and mentally. No water for two years?

Yes. Can you imagine if you wake up in the middle of the night? Not only is there no lights. But I got smart enough. I start carrying a lighter in my pocket.

So I can strike my lighter to get to the bathroom. But I got to preemptively cover my nose, because when I lift the lid of this toilet, it's three people's feces from three different days of using the toilet. The dudes are in and out of that place probably partying with mom or no. I know this is not the best.

No manclature and I don't use this phrase now, but we call them smokers. So yes, people that got high, like my mom, they were coming and get high with her. Take a shit in your toilet with no water. Yeah. So the house was very derelict and very rich and big mama, the older lady in our neighborhood

that everybody already loved and knew she came one day and she was like, you know, y'all gonna go with me and my mom was like, yeah, and I'm like, for how long?

“And big mama was like, for how long you need to.”

And I'm like, no, for how long I want to be away from my mama is much as I'm mad at my mama is much as I hate what she's choosing. This is still my mom. You have a primal connection to your mother, because whether you're aware of it or not, you're literally the division of her sales.

You're a, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And then you just love Robert and he's such a fucking sweet brother and he's got way too much on his shoulders. And again, reading his story made me so sympathetic to my older brother, too. It's like they're doing everything you're doing.

And then also they have on their shoulders that they're the father, right? They got to be your father, too. Me. I'm writing a memoir of myself and I texted my brother after having to write some passage about them.

And I just wrote them. I said, dude, you did such a good job. Thank you. That's a good call. You know, he's going to hear that for a while, but it's good that you got to the point

where you did it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Some people get to that point and skip it and don't realize the embrace of moment.

“Well, I was just, I'm locked into my own experience, but it's like you just did it, right?”

It's like forcing and tell other people's story and your story forces empathy on you, forces perspective. Like when you really got to sit there and think like, oh, fuck, what was Robert thinking about in this image and all those things plus he got to protect you. He's watching mom get beat to death and she just stabbed somebody.

And you're in the mix and he's responsible for you. He got to think about man, Chris needs something to eat tonight. Yeah. Yeah. I'm thinking, I'm hungry.

Yeah. Exactly. You didn't think about anybody else's hunger, but Chris is exactly exactly. Exactly. So, I'm here to be born, I'm here to be candid, but my mother's brother, with me being

free now and me living a certain way now, he wanted to come back into my life and that's cool. Nothing against you, but within it, he wanted to try to dictate a celebration that me and my fiance just had and invite people that we weren't invited. And he's like, where they're family, I'm like, no, they're not family.

We might share some DNA somewhere, but family is a verb, they've never treated me like

family. I could care less about that DNA. Weirdly, Mickey was more of a family. Thank you. And we sure know DNA and Mickey was definitely more family.

And I said, I brought that up because I had to kind of check my uncle and as I'm checking him in the midst of it, he happened to say something negative about Robert. And I'm like, hey, hold on. You never can understand what that man went through, because one, you had a mama and a daddy that had money.

Exactly. This man didn't have a mama nor daddy and on top of that head to look out for me. Then turn around and make it a child himself when he was 16. That's a lie for you. Not to mention, then he jumped in the streets.

And that come with his own set of circumstances. I just want to mention quickly, you are a great student though throughout all this. Thank you. I appreciate you. You're getting AIDS.

You're like the only kid in your group that can be reporting that you're getting AIDS. You're like the only kid in your group that can be reporting that you're getting AIDS. You're like the only kid in your group that can be reporting that you're getting. You're getting AIDS.

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What's that? Trajectory. The murder of my cousin Kudos when Kudos got murdered, I was 10 and Robert was 13 and that's when I consciously knew, okay, he smokes weed because he didn't want to go to the firm with us.

He wanted to write with the older guy, the other guys because he doesn't smoke weed. He listened to music and when he got to the firm, I noticed I'm like, "He high." I know where weed is by this time and then I'm dabbling to, "I'm a child. I don't got access." He's 13 and he actually has access.

He's starting to probably use it to regulate self-medicating, exactly. But he also had an interest, he back then, you know, we didn't have the weed of today. It's not the weed of yesterday. And so back then, if you got some drove as we called it, when you didn't have no seeds and it was a surgery, it was actually truly grew with the hydroponic system, blusher blood.

I said that because most of the time, guys are going to have weed with seeds. My brother would take the seeds and actually grow some weed and a lot of people did that, but I could see he truly had an interest in it. But he's not around anyone that can tell him, "Hey, you can be a botanist."

No one is telling him, "He never met anyone that is ideology or anything."

Exactly.

“There's nobody at a guy that directs him, except to, "Hey, you want some money?”

You need some money. This is how you can get some money." And that is slowly, but for sure, I started to notice he was selling drugs because he popped up with a new CD player. And I'm a child, I'm like, "How you get this?"

He, like, such a such gave it to me and I'm like, "Gave it to you." He, like, "Yeah." I'm not knowing, no, he traded it for some drugs. Yeah. Yeah.

He gave me that. I gave him some weed. Crack. Crack. But Robert jumped in the streets when he was about 13 when I was 11.

First time I saw some drugs.

And it was just some weed, but that we slowly, but for sure, became consistent. By time it got consistent, I'm seeing Robert and everybody else in my neighborhood go from being kids with, not as bad a tire as I have, but to a little decent, a tire to not only a little decent, a tire of not even got cars and not only do they got cars, not even got necklaces and go-toes.

Yeah. And Jordan's exactly.

“But can you imagine having control for the first time in your life?”

Like, it's all hot. It's so hot. We all, we do. That's the thing that's, like, it's so frustrating when people are judgmental. No one wouldn't be doing that.

Anyone that wants to survive? Yeah. Anyone who wants to survive? And anyone who wants to survive. It'll happen even when you're not realizing your choosing is like being a cast away stuck

and see, you know, you can't drink, see water. You know the salt isn't here, but you're dying a thirst. Yeah. And the same way with a child, a teenager, you know you shouldn't sell drugs. You know, eventually you might get arrested.

Then you're seeing people get arrested. You're like, the odds of me getting arrested is pretty high, but you're dying a thirst. And like you said, you're like, you want to survive. And so eventually you're going to drink this sea water. And then you might do art the first day in the second day and then eventually you're

in the back of a police car. Yeah. Well, the other thing is, I think, from the outside people would think, but you declare I'm going to be a drug dealer, that's such a huge decision. But that's not what happens, little tiny things happen.

And then the frequency of the little tiny things happen, that all feel like one offs.

“And at some point you have to look around and be like, oh, I'm a drug dealer, right?”

Or am I wrong? No, you're right. Little things happen. And then all of a sudden you recognize, oh, I do this kind of a lot. And I, yes, I am.

Your self protection prevents you from acknowledging what's happening in some weird way. Yeah, like your body is composed of a bunch of sales. And then those sales are composed of subatomic particles, but they all come together to make organs. Then the organs come together to make a body.

Some different decisions, one by one, make you into, in like I said earlier, the most

powerful thought you can have is I am.

So those little decisions end up adding up to saying, oh, I am a street do, I am a dope boy. I am against it. Yeah. And eventually you get to that point of you walking down the street, you got some drugs in your pocket.

And you're a super nervous every time she's ahead, like it's like the police, the police, the police. And then it's to the point where the police are pulling up and talking to you. And you got a fully loaded 45 on your hip and a house in your back pocket. And you, like, what's up, man?

She's a shit. Yeah, exactly. Because they know you, you know them and just like, you ain't got no problem with cars right now either you're going to be an asshole and do something that you know is illegal, but you probably can still justify, like, don't know what you're going to just act like

as a normal day. I mean, my hood, you doing your job. It becomes that cat and mouse. So like, okay, we call it this in this weird dynamic. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

What age is Robert circuit and then a trouble? When did you get arrested for the first time? The first time Robert gets arrested, he's probably 14, 15. I'm going to say 14. It's a couple of young guys standing on the block and this particular police wanted to jump out.

They just straight run.

“So when they run, he catches Robert and he dumps him on his face and some rocks and”

Robert came home. His whole face was scratched up and Robert didn't even have no real drugs. He has some fake drugs and so they just called Big Mama at the station. She went into the station and they let him go.

That was his first arrest, but his first true charge.

He's 19, I'm 16, and by this time, as you said, the small decisions have led up to, I'm a full-fledged drug dealer. This is what I'm doing. They end up, and this is what he's doing, they end and they are. But we're making it easier for the police because we're doing it out of a house that we also live in.

Not I did. Party in. Yeah. Every time I stop. Exactly.

So much shit in my eat. Yeah. Exactly.

“Right house with ounces of crack going in and out daily, so yeah, you know, they kicking”

the door and all the drugs in there are mine. Me being a juvenile, Robert being the adult, he claimed everything is he is. Kept me out of trouble. But that decision in choice to try to keep his little brother out of trouble was also one of the inflection points in his life that led to some of the most stressful moments of

his life. He already had the baby, or he's about to have it. Yes, my niece at this time is two years old, going to be three. By this time, she's walking, laughing, and saying daddy in, it was torture for him. He didn't make it to prison, but he spent his last 18 months of his life in the county

jail. And then he died by suicide. Yes. Whereas. And the house that my grandfather gifted my mother, that house was a gift in the curse.

Twelve or six via the street, aka the Boulevard. The Boulevard is a name that I don't think. Anybody that was in Clarkshire in the early 2000s will forget between my mother's drug usage. Other people's drug usage, then me and my brother's drug selling.

And then the other guys in my neighborhood drug selling, the house became a staple of our neighborhood. Everybody knew about it. Everybody would do something at it in some way, shape from a fashion. And my brother laid on the couch and with my gun that I literally just had took off my

hip that I usually would never put down, not even if I'm going to the restroom or to the

shower. I haven't taken off my hip because I had just got arrested the week before. And I'm like, where I'm going, I don't need it. And I don't want to take any more of risk and chances. And he took his life with it.

Yeah. And you were your first 2007. So horrible. That's fucking brutal. It is.

Yeah. It was so traumatic and so hard, like it's a memory that is intoxicating. It's almost like I take a hallucogen, just remembering those next 72 hours because between me already smoking a shitload of weed daily. And then his death, and then mixing the Remy Martin, it was so convoluted to the point where

I don't even really remember sleeping.

“And when I do remember sleeping, I remember waking up, they can this got to be the dream.”

The dream and the sleep I'm praying and hoping was real, and not when I'm waking up too. But eventually I had to push off, the intoxication I had to push off the pain and I had to organize a funeral. How did you know not to try crack? Much and penny.

A lot of people watch and they still follow. And unfortunately, my brother was one. He literally admitted, you know, I wanted to know why my mom put this before everything. Like I literally was curious. He was like, you know, I had been curious and knew what I shouldn't do it.

But then one day I couldn't get no good weed because by this time we get money. So by this time, like I said, right now, if somebody buy some weed, it's not bad. We technically all weed is good nowadays because we're back then, but back then, it was

a good and a bad and he was like, I couldn't find a good weed and I had always wanted

what it was like and I had some crumbs and I just put the crumbs in the joint with the weed and tried it and for me, I never wanted to experiment because the stigma I will admit and looking to mirror and take that I was very judgemental. But now I realize all people are sinners and we're seeing in a way that we're comfortable with and then some people choose to judge those that's in and the way that they're uncomfortable

with. Yeah, but not to let you know both entirely. We got to add when you have nothing to acquire status in your low-wrong on everything. Some moral superiority can keep you afloat. You are.

It's like you're searching for anything that confirms that I'm not the same piece of shit as I think everyone else, you know, like you just kind of got to for survival, think

I mean, I don't know. Also smart, maybe there's something that just that straight-a-brain was just like I'm not doing that. That's where I draw the line there or something. Well, thank y'all.

Thank y'all.

And I definitely know what gives tools that peace can never give and peace gives a perspective

that war can never give. Being caught up in that dynamic day in and day out for most of my childhood, definitely had me believe in okay, I am not going to be a thief, but I'm going to be the biggest don't why I can be. I'm not going to be a mass murderer, but nobody's going to fuck with me.

And if they do, they're going to have to face the consequence. And so you do create this moral code that no matter how flawed it is, it is your compass. We can tell ourselves a lot of shit.

“When did that news reach your mom and what was the reaction?”

My mom was locked up, she was in the county jail. She had been there for the past five, six months, because she had a year sentence and usually when you don't go to actual prison, when you just have small sentences like that, they're you two for once, which is basically for every day you do with a county of his two days, as long as you keep a job in the jail.

So she was incarcerated and she had been in the county jail for about five, maybe six months and big mom took it upon herself to do whatever the process was. So she reached out to somebody downtown that could get in touch with the judge and the judge eventually signed off and gave her time served to release her to make sure she could come the robbers' funeral.

I never forget it. I was in big mom was front and run and I hear somebody coming down the street with all this crying and screaming and just making a thing. Unfortunately, you can probably walk down Hollywood Boulevard and see somebody doing it or sunset Boulevard.

So I hear somebody coming down the street being hysterical and I look out the door and it's my mom. And so you know she comes and she had to be in a sale and get the news to hate. Now only it's your son dead, but it's the reason why we're even releasing you. You really got a few more weeks.

You get arrested twice, what, 16 first?

I got arrested when I was 17 and that sent me to the juvenile detention facility for how long a month and a half. Okay, how was that experience? Not as bad as you thought it was going to be or worse or what you thought a prophecy coming true.

Kudos actually told me one time that if I keep acting and thinking how was thinking and acting that I would be going to juvenile detention. It was when you were declaring yourself soldier to see to them. Yeah. I had seen Kudos cry after he was arrested for an attempt in murder charge.

That ultimately he was released because the charges were dropped because he didn't do it. But at that time, I'm just a young child in a courtroom with my mom and my auntie and

“I see the person that I think is the pinnacle of being cool, the pinnacle of being a man.”

Yeah, all the girls exactly. And now I see tears coming out of your face and I've been indoctrinated that man don't cry. Right. So just don't cry. You've been teased.

Exactly. For crying. Yeah. And now I see you crying and so Kudos warned me that if I keep thinking the one thinking and acting the way I'm acting, I'm going to get locked up.

And so that first arrest, sitting in the back of that bus, and they take us to a whole

another town. That's about an hour and a half away from Clarksville to this juvenile facility. And so it's a long drive for somebody that just got arrested, you're like, "God damn, I just got caught." Now only do I get caught.

What is going to happen next? Really quick.

“Did you have moments of dramatic shifts between feeling like a fully fledged adult?”

And then all of a sudden going, "Oh my God, I'm a fucking kid, like feeling like a kid." I would imagine, like, sling and dope, getting paid, you're feeling like a man going shop and that bus ride, you're like, "Oh, it wasn't the bus ride, it was the ankle monitor." When they finally let me go a month and a half later, they wouldn't let me go unless I had somebody to live with.

Another moment where Mickey comes in the picture and allows me to live with him and living with Mickey was being a child again and I couldn't be a child, especially not to a man that I feel like you ain't nothing any way. You are something and I appreciate your attempts because I haven't forgot the past attempts and I'm appreciating this attempt.

But I'm a man now and he ain't trying to hear that in the court and trying to hear that. You're so fucked up at this point, dude. I mean, you're just so fucked up. You're trying to make sense of everything and you're trying to be a man. You're disappointed in him and you love him and you feel heartbroken that he didn't turn

up to be wanting him to be, but that'll now he's here and so you're both appreciative and judgmental. Yeah. It's a mass. Fast forward to 2010, you're 22, there's a sting operation and they arrest 30 people.

other three was charged, but they agreed to cooperate too and they just got less charges

than everybody. But yes, a lot of us, you get arrested and then you have four years before your trial

“starts and say, I know, also what did you have on you like, what did you have on you?”

I had no drugs on me, but no drug. No, I had a gun. I had a loaded 9mm ruler and I had $11,000 within my reach. So technically, I came with the money. There's no, you know, I've been convicted of the passes to pass, so I brought the money and

the guy was getting my drugs from. He had the drugs. Let me tell the story quickly. Yeah. He's the target.

So they have been tapping his phones, they have been wanting him for years.

They've been knowing who he was, he actually had beat a federal case.

Roughly a decade before. This particular night cases over with. They like, we got enough evidence. We've been arrested as, but the phones are tapped and I call, and they like, we don't know who this is.

And it sounds like they're trying to do a drug deal. Let's let them meet. We think they're trying to do a drug deal. They let us meet and wear the store, convenient store, gas station, and they jump out. When they jump out, I have the money, but I throw it under the car and I have my gun inside

my car and inside his car. He has roughly 15 ounces. So yes, they charged me with attempted possession, charged me with the conspiracy, and then charged me with drugs in the school zone, because it was a little alternative school.

It's not even a real school, and it wasn't even in operation anymore.

It still had its charter, and the charter was for that address. Like when we really gotten the trial and really dug through the weeds, I got four charges out together. I fell in with a file on the conspiracy, attempted possession of the drugs and the drugs in the school zone.

“The four-year stint before your trial, when do you discover the library at the county jail?”

So from the moment, the handcuffs got put on me, I knew that I was through. I knew that I wanted to change, because it had been too much pain. I'm like, this has to stop. My life has been fucked up, and I don't know what I'm doing, I don't know what God got installed for me.

By this time, I am in existential crisis. I'm like, this is crazy. There's no end of the world. My life has been this messed up. I've had to live with no electricity, running water, no parents, my cousin got murdered, and

I pulled up to the crime scene while I didn't pull up crowd when driving on my child. But, and then my brother died by suicide, I didn't have to find him. I have to navigate, not stepping in his brains, but also getting help. I am now getting arrested by the FBI and the DEA, I'm saying these jackets that usually you only see on movies.

Yeah, exactly. So I'm like, what happened? Is that like, like, this is unreal, like this can't be true, like how can one person's life be this crazy? Yeah, and I guess probably from the outside, a lot of people might say their knee jerk reaction

might be like, well, of course, what did you think? It's kind of shocking how much you can ignore stuff until the rents do. When that happens, you can both be going, like, oh, yeah, this makes sense, but also, like, oh, wow, we're here. Exactly.

Think about the amount of things you just said that weren't choices at all, like, the parents you're born into, the house you're born into, the not having electricity, like, these aren't decisions you're a kid, you're just like being drug along surviving. It's so unfair. And then once the cuffs got put on me, I'm like, okay, let me figure something out.

And so I reverse engineered, and I started with my mother's choices, then I went to my choices, then I went to America's decisions, which led me to having certain thoughts, but I'm still not getting the answers, but I got the questions. Really quick. Was the question, like, how did this happen?

Is this happening to everybody? If it's not happening to everybody, why is it happening to me? What system is in place that allowed this to happen to me and everyone else? That's a great way to paraphrase it, but I will admit, like, any other human being.

“I'm being so subjective, like, nobody else's life is this hard.”

Not in America. I'm knowing people go through other things in every part of the world of America, every other country. But at that time, I'm being so subject to, I'm like, ain't no way. Ain't no way.

My life is this hard. What is going on? No, no. Yeah. I've got an explanation for that.

Thank you. I had all these questions, and walking into that county jail library, I'm going into it, because we have to, they're searching us, even though we're incarcerated, even though we're locked up, you still are subjected to certain treatment that people wouldn't expect. They expected because they hear stories, and like, okay, this is inhumane, this is mistreatment

blah, blah, blah, blah, but they wouldn't expect it, like, really, like, what do you

Like, unless you bring it, how does it interact with facility?

“That is an ultimate reality, but I see on the board a Bible verse that has always resonated”

with me. And I happen to look up after reading the Bible verse, which was, faith the size of a must to see, can move them out into the sea. And you know, it's different variations of the Bible, so it might be a little bit different. But I'm thinking that as I walk past it, it's on the chalkboard.

So, I'm thinking about, okay, church must have just been in there, because this saying room, the same library is what it's technically is, is also serving as church, mosque, temple, everything that is allowed in the jail is serving for that. So I'm like, okay, the last pastor wrote this, I sit down and out of nowhere, the same way that stack of books that you have right there is, color code it, all read, have

to know to some read and I'm like, what is it? And it was a set of encyclopedias, and it

embarked me on a trajectory that saved me.

Wow. Wow.

“We've heard from numerous people that their first love was the encyclopedia.”

Like, it's funny what it gateway that thing is. It's true. I mean, it holds all the answers, as you said. Exactly. Like, if we can get metaphorical about it, is it that you had such a myopic view of the world

than life, you're in such a specific thing, and to find out was it the vastness of the world and everything in it, like, what do you suppose was the romantic aspect to the encyclopedia that had you hooked? I got two quotes to answer to.

One is by Carl Sagan, he said, books are like seeds, able to lay dormant, but able

to flower in the most unpromising soul. So the books that just been sitting are collecting dust, and I was that unpromising soul that now was funneled water and nurture and cultivate something from those seeds. And then another quote is by me, I said, "memory gives humans the ability to store information and build upon that information.

“Imagination gives people the ability to envision what to do with the information and change”

and build. The former can keep you trapped with painful memories. The latter can keep you trapped, fair and future possibilities. Build encyclopedists contain so much information, so much about the world that I wanted to know was curious to know and hadn't been exposed to.

So yes, you're right. It was because so much was contained and then it had four sets. I only noticed the red one initially, because red is what it serves is. It's a stimulant. It catches your attention.

And since when LA, I got to give the name drop, you know, the late Great Nipsy Russell was a crib through and through was unapologetic about it, but he made sure red was on his logo because he understood the power of the color. So the red encyclopedists caught my attention, but they had a set that was black in a set that was green.

So safe answers I'm curious about zoning and housing. I'm going to look up in the red encyclopedists, the black encyclopedists, and the green encyclopedists housing policies in LA, or whatever, I might be interested in and compare in contrast the three different encyclopedists. Because they were different brands, exactly.

So I definitely was yearning to be a part of a different group. Like right now, I am the iconoclast, I am the abnormal, the one that is genomic, exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, because clearly I'm not white, clearly I didn't come from the suburbs. Clearly I don't fit what I match in some ways. Most people when they see me, I break out of stereotypes.

When you think of street guy from the ghetto, a drug dealer, a gangster, a gangbanger, any of the certain images popping your head. Yeah, every movie we see exactly, and I don't fit them. I fit the suburban guy that has been around white people all his life, that has money. That's assimilated.

Exactly. Some people would say, he talked white, you know, everybody talks white, because our language comes from England. Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Oh, no, unless you're a speaker, they're different languages, I won't realize, but that is the, the fantasies and the misconceptions that come with not fit in a certain period. I'm not fit in a certain model. Needless to say, you take a real fucking journey for those four years of education, and then there's this crazy life to find a moment you have, which is, you're now, it's four years

later, you're going to get sentenced. You walk into that courtroom knowing what you're up against, which is they have now added in that four years, they've decided to kind of upgrade to a three strikes, which for people who don't know about mandatory sendencing federal three strike law, if you've got

no parole. Yeah.

Life means life or life means 20 years.

Now, life means staying this little sailed into you die until we pronounce you deceased, you will not lead a custody of the BOP.

“Okay, so you know, without question, that's what you're about to hear on that day.”

Yeah. And you have been advised not to speak by several people, but then the judge asks you, if you'd like to say anything, what is that speech? That speech is, can you imagine a child that has been dumped into a swamp, and he's been told to get out of this swamp, and then by the time he makes it to civilization and walks

into a restaurant, he's muddy, he's dirty, he's stinking, and everybody in the restaurant looks at him as if he's done something wrong and reprimand him and say, get out of my restaurant, you can't come here like that. We got a dress code, supposed to follow the strict dress code. And so I just want everybody to see me as a human being, so not only did I speak about

what I had endured, but I spoke about possibility. I told them, look at everything I have been doing since I got arrested. I've been studious with my time, taking copious notes, just voiraciously reading, anything I can get my hands on, but not just consuming information, but actually critically thinking. Actually letting myself ask another question on top of a question and letting the answer

from that be something that adjusts my behavior. So I've been practicing cognitive behavior therapy on my own, and this inhumane environment. I've been in here in this tiny room with these other people that I don't know, and having to deal with them in a nonsense, deal with the pain of my memories, and deal with what I know the future is going to be, and still believing that, hey, I can be something different

and I'm going to be something different. And so I'm choosing to take in this information and let it adjust me, and as it's just to me, give me a chance, give me the possibility to be back with humanity. See the humanity in me, and give me a chance to be back in society. And I'm knowing that's nothing to happen right then and there, but I'm just hoping that

when it's all said and done, the record would reflect that we are in a throwaway asset. Now I love it.

“And all that four years of reading had you read Victor Frankles book?”

Yes, sir. Because the story is so parallel, for people who don't know the Victor Frankle story, he was in a concentration camp, and he said, it occurred to him at some point that they can own your body. They can take away all your autonomy of your body, but they can't have your mind.

Exactly. And you get to have some control over how you process and deal with even the worst scenario, and they're in life your remaining freedom. Exactly. I love the existentialists.

I love Victor Frankle for one, what he actually went through, and the measurement of

the man is one of my top reason, he basically was like, you know, for the person that

knows the why, he would figure out the house, sometime away, you know what I'm saying? You know, you want to survive? You would figure it out. No matter if you've been a star, beat, or whatever, but I also love James Allen, Nietzsche, Dostoevsky, and even though they were racist, high-decker, and haigle, I'm going to shout

out high-decker and haigle, I got to also acknowledge they believe a person like me

“didn't have the capacity to think in a way I think.”

So yeah, I have figured out that it's power within choice, and I understood that the way I think affects the way I choose. So by that time, I realized all the powers within you. You can choose and how you think affects how you choose. And so all the powers within you, no matter what, these outside circumstances are, you

know, that's external. The pen tissue to the internal, you know, know that yourself, and you will be able to succeed, you will be able to excel. I had my mind make it up, that with every choice was going to reflect a different person, and not only a different person, but somebody that was worthy of being a part of society. Yeah.

Stay tuned for our share expert if you dare. So this speech is so moving that the federal judge, Kevin Sharp, who had been appointed by Clinton, I think. Obama. Obama.

Not immediately, but he's already not loving mandatory sentencing. He is very moved by you, he does not like having to dull out that sentence.

And ultimately, this event, along with I'm sure other weight on his conscious, gets him to

sentencing. What other things start happening that paved the way for your release? Let me put in the context, a lot of people don't realize this man had to get appointed by a president, like you said, you pointed out, Obama appointed him.

“But not only that, you have to get confirmed by Congress.”

So he jumped through a lot of hoops and hurdles to even get this job. And he's like, you know what, I can't live with myself. And they can keep that job for forever, until they die over time.

So I just wanted to make sure I point that out because I will always forever love, Kevin

makes short. That was a very courageous and brave act of him. And I'll forever admire and revered him and love him. I mean, the integrity to do something like that. Exactly. Because like you have security, you know this paycheck is coming.

Exactly. You know the ultimate security blanket. Exactly. Exactly. And prestige.

And the sense of dignity that comes from identity, he was more than people that's like, you know, the value of me is not tied up in that identity of being a judge. The dignity is tied up in me, knowing that I have the power to choose. And with my choice, I'm going to choose the resigned and speak out against what's going on.

So now only did that lead to the freedom, but the media is a very powerful tool. One of the journalists sent the article of Judge Sharp resigned and then speaking about him wanting to get me released to attorney in Dallas, Texas named Brittany K. on it, Brittany was a corporate attorney that was working on billion dollar deals by day and at night, working pro bono for free to help people that was incarcerated for drug

charges. And then on the weekends, she was taken key as to go visit their mother's in prison. What's wrong with her? Exactly. She just doing so much of a man.

Exactly. Exactly. That's why hard to trust that person. And that's exactly how I said, I was in disbelief when I heard him resigning.

“And I thought like you said, I was like, what has he been of it?”

Well, I was like, I've never seen nobody do this.

I've never seen nobody say I'm going to care about the parent that's addicted to drugs or selling drugs and the child that's affected by their incarceration. While working my nine of five, so Brittany blew me away meeting her. Monica, they're engaged. I love her.

I love her. You've gotten too good at your job. It's your come out later, but it's getting really land with her in that moment. She just heard what an angel she is. And this was a time for me to plug.

You can read her book, a knocking midnight where she speaks so in. I would have gathered she's free 77 of us to have life sentences for drugs. Nonviolent offenses in federal prison for drugs. How soon do you guys start falling love? Don't fucking lie for it.

Immediately. Oh, I fell in love as soon as I heard about it.

It's been a wonderful attorney who cares about me.

I'm like, what?

“Like I say, I never met somebody so kind.”

And I come from a neighborhood where everybody's trying to get over on the next person. So I had been spending my whole life looking for unconditional love. I didn't know I had it with Big Mama. I didn't know I had it with different people that was loving in the way that they knew how to look for her. You know, my brother exactly.

So, but at the time of meeting Brittany, I'm just blown away and I'm smitten immediately. But she was very professional. Yeah, but you got a good smile. I'll wear it. Thank you.

You're going to see that smile so many times. Thank you, Dad. It's funny, though, because everybody think I got the news and I don't. The only truth that's faking my mouth is this front one. I broke it when I was 10.

And I was so embarrassed for the next three years that I wouldn't even talk with her. Covering my mouth. I wouldn't laugh without covering my mouth. And Mickey found out and he took me to the dentist and got my two fix. Yeah.

But by this time, I'm intoxicated with the streets. So I'm also selling drugs and so then I got some gold teeth. But they was the pull outs. I wouldn't go to the mountain and spend 50 hours. They was 150 or two.

Yeah. But I said that because he complimented my smile. Yeah. Everybody think I got the news. But literally, only one, two for my mouth is fake.

Yeah. In the midst of all this, you're getting media attention. And you have a lawyer now. You have Kevin working on your behalf in some way. The fight for freedom has begun.

You have one particular moment where you had to put in a clemency request and you really thought this was going to be the one. Yeah. Yeah. I was laying our sleep in the unit manager.

Can you say, young? And immediately, my mind kicked in. I'm like, this is it. This is it. I'm finagated.

I'm finagated. Because Obama has started to clemency initiative.

Release the most people through executive presidential clemency ever. He actually, at the time, have released more people through clemency. Then every president combined. Wow.

And so I'm like, okay, I'm finagated. And I'll get it. Just sharp speaking about me. Other articles are speaking about me. I'm like, ain't no way he ain't heard about me.

But then once the union manager told me, he got denied. And everything came crashing down. And I would say, I have enough common sense. And enough empathy to say, Obama's not reading. Nothing himself.

He has so many people. Everything has to go through before it touches him. I was probably denied 10 people before he read or heard anything.

And so I never looked at it and took it personally.

Because I understand the chain of command. But it's uniquely heartbreaking when you let hope enter the scene. Like, hope is this wonderful power. And it's also so dangerous. It is intoxicating.

“And I think it's a drug that we all should be taking.”

So former federal reserve chairman, AlltheBurn said, hope is the greatest factor of the economy. If people don't believe it to get better, they will never get up and try. And so I was getting up every single day and trying

despite having two life sentences. I was never going to lose it. I give people the analogy. They'd be like, you had to believe that you was going to die. And I'm like, no, they were like, okay, well,

if you didn't think you was going to die, you at least thought you was going to do 30 years. I was like, no, just the way you wake up. And you go to the bathroom and pee. When you're walking across that floor,

that floor can collapse. If you live in a house or you live in an apartment, that floor is not directly on the ground. It can collapse. Even if it's on the ground,

it can follow through. But you don't think that you have faith. And you believe that this floor is going to carry me to the rest room. So I can pee.

And that's how it was. I woke up every day and I'm like,

“I'm going to make decisions that's going to carry me”

to my release date. Whenever that may come. And so you write that hope it came in. And that hope can also let you down,

but I was never going to stop having hope.

So then COVID happens. You think you're already experiencing a terrible situation. But then obviously now solitary confinement starts entering the equation. To make the equation look worse than what it is.

Let me really put in a context for you. By this time, Brittany has introduced me to Kim Kardashian. And so now only do I have the most famous woman in the world speaking out on my behalf. Brittany had already been to the White House once

with another advocate of my dog decent. And then also a second time with another advocate of my Mark Holden, who used to be general counsel for the Koch industries. And then Kim enters the picture. Koch brothers are Coca-Cola.

Koch brothers. Everything's all complicated. Yeah. I know it's your thinking. And I think they need to mark the great man.

Well, there's this incredible attorney here since past.

This attorney and I got to have dinner with him one time.

Fascinating dude. A right wing guy. He tried the case in federal court to get citizens united pass, which is a terrible bit of legislation. He also was the lawyer that got doma overturned in a lot of gay marriages.

You know, like, wow, man. People are complicated. I was just like, that humans are complicated. Yeah. You can't write people off because you don't know.

Exactly. Exactly. Opportunities come. What you say since we're on the topic,

“that's why the whole, I don't like you because you're a Democrat.”

I don't like you because you're a Republican. I don't like you because you're gay. Like that sounds crazy as hell to me. But to each zone. Well, that's a luxury of people who don't have anything real on their plate.

If I can be honest with you, if you're trying to get out of a place, Renee Brown said this is like during the Katrina floods. People were in a boat and they were holding their hand out to pull someone in the boat. No one said, oh, hold on. Aren't you a liberal or a conservative?

Exactly. Because something real has happened. Thank you. Yeah. And so you're, you know, something real.

You're right. And I think to be so spun out about this other shit is a whole luxury. And almost says you got really no problems going on. I'm going to ignore the humanity being you because you believe in. Because you grew up in the town you grew up in, dude.

I can look at the zip code you're born in. I can tell a 85% accuracy what you think. Oh, yeah. We all think we've come to this independently. Yeah.

Through lots of scrutiny. Yeah. But back to the story. I'm being not only shipped to a new maximum security prison whose nickname is Bloody Beaumont. Doesn't sound very promising.

I've just had my new attorney have three different meetings at the White House about me. The most famous woman in the world tweeting and posting about me. A judge who sentenced me speaking out about me. And then other advocates that are very prominent in influential. So I'm thinking release is on the horizon.

But it wasn't. I had to go to Bloody Beaumont and not only was Beaumont what his name is.

But Brittany won a very rare post-conviction motion.

“A 2255 was a habeas corpus petition and she wanted.”

She basically demonstrated your counsel is insufficient.

Exactly. Exactly. The lawyer who represented me at trial had admitted she didn't listen to all the wire taps. And then had she listened to all the wire taps. She would have known the weight of the evidence against me.

And she was willing to admit this and we really appreciate her for doing this. I love how few resignment you carry. Yeah. Yeah. I appreciate her for that.

Her admitting this. It was a part of Brittany's motion. And less than 5% of these have ever been granted in American history. And so Brittany got my sentence reduced from life to 14 years. But I still had another year and a half.

And like he said, COVID has hit. So now only as a COVID, I've been at a violent prison. There's been lockdown because of violence.

“But then now we're locked down because of a rare contagious pandemic.”

That's going on on top of that. Okay, Chris, you don't have life no more. You're not maximum security no more. You're actually camp status. But what I'm going to send you to a camp even though it's right across the parking lot.

COVID is going on, which is going to throw you in the hole. So they put me in the hole. And the hole is why we call it that. It is literally the jail inside the prison. And it is very torturous.

You can't see outside as no windows or nothing. You can't have commentary. And unfortunately for me, because I was technically a different security level, I couldn't have a celly. And they put me in the only single man cell that had.

And it was flooded. And so literally it's like three inches of water in this cell. Exactly. But dedication to termination and discipline had got me where I was at. So I refused to give up my strict regimen in routine, which was waking up.

I'm going to defecate clean myself up. Work out at our workout, clean myself up and then read. And so I'm doing push ups in this flooded cell. Oh my God. Not knowing I'm getting myself sick.

I'm figuring I'm going to get sick, but I can't stop my routine because it's high. Get through the days. You articulate it is psychologically dangerous to be isolated like that. You've been in some journeys in your head. I'm sure that I can't really relate to.

Yeah. That's actually why I loved him.

That's so much when I finally read it.

When I finally read at Hamlet, I happen to be in the holes. A different time for a different scenario. And that to be or not to be. I bounced it around for what it could mean or not mean so many different ways. And so many different times for so many different days while I was going through that extent of being in the hole.

I really think he was questioning. Am I a man or am I a coward, am I a killer? Am I not a killer? Should I be a killer? Should I kill myself?

Should I kill my uncle? You know, the question can be perceived in so many different angles in different ways.

“And you decide to start writing this memoir in the area?”

Yes, I was in the hole. And just like speaking in my sentence and speech, I wanted to record to reflect my humanity. And so no record can reflect it better than my own words. Yeah.

So then lo and behold kind of shockingly. Despite thinking you have probably four more years because your sentence has been reduced to 14 years. At 10 years in, how do we get to Trump? How does that final push happen? Through the people closest to him.

Miss Alice Marie Johnson, who Kim had advocated for before me. Ivanka. Jared. So despite that family and what anybody might think of them, it was some people, a part of that family that really spoke up in my favor.

And I really appreciate them. Look at Miss Alice now.

Miss Alice now is the first part in Zarr in American history.

Despite serving 22 years herself. And then getting released. And so yes, that last push effort was by the people closest to him. They was like, you know, you've been told about this case. We know about this case and you're finna leave.

And why not use the power that only the president has. Literally only the president of the United States of America could put that pin to that paper. And say, okay, this is completely forgiven. Let them go. Yeah. Where is the exact moment? I'm sure it's etched in your mind where you hear the news. I can tell you play by play.

Yeah. I'm in a better sale. I just got doing doing my workout. Just took my shower and I'm hungry. I am laying in the bed cold and hungry and waiting on the tray because there's no commentary in the whole. But we know what time of day they feed and I am waiting on lunch. I need to stay occupied to keep from thinking about how hungry I am.

So I pick up the most recent printouts that Brittany has sent me because I had asked her for specifically something I wanted to read about. And she sent it to me. It was about gene editing to be exact.

Which by the way, that's the solution for sickle cells. It is and it isn't because I have the SE version if you remember it the beginning of the conversation right now because they're only in the trial stages and it's so expensive.

It's two to three million dollars per treatment.

They are only doing trial phases with the SS version and not the SE version Roger. Despite my bones deteriorating, me having artificial hips need artificial shoulders and my tailbone deteriorating too. I don't have that particular version. So I don't meet the criteria today. But you may be one day.

But there was no technology that was even going to spell any sickle cell until that. And to fully put in the context, it's excruciatingly painful. And for decades, people have stereotyped and judged. People with sickle cell and email believe in. They're just trying to get high. They just won't pay medicine. They're drug seekers.

If some doctors have actually phrased it. And that is not the case. They're dealing with a level of pain that most people couldn't fathom. Couldn't even begin to believe if you've ever been shot or felt a tattoo or been hit by a car like multiply that. It might sound outrageous, but multiply that pain. And that is a sickle cell crisis. And over your whole body.

Thank you. Exactly. Exactly. Not a cute to anyone's place. You could attempt to ignore or distract from. So I'm sending her reading about this.

“And as you can only imagine, wondering one day will I get it?”

Will I be able to get my sickle cell eliminated? And I'm letting her read in Lieutenant Franks.

If you're listening to this, he's going to laugh.

And so I remember it like it yesterday. But Lieutenant Franks is a Lieutenant at USP Beaumont. And he's a prankster. Jokes are for lack of a better word. He's a hard ass. He's one of the ones that's quick to lock you up.

But he's also one of the ones that wants to crack jokes. If you can only imagine a person like this. So he came to my door. And immediately, I can tell he's like in a jovial mood. And he's like a young.

You want to go home? I'm like, what's up, Franks, man? Don't play with me. I don't play with you. You know what I'm saying?

I show you respect. Exactly. Take your jokes over here. I'm hungry. What a crazy guy.

I'm like, what a crazy guy. So he laugh. And he's like, now I'm serious. You want to go home? I'm like friends.

Who don't want to go home? Every person in his prison. Wants to go home. Including y'all.

“That's getting ready to go home with your shift in.”

And you want to go home right now too. And he's like, well, come on. I'm like gone, Franks. And he laugh again. And he stuck the key in the door.

So when he stuck the key in the door, I'm like, this something that can get him fired. He played that hard. You know what I'm saying? Yeah.

And he turned it. I said, oh, shit. I jumped up out the bed. And so I go to the door. He said, you know, you got a cuff up.

I said, you serious. Some serious, man. You're going to go home. Man, I heard him turn around. I couldn't believe it.

I get to shaking a little bit. So I go and cuff up. But I still don't know what's going on. And then when they take me into office. And they say, you got to sign this.

And when I look down to paper, I see that presidential seal is gold shining on the paper. And then I see that D in that T. I mean, I was ecstatic. I was elated.

I couldn't believe it. I'm like, I thought this was over with. You know what I'm saying? They didn't let me go.

“Brittany had went to the United States White House.”

Three times in the year 2018. And I know for a fact my name was brought up all three times. Not to mention Kim bringing up my name. Not to mention Judge Sharp bringing up my name. And all the other advocates.

Here it is. January 20, 2021. And I'm looking down at a paper that is telling me to release me immediately. And I was like, man, nervous system. Oh, Max.

Oh, shit. Yeah. That feeling of your entire life, maybe.

I will admit I've never felt a high like that.

And I've only tried a few drugs. Yeah. But you know, no XC, no marijuana, no Remy Martin could make me feel how I felt at that moment. And when I truly walked out the doors. Like when I really felt that fresh air on my face and really saw Brittany standing in

a parking lot to be fair. I'm feeling nothing but happiness at this moment. But Brittany helped me put everything into the equation as we're driving. She was telling me process it all the way. And I'm like, what you mean?

Like, I'm smiling. I'm happy. I feel good. She was like, but that's the thing. Like, it's a range of emotions.

And don't run from embrace them all. And she said, do you want hear some music? She know how much I love music. I said, yeah. And she told the driver to cut on a song.

She knew I had always said I wanted to hear when I get released. And it was a little boosty. It's true soldier. And the whole song that's rapping about people in prison. It made last all crying.

And I'm not telling by just a few tears down my face. I'm telling by that gasman for earth. It's not coming up. Yeah. It's an nervous system letting down.

It's like years. Yes. Later. Oh. And it wasn't just a cry for me.

She had died while I was locked up.

It was a cry for Mickey. He had died while I was locked up. It was a cry for my granddaughter. He had died while I was locked up.

“It was a cry for a few homeboys that got murdered while I was locked up.”

And it was a cry for the people I had to leave behind. It was so many people. I had just spent this decade with that I love and revering. Look at like friends and family now. And they still have life sentences 35 years, 40 years.

And I'm like. Now I wish I could take you out with me. Yeah. I've wrestled because I'm like. It's people that's incarcerated.

They didn't do nothing. But have people lie on them. Whether it be the police officer or witness. And I did sell dope. Oh, if and the bus about it.

I tried to sell as much crack and cocaine. I could get sold. And I know that's destructive. And I accepted that I was causing harm. But I'm also getting show empathy, sympathy, compassion.

So I had to wrestle a little bit because that dynamic of idea do some. But I didn't do none worthy of killing me. Like literally I have a deaf sentence. Like I am supposed to stay in this cage until I'm pronounced deceased. That is crazy.

It's crazy.

“So that's what helped me get over it too.”

Because I'm like, I didn't do nothing worthy of dying. Brian Stephenson said that every person is worth more than the worst thing they've ever done. Or something like that might be butchering this quote. But I know people that have murdered people in the last time. And I gave someone something they wanted.

True enough that substance was destructive. But you know, we didn't lock John Pimmerton up. You know, he put cocaine and Coca-Cola for decades.

And you know, Albert Neiman, he was the first to isolate it.

This is a plant that has been existing on Earth for a long time. I didn't create cocaine and I didn't bring no cocaine to this country. I was blessed to get that level of empathy, sympathy and compassion shown to me. So you pretty immediately enroll at Southern Methodist. How soon before you enroll there?

I didn't enroll there into 2023. I started at Dallas community college because I'm a non-traditional student. So basically, I'm above the age and then I became a transfer student once SMU accepted me. So was that Dallas community college? I got enough credits were technically I can't transfer.

But I got to get accepted. And so when SMU milled that acceptance letter, it was exciting. That was 2023. I think of you getting out of there as is very similar also to returning from Vietnam. Or it's like the arousal setting in there.

The Spidey senses the amount of attention you got to be paying to everything going on.

“Did you feel a sense of like after the elation pass and now you're in school?”

Did you wrestle with boredom at all? Like you're feeling dead in the lack of stakes? So you know boredom is a state of mind. I know you know that.

And so I never let myself embrace that.

The stimuli is different though. I agree with you and that. And so it was definitely times where I'm in school and I'm like I hate standardized education. And there's no disrespect to anybody that plays a part of that system. That is just me knowing that like right now I'm reading,

shop, laken and everything he propagated about his belief of the boredom and not. And how the consciousness is the real, the imaginary and symbolic. And all of that comes together to make us who we are. But within that, as I'm reading it, it's going to mention somebody else he learned from. Or it's going to mention something that stimulated him more.

Made him think of something. I'm going to stop and go look at that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I love the bread crumbs. Exactly.

Yeah. But standardized education doesn't want you to do that. Yeah. It wants you to memorize what we just told you to memorize. And choose to correct answer on this test.

It was plenty of times where I was annoyed and it was hard. But I really met walking across that stage this year and made 16 to 126. But beyond walking across the stage, the love and support SMU showed me. Like SMU really once they found out about my story, they were proud to have you. Yes.

They showed me that. And I appreciate it. Yeah. I wouldn't expect it. Yeah, that's beautiful.

What's your major in economics and public policy? The two things that affect the middle most. Yeah. Being poor and the system set up that everybody needs to operate by. And if you don't operate, but you will pay the consequences.

Yeah. I forgot one part that was my favorite when he gets out of prison. Kevin Sharp is there. Yeah. And you guys have this beautiful heart.

You haven't seen each other since the courtroom. Yeah. Yeah. I hadn't seen Judge Sharp since he had to tell me I'm going to do a life sentence in prison. Next time he's seeing him, he's hugging you.

Now only hugging me, but crying, this man's serious. Like he really was moved by speaking to me, by interacting with me and he really wanted me free. And he showed me that and I really appreciate it there. You know, the big headline of your life, which I hope you feel is like you're so worthy

of love. Yeah. You're so easy to love. A lot of people love you and want to love you. You said that because Brittany had an event that night of my graduation and that is what

I spoke about.

lead process and imagine despite any circumstance to be able to have this level of cognition and steal see some different despite what's around you. But I got on stage and I spoke about unconditional love because I didn't realize it and fully process it, but I had been yearning for it, had been in search of it, had made

terrible decisions, hoping I was finna get it reciprocated to me and finally got it shown to me

when I went in search for it. Yeah. Oh, how beautiful. Oh, my God. So inspiring.

And there's just so many people still in there. And I hope Congress and I hope President Trump and I hope anybody that has the power specifically that person and that group realizes that these are human beings acknowledged a humanity. This system is not real, bellitative.

That system is punitive. Yes, I know. If you just want to punish somebody and harm somebody, you're cruel. I don't care what you say. That's cruel.

It is.

“But if you want to help somebody acknowledge the power you have and help them and that system”

can be completely some different. We have other countries doing it totally different. Yeah. And we have the technology where we can do it different.

I mean, just on Prima Facial, there's no way we can have two million human beings sitting

in cement boxes and think, yeah, we figured this out. Preach. We're now in this. There's no fucking way to do it. Exactly.

We're talking about nearly 1% of the populations in prison is fucking bonkers. And you look at the rest of the world and there's no one's close to that. Exactly. And that's because it's a business. Yeah, business, slash, controlling, undesirable, so-so economic people.

Go into it, Dex. Let's put the white trash in there. Let's put the black folks in there. Let's put everyone that we'd rather not deal with or see or have to. Yeah.

Chris, you're awesome. Dude, I'm really glad I got to meet you on this trip on planet earth. You're so exceptional. The book is called The wound is where the light enters. It'll be August 4th.

It's a beautiful read.

“I hope everyone reads the book, delight meeting you, the luck with everything.”

Thank you. I appreciate you. Oh, we should say we need some consulting. Coherence consulting is the company you want. Yeah.

Thank you. What did you consult on? Business managed me.

But technically, I want to speak on everything with critical infrastructure.

It's not just an industry. It is the whole operating system that civilisation is running on. So it'll span everything from civil engineering to cyber security. Wonderful. Chris, be well.

This is great. Thank you, sir. Thank you. He is at our care. Expert, buddy makes mistakes all the time.

Thank God my secretary. He's got a little help. The facts. I have an update. Oh, wonderful.

So remember the episode where it was a fact check where I talked about being in Venice and going into a store and feeling like the lady was rude to me. Yeah, we had a little post story debate about whether or not you want people to have that power review or that was my take. Right.

So we had a debate on the fact check. And then it came up again on actually today's episode that came out. Mark brackets episode. Uh-huh. That's when we talk about it publicly.

Uh-huh. And I edited that episode in the morning. And that afternoon on it and I went to Venice. Uh-huh. So it's weird scent.

Yeah. We're in Venice. We're having fun walking, eating. And then we brought you out there again for people don't live here. That's like a commitment to go to Venice.

It is. It is. We decided to have a Westside day.

“You have to like, you know, make the declaration.”

We didn't have a facial appointment or anything like that. Just let's go have a Westside day. We're going to have a Westside day. Yeah. One of my favorite restaurants.

It's called the tasting kitchen. Uh-huh. Uh-huh. It is. Uh-huh.

Uh-huh. It is. Close. It's been closed for years. And it just reopened.

Ding, ding, ding, earmark. Okay. It just reopened. Which was so exciting. Yeah.

It notoriously had my favorite cocktail in the entire city called a Blue Monday. Originally, it doesn't happen. Okay. Um, but anyway, so we made a reservation at the tasting kitchen and we just popped around. It was very fun.

But we walked by that store. Okay. And I thought, let's go in. Uh-huh. Okay.

So we went in, the same lady. Same lady. Yes. Okay. And I had a lovely experience.

And she helped me try it. I let her help me try on Jesus.

Yeah. Yes.

And so this time, I just asked her.

I said, "Do you have anything in this size?" Yeah. And then she looked. I do think her personality is specific. Uh-huh.

Yeah. But we became great friends. Uh-huh. And I understood her more. Uh-huh.

Uh-huh. Uh-huh. And I left and I was healed. Did you see, yeah, this woman just has a very specific way of doing everything. Yeah, she wasn't personal.

She's trapped in her own routine. Yes. I mean, I would say she's not a gentle type. Yeah, yeah, right. And it's just her personality.

Uh-huh. And so she wasn't looking down on me. Right. She just was, you weren't getting with the system. Yeah.

But you know, I do have a weird, I do have a weird thing that goes on in those situations. Where I do think I feel like, okay, I got a like show that I belong. Like I got a buy stuff.

“I, you know, I think I do get in a weird zone where it's like, or start talking to them”

about fashion and let them know like, I'm, I am hip to everything. Yeah. Yeah, kind, or yeah, but more, I think I hate to say this, but this is the truth. I actually think it's more about the spending, like, you're not wasting your time on me. Right, right.

And so I did buy a lot. Um, and I mean, it was great products. Uh-huh. Uh, but you can afford to have shitty bedside manner if your products are phenomenal. Like if you got so, so merch, you better put on all the smiles and frills.

Yeah. I guess that's true. I prefer, you can, you can, it's like a prick on restaurant tour in New York.

So you can only do that if you got soup that's incredible.

The soup, not see. That's a sign for breakfast. Classic. Yeah. Um, yeah.

I just, you can be both, you know. Yeah. I'm healed. Close the loop on that. Oh, great.

That's a good update. So that was good. That was good. And it was very sim, because I had just listened to it. Yeah, that is.

Um, the ding ding ding is the center Ramadan's reopening. I saw. I could not.

“I don't know if that means the whole arc lights back online.”

I'm gonna send it to you. Did you? Yeah, because you said that buys me more time. It buys me more time. It buys me more time.

You said something like that buys me like. Oh, wait now. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

In fact, I could retire and live in LA if arc light was still functioning.

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I'm going to ask somebody else to help me.

Anywho, that was an interesting counter. These luxury stores are a minefield. They are. I have a dangerous thing that occurred to me while I was listening to the story. Again, it's just very, very bizarre for a 38-year-old to be able to be in that shop.

“I mean, if I put on a graph for you with Americans make it, what age?”

Of course. It's really, really, it's an anomaly. I would say for anyone to walk into that store at any age. Sure. But of the total number of millionaires in America, a very, very, very small percentage of them are below 40.

The vast majority are above 40 because it takes a lifetime to accrue that. Sure, sure. I just are industry so different. Of course, I understand that happens. But what I'm saying is, if you acknowledge that you're going to be an anomaly period,

that's just the reality of the situation. You're an anomaly. Yeah, yes. In the face of this anomaly, if I was a salesperson, I would start thinking of, like, well, how does this person have this much money at this age?

I would be very interested in what they did for a list. Sure. And if I didn't ask them what they did for a living. My reigning theories, if I didn't recognize them from TV, would be their either a trust fund person.

You might end there. You know, I might go like, oh, they have this person's rich from their family. Yes. Here's my provocative, dangerous question. Okay.

What's preferable to you? Uh-huh.

“The salesperson doesn't think you have the money to be there.”

Uh-huh. Or the salesperson who thinks, she must have been a Saudi. She must have been a Saudi. She's Lebanese royal. Well, now I'm going to Saudi because you're not white.

You live in LA and a lot of Saudis live here. Let's just say they went, like, oh, yeah, she's like, she's a Saudi. Is that preferable to you than she has no money. She hasn't belong here. Yes.

It is. Okay. Yeah, it was just curious. Yeah. Um.

Because-- I don't know why it crossed my mind. Maybe they thought I was a Hollywood actor. Oh. Yeah, that could have been there.

That might have come across the theories. Um, listen. But that you would be delighted. Like, that would be-- Yeah.

I know that. But if you're just like your oil money. Okay. Okay.

“This is interesting because I don't care what they attribute your financial--”

Um, because I know the truth, which is that it's not-- It's not family money. Yeah. It's earned. Yeah.

And of course, I am grateful and I prefer having earned the money. Yeah. Then having received the money passed out. Yeah. And I have a lot of pride in receiving.

Exactly. I have a ton of pride in that. Sure. But I don't really care what they know or don't know about it. I do, right?

Um. It crosses my mind when I'm at a very nice hotel. Oh. And I've seen other people. And the other people at the hotels I go do don't look like me.

They're not covered in tattoos. They're not wearing shorts and converse.

They don't look like 12 year olds with money.

So it's just what I look like. Yep. And so I, of course, wonder what they think. Yeah. You know?

Oh, yeah. I go, oh, I look out of place. Yeah. Clearly. This is exactly what Maddie was saying.

She was like, you can't look at anyone anymore. No, anything about their finances. She's like, look at all the tech pros. If you saw them walking down the mall, you didn't know anything. No, they teach my favorite part about light.

When you're in line at Gelsen, there's four guys in front of you. Four look homeless and one of them is created a TV show. And it has $400 million. Exactly. And I think that's hilarious.

Yeah.

“And I think it's very democratizing about LA.”

It is. Like in Michigan, there's so many indicators that you display. Yeah. And then people treat people differently. Yeah.

And as you're in the polo college shirt and you have a golf bag. You know, and I hate that personally. So I prefer here, which is like, they kind of got to treat everyone at Gelsen's the same because who fucking knows if that guy created TV show? That guy's live on the streets.

We don't know. There's nothing visually that way. There's no case. Yeah. So when I'm in this situation, and I assume some of my fellow guests are wondering why this guy is at the hotel.

Uh-huh. It would be my great preference that they think I earned it. Right. And not that I was a trust fund case. Huh.

Who's been to like seven treatment centers. Because well. I mean, we're going to rule it out. That's because you have a chip on your shoulder about money. Well, big time.

I would prefer, like you were saying, I don't. I would prefer to not be the recipient of generational wealth. I have a lot more pride in the fact that. But I mean, you have a real deal. So I prefer that the people think that I made it because I have more pride in that.

Yeah.

“I think so you have a chip on your shoulder about money.”

And I have a chip on my shoulder about being lower class. I was about to say close to that. It's actually class. I think it's kind of class. It's like you're brown and you're not what the elite in America looks like.

Yeah. And there's immediate judgment. You're lower class because you're Indian or you're not you're an immigrant. Yeah. Yeah.

Literally literal status like literal immigration status. For sure. And then parallel perfectly.

The other huge difference between you and I, which is like, I'm always I was always trying to be as different as humanly possible.

Yeah. And you were trying to blend in. Yeah. So again, I like being the dude that doesn't look like he should be at the home. Yes.

I actually enjoy it. It doesn't like I don't leave going like they think I shouldn't be here. I get off. No, I don't. Yeah.

Probably an unhealthy way on the other side of it that you're experiencing at these stores. I get a real buzz out of being a trailer park kid who's there. I know. Stay tuned for our share expert if you dare. I mean, I was thinking this when I was home in Georgia the other day.

We were at I was at the town green in my town. Very cute. So cute. But the restaurant outdoor space. Big outdoor space.

Like part of the theater restaurant. Do this got to go in. Oh, yeah. It's really cute. Yeah.

And it started to build the town green started to build when I was in high school. So the amphitheater got erected.

“And then, you know, there was a soda shop and then some other things, right?”

And people, you know, they do movies or concerts and we'd all go. And it's so fun.

But you know, I always, obviously, I felt a little on the outside always.

And I think when I was back in town green and walking around and it's also changed so much. But I was like, I do think I have to acknowledge that part of the reason that I am drawn to nice things and shopping. And ironically, it's the same thing you're doing with the tattoos. Don't fuck with me.

It's the same thing. It's walking in and saying. You can't get me out. You can't get me out. I can't get me out.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And so it's all, yeah. It's all different versions of the exact same. Yeah. It's like the opposite side of the same coin.

Yeah. So I did acknowledge that that is part of what's going on. Yeah. It's like if you know you know. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

I have some if you know you know. Yeah. My hyper vector 2000, my skin burning. Oh, yeah. Did you bring it home?

I ordered a second. Oh, yeah. I was like packing on Monday.

I'm staring at this big contraption I got. Yeah.

“And I was like, hmm, I could leave it here.”

Yeah. Because it's plenty of time to do dermatological work. I'm there four times a year. So how often do I need dermatological work? But then I was like, man, if something starts to write me nuts in LA.

And I don't know how to get one or not that expensive. Get it. I should have one in LA. So I ordered one the day. I was about to pack in and then I ordered one.

Great. I love it. I have the results. I don't know what side it's on. But I burnt off this hyperplasia that was been driving me nuts.

It was like the size of a jelly bean. Oh. Not in its thickness. But in the the the diameter. Uh-huh.

And it was raised and it drove me. It was raised. Oh, yeah, yeah. I couldn't stand it. And and I zapped it off.

That was the first thing I went out there.

Did it is a gone totally in it. And today like the scabbas come off and it's like a little red. But it's flat. Wow. I'm like, damn.

Yeah, this fucking machine is awesome. I want to burn. I was laying in bed. Mm-hmm. And the door walls in front of me.

So lights coming from across my feet up to my face. Yeah. Yeah. And I can see on my chest. I'm like, oh, from this angle.

I've seen him. So much to see. So much hyperplasia that used to be wrapped off. I'm like, I got to figure out how to lay it. If this exact angle with that light and my unit.

Oh, wow. Oh, my god. Yeah. A lot is happening to come. I don't think I could have this machine in an age of not chat.

GPT. Because I have this machine. And I have the wand. Uh-huh. And it has three buttons on my home.

What are those buttons? Yeah. And so I take a picture of the wand. And they say, what are these buttons? Uh-huh.

And it's like, that's your hyper whatever the name of this device is. Uh-huh. That's a hyperbub. 2000. And that's the wand and that buttons for this and this buttons for that.

Okay. And then it goes like, do you want to know about the different settings for the different skin things this is used for? I'm like, yeah, tell me every single thing about this fucking machine. Because there is a power setting out of 20 a dial.

And you can plug it in either high or low. I'm like, I don't know. My instinct is like, let's go low. I mean, let's go high. And let's get this happening, right?

Right. So I'm glad you didn't do that. Yeah, that's for big moles.

“If you want to get rid of big moles and you don't touch the skin with the wand,”

you hold it just above it and then it arcs. And that's on high plugged into the high setting. Anyways, I'm just like, I read this whole thing. And of course, you'd imagine I have some pushback in my house about having this thing. And among my friends.

And certainly online. But my argument was like, no, I do not. I'm not claiming that I know as much as a dermatologist. I have no, I have 100th of their knowledge. But if you tested a dermatologist and I about that machine,

they would not. They would not beat me. I know every single thing about that machine now because it's learnable. And it has a fucking owner's manual. Right.

And sure, they know everything about the dermis. Yeah. They learned all that.

But ultimately, they have this fucking machine.

They got to use. And they got to learn everything about the machine and what settings it is. So I would argue, no, in this one domain of a dermatologist. I know everything about the machine. But you don't know necessarily like what shouldn't come off.

Well, OK, the immediate concern people would have, which is very legitimate, is like so often you need to get a buy-ups. You think you're getting rid of dementia. It's not cancer. Yeah.

But guess what? That's really detectable. And taking pictures of an AI is really fucking good at telling you, which ones are problematic. And in fact, in many studies, they're better than radiologists are.

Yeah. Identifying that stuff. Well, I'm going to, I'm glad. And I like that that's a pro and the AI. I'm sure the comments will be filled in this fact, Jack, about all the reasons I shouldn't use it.

And guess what, you guys are right. Sure. And I'm going to use this for the rest of my life. And we'll just see if, you know, how it goes. Everyone will get to evaluate it at the end of this journey.

I now have two.

“If you want to come over, I'll fucking zap anything.”

Oh, my God. It's not anything. No. Because like, you have to be a little careful. Of course, I'm not going to try to remove someone's big mole.

You're not. I doubt I'll ever be on high with that thing. Crank to 20 with a big arc in fucking sizzle. Yeah. I doubt that.

There's also been numbing, create like we need more. Anyway. Yeah. Yeah. AI.

That's a pro. Okay. I had a bad experience with AI while you were gone. Okay. I had a question going to go ahead.

Okay. Very bad. Or not very bad. But bad. Like they didn't help me at all.

And a thing that I felt like it should help me. So I already told you this. But so I was out of my camera. My seizure medication. And this is what I do.

I always put six pills when I get them into this teeny baggie.

So I always have some extra.

If I'm out stranded or something. Yeah. You get more roomed. Exactly. So I went.

I was out. And I hadn't requested a refill yet.

“So I was like, okay, got to go on my stash.”

And I went. I got two pills. Took them. I go upstairs. Then I'm going to take the rest of my medication.

Which is a statin. And my antidepressant. So I take my antidepressant. And then I get the statin. And I look at it.

And I'm like, huh. This looks exactly like the one. The two. I just took. But that's.

So can. I was so confused. So then I'm taking all these pictures. And sending it to AI and asking like, What is this pill for?

It can't figure it out. And I'm saying. Let's see. Very shocking. I know.

And I said, it's either this or this. Yeah, which is it. And then it said, well, if it's one of those two. It's more likely that it was like not sure. Okay.

And then I was like, well, I'm going to die. Because if I took two of the statin, which I should say, I actually take half of the statin. And so four acts. So four times the amount of statin.

And no seizure medication. That can't be good at all. But I don't know if I did that. Yeah. Okay.

Yeah. So then I go to bed. And I'm actually trying to not sleep. Because I'm like, I shouldn't sleep. But if I sleep tonight, I'm dead.

Okay. You know, you don't have a seizure. Yeah. And then the statin. And a heart attack or something.

Yeah, okay. And so I did have a really weird incident that night. I think it was maybe a panic attack. Psycho somatic. Maybe.

Well. So. So. What's a triggering word? Psycho somatic?

Yeah. Because I had to make it through the night. Yeah. Oh, I did in the middle of the night ask it. Oh, my God.

“I said, what happens if I took four times the amount I take?”

They said, how much do you take? Boba, blah.

It basically said you're probably fine.

Yeah. But if you get more, don't take it tomorrow. Like it. Whatever. So then, I make it through the night.

I'm very happy that I've lived through this. Okay. Then I, but I'm still not sure. I'm like, actually, probably I just took the capra and it's fine. Then I go to the pharmacy the next day.

I get my capra. I look at it. I didn't, I was right. I took four times the amount of the statin and no capra. I did fuck up.

Okay, great. Which means when I put it in the baggy, but hold on. Also explains why the AI was confused, because there was no picture of capra on the table.

No, no. I took a picture of the statin. Okay. And I said, what is this? Yeah.

I said, it's either this or this. I wonder if you could have just said, what is it? I think I did first say what is it and it was confusing. I was like, no, it's either this or this. And then I was like, could be Tylenol.

I was like, well, it's definitely not Tylenol. Yeah. You're no help to me when I'm dying. So that's a negative in the AI.

Well, here's what happened to me.

So, okay, I get to Nashville.

“You know, there's Army Corps of Engineering land in front of my land”

between the lake and my land. Because the Army Corps owns the shoreline of the entire inner coastal. Uh-huh. That's how it works.

Uh-huh. So there's restrictions. I want you can do on their land. You can't land scape it. You know, you can mow it.

You get a mowing permit. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Uh-huh. It had been cleared in spring. And I get there.

And it's mandated to grow fast again. So I get a fucking zero turn mower. Mm-hmm. I'm out there just chopping this shit out everything. And everything's so long.

So it's flying everywhere. Also, I bought it at Lowe's. Mm-hmm. Got it home, drove it off the trailer, and now I'm sitting on it. I'm just driving around a little bit.

Then I'm driving it in my backyard. Not cut to mowing. Right. I'm in shorts in a fucking, um, a Tylenol dinner jacket, right?

Uh-huh. A tank top. Uh-huh. And I don't think about poison ivy. I don't.

It doesn't occur to me. It's out there. So I get poison ivy everywhere. Now, again, it could be from that mowing thing. Also a tree fell over on the Army Corps land from a nice storm.

And I had to go out there and cut all that up. So I'm also out there with the chainsaw. I'm stacking shit. I'm fucking, you know, I'm getting busy. Mm-hmm.

That time I was covered. But the first time I wasn't. So I'm inclined to think it was the mowing thing. It just thrown the shit everywhere. Um, so I get poison ivy brutal on the top of my hands.

On my wrists, on my leg. All over my ribcage. Yeah. Um, on my mom's pubis. Yeah.

Um, it's everywhere. And it is, you know, I had it once four years ago on that trip home from Boston, where we had to sleep in the airport. But then we went to Larry's friend's house. Then we went a little hiking in that next morning.

I got it then. So three or four years ago, I got it too.

Well, this was fucking everywhere.

So it's like most of my trip to Nashville is still. It lasted like three or four weeks, right? Yeah. And um, so Eric and I are about to work out. And he like got outside and he's sitting on the steps in front of my house.

Like the little walkway from the driveway to the porch. And he's just sitting there and I walk out and he goes, "Is this, is this poison ivy?" And looking there's these two, I have two bushes. Oh.

You've seen them. Okay. I take pictures of it. And I say, "What is this?" Now, the AI knows I already had poison ivy. And I was taking pictures out in the Army Corps land. And I found a big patch of poison ivy.

Okay. And now we know what to look for. And now Eric does two like serrated blades, three leaves. Oh. And then generally like red, I'm the stem where they come together.

Okay. So he's looking at this thing and he's like, dude, it has all those things. Yeah, no shit. Take a picture of it, upload it. And it's like, yeah, that looks like almost certain that's poison oak.

Okay. And then I email the video of that to the landscape architect,

the guy who installed it in my builder.

“And I said, "Guys, is there any way that the poison oak was planted?”

Definitely." Yeah. Which is insane. I'm like, is the guy who installed it, who I've had little work? Like, did he fucking play?

Oh, no. Like literally my head went to how could poison oak end up as decorative? Okay. So I send it to all three of those dudes, no one responds. So I have a full day where no one will not have a full day.

I probably seven hours before someone responded to that. So I, I'm so pissed about the fucking poison ivy. I've been dealing with. I know. Dump gasoline on both plants.

Right now the audience is already panicking in your right to panic. So this is a huge blunder I shouldn't have done this. I make a long trail. I light it. Boom.

Fucking torch these two bushes. Okay. So public service announcement. Okay. No, let me finish.

And I'm like, that didn't really do it.

I go to back up the lows.

I get a ton of round up. Okay. Specifically for poison oak and poison ivy. Come back. Just doubt these fucking things.

Oh, my God. All done with this. Finally in the evening. My landscape architect who I love.

“He's like, no man, that's not poison oak.”

That's low gross soon Mac, which looks like poison oak. Okay. Often confused for poison. And I said, well, they're gone. And he said, did you torch him or round up him?

And I said, oh, yeah. And so later I learned. You can't burn poison oak or poison ivy. Or else can get into your lungs. Oh my God.

God. I need a dude who I have to do some clearing who says his grandmother died of burning poison oak. I know. I know. I know.

I'm admitting it. I know. I'm in trouble. I was in trouble with everybody. Yes, you can imagine.

Yeah. Everyone's upset. So unintended rash. It is. It is.

Yeah. I know. Yeah. I'm just like threat neutralize threat neutralize. Um.

So the I destroyed these two very pretty pushes. That's for all. I look awful. Why? We had to dig him out and throw him away.

And yeah. It was a disaster. And it's a. Because they have like that's poison oak. I can't have poison.

I can't have poison. How many times have I rub my ankles in this bush? I know. But then he all would have had it. Although I also learned that I'm known.

I don't have poison ivy. It's an allergy, right? So many people the oil doesn't do anything. Really? Yeah.

Interesting. And of course, I would make sense. I have. So many allergies. Yeah, yeah.

I'm a weak little boy. Yeah. Yeah. Fratial. Wow.

Um. So that was my story. Um. All right. Okay.

Time for facts. Yes. It's got to be. This is for Chris Young. What a story.

Oh. Yeah. Wow. What a story. I know.

I'm just so resilient. I mean, things he has gone through.

“And the fact that is immediate instinct was, what start reading?”

I know. It's so impossible. I, I, I, I, I, I aspire to that level of let's make the best of it. Me too. It's very.

Uh. Man search for meaning. Yeah. Well, ding ding ding. That's a fact.

Victor Franklebook. Man search for meaning. Yeah. Victor Frankle. Um, yeah.

Incredible story. I really hope people listen to this one. Um, Sickle cell. We talked a lot about it.

I was just going to give exact definition. Yeah. Let's talk about it. Sickle cell. Anemia is a severe inherited blood disorder defined by a.

Mischape and crescent shaped red blood cells that cause chronic fatigue. Painful blockages and organ damage.

It's like a. Yeah. On top of everything. I know. I know.

And helps you not die of malaria.

It's adaptive. That's what's crazy. Yeah. He said the quote, "Fate the size of a mustard seed. You can move a mountain into the sea."

He says there's different versions of it. It's from the Bible. Yes. It's Matthew 1720. Because of your little faith, he told them for truly I tell you.

If you have faith, the size of a mustard seed. You will tell this mountain move from here to there. And it will move. Nothing will be impossible for you. Um.

Um. Oh, I was looking up the different. Uh. Hardens. The different presidents have done.

And like how many and stuff. So, but our partens the same. They are right. Yeah. Yeah.

I mean, I too was like, why are they calling this claimants. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

So I don't really know the distinction.

If they're going to look it up. Yep. Yep. Don't believe the answer if it tells you it's. What's it like?

Pardon's just a specific type of clemency. So clemency can mean shortening the sentence or delaying. Punishment. A parted completely forgives the offense. Got it.

Okay. Okay. So FDR had 3,687 partants. 3600. How would even hear the names of all these?

I know. I don't know.

“You must have trusted somebody to curate that list.”

I'm sure. I bet most of them do. Yeah. Truman 1,913 partants. Eisenhower 1,110 partants.

Then we get into more. Yeah. So Reagan 393 partants.

He was stingy with his partants.

Well, you're about to see George H. George H. W. Bush 74 partants. Oh, geez. He was clamped down from there. Yep.

Clinton 396 partants. Okay. Went back to the regular back up. Still we'd like to see it in higher. George W. Bush 189 partants.

Oh, he's got to see you have the record. No. 189. For the lowest. Well, no.

H. W. Bush 74. Oh, of course. Yeah. Okay. Obama 212.

Not a lot. Trump 144. Biden 80. So we're back to not that many.

“But maybe it's because like, I think a lot of people don't.”

In quotes like parents. I mean, I do. But you know what I mean? It's like tricky. Like I think some people like you're just letting people out.

You're going to get grilled over it. Yeah. Because of course, going to be questionable calls. Yep. You could choose to incorporate the cultural context in which those.

People were operating. Mm-hmm. Or you could. You could choose to ignore it and just go by what happened. This whole story, Chris's story is about.

Taking in context. And the whole person. And where they are now. Yeah. And it's so important.

Yeah. Yeah. Like is the world better with that guy. We're not in a prison or among us. And in this case, I think he's definitely better.

Exactly. For everyone out among us. I agree. I think what's so, like, I really like this. A lot of people don't like these things.

I like when something challenges or forces you to. I acknowledge someone you don't like did something you like. Oh, I know a trauma. I know. So like, like, I've told a handful of people.

I happen to find out and I'm not allowed to say my source. Because I asked the person if I could repeat it and they said no. That's okay. But I've dealt with somebody many times in a kind of customer service capacity. And the person gets tipped and I asked him.

And the person deals with a lot of celebrities. And I asked, I've dealt with this person. And now if we have like a friendship this person.

“And I asked him, like, hey, will you tell me the biggest tip you ever got?”

Yeah. And he said, yeah, and do you want to know from who? And I said, yes. And he said $5,000 every time I ever dealt with them, Joe Rogan. Yes.

And so I've told like five or six people about that. Because A, I love that. I really love that. I just love when people money fucking shot word on the court. Right?

And it's the right thing to do. It is. And it's shocking how few of the people I know with money do that. Yeah. And so that's a rad part of Rogan.

And so I've told that to a couple of people. And they were like, and I don't buy it. Or like they. They're skeptical. Like, yeah, like he's got some ulterior motive.

Or he's out here trying to clean it. And I'm like, too, he doesn't know any. Dude, just that's, that's a really cool part of it. It's a cool part of it. And I, and the people told it a really hard time accepting that about it.

I was using his funny. So yeah, this, this, this Trump thing is like, I know. Yeah, I think it's really awesome when somebody who you think you despite does something completely that they didn't need to take their time to do.

It gets them really no cultural capital in their base.

Yeah.

“And you got to, you got to incorporate that into this multi-dimensional thing that we all are.”

Yes.

And anytime that happens, I just really like it.

I agree. I agree. I was very surprised. Um, and yeah, I think it's hard to give credit to people you hate. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's like human nature. But yeah, in this case, thank God he did that. Without him, this dude's not on our approach.

I mean, that's just a fact.

Yeah. So, um, yeah, I agree. Okay. Brian Stevenson quote.

“Each of us is more than the worst thing we've ever done.”

That's in Just Mercy. That's exactly what Chris said. He got it right. Um, that's it.

I have some bizarre, like, romantic notion.

I think there's something really cool about being self-educated in the manner, which he was because every, most of us have become really educated, adapted to some format that other people decided was the way to study it. It's a given intro to this class. Yeah.

You're not jumping to whatever book. You know, there's like an order of things in your departments and everything else. And I do have a fantasy that learning at all piecemeal like that allows you to kind of come up of your own cohesive through line to knowledge. That isn't compartmentalized by humanities or social science or this or that.

And it, I'm a little envious of, I kind of wish I acquired my knowledge in that way, where it's just like, I followed this interest, which led to this interest. And then when I stepped back from all of it, I'm like, "Oh, well, kind of covered everything that you would in college." And it wasn't prescribed or done or dulled out in someone else's idea of what that should be.

“Is that something really cool about these people who become extremely educated in prison?”

For sure. Just grab and book out of a library. Yeah, I agree. I did, I have been thinking lately that like, I am so old school in my beliefs about education. And I, like, it's changing.

Like education is changing. And I am very against that. And I'm like aware that I'm on the older end of this. Oh, it should go. Yeah, because I have real opinions about education.

And it's veering into a different direction. And I'm like, "Ah, that's so bad, but maybe I'm just old. I don't know." A couple of weeks, it'll be a little old. True.

I love you.