Olivia Fox Cabane (on the science of charisma)

- I'm Dax Shepherd, I'm joined by Monica Padman.

- Hi. - Today's guest is Olivia Foxe-Kabam.

“She is one of the world's leading authorities”

on the science of charisma. - This was fascinating. - Absolutely, Annabes selling author her book, "The Curisma Myth" is like globally enormous. It's such a huge book.

- She's worked with some people, Selena Gomez, I've ever heard of her. - I have. Annabes. - Oh, yeah, charisma.

There's a science to it. Everyone can have more of it. - You can, you can learn it. - Yeah, please enjoy Olivia Foxe-Kabam. (upbeat music)

- Where do you live, Olivia? - Amsterdam. - Oh, wow. - Oh, look how fun. - Thank you.

- How long have you lived there?

- So we moved there about a year ago, North and California at Amsterdam. So it was a bit of a transition. - I'm autistic, so having a lot of humans around is... - That you're at the old area.

So you got diagnosed with autism very late in life, you have 40s? - Yeah, so it turns out when I was seven, my parents took me to, so in Paris at the time, to a child's psychologist, and he listed down everything

that would be today considered to be the traits of autism, but girls don't have autism at that point. - Right, right, right, or ADHD. - Or any, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. - They have hysteria, yeah, yeah.

- But they can be prescribed vibrators in the 19th century, whatever. - And so in my 40s, my mother brought this up again and listed the traits, and I was like, hang on, this sounds like autism.

So I got a full like 12-hour evaluation, and you'll hear this from a lot of late diagnosed women,

all of a sudden, my whole life made sense.

- Yeah, yeah. - It's like, you're not broken, you're just autistic. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Oh, my gosh.

- So we have a friend, we have a close friend, who also got a late in life diagnoses. You have all these other stories to explain all these other events, and then you kind of just have to wipe the slate, right?

And go like, "Oh, no, that was that." And that was that. - But what a relief, you're not a bad horse, you're a zebra. - Yeah, right, right, right, right, right. - Now, a lot of people ask me how could someone

who was autistic right and become charisma, and my perspective only an autistic could have written this particular book because I'm good humans from the outside. I'm like, "Yes."

- Interesting. What a weird species. And so trying to fit in is how I developed all the tools that eventually began the book. - Now, Dad was a pretty renowned physicist.

- Yeah, and a mountaineer.

“So Brown Belt and Judo, seventh-essential”

of the Salkantai Silver Medalist in this physics thing. Oh, and a chemist as well. - Work with Nobel laureates. - Yeah, he was normal for me growing up to have Nobel laureates drop by for breakfast.

- Yeah. - I grew up in pairs, but with no Talish, no radio, no movies, no news, except for the new scientists. I didn't know there were other newspapers and news scientists. - And would it be fair to guess that, probably,

there's still a lot of people on Dad's circle, maybe even Dad himself that are probably somewhere in the spectrum. - Oh, I got it from him. - Right, so there's like a lot of things compounding.

One is like, everyone you're exposed to seems to be functioning the way you do. - In academia, yes, but the issue is that, so my mother was LA girl, the popular, like people actually like her.

It means my father, they moved to France and she very much had a dream for me to become this popular Parisian girl. - Oh, okay. She's a psychoanalyst?

- Psychotherapist, yes. - Psychotherapist, okay. - And so, trust engineer, me to be a social climber. - Oh, and I'm stressed. - Yes, right.

And I'm socially awkward to the point of an aptitude and now we understand, autistic, can you imagine the train wreck that was, right? I'm half French, half American, half Jewish, half Protestant,

and blue blood aristocratic Paris. - Yeah, yeah. - And autistic. - And mom probably has a fantasy about Paris. - The G. G. Sabrina, obviously, have burned.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. She's a very movie-and-formed, probably. Romanticism about that and what your life would be if you were the toast of that town. - Didn't work out that way.

- Yeah, didn't work out that way. - It normally doesn't. Did academics come easy to you?

“- That did, but you have to understand the French school system.”

The French school system is not designed to make happy children. It's designed to break them down, just like an occult. To then build them back up to be proper French citizens. So, athletes are dumb. This is an understood thing.

And so, because I was a swimmer, I was told by my head teacher, well, you're only fit to become a garbage collector. Quite obviously, since you're so stupid is to become an athlete. And this was not unusual.

- Wow. - So, academics were relatively easy law was fascinating. But for me, the part that was more interesting was this secret manual that everyone else seemed to have gotten on how to interact with humans

that I hadn't been given. - Right. - Your undergrad work was with law?

than left for Peru, than New York. So, a lot of law in the theoretical practice of law

was fascinating, but I never used it.

I've always believed, and this is probably the autism, that if there's an answer, it's in the library. If you want to fix something, first you figure out if there's science behind it. Turns out there was.

And I was really lucky that the turning point in charisma research was 2011. - Oh, no kidding. - Yeah. - And that's when you started.

- I had started looking at it quite seriously, but I wrote the book in 2012, just after work. - Yeah, it's great timing. - Yeah, it was perfect timing, because there had been some studies before

then that showed that charisma is just behavior. But 2011 is when they started showing, and it's been repeated ever since, that charisma is teachable.

“- Right, I think we all come into this conversation,”

assuming you're born with charisma or you're not. - Right. - And also, you can be. - Yes, certain people. - So, it's not either or.

- No. - It's aimed. - Yeah, there's genetic predispositions,

and people always believe, for example,

that extroverts are more naturally charismatic, and actually extroverts have any of your time with certain forms of charisma. - Right. - Introverts are gonna have a better time

with different forms of charisma. - Right, there's categories of charisma. - So, it's sort of flavors. - A lot of people, myself included, first assumed that charisma, you have it here,

you're born with it, not at all. So, the only difference is that the naturals start learning it so early, that by the time you're an adult, it looks as if it was natural.

People who become very good at it. It's really interesting, like Steve Jobs, from 1980 through to 2011, you can see him learning each of the charismatic elements literally step by step by step.

- Well, can we start with the definition? - Yes, before we get to the definition,

“and I just asked, what were you teaching at Berkeley?”

You were teaching some technique that you had been designed for Harvard and MIT, and you were teaching in class at Berkeley, that they had to be security. - That one, yes, it was the class on first impressions.

We have science. We know how first impressions happen, thin slicing, it's called the technical terms, and so this was a class on how to kill it with your first impressions at a job interview,

first date, you name it, and yes, it was quite popular. - I bet. (laughs) - Is there a concise version of that, or are there like three hallmarks to that, or four or five? - Yes, it is true

that you never get a second chance

to make a good first impression. They happen in under two seconds. So if you wanna ace your first impression, the best work actually happens before you walk in the door. - And?

- Tell me more. - The vast majority of your first impression is gonna be nonverbal, which means that getting your body language right is the critical thing.

However, body language is unfaicable. The reason for that is that there's so much body language emitted, where you aware of your eyelids fluttering in front of your eyes, until I mention it, just now.

- Right now. - How about the weight of your tongue in your mouth? How about the position of your toes? Have you forgotten your eyelids again? - Yeah, right.

- So there's so much body language that if you try to control it consciously, it's impossible. - 10 other things all. - Yeah, and then it's gonna be incongruent,

you're gonna come across as fake as terrible.

“So instead, the best thing is before you walk in the door,”

one of the best techniques is to imagine that you're gonna be meeting one of your best friends, because that will get you into the right body language before you walk in the door. - Yeah.

- Then you walk through the door and just be whoever you're gonna be, but just by getting this boost of positive body language, that makes the first impression go better. - So that's working inside out.

- Yes. - And we can also work outside in uncertain things. - Uncertain things. - But the body language thing should be inside out. - You're always gonna be at your most natural.

Curisma really can't be faked, but you can gamify your weight into it. - Yeah, yeah. - That makes sense. - Yeah.

- Okay, then definitely sorry, now yeah, let's get a definition of charisma. - That's gonna be a challenge because everyone has their own. So the way I look at charisma is people are always like,

is it like charm? No, charm gets people to like you. You can be incredibly charismatic and be a total asshole, right? - So charisma is more what gets people to trust you,

to want to follow you, what gets you to inspire people. The impact you have on others. It is a feeling of inspiration. It is a feeling of attraction and almost of magnetism. - Interesting.

- But we include confidence. - Can you have charisma without at least the veil of confidence? - Thank you for asking that, no you can't. Confidence is one of the key components, but here's the really important thing

and I hope we get the chance to talk about this. Self-compassion turns out to be more important than self-confidence. - Collaborate. - Just quickly, yeah.

- If we're talking about leadership positions or follow my vision or trust my vision, we have to have confidence. If that person is not confident about their own vision, there's no way we're getting on board.

- Yeah, you need to project confidence, but how do you get to confidence? 'Cause telling someone just be more confident, that's not gonna help. For me, it's always the now-what, how.

And for so many people in our current environment, it turns out that the one thing that is the most reductive of confidence is actually self-criticism. So ironically, self-compassion, learning how to forgive yourself, learning how to accept embrace and eventually celebrate yourself.

That is the path to self-confidence, which becomes really hilarious when I end up working with this big alpha dudes who wanna project power, and the path for them

- Yeah, that's gotta be a tough self for them.

If they've been like bootstraps, paradigm, ignore pain, - Science helps. - Because logic and science, I can show. Have you ever been in conversation and you say something in all of a sudden,

your brain goes, ooh, that was stupid. - Sure. - Right, all right. - What happens to your face when you're thinking that? It tensed up and cringes, keep in mind.

The other person was looking at you and it was self-directed judgment, but they don't know that. All they know is that while you are looking at them, listening to them, presumably thinking about them,

they accurately read, coldness, criticism, and judgment on your face. So naturally, they're gonna assume that that was about them. So two conclusions from that one, when you see someone have that facial expression,

I spend my time and other people's heads. 80% of the time, it's about them, not you. - Yeah. - And two, this is why self-compassion, self-forgiveness, are so bloody important,

is because self-criticism fucks up your body language.

“- Yeah, so the logic is, if you want to stop messing up”

your body language, learn how to forgive yourself. And that is how that will unlock the self-confidence that will then give you the power that will then give you the charisma, then you can rule the world and blah, blah, blah. - Okay, so for starters, we should talk about

what the downer of effects of having charisma are.

It's a very powerful tool.

- Too much so in a sense. I wasn't when I first wrote the book. At this point, I am genuinely concerned that these days in this attention economy, charisma matters more than intelligence, integrity, competence.

- It's a problem. - Well, yes. - In an attention economy, charisma gets attention. - It does. - Yeah, more than boring, well thought out game plans.

- One of the reasons I'm so desperate to democratize charisma is precisely to level the playing fields. - I like that. - Right, so that it stops having this outsized impact.

So in terms of what it does, so charismatic people have better quality of life, have less stress, they get paid more like all things, but even like physicians who are charismatic, their patients like them better,

follow the treatment plan better. - Oh, and too. - You're more effective. - It's stunning, charismatic teachers. Like you see the downstream effect every way.

- More romantic options. - Obviously. - The less stress thing is like, who wouldn't want to-- - Interesting, all right? - Like, yeah.

- But that's because a topic that you have both explored, charisma is tied to status. - Yeah. - And high status equals less stress. - Yeah, yeah, more resources.

- Yeah. - Okay, what are the pitfalls of charisma? - So the obvious ones are with charisma, you can do bad things, right? There's been books and books written about this.

Hitler, incredibly charismatic. - Yeah. - And they give a worse example. - Dynamics Speaker. (laughing)

- Trump is charismatic, I got it, yeah. - Yes, incredibly charismatic. So those pitfalls are obvious. The less obvious ones are, the pitfalls of being charismatic,

to the charismatic person, such as, you can convince people even when you're wrong, which you're gonna have some seriously bad effects. You can shut down brain storming. Now this is gonna start sounding a bit unbelievable,

but I'm always like, "No, please believe me."

It really happens. If you forget to turn the charisma off, people can get addicted to it. You see it in Silicon Valley all the time, that the VC's fun, the most charismatic founders.

- Yeah, oh, I'm sure. - Or, can you tell immediately when someone walks in if their car is mad at her? - Yes, but so can you. - Yeah, you know when someone walks in,

you're in Hollywood booth, if you ride, that's true. - Nearly everyone we talk to is pretty charismatic. We're spoiled. - Yeah, I guess. - 'Cause they're professors, they're authors,

“they're leaders of some kind in some way, I think.”

Back to the liability of it. It's a unique test for people who are super duper charismatic. Who genuinely everyone likes and a lot of people are attracted to. That's just a different way to go through life. - Are you gonna have the ethics to not give into the temptation?

- Yeah, you gotta be the outsized ethics. - It's a problem. - Yeah, because a lot of people are not using their powers for good. - Is there anything when presented with abundance that people generally don't indulge in it?

So if you're at it, all you can eat bar, you eat more than you normally do. - We're kind of context free to. - Everyone does, but some people do. I think some people do monitor that,

even if they have the ability. - Yeah, I just think if you check and know how to tell them, they go like, hey, by the way, unlimited massages, versus you have to pay for massages. My guess is you're gonna get one massage that week

that you're at the hotel if you pay for, and then if it's unlimited, you're probably gonna get 10. - But that's not a bad thing. - Right, I'm trying to point out that when you give people abundance,

they generally indulge in the abundance. Most human. - It comes with risks. Let me put this in. - Yeah, it comes with risks.

- Okay, so let's demystify charisma. Like a myth of attractiveness versus extroverts. There's like all these men, right? - Thank you, thank you. So the halo effect of beauty, right?

Are physically attractive people at an advantage in terms of being charismatic? Sure, however, you can be incredibly charismatic and profoundly ugly, hello Winston Churchill. - Uh-huh.

- And in fact, being more charismatic will make you appear more attractive and for men, taller. - Interesting.

“- I can't remember if it was one or two inches,”

but it's a couple of inches taller that you are rated as if you are charismatic. And since charisma is purely behavioral,

researchers in control laboratory experiments

“were able to raise and lower people's level of charisma”

as if they were turning a dial literally. - Wow. - Yeah, well fine, we gotta know exactly what that behavior is that they were able to get results that quick and acute.

- First one is, is it attractiveness?

Attractiveness helps, but is not necessary. Second is it extroversion. Extroversion helps for certain forms of charisma, but is absolutely not necessary. And in fact, because one of the components of charisma

is presence, the ability to be entirely focused on the other person, introverts are a huge advantage, especially for certain forms of charisma, because they are genuinely able to focus on the other person don't need to be in the spotlight all the time.

- Yeah, now this goes back to, so obviously, too, charisma's gotta be cultural. It's gotta be fluid, right? Because even when you say like the VC people are betting on the founders who are most charismatic,

well, what I mean, it goes like, I've met a lot of these founders. They are not your nice, traditional definition of charismatic. - Yes, thank you, thank you.

So is charisma cultural? - Yes.

- What you've just defined perfectly.

- The thing to you is, culturally is not just is charisma different in the US and Europe in the Middle East in Asia, yes, but also sub-cultural. - The South. - Or the Silicon Valley charisma has a certain amount

of cocky arrogance to it that VCs love. For example, there's some fascinating stuff like glasses. How do glasses impact the perception of someone? And so we know that you get an intelligence rating bump in Europe and the US in Japan, but not in India.

- We don't know. - Wow. - Oh my God. - The shape of your glasses, if they're rounder, you will be rated as friendlier warmer.

If they're more square, it'll be more competent intelligent. So there's fascinating things. And I do a fair amount of work in the Middle East and hand shakes, which I spend a lot of time on, especially with students,

because no one teaches kids these days how to shake hands properly. But when I'm in Dubai, I have to say everything I say is North American specifics. So please take this with not just a grain of salt,

but the whole shaker. There's certain circumstances where you just won't shake hands. I contact completely different in Asian, in the West. So, charisma absolutely completely cultural and sub-cultural. This is where adaptability is so important.

There's very few tools that are always good

and always bad per se. It's always what is best for you, your personality, your neuro type, the situation you're in and the goal.

“- Yeah, you have to imagine fortify your strengths.”

You're not gonna ask an introvert to become an extrovert. - Play to your strengths, manage around your weaknesses. - Yes. - Okay, what are the characteristics of charisma? Presence, power and warmth.

Walk me through. - Yes, so the charisma equation, if you think about it, it's called different things in different studies, but the components of power, which is sometimes called dominant source, shirtiveness, or status, or competence.

But essentially, it's the ability to affect the world around you. And if you think of it, it's can you move mountains for me. If you think of it from an evolutionary perspective, what we're asking when we're meeting someone for the first time is essentially fighter flight, friend or foe.

- Yeah. - And fighter flight is the power question. Friend or foe is the warmth question. Can you move mountains for me? Do you want to move mountains for me?

'Cause from an evolutionary perspective, if you meet someone who can move the mountains, but is no interest in doing so, doesn't change your life. If you meet someone who would love to move the mountains for you, but doesn't have the power, doesn't change your life.

You need both. If you meet someone who is both of those, but is completely distracted and unaware of which mountains you need moved, same thing. So the way I like to look at it,

it's as purely a personal metaphor, is you know the way that we overreact to sugar, fat, and salt. I'd like you to think of power, presence, and warmth the same way. Each one of these is attractive on your own,

but you put all three together, you get junk food. - Interesting. - Can we drill on on the status thing a little bit because that's my great fascination as someone who's obsessed with anthro

and just statuses, the most adaptive functional thing of a multi-member group who decides what, who gets what resources, all this stuff. I happen to think we're so, so aware of it at all times in a way that we don't realize.

So your hunch about charisma is,

“I can benefit from this, you have to assess that.”

This has been official to me. They're friendly, they have some powers, and I'm gonna benefit somehow. And I just wonder how much of it is simply like, there is some bizarre comfort in knowing what the hierarchy is.

Just for the sake of knowledge. Because when you don't know the hierarchy and you piss off an alpha or a high status person, there's hell to pay in a tribe. - Which is a problem for autistics often

'cause they don't see the hierarchy, yes. - Right. And so I'm just curious like what percentage we think is just also just this desire for, okay, where is everyone at?

Okay, it's comforting to know that person is clearly the highly status. It's a big part, but without the warmth, it can read just as threatening.

what you get is someone impressive,

but not necessarily charismatic. So here's a fun piece on status. So these days I mask very little in autistic terms. Especially since the diagnosis, I've been like, fuck it, I'm just gonna be me.

- Yeah. - Which means that I have a lot of autistic ticks that I would otherwise have suppressed when I was trying to be just pure charisma. And a lot of the behaviors that are autistic stemming

are also forms of low status signaling. - Oh yeah. - So cell soothing behaviors. What people who feel they're low status do, when they're faced with someone who's a higher status,

is gonna be a lot of self soothing, touching their clothing, their hair, and this is my okay, am I right? And that is some pretty self soothing behavior, which guess what is autism 101?

- Right, but might read to others as low status. - Correct, it does read to others as low status. And so if you're optimizing purely for charisma and you're willing to pay the price of masking if you're autistic, then yeah,

“you should optimize for stillness and points,”

but masking comes at a cost. - Yeah, let's get into this question. - That sounds miserable. - I think you handle it perfectly in the book, which is like, here is an option for you.

You don't have to pursue it, but if you desire this, yes, some masking is gonna require now, we gotta get into the nuance of what is destructive masking, or it's harmful, what is fine. - Yeah.

- So for people who don't have any experience with that, you just talk a little bit about masking and how it can be destructive and how sometimes it's fine. - So with the caveat that I'm not an autism expert, I only know the lived experience,

masking is the autistic code switching to pass as normal. And so one of the challenges I had to the book is that a lot of people are saying, isn't the book just masking one-on-one for autistics?

And the answer is yes, absolutely.

For nortipicals, it'll make you charismatic. For autistics, if you do everything in there, it may lead you to appear as nortipical. Should we have to mask, ideally not, of course. - Yeah, in a very moral knowledge.

- In a more old note, but this is the world we have. And so if you have to mask, which you do in certain cases, here are the least harmful ways I know, the most healthy ways I know, all things considered,

to mask.

“And that's why we flag them in the book.”

And I had an autistic psychiatrist review the book to flag anything that could be constituting as masking. So what are the risks of masking? It can be pretty heavy. If you mask for too long without any breaks

and with certain kinds of unhealthy masking, especially for autistic women, it can lead to burnout depression, suicidal ideation. The stats are dire. - 'Cause it's energy-consumptive.

- It's energy-consumptive, but it's also,

and this is right, don't know the science very well,

but masking is doing violence to the autistic nervous system. The autistic nervous system is wire differently than the neurotypical nervous system. That's one of the key definitions.

And so masking is suppressing all the self-regulation tools. - Yeah. - That you be using other ones. - Exactly, you're building up instead of soothing. You're actively not soothing.

And then what happens if you don't sue the builds up? - Melt down. - During the evaluation, I confidently told the doctor, "No, no, but I don't stim at all." It's just not me.

And then I see a video of me in front of a class and I'm rocking, but it wasn't back and forth, which is why it was time to decide. - Totally. - That's not it.

- Totally. - That's not it. - I mean, that's a C-City. - That's why I'm on a bump. - A Citing.

- We one time interviewed a clinical sociopath and she was explaining her mask, which was fascinating. We encourage her, like, go fucking mask off.

“Like, what would this conversation be like, mask off?”

And she's like, okay, would you get arrested for? Like, she just went directly into how she would prefer to communicate in real life, which is like, let's get to it. I want to ask the Narlia's question about you

and I want to really begin on that. And I thought, oh yeah, that's exhaustive to be living a version of yourself that just really isn't you? - Yeah, one of the reasons that I'm more comfortable here

than I would be in a corporate interview is because I've listened to a few of your podcasts, you guys do real. And so I knew that it would be okay if I didn't mask. - Yes.

- Whereas I'm going on some other interviews later in the week and they've given me the guidelines and I've been like, this is gonna be-- - You're gonna be buttoned up. - Oh boy, yeah, yeah, yeah.

- Oh, I'm so much more interested in someone's dimming or doing what everything they're doing. - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I kind of love it. - See, that's what's so funny

because I'm like, that is charismatic to me. Like, I think that's confident being very real. - What you are, what about the only-- - Yeah, so you'll see me in literally two different modes of charisma.

You can see me on stage in recordings when I was in my 20s and I was like, could switch to 100%. So I am fully polished on stage perfect New Yorker and these days it's a different kind of charisma

where I'm like, "Fuck it, I don't have anything to prove anymore." So I'm gonna walk around my pink fleece, one Z. But it's a different kind of charisma and what's really interesting for me

is if you look at generationally, the charisma that boomers respond to. Versus the charisma that millennials and Gen Z,

They want authentic charisma, warts and all. - Yeah, yeah. They're too polished, actually, for them that's a problem. Cultural charisma, generational charisma, it's been fascinating.

- Yeah, okay, what are the obstacles to presence power and warmth? And maybe we could go through some like, hard examples of how someone presents power, how they present warmth.

- Yeah, so let me start with presence

“'cause that's why it's the one that people overlook.”

And in essence, it's kind of the foundation, the way I see it.

The reason I always work from the inside out is that

I could give you all the surface tools for charisma, but that's like building pretty balconies and turrets on a house with faulty foundations, right? At the first earthquake, everything falls apart. - So presence is really the ground of charisma,

and it is simply the ability to be present moment by moment. Certain studies call it attentiveness, but others' receptivity, but essentially it is the ability to give the other person your full attention. In today's world, that is increasingly difficult.

Here's the good news, even a tiny increase in your ability to be present is gonna have outside the facts, because everyone else is so distracted. - That makes me think of people thought George Washington was so smart, because he was the only person

in the continental congress that didn't talk. Everyone else was constantly monologing to try to jockey for who is the smartest in this room of very smart people. And people were just enamored with his ability

to be quiet, and they projected onto him, oh, he's so confident in self-assured.

“He doesn't even need to get in the fray.”

- Two things about that, a professional negotiator told me he could predict the outcome of any negotiation, just by looking at the relative level of comfort of the participants with silence. Whoever is the least comfortable with silence loses.

That's one thing. Second thing, have you ever been in a conversation when only half your brain is present? The other half is busy doing something else. - Totally.

- Ninety-five percent of our conversation, yeah. - Did you think the other person notices? - I guess I think they don't. - But they promise. - Me as soon they don't. What actually happens is that your eyes slightly glaze over,

a tiny bit. There's a split second delay in your facial reactions. - I like so of my head right now. (laughing) - So we can read each other's faces in under 17 milliseconds.

- Oh my. - We are so good at detecting anything that is incongruent.

And so the problem is that if you're not fully attentive

“in the conversation, that lag is gonna give the impression”

of incongruents, and it can make you appear inauthentic, just 'cause you were still writing emails are on slack in your head. So yeah, the ability to be fully present is really the ground for all charisma.

- And what's a practice someone can get into that would help. - There are lots of bigger tools, but if you want the two-second tool, if you're in a conversation, you feel that your brain is somewhere else,

focus on your toes, the physical sensation in your toes. 'Cause what this does is it forces your brain to scan your whole body from head to of course toe, and it gets you very present in the moment. You only do that for a moment,

then you get back to the conversation, obviously. But yeah, your toes is one of the best tools for instant press. - Love that. - About before you enter the situation or you're liable to have a wandering mind

is like breathing. - Breathing is really good. If you're in a situation where you feel safe doing this, and if you're in a headspace where you feel safe doing this, a whole check-in with your emotions,

where's my head at, where's my heart at, that can be a very grounding experience. If it's appropriate for you. I mean, it's bloody uncomfortable, but meditation is one of the best training grounds for charisma.

It's a gym for the mind. - Stay tuned for our share expert. If you dare, we are supported by all state.

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You're in good hands with all state. - Potential savings vary subject to terms and availability insurance by all state North American insurance company, North Brooklyn, Illinois, roadside assistance by all state motor club,

incorporated, and all state affiliate. (upbeat music) - What about power? - People think of power as the ability to command people. It's not, it is simply giving the impression

that you have the ability to affect the world around you. Power is read almost entirely through body language. And what happens really is that what they're looking for because they don't have the time as in anything else in first impressions,

they don't have the time to figure out how much power you genuinely have. This is the rule.

So if you seem confident, people will assume that you have something to be confident about. And this is where we get into the questions of do you understand the difference between self-esteem, self-confidence and self-compassion?

You should tell us, okay. So self-confidence is your belief in your ability to do something or to learn how to do it. Self-esteem is how much you like yourself. Interesting, both of these are positively correlated

with narcissism, which is not a good thing. - Yeah, self-compassion on the other hand.

“That's how you handle yourself when shit goes wrong.”

And that is the one that is the biggest predictor of health. So if you ever want to have an expert on self-compassion, Christian Neff is the gong done in that field. - What were did you just use? - Grand Dame.

- Oh, the grand Dame. - Grand Dame, yeah, yeah, yeah. - When they saw, it's like, can't say the American way. It's just right. - Yeah. - Yeah. - So the big person in this field, the science is fascinating on the impact of self-compassion

on people of higher self-compassion, tolerate mistakes better. They can admit them better. They have fewer sick days. It's just a predictor of so many things that,

honestly, incorporation should be testing for self-compassion, when they hire people. - I would imagine it makes you less judgmental towards others as well. - Yes, it does. - Yes, it does. - I've turned on the dial on yourself.

It's easier to extend that to others. - It's incredible. So if you look at self-compassion, if you look at what really lowers confidence, you've got really two big beasts.

You've got the imposter syndrome, which a lot of people hear about, and the inner critic. And I see them kind of differently, because the imposter syndrome attacks what you're doing. You don't know what you're doing,

and it's only a matter of time before you're found out and exposes a fraud. The inner critic is worse in a way because it attacks who you are. The way I look at it is that the imposter syndrome,

you've got a good chance of learning how to dismantle it. The inner critic will be with you for life. It's like your shadow.

You'll never get rid of your shadow.

- I think we have a lot of people that think they're suffering from imposter syndrome, but it's really the self-respect. - And they're different. - And they have different reactions.

- Imposter syndrome is so common with people we interview, because they're in extraordinary situations, which no one's really certain if they're really ready to be in or capable of handling.

“But I think sometimes you see that window is closed”

when you should feel that way. And I think there's another force at play that's more 'cause you can do it, and you know you can do it, and what else is going on. - Yeah, so on the inner critic,

the best book I've ever found is called Embracing the inner critic, it's a pretty old book, small book, really useful. The framework I love is that just like you'll never get rid of your shadow.

But you can learn to handle your inner critic with compassion. You can learn to handle even with humor and realize that it actually comes from a place of love. The inner critic is desperately trying to keep you safe.

- And keep you loveable. - And keep you loveable. - But so if you learn how to handle the inner critic, the impossible syndrome, if you learn self-compassion,

those are some of the best ways to increase yourself confidence. Now, if your question is, what's the quick fix? That's different. There's two ways I look at it.

First, for a lot of people and almost all women,

I would beg you to learn martial arts, specifically Brazilian jujitsu. - Yeah.

“- Because there's a kind of grounded confidence”

that comes from knowing you could take the other guy down, whoever it is, that nothing else I found ever gives you. We are all perilous monkeys barely descended from the trees in terms of how much time. So knowing that you could take care of yourself

in a fight that really changes things. - Yeah, yeah. - It's reducing a sense of vulnerability. - It does, but it also means that you move differently. - Yeah.

- And so the full caught at grappling sports are wonderful, especially because women are taught to be small. We're taught to not take up too much space. And what we're communicating is, please like me. - Yeah.

- I'm harmless, exactly. Don't worry about me. And I'd like you to communicate the opposite to learn how to take up space. - My daughter and wife trained with, Cecilia Gracie,

from the Gracie family. - Lovely. - And what's so rad about that? And she teaches four girls. And the stuff that is taught is so intuitive.

It's how do you shake a man's hand? If you don't want someone to put their arm around you in a picture, how are you holding your body? There's all these subtle ways to present your body to the world that's not a fight,

but is incredibly empowering and effective. For making sure your body is moving through the world as you'd like it to. It's not just fighting. - Yeah, it's learning how to own the space around you.

- Yeah. - It's moving like you're the predator. That's one, two is improv. improv is a fabulous training for confidence. It's wonderful.

But in the moment, if you need a, I need confidence in the next two seconds.

So if you can close your eyes for a second,

just a second right now. - Don't steal my wallet. - So imagine cutting the lemon in half and feeling the lemon juice on your tongue. And now imagine dragging your fingernails across

chalkboard. Right, open your eyes. So it's horrible. There was no lemon, there was no chalkboard.

- I got a shiver. - Two are completely imaginary events, right? - And so what this is, this is the placebo effect. It's the reason why you get scared watching a scary movie, even though you know those are just well paid actors up there,

who are delighted to look that they're getting their head chopped

off and changed for a couple of million bucks, hopefully.

- And you're on account, you're safe. - And you're on account, you're safe. But to simplify it, our brain doesn't know the difference between imagination and reality. The placebo effect is free, has no calories,

has lots of beneficial effects. So it's called a placebo effect. We don't use it half enough. So using visualization, there's a reason why more than 80% of Olympic athletes use it.

- Imagineing a previous triumph, a time when you fed an incredibly confident top of the world and getting all five senses involved, that's worth ways to get an instant confidence boost. - Yeah.

- When I read this, I was like, what would be my thing? What moment can I point to? I'm dying to know what yours would be. What is something come to the state champions? - Yeah.

- And it crazy these little things you do in your life, they might be trivial, but it's like, no. - No, they are lasted. - They make you. - Either that, but all of it would have been cheerleading,

like landing my first back top. Those things were like, you don't forget the feeling. - Like, oh my god, I actually did that. - Yeah, I couldn't believe it. I didn't think I could.

I tried so hard and I did.

“- I think that's a key, I think I could and I did.”

- Yeah. - Or like I did this thing that a lot of people can't do, those feelings they do, they make you feel confident. - What do you think of? - Because I started martial arts fairly early,

that was just always a part of my life.

It wasn't like a pivotal moment. No, I think it was probably the first time I realized I was good at public speaking, that was about 18. So yeah, it would've been same kind of early memories.

- Yeah, it's here. - It makes sense, 'cause it's like the first kiss that you remember your first, right? - Yeah. - Probably that.

- And confidence for me is easier to get into than warmth. I live in my head. The confidence piece for me is rarely the struggle. - And when I be wrong to guess that the autism is one of the added challenges with the warmth, that's back.

- So one of the misunderstandings that people have is that when I disclose my diagnosis, some friends were like, you didn't know, especially the friends in the family. They were like, "Oh, I thought you were just in talking about

"and I'm talking about things." - But other friends, especially those who might be masking, said, "But you can't be autistic, you have emotions." - Right, right, right.

- The misconception, and in fact,

I just did people feel emotions very, very, very deeply. It's just not on the same triggers. It's not necessarily at the same time. It's not necessarily with humans. The conversation that the two of you were having over,

when you have a conversation with your wife, and she just wants you to listen to her, and you're like, "Let me give you a solution." - I'm you. - Yeah.

- And so my poor husband, who just wants me to listen to him, and I'm like, "But I've got three solutions. "Well, you just don't go, you just can fix this for you." Now, ironically, the opposite issue that we have is then, when I go to my husband, and he thinks,

"I want to hear, oh, I'm so sorry for you." And I'm like, "No, but I'm calling for a solution." - And I'm like, "Nancy, yeah." It's very kind of you to say, "You're sorry, "but what does that fix?"

- Yeah, give me the lever I pull, get a different out of it." - You need you to listen to me, just help me fix this thing. - Good, that means you're not hypocritical. - I'm a bit hypocritical. - Okay, you are a little, you don't want to hear you.

Thank you for ignoring that. You don't like to hear other people give you solutions. - No, I hate other people's solutions. - So sing it. - That's where it's like, "Okay, well, you can't really

“"give me any if you want to, thank you."”

- Well, appreciate the self-awareness. - Yeah, oh, yeah, yes, we do appreciate it. So, yeah, the warmth piece is particularly challenging because warmth even more than confidence cannot be faked. So warmth really gets red in the eyes and the voice.

And have you ever heard about it? Do you can smile, a real smile versus a social smile? - Yeah. - So in a do you can smile, it actually affects the inner corners of your eyes, for example.

They go down a little bit. Paul Beckman, who's the great-grandmaster of, was the great-grandmaster of facial expressions. - We know this, he had a partner. And they were documenting every single facial across the world.

- And they were realizing the emotions we're hitting them. It was working inside and out and outside. - Mirror neurons, right? - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - But one of the things that was fascinating,

for example, is realizing that you and a lot of expressions are learned, symmetrical ones are the ones that are instinctive. In any event, you can learn as an actor to get yourself into the mindset that will promote the warmth. - But if you try to just control your eyes deliberately,

it will not work. The same way that and this is important for people to know. If you are feeling angry or stressed and you try to just suppress that, not only will it not work, but you will create an increased stress activation

in the other person's brain. - Here's my favorite piece of data on this. Was when the MIT Media Lab in 2008, they were able to model with more than 80% accuracy, the outcome of sales calls, negotiations,

and business plan pitches without listening to a single word of content. - Oh, baby, what were they looking at? There's like John Gottman's shit. - Kind of, the ratio of speaking to listening,

and most importantly, the excitement

“and the confidence, which were the two key pieces.”

But what's fascinating is when I was working to start a founders, I had to explain to them your spending three hours on your PowerPoint. That's great, it's a lovely power at some point. It's beautiful.

and your spending zero time on that.

- Yeah. - So this is one of the cases where you really are going to have to get into a genuine state of warmth, but the placebo effect can be your friend too. And especially when you're dealing with difficult people,

I don't care what you have to imagine. Go nuclear if you have to. - Uh-huh. - But imagine that their dog just got killed and they didn't run accidents, they're spouts asked them for a divorce.

They lost both of their parents that morning.

“Whatever you have to imagine to get in that moment,”

you're not going to sustain it through the whole conversation. But just get yourself into a mental space. And also, difficult people are usually difficult for a reason. Usually they didn't have a life filled with happiness and love. So try to imagine them in their awkward teenage years.

And what horrible life they have now, if you can get yourself in a place of genuine empathy that will pour forth in all your body language or your energy signature, and that will get you charisma. People think that charisma is how you make people feel about you.

It's actually a lot more how you make them feel about themselves. - Yeah. - Yeah. - Don't try to impress people. Let them impress you and they will love you for it.

- There's another one that's counterintuitive things. It's like, I remember in my 20s, I talk about them all the time. I had a friend Scott Johnson, everywhere we went. Every girl was in love with them, every guy liked them.

I was like, oh my God, Scottie asked people so many questions. - Make them feel interesting. - Yes. And it's like so easy, and it's genuine. There's nothing wrong with it, and just the outcome I could not not observe.

Like, oh my God, people love him because he's interested in them. - There's this famous story about two men who are running for the post of Prime Minister at the time, British Empire. And one young lady went to dinner with both men on consecutive evening. It is alleged that that young woman would go on to,

by the way, become the mother Winston Churchill. But the press after the next day, what impressions the two men had made upon her, and she said, after dining with Mr. Gladstone, I thought he was the cleverest man in England.

After dining with Mr. Disraeli, I thought I was the cleverest woman in England. - And the latter one. - Disraeli won the election. - Yes, it makes sense, though. - If the other person starts saying, am I talking too much?

- You know, you've got the racial right. - Exactly. Yeah, I think of, so when we edit this show, not anymore, because it's video, but it used to just be like these audio files, right?

And I always have this image, because you see the two.

And I'm like, how much is their audio file going before our audio files going? It needs to be, ours is this much, and theirs is this much. Like, I'm always aware of that. And that's how I think conversation,

“like you should attempt conversation to be.”

- I do. - I do. - More the other person's audio file than yours. And one of the key pieces there is as much as possible, realizing that charisma does not depend on how much time you have available, but on how present you are during that time.

So the ability to be fully present during the interaction, rather than worrying about the next thing you're going to say or the thing you've just said, you want to fast pass to charisma, that's it. - How do we overcome these obstacles? We're getting into it, but these are some techniques.

The one for warmth, what's the technique to lock you into that? - The warmth is find a way to really like the other person. A lot of the book, honestly, is just using the brain's deficiencies to your advantage. So the placebo effect, you can use that in many ways. Here's another one.

Have you ever had the experience of a day where all the little things go wrong is harder to handle than a day when one big thing goes wrong? And that's because our brain is crap at understanding scale. You can use that to your advantage if you can find three small things in the other person that you like.

I don't care if it's like their shoes are shined, nice belts, they were on time or at least they showed up, right? - No crust in their eyes. - Whatever it is. If you can pile up the little things, that sends your brain down a certain path

and that's often enough to get enough of the liking in your brain and in your body language.

It always has to be genuine.

You can't try to convince yourself of something you profoundly don't believe.

“- It just points out how hackable the brain is, right?”

- Totally. - And I think it should help to depersonalize our feelings, which is like brains work a certain way. We have this guy on about violence being motivated out of a sense of justice. And he made us do this practice, which is like a forgiveness practice, whether you really genuinely want to forgive the person or not,

physically transfers where your brain is thinking currently into another region at Hastu. It's the only part of your brain that can formulate the forgiveness thing. And just the act of doing it, pulls your brain into the right place you want it to be. And it's just nuts that it's that hackable.

- Our brain is not designed for this environment. It's amazing that we're getting this much done, considering how ill-adapted we are to an environment. But on the positive side, all of these deficiencies or hacks can be used to your advantage. You might as well.

- Yeah. - It's dumb enough to go astray and then it's dumb enough to be set back on the right path. What are some different charismatic styles?

So I just pulled out a few of those that I thought might be the most useful,

“the most easy to get into, but understand that there's an infinity of variations.”

And some can't really be taught.

But the understanding that no one form of charisma is always good or is bad per se.

So authority charisma, for example, which is the one that is of the three components, you always need power presence and warmth. You need a certain amount to get to charisma, like in chemistry. You need a certain amount of element to get to activation energy. But above that, what changes is the kind of charisma you get,

depending on which of each component, how much of them is present. So authority charisma is highest on power. Second on presence, third on warmth. - This is potent. - Unfortunately. - But yes, here's madness.

- Yes. - Yeah. - Right. - Right. - That's true.

Get alert, incredibly charismatic, Mussolini, a lot of the dictators. - But no exudes the stoicism. - He does. - Right. - But he's just completely unwavering at all times.

“- And here's the thing to remember, is that the warmth doesn't have to be towards your audience.”

Steve Jobs didn't love his audience. The warmth came from his love of the product. - Yeah. - But the warmth was there. Authority charisma really good.

If you need to get people out of a burning building. - Right. - If you need someone to follow orders, authority charisma fabulous. Not so good at a funeral. Or if you're firing someone.

There you want more like the kindness charisma that like the dialogue has, which is highest on warmth.

Second on presence and lowest on power.

You can switch between them. So you were talking about Bill Gates typical focus charisma guy. Leads with presence. Elon Musk interestingly enough, originally was more of a focus charisma guy. He would drink in your words.

You could see him like a sponge absorbing every word. And he would lead with presence. Second is on power. Lowest is on warmth. So you really get different kinds of charisma.

And I know the book is used in seduction circles. That is not what I wrote it for. It's not a feel I understand. Everything will be weaponized. It is reass assured.

- Right. So there's certain kinds of sexual charisma. Which I can't tell you about because I didn't study them at all. But there's an infinity of flavors. The important thing, if there's one thing I want you to remember is this.

You don't have to change your personality to be charismatic. You are not. All it is is finding the different kinds of charisma that work best for you in this situation or that situation. I see it as kind of getting credit for what you already are. And one of the reasons why spending time at MIT for example is important to me because I really deeply care about helping science survive.

And I feel that we are in a moment of crisis of legitimacy for science.

“And so the reason why I think it would be really important is really important to be teaching charisma to scientists.”

It's because it doesn't matter how brilliant you are and how good your science is. If you can't present it in a way that people can find it interesting. I mean, we have a lot of political examples of this. Of course, John Kerry is a very famous example for us. Like, qualified to the end of the degree, not charismatic.

And there's a difference between one-on-one charisma in person charisma. And on stage on screen and especially now online charisma. Oh, yeah. It's a different beast. Yes.

Well, which we're going to get to, I think that's my question. Yeah, 10 for you. I just realized that you may or may not have picked it up. But there was a moment when ironically when I wanted to make the point that you have to be really fully present in the moment and not thinking about the next thing you're about to say. I didn't let you finish the last word.

Oh, you're fine. And I don't even remember. She lives with me, I mean, she's so used to be interrupted. Yeah, I didn't know worries that I don't remember. No, it's probably not important.

I have beat her into compliance. There's no such thing as finishing a sentence here. Okay. Go ahead. You were saying.

I'm trying to get better. I don't know. You're getting better. I don't know. Work in progress.

Yeah, that's right. Aren't we all? It's a charismatic style of listening. So that's in the focus charisma. You're an introvert being able to be really fully present and deeply listening is the fastest way to focus charisma.

The, the fascinating thing is that of all the files of charisma, that's the one that I see is in a sense the most valuable these days, especially for the younger generations. When we live in a state of continuous partial attention, when being fully present for 10 seconds is a miracle for a lot of people these days.

And so the ability to truly deeply listen is one of the most powerful tools of charisma you have at your disposal.

There are a lot of personality traits that people first assume to be a detriment to charisma that are actually an advantage. But I was just thinking. The honest answer if you want a one sure fire path to charisma is find a cause you are passionate about because that will get you the presence because you are fully focused on this one thing. It'll get you the power because you are confident that this one thing is the right thing to do and you'll get you the warmth because you care about this one thing.

Do you want charisma find your cause you'll get laid.

Yeah, that's a great advice.

“Yeah, body language we kind of talked about that.”

Yes, only to reiterate that you can't fake your body language. Do the pre steps. Yeah, but you can train it. So what you're getting for me right now is a lot of things that I would have normally suppressed. I'm not in a lot.

I am doing a lot of artistic stimming, but that is something that I would have trained myself out of 10 or 20 years ago. So if you absolutely must train yourself into specific body language, you can. But it will come at a cost so make bloody sure it's worth it. Yeah, save your moments for that. So increasingly younger people's lives are online.

Yeah. I don't know how one is charismatic online or digitally. It's totally different. So for this, I actually got the guy who was the scientific editor on the new edition is the guy on vocal and digital charisma. The chapter on online charisma is him. He wrote it.

Because this is 14 years old when you first wrote it, there's no way you could have anticipated.

No idea.

“And by the way, post replication crisis in psychology.”

One of the reasons I was so keen to get the sense of the book read done is because all the science had to be re-evaluated. Power posing. For example. Yeah. Like me.

One of the biggest replication crises in psychology was when Amy Cutty originally came out with these power posts and she said it's going to change the way you feel and it's going to change the neurotransmitters, the chemicals in your body. And then replication crisis happens. And hers was one of the studies that couldn't be replicated. Fast forward 2018, her and her team come back and say, yes, we can replicate part of it.

Not the chemicals, but yes, the change in the internal state.

So this is the autistic piece, I guess.

It was physically painful for me knowing people were out there reading a book with outdated science. Yeah. So I was like, please, let me fix this. With online charisma, I'm going to put a lot of caveas because the science is so new that some of the studies that are in the book were just published or even pre-publication.

“Oh, wow. Yeah. So this is new, new, new, new stuff, but Oliver's research showed that one of the fascinating things is vocal fluctuation, which was one of the things that the MIT study had found was critical.”

So there's two things. The end of your sentences. So it's the difference. So I like you to pay attention to just your emotions when I say the following sentence. The real problem with a lot of people's lives is absolutely the color of their toilet paper.

And if only they changed from pink to blue, everything would change. Now, of course, your brain eventually cuts in and says, hang on. This is absolutely cool. Yeah, sounds very convincing. Not for a while.

Now imagine if I say the problem in this country is immigrants. And if only we got rid of the immigrants, right? So I can say anything with this tone of voice. That was very Hitler ask. The white people are the issue.

And you, DAX, I can see, are the source of all the problems in my country. So what you're looking at here is the speed and the depth at which the end of my sentences and even sentence breaks the sentence. So it's the difference between the sky is blue. That up talk that, unfortunately, so many American teenagers have. Like you know, when they're saying things like a question, even when it's not a question,

the opposite being and pink elephants took over from the blue rhinoceros and that ended the war. And that can make pretty much anything sound credible. Yeah, the conviction and your voice. But what sounds as conviction competence, that comes from that dip that rhythmic. Yes, yeah.

And what's interesting is one of the myths that was this spell that I believed in is that I thought that lower voices were more charismatic. And Oliver Nebris research shows that, no, no, no, if you look at Steve Jobs voice, his voice was actually so high. It occasionally went to the female register, but he had that fluctuation. So it's more fluctuation better to simplify it. So like you say, eat your carrots for grand, huh?

So it's that, right? The opposite of what they call the engineer voice trap, which is the monotone. And then we have this really exciting thing that is happening. And you can't believe how exciting it is, right? It's the pattern more than the tone.

It is. So high fluctuation and fast and deep drops at sentence breaks. And at the end of the res sentences is what will make you sound the most impressive. Confident, competent, trustworthy, et cetera, et cetera. It's as if you're saying full stop after every sentence you say.

Pretty much, but even in the middle of sentence breaks. Because if you listen to Obama, so one of the other things that's really interesting that I'll be human sent to do is that, you know, they tend to take up space, like they'll put their arm on one chair, their feet on another chair. And in a sense, they do the same with their sentences.

Taking up space, you're communicating that you are so damn confident. And either who you are or what you're saying that you know the other person will not dare interrupt. Yeah. He has a calm, slow, confident delivery of everything.

That's why you don't want to interrupt him.

Because it's not like you're doing him any favors by interrupting. You're like, yeah, what is the rest of this? What is he going to say? He knows what it is. You don't feel worried.

That's a lot of why other people interrupt.

“I think it's like to help finish to help.”

It could. It could also be excitement. That can be a real double-edged sword where like the autistic love language is info dumping. If you like someone, you want to tell them all the things you know about this thing, right? And the more excited I get about a topic, the faster I speak.

Which is a real problem. The ability to have a alternating tempo. So there's so many fascinating things, but back to online charisma. A change of one semi-tone. We'll get you if you're in established influence or 50,000 more subscribers on average.

It's fascinating. What does that mean? Sorry. Isn't it text or no when they're talking to camera? When you're on camera, a change of even one semi-tone in range and pitch will get you on average 50,000.

It's fascinating. So there's that. There's also the fascinating stuff like audio compression can lead to emotional confusion, where especially for women. Emotions like excitement will be read as anger and impatience.

And so one of the quick fixes is if ever you know that you've got a bandwidth problem, turn off your camera. Because the emotions are so important that it's more important to get your voice across well than to get your face across. The other things that we're really interesting was the placement of the camera,

sure we all know that you should have it slightly above, never below.

But just by taping the image of someone you really like above the camera, that can really help you get into the emotion of speaking to someone you like. And your voice is going to change. Online charisma is fascinating. That is so interesting.

Oh, it is. Stay tuned for more armchair experts. If you dare. I'm glad that chapter 15 exists because everything in life is trade-offs.

“I think if you're on the outside of charisma, you're like, yeah, who wouldn't want it?”

Sounds great. And no big deal. So let's talk about the downsides of charisma. So the downsides that we talked about, you can convince people even when you're wrong. There are starts being a certain amount of expectation that people can really become addicted to your presence,

addicted to the high of being around the charisma, and that can be exhausting. So there's a lot of the double edges where you can start drinking your own cool-aid faster if you're charismatic. And you can run straight into a brick wall with that. I've known founders who were too charismatic for their own good. They were so good at raising money with bad ideas because no one felt confident enough to tell them they were wrong because the charisma was overpowering.

This is so anecdotal. There's no studies on this, but I have noticed for a guy's trying to get sober. The more charisma you have, the harder it's going to be. Interesting. Being too charismatic means that fewer people will hold you accountable.

And one of the best things you can have in your life is someone who doesn't fall for your charisma. I'm sorry. Why? Why? Why?

If she and your wife don't fall for your charisma, they're relaxing. But envy. I want to be happy.

“That's the thing that I was like, how do was one bring this up?”

It sounds so indulgent. It's a real real real problem. So the higher up you go in the ladder of status success, whatever it is, money, beauty, you name it. And charisma is a compounding factor. You will have to deal with an increasing amount of envy.

How do you deal with that? So the very, very best tool here. So the story comes from Ben Franklin. The science comes from Robert Cheldini.

Robert Cheldini on influence, if you can never get the guy.

He's the master on influence. I think I heard you talking a previous podcast about the four waltz technique with Adam Grant. That was from Cheldini. Cheldini is the man. So Benton and Franklin had this adversary that he was trying to get on board for a certain thing.

And so he went and he asked the guy to lend him a book. He told him that he had heard this guy had the book. Barrow it, the guy said yes, and a week later he returns a book with many things. It changed their relationship completely. The guy started talking to him better.

They became good friends. He was on board for the thing like everything changed. Here's the reason. Humans have an internal drive for consistency. So the guy who lends Franklin the book has two ways of thinking about this.

A, I agree to lend a book to a guy I hate. What an idiot am I? Or I lent a book to someone. It must be because I like him. Now you had a saying, Dax, which was it's easier to change the way you act your way into thinking different than thinking your way into acting.

Thank you. Yeah. We don't realize how much we are constantly constructing our self image. So now you're going to hack other people's brains. So asking someone for a favor is the hardest.

A device is less hard, but an opinion is the easiest of all. Because with advice, they still have to tailor it to your situation's responsibility. With an opinion, it's just something that they can give.

Impact it the way you think, change what you did.

This is how well it resulted. Give people responsibility for your success. It's saying you had an impact on me. Yeah. And the criterion of impact is change.

So it is your job to show how they have changed you.

“Because then if they feel that they had a hand in making you, then you must succeed.”

Yeah, they're now connected to the charisma and their linked. And to the success and then your success becomes their success. This is the reason why expressing appreciation gratitude has so many good reasons for it. But one of them is you want to diffuse envy expressing appreciation and gratitude is the way to show people the good things they have already done for you. It's a real tradeoff.

It's not the only one, right? There's the envy. You're held to higher standards. The Superman effect means that people start expecting you to be able to fix anything to be magic. And that is a real problem, especially at work.

If you stumble, then you fall much further.

When they discover you have feet of clay. One of the ways that you can diffuse that the Superman problem is by expressing vulnerability. It is one of the most humanizing things you can do. It is not something that will necessarily lower your charisma. But it is a really good way to remind people that you are human and fallible.

So someone as they're taking on this goal of becoming more charismatic, more influential and more effective in life. They need to also probably be thinking about also downsides are coming. You're getting the downsides. And having a game plan for that? And it can get pretty surreal.

I only had one experience of this. Back when I was writing the book, everything that's in the book I was practicing at that time. So I was probably code switched to 100% neurotypical, but I was doing all the charisma things. And I came out of the gym, go order a sandwich at the bar place. And the girl says, "I want to know how you became as wonderful as you are."

And all I had said was, "Hello, can I have this sandwich?" And this for me is not a normal experience. So this was one of the experience where I was like, "Holy shit, this fucking works." Like it really works. But then learning that you really have to turn the switch off after that.

Because otherwise you'll have the glowy radiance thing. You which can be great. But then everything else that comes with it. It's a big question. It really is hard not to get addicted.

In my case it's easier because when I do the full on normal charisma, it's exhausting. Yeah. Like you want to turn it off. Yeah. Whereas for others who are perhaps more neurotypical, I understand why it's really hard.

You know what? It is chemicals. You can get addicted to that, like to any other chemicals. Yeah. And that's high is real for you as well.

Oh, here's the other one that's really important. Both of you may have had this experience. If you've got it on full blast, people start spilling their guts. Oh, yeah. And then the backlash comes the next morning as their ego wakes up and said,

Oh, my God, what have you said?

“And then they hate you for the rest of their lives, right?”

Yeah. You said can be a very intoxicating experience to be with someone with a ton of charisma. And you can end up sharing in a way that you'll have a hangover for. You absolutely can. In a sense, it's like you're both a drunk on it.

And it's a bit like you're putting them under a hypnosis spell. They feel a little betrayed. Like you can use like put a spell on that before. Yeah. It really can create this cocoon of safety around you in which

time and space stop. And they just spill everything. So that is a real risk. Yeah. This happens on dates.

Yes. Where I do often feel sort of guilty after a first date. Because they have said a lot of very personal and intimate revealing things. And I don't. I mean, I do back, but it doesn't phase me in the same way because I'm used to doing it.

And so then they feel a lot closer than I feel. And then it feels like, Oh, fuck. I haven't done something wrong. So that is exactly what you get to, which is the asymmetry. Yes.

It's how important the moment was for them and for you.

Because for them, it's a, I've never had this experience of self-revealing with anyone before.

And for you, it's Tuesday. Exactly. I love this. We had a guest that was talking about a co-star who she was very charmed by and fell in love with. And then she noticed, he had that effect on everyone.

And she felt very betrayed by that. And I remember bringing this up. That I'm going to attempt to offer from his point of view, which is like, he's his him. And you're upset that he has that effect on everybody.

“But if he had it on you, yeah, that's what effect he has on people.”

You can't really get that mad about it. It's not just you that's going to experience that true. But at the same time, you, you have to learn the good strategies for giving them an offer. Yeah. So that they realize in the moment how much they're sharing and give them a way out of it in case they want to.

It is really in a sense. You're responsible if you're going to put them under this charismatic spell. It's your responsibility not to take them too close to their own demons. If they're not equipped to handle them, because not everyone is. And not to reveal too much of themselves that they may not be ready to reveal.

They just feel incredibly safe in that moment. Yeah. I do think it's the responsibility of the person to know what you're doing to the other person. And if you think it's fair or right or not.

It does, but it's super power responsibility. But when I first saw having these conversations with people. Everyone says, that's a good problem to have. I want to have that problem of people become addicted and all that. And I'm like, you're right.

It sounds great. I actually once fired a client who I will not name, but I fired him because of the swath of destruction that he was leading through his personal life. It was not using his powers responsibly. That's tricky because they're feeling their own voids as well.

And if it's approval, that's hard to turn off.

“Can charisma, though, does it have an end point where if it goes too far?”

People are like, oh, yeah, I don't like that anymore. That's a really good question.

I've personally never seen it.

I'm sure it exists. What I've seen is only when people try to fake it. Then there actually can be a, yeah. People feel it. Yeah.

But that's not because there was too much charisma. It's because the charisma in fact wasn't there because people tried to fake it. Yeah. No, I've seen people self-destruct because of too much charisma, which lead them to all sorts of bad decisions. And lack of accountability for so long until it becomes really terrible.

Oh, it's fascinating. I love that it's been studied and that there's great science behind what you now understand about it. An increasing amount, especially now with the online work. But most of it is US, EU, and a little bit in Asia. We don't have enough on Middle East Africa.

It's a very Western centric mainly science at the moment. Yeah. Do you think maybe these other places don't put up as much of a premium on it? I don't know.

“I think more in like an eclectivist society as opposed to an individualistic society.”

That's what I'm going to say.

I don't think charisma is a good signal. Yeah, they're possible. It's that is of course existing all humans. But it's not as important in some societies. Or it's imagine differently.

Yeah, it's not like possessions and achievement. And how good of a son you are. The West other relationships exactly. Yeah. So I'd be curious.

Good question. Don't know. Yeah. Well, it's all very fascinating. Olivia, you're wonderful.

I'm so glad that you didn't mask it all. Thank you. I enjoyed every second of it. The charisma myth how anyone can master the art and science of personal magnetism. And it's been reissued and we have some updated science.

And you have a really fun component, which is people who have read the book. Years ago have written in over the years. And you often are putting in some of the readers on experience and anecdotes with the chapters. I like that. I was there a part that gave you great pride.

I was there a part that you went off. Oh, yes. Yeah.

“So the first thing was that no one expected this book to go with this big, right?”

It's in like 23 languages or something.

I'm going to sell a million copies.

Like who saw it, right? Yeah, yeah. It's in Mongolian, for example. So especially because it is mainly Western science. I really didn't expect it to go with that international, but hearing from all over the place.

And there are some areas that were totally normal. Like, hey, I use this. It worked great in my dental practice job interview film. Right? And then I get emails like I didn't share his name in the book.

But this one medical student who used it in Turkey during the earthquake to keep the population calm. Get everyone working together, get different careers. How do you answer an email like that? Yeah. I don't know really some really humbling moments.

It's hard for me to take them in. So that says something about my own psyche. But there is sometimes when I'd get these emails that I could only read one sentence instead of time because it was too much for me to take in. Yeah.

And I literally have to read one sentence. Go walk around and come back to each another sentence. The life it's had has been stunning. The variety of applications we've heard from people in like Nigeria all over the place. And then I didn't expect the high schoolers to really take this to heart

because I really wrote it for adults. But it makes sense for job interviews for everything online. I think most adults by late 20s they've accepted whatever charisma level they think they have. Whereas in high school you're still hopeful. You are in a sense for me that's the tragic part because the reason I got into this is because

I couldn't figure out. I mean I was like I'm smart. I should be able to interact with these other humans and I can't. So clearly what are they doing? What's the thing that I'm missing right now?

Yeah. When can you turn out their science about it? One of the tragedies for me is the reason I desperately want this to be taught along signed reading writing and arithmetic is one democratized charisma. So it has less than impact.

But two so much of these are just ways to get people to more easily to connect with one another. That's it. All right. Well, thank you so much. Everybody check out the charisma myth. This was wonderful.

Thank you. [music] Okay. Let's, I want to tell the listener that I'm fresh off of falling in love. Oh, we had a great guest just now. We had a male guest done.

That's very, yeah.

I fell in love with a male guest.

It was awesome. Oh my God. I'm just a rough boy. I saw something. What did you see?

I want to talk about it. I saw the movie one night only. It's a romcon.

“I don't know who's in it or anything about it, please.”

Okay. Tell him, turn her Monica Barbaro or Barbaro. I don't know how to pronounce it. Okay. It's a romcon and I love romcon.

Yeah. No, I do. You were meant to. Yeah. In the end, I love it.

I saw the movie theater. It was fun. You and Jess, I appreciate it. Yes, Jess and I saw it. Totally fun.

You know, it's a romcon. There are things that can be better. There are things that can be worse. But it was enjoyable. But it did make me laugh because the very, very end.

The two characters are doing, I won't give it away. It's a romcon. Yeah. Okay. And they're up on this tower thing.

And you hear someone from the bottom of, you know, someone on the ground say, "Hey, you're in the shot." And there's their filming a commercial and these guys are in the shot. And he said, "You're established." And everyone is the theater.

Oh, in LA. We're in LA theater. Everyone laughs out loud at that. Obviously, hilarious joke. But I do think I was like, "Oh, no one is going to laugh at that in that land."

Yeah. Exactly. And I was listening to this other podcast pop culture podcast that was talking about this movie. And they were in New York watching it. And they had a very similar observation about a different job that you didn't get.

Or that, yeah, didn't resonate with me at all, that the whole theater laughed at. And I was like, "Oh, my God. Yeah. Movies are tricky. They're dependent."

On your shared vernacular. Exactly. So hopefully you just get them all throughout. Well, let's tell people, because they see it. So in a wide shot, every time you're watching, generally, when you're watching something

and starts with a very wide shot. So you're going to see the whole ballroom everyone's in and then everyone in the ballroom. So now, if someone was in that ballroom and we go to a close-up three hours later, we need the person we saw in the background. For continuity.

And if you're a clever actor like I am, you really make sure that you're always in a far corner in an establishing shot.

So you can get out of all those other shots.

“Yeah, but that just shows your privilege as a very good, very, very, very like, I think.”

That's just saying good. You could have just said lucky, you know? You're very good, and you're in a lot of really good projects, and you worked a lot as an actor. But the opposite happens when you're trying to be an actor. Oh, for sure.

You are dying to get in an establishing shot. If you're an extra, you are really trying to get yourself as close to the action as possible. Yes, so that you will be in all the scenes. Yeah. Because you don't have a trailer to go back to.

Yeah, but also know you just want your film. I know, but also if you're not in this scene, you're sitting in a fucking lawn share outside of the. Yeah, but you just want to be in it and you want someone. You want to see your face on you want to see your face. You want to see your face.

You want to see your face. You want to see your face. You want to see your face. You want to see your face and be like, who is that? And ideally someone that wanted to date you.

No, no, no, how did you become this? No, someone sees, hopefully it's David Fincher, right? And then he's like, oh, my, who is that girl? That person. Yeah.

I'm going to call the casting director for this commercial and find out who it is. I'm going to track them down and they're going to lead my next.

“Remember when Brad Pitt gave himself a line he said?”

Yes. Did you enjoy your meal or something after he poured the wine? Yes. God, it's so. It's sweet.

I mean, it can only happen at the beginning. It's very sweet. It's very sweet. Yeah. I can only say that because I did it.

You know, we did, we did a good job.

The first two fact checks back of going chronologically.

Oh, huh? You want to move on? No. I mean, I just want to have. I just don't.

We doesn't need to. You know, but yeah, tell whatever you want to tell. Well, just a lot of, a lot of exciting things happen this summer. And I feel like some of them are worth mentioning. Yes.

One of them. Well, so everyone heard about my poison ivy debacle. Yeah. But what I didn't get to. And, oh, I know why I want to say this is because our very first fact check back.

I was saying it was a bit different this summer. Right. Right. And one of the elements on the table was there were many, many house issues. Oh.

Which we did not have last year because it was Brandspank and new.

I also became very, very aware of how hard that environment is on house's versus LA. Uh-huh. And same with Michigan where I grew up. Yeah.

Yeah. LA doesn't have any weather. And there's no humidity. Yeah. And there's no insects.

We have fires.

“My dad pointed out when I told him this.”

Yeah. So either your house gets completely gone evaporated. Or it pretty much doesn't need much. Yeah. You know.

There. It's like after just one year. It's like the amount of stuff coming off the lake stuck to the house and the amount of insects and cobwebs. In fact, and I'm finding mice everywhere.

I open up anything. I'm finding dead mice. Yeah. And that's not an LA set. Oh.

Well, famously, I did have that rat. You did. But I'm in the. I'm in a dozen now, maybe. And just seven weeks there.

So we go on to dinner one night. Oh, shout out. And if you're in Nashville. When you're in Nashville next time, we must take you to this restaurant called Rose Cafe.

It was on a Michelin list this year. I don't think I got to start. But it's like a, it's a very, it's a fucking incredibly good restaurant. Yeah. And he's Nashville.

Cafe Rose Cafe Rose R O Z E. Yeah. And so we go on one night and then Lincoln wasn't in the moon to go. So she stayed back at the house. Well, while we're out, there's a pretty tremendous lightning storm.

“And so we get back to the house and Lincoln is like, well, I think lightning hit the house.”

And you know, you're trying to imagine like, okay, she was all by herself. It was a very intense lightning storm. Did it really hit the house? You know, or did it get close? Or, you know, you just not sure.

She had to totally sure. Next night, I go, let's, let's watch a movie in bed. And it doesn't work. You know, what's going on? I like really start investigating.

I'm like, hmm, it's really weird. Not the power lights not even coming on, right? It's just very rare. And that's weird. But I go, oh, I ship this, this isn't old one.

I shipped it from the LA house. Maybe it just ran. It's course. Great. Next night, I'm like, we all want to watch a movie.

Go on to the movie room. The projector's cooked. Okay, let's go into the living room and watch on the normal TV. Go to turn that on. It's cooked.

Okay. Now I'm like, what? Oh, my God. This has to be the lightning. So this in totality took out my irrigation system. My pool equipment.

Every audio video thing in the house. And it's still emerging. It's like I go to try something.

And I've never really experienced anything like this.

We're just smoked everything. I think it's scary.

“Now on a plus side, did you see a picture of my orange boat?”

Yeah, on Instagram. Or you showed me, but is it on Instagram? Right on Instagram, yeah, yeah, yeah. And I showed you, yeah, yeah. And I got to tell you that I really, really enjoyed having a boat.

And I want you know that your brother and I. I rather kneel. Iron weekly. Oh, sure. We did a hit 108. Okay.

You told me you weren't going to do that. No, I told you I won't go 125. That's what it's capable. Okay, okay. That's what it's capable.

And I must say, and I am a dare double. Yeah, I know. I don't know that I'll go above one away. Please. Can we like make a some sort of declaration?

Like you won't. I know you won't make the diversion because then you will feel bad if you do it. And then it's just dull. Um, it was a dream. I mean, the boat is like at that point, it's like an eagle.

It's just hovering on a little bit of air. It's as smooth as the boat rides. Is that one away?

It's an incredible piece of machinery.

That's too. But you know, the lake I'm on is a river. And at that speed, you're running out of river quickly. You're like, oh, turns are coming up. And you got to stay inside the channel.

And you know, it's you run out of real estate very quickly. Yeah. But we did have our little thrill air in an eye. And it was very, very exciting. And um, yeah, I just want to tell you about that.

That's great. Yeah. That's it. So I'll be free on the opposite end of flying, soaring like an eagle.

Yeah. I had, I, we put a pin in this last time. Um, the lettuce parasite. We think I had. So cyclists for a cyclist for a cyclist for a cyclist for a cyclist.

Um, I have good reason to believe because I had it for 10 days. P onus. Yeah. You were saying water balloons. Yeah.

Yeah. Water balloons because it's not right. It's, it's like, it was different. You know, I'm not a stranger to harness.

It's like I never get it.

I get it. But this was different. It felt different. It came with a lot of cramping. Yeah.

It was, I think I had a fever. Yeah. I think I had a fever one night. Um, so it was bad. Um, and then I ended up taking the anti parasite medication in a way.

thing killed exactly.

But what was always sort of, you know, a good thing about being ill is you don't,

you can't really do anything but like, lay in bed and watch TV and go to the people pot. Yeah. It's kind of a nice, excuse me. It's an excuse. It's a guilt free.

Yeah. Yeah. So, like the sick day lets go in here a little kid and you get to stay home. Watch green acres. Yeah.

Kind of just pause that for one second.

“What age do you think you start feeling guilty about TV?”

Because when I just said that, I was like, that actually isn't a good analogy. Because I never felt guilty watching TV. I was like, oh my god. I think God, I get to it. If I was in my dad's, he had cable.

I would watch the entire weekend when it's house. I never stopped watching TV. I never felt guilty. I still don't feel guilty unless I have something I'm supposed to be doing. Okay, but if you have three days off and you spend it all watch staring at your TV,

don't feel guilty. I don't feel guilty. No. I feel sometimes I'm like, oh, you feel like shit. Yeah, I got to like get out.

I got to see what my kids do that. They are different human beings. But it's also part of life. It's just watching a whole show in one day. You know?

So I did that for two shows. I watched, I watched one show in a day. And then the next day I watched another show in a day. And it was great. It was great.

It was great. I loved it.

Now the first show, ding ding ding, was blackbird with.

You're on a tear. This is before a tear. It was, it wasn't before. It was after. It was after.

It was after. It was after. Yeah, but it was before we just talked about it. Yeah, but it. I don't know what that is.

I thought you were saying. What I'm saying is you Google search him and now you watch his show. Anyway. So he. So yeah.

Okay. Yeah.

“I wanted to consume because that's what this show does, right?”

You've learned about people and you're like, I like them. Like, I want, I like them. I want to support their work. I'm going to go back in time. I'm going to find it.

Yeah. Plus I was really in the mood for a thriller. Okay. So I, I looked online at what are the best thrillers I've seen so many hours. Yeah.

And I saw a blackbird was on there and I was like, oh, that's tear and show. I'm not watching. Yeah. Watch the whole thing in a day. Ooh.

And the show is so good. It's based on a true story. Do you know about this show? Yeah. Did you watch it?

Yeah. I haven't. But yeah. It's a guy that starts working inside of a prison to get reveals some other crime, right? Yeah.

There's a guy in prison who's a serial killer and he has these bodies buried places. And it is up to this guy to find out where the bodies are. Yeah. And it's based on a true story. And it's so good.

And he is great. The serial killer is. That's his name. You call. Call Walter Houser.

Call Walter Houser. Oh, I know. I mean, he's great in everything. He is so good in everything. Pursuit.

Pursuit in a movie with him though. Yeah. Queen pens. He is so good in this and so scary and so creepy. But you also kind of feel bad.

I mean, it's such a good performance. And I just don't think the blackbird got it to do cred. Yeah. You know what I realize when I'm traveling. When I'm not in either New York or LA.

It occurs to me that not a lot of people watch Apple TV shows outside of here. Yeah. Because like people, of course, I'm in Nashville where I've been. Are you are you acting? I mean, I haven't for a long time.

But actually I did just do this thing bad monkey. Never heard of it.

I got something I've never seen Ted Lasso.

And I'm like, but yeah. Yeah.

“I think a lot of people don't have Apple TV.”

Maybe. But I would recommend getting it. And I'd recommend watching Blackbird. And then the next day, I watched Paradise Season 2. I had been holding off for no reason whatsoever.

I loved Paradise Season 1. Are you sure you didn't start that before we wrapped for the summer? I promise. Okay. I've never seen it.

Okay. I want it. I was like, oh, I should. Why am I not? Yeah.

I had a weird mental block. Yeah. This happens. Thank God for Cycle Esporra. Because I watched that entire season in one day.

Mm-hmm. I can't believe how good that show is. That is great. It's such a good show. For so many reasons.

Acting, plot is, it's hooking. Uh-huh. I love this girl.

Yeah, she's really great. Like, she needs to win that. I think she's nominated. Okay. I'm just saying that.

Okay, go. You're fast in your vote. Yeah. It's so good. And it's poignant.

“And then on Instagram, I tried to play one of the scenes.”

But it didn't let me. Because there's a really good monologue from our friend, friend of the pod. James Marsden. I'm so glad he was in season two. I was so afraid he wouldn't because he's dead in season one.

That's the premise. Yeah, exactly. And I love his character. And then you forget, yeah, that showrunner's big thing is flashbacks. This is us was all flashbacks, right?

Well, I've never watched it.

And guess what? Did you start it? I don't know. You should. Yeah.

I still can't cause a parenthood. But tell me if it's good. Well, it's got to be great. It was an enormous hit by a great showrunner. I know, and sterling so good.

Yeah. That being so good. It is top notch. Now, let's say, one thing that got in the way of our full enjoyment of it was we would have never known this. But, you know, the guy, okay, Shane Lane would leave Baby Daddy.

Yeah. He's so hot, right? Yeah, he's honest fuck. Well, Lincoln is like, it took her an episode. He was in descendants.

He's this in descendants. Oh. He, I can't remember what she's saying. He's saying. Yeah.

Well, I don't know.

“I don't, to this day really know what was going on.”

But she couldn't get over that. We watched it as a family. And you were anytime that guy was, um,

It was never say she did like a vein to it.

So then it became a bit in our family. Okay. As soon as he'd have a scene, I'm like, "Where do I know him from?" And then the same initial enthusiasm.

No, no, no, he was a bad, he's bad. You know, this dissentance thing. Yeah. So almost everybody's taken out of it. Just a little bit taken out by this.

And I'll go, "Yes, I understand he is in descendants." And you never know what, how in on bits are they? Yeah. You know, because they're, they're very clever. I'm like, "Is she fucking with me?"

Or she's really just can't get over the fact that this guy was in descendants. I don't know. Yeah. She's old enough now that I don't know. Because I love fucking with my parents.

Oh, I didn't. You didn't? No. But I just think she probably was really excited about it. Yeah, she just never, never made it.

Did you do that? I don't know that every scene. I think once I connect the dogs. I'm not copypacing, but I'm saying when you are excited about something. Uh-huh.

You're so excited. Yeah. And then you are excited for like a week. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah, she and I share that. Yeah, you share that. We're two peas in a pot. Yeah. Oh, ding ding ding.

I've been starting to get curious even though I said I don't care. I started getting really curious, like, when will bad monkey come out, right? Yeah. Like I was in the last episode in February. Yeah.

Just yesterday, I'm cruising through Instagram. And I've seen announcements that it's coming back. Yeah. And then there's a still events in I. Oh, fuck.

Mono, we mono, and I got really excited. Yeah. So they look like such a shithead of that. And so it turned out Ryan had auditioned for that role, right? And we were on a hike.

And I, and I, and I learned this. Yeah. And I said, oh, what's, what was the, like, like, like, what's the audition? He's like, um, well, yeah, it's like he uses nunchucks. And I was like, oh, fuck, this guy uses nunchucks.

I got to get nunchucks. Oh. So I bought practice nunchucks. Okay. You know, they're padded instead of like hard wood.

Uh-huh. You bunk yourself. And when I was a kid, I was obsessed with nunchucks. Of course, no one would buy them for me. So I went to the, I went to the hardware store and I bought a thick doll.

And I cut it all doll.

“That's what you call long round piece of lumber.”

A doll. Yeah. Okay. You can think of little dolls. Yeah.

You can feel the holes. But they come in different diameters and gauges. So I would, I got a thick doll. I cut it in half. And then I bought, you know, the screws you put in your ceiling

to hang a plant from. Like an eye hook. Mm-hmm. I screwed those into the ends and then I got chain. And then I made my own nunchucks.

So when I was a kid, I had my own nunchucks. Okay. And I was spitting them around and practice. And occasionally the threads would come loose. And the piece of the doll would shoot off and go through the piece of drywall.

Like, you know, because I didn't have the real one, and then I go get a bigger eyelet, re-screwed in there. Anyways. Okay. So I bought these nunchucks, practice ones.

To practice in case my character used them. It turns out my care. I don't know where Ryan got that.

It was never brought up to me anything about nunchucks.

But all to say, I have these nunchucks lying around. And Lincoln saw those. I was like, I'm all too afraid. Really? She couldn't wait to start swinging those things around.

And I, she did exactly what I did to my mom. Which was like, mom, mom, look at this.

I need it. My mom to be watching how good I was at nunchucks.

And so I have watched Lincoln do nunchucks. I don't know cumulatively several hours now. And I'm looking at her. I'm like, look at me. Look at me.

Look at me go. First of me. Well, I'm glad you. I'm glad that's the end of the story because I was about to interrupt and say, "Boys, boys and their nunchucks, they're obsessed with nunchucks."

Yeah. It's like a universal boy thing that we want. We want throwing stars. We want to switch played and we want nunchucks. It's so irritating.

But I love that this was a twist and your sweet daughter is also obsessed with nunchucks. And then the one time that it really did benefit me is she, you know, occasionally, she's certain someone's under her bed. I'm like, I'm brushing my teeth on the other side of the house and she comes. She's like, yeah.

You got to come into my bed and I'm pretty sure someone's under my bed. I'm not, I'm not, I'm not stopping my brushing my teeth. There's nobody under your bed. The doors are locked.

I would have heard something.

I go through logically how that would be impossible.

“And she's like, now you need to come and I go, and then I go,”

"Just fuck grab your nunchucks." And she goes, "Yeah, okay." "Wink grab your nunchucks." And she was willing to go see if anyone was under her bed because she had her nunchucks. And I was like, "Well, this is great."

Now she's now she thinks she can take on your nunchucks. I thought I could do too. Yeah, you still do. She also wants to switch blood. Okay.

I thought it was nunchucks for the longest time. Yeah, and I think cloak will lead. That's what they referred to. But they are nunchucks. I know.

I just looked it up. Kind of like Yin and Yang is really Yin and Yang. What's the Yin? Most people say Yin and Yang. Oh, that's wrong.

It's wrong. But cloak will lead. That's what they say. I don't, I'm not on board with saying it wrong. But you're familiar with people saying, "Yeah, it's the Yin and Yang."

You know?

I think I always thought they were saying Yin.

I was just when you say it fast, Yin and Yang. No, Yin and Yang. I always say Yin and Yang. Wow. I haven't heard Yin and Yang in a long time.

It's gone by the wayside.

“What do you think that's prevent replace with because it means both, right?”

It means both. So what are people saying now? Or it's like that tension between Yin and Yang. Yeah, Yin and Yang to me is more like opposites in tension. But they're together.

They're stuck together. Yeah, they're stuck together. They're stuck together. Like they're us. Opposites attract.

But does it attract to you now? I guess you'd say like they're, they're opposites attract. Yeah. We circle back. Yeah.

I don't like, I don't like cigarettes. And I like to smoke. Right. Favorite line on the ceiling. Only in the 80s would you have someone screaming from the bottom of their heart.

How much they like to smoke? And it's like a good lyric. If you were that today, you'd be like, what is that person? Well, actually now. But that five years ago, if you heard someone singing a ballad about how much they love to smoke,

you'd be like, what is this song? Stay tuned for more armchair expert if you dare. I have another dinner party tonight. You do? Yeah.

Second of the week. I know. And this shows.

“I don't know what I'm making, and it's coming up.”

You know, so I'm a little stressed about that. I have, I am in a, I mean, I feel good right now. Mm-hmm. You're good right now. But I, I have been in a little bit of a funk.

You use a new adjective this week. I can't remember. I said, I'm gloomy. Yeah. I think I say that a lot.

I like gloomy. It feels more playful. Oh. You know, it feels like, feels like there's some hope. But yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Because gloomy. Like if you're really devastated, you're like, I feel like fucking shit. Or whatever you say right.

Right. But gloomy is a little bit like Halloween's also gloomy. Chants of meatballs. Chants of meatballs. There's always a chance.

The weather is gloomy. Well, I hate that. Yeah, I love those. I know. But like gloomy means there will be sun again.

Yes. You know, it's temporary. You acknowledge the temporary. Yeah. I knew this was temporary.

But I was like, what is going on? Because it felt hormonal, which is not the right timing for that. Right. Because last week, and you concluded your fly is as you took. Yeah.

I finished my fly. So actually, this week should have been really, really not gloomy. Right. It's like the only week you get. And unfortunately, it was gloomy.

And. And also like my stomach is hurt all week. Like physically. I don't feel like all that good. And and I'm my birthday is coming up.

And I'm like, who is it like my birthday? Am I feeling like upset that I'm aging? Yeah.

I do. Well, are you. I just go through these. I don't know. Go on at a time.

See, I do think there's a a a a a a confluence of things that are causing the gloom.

Um. You can a birthday happy birthday, Carly. I love it. Yeah. So I have this birthday coming up.

I've done zero planning. And I don't really like want to do any planning. But I also don't want to be gloomy. So I do want to have things to do. So maybe I just feel a little overwhelmed by that.

But also, I don't normally feel anxious about age.

“But I think I am feeling a little anxious about this.”

Is it fertility related? Well, okay. So that's another element at play. Uh-huh. Um.

Because, you know, it's home and my my brother's sweet busy. So cute. Oh my god, is he cute? They sent me the sweetest picture yesterday of him.

A little dodger's outfit. Oh, my god.

Why is he in a braves outfit?

I know, but, but they came to visit when they came to visit. We went to a Dodgers game. Oh, you did it. Oh, one. Oh, fine.

Yeah. But he, um, oh, also just. It's quick side note. My parents are well, it's actually not a side note. It's related.

My parents are, um, you know, just so who are they? You know, it's like who are these people. I don't know that many more. Yeah. In a great way.

They're so thrilled and happy. And they have new life in there. Oh, I know. New love. Yeah.

“They're, they're, they're bucket just got wider.”

Yes. And this, this baby. Um, there's a video.

My brother sent us a video of Emily his wife holding Fizzy.

And my brother is like pushing a little ball towards him. And then Emily is like, you know, maneuvering his feet. Moving his feet to like for him. Yeah. Yeah.

Holding his foot in moving it to like kick the ball back. Yeah. And, um, he sends us this. And my brother said a star in the making. Yeah.

Thank you. And my mom was like, Oh, my God. He's handling the ball so well. Oh, that's what she said. He's handling the ball so well.

I was like, dark as she means it. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. She really means it.

And then my dad was like, save this video for when he becomes a star. And then we can show. And I'm like, what? Who? They're just like, they have this new baby star.

And we all do, I do too. I'm obsessed with him. I'm going to, I was like, we need to face time. This weekend. I need to see him.

Which this is, I think all part of the glue. I'm right. Okay. So I'm home. And I'm seeing my parents so, so, so happy.

Yeah. And I do think it instigated a little bit of like. I didn't put up that. I didn't give them that. Mm-hmm.

Um. Quickly, just remind you. They also weren't retired. They just retired. I know.

But it's still, I don't know. It just is like, oh God. Like, yeah, that's, this phrase is not the right phrase. It's like, there's no competing with that. But there is like, not that my brother and I are in any competition.

But it is just like, oh yeah, there's no. That's the only getting bringing someone new into the world. That is them. That's an extension of them. Yeah.

And so, I think I did feel like. It's the only head you have.

“It's the only thing that could possibly comfort this tragedy.”

We're all going to experience, which is that we die. And the only thing that can comfort that is like, oh, but I'm still alive. You know, like, I'm still alive. Yeah. We are still alive.

Yeah. You don't like that. I don't know. Yeah, I could see on your face. She didn't like.

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. Yeah, I could see on your face. She didn't like. Yeah, I don't know.

I don't like it because I don't have it. Yeah. It's obviously like I don't. Anytime it's like it's the only thing that's hard. You know, like that's anyway.

So I think it started there a little bit. And it was a great trip home, actually. It was such a fun trip. I had so much fun with my parents. Like we had a bunch of just us dinners.

Everything was great. But I think I did leave feeling like. I wish I'd given them that not instead, but like to also. And it feels kind of weird to be so far away when all this is happening.

And he's going to look different.

And I'm missing out on like. I'm going to go on. Thank you. I've. I.

Because I also have a life. I mean, this is all part of this is part of the tension. Like, I like my life too. And it's not. Yeah.

I don't know. Anyway. So there's just like things to think about. Not really to think about. There's just things for the glue.

There's emotions. Yeah. And maybe they're not. Perfectly identified yet. Yeah.

Probably not.

I don't know if they'll ever be identified.

No, you can identify. No, I don't. I don't know. I mean, yes. I'm not saying that you can buy knowing everything.

Avoid these unavoidable. Yeah. I'm going to feel it. But understanding specifically what's going on helps. I think helps you process it all.

And put it in the right boxes. Yeah. For me, it doesn't go like, oh, right. That's that thing. I know that.

And I've had this experience. You know, in that box where I'm putting that thing. There's a bunch of other things from my past. And I go, yeah, I don't know. I find that company.

And it's like, yeah, that's that old thing. I know that thing. And that's this thing. And like, yeah. Yeah.

“I mean, I think part of it is like, I have lived this life.”

Obviously for me. But also for them. Like to make them proud.

To have the things that to relieve them.

To create safety. Like these things that I did do. And I'm happy about that. I'm proud of that. But I think there might be a piece now that I'm like, that doesn't matter.

Like, maybe that didn't matter or that doesn't matter anymore. And so I think I don't know. I think sometimes when we have the, I think sometimes when we have these conversations. It's easy for me to sound like,

everyone should have a baby, right? Because I've had such a great time. I can only share my experience with it. And it is what it is. And I like to be honest about what it is.

Yeah. But I also think it's quite okay for both things to be true to go like, yeah, that's not for me. I don't want it. That's not what I want to do. Also, I'm honest about the fact that there will be some complex processing of that decision.

Yeah. Because you go, I don't want it, then end a story. You'll have these moments where it's like, oh, yeah, I'm going to die. And I won't, no, that's a real moment. And it's okay to work through that and process that.

And doesn't mean your decision is wrong. It just means like, it is the reality of it. Yeah. And I think it's fine to feel those ways.

“And it doesn't mean you should regret anything.”

It just means like, yeah, that's part of this kind. And then on the flip side, you shoot off to London and you do whatever and you float around. And you're just like, I can't do that. No, no, no, no, no, no.

Times where I'm like, oh, I could really be letting it rip if I wasn't all day long responsible for people. So then that's the thing that I've end deal with. Of course. There are plenty of things, there are plenty of moments. These decisions come with a lot of predictable, you know, outcomes.

Either in either direction. Yes, I think I have plenty of moments that I'm so grateful that I don't have children. Yeah. And then yes, there are these times, but also, but it's interesting. Typical two things.

One, I don't know that I don't want it. That's it. That's like, if I was very steadfast in that. Mm-hmm. Maybe it would be easier.

Maybe it would end. I don't know. But I think it's just like weird, limbo-y thing that is hard. Very hard. Yeah, if I were female and I was in your exact shoes, I think my fear would be like,

I don't know if I'm going to regret this. That's the anxiety. It's like, currently I don't think I'm going to, but also I'm smart enough to go like, I might. And that's a very scary feeling.

Yeah. Right. I think that's where the action is.

“It's like, am I just fearful that I'm going to go, fuck, why didn't I do that?”

It doesn't even speak to whether or not you actually want to do that or not. I know. Well, none of it does. And you don't even know if you, you might not regret it at all. And none of it does because even these feelings are not really about me.

Okay. I mean, like, with the feelings around my family are not really about me. They're about my parents. So it's still not answering anything for me. It's not like, oh, oh, like, I want this.

Yeah. That's not happening. It is like, oh, my God. When you're with other babies, you like them.

You like to play with them.

“You don't leave and go like, oh, my ovaries hurt.”

I mean, it's not a little. Okay. I know. No. There's no like, oh, I'm doing this.

Yeah. There's no like, you don't leave going fuck. I'll just be like, me and I'm making a little bit. There's not that. Yeah.

And then there's not like, oh, but I'm happy to give them back. All right. All right. So it really is this very nebulous area for me. Yeah.

If I had a husband that I was in love with. Yeah. I would want a kid. Yeah. That I do know.

So then there is this like. Yeah. But you don't really want a husband. I do. I do want a husband that I'm in love with.

I'm sorry. I'm not saying, I, I feel like I'm going off of what you've been saying a lot lately, which is like I'm very happy single. I'm not trying to. I am. Okay.

I am.

I have a very happy full life that I'm grateful for.

Mm. And I don't really quote want for anything. Right. But it would be my preference. To be madly in love with a husband.

Yes. Yeah. That would be my preference. Sure. That would be impossible.

It feels like, well, what I definitely know is I much rather be single and happy as I am than with a husband. I'm not in love with it. And let's even, by the way, you could be madly in love with a husband. Mm-hmm. And then the shit will hit the fan.

Of course. Right. Like, it, it, it also, not unlike parenthood. It's like it's. No, I'm not living in a fantasy.

Yeah. That marriage is like, I mean, I mean, real partnership. Yeah. And I don't mean madly in love in a fantasy way. I mean, like, really in love.

Yeah. In, in a partnership or your team. Yeah. And you have each other's backs. And you, you'd fight and you've recover.

Like the therapy. Yeah.

You're a therapy and you do the thing that you're committed.

Yeah. I, that's my preference. Yeah. But I will only do that for some, not, I'm not just doing that for any old person. Oh, yeah.

Anyway. Do you think that might be part of the gloom? Because the weather's nice. Yeah. Yeah.

All the other things you do. You would know to, to look at the, the usual suspects are not present. So you're led to believe perhaps. It's about that.

“I think it's, I think that's in the stew.”

I think weirdly like me just like not feeling very well. Like I've been like sick all year. Yeah. And that is unsettling. Mm-hmm.

Make sure feel vulnerable. Yeah. I don't know. I just, I'm in a little bit of a gloom. I heard this coming up.

And maybe it will lift. Yeah. When my birthday comes. Yeah. They say 39's a magic here.

Because it's three times three equals nine. Okay. Yeah. There's some magic there. I like that.

Well, we can find the magic. So there's nothing to do with three and eight. That adds up to 41. No, because. No, it doesn't adds up to 11.

And 11's lucky. Oh, I think they just say 41. I didn't make sense of my ad. Anything. 11's lucky.

38 plus four. Three is 41. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. What's lucky? 11. 11. Yeah.

Here's favorite. Everything's lucky. Yeah. You know, you can find it. If you look for it.

Yeah. The vulnerability thing is funny. Because for me, it's not objective. So like, yeah. Last year, I was sick from November to January.

Eight. Mm-hmm.

“And I was starting to go like, do I have a terminal disease?”

Yeah. Right. Like, I started. And because I can't see it. I don't know what's going on. It starts to eat at me.

Yeah. But then I'm covered head to toe this summer. And boys and Ivy, everywhere I go. People can't believe we've got the beach. I can't believe you're doing this or on the boat or do whatever.

Yeah. And I'm like, oh, this doesn't even register. Like, in my mind for whatever reason. That's like, I don't even register. Right.

Maybe you know what it is. I'm clearly vulnerable to this oil. They got all over my body. Right. But I don't.

It doesn't trigger the thing for me. Yeah. But I think, don't you? Is it don't you think? Part of it is because you know what it is.

You're like, oh, yeah. This sucks. But it's poison. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Maybe that's part of it. That's part of it. I think also just seen versus not seen. Yeah.

And then also like feeling. Run down. What is that? Yeah. It's just a bad.

It's just kind of makes you sad. Yeah. Glomine. Yeah. And I am of the age where I have, you know,

I have more than one friend that are in trouble. Health wise. I know. And so. Are you going to the doctor enough?

I'm not sure. Oh, I'm going to do this. I'll tell you what hit the fan this year.

Uh-huh.

We got a bad big enough for all of us to sleep in.

Uh-huh. And Nashville. Where are the who's right? We also. Last summer, we all slept in the same bed all summer.

Mm-hmm. This summer. That was not happening. Lincoln's older. She's in her room.

That makes total sense. And then slowly. Of course this summer. I'm getting kicked like Delta sleeps next to me. And I'm just getting kicked in the middle.

I don't know. It wasn't like a shit. Dead shot. Oh. Oh.

So apparently I started begun snoring. It happened. I know man. Some of this aging stuff is a man. It's like two things.

“How can I be simultaneously losing my hair and growing here everywhere?”

I did what is what kind of fucked up trajectory is that. Like I'm working out the other day. And I happen to have my shirt off.

And I look in the mirror in the sun.

Which, you know, went across. Yeah. And I was like, Jesus Christ. I'm going to shave my back. Like what's going on with my back?

Right. See her everywhere I look now. There's hair. I think it's going up to my eyes. I'm not going to shave like above my beard.

And I'm like, why am I putting drops on my head? All day long to keep this hair. But why? Right. So that's one thing.

And then there's snowy thing. I don't nothing happened to me. No, this is age. It does happen to everyone. Women too.

So now I'm complete. No one knows sleep of me. Right. By the end of summer. No one's sleepy.

Everyone's sleeping. Okay. And no one's even me anymore at all. Right. And so also funny enough.

I almost posted this. Like, I come in. This was like mid summer when I went bailed. I look at my pillow.

“And there's like two boxes of those breathe, right?”

Street strips. You put on your nose at nights. Oh, yeah. So I start putting those on. Okay.

Didn't do shit for me. I think it helps other people. So anyways, am I going to the doctor? I'm going to an ENT. Oh.

Yeah. Mid September. Wow. You can't bore out. Get in there and drill out whatever is going on in there.

You know, make it wider or something. You're going to get a nose job? No. I mean, maybe the time. No.

You know, I probably have a deviated septum. I've had my nose broken and a fight. And I did cocaine for years. I'm sure it's a mess up there. Yeah.

And so I'm going to have. I don't use that thing that you used to use. That's what those breathe strips do. I know. You used to have an actual life.

I know. Yeah. It's called intake breathe. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. I just stopped, you know, kind of like our guest this week. I asked her about her nighttime routine, which was extensive the last time we interviewed her. Oh, no. No.

I don't do anything. I'm kind of like that. I don't know why. Yeah. But anyways, I'm going.

Now that's a tricky thing. If they got to really get in there and do some proceed. Yeah. Are you going to do that? I mean, you want to make this a little us bulbous?

Oh, my God. That's a good thing. Okay. I'm just being on it. I know.

I'm not going to. I'm just doing it. But you know, I'll tell you what I'm not going to do. Because I think it would be embarrassing for me to have clearly a new nose. I would just be embarrassed.

I don't think that's embarrassing for other people. For me, I would feel embarrassed. I love nose jobs. They're beautiful. They're very proud.

Now, all truth be told Jesus materializes in the operating room. And he goes, I can reduce the size of your nose by 11.1%. You won't be able to tell and you'll be able to tell. I think so. Then you're a hypocrite.

Because you're always telling everyone else, like having characters, what's like attractive.

Yeah. So I just don't believe you. I would say to myself, I would say, if I knew me, I would go, what are you doing? Look at your ex-girlfriends. They're all beautiful.

They're all intelligent and had great personalities. They all liked you. What's to fix? You're on television. People don't complain.

I know the argument. But if I could have it 11% smaller for me when I look in the mirror. And no one ever said anything. I would like that. Yeah, that's what everyone wants when they do these things.

Do they? Because sometimes I'm like, well, there's no way you thought anyone's not going to know. No, yes. Everyone thinks that. Everyone thinks like, yeah, we're just going to do a little bit here.

And then like, I'll like it. And you all have a button, nose and no one will notice. Yeah, not a button, but like, yeah. I'm getting one. Well, like, let's put it this way.

I'm getting one. My nose is crooked.

“You know, fight it got broken to the left, I believe, right?”

So it is crooked. If when I go see the person he's like part of the big reason is that your fucking nose is crooked, I need to break it and set it straight. What's that? What is that?

What is that? Is that nose jump? Yes. Okay. And, but it's literally returning it to how it was before they got hit me.

Yeah. Because now this is your nose. Your nose nose. Your nose is your nose. Your nose nose.

And, if who knows why any of our noses are big and small, whatever.

So my voice could change, right?

I don't get this huge echo chamber on the front of my face. I might have something to do without my voice. Like, one of my came on here and I was like, people are saying, I got a new nose job and I didn't. I didn't.

I had a DVD and it's up to them. It's not helping with the glue for some reason. The nose. You didn't like me talking about my DVD. Because I wanted to accept them.

I want to nose job. You do. If you consider it. Yeah. We've talked about this.

No.

“I think we've all, I think you and I have both said we would prefer different noses”

on ourselves. But I've not heard you say, I've been thinking about getting a nose job. I haven't heard about that. I've been wanted. I wanted what my whole life.

I've been wanting what my whole life. I have.

But I have told you this because I told you the reason I won't do it

is because my dad is very against it in case I die. He thinks if you go under the night, like for him. For him. For electives. Yeah.

And something happens to me. Yeah. Then he'll tell me. He'll be mad at you. Well, yeah.

He said he said very sweetly because he doesn't say nice. He doesn't. He's a very vulnerable. He's not very vulnerable. He's just not very vulnerable.

So one time I said, like, I'm getting a nose job. High school probably. Okay. Maybe college. And he was like, no.

You're not doing that. Again, for like, don't choosing to go under the night, blah, blah, blah. And then I said, well, if I don't do it, then I'm going to hate myself. Well, the rest. No, no, no.

I said, if I don't do this, I'm going to be miserable for the rest of my life.

Uh-huh. And he said, it doesn't have to be true, but continue. He said, if you do it in something happens, all be miserable for the rest of my life. Well, that's true and fair. And I am not willing to put him at risk for that.

“Rob, can you look up how many people die from Rhino Plasty a year in the US?”

People get infections from past. Looks right out. Don't do Rhino Plasty. Don't do nose job. Guys, what we're talking about nose job, right?

The mortality rate for elective plastic surgery is about one death per 100,000 procedures. Okay. And we didn't do nose job specifically. I did. It doesn't like that.

It doesn't try. So plastic surgery. By the way, that includes, like, people have their face taken off and then re-assembled. You know, there's, like, there's very extensive plastic surgery. There's people that get these button injections in a fucking questionable country and they get an infection.

Yeah. I'm not saying it's common, but he's right. It could happen. It doesn't about rate is per 100. It's not the point.

Don't be mad at me. I just want to know this. Okay. What's the death rate per 100,000 for the common cold? Virtually is zero.

Hmm. Because that's better. So if you're choosing me between a nose job and a common cold. Also, you aren't choosing a common cold. That's the point.

That is literally the whole point. Anyway, I just, so I decided I wasn't doing it because of him. But yes, I want when I hate my face. What do you mean? We all know this.

This is not like new information. And it totally discounts the veneers. It kind of is new information because I know that you hate your face. Walking to the club. But I did not know that you were a value, you know, a considering a nose job.

Since I was two. Okay. That's like, I came out the womb. Okay. Okay.

Okay. So Olivia, this is for Magnet charisma. Very cool. Yeah. Very cool episode.

“I think people are going to want to read it and implement it.”

Of course. And I hope, if you do, you use your power for good. Yeah. They're really like very few facts. She was incredibly knowledgeable.

Yes. She said in chemistry, you need a certain amount of each element to get to activation energy. And so then I looked up how much. And it said there's no set number for activation energy. It changes for every chemical reaction.

Some reactions need very little energy and happen fast. Other reactions need a lot of energy and happen very slow. Mm-hmm. I was not very good at chemistry. I mean, I did okay, but I struggled.

It's hard. Poof. It's hard. It is hard. I can't remember it was at meal fees.

But he was saying virtually. We learned in the wrong order as children here. You really start with animals and biology. And then you work your way to physics. Is it physics and chemistry?

No, no. It's biology chemistry physics. Right. And he said it's more intuitive to learn physics. Which create chemistry.

Which creates biology. Oh, interesting. Yeah. One is leading to the other. But we start.

We go top. Top down, I guess. I mean, I think it makes sense. But it would be so hard to start with physics. Physics.

Yeah, yeah.

Yeah.

But it does make more sense if you got all those rules and you go right.

“Now that you understand it, that's how these elements come together.”

This is why they come to be living. Yeah. It makes sense. But I don't think a ninth graders brain. Or second graders.

Because you're learning about animals and biology and elementary school. That's true. But I mean, in high school, that's the order in high school. Yeah. 9/10/11.

For me, for my school. And I was so, well, how physics was so hard for me. Still is. I'm reading when we see to understand the world a book about physics. And, man, is it just...

Did you ask, yeah, what parts are fictional? No. Because I had no idea some of that book is fictional. Which parts? That really scares me.

It does. I took it all as... As real. Nonfiction. Yeah.

I didn't even know that part.

How did you learn that? People talking? It wasn't in the cover? I think... I think it's on the back.

Really? I'm audio book, so I don't... Oh. Yeah. I mean, maybe I'm wrong.

Let's double check. I hope you're wrong. Mm. Blun's fact in fiction. To explore how major scientific and mathematical breakthroughs such as quantum mechanics

and chemical synthesis border on madness and bring destructive raw consequences. Well, geez, I hope that the Heisenberg thing is in completely... Mm. The historical baseline is real, but the inner turmoil and epiphany is fictionalized. That he just...

Uh... Invenstromatic dreamlike internal states, such as Heisenberg feeling his brain split into two... Oh, that's... What a discovering matrix mechanics to capture this psychological toll of grasping complex science. Oh, wow.

That's the one I like the most. We just don't like it. Yeah, it's like the idea of touching madness and you come out of it with these matrix that makes sense. But you don't know why. That's...

It makes me believe in God. Right. I know. But anyway, physics is wild. Oh, it is.

And I can't wrap my head around it. And I'm okay with that. That's the other thing. Yeah, I just ran an article in yesterday. It was like the Hubble has exposed that our understanding of the universe is completely wrong

in a lot of areas. There's a bunch of different stars that we're supposed to have expanded slower towards us, that we've now observed through Hubble.

“So there's right now, there's this kind of crisis that I think in physics, where it's like,”

"Wait, how are we explaining all this shit that Hubble just observed?" Because that's not our current understanding of what's happening. Oh. Her book has been translated into 36 languages. The myth has how anyone can master the art and science of personal magnetism.

In what's crazy, there's only 32 languages. Should I ask? Isn't it like a thousand dialects in India? Yeah. How many languages are there in the world?

Oh, wow. Approximately 717 known living languages. 90% of which are in India. I mean, definitely at least a thousand. They have.

I was talking about that when I was with my parents. It was weird because we were discussing how Indian last names you can tell you where they're from. Mm-hmm. Where geographical? Yeah.

And it's just interesting that we don't have that. No. We had a lot of occupational names. Yeah. Shepherd, Smith.

Right. But that's outdated. I guess it's all outdated sore. But you're stuck with them. Yeah, stuck with them.

But my last name is a declaration of our, at one point, our livelihood. I just think that's interesting. Like, if you hear someone's in the last name, you know if they're from the north or the south. Like, it's wild.

“Yeah, but that's getting all fucked up here for sure, right?”

Because you have the, um, the patels. Yeah. They've taken over America. No, no. It's not like, no.

You don't, sorry. You don't know whether they're from the north or the south in America. No, no. No, no, I know. Okay. Yeah. Yeah, I'm just saying it's here.

Here's different. But that's what I say. Here in general, you can't know anything about that. But if, if you know someone, last name is Patel, you know where the region that Patels are from. Yeah.

Rob asked what the most common last name in India is. In India. Proper. Not outside of India. Well, it's going to be hard.

There's so Debbie. What do you say? Debbie. Debbie. Debbie.

Debbie. Debbie. Yeah. I'm not lazy. No, but that's the most bug.

That's the first name, though, isn't it?

Uh, most frequent surname. Oh, listen, also the names in India are very confusing. Hmm. People take the last name that someone's first name. Like, it gets a very complicated.

Yeah. It's different. And then sometimes they're past maternity and sometimes the wife takes the husband's first name.

Hmm.

So there's a lot going on.

Nermy a joke. It would be normal a joke. Yeah. But she didn't do that. Okay.

I like that, though. No.

“They have St. Kumar, Debbie, Sharma, Patel, and Gupta.”

Gupta. We know some Gupta's, Sanjay. Um, that's it. We know it. Nambiar is popular.

That's, uh, my mom's main name. What is it? Nambiar. Nambiar. That's beautiful.

Nambiar. Nambiar. Nambiar.

Um, so I just thought that was interesting.

We can't do that here. You can't hear someone's name and note a thing about them. Regions in India change a lot of things. It changes the language. It changes often.

Not always. But like skin coloring. Background. Like there's, it's interesting. You know a lot immediately.

Do you think in year 30, 86? Uh-huh.

“But people be like Debbie Uber and Glenn Uber.”

Cause that was a popular occupation. No. Okay. I don't know. Okay.

They're not inventing the uniless names.

I'm just trying to think of very modern occupations. That might. No, you don't. Do you have a computer. Do you have a computer?

Do you have a computer programmer? Podcast isn't that different from Padman. No. It's really close. Yeah.

We're from the South. Do you want to hear something embarrassing? Always. You know what I had fantasies. Yeah.

Yeah. You just went. Yeah. No, I have a lot less.

“It's a little more boring life, I'll say.”

Okay. Anyway. So I used to when I was trying to be other people and stuff. And when I was young and like writing stories a lot. Mm-hmm.

And giving people names. I really liked Shepherd as a last name. You did. I did. And I wanted that.

Did you know was there a Shepherd at school? No. And that's I don't know how I must have known someone or heard it. Then when Derek Shepherd on Gray's Anatomy reiterated that. Okay.

Yeah. That was the character's name of the actors. Patrick Dempsey's character. Okay. So just letting you know.

Okay. That seems serendipitous. I know. Yeah. No.

God's Sam. Sam. It's lazy. All right. Love you.

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