265: Screens, Toxic Stress & Staying Connected with Dr. Nadine Burke Harris

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“Rina, I think a lot of people feel like they just don't know how to connect to their”

kid anymore. I'm Rina Nine and welcome to ASLisa, the psychology of raising tweens and teens. And on Dr. Lisa Demor, we bring you science back strategies for managing anxiety, discipline, intense emotions, and more. We decode tough parenting issues with tips you can use right now.

To subscribe to ASLisa, the psychology of raising tweens and teens, and join our YouTube community today. Just Google, Ask Lisa podcast. We're here to help you untangle family life. Friends, I'm very excited to share this special edition of the ASLisa podcast.

It's a conversation between me and Dr. Nadine Burke Harris, the first surgeon general

“of the state of California, and the expert on adverse childhood experiences.”

This is a live conversation that we had at the Common Sense Summit on Kids and Families. Enjoy, episode 265, screens, toxic stress, and staying connected with Dr. Nadine Burke Harris. Hello, hi, so happy to be with all of you. I have the tremendous honor of recording a live episode of my Ask Lisa podcast with Dr. Nadine Burke Harris, goddess of the first degree, who I love thinking and working with.

So Dr. Nadine Burke Harris is an award-winning physician, researcher, and public health leader who has spent her career on the front lines of some of our world's most pressing public health challenges. As California's inaugural surgeon general, Dr. Burke Harris successfully launched a first in the nation statewide effort that has trained more than 45,000 primary care providers

on how to screen for adverse childhood experiences and respond with trauma-informed care. I know, I know, today she serves as the Chief Impact Officer for ACE Resource Network, a national organization advancing a bold vision to make the prevention early detection and evidence-based treatment of toxic stress a standard part of healthcare practice in the United States.

Beyond that, she is also an avid gardener and finds joy in engaging her four boys in garden adventures.

They grow fruits and vegetables you put together amazing floral arrangements, and you treat

this as your ultimate stress buster. Yes, that is absolutely right, thank you so much, and I feel like we are the mutual admiration society. Oh, yes, I'm so happy to be here. Well, now I've known Nadine since 2019 when I had the honor of introducing her at the City

Club of Cleveland, I live in Cleveland, and then we just had a really good and productive time in Madrid together in January on behalf of UNICEF and the World Health Organization working on child protections worldwide. So, right. Good time.

Okay, so we put out a call for questions to my audience, and I have several, but I actually

want to start with one that is really, really central to the work you do, which is about kids and toxic stress and becoming overwhelmed, and all of us know that a lot of what can be outlined can be either highly violent or sexual or disturbing or otherwise just flooding for a kid.

“Can you talk us through sort of with that online context?”

What it means for a developing nervous system to have that kind of exposure? Well, what we know about the science of toxic stress is that when we have repeated activation of the biological stress response in absence of adequate buffering caregiving systems, that can lead to a disregulation of the body stress response, which when we think about stress hormones almost every cell in our bodies have a receptor for stress hormones.

So these hormones act almost every cell in our bodies, and when that happens repeatedly, what we can see is changes in the way our stress response functions, and that leads to changes in the way kids brains develop over time, but not just our brains, our immune systems, hormonal systems, and even the way our DNA is red and transcribed. And so that is what doctors now refer to as the toxic stress response.

And where that relates specifically with an interacts with online content is that because

have something that is activating or stressful or flooding, and it's delivered in this very

personal way.

“Not something that's seen on the playground, right?”

It's not something that oftentimes is witnessed, it's this direct interaction between the youth and the media that they're consuming, that the adults in their orbit may or may not be aware of. Which then really undermines the potential of a buffering response. Exactly.

Exactly. And particularly, if kids are not wanting to talk about what they saw or not trying to not share, then that creates a particular risk. So one of the big themes for this summit has been about the importance of regulation, and this is reason number 400 for the importance of regulation, and I also think thinking about

“this as a clinician as a mother, one thing I think we should recommend is that if kids”

are online that we should say, you may see things that keep you up at night, that are very jarring, I am here to talk and think with you about those you don't have to carry it alone. Does that feel like the right way forward? A hundred percent.

I think that, I mean, that is the conversation that I'm having with my boys. And as we talk about content, and you know, one of the things that's really interesting, and I'll just, I'm going to actually offer an example that is actually a real life example. I think that one of the very tricky things about online content is that it may be presented in a way that our kids don't know what to do with, right?

So, for example, one of my boys was, he told, he's like, oh, hey, mom, I want to tell you this joke. And it was a joke that he had heard online, and it was a really racist joke, incredibly racist.

“And I think part of the reason why he told it to me is because he was on this platform,”

where it wasn't presented as a racial joke, it was presented as funny, and when the guys who told the joke, they were, haha, haha, and they laughed, and so my, my son internalized, like, oh, this must be funny, but I think he also felt this, like, ha, this makes me feel weird. And I will tell you, when he told me the joke, I immediately burst into tears.

Because it was, it was, it was pretty horrible.

Yeah, first of all, I am sorry.

Second of all, speaking as a psychologist, what I have known about when kids do that is that they see something online, and as you describe the context, they're like, this feels wrong, but the context isn't signaling, it's wrong, right? And so then they're like, is it, my misunderstanding, or is there something wrong? And so then they bring it to an adult and they repeat what happened, as it happened, I'm

going to do the thing, but not give you the context, because they want your gut check, but they don't want to have led the witness, right? I think that's often what's happening. So they're like, I'm going to do it the way it came to me and see if you have the reaction that I had, deep inside, you do, okay, I wasn't in the wrong.

And it's so critical, right?

All of that is horrible up to the moment of him taking it to you and you being able to say, oh my gosh, that was so far out of line. Yeah, I'll tell you, I burst into tears for a couple of different reasons, one because the joke was horribly racist, but the second was because as a mom, I was just like, I can provide, like, as a pediatrician, as a pediatrician, I can talk to my kids and say they're

going to see uncomfortable things online and open the door and I can make sure that we're really connected and I know the data that shows that that's the biggest protective factor for kids online is a connected presence in real life. So I know that as a mom, I was like, how do I keep these people out of my house?

So we know that not all kids are having the same experience online, that kids of color

are having a different experience than kids who are white and that it often involves discrimination, sometimes directed at them, it often also involves witnessing incredibly disturbing things. What are the kinds of conversations you've recommended as a pediatrician or had in your

“own home about this and follow up, what would you have all of us do?”

So the conversations that I'm having with my own kids are these conversations about being an upstander, about recognizing that these things are out there and then also recognizing how everything, my kids run around and be like, like, and subscribe, so it's like to not. So really kind of voting with your attention and those types of things.

But also taking a little bit of time and this is one of the things that I recommend to

families to be able to break that down a little bit and understand that it is a commoditization of our attention and to be able to look at what are the dynamics that play there, why are we seeing, like, why is this content being promoted, and so how do we essentially train the algorithm of, like, do not send me this nonsense, right? And this is not, this is not valuable content.

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If you see a post purchase survey, be sure to mention that you heard about cozy earth right here. That's code Ask Lisa for an exclusive 20% off, because home starts with mom. Those kinds of really clear conversations at home, I think we can't be having them enough. One of the ways I've heard it talked about and talked about it with my own adolescence

is these are advertising companies. They make their money by collecting more and better data on you. And the way they do that is by creating content that keeps you there with no regard for the impact of that content on your health and well-being. And we just have to say those things over and over because they are hard to understand

and the stuff does seem fun until it's not. Right.

“And it's a little bit of, I think, particular, there's a little bit of that like, you”

know, playground effect where particularly the consumption of digital media is challenging because when our kids are consuming it, they're not in a circle on the playground to look

It's just them interacting with the folks who are producing the content."

“And so that's where that got check comes in and that's why my son brought that particular”

question to me. And this is like really preparing our youth that this is what you're going to, this is what you may see, this is what it's designed to do. And here is, you know, what you can do to vote with your attention. I love that.

Okay, so we got questions about just, you know, being overwhelmed by all of this, which we can feel for sure as parents and caregivers. We also got a question, I think a lot of us have, about the tension between wanting our kids to be shielded from all of this, not wanting to give them access for all of the reasons we're talking about and wanting them to know what their friends are doing and

being included in stuff. And one of the questions we got is, "I don't want to give my kid a smartphone, but all of their peers are on WhatsApp." So how do you think about that tension between, we'd really rather not, and also, the

“way I think about it is social media is bad for kids, social isolation is bad for kids.”

How do we think about that? So as a pediatrician in public health person, I am the person who one of our boys is 13. And actually, our two older boys got phones when they were 13. And I feel, and they're nine years older, and I feel like in between what landscape has changed a little bit.

My daughters are seven years apart, and I agree. I have 22 year old and a 15 year old, and we're dealing with two different in and out. Yeah, exactly. And so we did a contract with our now 13 year old, and we did a contract with our big boys when they got their phones.

And it was like a contract for digital citizenship and all that stuff, and we can look at your phone, and this is not a private space and all that kind of stuff. Because now 13 year old, we did a contract a year before he got the phone. I have never heard that. That is super smart.

A year before he got the phone, and we said, OK, here are the risks and the benefits of having a phone, and here are some of the things that we want to see before we recognize your developmental, that we feel like you're developmentally ready, and this is going to be hard for some people to hear, but actually at his 13th birthday, he wasn't able to meet all the terms of the contracts, so I got pushed back by a year.

Good for you. And so now he's getting ready for 14, and a lot of the pieces of it are these pieces of like coming to us, what there's concerning content.

“When we say it's time to turn it off, actually turning it off, not sneaking, right?”

If you're sneaking, that's going to push back here. And so all of these things we had this agreement to steward healthy behavior. And did you do it around his handling of video games or what was the test drive? The test drive is that it was around his, he has an iPad where he does his screen time, and it was around his use of his engagement with just screen time, as it is, right?

The techie already. Right? Versus a phone that he's going to have in his pocket all the time. OK, this is brilliant.

To unpack what's in there, first of all, different kids need different rules.

As a clinician, I have made recommendations to families with two kids in the same family. That child will be fine. That child probably can't have a phone till he's 18. Right? I mean, it just depends on who you're looking at.

And I love that you set the developmental markers that you made clear what was necessary, and that you held the line, which I'm sure was such a bummer for him. It was really hard for him, but I think it also, like, he got a clear message that, "Oh, Mom and Dad are serious about this!" And the other thing that we did in the interim, which is something that I kind of love.

I was talking with him about how a lot of the media interactions are designed to release dopamine, right? And that, you know, keep you connected in the work, in the engagement. And I'm not making this up, and listen, I'm going to say it's my household, and I'm like,

I say it's the public, I'll first say it.

But literally, my 13-year-old came to me, and he was just like, he also loves music,

from the drums." And he was like, "I found another dopamine-release system that I love,

even more than screen time." And I was like, "Yes! Go right ahead, Matthew's about kiddo." Oh, that is fantastic. What I also really love in this is that it's not a no, it's a yes one.

“Yes. And I think that so often, as we're trying to navigate these waters,”

we want to hold the line, play the role of the, you know, the adults in the room, without damaging our relationship with our kid. And I think it's really hard on kids when it's just a no, an arbitrary, and they don't know what they need to do to make it happen.

So I love that you were like, it's a yes one. The other thing, I have found really helpful.

Actually, let me back it up. One thing I found frustrating in the discourse about technology is we've talked about things as though they are a monolith, like a phone, right? No phones have a lot of levels of possibility. And so when my younger daughter was in this sixth grade, her sister went to college and they have a really tight relationship and they needed their

“own channel. And so I gave her a phone at 13, which was younger than I actually met 12, right?”

Then I usually would have, it was an old iPhone of mine with no browser. We don't talk about browsers are where so much goes off course. You don't need to have a browser on the phone. No social media apps and no ability to add apps without permission. And so it was a texting machine. It was a photo taking machine. It was a music machine. And one thing, we know, I got to do a survey and got these data. The number one way that kids regulate a motion is actually by listening to music. And so

it's such a powerful force. And I think when we say no phones, I'm like, well, for a lot of kids

are taking away actually music. That means a huge amount to them. But I think that that's part of navigating this tension between my kidneys to be connected. But I don't want them to have the whole wide internet in their pocket. Well, you can set phones up that way. And even give them.

“And I think this was important. I know there's all sorts of options for phones that are”

dumb down. In my experience, kids are like, no, I want to be able to have the device that my friends have even if you strip it down to very little. Yeah, that's right. So combining that with, as you're saying, one of the challenges is that the relationship with media and phones and device is also often a source of just parent child conflict, right? Parents are setting these boundaries and the kids don't like the boundaries and they think the parents are stupid

and they don't know. And so one of the things that's really, that I find to be really helpful, it's not just saying the no. And also, you know, with the contract is giving a very clear like these are the habits and behaviors that will lead to a yes or that will lead to increased privileges. But also, I really like to just ground as much as possible facilitate a sense of care, right? So when I'm talking with our kids about it, one of the really important things for me to say is just like,

hey, street, you have heard all the stuff that is out there about media and all the stuff and I love you so much. And as your mom, one of the things that I really want to do is support you to be a smart and healthy consumer of media. And so what that means is that we are going to work and put these things into place. And we're going to do this together and really kind of unpacking some of the why behind the what so that it's not just a no, but it is, even if kids don't agree,

to be able to understand a little bit more about what our intentions are. So it doesn't just feel like, oh, she's terrible. I'm going to elevate something in that, the way. So when we are so scared for our kids and when we're seeing headlines that make us so scared, I think it's very easy to feel like there's the kid and the tech and I have to stand between them, right? It's me versus the kids desire for the tech or the kids interest in the tech.

It is so much more effective to do what you've done, which is it to kid you and me against the

I was at his schools, speaking, and they warned me, I was about to speak to all the students and

they were like, oh, just FYI, we're putting it in a phone band tomorrow. They're super grumpy about it. And I was like, okay. And I hit it directly. I said, listen, I understand there's a phone band.

“And I said, I understand that's not what you want or some of you may not want it. Here's the thing.”

There is nothing your phenomenal teachers can put in front of you that can compete with us. You all want to learn. You all want to grow. The bad guy in this is not your interest in the tech. It's that the tech is so compelling that it stands down to remind the education you're here to get. So you and the school are working together to make sure you can get the education you came for. It's not that the tech is something you guys are the bad guy. That's how it often gets framed

without a lesson. It's that the tech is designed to be so compelling that it can bring all sorts of harms into your world that you don't want and we don't want for you. Right. Right. That's exactly right. And I will even like it's fabulous that we're sitting here at the Common Sense Media Summit.

“Because I will sit down and look at some of the latest information or some of the”

information that Common Sense puts out on, you know, in Star or whatever. And I'll sit down and look at it with my kids and say, hey, what do you think about that? What do you think about this that what we're learning about how the tech companies do engagement, right? Because from a public health standpoint, we saw this in the 90s with tobacco. It went from don't smoke and you're a rebel and you're a bad kid if you smoke to the truth campaign, which was like, why are tobacco companies

trying to get youth hooked on cigarettes? Right. And what cost? Right. And so it was really starting to look at, you know, not the adults who know better against the kids who are having a cigarette. But it was like, well, let's look at the way this industry is designed to make money off of getting kids hooked. And that's the conversation that I'm having with our boys. And that conversation, so David Yager at UT Austin has done beautiful work. If you show kids how they're being

manipulated, they become more resistant. Right. So it's such an easy way to walk into the like, you and me, kid, versus this highly manipulative industry. The other thing you said that I don't want to not underscore, kids can be grumpy about this. Yes. And it's fine for them to be grumpy.

“And I think it's makes more sense to us as adults. We're more accepting of their grumpiness.”

If we consider the alternative, which is you said to your son, look at all of these things. And this is why I love you. And we're not going to do this. No teenager worth their salt is going to say, I am so glad that you have surveyed the data and decided to restrict me. I really appreciate it. And I do feel your love, right? So I think, you know, the way I roll that, I make up goofy things all the time. And I had these four hours of putting in rules for kids or making

behavior change. First, you, um, what was the first one? I have to remember the first one. But the one of it was, um, it was like, expect, you know, give them a rationale. Right. Here's why. Then you make a rule, um, oh, a approach with respect. That was the first. Like, don't come in,

like, you and your kids and your phones, whatever, that never works. So come in and say, look,

I know this is an incredible device and really alluring. Then a rationale. Here's my worry about this. And here's the data. Then the rule. So we're going to hold off. And then be prepared for resistance and do not take a personally. Right. So be prepared for resistance. And I also think that there's an opportunity in resistance, right? So there's, uh, there's an opportunity to have a conversation around. Okay. I can see that you are not happy with this rule. And I'm, I'm going to hear what

you're saying. And also, uh, we're going to have a conversation about how we treat each other when we don't agree with what we've decided. So you can be mad and you can express that you are mad. You are not allowed to emotionally abuse me because you don't agree with, so how do we, so there's also just a natural, teachable moment about how we address conflict within our households. All right. There is nothing that my family hates more than seeing bugs in our home.

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ask Lisa for an extra 10% off. That is beautiful. Okay. We also got some questions about appearance, comparison, you know, this is so much part of what happens online. Here was a question we got. My daughters are 16 and 18 and because of SNAP, they feel they need to be made up all day long. So what would you say to this family? What would you say to these girls? Let's start there.

“Yeah. I mean, I think that one of the, what I would say to these girls”

as a starting point is how do what do they want for themselves? Right? How do they want to move through the world in terms of we recognize that young people, they want to look good, they want to compare well with their peers, they want to appear attractive to whatever, you know, meet that they're interested in. There's a level of, but we also want to think about like a level of self-kindness in terms of how do you care for yourself and the way that you would care for a good

friend. Right? And is that thinking about, is that how you would want to, like if your, if your friend came to you and said, oh, I don't think I'm, I don't think I'm pretty enough or I feel like I have to wear makeup all the time. Is that how you choose your friends or is that how you would want to have someone that you care about be judged, right? And really unpack that a little bit and unpack what they're worried about, what they're concerned about and then how they can show up in a way that

feels healthy and authentic to them. The idea of saying like, what would you, what would you say to a

“friend in that same situation? I think, you know, it's such a beautiful way to recognize that”

all teenagers have a couple sides, right? They have the side that's like, I can't take a snap because I don't look good. And that same kid has a side that is incredibly philosophical, is incredibly thoughtful who can spool out a profound, a profound understanding and guidance to someone else. And, and I think that that's the challenge without a lesson's in particular is they show us sometimes one side and we can forget about the other side and we can respond to the first side like,

you don't need to do that and that doesn't, you know, whatever and you're, that's being superficial and what I've learned clinically is the side of the kid you talk to is the side that comes into the conversation, right? So if you start with, why are you doing that? You don't need to do that, is it a, the kid will defend it, right? Like, well, you don't get it and you're not having

the conversation that kid could have and I have always felt as a clinician that I'm at my

best but also working really hard when a kid puts in front of me a side that I don't like, right, either they're doing stuff at parties they shouldn't be doing or acting in ways they shouldn't

“be acting and the energy it takes that is always rewarded if I'm like, what's over here now?”

I remember one time I had this kid who was not showing very good judgment in my practice and was telling me about the party she was at and finally I said to her, what is a spark girl like you do when it a party like that? You know, and she showed up, the smart girl showed up and we worked together and it was really like as cool a moment I've ever had with a teenager. Yeah, one of the things that I think that I love about that also is this question

that I like to ask young people a lot which is like, is this something that you're choosing for yourself or are you are others choosing this for you? I love that, right? Because it gives them

I'm worried about other people's judgment or am I choosing this for myself? And I think that

we may not like the answer that they give because sometimes they may be like, yeah, I am choosing this, but it encourages that reflection, well, I think the more that we ask that question, you know, after a while, you know, when we're not around, that question will pop up in their brains, oh wait am I choosing this for myself or someone else choosing this for me?

“So important you said that because again, I think people feel like if I don't hit”

paid her in the conversation, it didn't work and I think that we need to give kids time and room to decide for themselves and reflect and have that actually be a private experience, right? That it's not natural to add a lesson to come back and be like, you were totally right. I actually had a very funny conversation with my 15-year-old actually right before I came here. Last week our cupboards were bare and you know how sometimes you do your best cooking when you have to invent.

So she didn't have anything for lunch. I was like, I'm going to make you the best turkey sandwich ever and I made a great turkey sandwich. There was avocado and we had roasted red peppers in the fridge,

like all this stuff I never would have done if I had more food. And so as I was leaving to come here

to California, I was running to the grocery store and I said, do I want me to get you a bunch of turkey? And she was like, no. And then I, you know, when shower, whatever and then as I was headed to the store, she's like, actually get me a bunch of turkey and I said, it's the worst when your mom's right isn't it? And she's like, it's the worst. And that's teenagers and that's where we love them, right? But you know, the, the, the words that come up over and over again in my household,

between my, between my husband and me, and it's, I was like, oh, that sounds developmentally appropriate.

“Right? Because I think that we, we really also have to remember that particularly at a lessons”

is a time, like the job is to individuate from your family of origin, like that living with that. Right. Well, they know what's actually wearing. Right. Yeah. So that's the developmental task. And I think that for for many of us as parents or caregivers or aunties or adults interacting with youth, it can, it can feel like that's the, like, that's this big obstacle. When, in fact, I think that that's actually our, our friend, like it's just understanding that's what they're supposed

to be doing. The, a, a young person who is 100% compliant is not going to be a very functional, right, adults. We don't want to see it. Right. We don't want to, I like that. Spicy, right. I like them spicy. And what I will often say to families in my practice is adolescents is a very complex time that your kid is working their way through. Adolescence is not something your kid is doing to you. Right. It feels like it's doing to you. But that's actually they have their own work to do

and you're pulled in. All right. To expand this question about appearance. So we are seeing new things happening around boys and their appearance and the online version of this stuff we

have never seen before. Right. I mean, and I have cared for all adolescents for a long time. I've

spent a lot of time caring for girls. I'm seeing stuff with boys. I'm like, what the hell is this? You're a mama for boys. You think in these worlds? Like, what are you seeing? What are you thinking? What do you recommend? Um, I mean, I honestly think, um, it's wild. I mean, this is a podcast of people that can get to see my eyes get really big. You asked that question. We're getting video too. Yeah. Okay. And on the one hand, it feels really, really new and a little bit like,

oh my gosh, another thing. Right. That we have to be worried about. And then on the other hand, I really think that a lot of the same fundamentals apply. And those fundamentals include,

“I think that the, the, the, the strength of the connection, IRL, but it real life is protective”

and and confers resilience in the digital world. And then also, as much as we want to say, that looks like a bunch of nonsense. One of the things that I find helpful is kind of resisting my urge to say that. And, um, and engaging in with curiosity, right? Like, oh, so what's going

want to try? And just as long as it's not involving harm, right? To the extent that we can, um,

“kind of create a safe place to play, right? Oh, so you're, you're, you're, you're, you're trying”

this on or you're, you're playing with that or and really exploring and seeking to understand. Oh, okay. So what about that is, is interesting to you, right? I think that that is just a healthy way for, for parents and caregivers to try to respond. I'm going to pull the technique that you're doing, um, you're doing something that, you know, like, if I could get more clinicians who have my training to do it, it would be great. Um, you're doing a couple things. One is, as soon as we're

saying to kids, what do you think about that? Right? They know us well enough. They know we don't

ask that kind of question about stuff we feel great about, right? So you're actually, and I think

“it is important. I think that, you know, they kind of can wonder is this okay? And this is like,”

well, what do you think? Right? That they're like, okay, there's a check in the column of, like, people I know interested in who love me are not comfortable with this. And yet, it leaves open the room for them to explore. It doesn't back him into the corner of what, what is this garbage? And, you know, in the witch coin, the kids like, you don't get it, right? And let's some also back out of it, right? That they can be the one who says, right? I think it's weird, right, or I don't

write. Which is where we want this to go. We want this to go there. So it's such that question of, like, huh, what do you think about that? I think stands as one of the most valuable questions we have in all of parenting and raising kids because it does so much work so fast. So that is exactly right. The safer the container we can make to explore this stuff that our inside voice is like, no, no, no, no. But our outside voice has to create a place for it. Otherwise, it is more likely

to go underground. Exactly. Yeah. Okay. We're going to wrap up with a giant question, a hard one. About AI. All right, we've had a lot of conversations at this summit about kids in AI. We have a lot of worries. We have a lot of uncertainty. I am thinking about the population of kids that you care for. Kids who, the, flying my teenagers using right now who have really been through it, really been through it. When you think about kids who have already been exposed to trauma,

who have already been through situations that no child should ever be in, and then you marry that with the availability of AI or companions, what do we need to be thinking about?

“This is a place where I think policy and infrastructure really make an important difference”

because for kids who are, so first of all, the data is pretty clear that for kids who are

struggling, that they're at much greater risk. Right. And when we have algorithms that are designed towards engagement and designed towards somewhat addictive behavior. And particularly when we're going into AI where there is a lot of that, you know, that follow-up and going down, going down in a particular way. Processive, assuring. Right. Exactly. Different from that thing we've seen before. Exactly. This is fundamentally a safety issue that when we recognize, and I will just say,

just looking at the data around ACEs, which is my area of expertise, when we recognize that two thirds of Americans have experienced at least one ACE, one in six, have experienced four or more ACEs. We have to build systems that make it safe for that one in six to engage with material. Right. And if it is not, if that one in six is at much higher risk or much higher vulnerability, we have to have guardrails around safety and what that looks like and how these platforms are built.

Okay. So I'm going to wrap this up. What I hear us saying together in policy regulation, especially when we think about our most vulnerable citizens, the power of relationship and also relationship and relationships too in terms of keeping kids safe as a buffering force. Our kids are

is the best bet for keeping them safe. I want to thank you for this conversation and I also just

“want to thank you not only are you incredibly brilliant and great at what you do, just the sheer”

creativity that you bring to child protection. Right. The way that you think big in novel systems

and novel approaches to scale, love of kids, to scale protection of kids. I have so much admiration

“for who you are and how much much good you do in the world. So thank you. Thank you so much.”

All right. Thanks everybody.

It has does not constitute or serve as a substitute for professional psychological treatment,

“therapy, or other types of professional advice or intervention. If you have concerns about”

your child's well-being, consult a physician or mental health professional. If you're looking for additional resources, check out Lisa's website at Dr.LisaDemore.com.