March 2026 Three Things

- Hi everyone, and welcome to Baton Paper Podcast.

“I'm Olivia Mentor, and I'm Becca Freeman,”

and today is a three things episode. - Very excited. - What kind of things have you brought? - Give me one word. - Oh gosh, I have one writing thing.

I have one serious thing, and then I have a reading thing. - Okay, great. A true battle of reflection of Baton Paper interests. - What about you? What's your one word summary?

- Random? - Okay, I guess they're all pretty random, but easy and fun, I think, too. - Okay, all right, tell me you're high, and let's kick this off, let's get into it.

- I had a few highs to choose from this week, so it was a really good week, but I changed it at the last minute to this conversation I had yesterday,

“and in preparation for this episode of Little Pod”

about GG, the owner of this bookstore in the outer banks who I've talked about on here who passed away suddenly, a couple weeks after our interview, we decided we wanted to turn into a tribute to her.

So we ended up finding her family and some of her friends and her brother George ended up emailing me to let me know that she had passed, which was very kind, I already knew, but he somehow found me in her inbox,

'cause she and I had been emailing, and he let me know which was very sweet. And so we ended up talking to him yesterday,

basically just to fill in some gaps of her bio and stuff,

but it ended up being like a two hour Zoom conversation, with this hand in George who is a retired nurse and lives in West Virginia, and just the absolute most lovely, sweetest, kindest, most thoughtful man.

And we laughed, we cried, he talked so lovingly about his sister. At the end, I told him, I wish, you know, I hope one day my brother talks about me like this, like it was just the most moving conversation, 99.9% of which I'm sure no one will ever hear,

but it was just one of those moments I told Jake after,

“like, one of those moments where life is really distilled”

and really simple, and it's just about coming across people who are so kind and generous and have their own interesting lives and histories and stories, but you find some sort of connection with them. And I just had this moment where I was like,

so strange that a month ago, I would have never met this person,

never heard of this person, and now here we are, just talking for two hours on a Thursday. But yeah, it was just such a bright spot in my week, and he's such a cool person. And I was never really close to any of my grandparents.

My mom's parents died before I was born, and my dad's parents were very old, so I never lived far away, so I never really had a relationship with them. But I don't know, George is just such a lovely, sort of grand father, leave figure, and it made my week.

So it was a really, really nice conversation. - Oh, I'm so glad you got to have that experience. - Yeah, cool man, but what's your high? - My high is that last weekend, I just had such a lovely time exploring my new neighborhood.

So I only moved like 20 minutes away from where I used to live. I moved from Williamsburg to Clinton Hill, still in Brooklyn. But just because of the way the subway lines work, it wasn't a neighborhood that I was super familiar

with before moving here, and when I moved in,

it was bitter cold the first weekend.

The second weekend I had friends visiting for one of my friends to go wedding dress shopping. The next weekend was a blizzard, and so this was really the first weekend that I didn't have plans, and there was an extreme weather.

And actually on Saturday, it was probably 45 degrees, and everyone was acting as if it was 65, that was just how much Stockholm syndrome we have from the bad weather, and so it was so lovely. On Saturday, my friend Jess came over to see the apartment.

We went for a really long walk, and then we tried out a new restaurant in the neighborhood, right by my apartment for an early dinner, and then also on Sunday, I went for a long walk. It was just so exciting that the weather is starting to warm up,

and then I have new environments to explore. - I was leaving the gym the other day, and it was like 40 degrees out, and I rolled the window down the sun was out, it's so energizing.

And you have a new space to be in the new weather, which just, I feel like is the best. Are there any places that are on your radar where you're gonna check out next in your neighborhood, or are you just kind of discovering in real time?

- Oh my gosh, so many, I don't know that I have a prioritized list,

I just started saving things on Google Maps,

“whether they were restaurants or stores,”

or just places I wanted to go. So I have quite a lot of things on my radar, but I'm kind of just letting the wind take me where it will. - I like that. - Easy breezy.

- Yeah, yeah. - What's your low? - I don't have a low. I'm feeling really good. I'm highs only this week.

What about you? - I debated mentioning this or not, but my real low is that when I was leaving the gym in my moment of just, you know, I go in door fins, window rolled down, sun out.

I looked in the rear and I was being pulled over. I got a ticket for holding my phone in my hand. I was recording a voice note, and he was like, you were waving your hand around wildly, which I do talk with my hands, that good deal.

But I was like, I wasn't texting and he said, well, it defeats the purpose of a hands-free device if you're using your hand. I have not been pulled over since I was 18. So I was pretty bummed.

I also didn't know that that was a law. Like I had no idea that you're not allowed to even have your phone in your hand, but apparently not. So anyway, that was bad.

So that was my low, but I wasn't running with the law. I didn't see that coming. - Yeah, learn my lesson. Jake looked at it and technically it applies to phone calls that are happening in real time,

which it was a voice note. So I was not talking in real time. So I mean, we could fight it, but do I have the energy for that probably not? But yeah, lesson learned, I did not know that.

So I will be sending less voice notes, I guess, on the move. - Three. - Yep. - Well, I'm sorry about that.

But let's take an ad break, and I'm let's get into some things. (upbeat music) This episode is sponsored by Caraway. I have all things kitchens on the mind lately,

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Caraway, non-toxic kitchenware, made modern. (upbeat music) Olivia, why don't you start us off? I love the idea of you having random things. I'm curious to see what's in your bag.

- Yes, okay, my first one. I debated whether to give you warning on this or not, but I think I got no warning listeners. (laughs) No, I think not having it.

“I think you'll still be able to come up with something.”

So I want to know things from your childhood that you loved that have aged very poorly or aged very well.

So this would be songs, TV, and I can go first.

- Yeah, you got to go first. - Okay, so things from my youth that I loved deeply that have aged poorly, the show won't not to wear. I was still with, I would have done anything to be part of that show professionally,

to be friends with Clinton and Stacey. When I think back to like TV shows that I watched every single time, I saw it on cable and it was playing. What not to wear is number one.

I loved it so much. And I've rewatched it since like clips here and there. Oh my God, it is not maybe as bad as America's next hot model, another thing, by the way that having revisited it recently

because of the Netflix documentary, did you watch it by any chance? - No, but I've heard a lot of friends talking about the documentary. - It's horrific.

I remembered some of it so clearly, but like imagining my 11 year old self-washing it,

and have all my issues with body stuff and food because it's so messed up. It's so deeply messed up and so many levels. Anyway, but very similar, we're not to wear, though probably not quite as controversial

in some ways was just a hot mess

“that I think has aged incredibly poorly.”

But at the time, I just thought, this is the greatest show that's ever existed. These outfits are great. Everyone needs a skinny belt to define their waist. Stripes are horrible, obviously.

I can close my eyes and see that weird studio set with the mannequins and the outfits so clearly still. But I can picture that closet where it was like

and always mirror that they made them stop it too so clearly.

- The 300, yes. Yeah, and also the amount of times that they surprise people who were like, oh, I kind of like how I dress or you know and they were like wrong, wrong, wrong. We need to fix you.

Yeah, so I think that has aged pretty poorly all around. And then I was gonna get to the thing that I think is aged well. - Oh, okay, yeah. - Okay, so I think the chicks as a band aged very, very well.

I can remember just staring out the window in the back seat of my parents' car, traveling soldier playing in the wake of,

“I think that came out post 9/11, it had to.”

And just crying my eyes out loving that song so much. But then also, of course, goodbye Earl,

which I think has still stood the test of time,

also not ready to make nice as an anthem for just standing up for yourself and what is right. And I think on a larger cultural scale, I think the chicks have really proved that you can be canceled, which they essentially were

for how they stood up against the war in Iraq and George Bush. And you can just stand by what is right. You can live by your morals. And in 20 years, a lot of people would be like,

they had the right idea, which I love for them. - Oh, absolutely. - I think they're definitely more well regarded now than they would have been in your childhood. - Yes, exactly.

And I think you think went through so much, like they got death threats. They were so shut on for just standing up for the right thing. But I think it has proved why they're so talented and why they're so good and why so many people still love them.

They were my very first concert was a child.

I'm almost 33 and I still greatly admire them. Actually, more than ever. So congratulations to them. - I have managed to come up with two things that have aged poorly and one that is aged questionably

in zero things that have aged well. (laughs) That's okay. It's the aged poorly, it's categorically the easier choice. - So I know on the podcast,

I've definitely talked about my obsession with the movie Mermaid and how I used to rent it all the time, the movie with Share. I've talked less about the other movie I was obsessed with renting because it's aged,

like, curdled milk, okay. And that movie is the air up there with Michael J. Fox. - I'm not familiar with this, you're gonna have to give me the pitch. - Yeah, so this is, oh no,

it isn't Michael J. Fox, it's Kevin Bacon. Oh, the talk about something that's aged well, Kevin Bacon. - Yeah, this is a 1994 movie in which the coach of a basketball team,

I'm unsure if it's a professional team or a college team needs to find new players. And so he goes to a tribal village in Africa to find them. - And it's what you were into. - I was so into it, I cannot explain anything about why.

Maybe just the travel aspect of it. I certainly don't care about basketball. And so he goes to recruit, I think it's one specific player for his team and bring him back to the U.S. import him. I haven't revisited this movie,

but just based on what I remember of the plot, I have to imagine it's herrificly racist and white savior Oriya did. - That's probably true, but that was most movies back then. - And does he have a 22% on Rotten Tomatoes?

- I'm doubting, this is a proud moment in Kevin Bacon's career, who I've thought all this time was Michael J. Fox, so maybe other people don't even remember it was Kevin Bacon.

“- Now Kevin, that's why he's posting so much on Instagram.”

We got to get people to forget that I did this back the day. I wonder what favorite movie of mine from my youth has the worst Ron Tomatoes rating? That's a question, a question to ponder for another day. Okay, tell me your other things.

Something else that hasn't necessarily aged poorly, but to not, I don't think it's aged well,

When I was probably late elementary school,

early middle school, I was so in on the peak of Beanie Baby Furver. We used to go to the hallmark store in our town and wait outside before they opened on the day that they got them in.

We weren't the only people doing this to get the new Beanie Babies. And I had such a collection, I remember going to trade shows for them, which is so funny.

And I was absolutely, and I mean, I was 10. So what did I know? But I absolutely thought, and I think a lot of people thought that these would be worth real money.

Not only do I not have any of them, even if they were worth real money. And also the girl, the teeny beanie's from McDonald's. Oh my God, I was obsessed with collecting them.

“And I think I really thought that this was a future proof plan.”

Yeah. Weirdly, it reminds me of the Liv Strong bracelet trend. Yeah, I kind of remember thinking like, I gotta keep this in a time capsule because one day I'm gonna be like,

wanting this artifact, and now I'm like, horrified to even think that was a trend somehow. And we gave Lance Armstrong that much power. But we were really shocked by his cancer diagnosis as a society.

I mean, talk about just a weird bizarre fashion trend to take a hold of the nation. Like, we really just love to celebrate white men. That much. Speaking of white men, my childhood thing that is aged questionably

is my crush on Leonardo DiCaprio,

who I don't know if he was my first,

but he was definitely my biggest, early crush, based on the Romeo and Juliet adaptation of him and Claire Danes was so formative to me, anti-tanic. But I had such a crush on Leonardo DiCaprio. And I mean, on the one hand, he's still very relevant.

You guess the most relevant.

“Is he somebody I would want to have a crush on today?”

Probably not. Better off, honestly, crushing on Kevin Bacon. He seems more wholesome in his musical little family with his wife of 20, 30 years or whatever it is. Yeah, unfortunately for me, I was not watching the air up there

because of a crush on Kevin Bacon. Why was I watching it? Interesting. Travel. I don't know, international travel.

It does seem to be in, oh, no, that's just the trailer. I was going to say, it does seem to be on YouTube and full. I don't even know where one would watch this movie. This has to be locked in a vault. It's out there.

That's what eBay is for. Yeah. So nothing, you can think of age well. I'm sure there are things. You put me on the spot, I can't--

I'm sorry, I shouldn't give any more time. I can't think of-- That's fair. If it comes to you at any point during the episode, feel free to chime in.

And if not, that's all right. OK, great.

Tell me your first thing.

OK, my first thing is a real that I saw that really fucked me up. And I'd love to tell you about it and get your reaction to it. And then also, I have some evolving feelings on it. So I saw this real that Reese Witherspoon posted

of all people, and in it, she's in her car. And she's talking about how she just got off a call with a young woman who was really unhappy in her job and wanted to switch careers and Reese asked her what are your talents.

And she couldn't give an answer off the top of her head. And Reese Witherspoon was very passionately saying that she thinks that our job as human beings is to find your talents and to chase them and that your dreams

“don't matter and you need to follow your talents.”

And I saw this, probably before bed, what night. And I was like, one of my talents. And I didn't have a good answer. I'm almost 40. And I'm like, I don't know, my talents are.

And when I was a kid, I had a strong aptitude for math. I'm certainly not chasing that one down. I don't know that anything that I am doing right now are necessarily things that I have in innate talent. Or I don't know.

I obviously think you're talented at all of your jobs. But I do have to say that I saw that real and I actually didn't finish watching it because I didn't like it. Something about it really bothered me.

I don't know what it was. I don't know. I don't really feel like that's great advice. That's what I came around to. It's, it fucked me up for a couple days

where I was, I kept coming back to it and thinking, what are my talents? And as a talent is sort of relative. Talent is relative. And also, when I think about my childhood,

what were things I was and was not encouraged to explore. And how do I perceive my own talent relative to other talents that might have gone unexpressed? And also, who sets the bar for? Okay, this level of talent means you should pursue this.

You know, like, I'm good at, I don't know. I consider myself kind of funny. I'm not gonna be a comedian. (laughs) I don't know.

You don't even mean, I don't know if I like that. I don't either. I ended up coming around to that I sure,

“I think talent does have something to do with success.”

And I think that there are individuals who have outsized talents. When, what I think of, I don't know why this is the example that came to mind. But Phineas, Billy Eilish's brother,

who clearly has such a, like, one in a billion brain

when it comes to music and how he hears and is able to think musically. It's like, yes, that man has a talent and he should pursue that. Or if you think of Billy Eilish in her voice,

or if you think of, of course, this is coming to the heated rivalry classroom, like those boys and they're acting talent. You know, when you think of certain boys, certain people have a talent,

but I think that's terrible advice to give to a class of middle schoolers. I don't think many people have such a level of talent where it's like, you can only pursue one thing and if not, you're going the wrong direction in life.

Like, I kind of was thinking, you know, I think talent is maybe a big factor for the Billy Eilish's of the world, but for a regular person,

“I think talent is at best 25% of the pie chart,”

another 25% is luck.

I think another 25% is just tenacity

and sticking with whatever you decide and working at it. And then I think, and I don't know if they're all even pieces of the pie, but, and then I think attitude. Yeah. Like, I think that would be terrible advice

to give to a group of high schoolers. I agree. I think, I mean, this is sort of the cheesy version of it, but I honestly think that passion is much more of a determining factor of,

or it should be much more of a guiding factor and what you want to do. Then, at least when it comes to creative things. Because passion informs your tenacity and your attitude about something.

Exactly. Also, I mean, what about the person who has a talent that is, there's nothing to compare it to. You know, like, they haven't created the thing yet

that only they are going to create.

So, I don't know. You know what I mean? It's like, how can you say that when someone might have a talent that isn't comparable? And they will then think, no one else is doing this.

So, maybe I'm not that talented in it. I don't know. I'm not really explaining myself as well as I could, I think. But I guess what I mean is that, who gets to decide what talent looks like?

Because it's not really something you can self-direct in the way that she described it or self-define. I also think that, in some cases, having a talent leads to having a hubris that prevents you from honing a skill.

Yeah, I get that. It also is sort of a thing that's like, you either have it or you don't. You know, or like, you can't possibly build skills in this area.

You can't possibly explore this. Because frankly, there are a lot of things that I don't think I had any particular talent in photography or for a while when I was really young. I was really interested in film and directing.

I wanted to be a director when I grew up. That was a thing. I didn't know that. Yeah, I was really into filming things and movies, which I still am in a lot of ways.

But like, I didn't really have any particular talent in those areas. But I think that had I really known that and then just decided not to pursue them at all, then you don't end up discovering the things

that you actually wanna do.

“You know, like, you have to give yourself the opportunity”

to try and if talent is the only factor with what you decide whether to go forward or not, then I think you lose a lot. Ultimately. Okay, here's another question.

If you were on the phone with Reese with her spoon, which I'm also questioning how this person who seems somewhat lost in her career, ends up on the phone with Reese with her spoon. I know who's their parents, telling their parents.

Truly, but you're on the phone with Reese with her spoon or just a more successful person. And they say to you, Olivia, what are your talents? What would you say off the top of your head? I mean, it's hard for me to say it.

And it's like, all I've ever done with my life and I'm like, I can't say that. I guess writing. She would not get off now. She would get off, she would totally make a real game off now.

She would not, the Reese's book of fix. Hello, Sunshine. We'll not be inviting you into the building Olivia. No, I mean, I think I am good at putting an emotion into words.

I do think I am good at that. If I'm really honest. Yep. I guess I don't know. What would you say?

I'm generally good at just chatting with almost anyone.

I host this podcast, which I feel like I don't think that I have an innate talent for podcasting.

“But I think I've been doing this for eight years.”

People listen and like it. I think that plays into writing. But I don't know that creative writing is my innate talent. I think it's something that I've working really hard at. And I'm getting better at through putting in my hours

versus some innate talent. I also think working in startups for a lot of my career being able to figure shit out in an ideal circumstances and creating an action plan is a talent of mine for sure. But does that mean I should go a spire to be the COO of something?

Like, I don't want to do that. Yeah, I would agree with all of that. I also wonder how much of this is like, it's, I mean, I think I'm more guilty of this than you are definitely. But I think women have trouble owning our successes

and talents sometimes, just because of gender dynamics and stuff maybe and I'm definitely, I mean, I just did it. I was like, I'm good at writing, I guess. Maybe, and then you're better at being confident owning your successes, maybe.

But I don't know that the things that I have in a innate talent and like thinking back to you, I'm very organized. I'm great at coming up with a system. I don't want that to be the basis of my career.

Yeah, it's limiting, I think. It's limiting for sure. But because it eliminates discovery. And also, if that were the case, then once we get to our age, what should we just stop trying other things?

To be honest, you know, never pick up an instrument

because odds are we would have already discovered that we're talented in it. Should we never try new sport, a new hobby? To me, saying here's what I'm passionate about. I know completely, clearly, can own it.

And maybe it's just because no one can really argue that whereas someone could definitely argue, actually you're not a good writer. And so then maybe it's like protective. I don't know.

“And what percentage of a talent are we talking about?”

Do you need to be the top? Exactly. Top 50% to top 10% to top 1%, but you can always come up with examples like using writing of people who I perceive to be more talented than me.

Does that mean I should not do it? And we should just only leave writing to those people? Yeah, exactly, exactly.

This is kind of what my first reaction was.

Did you happen to look at the comments? Because I'm kind of wondering what people said because I remember when I watched it, I felt like she really thinks she's doing something here. And like, you know, honestly, she probably

as she's reached by the other spoon, that she's much smarter than me in a lot of ways. But I was wondering if everyone would agree with that. I should go back and look. Because I rewatched it this morning to make sure

that I was remembering it correctly, but I didn't even think to click on the comments. Yeah, I don't know. I'm sure she has a point in its true in some ways. But I do think, as you were saying,

it's a little bit narrow. Yeah, all right, I'm glad that I'm not the only one who found that jarring and off-putting.

“Yeah, I think maybe if we're both in careers”

that we love so much and then we fought really hard for. And it leaves us with the question of like, I don't know, is this our talent? I don't know, the maybe something about it is off. But I definitely an interesting thought starter.

Well, enough about having crises of various kinds. What is your next thing? OK, my next thing is I want to go through the calendars for the rest of the year, which we just did this from March. We had to move some recordings around.

And I was an agent of chaos because my calendar is a little chaotic, but I want to go through the calendars and you tell me one thing you're excited for each month. Oh, OK, starting with where at the beginning of March, starting with March.

What's one thing you're looking forward to, March? I just booked a flight to Boston for next weekend. One of my best friends was just saying that her daughter's in the best phase and she's so sassy and she's so funny. And I haven't seen her in a while.

And I was like, I want to come hang out with Matty. So I'm really excited to see my friend's daughter who's like two and a half. Oh, that's so sweet. That'll be fun.

What about you? This is your thing. You have to have some big for this fun. Sorry, as I said, March is a little chaotic for me. It's my birthday month.

It's Jake's birthday month. I think we're going to go out to dinner and also go ahead and teaking and look for some stuff for the kitchen. So I'm really looking forward to that.

OK. Also, I have a book event in Charleston on the 23rd that I'm really excited for. Great. OK, April.

April, I hope that I am writing and really into book three. So I guess that's more hopeful than anything that's on the calendar.

I am using time this month to brainstorm and get into things

and hopefully start writing. But by April, I hope I'm obsessed. Yeah, mine is actually pretty similar. I hope I spend half of the month working super hard.

“That's the only thing I'm doing is working on book three.”

And hopefully I can then turn it in. And I can spend half of the month just relaxing a little bit. Because it's been a busy few weeks. I only have one book event, April. So I'm looking forward to just working.

OK, great. May. I don't know. I'm going to have to start making things up. You tell me, well, I'm looking forward to--

we should be starting our kitchen renovation at the end of May. So I'm both scared and excited. I don't know what I'm excited to. A dishwasher and a newer refrigerator. I'm excited for you for that.

Maybe by May, my apartment will start coming together and I'll have more furniture. That's good. Sure, I'll say that. You have no trips.

I figured you'd have-- No. OK, moving on to June. So June, I'm going on a collective 40th birthday trip with my friends from college.

And instead of doing individual trips, we're just doing one big trip. We're going to Italy. And I'm so excited. And we've been planning this for over a year now,

so I'm excited to both be with them, but also a culmination of all this planning. That sounds like it's going to be perfect. I'm so excited. What about you?

What is your June excitement? I'm so excited to be in the garden, just sitting there, planting things. I'm assuming that the kitchen will be in shambles. And so I will be outside a lot, but just eating outside,

cooking outside, grilling, all the outdoor activities. Playing in the fields, I love a picnic situation. So that's my really exciting plans for June. OK, great. July.

July? I'm going to say, July is lobster rolloff, but I'm excited to defend my title in the lobster rolloff. Do I know what I'm making? No.

Let'll start soon. The perhaps four months away, I have time. You know, I wrote a lobster into my most recent chapter I was working on. I was going to add a lobster.

We'll see if it ends up staying. But did she just love when you add something where you're like, why not? We'll try it. Hopefully the kitchen is getting close to being done at this point.

I'm really looking for maybe going on little weekend trips. I have no trips booked, really, no anything. And I don't know if this is a July thing or maybe August or June, but I would really like to take a writing trip, depending on where I'm at with book three, and just me, the ocean,

I laptop writing, if possible, so maybe July. It will be pot, but maybe that. Great August. I don't know if this is realistic, but in my head,

I would like to be wrapping up a first draft in August.

I'd like to wrap up a draft before my book comes out in October. So I feel like if I am kind of wrapping things up in August, that gives us time to refine it a little. I don't really have a plan in terms of taking it out to sell. I don't know.

But yeah, I'd like to be feeling very accomplished in August and reaching the end of a first draft. Took a good goal. Mine is very boring. The Costco in Albany is opening, which is close to me.

That is on my calendar.

“And it is quite literally the only thing on my calendar”

in August, so I will be there. - Wow. - We're opening, friends. - Love. - Okay, September. - September is my 40th birthday.

And I'm really pleased to report to you that I feel really excited about turning 40. I don't know why what I'm going to do yet. I think I'm gonna try to host some kind of like group dinner in New York on my actual birthday, which is a Tuesday.

And then on the Wednesday, I bought Harry Styles tickets for me and five of my best friends to go see Harry at Madison Square Garden, which I'm so excited for.

- That's gonna be amazing.

- Yes. It was my birthday present to myself and also to them. - That's a great present. - What about you? What are you excited for in September?

- We have a week booked in Hatter's and the outer banks. So I'm looking forward to that. Maybe I'll extend it and just do the writing time there. I don't know. That'll be with my family extended family.

So that'll be nice. - October, another big month. - My book's coming out. My book's coming out. I mean, I feel really excited about it now.

“I think there's gonna be some anxiety creeping in,”

but I'm excited. - I'm excited for you, too. - Thank you. Hopefully doing some events, we'll see. - Yes, I can't wait.

- What's on your October docket? - You know, I don't have anything I'm excited for your book. I'm excited to support you with all of that.

but like I hope that I have like total clarity on my October of some kind. Even if it's like different than my rough plan right now,

“but I think going into the end of the year,”

like I would love that, so we'll see. - Right. - November. - It's getting, I have not planned this far out. I guess I would say, I assume that I will host friends

giving again this year, and it'll be the first one

of my new apartment. I don't know if that's true. - You can say anything, it's so far away, it doesn't matter. - Okay, great. - Minus similar, I would like to host Thanksgiving

for my family or Jake's family or for feeling really ambitious for both, but I think that might be a lot, but I would love for like the kitchen to be done. - Way before, if it's not until November,

honestly someone find me because I'm probably suffering, but by that time it will be done, I'm saying that, and I would love to be able to show it off to people. And then maybe that's also thinking back to October, September, like having a party when it's done

would be really exciting. So exciting, I can't wait to see how it evolves. - December, anything? - I don't know. - Oh no.

- So sorry. - I made this really hard. - I don't know.

“I'm really like, I think about the future,”

maybe a little too much, so that. - Christmas is good. - I feel like this year I have a few big things, this birthday trip, my 40th birthday, the book, and outside of that I really cannot conceive of or plan.

- Yeah, that's really understandable. I think by this time, the kitchen's done, paid for, I would love to have a vacation on the horizon. - Oh, okay. - 'Cause I don't think we're really gonna have

like a proper one, family stuff or whatever here and there, but something really fun and exciting. I would love to have on our radar for 2027 by this. - I feel like you guys are big January vacation people, so maybe you're planning a January trip.

- Yeah, I would love that. - That would be really nice. Okay, I think it's gonna be a really good 2026. I just am saying that. - I'm gonna go into the old Costco.

- I hope you're right. - I will be at that Costco. - I hope you're right, personally, looking at life in a micro level. - Anyway.

- Let's take it in their ad break and then we have three more things. (upbeat music) This episode is sponsored by Cozy Earth. Sometimes people ask me which rooms are quote done in my house

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be sure to mention you heard about Cozy Earth right here. Experience the craft behind the comfort and make everyday feel intentional with Cozy Earth. What is your next thing? - My next thing is an online discourse

that I have been seeing. And I'm curious if you have tapped into any of this or seen it, but there's been a lot of chatter and I'm not justifying it. I don't know that I think it's correct,

but there's been a lot of chatter, especially on the reds I've seen it, about a contemporary romance genre being dead or dying. Have you seen any of this? - I have not.

- So I think it started a little bit different. I think it started with somebody saying, for authors who are out on submission or trying to query contemporary romance, it's quite hard right now to break into the genre.

So, you know, potentially editors have over acquired in the genre and over the last five years,

that it's really hard to break in

“because a lot of readers have their auto buy authors.”

And then also at the same time, there's a lot of self-publishing activity on the contemporary romance side. So you're also competing with Kindle Unlimited with free options.

So it's a tough time to sell a debut contemporary romance. I think it's where it started, but then it obviously spiraled in people are like, contemporary romance is dead, et cetera, et cetera. But it did get me thinking,

well, first of all, I have a contemporary romance

where I don't consider the Christmas Orphan's Club. It's kind of a weird stepchild of contemporary romance because the A-Sory is a friendship story. And it's categorized as a rom-com, but I don't know that it fully neatly fits that,

whereas my newer book, "Back where We Started" is fully a contemporary romance. And so, first of all, this scares me. But then, second of all, it just made me reflect on my own behaviors as a reader,

and then also what I'm seeing in terms of buzz for books. I'm curious if you've seen this if you have any reactions to it, like, how does this strike you? - It's interesting.

“I think if anything, I've heard that's what is being bought”

the most right now.

So either I'm completely wrong,

which is really a high possibility. Or, I don't know, I just think in publishing people try to extrapolate trends to make it easier to navigate, if you're going on submission, or you've a book coming out.

And I just don't, I don't know, I just don't really think you can do that in publishing because it's such a unique beast of a machine. I don't know. - I'm not sure from this sale aside,

how easier hard it is to come into the genre and sell a contemporary romance as a debut author right now. I'm on a two book deal, so my book got sold in 2022, things could be totally different than at that time where there was seemingly a lot of excitement

about contemporary romance. Going back to something you just said though, I do feel like sometimes these conversations have a little bit of like a chicken little, the sky is falling, the sky is falling.

Tone to them, where writers kind of just like with each other into a frenzy and take scattered anecdotal points and then turn it into a trend that isn't necessarily there. But I will say, and I've talked about this,

even over the past couple of years, I do think my taste as a heavy romance reader, my taste is changing. Like I remember when the genre first emerged with Jasmine Gillarie Helen Huang, I was so excited

and I was really excited about tropey romances. Like there's only one bed, like enemies to lovers

has never been my second chance romance.

Like I was really excited about tropey romances and I didn't mind if they were more predictable. And I do find myself over the last year, especially wanting things that are different and gravitating towards things

that I haven't seen before as opposed to the tried and true tropes.

“And I think part of that is because there are these authors”

who are writing a book a year who are already covering that base. Not that they're tropey or predictable, but it's like you think of the Emily Henry, the Abby Jimenez, the Annabelle Monahan, the Catherine Center, Carly Fortune.

Like those are all auto by authors for so many romance readers. And so if you already have five things on your docket that are kind of like a certain type of contemporary romance, I find myself craving things that are really different. But I also think we've seen less contemporary romance popping.

Recently, like last year, I can think of it's different this time by Joss Richard. It has a very fall cover of a New York stoop. Like that seemed to have like broken through the noise as a debut, but I'm not saying a ton of debut romance

really like break out. Like last summer, these summer storms was both pictures of genre-bender, but it also wasn't a debut. Sarah McLean has a really avid readership

from historical romance and that popped. But like, I don't know, it doesn't feel like other contemporary romances are popping in the same way as they were in the days when like the romance genre was growing. And I think it's really interesting.

And ironic that two of the busiest romances for 2026 are almost pitched as romances for people who don't like romance. So bad words by Reonach Robinson, which comes out in October, has been really busy. And it's about a author and a critic.

And it has a lot of thematic material about the role of literary criticism. But it's definitely, I wouldn't necessarily call it literary, but it definitely has like media or themes than some other contemporary romances.

And it does feel like it's trying to attract a different audience than the core romance base. And then there's this other book called Games,

that I read that I've been seeing a lot of buzz for,

and maybe this is just in my own blinder's ecosystem. But the main characters really clash over economic theory. And it's very, very heavy economic theory debates in it.

“And it's like very different than what I think of”

as the standard contemporary romance genre of like the hijinks and like fake dating, mistaken identity, you know, things like that. And so it's interesting that those are the ones that are catching buzz or the ones that almost appeal

or try to bring in an audience outside of the core romance readership that exists. - Yeah, I would agree with you, I think. Maybe it's just a matter of like the people who are reading romance or like you said,

when you consider the book a year romance authors who are the last popular. And there's a pretty good amount of them, right? - Totally. - That kind of means for the average reader,

you're probably set for the year. Like you can only read so much. So when you're up against that, whereas in another genre, maybe people are publishing a little bit slower

and you have more time to discover something in the gaps. I mean, maybe that factors into it as well.

“But then again, you know, contemporary romance”

readers are voracious. So I don't know, it might just be a matter of it being a little oversaturated. But I still feel like from the outside, I still see deals happening.

I still see people publishing. I still see people buying them. And I think people are reading. It's maybe just spread out over outside of those top authors.

It spread out over more books, including self-publishing fan fiction, like other non-traditionally published options. - Yeah, I went to a bookstore.

I had never been to the other day

and it was fairly small independent bookstore. And I think the general fiction and the thriller combined were like 25% of the amount of just straight contemporary romance and the amount of sea that they had.

It was the whole store, basically. And I kept watching people come in because I was signing for like three hours so I would see what people bought. And it was always contemporary romance every single time.

- Oh wow. - And often they wouldn't even glance at thriller. They wouldn't even glance at them. - Oh, they came in knowing what they were looking for. - Yes, or they would browse.

They would just browse romance but not even go to general fiction. So I thought it was really interesting. - And yeah, I don't know.

“I think it's still such a, like I said, everyone who reads”

that genre is so into it, they're hungry for more. And it's just a matter of maybe people have overbought. I don't know. - Interesting that there's no Emily Henry this year. So that leaves a gap in kind of what is one of many people's

top most anticipated annual author releases. And then also I thought it was really fascinating that in this interview that she did with L or glamour, there was an interview that she did with the people who meet on vacation movie where she said that

what she's excited to do is to step further outside what her readers expect from her. So I wonder if her next book coming out in 2027 or beyond will also either stretch the limitations of the contemporary romance genre or step outside

of it altogether because she started in speculative YA. So you know, she certainly has interests beyond that. And I think her most recent release blended historical fiction with contemporary romance. So I'm really curious to see what she'll do in the genre

and what that will do to the genre overall. - Yeah, me too. I've been thinking about this so much,

but I'm really curious for you as you go into your third book.

Do you find yourself thinking more about wanting to make it different than the first two or wanting to make sure it has enough shared DNA that your readers are still interested? 'Cause I feel like that balance is really tricky.

- Yeah, I feel like my knee jerk inclination is to want it to be different. Like I'm a little sick of writing about Christmas. My next book hopefully will take place over the summer. I'm definitely excited to explore new things.

I also feel like I'm learning as I go, what I'm good at, what I like writing, and what I am weaker at. And some of those weak skills are like, oh, this is an opportunity to improve.

But some are just like, let me come up with a premise that capitalizes on what I'm already good at and like to do. So, yeah, I haven't had any conversations with my team about this, it's just all kind of percolating, but it's been interesting to see the conversations around it.

- Yeah, I wonder how Emily Henry thinks about it. Like I wonder if she's the high one and do something different, so badly. - That's something that Ellen Hildbrand has talked about. A lot where I don't know how hard she pushed,

but sounded like there was a lot of pressure on her with her nantucket books to do the same thing, but slightly different year after year after year. Like she was really tasked with delivering on an Ellen Hildbrand

- Yeah, which is tough because you can look at themes

or locations or whatever that echo through all of your books as just like, this is an interesting thread through all of your writing, or you could think of it as this is boring. You know, this, I've done this.

So it's really hard to know which of those is true and I feel like it's such a gut instinct. Yeah, and here, I'm just thinking about this a lot. - Take us to our next topic, your last thing, and then I have one more.

- My final thing is very simple. It is, I wanna know the last internet rabbit hole you went down. - Oh, okay, I feel like I can answer this. It's interconnected individual rabbit holes, but it is all under the same umbrella

and that is Kennedy family lore. - As I've been watching Love Story, that is a dense Wikipedia page.

- Yeah, I've been going down

individual Kennedy family member Wikipedia pages and associated rabbit holes. - Isn't it the saddest thing you've ever seen to just realize the amount of tragedies spread out through generations?

- Yeah, it's bleak. - Speaking of bleak, my rabbit hole was just seeing what the heck happened to Shilabuff. - Oh, that's not what I expected. - Yeah, I don't know if you heard

he was arrested in New Orleans a couple of weekends ago.

“For, I think he got into a physical altercation”

also was using homophobic slurs. Also, my brother saw him jogging the other day. So, oh, strange side of him. - He did this interview with, I think he's like a YouTuber

in the shadow of sort of all of this controversy and it kept coming up on my reels 'cause I had Facebook tell loaded and so one night I really went to other rabbit hole and I think I kept watching them

so it kept sowing them to me. And it's just very clear he's not well. - Yeah. - He's not doing well mentally. Like he seems like in the throws of addiction

of some kind and I grew up in even Stevens and I have thought of various points he's a very talented actor. But once I started going down this rabbit hole I realized he was in a relationship with FK twigs

who then I think sued him or accused him of sexual assaults and abuse. And so I'm not very steeped in the lore of child above. I definitely saw the headline if I'm getting arrested.

- Yeah and he was in a really tumultuous relationship with me and Goth and they have a child together. But it's just child startum.

“So deeply messes people up to varying degrees, I think.”

But I hope he gets the help that he needs and doesn't hurt anyone else or continue to spread hateful language which he's doing. But anyway, that was my rabbit hole. - Okay.

- Okay, what's our final thing? - So I think my final thing is maybe my shortest and most simple. One thing I'm thinking a lot about right now is setting writing goals for book three

and I'm clearing the slate of previous expectations and I want to go into it and be like, what is actually realistic with my schedule, the obligations of my time? Because I think in the past,

I have set both aggressive weekly goals and then aggressive deadlines for how quick I can finish things and then become very mean to myself when I don't hit them when I don't know

that they were realistic in the first place.

And so it's very helpful for me to have a goal but I don't wanna lord it over myself. So I'm very curious how you set up your daily or weekly or draft goals for your writing or your schedule.

Like how does that work for you? Is it word count as a time? Walk me through it. - I've been thinking about this a lot lately as well, especially because I'm in the middle of a deadline

that is probably overly ambitious that I'm starting to beat myself up already. - You said earlier that you're planning to finish your draft in April and I didn't wanna say I think what I was like, oh wow, I mean I do have 60% of it

but I am also rewriting it, not rewriting. Well yeah, essentially I'm taking from page one and of course a lot is being pulled over. So I'm able to do like 10,000 words a week where that is not normal if I'm just dropping from.

- But even just writing the remaining unwritten 40% in a month and a half is aggressive in my opinion. This rate is gonna be about two weeks that I will have.

“So that's why I'm starting to panic a lot.”

And in the beginning, I looked at my schedule and I said okay, I'll work Monday through Friday. I'll do two chapters a day. You're doing it based on chapters. I've done a lot of different versions.

Usually when I'm in any kind of like revising stage which I sort of half am at this point, I do it by chapters just 'cause it's easier.

And so the only thing I found that works is that

I do it five days a week. So if I have to do it on a weekend, if I have to only spend an hour, I do it five days a week. And I keep track of the word count. So I can have some sense of what pace I'm going at.

And that doesn't mean that every day is the same amount. But that's the only thing I found works is just the consistency of making sure that's the priority 'cause every day is different. You know, like some days you're going to be copying,

pasting a bunch of hours, some days you're going to be rewriting it, some days you're drafting. So that's all I have, I don't know.

“- Do you have writing for chapter goals versus actual time?”

I'm going to spend two hours, I'm going to spend three hours working on this. - Yeah.

- Okay, is there anything you're doing differently

as you, I think you're diving into it this week, you sat in our next week? - I'm really just spending some time these couple of weeks doing some reading for research, doing some brainstorming, I'd like to try outlining

and my biggest goal for this book is to be gentle with myself and not put myself in a situation where I'm being mean to myself and also build my confidence. And so I really want to figure out realistic goal setting. And I think one thing I'm thinking about is the fact

that I don't think five days a week is probably realistic for me on Fridays. Right now, we record the podcast at 930. It usually takes two hours, sometimes two and a half when all is set and done with brainstorming other topics,

talking about other business. And then I try to write my Sunday sundries newsletter on Friday afternoons two, and so that's another two hours. I usually need like half an hour of switching time and between.

And so you know, am I realistically going to do both of those things and right? Probably not. It might be better off to just say Friday is like a newsletter in podcast day.

And I start my newsletter for next week on Friday afternoon as opposed to trying to switch again.

“And right, because I think what is realistically going to end up”

happening is that I'm going to not do Sunday sundries and end up doing that on Saturday or Sunday, which is what I've been doing for the past couple months. So I'm trying to think about what is realistic. And it's like four days a week.

I don't want to plan to write on weekends, but I do understand that sometimes it'll be a bad writing day and maybe Wednesday will get kicked to Saturday. But I don't want that to be the plan. I think I've previously said 1,500 words a day with when

drafting, but I think maybe just like 1,000 words a day when drafting. So a 90,000 word draft that would be like 90 writing days divided by four days a week. And then just like at a month on top of it

because it's not going to be perfect. And then you know, any travel I have. Let's say 90 divided by four is 22 weeks plus four weeks. So that's six months. Yeah.

And I just said, I know, which I just said before that I'm hoping to finish by August. So if I start the end of March, then OK, April, May, June, July. August is only five months. Like it's already unrealistic in my head.

“So that's what I'm really trying to clear out”

to be like, what actually is realistic to hold myself to? Instead of setting, I'm famous for this. Famous to myself only for just arbitrarily picking the rosiest or ideal option. And then being like, well, why can't you do that?

Yeah. Yeah, same. I'm doing it right now. Yeah. And I get it.

I want your perspective on this. Because something I'm really struggling with right now is, and I try to explain this to Jake. And it's sort of very confusing once you start talking about it, but I'll try to be clear.

So do you know that feeling when you're writing? And there's something that is scratching at your brain. You're like, I don't know if that is quite right. And I have two options. The options are, you go forward.

You write with that thing in the book. And you realize that you're writing a bunch of stuff you're going to have to undo potentially later. Or you save yourself of that work, but you create more work in the moment and you fix it then.

Or if you're me, you freeze trying to decide which is best. And that feeling is so paralyzing. It paralyzes me because I'm trying to figure out the fastest solution that's going to be the best for the story and the best creatively

and the most true to my gut instinct as a writer. And I don't know what to do. Do you ever find yourself there and what do you do? All the time, I think that's inevitable in the writing process. And I think a couple of things.

So first of all, especially in a first draft or an early draft,

you're going to write things that have to be undone. So maybe reconciling that and stopping trying to write the perfect draft the first time and just saying,

And I think that was really hard for me with writing book too

“as I just kept feeling like that was a waste,”

but that's just part of the process. So first of all, letting yourself off that hook and just be like push forward. Second thing is like, I wonder, I don't know what the specific issue you're having is,

is it discreet enough that you can just TK it and like skip it and come back at the end, which I've done before in drafts, where I'm like, there's a chapter in book two where the two main characters were like polar opposites as children become best friends.

And I was like, I don't know how they become best friends or polar opposites. And so it was like TK chapter where they become best friends. And it was like, I wrote maybe like a page a half intro to it, bridging from the previous past chapter.

And then I was just like a TK for maybe two drafts. And so, but it was like, I know what happens at the end of the plot lines, so I can keep writing forward. I just don't know how they become best friends.

Yeah. And so if it's screwed enough that you can just TK it and then not bash your head against the wall and come back to what at the end of the draft where you maybe have figured it out in your head

or you can talk to your agent or brainstorm with a friend and figure it out. Like maybe that's the better use of time. If you know the outcome of it, but if it's something you'll have to explore,

I would just say, know that you're gonna have to rework it, but that's not failure. Yeah, you're totally right. I think I needed to hear that. I think maybe the issue is that like,

it's something that the further I write, it's just gonna get so tightly nodded within the plot that to then unwork it later will be hard. I guess I'm just trying so much to really follow my gut instinct on things and in a way that means questioning more

than I would at times.

“So that's different, but I will remember that.”

It's always so much easier to give somebody else grace

than to give yourself grace. Yeah, it is. I also wonder if there is an option where you can spend a day like tomorrow brainstorming it, call a few people. I find it really helpful sometimes to brainstorm with people

not because I expect them to come up with the answer, but sometimes when you tell them they say something and you're like, no, that's absolutely wrong. And here's why and then you understand the problem better or the parameters better?

That's very true. Yeah, I might do that. I might call in recruits. Yeah, maybe I will right after this, I don't know. Oh, okay.

Yeah, I don't have any solution to my initial thing, but I'm trying to figure out what is a schedule and I've already threw this conversation and figured out that what I had in my head is probably unrealistic already.

Maybe it's just acceptance. Maybe it's acceptance that you're gonna make a schedule and it's not gonna be what you think it is.

And that sucks, but it's never what you think

it's gonna be even if you plan as intensely as possible. Yeah, maybe it's also bringing it down into shorter sprints where it's like, I wanna write half of this book in three months instead of the full book in six months. Then at the three month mark, reassessing and being like,

okay, am I on schedule? How is it going? Yeah, and like, I wrote 60% or 70% whatever percent of the draft and then I wrote a 100% outline.

So it's like, it kind of adds up to a full thing, even if you haven't read in every single word yet or the first version of it. Yeah, well, let's take one more ad break and then we will get into some end matter.

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I am obsessed with a song called The Hand by Annabel Dinda. And I was listening to the Spotify playlist that's like your life as a movie. I think that's what it's called,

but it's curated to your taste in music specifically, which I love. And this song came up.

I had never heard it before.

I was driving somewhere. And I immediately loved it. Just the melody of it. I thought it was so catchy. I loved her voice.

And then I listened to it again. And I started to really love the lyrics. And then this morning I put it on before we hopped on this call. And I was listening to it while reading the lyrics

and I loved it even more. And it's just one of the most intense reactions to a song I've had in a really long time. It's just great on so many different levels.

“And I think she's opening for the opening act”

on no cons of coming tour, which makes sense to me. I'm definitely not the first person to discover the song I saw it has 25 million plays on Spotify, but I might be the last, actually. You're the first to tell me, certainly.

But I had never heard it. And it was just fantastic from start to finish. And I loved it. And I can't wait to listen to more from her. Well, I just opened a Google day while you were talking about it, because I couldn't have conceived based

on the outline what this could possibly be. I was like, is it a piece of art? Is it a, what is the hand? Yeah. So I have it open and I'm excited to listen.

What is your obsession? I think you might be interested in this as somebody who is a Costco enthusiast. So I tried what is, I don't know, it was marketed to me as the viral Costco rotisserie chicken recipe.

And we can link the real I saw in the show notes. In the real, they do it in the bag, in the rotisserie chicken bag, which I did not do. I kind of use this as loose inspiration,

but you basically take a rotisserie chicken,

you tear it up into bite size pieces. You then make a bag of microwave rice, like the Trader Joe's microwave rice, you put it in. I used my mandolin to like really thinly slice a cucumber, and then I chopped up a head of scallions.

“And then you put it in with, I think you do it in the bag,”

so you get the chicken juices too. I did not do that. And you do rice wine vinegar, soy sauce. They did chili crisp, which has sesame seeds and at which I'm allergic to.

So I did sambal instead. And you kind of just mix it all up. It took less than five minutes. It was the easiest meal prep thing I've ever done. It doesn't even count as cooking.

And it was so good. I've been eating it for lunch all week. And I was like, this is going into the rotation. It was so easy. And I didn't get sick of it.

I just watched the video. It looks delicious. Really good. I'm going to try that. I don't know if I could do in the bag.

The bag-- Yeah, I didn't do it in the bag. I didn't have a bowl. No goes on for me. Yeah, I hear you.

It also seems like right for error that you actually don't close it enough and you're shaking it and it goes everywhere. That's true.

So I don't think the bag is critical.

I did it in a big bowl. It worked out. OK. OK, good to know. Well, what did you read?

Oh, so I went back to a book that I tried in 2023 and DNF, which is Hello Beautiful by Ann Napolitano. And you loved this book. It's so beloved among readers.

“And I think my problem with it when I first started it”

was that I found it jarring that it started from a male point of view. The first chapter. And the chapters are pretty long, in some cases. You love basketball as we've now learned.

The first long chapter was from a male point of view. And it was all about basketball. And I was like, this book is not for me. That's the understandable. And I DNFed it.

But I kept the book. And when I moved, there were a certain amount of books that I was like, I'm not ready to give this away. And so it kind of went back into the TBR. And I picked this up this week.

And I read all of it, and I was so wrong for DNFed it. It's so good. I saw it through the end of it. Oh my God, it was so good. And my reasons for DNFing it, I understand.

But it was not indicative of the arc of the book, the reasons I DNFed it. Yeah. And I also was thinking so much of you during it because--

Because I'm tall. Yeah. basketball, I know I get it every day. There's a character in it who's being tall is so much of her identity.

And I was like, oh, I didn't realize that this was a part of the book. And I wonder how much that played into why Olivia loved it. Yeah, I was actually only-- it's funny because now I'm remembering

that that is a plot line, whereas I just choked about that now because of the basketball, which I remember too. But yeah, I'm sure that's a reason why I loved it. But I was just thinking about it the other day

because I've been filling up my all-time favorites

And I put it on there.

And I thought about mostly I just have this memory of me crying

behind my glasses as I finish it so heavily. Oh, I can also tell people what it's about. It's a modern day. No, it's not even modern.

“Because it starts in the '70s, I think, even the '60s.”

But it's a more contemporary loose retelling of little women. And it's about this guy who is a basketball star who marries into this family of four sisters who are very tight knit kind of what happens through their lives. And very family-centric, sister-centric, very interesting

mental health plot lines, very interesting romance plot lines, very sobby at the end. Yeah, buckle up, but it's worth it, for sure. Oh my gosh, I'm so glad that I picked this one back up. And then I didn't get rid of it in my move.

What about you, did you read anything this week? I didn't finish anything. I didn't read a lot this week. For being honest, I watched a lot of love after Lockup, which has become my, I've had a really long day.

And I would like to relax. Don't recommend that at all. I feel ashamed. But I want to read more. I just have so many absurd rounded by books at all times

that I need to read. And it's reaching a point where I'm like,

“you need to read every second of the day.”

And then I end up watching Love After Lockup. But some weeks are like that. Some weeks it. I was gonna say, I don't think any of us are worried that you're gonna stop reading or fall out of love with reading.

Like you'll get back on the worst. What if one week? I was like, I'm actually, I'm done.

I never read any of what I've read this week.

I've decided to opt out. Well, no. - I would probably hate to some larger chats. - Send help for me if I ever say that. 'Cause I'm probably not doing well in some way.

But no, I will never give up reading. - Well, if you're one of the million plus people who already read Hello Beautiful Before Me and you're like, welcome to the party, but we've been here, I would like a different reading

recommendation. We do have our March Book Club Pick, which is so old, so young by Grant Ginder. This is a story about a group of six friends and it's told across 20 years

from right after college into their 40s. And we only see them at five different parties. So there's a shitty New Year's Eve party right after they graduate. There's a destination wedding. There's a fancy milestone birthday party at a rented

Hampton's house. There's a backyard Halloween party. And it really tracks how these friendships have inflow over the course of many years and as people go through different life stages

and their lives diverge from how they were

when they first met in college.

So very excited to discuss this. We'll be discussing it. It's an early Book Club this month. The last Wednesday of the month falls early. It's the 25th, so we're gonna be discussing this in two weeks.

- I'm looking forward to it.

“If you want to talk to us about any of this,”

you can join us in the Battle of Paper Facebook group, in the Battle of Paper BFF group. We're under a Battle of Paper podcast on Instagram. I am on Instagram and Sub-Sec at Olivia Mentor. You can order any of my books at OliviaM Mentor.com.

That would be really nice. And you can pre-order a back of the book, back where we started right now. And you should do that, get on it. - Thank you for that shout out.

My, I'm on Instagram @backamfreman. My newsletter is at backoffreman.substack.com, no M. And as Olivia said, my book back where we started is coming out in October. I would love it if you pre-order it.

And thank you for bearing with me on the self-promotion. And we'll see you next week where we have a very special guest. To I thank you all, no one love. - Bye. - Bye. - Bye.

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