Our Favorite Non-Fiction Reads

>> Hi, everyone. Welcome back to Baton Paper podcast.

I'm Becca Freeman, and I'm Olivia Mentor. And today we're talking about a book topic that I don't think we have broached in the almost eight years of this podcast, which is a whole episode about non-fiction books. >> Yeah, maybe we should do a disclaimer that we are not experts, but I do want to say that we did get racks from all of you.

And we have a wide range of non-fiction picks to choose from. So we're going to hit a little bit about everything. >> I'm a little intimidated about this episode because non-fiction is so not my lane.

It's somewhere where I don't feel like I have any authority to recommend things as a book person.

“>> Well, that's why we call them recruits.”

So I think it'll be good also to have non-fiction racks from us who are not necessarily non-fiction readers. Because I think a lot of people don't read that much non-fiction. So if we're recommending these books, you know that they're going to be good. Even if non-fiction isn't everything like us. >> Sorry, Olivia. Yeah, me and to some highs. Tell me your high this week.

>> My high was on Saturday night. I went to dinner with some friends and then we went and saw weathering heights. And I've seen so many takes on this movie, so many endless takes. And I didn't really know what to expect. I like Jacoba Lorty, of course.

I'm but a human woman, just a human really.

“>> That's what that's all it takes to love him and appreciate his being.”

I was going to say his breath, like his size, so strange. I feel like I'm objectifying him too much. Anyway, I like him, but you know, I wasn't like this is my movie of the year or anything. I do love weathering heights, have it read it in its entirety, since high school probably. And I had seen so many people say they didn't like it.

And I get why, I get why. It really does have the feeling of like you're watching a Pinterest board for two and a half hours. Okay, it's just a lot of vibes, not great writing at all, not really a plot. I don't even know necessarily if Margot Robbie and Jacoba Lorty had chemistry in my eyes. And yet, I enjoyed it so much because it was just so clear that Emerald Finnell had a vision here.

Like she just had all these colors and textures and fabrics and music and settings in her mind. And she just put them together and created this movie. It does feel like a mood board and less like an actual story, but I still found it very inspiring in a lot of ways. And I loved the soundtrack so much. So it was just really fun.

I've been meaning to see it and I haven't gotten around to it. I haven't made it a priority whatsoever and I don't know if I will. I feel like it's almost there's too many takes around it where now I feel salty about seeing it.

Oh my god, one of the my favorite things I saw about it was critical review and one of the poll quotes from it was Emerald Finnell.

Boyle down this book to ask the question, "What if a hot guy was at your house?" I mean, that is actually kind of just the, but it's such an interesting movie watching experience. There are scenes that really kind of, it's not that I was blushing. I was just like, "Oh, I wasn't expecting this." Like there's this one scene at the beginning, people will know where Margot Robbie is looking through the floorboards and seeing something kind of scandalous.

“And then Jacob will already, I don't even want to give it away, but it's honestly maybe worth it just for that one scene, it was great.”

And I, I don't even really like Charlie X-X, but I loved the songs paired with the settings and the scenes and the colors and the fog and the mist. Like, I just heard that the music was very, Florence and the machine, even though it was Charlie X-X. It was and it was also interspersed with like traditional Irish sounding music, which as we all know, I kind of really like. So it was this weird balance that really worked for me, but it really really inspired me creatively because, I don't know, there's something about seeing someone put together something very weird

and very divisive that I really like. I'm just like, she just went for it, you know, she just went for it. And I do recognize she's like a netbo baby and all that stuff and whatever, but yeah, I think it's worth seeing. You're pulling me closer to the, I should go see this while it's in theaters, side of the stuff you hate it. I think it's worth it just because it is, it's just interesting. It's just way different than anything I've seen, but there's a lot to hate too. There's a lot of growth stuff as well. Anyway, tell me about your high.

but I'm not going to shut up about this. I'm so excited. I've been sitting on secrets for three years.

So I can finally tell you about my book too. We announced the cover of it,

which you can see on my Instagram. It's called "Baffer We Started." And it is about Katie and Drew, who are childhood best friends turned first loves, who are bonded by their big ambitious dreams that are far too big to accomplish in their small pencilding hometown. She wants to be a famous actress that can do a Julia Roberts. He wants to be the president. And fast forward to today, and Katie, who is now known professionally as Blair Banks, actually is a famous actress,

which is a ride that's required her changing far more about herself than just her name. And Drew is, as you might have guessed, definitely not the president. And the two are out of touch,

and Katie has to go home for the holiday. It's for the first time in many years because her sister

is pregnant. And the two of them run into each other and realize that their spark is still alive and well. And more thematically, the book is very much about people pleasing. It's about our treatment of female celebrities in our culture. It's about the hamster wheel of achievement and kind of how one thinks about having it all. I would compare it to kind of pitching it as nodding hill meets every summer after by Carly Fortune with a dash of sweet home Alabama. So it's very just

say, I'm very impressed with how well you have nailed this pitch already. So somebody else has

“been practicing this because I'm so impressed. Does your publisher make you record a video?”

No. Okay. So for both of my books, I've had to record a video. I think I did it in December. And so I had to memorize a script, you know, introducing myself, saying what the book was about, saying, why I wrote it. And so it really did help me nail the quick pitch. And so now it's just in my head. Gosh, maybe I should just film a video for myself, just to just to train myself next time because

I find it so difficult, but you did such a great job. I mean, it sounds amazing. I knew a lot of that,

but even I am discovering new things about it hearing you talk about it more openly. And yeah, how exciting. And oh, I don't think I said it's out in the US and Canada on October 13, 2026. And it will come out in the UK and the British Commonwealth, but I don't know when yet that is thrilling. And most importantly, you can all pre-order it right now and add it to your want to read shelves on good reads and tell your friends, tell your libraries.

Please, I would be so honored. It is felt so good to be able to talk about this book finally. And to people have been so supportive and excited generally, but to have that be specific, to have people's energy coming towards me, being excited about the cover, being excited about the pitch, being excited about the specifics of this has been so invigorating and meaningful to me. Oh, I'm right before we got on. I was still haven't gotten through all of my DMs from yesterday,

and I was reading some of them. And I'm just a ball of great, oh, mush. I feel like everyone listening has been on this journey with you. Truly, as just proud of you and happy for you,

“because it just takes so much work. Any book takes so much work. And this book, especially, I think, has”

been a journey. And yeah, it's inspiring to see it come to fruition in this way. Is there anything about this moment that feels different than you expected? I know it's kind of like, I think there are these moments in the book process where you kind of fantasize about them. Like, what's my caption going to be when I post the cover? And you know, you think about it a lot when you're kind of in the work. And I'm wondering if there's something about it being here or this moment being here

that feels different than you thought it would? No, I think I was anticipating being able to share and not being able to. But I don't know that it feels different. Did something about your pre-publication or announcement feel different for a little one that you expected? Hmm, I guess maybe it was different in the sense that I wasn't really sure if people would care as much. And so it was pleasantly surprising to see that people did care, you know, and that people just hadn't

like left or the like, no, I'm out, you know, it's not, this isn't your first book anymore. We

“don't care. I think that was nice. I guess. And I think also it feels as exciting as the first time”

in a lot of ways to like there is a sense that you're like, oh, it's just going to feel different

oh, I get to keep doing this, you know, and I know what's coming a little bit. In it's been a few years, you know, my first book came out in 2023 and we're announcing this in 2022. And so that feels far enough away that this isn't normal for me. It's not like I publish a book here and it's like, oh, this is the time of year when I get to announce it, and this is what happens. Like, like, oh,

“it still feels so special and like exciting and unbelievable. Yeah, I think that is the benefit of”

having more time, too, is that, I mean, I always think about like, if you're in a book a year,

it's just your constantly in this, you know, it's like there's always something I look forward to. You know, there's no role whatsoever. And so you don't get to sort of build up that anticipation again. Which is kind of a fun part of it, too, even if the weight is sometimes hard. But yeah, so thrilling, so happy for you. And so happy for us all that we get to read. Yes, a big year for baton paper host books. Expect zero in 2027. So,

well, I'm so excited to read it and just to go along the journey with you. Thanks. Where to come? Well, what is your low? Okay. So my low is I have another apartment complaint. I swear I'm so happy here. This is my three week anniversary. And on the whole, I am spectacularly grateful and excited about this apartment. And so it's not going to be like every week. It's a different complaint. But I do have a complaint this week. What is it? The heat is different here. And it's drier.

It's much drier. And I think also I'm having some stuffy nose issues. And so I think I'm sleeping with my mouth open at night. And every morning, I wake up feeling like I have just clawed my way through the Sahara Desert with my mouth gobbling the sand like a hungry hungry hippo.

“And I am so dry. It's quite the visual. Yeah. That's what I'm doing. That reminds me of sort of like”

the sand worm and dune. Yeah. I'm so dry. My skin, too. I just, I feel so parched here. I, oh, you're talking about this. But I think radiator he, I'm assuming you have some version of that probably. I don't know. When we use ours more, it's just the whole house feels different and weird and your skin feels, your my skin feels like tight and gross. And yeah, well, I hope you adjust. Also, we're in the, we're in the home stretch. I'm not fixing it at all.

That's an extra problem. I'm just waiting it out. Right. We were just looking at the forecast before we started recording and there's two days in the next 14 day forecast that are in the 60s. And so I'm almost there. Yeah. Every year I get to this, I mean, I always talk about this. But I always just remember how good those first days of spring feel when the sun is out and you roll your windows down and flowers are starting to, what did you have skirt day in college? Oh, no. But you've

talked about this before. Yeah. The first thing you could always think about this. Yes, it's a

spiritual skirt day for me. Yeah. And also, there is a new Noah Kahn album that's coming out around the same time that these warmer days should hit here. And I'm just, that first day, I'm driving around blasting that watch out world with a fountain-type hook. You're going to be unstoppable. I'm going to wind in my hair free as a bird. I'm going to be so happy. Wow. What about

“you, Duval though? I don't. I am really really loving being home for a bit. Are you saying so?”

No, loves. Well, let's take an ad break and let's get into this episode. This episode is sponsored by McMillan Audio. Just the other day, I finished reading Lady Tremaine by Rachel Hawkehouser. And I kept thinking while I was reading how magical this book would be on audio. It is atmospheric and fantastical. And the prose is also just so gorgeous. This book is pitched as Cersei meets Bridger 10, which is a good way to think about it. But I think

the easiest way to explain it is that the plot is a Cinderella retelling where we are re-learning everything we thought we knew about the evil stepmother character. It really is very different than anything I have read in years. And I just flew through what I think I read it in roughly 24 hours. It just felt really cinematic. And that is another reason why I think this

will be so good on audio. Even absent this ad, you are probably the third person I have heard

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You put me first in here and I'm feeling insecure.

Well, just now that our picks are sandwiched between very, very good listener picks, as I said, and as I was going through these voicemails, they really, first of all, I hadn't heard of the majority of these books. Second of all, they run the gamut from celebrity memoir to self help to sports related to reality TV focused, like literally there's everything. So between us and them,

“I think we will provide something helpful. And I do want to hear your picks as well, Becca. So”

before you hear my picks, I'm, you know, doing a little sock show in here. Can you talk to me a little bit about what's your relationship with non-fiction reading? I don't really have one. Okay. I will pick up something if it uniquely appeals to me in some way or if Buzz has reached such a point that I just feel like I need to be part of the conversation. But it's not that I don't like it generally. I've had wonderful experiences with non-fiction.

I've read non-fiction that I recommend to everyone, which we'll get to those picks. But I just, it's not something I am drawn towards naturally. It's a little bit like romance for me in that way. It's like when I find when I really like, I really love it and I'll tell everyone about it,

“but it's just not never gonna be like the first thing I'm drawn to taste-wise. What about you?”

Why do you feel self-conscious about your picks? Well, because I identify as a serial non-fiction

of the end-inner, I always have good intentions, but I have poor follow-through. Like, I should not admit

this, but I DNF'd not for lack of enjoyment, but just never finished becoming by Michelle Obama. Like, I, I, I did enjoy that one a lot. I always have good intentions. And I think what I've learned is that the way that I need to consume non-fiction is generally on audiobook, and that's the way to get me to do it. However, I don't prioritize a lot of audiobook time in my life, right? I think when I go for walks, especially during the week, when I am in the process of writing

something, I try to listen to music. That's like a very creative time for me. And so, I don't listen to audiobooks then. And then what I'm commuting, I tend to use that for podcast listening. And so, the best time for me to read a non-fiction audiobook is usually if I'm traveling on the

car to the airport going through security, waiting for my flight. Like, I don't always listen to

an audiobook then, but that tends to be my most reliable time. And so, it's just not something that I have in my routine. Yeah, I'm the same way. It's not part of my routine at all. Although I do really like listening to Glamour's Trash, which is a podcast recapping non-fiction book, mostly memoirs, which I'm like Olivia, you could just read them, because you really enjoy these episodes. But for some reason, having someone dissect it for me just feels good, but I don't know.

Maybe one day, I'll get more into it. Yeah. We'll tell me your picks. Okay. So, I picked five because you picked five. I didn't know what the brief was here. I thought five was a nice round number. I don't know. Great. Odd, but anyway, go on. So, two of them, the first two of them will not be

“surprising to anyone whatsoever. The first one is Big Magic, Violet Smith Gilbert, which also I think”

is probably the book that I reread the most times. And I cannot overstate the impact that this book has had on my life. It came out in 2015. I read it for the first time, probably in 2015 or 2016. And at that time, I did not conceive of myself as a creative person. I thought that I was a numbers person. I was a left brain person. I was an analytical person. And this book, which is Elizabeth Gilbert's kind of meditations on creativity, on the writing process, really fundamentally changed how I think

about myself. There's an anecdote very early in the book about a friend of hers who I think, if I remember correctly, it's maybe a lawyer. And in her 40s or 50s, decides to take up

good enough that she was never going to go to the Olympics. And she restarted doing it in her 40s

and 50s. And she doesn't have any aspirations to do it professionally. She just wants to do it because it brings for joy. And how that becomes kind of a highlight of her weekly routine, re-contextualizing what it means to be creative and not needing to be the best at it or not needing

“to be professional at it, really change something in my brain and how I think about it. And now that”

I do do this professionally, there's so many times throughout any given year that I think about random tidbits from this book. Like I think all the time about this story about Liz Gilbert writing this book that she ended up abandoning and then and patch it writing a book that was eerily similar

to it. And just like the way that she laughed at that as, oh, the university's funny and

tricksy as opposed to being mad about it or comparing herself to and patch. I think about that when all the time, think about there's this quote and it where she says something to the effect of if I'm not creating something, I'm destroying something. And I think about that all the time when I get out of practice of writing or sitting down and doing something, I think about that. I don't know if it's as true for me as it is for her, but it's just like the act of continuously doing

something creative is worthwhile in and of itself. Yeah, this book has been like tremendously

“important to me. Yeah, you know, I think I'd never finish this. Oh, but it's a weird is like,”

I still remember really liking it. I remember underlining a bunch of stuff. I remember taking notes. I still remember one of the quotes about measuring your worth by the commitment to your own path. So maybe I am also a bandender about fiction, but I did really love it as well. It's a special book for sure. Yeah, I was in this practice of rereading at every January for three or four years. And I haven't done it the last couple of years. I haven't felt the need to, I felt maybe

like after reading it so many years in a row, the text was less surprising because more of it had sunk in for me. But it is something I think about often. And I'm so grateful to how it opened up my own perception of myself. Well, what's your next pick? My next one, not a surprise.

“Open book by Jessica Simpson, which I think is the peak celebrity memoir for me. This is what”

I'm always chasing when I read a celebrity memoir. And I think that she cracked a code for me

and that she was so worth coming in a way like she was telling shit that people didn't know about because she wanted to. And there was something so addictive about that book. I went into this book, having no feelings about Jessica Simpson. You know, I grew up in that female pop star, rat race era where it was Brittany, Christina, Jessica, Mandy Moore. And I always really identified as like a Britney fan. And you know, I was aware of her music, but I had no feelings about her as a

person. I watched the newlyweds. I have a really strong memory of her having this spin out when she was turning 23 and her saying to Nick Lishay, saying 23 is halfway to 25 and 25 is that you're late 20s and that's old. And I thought about that. At the time, I remember thinking about that when I was turning 23 when I was turning 25 when I was in my late 20s. Now I just look at laugh at it, but like that really stuck in my head. Also, I'm sorry, to conceptualize being married

at 23 is so wild to me. Well, she's really religious and so right. And it was no sex before marriage. So that was her whole thing. Yes, wild. I read this too. I just 20, like it's just such a jarring, I can't even imagine. And I can't say how much of this book has to do with the time I read it. I read this in the really early days of COVID lockdown. And I would just walk, I'm going these long walks, because I'm nothing to do. And I was so anxious. And I would just listen to the audio book

of this. And I developed such a strong parasocial relationship with her, but I'm like my best friend Jess, Jess and I go on walks together. And oh my god, it's so interesting. She was in these circles. And I guess it would have been like the late 90s or early 2000s where she was auditioning for the Mickey Mouse Club. And you know, she was with young Britney Spears and Ryan Gosling and Justin Timberlake. She was like, I think she was like on tour with Beyonce when Beyonce was doing

Destiny's child. Like there's just so much great early 2000s stories in it. I don't know. I'm like, I'm Team Jessica. I want nothing but good things for her. I do have a group chat with

stories that Jessica sends them come up and we send them and we kind of like try to assess how she's

“doing. I get the idea maybe not great, but correct me if I'm wrong there. Is she doing well?”

I'm going to play the fuck. Okay. Okay. But I want to tell you that I want nothing but good things for her. Right. I'm with you there. Nothing. Nothing but good things for Jessica. Yeah. Yeah. Oh my gosh. Like such a good memoir. And this is why I'm really excited for Brandy's because I feel like Brandy is a similar level of fame to Jessica Simpson where I'm like will it be equally juicy? We'll have to see. It's coming out soon. All right. What next? Okay. So my next one is this, I guess one might call it

an oral history kind of. It's called all have what she's having. How Nora Efron three iconic

films saved the romantic comedy by Erin Carlson. And I read this, I guess kind of indirectly as

research for back where we started. The character is an actress. She wants to be a rom-com type

“actress akin to a Julia Roberts Meg Ryan type. And so I don't know. I thought this might just be”

interesting color for what it was like on set or I'm not sure. And I don't know that anything informed my book whatsoever. But I loved this book. It goes through the making of when Harry Met Sally, Sleepless and Seattle. And you've got male. And all three of them are movies that are so iconic. I feel like personally I feel the strongest affinity for you got male. But hearing the history behind them and the twists where they almost didn't get made or that you

know, the content of it was different, especially with when Harry Met Sally, there was almost an ending where they didn't end up together. And then Rob Reiner, Rest in Peace, met his wife while they were making that movie. And all of a sudden felt much more romantically optimistic. And they changed the ending. I love that. The sounds great. Oh, it was so good. It was so fascinating. And, you know, those movies are movies that I've seen so many times. So like, I feel like I have

their burned in my brain. I have the reference point. Sort of hear some of the behind the scenes. It's like the the a-tone behind the music of these movies. I would love that. Yeah. Great audio book. I really enjoyed this. Okay. Well, tell me your final, your final two picks. My fourth one's a wild card. I don't know how much I've talked about this before. But I feel like I can now because I'm talking about my book. So as research for my book,

there is a plot line involving Eedy Sedgewick and Andy Warhol. My character in the book has recently starred in a biopic where she plays a Eedy Sedgewick. And this is a time and history 60s, factory, New York, everything surrounding any Warhol that I have a like a deep personal fascination with. I don't consider myself a fan of historical fiction or anything like that. But like there's two eras. And one is 60s era Warhol factory. And one is 1920s era

jaz age New York that I'm just deeply compelled by. And so this is a biography of Eedy Sedgewick. And it goes very deep. It starts like maybe two generations before her in her family. And she is from such a big family. But also a very idiosyncratic family with a lot of mental health issues before there was a vernacular for speaking about them or treatment for them. And the book is fascinating. It goes from kind of her family history through to her death. And it obviously

focuses very heavily on the era where she was Andy Warhol's girl of the year 1965. This was a pleasure to read. And it's so rich of you know, she has this reputation as just kind of like this pretty model. And like there's so much history there. I don't know. I thought it was fascinating. I know nothing about Eedy Sedgewick. So I'm very interested in this plot line in your book, but also in learning more. Because I just I don't know thing. I had this friend and college who

was obsessed with Eedy Sedgewick. And she was really obsessed with her style and dressing like her.

“And I think you know, I was impressionable at that age. And I was like, oh yeah, she is really cool.”

And it's so shitty. Because there's this movie. But Harvey Weinstein produced it. So it's like, oh, like he's not starring in the movie. But he's from the movie. So it's like, where does that leave us? But this is movie called Factory Girl that I remember watching when it

came out that I was so obsessed with. And yeah, she's just always a figure. Andy Warhol too is

actually this whole exercise was really interesting for me because I went through both my current

booktracker. And then I went through all of the books I've read and goodreads kind of like trying to figure out what my five were that I would recommend. And so it not only these books, but it just

“brought up a lot of book memories. And I was like, oh, yeah, I forgot about that. But I think my last”

one is a memoir called No One Tells You This by Glynas McNeckle. And I think I read this two years ago. I bought it and started reading it like back when it came out, which might have been a few years before that. And it deals with her turning 40 is a big plot point in it. And being single, being childless, she's dealing with caring for her aging parents who live in Canada. And she's kind

of going back and forth to New York. And she's a journalist, she's a writer. And I just, I thought

this was so compelling because it's not a story that you hear or read. And she's not, you know, she obviously has thoughts on being single and being childless, but it's not a lack in her life. And I found this so empowering to read her experience. And I, you know, have continued to follow her

“and read her work. She has a follow-up memoir called I'm mostly here to enjoy myself about”

right after kind of vaccinations came out after COVID. She went to Paris for a summer to like eat food and hapsacks and like just enjoy life. And yeah, I'm almost kind of compelled to revisit this one, meaning no one tells you this as I approached my 40th birthday later this year. But I just, I thought this was so I feel like empowering as such an overused and like, it's a word that almost kind of lacks meaning because it gets used in so many ways that aren't particularly empowering.

But like, I do feel like this was empowering an addictionary meaning of the word to read and to see a model of somebody who's in her 40s, thriving in different areas for life and also working for really difficult things. You know, thinking about caring for aging and alien parents. But yeah, I really love this. And I've heard from many podcast listeners who who read it

“since and really enjoyed it too. Oh, good. I think I have either one or two books by her on my”

shelf and I just have never gone to them because of my, you know, nonfiction issues we've now learned.

But I've heard really good things as you were saying. So it sounds sounds like a very refreshing read. This one's really great on audio specifically because it feels almost like a podcast. Oh, that's appealing to me. Yeah. That's appealing to me. Yeah. Yeah. I might revisit this one. Yeah. See if there's a time when you're like, I don't know. I think when I first read it, I was too far away from 40 and I read the first couple chapters and I think I read it hard copy

in a paper book and I just didn't grant me. But then the listening to her narrated on the audio really did it for me. Okay. Yeah. That sounds like something I would like to listen to in the car quite a bit. Yeah. So yeah. I'm going to look into this. Okay. Should we listen to some listener voice mail? Let's. Hi, back at Olivia. This is Katherine. When I was talking about one of my favorite nonfiction books to the Sun by Emily Nussbaum. It's about the invention of reality TV and how

it got to be where it is today. I love books about the history of TV and movies and this one is so good. I'm not even a huge reality TV person. But I found this endlessly fascinating. I learned so much and Emily Nussbaum is a great TV critic and writer. Her other book I like to watch is also great. So just big recommend. Hi, thank you, I'm Olivia. One of my favorite books I've watched here was we might just make it after all by this friendship with Kate Spade.

It's by at least Aaron's and some more of her friendship with Katie Dominion. They created Kate Spade together. It is so funny and sweet. Inspiring. It's really has sad moments and it's really joyful. It's about when they met in college and highlights their friendship was in the New York and just for Hustle of Making Kate Spade, what it is. It's really, it was core love story. It made you laugh out loud and cry. The relationship between Lisa and Katie is this singular and life

affirming but so relatable. I just didn't want to end. It was one of my favorite books of the year. Thank you. Hi, back in Olivia. This is Katie calling from outside the DC area with my number one nonfiction book recommendation and it's by the journalist Richard Lloyd Perry called "People Who Eat Darkness" published in 2012 and it tells the story of a true crime,

gets into obviously the investigation and then the trial but also just is a really interesting look at Japanese culture and one that I would highly recommend. Hope your listeners enjoy. Thanks.

Hi, back in Olivia. This is Joie-In from Los Angeles. I'm a longtime listener first time

taller but when I first heard a call in for nonfiction books, I had to call in with not necessarily

“night all time favorite nonfiction books, so certainly a current obsession that I think”

let's enter the battle table with like my current obsession is a book called "Pringibility" by Tuesday by more of the Indo-Chan and it's sort of under the Belskoke category of nonfiction. It kind of more about goal setting and time management and I found her approach really easy to implement and interesting and inspiring. A couple of examples are she encourages her followers or

listeners to plan one from all adventure and one day game adventure each week to plan your weekend

times. You're not just ideally fitting around on Saturday without a plan and a reminder is that if you do something three times a week, it's a habit. So even if your goal is to exercise five days a week, if you do it three days a week, you're still feeling it and sort of the jump like the perfect feeling I know needed to go ahead and eat those. So I really want to not and kind of recommending it to everyone and anyone I know. So the authority by Tuesday by more

out the Indo-Chan. Thanks for the podcast. Let's take an ad break and then we will get into some more bookpicks. This episode is sponsored by Quince. These days I am all about quality over quantity

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are worth it or not in the end because I always make a note next to the item like oh I shouldn't have

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nonfiction picks that you've brought to share. Yes, so I'm starting with probably my most can't shut up about it. Nonfiction book that I can remember reading in a really long time and I've talked about it here a bunch, so I'll be brief, but that is a marriage at sea by Sophie Elmhurst. This is the story of a husband and wife whose sailboat capsizes because a whale hits it. So we're starting out very dramatic and then they survive period are we in here. This is in 1973.

“Okay, I think when you've pitched this before, I may be in my head made up that this was much more”

1800s. No, no, this is in the 70s. It's this very interesting man and woman and to the story is a little bit about how they meet, how they come to be, how they choose not to have children, how they end up on the sailboat and yes, essentially their boat capsizes and they survive

in the Pacific Ocean. And so is Sophie Elmhurst a biographer or is she one of the people

“who is on this raft? No, no, no, she's telling their story of their life and how they survived”

and what happened afterward and their personalities and it's just absolutely unbelievable. I love survival stories, but hearing about how they caught fish from this raft and turtles and seabirds and the things that they saw and the psychological task of surviving. I can't ever stop thinking about the fact that they were just, they had no solid ground under them for three and a half months.

Like that alone, that feeling, the feeling of always being damp, like your body always being

in some level of water of summer. Like I just, I push this into everyone's hands because it's just the most remarkable story ever. I cannot believe that they survived this. And when you look at the photos of the raft, it's even more wild. Like I read it and then looked at the raft and my jaw just dropped. I cannot believe it. I feel like your 2025 was your year of seafaring books. Yeah. Yes. Like it's like I'm really stressed you're still in the era. I feel like you're

still in authority on at sea survival stories. It's all I want to think about honestly. I'm reading a book right now that it has elements that are kind of similar to wild dark shore, like being

at a research lab on the edge of the ocean. And it's a little different because it's Antarctica.

But, well I guess, well there's Antarctica. It's supposed to be, yeah. I guess there's more ice in less water. But anyway, I just can't get enough of it. I can't get enough of your on a distant island, your in the ocean. I just can't. But there's a reason it's so popular. And I both read this and listen to it. I thought the audio was a little bit boring to me on this, but I did listen to it like the day after I had read it. So maybe I feel different if it was fresh. It's very hard for me to

do this episode because I'm not going to commit to reading more nonfiction, but the story sounds

“fascinating. You should just look up a photo of the raft. Okay. If you don't read it, right now Google”

a photo of this raft. How do I, how do I find it? A marriage at sea raft? If you Google a marriage

at sea and you look at the images, it's like the third one they're sitting in front of it.

This looks like a full toy when might have were a child. Yes. Yes. As they survived in that, that's wild. For it's just so crazy. I was not picturing that I had coverage over the top. Yes. It has a little hood, but just wow. And like how they were when they were rescued. Like anyway, I can go on and on. But that's a good pick. So my next pick is one of the first nonfiction books that I can remember reading and loving. And this is a book that I listened to right around

the time that I was getting more deeply back into the habit of reading regularly. This is probably in 2020. I would say maybe 2019. And this is maybe you should talk to someone by Laurie Gottlieb, who is a therapist. And this book is about her experiences at therapists, but also about her therapist. And it's just a wonderful story of like human experience and emotions. And it's so beautiful. Like I can remember sobbing listening to the audio book and just it having such a

profound effect on me and recommending it to everyone. I haven't read it now in quite some time.

“So I'm not sure how it has aged. But at the time, it was just really really meaningful. And I think”

it's like what made me actually go to therapy, which then changed my life. So yeah, I really recommend this one. I remember this being everywhere when it came out. This was such a popular book. And I remember it was at one point getting an adaptation, but that's different materialized as it. I don't think so. That's actually a good point. You're right. I'm not sure. It's something. I still remember one of the scenes of like saying goodbye to a client and knowing that you're

not going to hang out with them or see them again. And that's such a weird narrow human experience. You know, it's like you have this relationship with this person who you've told everything to. But you don't really know that much about them. You're not supposed to. And then you leave. And it's so sad. But that's the whole point of therapy is that eventually you'll grow it, you know. So anyway, I thought it was just a really a nice portrayal of that that human experience.

Yeah. What do you have for us next? The next one is actually one that I have read. And I have been thinking about rereading a lot lately. And that is 1,000 words, a writer's guide to staying creative, focus, and productive all year round by Jamie Addenberg. And I really

and it's something I read with my eyes on Hardcopy. Yes, same. And I'm so glad because I really,

“really want to go back to it and take notes. But it's really cool about this book. I think”

is that it's like a collection of letters partially from really famous writers. And each one is a little bit different. To me, it kind of reminds me of like reading the best sort of writing focus, sub stack essays, all in one place. Yeah, which is my favorite thing. And I just remember feeling so inspired by some of the passages. And yeah, I really want to go back to this. This is something that I have at times kept on my desk while I'm in a particularly unmotivated writing

period. And I will just flip to different essays. I think I might have tapped this book too. So I might just like go to a page that's tapped and just read an essay at random. Just the very huge experiences of different writers were some of that I read and I'm like, oh my gosh, this is exactly, it's as if you came into my head and are explaining what it's like for me. And some of them are so foreign to be in a way that I find really inspiring. I really enjoyed this

book too. That's a great idea to keep it on your desk. Maybe I'll copy you. I definitely want to find this and go back to it. Can you have bigger desk so that I can keep things around? Yeah, well, I have a huge one. It's it's very fun. But it's like, I'm looking around. It's chaotic. But you're more organized than I am. Okay. So my my next pick is not my type, one woman versus a president by E. Jean Carroll. We had E. Jean on the podcast and we read this book for that episode,

had it not been for the interview. I would have never, never picked this up, never read it in a million

years. There's exactly zero appealed to me in reading anything that is remotely about politics. And because the story is all about E. Jean Carroll holding Donald Trump accountable for

“him sexually assaulting her in the 90s, I believe. It just felt too close to, you know, the daily”

horror story we are living in. Well, also I felt like having watched the news coverage of this trial. I very much felt like what is there that I don't know about this story. And I was so surprised. The angle she took on it. And then I did feel like I was both adding richness to that and adding so many things behind the scenes that I didn't know. I found the drama around her legal team and like the prep for the trial to be fascinating. I totally agree with you. And for me,

this is a book I would recommend to everyone. It was super important in my life because I think that like many of us, I'm sure Donald Trump has become such a character, you know, like a horrible evil character. And we're so used to to a certain extent, him just being horrible all the time and making dangerous evil like inhumane decisions on the daily. And I think there was something that was super important to me about reframing him as it was almost like it reminded me of how

much of a monster he is in a super important way. Like I think we've all just gotten to this place where we're so used to him just being around and ruining everything. And it made me realize like

“how important it is to remember that he is just a human being and a terrible one at that. And if”

aging Carol who was sexually assaulted by him and not believed by so many people can take him to court and win and still stand up for herself and still tell the truth and still fight back after everything, then there's no reason why we should allow ourselves to become numb to it and to accept him as just like, oh, you know, ha ha, like, oh, this is horrible. Our lives are horrible. He's horrible. Like it's no, he's a real threat. And even if it seems impossible to get rid of him

on the public political stage, like we should still be fighting for that. So I found it really inspiring and I'm so glad I read it and I wouldn't have otherwise. I agree with you. I thought her perspective on it interviewing her. I mean in the book as well, but interviewing her her outlook and her fire for justice and taking him down was so much different that I may be expected and I found it so so inspiring. Yeah, yeah, definitely if you read it listen to our episode afterwards, because I think

you would feel the same way I hope you would. And finally, I mean, everyone has read this. I think

by this amazing. Oh, really? Yeah, I know we're going around to it because I felt like it felt

we'll say what it does. Yes. So it's I'm glad my mom died by Jeanette McCurdy, which is her memoir

dies. And yeah, I mean, maybe like you, I just it had been everywhere. I was like, okay, I get it and I ended up listening to it on audio when we were painting our house and we just needed something. And as soon as I started listening to it, I was like, oh, I completely understand why people talk about this book differently than they talk about so many other memoirs. And why this one is really

kind of rising above the rest. It's just so powerful. It is so vulnerable. It's so human. The writing

is amazing. Like it's just so much better than the pitch of it can really do it justice. And like

“there's a reason why it's so widely read. Yeah, I think I maybe avoided it because I knew that”

it was going to be dark. I find sometimes other people's real-life trauma. I'm like, oh, I don't who need to pile this. It's interesting, but I'm like, I don't need to pile this on top of my lived experience. I don't know. I think that I will watch the show that makes it to air. There's adapting it in Jennifer Aniston is set to play from mom, which I think will be very interesting. But I don't know. I just I feel like in this time, I cannot do too darker too heavy. I get that.

Yeah, I mean, I think that's really valid. It is quite heavy, but yeah, if that's something

you feel like you can handle, you're out there and you're wondering, or you've seen a study where you're like, I get it. I think it's still worth the read. Let's listen to a few more listener suggestions. Please. Hi, Becca and Olivia. My name is Emily. I'm calling a non-fiction book

“record edition. I recently listened to Disney High, the untold story of the rise and fall of”

Disney Channel's Queen Empire by Ashley Stunceref, and it was just so good. She starts with like the late 90s and like the non and even Steven, and then goes through everything. Shout out. Raven, and back in Cody, and Hannah Montana, and Hacks, for me, just call and they don't mind the demo,

it'll walk out on the jump. Then I just, like, I could like prep and click math to look onto my child,

but it was so, it was all day. I listened to a whole thing in like two days. It's super interesting. You're about behind the scenes, all that stuff, and all of the like business calculations that were being made. And I just think if you are also a millennial who is very invested in Disney Channel when you were a kid, it would be really interesting to you. So I haven't seen many people talking about it. So I wanted to call in and recommend. Bye. Hi, this is Tara from Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

One of my favorite recently read nonfiction books is Mark Hoppiss's Fahrenheit 182. You don't need to be a fan of Blink 182 to really enjoy this book, but growing up in the 90s and the 2000s around their music, it was just a really insightful fund behind the scenes look at the band in Mark's life in particular. Hi, back in Olivia. My name is Ashley, and I'm from Plano, Texas, and I've actually where my favorite recent nonfiction read takes place.

It's called Home School by Stephen Block, and it was actually Jenna's book club pick in January. This is an memoir mostly focused on Stephen Childhood and used in his relationship with his mother. His mom pulls him out of elementary school and starts homeschooling him in an unconventional way, but then he starts public school again in high school and has a totally redact to both social and educational norms. The relationship with his mom is central to the whole story,

and while there's a lot of funny parts, there's also a lot of sad and impactful moments that really affect who he is now as an adult. It's a quick and interesting read and I love anything that calls out 90s and early 2000s nostalgia, so I really recommend it. Congrats on both of your books this year. I just finished a little one and loved it so much, and back to I can't wait to read your book. Bye. Hey, back in Olivia. It's Anna from Oklahoma.

I'm calling to recommend my favorite non-fiction sub-genre memoirs by Pro and former Pro Women

“Runners. I don't think you have to be a runner or follow professional running for these”

books to be intriguing. For example, Legendary Marathon or Dina Castors Book, let your mind run. I'm a more of thinking my way to victory. Not only outlines Dina's journey from cross-country phenomenon to Olympic medalist, but details her strategy of using running as a meditation on nature and life, then there's care gouttersbook, the longest race, inside the secret world of abuse, doping and deception on Nike's elite running team, which dishes about her career with her

now disgraced 90 coach. A few similar titles on my TBR are Des Lendons, choosing to run, Laura Fleschman's Good For Girl, a woman running in a man's world, and cure tomatoes don't call it a comeback. Love the pod, and y'all's books and sub-stacks. Thank you for coming. Thank you.

a memoir recounting his journey from El Salvador to the U.S. alone when he was just nine years old

“to reunite with his parents. It is beautifully written and completely heartbreaking, and I”

thought about it frequently over the last several years since I've read it, especially as I watch ice in the news lately. I hope you guys check it out. It really is a wonderful book, and thank you so much for everything. Bye. Let's take one more ad break, and then we will get to our end-matter. This episode is sponsored by Wayfair. I know both Becca and I are very much in the home project

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“both things that I have purchased on Wayfair, both during this partnership and before,”

Wayfair has delivered when I'm searching for something specific and affordable. So I shoped Wayfair for my last home, and I'm absolutely planning on doing the same for my new home. I got this fantastic, full-length mirror, where I was looking for something really specific to fit into my already decorated apartment, and using Wayfair's filters was just made it so seamless to find something that was the right size, the right shape, the right price. One thing I'm really thinking about

using Wayfair for in my new home is I would like to replace the lighting in my bathroom, and potentially also the medicine cabinet, and I was browsing Wayfair the other night. I usually think of them for furniture, I guess, and I was so surprised by how many options they had in both of those categories. Find furniture decor and essentials that fit your unique style and budget. Head to Wayfair.com right now to shop all things home. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R-dot-com Wayfair, every style,

every home. What is your obsession? My obsession is the TV show love story, John F. Kennedy Jr. and Carolyn Besat on FX. Are you watching this? No, but I am seeing the obsession from afar. I had been seeing this everywhere. Grace told me to watch it. She said, "Go into it expecting it to be bad, but that she loved it." Something about that endorsement. I was like, I don't want to watch something that's going to, but I've low expectations for.

But I just got sucked up by the cultural obsession, and on Tuesday night, I got in bed early.

I have a TV in my bedroom for the first time in 15 years, and it feels really delicious to get

them to bed and watch TV. And I turned on the first episode. Olivia, I am so hooked on this show. Set in the 90s. It's very nostalgic in a way. It feels very sexy in the city. The style in this is phenomenal. Absolutely phenomenal. It's really making me wish I had long hair. I am so taken with this show. I ended up watching all four episodes that are out in the same night. I just gobbled them up, and I was watching with my phone in my hand, not because I was scrolling,

but because I was going on Wikipedia to Google all the people and to see about them,

“I, oh my gosh, I am loving this. I'm very excited. I think there's the fifth one”

came out yesterday, and I haven't watched it yet. I have been hearing good things. It seems like everyone is really into it. So good. I wonder how they're going to handle their death.

I, it makes me a little nervous. Well, they definitely handle it because the first episode opens

with them getting on the plane. Wow. And a flashback. Wow. Okay. Yeah, I don't know if I'm going to get to this, but maybe I don't know. Everyone's watching it. Maybe I will. I'm kind of out of things to watch right now. I'm also just really interested to see how this impacts fashion trends, because I think it will. And I think some of it, you know, people are sourcing pieces that are Carolyn Besat inspired based on what exists, but I wonder how it will impact runways

going into like future collections. It is just, oh, my God, it's so chic. Interesting. Interesting. I've been seeing a lot of takes on this on everyone's obsession with her style, and that's been fascinating to sort of scroll through. Also, the casting of it is so phenomenal, looking at pictures of Sarah Pigeon who plays her compared to Carolyn Besat. Oh, my gosh. And also that Sarah Pigeon was previously Burnett. And I, I would not have had a vision to say, yes, she will make a perfect

I had no idea. No. No idea. And the guy really does look like him. He does. The guy was a model

piece where he wasn't an actor. Can you tell? A little, but he's so, he, like, he's so dead on the look

“of him. That, yeah, it's fine. The, the acting is totally possible. Okay. Okay. Very nice. What about you?”

What are you obsessed with? I'm obsessed with Jesse Buckley, who is an actress and is probably going to win the Oscar for him. But I have been seeing a lot of her, like kind of press tour and her word speeches and stuff. And I just find her to be the most charming human being. Like every time she speaks, it's just like infectiously happy and interesting. She seems completely herself in every setting I see her and like just so warm and happy and smart and interesting. I think

her style is really cool. Like the dresses she's been wearing. She just wore this really cool, like corset, sheer gown to, I think it's called bride, bride a Frankenstein, the new movie that she's in that premiere. But I just, I love her. I think she is so cool. I want to be her. And it's just very clear to me that she's just like herself. You know, that's, she's the same now as she was when she was just a kid growing up in Ireland. And that is, I mean, of course, I could be wrong. But

that is really cool to see and also her performance in Hamlet is unbelievable. But I just think she's so cool. I have not seen Hamlet, but I have really enjoyed seeing interviews with her and Paul Maskel. And just like your mutual respect and admiration for each other. They just have the type of like platonic chemistry that's so fun to watch interviews. I totally agree. Yes. Well, what have you

read? I read a bunch of things. I have been on a tear. So the first thing I read was Nina and June

by Genevieve Wheeler, which doesn't come out until December. It comes out December 8th. And I

“read this for a blurb. That's why I'm reading so far in advance. And this is a friendship novel.”

Would you know, it's very much my jam. It's about two polar opposite best friends who meet and college and become each other's person. And it's told over nearly like 10-ish years. It goes into their early 30s. And they have had a massive falling out that you kind of like don't know what it's over. And I found this to be at turns like incredibly delightful. There's so many good pop culture references of the, I guess it would be like the early 2010s when they're in college. They go on a

lot of like trips and adventures that kind of reminded me of the vibe of people we meet on vacation. And then in the later chapters, I would just be like deliberately vague. It was incredibly heart-wrenching. So I really enjoyed this as a entry into the friendship fiction canon, especially for people who are

“eager to read about friend breakups or like tumultuous friend situations. I think this will really”

hit this spot for you. I can't wait to read this. Oh, also great cover. The second thing I read was

a book called Games, a Love Story by Anna Maria Volkoba. And this was previously a fanfic. And I believe might have been self-published and now it's gotten picked up and they're republishing it from a big vibe. It's a Dark Nina fanfic. So it's from Shadow and Bone, the TV show with Ben Barnes, which I was not familiar with. And so, okay, I'm struggling with how to describe this because it's going to sound like this, I'm giving it a bad review, but I'm not, but I think you just like

need to know what you're getting into because I thought I was getting into something very different. The reasons I ended up liking it were not the reasons I expected to like it. So it is a very spicy age gap romance. It's about this 23-ish year old. She's a graduate student in economics and she ends up in this relationship with a 40-something-year-old hedge fund manager. And it's compared to normal people meets 50 shades of gray. Which I think is right, but not for

the reasons I expected. So it really reminds me of, you know, that part in normal people. We're Marianne is a broad in college and she's having a lot of like really dangerous sex with the wrong people. It's that section of normal people. Okay. And then there is a BDSM component, but it is nothing like 50 shades of gray. And so I read this thinking it was going to be a very spicy romance. And it was, but the sex in it was for the most part like very scary to me. Like it was

compelled by was the emotional story in this of the female main characters journey. And also,

“to some extent, the combat of relationship between the two characters. To be fair, there was a”

sense of this that I felt like I was watching in history where it was so much about economic theory where I was like, I'm not actually sure what you're talking about. And like I like that you have complete opposite opinions and you're fighting about it. But like, do I know enough about economics to know what you're talking about or have my own opinion? I don't. So I really liked that aspect of it. And I really liked the emotional journey. I am going to be so fascinated to

see how this one does because this one is it's really dense. Like the amount of economic, theory and like opinions on global power in it. Like it is dense. It's a lot of happening there. A lot of happening. A lot of happening. A lot of happening. But I felt incredibly compelled by it. And then the last thing I read was I read play it again by my friend Georgia Clark. And this comes out June 16th. So this is the palette cleanser to this. This is like a really fun, rompy,

queer romance. And Georgia writes ensemble romances. So it's always told from multiple points of view.

And there's multiple love stories in it. So this one is about a group of four people who met as teenagers when they were cast in a community theater production of Rosencrantz and Gilder Steiner dead. And they are called back to help save the local theater now that they're in their 30s. It's like 20 years later. And they star in a revival. And there were romantic relationships between multiple of the cast members. So they're also kind of reconnecting with each other after

20 years as adults. And kind of like finding their way back to each other. I thought this was so fun. The writing was so sparkly and like fantastic. And it reminded me of shit's creek. It's not as over the top as shit's creek. But like the theater, the small townness of it, like the

“quirkiness of it, it was really fun. I think this will be this is just like a great summer read.”

Well, what a nice selection of things. I know. I really, I really read this week. But yeah, you really did. But a lot for the TBR. What about you? What did you read? I'm reading currently like six books. I'm not really sure how I got in there. It's not monogamous reader right now. I really am more than probably ever, which is a little frustrating because it obviously takes me much longer to finish things. But I do have one thing I finished,

which is Lady Tremaine by Rachel Hawkehouser. I already mentioned this briefly. But yeah, this is the is a retelling of Cinderella story from the evil stepmother's perspective. And I wasn't sure how I was going to feel about this. I really wasn't. But I ended up really enjoying it. And it gave me so much to think about. As we all know, I'm a lifelong ever after fan. So it gave me a lot to think about in that context. Because there are elements, of course,

than both being Cinderella stories. There are elements that are similar. But there are a few moments in this book that just really, like I immediately understood why it was such a splashy acquisition and such a huge deal. And we'll probably continue to be everywhere. Because there are just some moments where you're like, "Yes, that was unexpected." And that was perfect.

And that goes down to the language, too. There were some really, really powerful writing. I

thought that I wanted to underline. And so I loved that about it. But yeah, it's kind of like it feels like fantasy without the dragons and the magic, you know? And I really liked that about it. It was very transporter than that way. So I have two things to add here. So first of all, also the author is the founder of Peacework Puzzles. My favorite, yes, photo Puzzle Britain, which I found so fascinating. And then the second thing is that I was initially not really

attracted to this book because I don't love things that are historical. And necessarily, and that was the vibe that was getting. And Grace read this a couple of weeks ago. And she

“immediately was like, "You will like this. You need to read this." So I'm kicking it back onto my”

TBR on her recommendation because I think she's probably the person who maybe knows my reading taste. Busters, like my best predictor of like what I will like. But yeah, she said the same thing about thinking of it more like fantasy than historical, which it's not, it's not historical. Because there are quite a few things that like, you realize that it's a world that could not exist in a lot of ways. But there's no magic in the traditional sense. But in terms of like

Yeah, yeah. It was different than I thought it would be. And a good way.

“Okay. Well, I mean, we just gave you a ton of wraps. But if you're in need of more,”

we have our March booklet pick, which I'm so excited about, which is so old, so young, by Grant Ginder. Another friendship fiction novel. So this is about a group of six friends from

college. And it's told from kind of their early 20s through their mid 40s. And it's told

over the course of five parties. So that's the only time we see these characters. It starts with a

“kind of shitty New Year's Eve party in their early 20s. There is a destination wedding. There's”

a, no, I'm questioning if it's a 35th or a 40th birthday party. But you know, some kind of milestone,

birthday party. There's a Halloween party in the suburbs. And you get to see these characters kind of

age and how their friendships grow and change over the years. And I just could not help but mapping people I knew in real life onto this. I found it to be so accurate to friend group dynamics. And I enjoyed this so so much Ellen Hill to Brandt said that it was a big chill for our time. So it's a very good like middle age novel too. I'm so excited to discuss this. Me too. And if you would like to discuss anything, we have talked about today. Give us even more nonfiction racks. You can join

us in the Baton Paper Facebook group in the Baton Paper BFF group, formerly known as Geneva on the Baton Paper Instagram under Baton Paper podcast. And I am on Instagram and Substack at Olivia Mentor. You can buy my book little one or my books such about influence wherever you get books.

“And you can pre order Becca's book right now. And you should. Yes. I'm on Instagram at Becca. I'm”

Freeman. My newsletter is at Becca Freeman.substack.com. Check out the newsletter. I talked about the story of how and why we changed the title, which is not particularly interesting, but I think some people will want to hear it. So I talked about that there. And yes, you can pre order my book back where we started wherever books are sold. And if your good reads user would love it if you added on there to help people discover it or same for story graph. And I'm so excited for you to read it. Bye

everyone. Bye.