MOVIE NIGHT: ‘The Decline of Western Civilization’ with Alex Ross Perry, Plus An Interview With Director Penelope Spheeris

episode about the decline of Western civilization. We cover a lot of artists and bands

who engage in questionable and fairly indefensible use of Nazi iconography. We never

“mean to gloss over that in these episodes. The truth is the idea that anyone on Earth”

would support or condone Nazi ideology is always so preposterous to me. But also, I'm aware that that's so naive of me to think that there aren't many people in the world today who do uphold those abhorrent and hateful beliefs. My job you guys as I see it is to provide context in every instance that I can. The context here, specifically in relation to the germs is that they did prominently use Nazi iconography and imagery and it

is highly visible in the first decline film. As young punks, the germs obviously were interested in provocation and pushing people's buttons like the sex pistols and a lot of other punk bands that came before them, they used Nazi imagery to that end. The rest of the context here for what it's worth is that Darby Crash and Pat Smith have both gone on record in interviews saying they do not hate or discriminate against Jewish people.

The earliest 70s punk scene was by all accounts or at least most accounts quite diverse and inclusive. I wasn't there, but this is what I've learned from my research. 50 years out, of course, it's still pretty difficult to reconcile and understand these things and it's certainly not our place on this show to defend or uphold any of it. There is no perfect way to talk about this stuff, but I just wanted to take a minute up top to address

it more directly and more thoughtfully and more seriously and just again to try to do my job to provide as much context as possible. So I just wanted to say that for again to the episode and now let's talk about the decline of Western civilization and Penelope's

“viewers this phone crew. What's with this band anyway? I don't get it, can you please explain? Wait, like, band's flame?”

I've never heard this band in my life. Oh, you haven't, let's look, I really want. Yeah, I love the song. Oh, I don't know that one.

Hello, and welcome to Band's Plane. I am your host, Yasisog. This is a show where I invite expert guest on to help me explain a cult band or iconic artist. Or it is usually. Today's episode is a little bit different. Today's episode is a movie night and it is about the decline of Western civilization. My guest today is filmmaker Alex Ross Perry. Also, we have a very special interview after this with the director herself Penelope's viewers, so make sure to stick around for that. First, Alex, how do they let all you long hairs in here? Into the, into the Spotify offices? Well, it's 1980. Can't you afford a haircut? I was just quoting the decline.

“Right, right, yeah. I thought that's leaving saying that. Did they scan your backpack at the entry of this building? No, I think you look maybe more suspicious.”

I love that this movie. I've, again, like, seen it many times. Right, inimitable in many ways. And then you turn it on and I'm like, I'm not sure if ever seen a movie where the subjects read the filming disclaimer in the movie. Which I love and I feel like the town is like, what a genius. Yeah. Just already from jump. This is genius. And the way each of them reads it is like, you so much per night. It's all those uponca they read it. Like, Darby's like unintelligable because he's obviously wasted. It takes a second to realize what they're doing. What's happening? Because it's not impossible that at this time or at any time, some grandstanding punk would pull out a piece of paper and make some statement during a show.

Propagondy, let's talk more short. And yeah, just to have that be the beginning is instantly clever and meta, much like the beginning that you've just set up that I bungled by. It's truly not realizing the quote. Okay, attention. Attention for the third time, attention.

Please be advised that please be advised by your entry upon these films. It's just like always really sticks with me because I'm like, oh, that's such like a seven days thing like long hair.

You know, like, um, okay, before we just get into all of it, tell me about your relationship with this movie. Like, when did you first come across it? How old were you and what was the context?

Totally because it was very difficult to access that. Yeah. So I feel like the title loomed large and even before I knew what the movie was, you knew that that was the name of a movie. And I don't think I would have seen it prior to when I moved to New York and started renting from and then working at Kim's video. Um, which I started renting from as soon as I started going NYU, then I started working there. And I just have so many memories of where, you know, Kim's had so many bootlegs and things of dubious.

We got the, we're even just the old out of print tapes that if you live somewhere else, he wouldn't be able to track down these films or certainly three was like just not available at all.

“Yeah. And I just remember watching it in the store constantly, like it's just made that beyond in a store selling movies or research.”

Because it's like you can jump in at kind of any point and be like, and there's so many iconic scenes that you can see that I've seen I've watched the decline once a year for like 10 years. I never get sick of this year. I've watched it like four times considering how aggressive it is and how loud and brush the subjects and, you know, for the taste of some people. I'm sure the music is it is weirdly just kind of like relaxing as something that you could just throw on because it's rhythms are so peculiar and that it's just like talking song, talking song, talking song and it kind of feels

just like meditative in a way. If you can take pleasure in the music, which I'm sure many people can't. So I remember getting to the store and finally having access to it and and that's, you know, you're in love. Well, we were just like, I had a lot of friends and we, well, no, I didn't have a lot of friends. The friends I had a lot of them, we would regularly curate called movie Saturdays where two different people would pick different movies, double features, so that they would be too completely incompatible movies in one of my friends was a real music nerd underground musician.

So he would always want to put these movies on or herb music or things like that that the rest of us were just not keyed in on. And around that time it just became.

Yeah, like something that if it was sitting there at the store, you would put it on.

“And you had a pre-existing relationship with the bands, obviously.”

At that time, or no, X, yes, which is something I'm curious to talk about. Like, I feel like at that time I had X and black flag and that was probably around the time that the germs collection came out. Right. Like the full germs. Yes. I don't think at that time I had any relationship with fear. Right.

At that time, I probably had no, I mean, who am I forgetting Catholic discipline and all that. Yeah, I mean, circle germs. I feel like we're around even still because they are like, as of the 90s, we're still considered like if you were into like California upon hundreds.

“You would end up getting circle jerks or, you know, stuff like they always looped them in with something like the vandals, even though I'm sure their careers don't start at the same time.”

They don't, but they do, the vandals are go back pretty far as well, though, because they start off dudes, which was not was like 83, I want to say.

I'm not basically racist film dudes, which is, by the way, if you guys have not seen incredible, it's John Cryer.

I forget that other actors name, but fleece also in it. And it's like a dude buddy comedy. Yeah. And the vandals are the band that starts it off. Are you talking about suburbia? No, I'm talking about dudes.

Cause fleece also in that. Yes, there's also many suburbia thoughts. But so I guess, yeah, by that time, if I'm watching the movie, half or two thirds of the bands are known to me, at least in passing. And then, I mean, Alice Bag, I guess I'm more aware of now, isn't like, I feel like she had a longer career than this movie. Yeah, she doesn't look like a punk.

What do you call it, like, a person that's like just out in these streets, kind of always like speaking about the truths of the word punk.

And then, yes, some of them, I had no relationship with them, and still don't. Okay, well, let me just do that for a second before we get to the end of the lead. It's hard to know how to approach the movie. Right. As I told you, your dig conversation was so thorough and focused and informative.

I have a lot to live up to. No, you're going to be great. I can already tell. Well, the decline of Western civilization is a film, a documentary film directed by a Penelope Spheres that was filmed from December of 79 through May of 1980. Sort of at like, I don't want to say the peak, but kind of it was like the swell of the LA punk scene that after that didn't really exist in the same form.

Penelope Spheres was dating at the time and then actually later married Bob Biggs, who was the, I believe, money guy,

behind slash magazine and then the kind of the proprietor of slash records, which is actually partly to do with why so many of these are slash records. Yeah, favorably shown in the movie. Well, it's funny. You say that because I actually listened to an interview with a, I don't want to do the name, but kind of like an 80s hardcore band guy who was like trying to sort of submerge Penelope Spheres by being like, oh, this was kind of like a, like a marketing film for slash.

And Penelope, when I asked her about it and you're here in the interview, she was like, they Bob literally made fun of me. What he, he, what, doesn't, did not want me to do this. No one was supportive of this, like it was absolutely was not. She, she was like, these were just the bands I had access to because of my friendship with slash, which totally makes sense because like who else is going to let you film them. You know, yeah, no, I mean, even like, and this is something else that at the time was very apparent as it like someone who had grown up like,

you buy like a black flag record, it comes with an SSD catalog and then you're like mail ordering five more hundred percent.

“So you sort of like, to me, you have saccharine trust seven inches and you're like, hell, you know, to me in the early 2000s, like grouping things under the umbrella of a company made sense because that was kind of the only way you could cure it.”

Yourself totally. And that was, that was also like a good part of the scene. I mean, there's a couple of bands that you would think that might have made sense to also be in this. Like the weirdos would have made sense. They were very much part of that scene, but they were also like really art school, you know, so like they might not have fit in quite as well. And we should talk about when we get more into it about how X kind of sticks out like a source on a little bit amongst these bands. There are many thoughts about that. Yeah, I love they were the band. I certainly knew the most. I feel like just as a as a young radio hits in the 90s.

Like what? Well, I mean, I think they were old. They were older songs. They would play nobody walks in LA. That song is not going to anybody walks in LA. They are actually not play this in Philadelphia. Okay, absolutely not on the radio. Like I grew up listening to X songs on care. Yeah, I'm excited. I feel like they're very much in the pantheon of like California bands.

I have so many thoughts on X that are, but they're like, you know, like the Los Angeles and wildgift were albums that Anybody had to go through those albums by the time you were 20 years old. If you're growing up listening to punk music. Yeah. So it was very much. Like it was them black flag, although obviously at this time, my younger fandom was like, oh, this is like pre Henry Rollins black flag. How interesting because to me, I was like two or three singers.

Right. You know it. Right. You don't know how much did you know about that. Yeah, there's no like this is one rage with everyone's members. Yeah, this one's wrong. Yes, which is also to me an interesting aspect of like, kind of one of the many things that this movie,

“kind of miraculously puts a pin in, which is like the kind of low key multiculturalism of these scenes,”

which are often accused of being anything but.

And then like, be it dead Kennedy's or like round raise or like even swear, like this is just always like the California thing.

And I look down on the cell. California bands are pretty much always multicultural because California, so I'm not going to culture like even the germs pat smears half back. And I believe have German. Um, slash house bags slash the death tone. You can go over like this is just funny to me that to me that was so obviously a part of anything like this. Yeah, and then years later it's like all these being accused of, you know, like this like exclusionary scenes that were very like it's like, yeah, I don't know.

My, my impression was always like that it was no effects has like, you know, White trash, too. Yeah.

“Isn't it being exactly like a lot of these bands have some combination of those things.”

Yeah. Well, I just touch in a couple of things up and I'll be and then we can dive in. So I don't know if you know that she was raised in a carnival. Okay. If I knew that, I don't know it today.

I just think it's such an amazing detail because I mean, you're a filmmaker and you've made documentary.

I and I asked her about it. So you guys should listen to that to the interview, but I was like, I can't imagine what would shape a better person to make films like this than growing up in a carnival. Like being able to handle and thrive within chaos, how visually arresting. What kind of a carnival? Like literally or like a circus. A literal like traveling carnival with like freaks.

Okay. Tell she was seven. And then she went to high school in Orange County going up to LA seeing shows Dick Dale and stuff because she's a bit older than the subjects of decline.

And then went to UCLA film school.

Right.

“Which I thought was really interesting because at that time, you would not think that I can be a director.”

I'm a woman. So she didn't go to be a director. She just went because she liked film and she knew they had equipment. Yeah. And she might be able to use it and she was like all become like a script supervisor. Which was like, can you imagine?

Not like, because I feel like some people with similar trajectories were there to study photography or they knew that they could make documentaries. But they wouldn't get like the big, the big opportunity. Yeah. But she was just like, it's not on the table for me. But then she learned.

And then she founded through friends. She had a very cool and effective group of friends. One of them was at a big label. I want to say it's Columbia, I want to tell you sure. And it was like, you know how to make films.

Can you make music videos for us? This is 1974. There was no MTV. Nothing.

“But they needed these, you know, it was mostly life.”

It was bands playing. It wasn't like concept. Yeah. Yeah.

And so she had the first music video company in LA.

It was called Rock and Real. Okay. And she would make music videos. And later, this is my favorite fact. And again, I talked to her about it.

So listen, Lauren Michaels was her friend. Right. And he had started SNL. She also tells a funny story about him coming to her and the friends. And being like, I want to start SNL.

And let me look okay. He was like, oh, I have this comedian. He's great. But he doesn't want to be a player on SNL. He wants to direct, but he doesn't know how can you teach him.

And that man was Albert Brooks. Yeah. You told me that. And I feel like this connection. Like when you grow up, you know, growing up, you already knew Wayne's world.

Yeah. And then later, you're like, oh, that's interesting. The woman who made these rock movies was hired to do that. And then somehow later, like, not when I'm 10. But later, you're like, oh, so she actually had like a connection to that.

World of. Yeah. I mean, it already wasn't just he wasn't top. We like your documentary make this movie. Right.

Also like some pre-existing relationship where she felt like she could be called up to the big leagues to do like the SNL movie. Well, we talked to her about that too. So get into it. But anyways, I just the reason I wanted to point out these biographical details were just because I feel like they all sort of intersect to make to me how she was able to make decline. Make so much sense.

Yeah. You grew up in a carnival. You've directed live. Like live band footage, that's like kind of where you've cut your teeth. So you know how to do that.

And then she was just really interested in music. And she said she saw this punk rock scene again through this boyfriend. And it was like, I need to document it. And think, can you imagine? Thank God.

It's like one of the only visual documents we have of that time of this specific scene that's not just photos. Right. I don't want to be ignorant. Yeah. Say like, oh, there's nothing else because then people are going to be laughing.

They're going to be laughing. Well, actually, you know, there's some, there is like, as I texted you, when you reminded me when I was in Las Vegas to go to the punk music. Right. Like there was like a video of the germs. Like there's, you know, people brought in these video cameras.

And there is this difference in my mind between like people record people tape those shows versus like something beautiful and artistic was made about this. Yeah, seen in moment. And part of what I love about this movie is again, as you're, if you're 19 or 20, you're looking at so much of the material that was made in New York. Very well documented. Every direction, to even like list how much of that there is would be pointless.

But there's so much punk and no wave in new wave films, fiction, documentary, performance, photography.

“And to me, what I always found fascinating about this is that, to my mind at the time, it was the only thing like it.”

I'm sure there's something comparable, but certainly ten years into like downtown, New York being the artistic center of the world. People were filming and documenting a lot of what was going on. Yeah, and I'm just so curious, if anybody would have seen this absolute debauchery and just, you know, to me incredible. But objectively awful sounding music in some cases and thought, like there's actually something really interesting happening here.

Someone really needs to make a note of this because generations from now, this will be essential because it really seems like it would have been very easy to overlook.

And be like, yeah, there just was this scene that kind of nobody knew about or paid attention to because they're just playing in these clubs and right. A couple dozen people are there and of course no one ever thought to bring a camera in, so you don't have any footage of, yeah, these bands at their prime. If you think about it's borderline, a miracle that she found out when she did and captured it because it at like the germs. I'm driving crushed dies before the film even comes out, you know, so the germs are annihilated.

Always a great thing when that happens, like when there's some movie made and like, like, said versus dying before the Grey Rock and Rollswindle comes out where it's like, the thing becomes a ulogy.

darby laying down on stage with his eyes closed, looks to see, it's just really intense. I feel like the Todd Phillips GG Allen documentary also came out after he was dead.

Yeah, it's really hated. But besides besides that part, and this is another thing I want to talk to you about as a filmmaker because I know this just from like all of my research and stuff, but what she also captured, although it's not explicitly stated in the film because she's not really

“making statements in the film. She's more of an observer, but like, this was like kind of at the point where like black flag was bringing in this contingent of what they call, like, each bees or whatever this orange county and south bay kind of like”

aggressive test, as I think a Mike walk called it like Testo Bros or something like a really different punk contingent that was like really clashing with like what the L.A. one was was kind of like freaks and queers and like a, and it was the whole thing kind of imploded because of that, right? Like it created hardcore.

Yeah. And it split things and this is like kind of at the precipice of that and she captures that, you know, like that is like, you feel that is definitely what happened.

Was that like, the simply by the by virtue of their energy black flag, like introduced a different, well, they corded it. Yeah, apparently this is just what I read in my many like oral histories like what I read was that they had, they saw a way to kind of up their numbers of their, of their crowds by kind of kind of hoarding this new upright. It's something that germs kind of accidentally created because people were interested in going to germs shows because they were so psychotic and they were like, oh, this is like anything goes.

But the germs were still part of that old, you know, that original punk wave, which was like, be weird and sort of, you know, just be anarchist or whatever for it's sake, not like, let's go whale on people.

“You know, but I think black flag kind of like usher that in on purpose to bolster their numbers and it was happening anyways, but they corded it and it kind of bifurcated the scene.”

Well, that's fascinating. I, a lot of thoughts on black flags role in this, not having.

I mean, they get specifically actually is what the oral histories, I mean, they, they, they pinned it on Greg in. He's kind of painted as this does. Oh, really good. Yeah, in his villain. That's fine. Moving my wife was like, she looked him up on Wikipedia. Okay, she's seen it before, but she like, you know, doesn't know, great in from from she didn't read the recent New York Times profile about the new black flag. I think like, really for my money, the best iteration of the band to date. Is this one right now? This is the definitive lineup, but she was like, oh yeah, like, look, he has like these troubles, this custody dispute.

And I was like, oh, no, you don't understand. He's like the villain of punk rock. He's the cartoon villain. He's like, oh, it's funny to him to you. He's like this kind of well spoken guy and a short sleeve polo shirt leading this band and like to anybody else. He's like a figure with no defenders in the world of music or punk, but I would believe that he would have some kind of design, but to me. Like the black flag side of that is interesting because you say this and I believe this could be true. My question like on a lot of this movie and even if you're saying that they kind of created this audience of people hardcore bros.

What were those people doing prior to this? Like, where did to me? Like, it's very easy. And what I find fascinating about this movie, which is kind of like beautifully uninformative. Yeah, like it provides no context for that.

“Well, that's why anything that you're watching it provides no information. No. I don't need information because I know who all these bands are except for the one that everybody forgets.”

Well, I'll talk to you about that. And it's actually that man is the most interesting man in the world. Okay. I'll take your word for it until you prove you prove your point, but like, yeah, I don't need the context because I know what this is, but if you're like, oh, this is supposed to be a seminal documentary. We should watch it and learn about the LA punk scene. You don't really learn anything. You just learn that these rooms were crazy. Yeah. The bands were outrageous. Sometimes playing really poorly and the figures in them were maniacs.

Yeah. And I love how uninformative it is, but watching it. Like, if you're watching a comparable film, right? Like, imagine a movie that doesn't exist. It's just like, seven New York bands, 76 to 79. You would be like, well, the context for this is that New York downtown had been a happening art scene for a decade. We're dating back to Andy Warhol and this and that and you've gotten here after 10 years of this culture brewing. And this, I look at this and I'm like, I have no idea what this where this comes from in LA. I don't know what preceded it. I don't know what market this was servicing and I don't know what this disrupted.

I think you're right in terms of like, not placing it in the context of music. Culture like, yeah, she doesn't say like, oh, before this was David Bowie and Glitter and this pushed that out or this came from that. But what she does do and she does this and in all of her declines and it's clearly like a very interesting.

“I think preoccupation of hers is she does show the context of how these kids became punks with all those interviews of these like, I mean Eugene.”

The fans. Yeah. Yeah. Eugene is an HP, you know, like you go and you hear the story of like each of these kids who's like coming from these like terrible and broken homes and turning towards this like new. Totally. That's like very aggressive. So I feel like that's the place she puts the content. I mean, the context is there and that's, you know, the culture of that era.

We used to see in like movies like over the edge or kind of seminal or a river's edge. Never as that Jay. Yeah, run away and like out of the blue.

Like you see in these movies of this era, the wayward youth kind of lost in this period of the 70s, but in as much as like this trilogy, you can be seen as like there was this movement and then there was this movement as someone who didn't grow up in LA. Um, like in my mind, I don't even know what the scene to make a documentary. Like if there was a declines zero, I don't know what it would have been rotten is English disco. Okay. Yeah. It would have been what came what it directly preceded this was like glam. It was like, well, they called glitter in LA, but they would like the kids were like the runaways came out of that right.

It's like that's directly before this is the runaways, but they were like going, they were obsessed with Iggy Pop and David Bowie and Queen and they would go to Rodney's English disco and due drugs and where like platforms and this that sort of gave way to this.

“But that also kind of carries like that kind of bridges over this also.”

It's because some of that is like that's dying off into climbing to. Okay. So it completely changed when it gets to decline to and now it's glam metal which is a little bit different, but punk was something totally different, but for example, Darby crash was obsessed with David Bowie. That was like his be all end all, you know, and they loved Iggy Pop. That was kind of what it came up. Yeah, but those are international or, you know, in a rust belt based on it's like the runaways are what was happening in LA. I mean, it's just unknown to me because yeah, I was going this bit like again, I proud myself on knowing nothing about the doors.

The doors were the first punk band.

So, so you've said I will die on this hill. Okay. There's actually I felt so happy because I hadn't read it before because anyone ever when you said that been like totally. Well, okay, what interestingly not to my face, but when I was reading one of the God I don't remember, I read so many punk histories when I was doing the germs episode, but I want to say it was John Does, maybe the entire prologue is about that. Okay, it's someone making that exact case, it's probably predates me making that point, but it doesn't write it.

“Yeah, and I was like, yeah, but when were they active?”

Sixties. Okay, so, but that is a long time before this.

But here's what happened.

Did they not let Iggy Pop saw Jim Morrison and was like, I want to do that. Sure. That's, and he channeled that energy, and then you could, I think you can definitely make the point that like at least musically the first punk band in America was the student. Right. It's just fascinating to me to imagine like, you know, we know the chronology of, you know, Ramone 75 76 77. Yeah, and like, what is that, wherever these people are coming from in LA in 75 76, it has it just not gotten there yet, and this is something I couldn't stop thinking about during the movie,

because at least, as history has it in New York, these things kind of slowly crept out of other things. Yeah, and I just, you know, the runaways are of course a great example. I don't really know if it's easy to imagine any of these bands in particular, like thinking that they were. The rooms are obsessed with the runaways. And Darby were like runaways group sure. Okay. That's like they saw them and was like, we can make a band.

So the germs, I didn't listen to your episodes so that I wasn't just repeating things you'd already said back to you. But it's not like the kind of classic like a band who objectively is terrible, obviously great in their way, but like what they're obsessed with are things that are really slick. I had the runaways now. And David Bowie and like their idols are things that they can't really reach, and that is what they are reaching for in their own. They were trying to be like musically a duck as what you mean.

I mean even, but like, you know, it's not saying, oh, yeah, they're, they're, you know, role model was, and then you say something that like, you know, MC5 something. Right. So like, oh, that's within reach for them. It's like you're saying things that are quite well produced. And then you lost the germs in your like, really they were obsessed with David Bowie that seemed like. But they didn't want to make that kind of means, yeah, I don't think.

Yeah, and him being like, what? And he'll know like, yeah, we're like, okay.

So yeah, I mean, I feel like we're getting, we're getting a little far from it. But again, like it is just such a such a unique snapshot. And it is for my money, what makes it inimitable, so beautifully made. And even like when the restorations came out like a decade or so ago, just to see it not on a bootleg. The quality of her images and the photography that she created and the power of those shows combined with like they're really now what you would call like not staged.

But like the way the interviews are done in these movies are very deliberate. Yeah, they're not fly on the wall. Interviews no matter how much they seem like they are. And the quality of the filmmaking and the editing is so strange, it's so peculiar, so not informative.

Like you're left to draw your own conclusions because it's not like it's not saying like in 1973,

Ronny Bing and Iimer did this and that led to this, like it really is just kind of a sensation of like walking down the street hearing something coming from a venue opening the door and walking in. In your understanding, because like I've seen quite a few music documentaries, but like once that predate this isn't really my wheelhouse. That wasn't really the vibe, right? Like just it was just totally different kind of filmmaking and like even back in the 2000s, like the music documentary section at a store would be so small.

Yeah. There just wasn't that much of it. An imitable artist of that caliber would have these films made and give me sheltered. You know, they're the best ones ever because at the time there weren't that many around.

“And they tended to be made about towering artists who warranted cinematic exploration, right?”

And they had a purpose which was promotion, right? Even back then, it's like you're making give me shelter because you're promoting your own band and your own myth. Like this is something not that, this is something different. Right, and it's but this is yeah, it's so ethnographic. Yeah.

In her exploration that she then carries across for years that it can't help but be kind of its own thing. And not that it was like massively influential at the time because it just wasn't like, oh, it's everywhere. Everyone's seen that movie, but it does kind of very easy to look back on it and say that it colored. The kind of like, we should make a documentary about these people. We should go make a documentary about these people.

Well, not even just that.

“Like, I think the thing that I'm always struck by when I watch it is that and we're around the same age.”

So I think maybe you would see this as well. But like that style, her specific style is 90's MTV. Yeah, 100% owes to Penelope's Ferris, what we grew up watching. Those freeze frames, the sort of like fluidity of like vibes based band convo followed by a performance. Very 120 minutes where you would just make these people talk.

So much of MTV is, and I think at the time they were like, oh, she copied MTV, which is an insane thing because MTV came out six months after this documentary came out. Yeah, it is post, but you know, people like to say, and I asked her because the freeze frame thing I'm obsessed with. Yeah, I think it's so genius. I'll every time I see it because it's funny. And it's kind of puts a point on things. And I asked her about it. This will spoil it, but I just have to tell you about it because I'm so into it.

She was like, yeah, she was like, honestly, like, we had to like finish the song. Mm-hmm. And so it was really just to like, we needed more footage and we didn't have it. So we would linger on a shot in a freeze frame to make sure we go into the end of a song. And I was like, that's so cool.

Yeah. Yeah, yeah, because it would have been much easier to just keep rolling sound. Yeah. The style of these, yeah, I'm where we'll kind of accidentally talk about the others in a way, but like, even just like, that sometimes like the blips of cutting into a song are just so funny.

It's just so jarring. And it makes the whole thing seem so haphazard.

“But achieves, for me, the best thing of all, which the second film does in spades,”

also is like, it does just, it is kind of a movie that just feels like what the music is.

It's kind of incredible, kind of unpolished, kind of has things in it that feel like they're an accident.

Has things in it that are transcendently brilliant that you don't know if they're their own purpose or, or the artists, even, you know, it just, it just feels like being with these bands. Yeah. And it's just endlessly rewatchable.

And just, that could be a comfort movie.

I think it is for you if you watch it. You said, I know graphic, and I think that's a perfect word for it.

“Because I think it's important also to remember that these people were absolute freaks at that time.”

Like people were like, we don't know punks. They scare us. And so she's capturing them, like in, like kind of in that way. I mean, she's, she gives them humanity, right? But like capturing that for people who are not part of the scene to watch it at that time

was probably so, it's like, oh, this is how they talk to each other. This is how they live. Like they wouldn't screen it places because the, the sub culture was considered so alien. Freaks would show up. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, that's another thing that's obviously 30 years past. Anyone being able to wrap their head around.

But the idea that there is like an unknown sub culture who you're aware of vaguely. That may be transgressive. Yeah. You like maybe see if you accidentally like end up on the wrong side of town. Yeah.

And that somebody would take a camera there and make these subjects into movie stars. It kind of recalls that now this is similarly like an iconic film.

But street-wise was always kind of the same thing where it's like, you can make a poetic, beautiful documentary about junkies.

Right. If you're just in the right place at the right time, and you can take these real lives and turn them into heartbreaking nonfiction. Maybe it's a little staged.

“Maybe the audience should ask, like, if this is nonfiction, why is it shot on tri-pods?”

Right. But like the bottom line is it's putting subjects in front of audiences. Thus achieving like the true purpose of journalistic documentary, which this movie doesn't seem like it is. It seems like it's a mixed tape celebration of a wild scene. But it does in retrospect really for me function as like a great document of something where you could show this to kids today.

Kids who are like, I like punk. And you see the way black flag live. And you're like one of the most iconic scenes. And you're like, this not only do you not know that this happened, you couldn't understand. You couldn't wrap your mind around living in a closet at the church where you record.

Yeah, like that's just not a part of anybody's understanding of the era.

And we're at not for somebody bringing a camera into their home. Yeah, you could see photos of which there are thousands of the squalor that these people lived in. But to actually have them explain like costs 16 dollars a month. Yeah. And this is how we do it.

And we kind of like made this little loft in here. It's like the panties someone left behind. It is so fascinating. And one of the not faults I have with the movie, but like I feel like on rewatch. The black flag narrative going into their home.

Greg again, like speaking kind of eloquently. Yeah. I mean, say what you will about him. But he's obviously a smart guy. Yeah.

And then the Darby crashed off where he's like making breakfast and kind of cutting between him and the manager. Which is the only time the movie like makes a story. Right out of something that like is not happening in front of you is that like the subsequent chapters of the movie with the other artists. Don't actually give as much like actual insight into who they are as those two do when the movie starts with them. Yeah, literally.

Like they're in the beginning of the movie. I think the X scene is also. I mean, the X is funny just because they're so normal in like in their own way compared to what you've seen already. But like by the end of the movie, the idea that like you could learn something by hanging out with Alice bag and like they'll be more insight into the way. She lived like the movie kind of abandoned that either because the material wasn't there.

It just didn't happen while they were filming because those two parts of the movie. Like the Darby crashed off making the eggs is like so good. She did it again. I know. Indecline two three.

Oh, too. I mean in three also there's like a egg making scene. So it's like she knows that there's like something very real and just like yeah.

“What does this punk do when he wakes up after the show?”

Which is something no one would have ever thought about is like he stumbles home. He's fucked up. It's got to eat breakfast the next morning. Like it might be 9 a.m. when he gets home or it might be 4 p.m. when he wakes up. The fun fact about that from behind the scenes is that's not even his house.

Sure. Same as the Aussie thing. Yeah, that is like Tony the hustler's house who is like a male prostitute. That haven't Darby lived with. It's weirdly nice looking.

It looks nice because he made a lot of money. Tony the hustler and that. Torrential is Tony the hustlers that Darby gifted him for like Christmas or something. And Tony the hustler actually makes sort of an accusation and I don't want to call it accusation. But a statement in one of the oral histories that he felt that he put Michelle,

who is the woman with him who's like one of his like inner circle. Darby had this inner circle of women. He was like drug lock center. Yeah, did all his bidding and loved him and whatever paid for everything that he was kind of trying to not seem gay. Yeah.

By having this woman in the house while he makes breakfast.

That's simply what Tony the hustler said.

“But like, but it's still an amazing scene.”

He doesn't matter if you know. No. If it's real or not. And it's easy to imagine like at a time where media is so small. Yeah.

To just imagine like, well, they're making a movie about me. So if I have this girl here, that will be the only insight people have into my life. Yeah. Like there will be no subsequent questions.

If the movie that they make about me features me, making breakfast with some chick. Yeah. It's very fascinating. But I do love the insight into those lifestyles.

It's I think it's a movie doesn't continue to do that. And maybe it's because and you would know this better since you're a film maker. It might be because they tried it with other people. I don't know because Darby crash, I think arguably is the centerpiece of this movie. Right, the germs, but mostly Darby. He's the star.

And then the black flag stuff is secondarily the most interesting. And it's possible they tried to do it with the other bands. And it just wasn't compelling. I don't know, you know. Do you think when you watch something and you make objectively a true statement?

Yeah. It's like the best parts of this movie are the two best well-known bands. Like, do we say that because they are the best well-known? The best well-known because this movie helped their reputation. Or do they pop it in the movie?

Because they had like- No, I think you're- I think- Who else is going to pop if not Darby crash in the movie? That's what I was saying.

“I think the germs were just like in arguably important.”

You know, like you could make the case that there would be no hardcore without them. I mean, they were just so important. And you can see how compelling Darby is. I mean, even though everything I've read, the whole thing about Darby crash is that you could have started to Colton thousands of people would have joined people.

We're like captivated by this person.

I mean, there's just- as always when you hear that about somebody.

I think you look at the material like they were captivated by this person. But that's- you hear it from like every person in these oral histories. We're like, he had something magnetic about him. There's a great story. I am retraining the germs up so little, but sorry, but I think it's so interesting.

There's a great story in it about he and Pat. And I want to say it was the brother of Kira Rosler. Went into the Scientology Center when they were in high school. And they took the tests. And they like Pat got a zero.

And they were like, you have a personality disorder. You need to come. We need to help you. Kira Rosler's brother got like a medium score. And they were like, we can help you or whatever.

And Darby got a perfect score. And they asked him to come like, teach there. They were like, you were obsessed with you. Pinterest. Because that is the movie.

The Shane West did that scene. Oh, my God. Scientology. Honey, we can't even get into that movie. I was literally tried to put it on while I was doing my germs.

I was like, absolutely. You didn't want to. You didn't make it through. I got like 20 minutes in and I was like, these wigs.

Yeah, I've never seen that.

The Hague. I would like to read this. Yeah. Worst than the dirt for you. I hard to say.

Yeah. These are, you can't make a fictional movie. You know, it'll be something really interesting about Suburbia. Which I know you love or you just want to talk about. I love Suburbia.

And I feel like Suburbia is basically she remade this movie as a scripted film. Not literally, but like, she made a fiction film. Because they told the world of squatters and puns. Yes. Because they literally basically told her if you want people to watch your movie.

It has to be a fictional film. Yeah. If you want to watch movie about puns. And she was like, okay. And it is, I mean, a film I saw way later than this.

Yeah. Not way later. For five years later. And I was like, wait, this movie's a masterpiece. Like it's just so lived in.

And it feels, as it feels more like a documentary at times than this does. It feels more like MTV. Yeah. And that feels more like what we now think of as a documentary. And it clearly has a lot of non-actors in it. Well, I was just saying that because she said this made me bring it up.

Because she was like, it's easier to teach punks to act than it is to teach actors. Yeah. Of course. Historically, probably the most embarrassing. When people to do is try to act.

With very limited exceptions.

Yeah. A great film and much like this was always kind of in and out of availability and distribution.

So like part of her reputation suffering over the years. Or just not suffering. But like not soaring is that her best work was kind of hard to see. You would see her main stream work. But the decline films kind of as far as I thought this was true.

I think I still think this is true. Didn't come out on DVD until 2016 or 2015.

“That's right. I think that's the year that the decline was put into the national library of Congress.”

And then there was like a 3 DVD box set. Yeah. But as far as I recall, had only existed as bootlegs and bootlegs of the tapes. Right. And suburbia was always available as a really cheap, bad-looking DVD and then that went away.

And then wasn't on Blu-ray for a very long time. And I feel like this always, it makes things into cult objects. It prevents them from being canonized, no matter how crucial they are. But to me, they're perfect. I mean, they are just like two sides of the same coin.

And it's almost unbelievable that she made them essentially back to back. Yeah. They're a great part and parcel to watch together.

There's like scripted street-wise, which is American Heart. No. I don't know about that.

The same filmmakers basically made like a movie about the same.

It's the same story. And it's Jeff Bridges and Edward Furlong, it's like wayward father-in-son in the Northwest, dealing with addiction and homelessness. Which is kind of an interesting micro trend. Which one's better?

Well, street-wise is one of the greatest films ever made, much like this. But it's an interesting micro trend of like, oh, you stumbled upon in that and street-wise, photographers in her case, like a music lover. You stumbled upon something now, make it into a real movie. Right.

And in both cases, the real movie becomes less well-known and less beloved. Right. Then the authentic thing. But I mean, the germ stuff is just great. And the germ stuff in the punk museum in Las Vegas is also, they're very well represented there.

“It's hard to overstate how important they were.”

Yeah. It's an interesting case of like, people got mad at me when I said this on the drums episode. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. The music is good.

Yeah. Okay. There are great songs in there. But it is not an album that is like, okay. Here's a top 10 albums of all time.

You know? Yeah. They were very young. They were very rudimentary. They could not play their instruments.

Well, you know, like, Pat Smith or maybe accepted. And Lorna was okay. But like, well, watching the scenes in this movie, like, it almost plays as a joke. How many people are like, he doesn't sing to the microphone and they can't play. Right.

Then it cuts to them. And it is, again, I say this as a fan. It is like worse than anything. Yeah. And you really get the idea.

The movie almost seems like this subject is dead by the time the movie comes out. Obviously, that's only known in retrospect, but it is like, considering that the movie starts

“with X, who are very slick and very talented, even when we see them.”

Right? It's what's the first song in the movie. No, it's not the same. Yeah. It's actually not the same.

What's really interesting is they were upset because the crowd that's shown is not their crowd. Sure. A classic trick. And they were like, our crowd is not like that. Our crowd is not aggro like that.

Like, we didn't want that. And it makes sense that it makes the better film. No, it almost does. Every other band, no favors to start with X. There are their heads above these other bands.

Yeah, musically. Yeah. musically there's no reason X are in this movie. No. But they were in the same scene.

They were all friends. Yeah. That's clear. And obviously the New York punk and British punk. Not black, like, really.

There's always legs, but in, you know, it's like, oh, well, they're in the same scene.

They don't really sound alike. Yeah. Remones and blonde. You don't sound alike. Yeah.

It's et cetera. Yeah. Yeah. They don't sound alike, but it's very easy to imagine them all playing together. X.

To me, like, again, a band I have probably had CDs of for 30 years. Like, what have X influenced? Like, who did in the last 20 years? Probably. Right.

Is that it? Is that like, what happens is that that becomes like the punk ability, like social distortion. Like, when I listen to X, I can really hear like alternative music. Yeah. I can hear the beginnings of real, what is called 90s.

I just can't. It's baked in it. Even because it's these stuff. It's definitely that. You know, like, lately, I just don't know if I've heard anything in 20 years.

And I'm like, I hear a lot of X in this. Well, maybe that should change. It could.

There's always those artists and filmmakers as well that, like, just disappear from favor.

And you know, nobody is like, watching them anymore. Yeah. And then you see a retrospective and you're like, how come no one like X was trying into like two years ago? Are they still?

I think they just. Okay. So they're like, one of these, the rare case maybe you have artists like this in your list of, like, again, I probably bought Los Angeles when I was 13 years old.

“And at the time, I think they were inactive.”

Right. Or like, maybe. Yeah. In a hiatus that, you know, was reaching into its 15th year. And then they started touring again.

And it's one of those artists that I was like, oh, I have no interest in going to see them. Oh, no, they're so good. Those albums will never not be fun for me. And yet, like, old X, I just was, I just was never like, I got to go to that. I don't know why.

Interesting. I love their inclusion in the film because I do think they're so captivating. Well, they're, they're, they're really zoom. Just watching Billy Zooms weird smart face the whole time. And you're like, I have no idea what this man is thinking.

Also, unlike every other band in the thing, like, the way he plays guitar and he's showy and like, that's like kind of rooted back in old rock and roll. And you're like, oh, that's interesting. Totally totally. And that's in them.

And like, there's no denying like compared to the squaller of black flag. But they're also in squall. They're, they're, they're doing stick and poke tattoos. And they're talking about how they, like, lived in a guy who died of cancer's home and drank his beer and his, like, liquor.

But that, like, funny quality that you were kind of correcting me on when I was saying despite repomand. Like, I don't think of Amelia Westive as it's being very punk. Like, that funny quality that is all over this movie. Of, like, man, these guys are, like, the real fucking crazy punks.

Those are the, that's what we were talking about.

“That's kind of like the X uniform of, like, John Doe is, like, wearing.”

But John, but X's crowd wasn't like that. X's crowd was, like, definitely punk and artsy. They're crowd. But I'm seeing, like, the sort of visual makeup of the band. And John Doe is, like, a very good-looking guy.

Like, that's the other thing that always helps people reach these levels of, like,

older, better than everyone else is, like, Darby Crash is, you know, by all intents and purposes, like, a fairly revolting, seeming person to be around. Yeah. Despite cult charisma.

And then there's always the person that's, like, you know, who's just, like, classically handsome. This really successful talent at person. Yeah. Why do you think they're so successful?

It's like, probably because he's good-looking and people, like, being around him and he seems smart and funny. Yeah. Well, that does go along well. But they bring, like, a very grounded quality,

despite seeming, like, just awesome. Like, he's good-looking and cool. She's, like, good-looking and cool. Yeah. They have names, like, Billy Zoom and Bone Break and, like,

DJ, DJ Bone Break. Just everything about them seems cool. And then the music is so, like, gentle, compared to Black Flag. Right. But not compared to 1979.

Right. I think if you went, again, I can't know, I wasn't around, but I think if you went to an ex-show in 1979, that was trans music. You know?

It's just hard to see that now where it's, like, that's dad music.

“That's what I struggled with, is, like, it's hard to see that now,”

because they've been in my life for so long. And when you get to them halfway through the movie, after Black Flag, after the Germans, I really was, like, this is, you know, some banches, some, everybody films, like,

some things just stick out, like, they're part of it, but they're not, like, 70s filmmakers whose movies aren't new Hollywood movies. So they're, like, part of an era, but they're not artistically linked.

Right. They're just the same, because they were there at the same time. And there's all that overlap.

And ex, you know, like, there's always fun

to have these kind of, like, well, they're part of it, but, like, they don't sound, like, all of their peers, and then they, like, kind of, continued on. I have to say, like, one of the great tragedies

of my life is this, which is that I can never understand what it is to see the decline in 1981. Right. I'll never know what that is. And none of us will, right?

Unless you were around. Because these bands were nobody. So now we talk about, I mean, you, a black flag shirt is a dime a dozen. Everyone knows who the germs are.

Exus Famous. Even the circle jerks, you know, like we said before. I've been touring this year. Yeah. The circle jerks are out there.

The horse is never stop working. Yeah. That is the hardest working man in Chebez. And punk rock show business. But at the time, these were all nobody's.

And there's just, I can never experience that.

I can really go into it, having these sort of preconceptions. But you said this about people being good looking or likable. One of the, I wanted to ask you about your favorite characters in general in the film.

One of my favorites is Chuck DeKowski. I feel like he jumps off the screen. He's so charismatic. He's so funny. I thought it was the guy in SLC punk.

Who was clearly styled. I realized when I just got it confused on my phone. I'm, I'm just really struck by how, like, he's so charming. Yeah. And he's so, like, funny and waltz.

But he could have been an actor. Yeah. Yeah. That's always the funny thing is, like, when you are involved, like, even peripherally, as non-musicians and, like,

going to, like, punk houses or, like, seeing shows. There's always those guys that are just, like, fucking hilarious. Yeah. Just, like, a total goofball with, like, a big happy face. And there's always the guy who's, like,

I just has the worst energy and no one wants to be around. And they're always kind of in the same room together. Yeah. It's kind of the same band. Yeah.

And, like, there is a kind of self-styled mythologizing that these people are clearly doing when a camera is put in front of them. Even at a time where, like, media images, we're not thought of as being, like, lasting forever. They weren't, like, this is going to be my legacy.

But they're turning on a kind of performance. And they're being, as everybody is when a camera is on them, like, an extra version of themselves. Whether that's, like, a gross version or a charming version. Yeah.

Or, you know, like, an astute version. They all know that, like, I can't just mumble through this. Right.

“I would even go one step further with this film, which I think is an interesting”

layer to think about if you're watching it, is that they were all pretty mistrustful of Penelope. Because she was the label boss's girlfriend. She was kind of the man, you know? Like, this wasn't like, they're, like, punk friend.

So, so you can kind of feel when you're watching it. They have this, like, do not derision exactly. But they're, they're, like, out of distance. And they're kind of trying to play her. Yeah.

Right. With with these acts that they're putting on. Well, this is one of the pretty transparent, but you can tell. Except for Darby, who I think is just, like, saying what he's saying. Of course.

Of course. But, like, this is the great, like, contradiction of why the, there's such a shallow pool of, honest film and, like, art about these kinds of musicians.

Couldn't get it together to raise money to make a film about themselves. Yeah. So, it's very rare that it would be, like, something is made by one of our own. Yeah. And I do find that exception when it comes up, like, Alex Cox making,

Sid Nancy, like, that guy is clearly legit. Like, he had made, like, the guy next to him, man. So, it was, too. I still think she was, I'm running, she was seen that way.

Now, she was, obviously, as legit as it comes, but you always, like,

there is no world where you're associate in the band picks up the camera. Right. Right. Right. So there always is this circumspect distance,

“which I think really is very fun into climbing to.”

Oh, my God. And into climbing three has kind of collapsed to the point that, like, the subjects don't care. Yeah. Certainly, and, like, the drop off from the celebrities into.

But it is very understandable that, to be, like, every scene is insular. And obviously, this community would have been very insular and paranoid of outsiders. Yeah.

Even if it is somebody who is cool. Two of my new shudder grade, too, because I think, probably said it was like, I was just like, they were like, you weren't here from the beginning. Yeah.

And she's like, I came one year later. Just like the worst kind of, like, clubhouse mentality. Yeah. There's, of course, what you like about these things, if you're part of it.

Right. So being a complete, like, exclusionary jerk. But which also, like, eventually undoes any scene. Right. Yeah.

You know what I mean?

“Do you want to make a case for this terrible band in the middle of the band?”

Yes. Okay. Not for the band. It's pretty, obviously visually noticeable, but if you're not only paying attention, you might miss it.

So that is the band of the Slashwriter, the French Slashwriter, kickboy face, who is real name was Claude Bessie, incredible person. Let me just give you a little bit. Yeah.

Yeah. This is all. You have the floor, don't you? Can you just give you the highlights of this band? No one would just watch this movie blind and have their takeaway.

Be like, I want to know. No. No. But I just need to know, because I've seen it so many times. I've probably gone down a rabbit hole.

I can tell you about all of these people. But I was just like, all right. Yeah. What's up with this French guy? Born in Normandy.

Bessie was kicked out of the sarbarm after showing up drunk at night in the morning, brandishing a bottle of brandy and threatening a teacher. He then moved to the US in 1966 and to LA in 1967. He later left for Afghanistan to deal hashiche. Then went to detox from methadrine in a French asylum.

And the 70s he came back to LA, worked out as a bus boy and a waiter and then founded

Ellie's first reggae fanzine, Angelina O'Dread, then he helped launch slash.

Okay. I'm sorry. This guy's fucking cool. And he passed away now. What did he do after this movie?

The day Ronald Reagan was elected president, which was November 4th, 1980. He left America because he was like fuck this. And then he went with a film, you know, when Stanley, who was also in the film with the short black guy, that was his partner. They went, "I want to say Barcelona or something."

He and he's passed away many years, like 20 years. But he did not continue making music. No, he actually, okay, no. I don't know. Oh, no, he did.

But he was the resident Vijay at the Haseanda in 1982. Then he did PR for rough trade. No, he's lived his whole life being the fucking coolest guy in the world. I mean, that would be-- I mean, the fan of French people.

Okay, they don't record. But this guy-- That would be an intro-- I mean, that is an interesting life story. This part of the movie grinds to a halt as a film. Absolutely.

That band is not good. It's very, it's very much giving the part of the L.A.

like an alternative scene that probably gave way to like a million other bad bands like that.

That you would see an L.A. all the way up to like the 80s and 90s. What are bands like that in your opinion? I could not answer this question if someone had a gun to my head. I just think that they have these kind of roots in like talk, speaking, singing. Again, they are a little rockabilly in that same x-way,

because I've just not successfully. You know, it's this kind of through line of Americanaism. I guess through the lens of a French guy. He's one of like wingal pickers or like creepers or whatever. It's just like a thing that we don't need.

“Where do you think that rockabilly influence comes from in X or any of the other?”

Because that is like, that's real West Coast shit. Like there is none of that in any New York bands of this era. You know what? This is like me fully like doing a Hail Mary idea. But I can't remember what episode it was because obviously I have brand damage from doing this monthly search.

But in the '50s, '40s are '50s. A lot of dust bowl people moved to Southern California because it was advertised as having like similar farming climate or something. And they brought with them country music. And I think that streak of sort of like,

and plus then you get the bakers field sound country music, you know, I feel like it kind of comes from that. If I had to guess, it's a full gas on my part. Please well actually meet a desk that you want.

like folk was hanging over punk. Right. We were away on the West Coast. It was more a cowboy country. Yeah.

Because I mean, the cramps. I mean, it's psycho-billy. It was a whole streak of it. You know, cramps are great. We used to have a festival.

I don't know how long it lasted. But I went when I was like 12, 13 years old called Hoot Nanny in Irvine. And it was all rockabilly and psycho-billy bands. And I saw X and the cramps there. And it's like you would go and see women with like,

seems tattooed up their legs. You know what I'm talking about? You know the sub culture, you know. Which is still pretty alive and kicking in.

One of the things that we'll never decline to zero.

Yeah. That sub culture will never go away. And it will never get bigger than it is. It's a strong part of the 90s that people like people. I think in my estimation,

“love to remember the 90s in one specific way.”

And it is everything was Kurt Cobain. Yeah. And cool alternate. But it's like no honey. Everything was also head chops.

And everything was also rockabilly. And everything was also swingers. Sure. Like that bowling shirt vibe. Yeah.

There was all this other shit going on the 90s. No one wants to think about it or remember. Well, unfortunately, as it is coaster, we have to put like the blame for that swingers culture on on the west coast. Very, very firmly.

Listen, we have a lot. We offer to a lot. We took a lot of swings and some of them missed. Yeah. That's all I'm going to say.

Yeah. But that's to me, like, and I sort of have like a quota. But I want to tee it up so that you, I don't blind side you with it. Yeah.

Because I'm so interested in where,

as a thought exercise that we can end on in, you know, whenever. We're not ending. But we have more documentary shots. If she had not been like the, the follow up to this is,

LA music scene in like a glam sleazy era. Yeah. If she had been like, I'm going to follow punk music as a sub culture. What would that have looked like? Yeah.

Because to me, like, this movie ends at what is, you know, for my money, like, about to be the best time in some ways. What was about to happen? I mean, you're about to have like,

Well, like, James addiction? No. Like, within five years, you have like the formations of like,

Berkeley, Gilman Street, music. And you have like, Reagan youth, and you have like, do you see hardcore? You have like,

some of the most, like, like, you have minor threat and operation Ivy coming down the pipeline. Yeah. When the movie is not a pop.

Like, this is what's fascinating. She's a Los Angeles. Yeah. So that didn't happen in Los Angeles. But like, and I know,

“and that's, that's what's interesting to me.”

But like, correct me if I'm wrong. And I was trying, I started like, looking up like, where is this band from? Where is this band from?

But like, you know, by the mid 80s, there are so many like California punk bands. Like, no effects are coming. Yeah.

The vandals, which I think we've already talked about. I mean, the minute men. Yeah. I would have liked to see.

There's so much more of this coming. And instead, she like pivots to making like, you know, kiss and Ozzy Osborn in a documentary.

Because I think, I don't want to speak for her. But from what I gathered by speaking to her is like, she made this, right? And then she went off making some other films.

And the next thing that seemed different. Yeah. Was glam. She probably didn't want to make something about the continuation of something.

Although, what I would have loved to see, which I guess it's sort of side by side with glam, would have been Jane's addiction, Red Hot Chili Peppers.

Because that was also happening around that same time. You know. But I don't know how good of a film.

“I just sort of like that footage, I guess.”

You know? Well, Red Hot Chili Peppers is our impression. If you want to watch. And obviously, Flee is her friend.

Yeah. He was a fear. I had no doubt that he was in this movie. But I'm just placing suburbia on top of this. Flee would have been young.

This is only three years before suburbia. Yeah. But I think he was in height. He was a young. He was like 15 years ago.

He joined fear. No, no. But I think he's like, I think he is a teenager. He joined fear as a teenager.

Yeah. But I think he's like, How he gets into suburbios through being in fear. Because leaving, I think, introduce. I do love through him and Pat Smith or the, like,

supporting player in, like, degenerate punk bands turned, like, stadium legacy artists. Like, it's a very specific thing that happened. To, like, three people.

Yeah. But, like, Also, honestly, Josh Fries, the job of the vandals is now, like, The go-to journey.

Sure. He was even just in fighters and famous. It's like a very short list.

But, it kind of seems like it always happened to, like,

Good, good people. Like, it doesn't satisfy. It's apparently, like, an incredible, again. I don't know. When I talk about how people play their instruments,

it's cosplay. But I, I, from everything even reading from early germs, he was always, like, an incredible guitar, like, like, like, Yes, guitar lines, like, just by listening.

Yeah. It's a funny thing that happened. Like, to people that all kind of orbited her. Yeah. At least in those two guys.

If it was you, you would have made a film about, like, I saw Chrissy, and what was happening at Gilman Street. I mean,

I would love that movie to explain. Now, wouldn't it be cool? Like, that's another thing that was just so...

are, like, burning. Well, there's so much of this.

“Not to keep plugging in the punk museum.”

But, like, there's so much of that there.

And it is, like, just absolutely incredible.

Yeah. And again, you, you mourn for the fact that nobody walked in with a camera, with a 16 millimeter camera. Well, they were so DIY, these punks, right? And it's like, you could make a scene by yourself,

but you, to make a film, you know, to get funding. You know, that's, again, that's where the... That funding combined with the desire to look at these bands, cancels out. All the time, this still happens.

This is why I like... But does it, this is still... This is a fucking... This is a masterful-- Oh, totally different.

A Western Civilization one is a masterpiece. People are so happy. But no one wants to pay for it. Yeah. Although, I do know the bands,

some of them, and also the people that were in the scene don't like that film. And they, you know, classically in the film. This one?

Like, there was... This is unsubstantiated, but in one of the, um... Lexicon double, maybe Casey Cola, who was the woman that nearly died with the RB but survived.

Um, she said that he had seen a screening of it before it came out and came home despondent. Right. Well, that's how it comes off. I had no disrespect to the, uh,

the deceased or the feelings of the living subjects. But like, that's the most boring response in the world. And I hate when subjects do that. Yeah. Well, I mean, he was like...

He was obviously incredibly mentally ill and depressed. And he was like 19 years old. What even if you're here? Even if you're well-adjusted, there's nothing I struggle with more than,

like, a subject's lack of desire to be like, there's only one response that I'm okay with. It's cool that I'm in this. I just don't think anyone can, to this day can understand what being perceived as like,

until you are perceived. And it's horrible. Yeah. And, you know what? Just to say no.

Because I don't think... I get it. It's very few people can handle that. Yeah. You were captured one specific way.

And then you're like, no, but I'm like, I'm like a thousand things. And you're like, no, not in this movie. You're that one thing. Yeah.

But then you're forever that one thing. True. But the alternative is like, we're talking about these bands because they're in this movie. The alternative is...

Penelope didn't film me.

“I think we would have talked about Black Flag and Germs,”

because they tried to even, like, cross people's death. These iconic images of them. The alternative is like, you were there too,

but nobody filmed you. Right. Like, the bands that were at Woodstock, but didn't sign the release to be in the documentary. And they're for, like, they have a lower profile.

I think they were for a posterity. I'm glad it happens. But I'm just saying on an individual case, based on that understanding, that people might have their, like,

like, like, use shattered. Oh, totally totally. I just bores me as a filmmaker. Yeah. To imagine, because she's...

To negotiating that with people. It's like, this will be good for you. Not today, not tomorrow. In 30 years, you'll be in the Library of Congress. So, like, significant films.

Because you let me do that. Do you think bands plan will be in the Library of Congress? I think so. (laughs) Do you think my, it's my Dave Matthews Band-up.

I said it'll make the cut. I think they would put them all in. Thank you. So I'm kind of a thumb drive that you just put it in there somewhere. So, one thing she does in this film was she does,

there's two things that she does in this film, but she does in all three that I really like.

One is she always includes a counter figure, right?

To show that this is a subculture and how it's thought of. And the first one, it's that the old man and his wife who are honestly probably our age. Yeah. When the owner of Club 88 and his wife talking about these.

Yeah, these people who, like, unfortunately, their business became the locus of this scene. Right. And they're like, look, the kids shop every day. I hate this, but what am I going to do?

Yeah. And then the second thing, which, again, I said it already, but I want to underline it because by the time we get to three, which I think is the most underrated. And frankly, in some ways, most important.

One of these is she is super interested in what mechanism causes these teenagers to turn towards this kind of subculture. And she has said before she was trying to understand her own teenage self, you know? But like, we talked about Eugene who, I think I said this to you over text,

but Eugene is now a musician that goes by huge from the coast and lives in Berlin and makes island folk music. You made to Berlin. He lives in Berlin. Yeah.

Imagine if you found that guy to put in your film. 14 years old.

“The only thing is, like, Eugene looms large for me.”

And you know, my friends get beat up by my friends. Because he was one of the HPs. He was one of those surf puns. But like, he looms large for me.

He's, he's in like the first three minutes of the movie.

Yeah. And with that light bulb. But then I realized finishing the movie on rewatch. You know, there's like four of those people in the movie. He doesn't loom large because he's the most charismatic

of the 20 people she interviews. He's like one of three non musician. He is very charismatic. But it is funny how few of those subjects are in the movie in my mind. Until you get to three.

Right. Then it's all of them. Yeah. But in this, I was like, yeah, he's in there because he's got the good lines. And his voice is very, very recognizable.

But actually, there's just not a lot of those. But of course, that's very compelling is like, who are the people in these audiences. Yeah. What draws them to show up and like get into a fight.

All this thing to black flag.

Yeah.

“Can we just talk about just two seconds about the most insane line to me”

of all of the decline of Western civilization one.

Okay. It is when they're discussing finding the dead body, Michelle and Darby. Sure. After the party. And Penelope Spheres goes,

"Didn't you feel bad that the guy was dead?" And Michelle's answer is, not at all because I hate painters. Yeah. Yeah, that's pretty good. I hate painters?

Yeah. Why? House painters? Why? Well, you know, what the punk ethos of like what it is.

And this is Marlon Brando. Like, what do you were building against? Like, what do you got? Right, what do you get? Painters.

And although it is kind of like really unfortunate because right before that, Darby definitely uses like an ethnic slur about the guy. Yeah. And then it's kind of really hard to ride for Darby. And any of those situations because you're like, man,

you're a fucking idiot.

Declined three is about gutter punks in LA in the late 90s.

It came out in 1998. The homeless punk youth. It's kind of a little bit less about music, although there are bands in it. That's the fascinating pivot in her. Union franchise.

Because she went towards what she's really interested in, which is disenfranchised youth. Yeah. And that's what that is about. And it makes like the subtext text.

It's incredibly dark. It's really moving. I ride for this. It is more like street wise, which is why I feel like that kernel. It's not fun to watch.

Oh, it's absolutely amazing. Like you can't revisit it. She does this. She does some incredible reveals about these kids. It's heartbreaking.

One of them dies during the making of the film. One stabs the other one afterwards and goes to jail. It's a whole thing. So it's in 1998. So like, that's at the time that I would have started going to like,

how shows in Philadelphia and like been around. Crust punks and like, you know, folk punks and like. So it's suddenly like that movie catches up to a world that I lived in. They lived in, yeah. And like working on St. Marks in the 2000s.

It kills like, there's some trustees on totally. I mean, it's like the early ones are gone.

I like, I always, they used to be on Melrose when I was a teenager.

And I like, now I want to go to Mars. I don't see them all. They go to Portland where they go.

“I think they would, I made the same observation.”

I think they just hopped a train. I went to Portland because L.A. is very hospitable to homeless yourself. Sure. But that, you know, that culture on St. Marks was like front and center for me. For the whole time I worked there.

And it's very interesting that like, have gone like part one is this fantasy of a world that I would have killed. I would have been a present at. Part two is like a cartoon. Yes. And then part three is like, oh, I know these people.

Yeah. I've like, you know, been in the basement of like shows of these people. Like some of the worst smelling environments of my life. Watching like a punk band with like an acoustic guitar player totally. And, you know, it's funny.

Like I've seen this many times to countless times. And I think I've seen three like maybe twice. It doesn't really lend. It's up to rewatches. But it just wasn't, it just wasn't out there.

And like I'm talking about these bootlegs of one and two that were in record stores or video stores. Like three went straight from like it exists to it's not available. Well, one and two have incredibly famous people. And three doesn't.

You know, some also make sense. Like you have Aussie. It's about two. Two at the most famous one. I mean, you have the dudes from Aerosmith.

You have Aussie of Lemmy. You have like Paul Stanley. Paul Stanley. You have a feeling standing in two in the same. Yeah.

I mean, that's what I'm talking about. I mean, that's what I'm talking about. Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Yeah, that's what I'm talking about.

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Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Yeah, that's what I'm talking about. Yeah, that I don't need to rewatch, but that is obviously great. Two like tangents on that is like heavy metal parking lot.

Yeah, which predates. I think that's movie. Two. Yeah, I think it's 85 or 80. Yeah, so this is 88.

Yeah, heavy metal walk. I don't spoil it for me because this is. It has a name as we sold ourselves, so I did ask her about it. Okay, I will watch you for that. I have a little, you know, and she actually, she was like, she was like, all send you a better version.

Yeah, send that to me. Yeah. Yeah, so there's to tee that up, like, sort of unofficial decline for. Yeah, 2001. She was inspired to make some, I think fairly quotidian documentary about Osfest.

In my opinion, it turned out to be much better. It's much closer to her work. And it circulates as a bootleg, but for years, it just didn't.

And then, I don't know, 10 years ago, it finally was like decline for, quote unquote.

It really would have been decline for because it's, it's basically a new metal.

“Yeah, but it just tones, I think, are in it, right?”

Yeah, yeah. Yeah, it just is Osfest, whatever year she was filming. Yeah, I think maybe Osfest, 2000. Yeah, 99. And, you know, it's pretty open-hearted, but it's not like in LA.

It's clearly like a tour movie. Yeah. But it's unofficial. I've been trying to get you to watch it. I'm going to watch it.

And I said the long thing I wanted her to actually just explain. It's like, what's the deal with that movie? Yeah. I had to watch all the declines over again, and dudes in Siberia, and Wayne's world. So I was just busy this week.

But shining a light on anything like that can potentially be like the reason that something finally gets released. Yeah. Yeah. If we talk about it, and perhaps you and I can start thinking.

I just can't think people like, even when I was trying to find it a couple of months ago. When Osie died, just like there's so much reddit of it. It's like, here it is. It's like a link from two months ago, but then it doesn't work anymore. I think my great hope is just that like people.

I think enough real heads. Put respect on Penelope's here. This is a name and know like what a fucking boss in God she is. You know, and like how much. How much of visual culture that we take for granted now was crafted in her hands.

I mean, Wayne's world alone.

“I mean, you don't even, you don't even, you don't even tell you.”

And you at home should not need me to tell you. That is the comedic sensibility of 90s comedies totally forged in the fires of her hands. You know, she is, if you watch, if you watch the iconic Bohemian Rap City head banging scene. Yeah. That's that's in dudes.

Okay. I haven't seen dudes. Okay, dudes is amazing. So it's flea, John Cryer, and I'm so sorry to the other actors. They're just can't remember.

And they're driving from New Jersey to LA or something. And they start singing Havana Nagila. And then they start head banging. Interesting. And that is kind of what it's so cool when you see it because it really worked there.

And then, you know, she did it. And Wayne's world office. It's the most iconic scene of the entire film. Yeah. Did you ever see the meme that was like a picture of Toby McGuire in Spider-Man with like a hoodie,

And the meme was like, when you go to the hard course show and this guy's the basis. You know, shit's about to be crazy. Like, I thought of that so many times during this movie where it's like the one guy in the band who just like,

basically has like a really nice haircut in a polo shirt on.

And then just like, it's all, like, really circle jerks look pretty clean. Yeah. You know, because they were, they were sort of orange county punks from cut from that call. Oh, obviously they, they weren't, you know.

“I just remember when like, I met some guy at the playground years ago.”

And he was like a clean cut guy and it turned out he was like really into punk and metal. And my wife was like, oh, it's so funny. Like I wouldn't think he would be into this music. And I showed her that Toby McGuire meme. And she was like, I don't get this.

And I was just like, fuck, this is one of those things. I'm going to have to spend six minutes explaining this two sentence meme. Because to me, it's so obvious you see that guy, like the guy at the punk show, which is like, oh, that guy's going to be fucking crazy. Yeah.

And that is kind of the black flag, like little clean cut. Kind of maybe in good shape, maybe like runs a lot. That's the Amelia us to have a streak. That's what we talked about. Like that is a very, and I actually, I really can't wait to do a black flag episode.

Because I want a dig deeper into like the bifurcation of punk and hardcore. That was sort of spearheaded by black flags. I think it's really interesting. I suppose that that will be harder than doing a kiss episode. Oh, I mean, the amount of people that have been in this band.

Should we pin now that you have promised you'll do kiss one day? Yeah. I just need six months to grab. To be on the lookout for that someday. You said something on text, and I wanted to ask you more about it.

But it's like, it's also such an incredible snapshot of like,

we set the 80s as excess, right? The 70s is like you're trying to like do a new thing. And then 90s is just the end of it. Right. We're at the end of the 90s, and it's kind of the end of alternative.

Like, because by the 2000s, we're back to pop. To miss them. But like, and sink Britney Spears and new metal. Yeah. And it's a completely like everything that we cherish just kind of dead.

And it's literally captured in this film. Yeah. She's kind of made of like, if the Ospares one is four. Yeah. She couldn't have made like a fourth.

One of these movies.

“And that's what like again, I mourn for the punk follow-ups.”

Like, I didn't she go with it. But like, yeah, I'm very glad that she made three instead of like. The blink when a two jaw breaker. Right.

Like, I don't think she was like interested in that.

Yeah. Like, like, 94. 95 like who else would have been like off-screen. Yeah. Like, I'm glad that that wasn't her end point of this, even though like for us,

musically and historically that kind of was the end point. Yeah. Of what started, you know, around the time of two or, you know, within the decade prior. And there just is no more. There's just no more hope after three after the millennium.

That something like this could mono culturally matter. Yeah. And that this is why four as a new metal movie functions is like a fine epilogue. Right. Because you can sort of draw a straight line.

That's a great way. Certainly from two to four. Yeah. And epilogue doesn't really look good. But yeah, watch three.

This is like kind of my imploring to people because I think most people have not seen three. It's dark. It's difficult.

“But it's also like, doesn't, she's such a genius.”

It doesn't start that way. It's just like all the other movies. These characters are so charismatic and compelling. They're so cool looking. You love watching them on screen. The music is literally unlessinable because got her punk and cross punk music.

It's tough. Love and respect to propaganda is not listen well. It's, yeah. Just again, watch this film. It's incredible.

There's not a scenario phone inside. Yeah. They had pagers. Just they talk about fleet 90s. They're squatting.

They are panhandling. They're spandhing. They're taking photos with tourists on the other hand. It's like a spider-man photo. And then a photo with a gutter punk for a dollar.

Right. But they're really like to bring it home to some of the OGs. Yeah. There is no future after that. Like that is the end.

If these mainstream artists that we're talking about, that really, you know, sold millions of albums. Like if that's literally the end, it opens the door to like something that is not subcultural. Not that two is subcultural.

Like what you would have made if you had found anything. L.A. Rock, L.A. punk punk anywhere. Eight years after three. And like the kind of, you know, roughly every decade or so every,

you know, that she was making these. Just would be just something nobody would want to watch. Like, you know, what would it be? Like newfound glory and like. You think, like the 2000s decline.

If she had kept doing it, like the premiere. It would be like, it would just be like, by that point there was too much filmmaking. There was too much media saturation. Yeah.

And the idea of bringing a camera into these spaces and into these shows and into these people's homes just would not have been even remotely relevant or interesting. Yeah. One minute passed when she kind of realized her.

Her trilogy was at an end. Well, the 2000s are really ugly. Like I keep saying.

And this is, I want to ask you.

It's probably the last thing I want to ask you is. You would think that now that it's. So easy to make a film right? I'm not saying it's easy because filmmaking is easy, but I'm just saying like,

Penelope Spirits had to beg borrow and steal to get like whatever 50 grand to make a movie and have like huge clunky equipment. And it's on film and like. And now you can just take your iPhone

and make a reasonably decent film.

“If you have some culture if you want to.”

No one does. Or maybe they do. I don't know about it. Do you think it's just because now. Sub cultures are so kind of already on.

The internet and already self-mathologizing with all social media and all content that just kind of. kills the necessity to document these kinds of things.

Well, you could produce that.

Okay. Bring your film. Yeah, I'm sure Bill Simmons, would you like to make a documentary about. Uh, young, lean and blade.

Yeah, why not? Straight to Netflix. Um, obviously this is like well-trared territory. But like this goes back to what I was saying earlier. Of at this time.

Like nobody knew what it meant to have a camera put in your face. Right. But they knew you had to perform for the camera. Yeah. Whether that manifests the way.

Darby crash does it or the way. Chris Holmes does it in two. Or Paul Stanley into like.

“You had to do something because the idea of like.”

Oh, they're making a movie and I'm in it. Was a big deal. Yeah. Now that's irrelevant. Like now that everybody doing it.

The filmmakers, the subjects. Would only be approaching it from perspective of marketing and branding and content creation. Or if they're you, how do I make it really weird? Yes. Well, that's my, yes, my approach.

You guys should watch statements. Yes. Like obviously you can still do it. But again, that was also hard to get money for. Yeah.

But like if you were just like, oh, there's this. You know, there are hardcore scenes now. Hardcore scenes actually quite popular these days. Incredibly popular. Like you could make a film.

Yeah. Of like what is the state of like the hardcore kids today. I would watch that. I would totally watch it. But to put a camera on somebody now.

“Mean something night and day from what it meant 30 years ago.”

Great. 35 years. Everyone is like a little too media savvy, a little too. It's just in the DNA. Now it's not even like people know what they're doing.

It's just it's been read into people now that it would. You would not get. What you have in these films. If you filmed people today unless you found like a unicorn subject. We're like genuinely seems like they come from another planet.

Yeah. And as much as we said, like there wasn't awareness starting with the client one of the subjects of their being filmed and they're kind of putting on a show. There's still something incredibly unsolved conscious about them when you're watching them in the way that you don't see anymore. Yeah. And like if the client one is right before MTV and decline two is like peak MTV.

Yeah. And decline three is right before reality TV. Like there's nothing after that. Great. There's no truth in filmmaking after the real world and after.

Great. Like what is the endpoint of what we're talking about. She makes an unreleased Osfest film and then the Osborns. Like yeah. What she's doing and reality TV and what MTV started right after this movie all collapse.

Yeah. Totally. As soon as the Millennium comes. And Osis obviously and if you count for which you know quotes, but like he's he's in two films that she made. Yeah.

And then immediately he's like a buffoon on a reality show. Right. And what she was doing.

I mean, everything I never watched a minute of the Osborns.

But I watched it like in my brain, even though I never saw it. Everything that show was trying to do was trying to get back to him making the eggs into clients. Yeah. For five years or so. And I think you're right.

Millions of dollars and money and franchising and marketing and commercials and Austin Powers. Cameos. All they're trying to do is make that scene where he pours the eggs all over the counter. She did not because that's real, but because she knew that that was good filmmaking. Yeah.

And it wasn't real actually, but we'll talk about that some other day. Listen to the penalty interview. Alex Ross Perry, thank you so much for joining me to talk about. Penelope Spirit is the declines of Western Civilization. Thanks for having me, Rossy.

I'm excited to listen to this interview. For me too, you guys stick around now for my interview with Penelope Spirit. You guys, what a pleasure and an honor to be joined by Penelope Spirit. I'm over the moon. I can't explain it.

I'm such a huge fan of Penelope. Thank you for making time to come talk to me. Oh, are you kidding me? Whenever I ask anybody about Yasi, they're like, oh, you got to do it. You got to do it.

So I'm doing it. You know, I'm going to cry. She's so cute. Well, I'm using this excuse of the episode as ostensibly about the decline of Western Civilization,

But I want to just talk more broadly about you and your career.

And what I really see is like the way you shaped the visual language of what I grew up in, which is 90s MTV. Like, I really don't think any of that would exist without the work that you did prior that influence and impacted everything that came after it. No, my Lord, thank you so much.

Just a fine fine compliment, Yasi. Well, it's very true and we'll get into it a little bit further in my questions. But even if you just rewatch the decline as I do once yearly, like a totally normal person, you know, the confessional vibe of the interviews, the light bulb, the font, the freeze frames. That is classic 90s MTV filmmaking.

And it came from you. Well, you know what's freaky is when I did the decline. It was a shot in 79 and 80. And you're going to be better at this than me, but MTV was born in 82. Yeah, something like that.

Yeah, but it was after I did the decline.

And I used to always get journalists asking me,

“Penelope, why do you copy the editing style and the shooting style of the MTV videos?”

And it's like, no, you got a backwards man. I did it before that. Yeah. It launched August 81. So your film was done and I think it already may be premiered by that.

Oh, yeah. Yeah. It was February. It came out. Yeah.

So anyway, I don't want to bust him for it. But then again, yes, I do. Well, I, I wasn't. I'll let you not have to do. You can, you can just sit back and, you know,

bask because I'm happy to go in these streets and fight over it.

Oh, she's. I'm, I really think, well, and also, okay, I'm just going to take it from the top. But I went to a screening of decline. I want to say it was last year at video.

Do you remember this year? Yeah, I was there. Yeah. It was a video. Yeah.

And I learned some very interesting information from that, as well, that I want to talk about. But I want to start with what. Okay, a couple of things that I didn't realize until I was sort of digging. I'm unfortunately addicted to research.

Okay. So, and a lot of this stuff is out there, but just for people that aren't aware. So you were raised in a carnival. Let's start there. Oh, boy.

Yeah. My father owned a carnival. And I was on a carnival and I was seven years old. He got killed in an argument. Yeah.

Defending a black man in our nation. He was defending a black man in Alabama in 1952, which you know, if you're defending a black man back then, you're guilt. And so the guy got off, you know. So every time I have to go to court right now, even jury duty,

I freak out because when I was seven years old, I was so freaked out. You're just a kid, you know. And I, I, whenever, I mean, I just got out of a court case, which I thankfully won.

But every time I have to deal with that stuff, it just put fear in me, you know. But yeah, I mean, my life was perfect until I was seven years old. And then, you know, everything went to hell. Yeah.

And I've been recovering from it ever since.

“And I think part of the reason I make the movies that I do”

is because it's a way to work out my, you know, paying an issues from that experience totally. I mean, I was really struck by, well, number one, I subscribed to the theory that zero to seven really shapes your understanding of the world.

You're brilliant because that is exactly what psychologists and psychiatrists say is that by the time you're that age, you, but before seven, you have your personality formed totally. Okay. Did you know how you know that?

You just researched it. Yeah, I'm really a self-help. And I'm just really into psychology. And, and I've gone to the same Jungian therapist for 13 years. I'm very interested in that sort of understanding.

And then the idea that the subconscious, which was formed by the time you were about seven, is sort of running the show of your life and until you're able to excavate and sort of bring it to the surface and be like, oh, wait, my six-year-old self-decided,

“that's why you do yourself is different than now.”

Right. You gotta get that in your head because I really, you know, honestly, I have to fight it all the time. You know, if I have, oh, I got a court date on April 3rd.

It's stored in your body that feeling. And you cannot change your brain.

“You know, you just have to make it a separate thing.”

Yeah. You know, you're so smart for me on that. Thank you. I've, I've just been so crazy for so long that I've been like, how do we undo some of this craziness

with a few little, you know, look at your beautiful and crazy. So that makes me like you. I think I'll be right back at you. Well, I just, I was, I was struck by the fact that I would assume growing up in something that is sort of chaotic,

but in a beautiful way, like a carnival. But also aesthetically, I'm sure so vibrant and interesting. And I mean, carnivals have freaks, right? You know, like, it's one of the most of the things on our carnival were sideshow acts we called it.

Yeah. And that's the thing is, at that early age, those people were normal to me. Right? And so I am very attracted to those freaks.

I'm literally freaks. Yeah. I'm attracted to them. And it makes me feel like that seven year old where everything was okay.

Yeah. It makes sense to me why time and time again in your work. You've been drawn back to these subcultures of freaks. Yeah.

Because back in the day, you know, when I did the first decline,

you know, the average person that saw the movie, well, the first screening I had in the first comment was how dare you glorify these heathens. Okay.

“That's what the average person thought about punks in 1980.”

And I'm like, heathens. Oh, they're just people to me. Yeah. They're just kids. They're just kids.

Yeah. But, you know, we talk about it a lot on bands playing in our regular episodes. When we talk about bands, and we just did an episode on the germs last week. And it's very funny because when I talk to younger people, and again, I wasn't around then.

But even younger people, they're so saturated by alternative culture. They grew up without knowing that that was ever actually transgressive. That that was actually people would beat you up or spit on you. Or so that they now think that that's kind of like the germs are corny. And it's like, you can't understand what risks they took just being

who they were in the world. They set the stage for everything that came better for worse from there.

I never heard that we're corny associated with the germs.

That's very interesting. These people need to go to school. They need to be educated.

“Well, I think it's interesting just on a cultural level that the younger people now don't understand it and interpret it that way, you know.”

It was, but those same people, they were in Mohox and they were in torn up clothes and safety pins, you know, I'm saying totally. So they don't know where that came from. And that's that it came from that day. And and Darby and all the people in the, you know, punk scene back in the early days. Again, I'm so struck by so many of the similarities between your story and then a lot of the subjects of your documentary is,

but you moved to California because your mother remarried. First of my mom, my mom was married nine times. She was like Elizabeth Taylor bitch. I don't think so. Oh, well, I mean, okay, hold my beer.

My mom is just to say, I beat Elizabeth Taylor. She was only married eight times, but I was married nine. Yeah. Did she have any advice or did she leave any advice? Because I've been married zero times and I just love to get to like a one or two, maybe.

No, you don't. Forget about that. I'll see. You're right. Get on it.

Okay. And I have my podcast. I have my cat. You got the cat. Yeah.

But you got a lot going on.

And I never advise people to get married.

I'm not married. Now I've been with a gutter punk from the decline three for 28 years. You know, and he's gets a frenic, believe it or not. And I want to get married and he doesn't want to get married. I mean, that's a good way to screw things up.

Yeah. It's also very, it's very traditional. But that brought you out to Orange County originally. Is that where? Well, yeah.

She married this dude. He was in the army. That one. And we moved to I think of San Diego first, right around there, two VISTA national city.

And then we had. You know what? Here's my. I was really doing the YMCA of a husband. Another thing about my mom is she's all about like we got to have health insurance for the kids.

So she goes and, you know, she married. She would have. Most of the time she married because just to help us out, you know. So then we moved to Long Beach and we moved all over Orange County.

It sounds like you were always drawn to music.

And it sounds like it was for the same reason that. But teens for eternity have been drawn to music to kind of escape the pain of their life. Yeah, exactly. And I get it. Of course.

Why did I love music? You know, you're here. Yeah. Well, in this. So this is.

I was soon the 60s.

“What kind of music were you going to kind of shows were you saying back then?”

I really what is as a kid as it's like a 10 year old. I was into, you know, rock and roll. Yeah. And then as 60s came along. I wasn't really, I never really tapped into the hippie philosophy because,

to me, the world wasn't all peace and love and beautiful.

Okay. So in the 60s though, all the hippies were, you know, with the long hair. I got into that music. And then the 70s came along and I was still kind of transition. I mean, all my hippies, friends, we're all doing drugs back then.

Sure. But, you know, we kind of left them behind. And I started focusing on this punk thing in the mid 70s. Right. And how did that kind of come around?

Like, I know. So you had gone to school. Was it psychopathology that you were studying? Yeah. Believe it or not, that was a name of a class or a major back then.

Psychobiology. It sounds like crazy. Yeah. Psychobiology.

And it really basically is the study of human behavior, which I see you're interested in as well.

You know, it was Pavlov and Skinner and those guys that did experiments trying to understand human behavior. Yeah. And that was fascinating to me. I wanted to know why my mom treated her kids that way. Which was not good because she was Google lover, but she was not.

“And, you know, and why when I started making the movies, why are these kids acting this way?”

Yeah. And the best I can say, just to sum it up, Yassie, is every generation has to have their own identity. Yeah. And, you know, there was the rock roll, then there was the hippies, and then there was the punks. And then there was the Seattle Grunge guys.

And then soon after that it kind of melted into homogenized oatmeal. Yeah. My favorite theory about that. And my theory about that is that when the internet came. Yep.

It stopped time. Kind of because people just started referencing back. Even more than they were before because it was so easy to do so. And they stopped making new things. That's so smart.

It's true. I'm trying to figure out what happened because there were, you know, generations that had an identity from a specific kind of music. Yeah. And you didn't cross over. Like, it wasn't.

No, you didn't. Yeah. And we talked about this on bands playing on. Even when I was a teen because that was, you know, the early to mid 90s, you, you didn't. You were one thing.

That's right. Those are the skaters listen to punk. Those are the ravers. Right. They, you know, do access.

And go to raves or whatever. Yeah. It did not happen. And then there was a hip hop. And then there were still hippies.

They were still like the kids that listen to like, you know, lead zeppelin and kind of live in the past. But you didn't really do both. And now everything, everybody does everything. And they don't know where it came from either. Well, that's the sad part.

Yeah.

“That's why you're good to be doing this show.”

Well, because I think it's important. It's, it's funny. I was thinking this morning. I was finishing up rewatching decline three, which I'm so excited to talk about. And I was just like, man, like, it was difficult for you to get funding, to get you how much equipment you had to.

Like, when we talk about decline one, we'll talk about how like a lot of it. And then you can crack me if I'm wrong, came about because you had equipment that day. And it wasn't just easy. And now I'm like, everyone has a, everyone has the equipment. It's in your pocket.

Yeah. But there's no films. There's not aware of the doc, there should be a documentary a day coming out of every corner of the world.

Because there are people that are making them. Right. Here's the thing. They don't know how to get them distributed. Recently, I've been getting.

I don't want to call it submissions, but, but people sending me their work. Yeah.

“And saying, how can I get this out to the world without selling my soul?”

And not making money on it or whatever. But I try to advise them. I got an email back from one guy. And he goes, why are you so kind and helpful? And I answered him and said, well, because I got screwed over so bad.

In the studio system and in the independent world. And learned a lot of lessons. And I'd like to pass them on. So you don't get screwed over. Totally.

I mean, what else is there? Now I'm going to get a lot of submission. I know. Rip Ripley is going to get in the, hurry. Her inbox.

She already does. Well, I want to ask you. Because you went to UCLA film school. Yeah. And back then, the idea of becoming a director as a woman was like,

you were going to walk on Mars, right? That was really, that wasn't really like on the table. So what did you aspire to do? Like, why, why did you go to film school? What did you think you were going to do?

Well, I went to film school because when I was studying Psychobiology over at, was a long beach and then Irvine University. Some guys said, they have a film school. You say, I'm like, oh my god, they have a place where you could learn how to make movies.

I love movies. I'm going to go there. So I went, but I still had this urge to understand human behavior. And so I kind of put the two together. Yeah.

And I wasn't trying.

I mean, the decline, the first decline you probably know,

Yasi is recently inducted into the Library of Congress of National Film Register. I mean, back then I couldn't get a theater, right? Back then, then it was like a smut film. They were like that pornography and we wanted to show that. That's right.

Yeah. It was considered trash. Okay. And then it goes into the Library of Congress. And I tell that not to congratulate myself,

but more to let young filmmakers and people in general know

“if they truly believe in something, which I believe in that film”

and the series. You know, that stick with it. It can work out. Trust your instinct, follow. Trust your instinct.

Something you think is important. You should be talking. So you had started making music videos prior to the decline, right? Yeah.

I had the first music video company here in Los Angeles.

Rock in real. Rock in real. Yeah. How did you get into that? Making music videos.

I had a friend who had seen some of my short films from UCLA, Peter Filman is his name and he worked out CBS Records. And one day he called me up and said, "Could you make us a music video?" We didn't use that term then.

We just said, "Could you shoot one of our bands?" Because there was no MTV. So it was just a promotional video. Here's what happened. And all of a sudden, one day, the record companies figured out

“that they didn't need to send the whole band around the world to tour.”

They could just send a little... Three minutes of 35 millimeter or 16 is about like that. Yeah. They could just send that. And then the hotel rooms wouldn't get destroyed.

You know? Sure. A lot less liability. Exactly. So that's when all of a sudden I started getting all these gigs

because nobody else was doing it. You know? Yeah. I mean, I filmed, but it was just performance. It wasn't concept.

Right. Concept videos came a little bit later. Yeah. Once MTV got started. Right.

And then I started doing the concept videos too. Yeah. And then the budgets went, I used to make... That, like, on, I don't know, 20, 30,000 dollars and Peter and the people at CBS would say here.

Go shoot the performance. And then if you have any money left over, you can have it. Okay. I'm not any money left over.

Like, we're making a good video. I'm going to use the budget. Yeah. Exactly. But now, you know, once MTV got rolling, you know,

they were doing million dollar budgets.

Oh yeah. And this was out there with plenty of money to make these incredible videos. Yeah. I don't know the exact timeline, but well, two things. You just said you were making short films.

Mm-hmm. You see, Elliot. And I do want to just talk about two of them. Mm-hmm. I don't know, and hats off to Hollywood, which...

These, these were short films starting trans actors

that were your friends, right? Through, through, through, like us. Yeah. And I mean, no one else, right? Was, was anyone else doing films?

Mm-hmm.

“About non-speak the will of Andy Warhol.”

Sure, of course. You know, duh. Yeah. Yeah. So it was Andy Warhol.

Yeah. Yeah. But I was highly criticized for making the transgender friends of mine stars of my student films. Right.

They were not accepted well back then. Yeah. Well, now they're playing at the Whitney. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. So again, follow your instincts. But I just like my transgender friends because they were the most interesting people. I knew. I mean, they were hilarious.

And still are. Yeah. I mean. And, you know, they've had to go through a lot of difficult, you know, criticism and people making comments and all this.

And develop an amazing sense of humor from it. Sure. I know. And so that's, yeah. I was, I was, I had a my time on that when I guess because now thank God.

It's being more accepted that you can change your gender totally. Okay. I want to ask about Lauren Michaels. And this is the thing that struck me the most at that video. I need a drink of coffee.

Yeah. So I was quite surprised to learn that Lauren Michaels had asked you to teach. Albert Brooks, how to direct. Can you tell me a little bit more about this?

“How did you know Lauren Michaels that he came to you?”

Oh, thank you for asking that because you know, Rob Reiner. God bless his soul.

When he did that movie about Albert, they never taught to me.

You're not mentioned. Right. Well, what happened was I was friends with Jon head and Gary Wise who had just done a movie on me Hendrix and I helped him with it and Lauren was their friend. And we all lived in this house together down on Tangabeach and Lauren would hang out there.

And one morning I was making an omelet to this day. Lauren still says I make the best omelets for Lauren and he's looking at the Sunday paper. And he goes, you know, I think I'm going to go to New York and try to start a show. I'm going to relate on Saturday night for people that don't have anything else to do. And we all went, "Sure, Lauren."

Go ahead. Great idea, babe. And then he asked me if I would go to New York and work on the show. But at that point, I had a four year old daughter and I didn't want to have to go to New York.

So he said, "Well, could you, if I need something out in LA, could you do it for me?" And I said, "Hell yeah, just give me a couple bucks." And so he called me one day and he goes, "I've got a brilliant comedian, but he doesn't want to be a player. He only want to make movies and he doesn't know how." So can you please teach Albert Brooks how to make movies?

“I said, "Oh yeah, here's my address for the check."”

Yeah. I think he paid hardly anything. But to be honest with you, I was kind of a fan of Albert. Sure. Because he's a genius comedian.

I had work with Richard Prior before that. Okay. So I'm all of a sudden I got like, now I got Albert Brooks, another genius comedian. But he was kind of difficult to work with. Albert was.

Oh yeah, honey, he gave me, I call it, "The Hollywood Hebie JB's." Okay. So it's like, "Hollywood, oh God, we know it's like everything. I don't know." I don't know.

There's got to be some sort of psychological diagnosis for whatever the hell he has. Well, I personally think fame should be in the DSM-5. I think fame is a mental illness. I think so too. Nobody can survive it.

It's difficult. It makes it crazy. It's very difficult. Yeah. But anyway, Albert, he was paying the ass.

But I did teach him how to make movies. We did a bunch of shorts on Saturday night, five.

And then I produced his first feature.

Real life. Thank you. God, you're good. I have notes. You're so smart.

You know, you're IQ. You're very smart. You don't know my IQ. You don't. That's between God and my brain.

I don't know. Wow. That's a trip. Yeah. So anyway, that was hell.

And then I then he went on to make all these other movies. And the bastard didn't even call me to help you part of it. And I said, well, screw him. I'm going to go direct to my own punk rock movie.

Robert Reiner, James Brooks, you know, Billy Crystal, all of those guys. And they were all making fun of me for wanting to do a movie about punk. But I did it anyway. Yeah. So there you go.

Number one. Thank you for doing that. Because indirectly, you helped create some of the greater films like defending your life. I mean, those were not exist if you had not taught. This is a real butterfly effect.

You know, nobody would have taught him probably or he would have gone to films. But not the same way. I'm sure the way that you taught us had an impact.

I mean, you know, they never gave me any credit for it.

And I'm welcome. I don't care. Yeah. Well, you know, this is another one of my galaxy brain theories that sometimes people don't like. And I mean this very archetypically.

“But I think inspiring and being amused or, you know, kind of creativity is a very feminine.”

That's a feminine realm. Credit is very masculine, right? Because it's the patriarchy. It's capitalism. And it's, and doesn't mean that women shouldn't get credit.

Women should get credit. But that is so masculine to get credit. And also to not want to give credit because they want to keep it for themselves. Oh, my God. My life is summed up in two cents.

Jesus. When I did Wayne's world. Yeah. Okay.

We had a screening at a village theater of the first opening night.

Yeah. And all the guys men from Paramount were there in the lobby afterwards. They knew that that film worked. Okay. And they were.

Yeah. They were all. We were all in a circle about it because this table.

“And they were all saying how great they were for making the movie.”

And then they all closed me out. And I was ending up looking at somebody's back like suit back. So, yeah. Never got that credit. Yeah.

I don't like it. I don't. I don't care for that. Yeah. I don't care for that.

Well, yeah. It's true. What are you going to do? I wanted to ask you how you sort of fell into punk. And it seems to me like you're just sort of tapped into subcultures.

Anyways, and you're into music. But they also read, because I'm researching the runaways right now, that your sister dated was Andy West. Yes. Okay.

The drama. Yes. And I was like, wow. The other thing that I was so excited is since we're talking about your family. And then I promised we're going to go into the decline next.

Was that your first cousin is Costa Gavras.

And, okay. So, my friend Sarah is good friends with his son. And she was like Roman. Roman. And I was texting with her, because she was my best friend.

And I, we talk all day. And I was like, I, this, this impression is so cool. And she was like, oh, let me ask Roman. And then he said, that, and please tell me if this story is true, because I really hope it is that you guys didn't know that until the 90s when you were at a dinner

together. And you struck up a conversation about your families and it turned out they were like both from the same village and Greece. My version of this story is that my brother, Jimmy, who was a brilliant singer and songwriter and played every instrument without ever taking a lesson. Jimmy was walking down the street in Venice in the late 70s.

Yeah. Okay, because I remember inviting Costa to the opening of the decline. So it was before 1980. Okay. Okay.

Whoever my brother was with, new Costa, and said I'd like to introduce you to Jimmy's Ferris and Costa said, that's my mother's maiden name. Wow. And we figured out that Costa's mother and my father or brother and sister. It's so insane.

Well, it makes you think too that maybe the, I don't want to say, talent, but the ability to direct films might be genetic. I think that's exactly what I thought. And just in general, like artisticness or creativity. Because again, your brother was a very talented musician.

You know, you and Costa are celebrated filmmakers.

“All of Costa's children, I believe, make films.”

That's right. I think the coming and making a carnival, that's a creative act. You know, it might not be that you're making a creative product in the world, but that's not a normal person. It's entertainment.

Exactly. You know more about me than I do. I'm really sorry. I know it's scary. No, no, no.

It's flattering. I should work for the FBI. No, no, no. No. But I find these things so interesting.

Because I do think like what I hope with these interviews is that people that don't know anything or getting a really broad and great look at the kind of filmmaker you are and what you've done.

You know, because I didn't do it for nothing, you know. And I didn't think I was going to get this far. I mean, you've done us a great service. So you found you kind of were tapped into this punk scene. I heard an interview.

You were also friends with Brendan Mullen. Already prior to him even opening the mask. So you just saw this subculture. And you were like, I want to make. I want to document this.

What, you know, Bob Biggs is a co-tealer in the high. Also the found the Iran slash records and the magazine. Yeah. In addition to his other jobs.

I was always hanging around the slash office.

And slash was a punk magazine, right? I caught it. And so we went to all the punk shows. And there was a point when I'd said to Bob and Filly and Steve Samioff and and Claude Bessie. I'm going to make a, I'm going to try to make a movie.

I had like some little, you know, high eight camera. Sure. And I would drive around and film all the. Punk graffiti and everything. Yeah.

And they were like, well, even they caught me crazy. What are you doing? This is, you don't need to make a movie about punk. Which is so crazy.

“Because I heard you say that's what I saw.”

It's like eight insane. But B, I was listening to a podcast. And I can't, and I'm not going to dox the person. Because I honestly can't even remember who they were. The name of their band.

But they were sort of trying to be like,

Oh, I talked to the guy from the weirdos. And he said that the whole thing was Penelope made this. Because it was like all slash bands. And it was slash wanted this promo movie. And I was like, Oh, we're very can go kiss.

My big fat. I was like, why dance? It was really like from A from what I've heard from your interviews. But B. There's a reason why they call on the weirdos.

Yeah. And I'm, I'm like, also I've read a lot about slash with love and respect in my heart. I do not think they could have gotten that together to think about like, well, we're going to make a promo movie about our bands.

You know, no, no. And here's the, here's the tragic thing. Is that the bands that were in the movie. I mean, yeah, they were associated with slash records.

But it was just because I knew them.

You know, because I was kissing Bob's ass or something. Yeah, I mean, you, you had to have access. And you had to have people that would agree to film with you. And obviously you're going to go. No, that's a really lame interpretation of my mod.

It's an also, it has to do with your theory about men giving credit. Exactly. Okay. They don't want to give me credit. Exactly.

They want to give the credit to the men who ran slash records. Yeah. Yeah. And the thing is X, the band who really sort of starred in the movie. Sure.

“I think they threw me inadvertently into the same bucket as Bob B.”

Because he was a slime ball. Right. And so I think because of that. I mean, we're not friends. You know, I don't, I don't think they like me.

I don't care. Right. But you know, it's just a misunderstanding. That makes so much sense that you say this. Because there is like a feeling of sort of like you're the man.

Like I can feel it when you're watching the film. There's a mistrust a little bit. Yeah. You know, and that makes a lot of sense. Because I've read what those bands have said about Bob Biggs.

And they were not fans. And they did feel that he took advantage. So he was just like every other record executive record label owner. Trying to exploit bands to make money. The Germans.

That's what he did. Yeah. The Germans deal was like draconian. People don't like know about this. I don't think that much.

But if you look into it, it was like just as bad as like a major like. Yeah. They didn't have any representation. They didn't have any money. They didn't have anybody to watch their back.

Totally. Yeah. They had Bob was all about just taking advantage. Yeah. So there are.

Was it five bands, six bands, and did a fine.

“Were there other bands that you were into or aware of at the time that you wish you had included?”

I was going to say the weirdos. But now I won't. They did the plenty. The screamers. And the funny part you're going to love is is the go go.

So I wanted a woman. Sure. Band in female band in the movie. So the go go was just about to break out and become the big band that they were. And they were supposed to be in the movie in the decline.

But they ditched out at the last minute. Like Gunson Rose's did for decline too.

But the funny part is, you know, they made a big, yeah, whatever.

And then years later I get a request from some management somewhere.

“Could we please license some footage from the decline just to prove that the go goes were there during that time?”

Like you mean you really want to take part of my movie that they didn't want to view it. To give them credibility, kiss my butt. Like they could have had the credibility at the time. I mean it is, but then, you know, guns back around. They didn't get the credibility because they're women and they blew up.

You know what? They're a pop band. Here's the thing. That's right. I'm glad that didn't work out because they're bubblegum.

And so I didn't need that in the decline anyway. Yeah, and you had all this bag, you know, and you have women. You have a senior of all this bag. You know, she don't like me either. All this bag?

Yeah. Interesting.

Well, she's pretty good at, she better at promoting herself than me.

But yeah, she says I came into the scene really late. She was there a long time. Who cares? Who came first, man? She didn't know me until she knew me.

You know, she didn't know what the hell I was doing before that. Well, I'm not going to get started on her. Well, I think it's very interesting. And I want to talk about only going to decline too. But I want to come back to that because I do think the like rules

and the like fascism of punk, which actually, the literal fascism in which, you know, it's very interesting how and you knew Darby. I didn't know him. I've just read.

“But clearly it was kind of a bit of a genius, right?”

And some ways on a different level. It's a scandal genius. Yeah, I mean, I think he was kind of...

I don't think, yeah, it's not like, oh my god, this guy's Einstein.

Right. You know, it's like he just did shit. That was, wait a minute. It's accidentally genius. Yeah, you know.

It's, it's really crazy to me reading about his theories and views. And also just in general that people read books back then, young people read books, and they were very proud to read books in the internet. Yeah, but even punks. I mean, fast forward to the gutter punks of decline three.

They were not reading books. I don't think, you know. And now, I mean, young people barely read books. But did the, number one, did the name, the decline of Western civilization come from Darby?

Because I know he was obsessed with the Oswald Spangler book, the decline. Well, no, it was just a coincidence. That book was called the decline and fall in fall. And fall Western civilization. Yeah.

I just took the fall out, right? Because it was just, it was kind of a popular text of the popular, as a wrong word to say about a German nationalist. But you know what I mean. But it was.

It was kind of a very talked about book in the Holy Ghost. Oh, yeah. It was well known. Yeah. He, his name.

And by the way, for people that are naming their books or their movies, titles are not copyrightable. Interesting. You can use it. I could make a movie called Gone With The Wind.

Well, they probably don't. Your audience doesn't know what that is. Hold on. I could make a movie called Jurassic Park. Or like how someone else made a movie called Suburbia.

Or like Lincoln, or did that like ship shit? He did change the letter sizes. Yeah, I know because he knew he was doing something wrong. That's why he did it. Yeah, because he knew it was wrong.

You're so good. God. But anyways, what I'm obsessed with is this, the idea that a young person like Darby has disaffected all the young people in these stories.

“That's, I think the through line is, you know, they're disaffected.”

They have difficult home lives. Society is not fitting them in. That he was, you know, very into the idea of fascism. And, you know, Bowie before him and talked about it. And it just makes me think about fast word 2026, right?

And if you're online at all, fascism is also very popular with a sect of young people who are not punks. They are right wing. But that is the new transgression. And I'm like, if Darby Crash was born in 1997, would he have been an online troll of the right wing

instead of a punk, if Klovicular, do you know, Klovicularis? And it sounds like a disease. Actually, in desperate, I would love if Penelope Spirits would make a documentary about Klovicular. Klovicular is an online figure. I told this to my therapist last week and she, I could tell she was just like, so depressed

that I had brought her this information. Like her? She wished she didn't know it. He's 20 years old. He live streams all day.

That's his, like, and he makes a lot of money. His main thing is that he is a looks Maxor. So he takes testosterone.

He is all about, like, being a prime physical specimen.

And this is a thing. And there are many people follow him.

“And it's, it's all these disaffected young men, right?”

And I just, like, I want, I need Penelope to make a documentary about these young people. I couldn't even stand to be in the same room with that dude. How could I make a documentary about it? But I want to know, I need to know more. He's, he said something in his...

No, I don't know. You need to do is ignore him. He's ridiculous. If what you described is true. But it's a thing, right?

We'll go make a movie about him. I know. You want to have that, that, that freak on the show here? I used to like freaks, but not that kind. It's a different, but it's still a freak, you know?

I don't like freaks. I can't, my brain goes to galaxy. Well, I mean, I'm sorry that I've informed you about a specific killer.

You were living a beautiful life when you did that.

I was like, "I was a killer for that." No, I mean, I'll, I'll go check it out right now. But for me, something that's attractive in a person is imperfection. Right? Totally.

Not perfection, yeah. You know?

“And perfection, I mean, here's the thing.”

I told Ripley this morning, my assistant, my lovely assistant. He was 26 years old, and she had to get the boyfriend. And does that don't? But anyway, I told her this morning. I said, "The one thing I really like about Yasi."

Because I checked her a little bit. She's not, she's not all Kardashian out, you know? That's what really makes me sad is that so many young people follow that model. And that's upon, by the way. Well, how looks are so important and how you're supposed to have the lips and the fingernails

and the d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d-d and all this. And I'm so glad that some people are starting to step away from it. Well, I think what's the craziest part for me is that they are doing all of this. And then they're not living life. They don't have sex.

They don't do it to have sex.

They don't do it to live in the world. It's like a Zambac, right, or GLP ones, where all these people are now very thin. But it has killed their libido for a lifetime. What you're saying is it's not rewarding. No.

On a spiritual level. Yeah. And it actually diminishes, it almost is like inverse relation. Like the hotter they get, the less they are in the fall in the real world. Okay, so it doesn't that apply to that, dude.

You were just 100%. He also is like, "I would rather not have sex. I would rather just know that I can." And to me, it's really depressing to me. But I know I'm isolated. I know my guys that are so into themselves that they can't be into other people.

Totally. And compassionate and empathetic. The whole thing is really depressing to me.

“And I think it's going to, I think we're going to hit a breaking point where people are going to remember that there's the point.”

The only point of ever like being hot is to have fun in the world or to have sex or to engage with people. Or be a good person. Or be a good person. The main point. But it's just like, why be hot to what end, to take photos of yourself?

Right. To be a two-dimensional. I think it's internet damage to social media damage. Yeah. Totally.

Okay. Did you have a personal favorite subject in the film? Personal favorite. And not maybe that you liked. That's what I tell you about.

That's what I tell you about. That's what I tell you about. That's what I tell you about. That's what I tell you about. That's what I tell you about.

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That's what I tell you about. That's what I tell you about. That's what I tell you about. Interesting. No, that's great.

“I mean, so many amazing creative things come from limitation.”

That's true. And so if I've got a song going on or somebody talking voice over, you know, like leaving when he's singing in this girl just burned her arm and declined three. And it's like everybody's got to have something. And I got to have another beer and he was still going on.

But I needed a freeze frame so I could let that song complete. Wow. And that's one reason. And then the other reason, of course, is emphasis, you know. And freeze frames were a thing you did back when I was in college.

You know, and people don't didn't do them that much lately, you know. I mean, and you know, you continued in Wayne's world, which is the comedic voice and it's just that I do frames world. There was that I do freeze frames. Oh, yeah.

Yeah. The Wayne. Yeah. When you were filming Darby, because that was near the tail end of his personal decline, and did you sense was there like a real darkness about him or around him when you were spending

time with him? Well, here's the thing.

“I've been around drug use my whole life.”

My daughter's father died of a heroin overdose. You know, my mom was a flat out drunk. You know, I've been around fucked up people my whole life. So the use drugs like that to perform because of stage fright and the fear of getting up front of all those people.

Yeah, it's the way to calm the nerves, you know, and he just kind of overdid it. Now, if you ask me addiction and drug use and overdue to overuse comes from environment, yes, but primarily genetics. Okay, because his brother had the same problem. His brother, you know, his brother was actually he was a drug addict, but you know, he died

because he was murdered by a drug dealer who gave him like an overdose on purpose. Because he owed him money and left him in a car and Venice is not horrible. And that's where the scene in suburbia comes from where they bring Sheila back to her parents' house and put him in her his parents' car. Facebook or was Darby's parents and his brother died before him.

Suburbia is the next film that you made. 83. So it was not that long after. How does the decline received? Did it like, because you're saying it was very difficult to even get it screened?

Yeah, I couldn't get it screened. All I wanted was one midnight show. I asked the dudes over at Chinese theater and they said nobody wants to see a documentary and nobody wants to see punk rock. So I went across the street to the Hollywood theater and they said, "We'll give you one midnight show,

but we're sure nobody will come." And then so many people came that the chief of police wrote me a letter afterwards and said, "Don't show this movie in Los Angeles again." 300 motorcycle cops showed up. Yeah, I mean, we have pictures of it. The thing them, the guys that Manch Chinese said was,

“"If you want to make a movie about punk rock, go ahead and write a narrative piece."”

And so that's when I wrote Suburbia.

Just a backtrack for one second.

I feel like you approached decline one and honestly all the declines with a completely sort of like, you know, objective lens. Like it doesn't, didn't feel like you were trying to show any sort of stuff down there. Right.

Like, where do you think that came from and how did that feel?

“Who's negative about it? You mean, just some of the players?”

Yeah, just some of the players. Did it hurt your feelings given that you knew they were? It was just the only one that ever thanked me for being in the decline. And guess what? I'm not so sure any of those other bands would be too well known if it wasn't for the decline.

But here's what I learned in life.

If you're going to give something, you can't expect to be thanked totally. You just have to give it and do it out of the goodness of your heart. And don't expect anybody to thank you. Yeah. And that's the way I work my life.

Yeah. And I do think people aren't aware of what it might feel like to be documented because it's hard to see yourself documented. You know? Yeah. I mean, Eugene, in the first decline, you know, like the dirty old people on the bus or whatever he called them.

He used to call me and he doesn't do it anymore because I let him talk to my badass boyfriend. But he used to call me and go, I'm so sorry. I was in that movie.

You know, people always coming up to me and criticizing me for this and that.

And like, dude, you said it. I didn't tell you to say it, you know? Yeah, but I wish I wasn't ever in that movie. And then he would say send me some money. But you can.

I started my few bucks and then he bugged the shit out of me. So I just told them fuck off. Yeah, Eugene, there's we've already paid you.

“So you said you made soberbia because someone said you need to make a narrative film if you want to write about punks.”

But it really does sit in this like really interesting space between documentary and narrative. And it sounds like it's because you took a lot of the story from real experiences. Yeah. Yeah.

Is that also why you wanted to cast mostly real people?

Yeah, the real punks is who I cast and I had to convince the producer or the financiers that it was easier to teach punks how to act than it was to teach actors how to be a punk. Because nobody knew what a punk was back then. Right, you know, yeah, and it's not until like, I mean, I just rewatch repo man recently and I was like, okay, by then they kind of like, but even a lot of those kids and that I think were real punks. Like you can kind of see the extras. Yeah.

Alex Cox came to me when he was going to make that movie. And he goes, I'm so scared. What am I going to do? What am I going to do? And I'm like, what you'll do what you just didn't go on.

He was scared of the punks. No, he's actually did hang out with him. I think he was scared to make a movie. But I saw him lately in a film festival when he's such a sweetheart. So you had you had gotten some financing and then you went to Roger Corman to ask him to match it.

Right.

“How did you know Roger Corman and why did you feel he might be the right match for this film?”

I knew Roger Corman because in the late 60s he did a movie called The Wild Angels. And it did pretty well. And then he wanted to make a movie called The Naked Angels. And it was about a motorcycle gang. And I was an extra in Roger Corman movie.

And I was surely animal's girlfriend. Good God. And I tried to make money, you know, 50 bucks a day, you know. And my sister worked for Roger as a set decorator. And he was so cheap that she would have to drive around the alleys in Venice where the stage was that he had. And find mattresses so that the stuntman could land on them.

Right. Yeah. Anyway, I was with an actor in the Naked Angels. Yeah, it's embarrassing. But whatever.

Why? Well, I mean, I'd rather be remembered for being a director than an extra. Well, I don't think anybody remembers you for being an extra. So I think you're doing okay. Most people are very aware that you're a great job.

So it's a really bad movie, you know? Well, whatever. And he was down. He was like, Oh, co finance this movie. That sounds cool. Yeah. He cost $500,000, which was a lot back there.

I'm sure an independent movie. And Bert Dragon pitched in to 50. I went to Roger, got another to 50.

I can't believe it, you know. And Roger, he wouldn't have been as violent as it was. But Roger told me, Penelope, you got to rewrite your script. And you got to put either sex scene or a violence scene every 10 minutes. I'm like, I can't do that.

He goes, "Well, then you can't make the movie." Okay, shit. And so then I go back to the typewriter. And I go back and I rewrite the script so that every 10 minutes.

And there's shit in there that I would never put in like the girl with the getting the dress torn off.

That didn't happen. Right. It punks shows. Yeah. But I mean, if somebody did that, they'd get their ass kicked.

Yeah. But, you know, I rewrote it just because if I didn't, I wouldn't be able to make the movie. Yeah. Looking back, do you regret that? Like, do you wish that it had a different...

I don't regret it. I'm thankful to Roger Anne Bird for letting me make that movie. It was my first dramatic piece. Yeah. But what I do regret is that I have a whole, um, Ripley knows this.

I have two or three file cabinets full of scripts that I could never get made. Okay. And they would have been more like suburbia if I could have gotten them made. But after I did Wayne's world, I could only get hired to do comedies. This is something I wanted to ask you.

So, you do a couple films after Seruvia. The boys next door, Hollywood, Vice Squad, dudes.

A film I've never seen, but I randomly, growing up, had the vinyl of the soundtrack.

Because I got into the garage sale. And so I had the like imagery burned in my brain. I bought it. Rock and roll. Yeah.

What a cool soundtrack. It's like, it's a real kind of thing. Kathy Nelson is my best friend to this day. And she did more soundtrack album. You should have one on the show.

I would love to. Oh yeah, you should. She did more soundtrack albums than anybody else in the world.

“You should look at, started with Ripley Mann and Beverly Hills Cobb.”

And it would top gun. Oh, legend. Every time I mention a movie tour, she goes, oh yeah, I did soundtrack. Well, this one I love because it's a real, it's a real like punk into glam metal, right? You can see this wall.

It was on the mesh between the two because my brain at that point. Right. I was, I was riding the fence between metal and Paul. Yeah, I can see it's a real shit in the mind. One into declines, two is right there.

Recognizing. Um, and then you do the wings, world. Which. That's my culture. That's my childhood.

That is. That film is burned into my brain. You're knocked out of the park. No one can deny that. It's. One of the best commoners of all time.

Um, very much. See, you, you've done declines to your 1980. You would, I read in an interview that you noticed. It's such an LA thing.

“Like you're always driving around in your car, right?”

And LA. And you saw a line outside the rocks. Is that right? Yeah. And these were not a not, honey, not a line.

It was. People's building out into the street because there were so many people there. To see a metal band, which I have no idea what was because you couldn't see the dance. The marquee, marquee. You know, and I'm like, wait a minute.

All these people have long hair now. So forget about the short haircut with punks. And they're wearing cowboy boots with band Dan as on them. Okay. I got to see what's up.

Yeah. I'm so interested in that because I had. Had it died down a little, right? Like as as the punks seem that you documented in decline one. Which did sort of Peter out, right?

For it like by the mid early 80s. Every generation needs their identity. Totally. And then the next swell. So I guess it would have been very noticeable if you see a throng outside.

There's been the opposite. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And it's, that was the fascism thing I wanted to talk about.

Because we did an episode on Motley Cruise. I really had to like retrain myself. Because again, I came up in the 90s. So we thought that was like the worst shit ever. We were like a lot of bullshit, too.

Yeah. But then you know, you go back and you're like, listen, like the near doll started this thing.

“You know, a lot of the hair metal bands were rooted in some punk, you know?”

Like, Duff McCaigan was in punk bands in Seattle. Blacky Lawless is a very punk person. I feel like spiritually. Like he's so cool. And so like, kind of lives outside of the,

Did you have a different lens on it because you weren't part of it. The way you felt more connected to punk. Well, I think my soul rests in punk rock, right? You know, just in terms of the standards and ethics and philosophies, you know?

I always felt uncomfortable in the metal scene.

I was a lot older than, well, for all the guys in the scene,

they like really under, I mean, not under, but young girls. Okay, sometimes I'm ready. And I was older. I was older by then. And so I just, I felt a bit like an outsider.

I did like the bands, though, you know? Yeah, there's some great music. Yeah.

“And I think poison is hilarious and decline, too.”

They're so funny. I mean, the whole thing is very tonally, it's so funny. It is funny. And you know what, it wouldn't have probably been that funny. If it wasn't for the two producers who kept his Jonathan Dayton and Valerie Ferris

that Miles Copeland hired, that, um, or actually Paul Collinsman, that worked for Miles. I don't want to get that wrong.

But it wouldn't have been as frivolous as it was.

If it wasn't for them and Paul because they were fascinated with the, um, the melding of the female male look that happened back then. And everybody was like, you got to get these guys that looked like girls to be in the movie. And all of a sudden, so that's funny to start with, you know, because they, they weren't really transgender.

They were actually kind of like, they were violently heterosexual. Yeah. But they were dressing and looking like that. Because they were after such young girls that they figured, if I look like a girl, I won't be as intimidating as I really am.

Yeah. So they all dressed up like girls so they could get light. Yeah. It's literally like how vapes came in like pineapple flavor for children. Like it's really like what a good comparison.

Like it's like a kiss more makeup because they were like cartoon characters. Like they wanted to appeal to kids. Yeah. And then you get to the glam metal. It's also very interesting because they're clowns, right?

That's clown makeup. You know, when they're funny, you know, it's baked in that they're, they're doing theater and because of Vaudeville almost in this. That guy Tommy Tutone and declined to. Yeah.

This one at the time was this six foot five dude that looked exactly like. Blacky law that's except he was better looking. But I'm sorry. That's terrible. We love and respect.

Blacky lawless on this program. This guy was coming on to me or something. This Tommy Tutone kid. And Simon picked him up in the whiskey. Whiskey go go.

He picked him up by his hair and he was walking through the crowd with this guy. Who would Tommy do don't buy the hair? That was so funny.

“I mean, I think the irony of the, that scene is that you have to be quite beautiful of a person to pull that out.”

Is it quite? Yes. Like if you look at Motley crew, like. Vince Neil fell off a little bit obviously quite quickly. But they were gorgeous.

Like Nikki six is bone structure, Tommy Lee. These were beautiful. Do you want to know where the Motley crew look came from? Please. It's a guy named John James.

He was in a band called the Joneses. John was my boyfriend for six years. John is the one with a sticky up hair. And that whole Motley crew look. That's where the, the look came from.

That's so funny. I was looking down on the street and people would yell out Motley crew and I look at John and go, what are they talking about? Because I didn't know who Motley crew was at the time. But it was because John and Nikki were heroin buddies. Oh my god.

That's so funny. And I know part of it also came from the near dolls.

And I, and I always found that so interesting because the near dolls did it because the Ronettes.

“Which I think is, it's such a cool trickle down, right?”

They wanted to look at the Ronettes. Is that right? Yeah. They took it off the Ronettes. They were obsessed with the Ronettes.

So that's why they had the big hair. Oh wow. I didn't know that. And then Nikki's, the two black lines. Because he played football in high school.

That's hard. Because a jock. I mean, a lot of these guys were, that's where it gets interesting, right? It's like punk gave way. Back to jock.

Almost back to popular guys. You know, who just wanted to get girls and drink beer. Yeah. And it was funny. And you said it's partially because of your producers.

Partly, I think it's inherently funny. Okay. So you already said you asked guns and roses. And they said no. Well, that's the last minute of the day before we were going to shoot.

Their manager, Ellen Niven.

And he said.

He called me up afterwards.

He goes, no, I'm going to pull him out. We're not going to do it. Because he knew they were going to break. Right. And get big.

And so that the managers don't want to take a chance. Sure. Right. When they're going to break out. So that's why he pulled them.

I mean, you got some huge names. So, yeah. But not to perform. Right. Right.

I mean, except Mega Death was, I mean, that was my idea to bring Mega Death in. Because I needed something serious to end that movie with. Yeah. I didn't want it all to be bubble gum and bullshit. Right.

And it does end really well. Because Dave Mustang is actually so well spoken. Yeah. And so like what he says is so serious. Exactly.

Can you tell me a little bit about a thing that I was obsessed with that you do in all three declines. Is that you put a anti-figure.

In the first decline, I guess it would have been that old couple.

Yeah. Right. And in the second decline, it's a police officer. Yeah. It was this to sort of like reinforce that this was like a subculture.

Like that this was going against the grain. Well, yes. And I didn't want it all to be one sided. And I also, we also wanted to show what the rest of the world felt like about these subject matters. Right.

Yeah. I think it was really effective. Before we move on from decline to, I want to talk about the two most iconic things. Obviously, Chris Holmes from Wasp. Wasted in the pool with his mother.

I read that you said that when you filmed it, you thought it was like you would have to throw that away. Yeah. Isn't that weird? Yeah.

I took Jeff, what the hell is this name?

Cameron Mann, Zimmerman, Jeff Zimmerman behind a tree in the yard. We were shooting at Miles Copeland's house, by the way. That was his pool. That was his pool. Great.

And I take Zimmerman over there. And I'm like, dude, we don't got it. We're going to have to figure out how to shoot it again. Because this guy just fucked up and we don't have it. And then I went to the producers.

And I said, I need to shoot that over. And they said, we don't have the money to figure it out. So I cut the scene together. Turns out to be the most iconic scene in all three declines. Excuse me, that him and Darby and Darby.

Yeah, with the in, by the way, I'm sure you know this by now, but that that was not his house. That was Tony the Hustler's house. I don't think Darby had a house back there.

“No, I think he was living either still with his mom or with one of those girls.”

Yeah. But was it your idea to have Chris Holmes's mother there? Yeah, because that's all that's in. That that tall dude that helped Tommy to tone up. Yeah. He was friends with Chris.

Yeah. And so I was Chris Holmes. And so he said, I said, I want to go. I asked Blacky to be in decline too. And he's too cool.

You can't do it. Okay, fine. So I'll just go to Chris. Yeah. I knew Simon knew Chris.

And we went over to Chris's house where he lived with his mom. We went to the to the back room where he's got his Harley inside the house. And, you know, Drinks and beers, shots him to Kila and smokes him cigarettes. And don't tell anyone. And I asked him if he would be in the movie.

And I met Sandy his mom at the time. And I liked how she was so, you know, indifferent to. Right. Like, they're bikers. There's a whole family of bikers.

Wow.

“So it's like, well, that's just the way life is, you know?”

And that's what she looks like at the side of the pool. Oh, it's, I mean, that's your genius. I think was putting the mother there because that's for me what makes the scene so impactful. Because she's just kind of like rolling her eyes. And when he says have some, have some drink mom.

And she's like, okay. Like, it's, but then she looks like any old regular mom. So she gives him some sideways looks. For sure, one time. When he is talking about like, I bring four girls to the hotel room every night.

And he goes, what do you think about, oh, I think you asked. Actually, you said, what do you think about that, Sandy? And she goes, I don't think about it. Yeah. It's great.

Okay. And the second one. Thank you. I don't know. I mean, I just did it because I'm still trying to figure my own mom out.

I guess. I thought that really drove it home for me. Because otherwise, it would have been just a little bit of like a boring sad.

“I believe Drunk guy in the pool talking about.”

I was just, yeah. Screw it up. It was water, you know.

But vodka is the same color as water, which I know.

Because when I was a kid, I used to pour my mom's vodka out. Who amongst us didn't do that. But water. Yeah. So they wouldn't get so drunk.

Oh, I didn't do that. I would do it so I could steal the vodka for myself. Oh, my parents were not big drinks. Shit. I didn't think of that.

That was funny. Anyway. Okay. And then the Aussie Osbourne scene, which has been much, you know, meamed and clipped and people love it.

But I read and tell me if this is right. That the orange just seemed where he spills it. That was put in after the fact. And he didn't actually spill it.

“And if that's true, did you, was that something you asked them if you could do that?”

I confess. It was fake. Right. Here's what happened. We shot the scene.

And I noticed while we were rolling that Aussie said, we used to cook all kinds of stuff.

With a smoke pot and volume and blah, blah, blah. While he said that, I noticed he was pouring the orange juice. So when we were done with the interview, Sharon and Aussie went in the other room. And we had given him the bathrobe to wear. And so I think giving that bathrobe back is I put it on some grippers.

Somebody working on the film and I'm like, could you just pour the orange juice and spill it? And that's when I cut that in. And it got a great loud. Yeah, it's very funny. Did they get mad?

Sharon and Aussie? Yeah. [laughs] They don't get mad about stuff like that. Well, I'm just curious.

It's very funny. No, I know what you mean. They didn't get mad. No, Sharon is showbiz incorporated. Okay.

She knows that shit like that happens. Yeah. Yeah.

“I did a movie after because I was friends with Sharon and Aussie before I did decline too.”

Yeah. Well, you did the Auss Fest documentary. The much storied, which has not come out. Yeah, but it has not come out, right? Oh, God, here.

You want to see me cry now. We sold our souls for rock and roll. Yeah. That's what it's like. That's what it's like.

We're sharing an Aussie.

Never came out because they couldn't clear the music.

And I did the movie because I, the producer, Scott Wilder, I asked him, "Go ask him, go ask Sharon or all the rights clear." And the answer was, they're clear because Sharon includes that with the bands. When they sign up for Aussie. Sign up for the tour.

Yeah. And then when they told me that it wasn't clear, I talked to Laura and he said, "No, no. Sharon doesn't do contracts with the bands." Because she wants a firearm if she wants to.

Yeah, because what a great lineup. Slayer, deftone, system of it down. The only version that is available is some crappy version on YouTube. Right. But let me tell you something.

This movie is gorgeous. It's beautiful. We showed it at the Motion Picture Academy a couple of years ago at the museum. Thousands of people. Oh, my God.

And it was, I wish you would have been there. Amazing. We got to go this out here, you guys. There's a lot said about how Declined to came out just right as hair metal dies.

We're, you know, Grunge came in and killed it. Right. Somebody said, "I killed you." Yeah. It was going to happen.

Is that what you're going to ask for? Yeah, well, because I was very surprised. But I was like, "I'm sorry.

“Like, I think hair metal was going to die anyways."”

But like, apparently Dave Mistane said it in a book. Oh, did he? Yeah. I couldn't find the book. It's called Hellbent for leather.

Um, but he said it in the H1 documentary called "Heavy the Story of Heavy Metal" says it. Okay. And it's like, well, what is the claim that they looked like such ridiculous clowns? People didn't want to fuck with them anymore.

Like, I don't know if that is enough to kill an entire genre. If I kill hair metal with the decline part two. Right. I think I deserve a word. I agree.

I agree. Honestly. No, you know, for them, if I was a dude, they wouldn't blame it on me. Okay. I'm a woman.

So, I get blamed for shit. It's also like, I think people forget exactly what you've said. Every generation needs their own thing. And it is a bit of a pendulum, right? Yeah.

And so, there was too much excess. There was too much misogyny. Of course, it's going to go back. And, you know, I have a theory about Grunge. Is that, you know, a lot of these Grunge front men were raised by single mothers.

You know, and that's why they're more feminist and more, you know, they, this is something

And they also, they also revere punk, the original punk, like kind of in the way that, like, it was a different set of ethos.

“And they didn't want these, these hair metal type guys with the guys that beat them up, you know?”

So, they were going to come and sort of oust that. I was right. And they did. Yeah, there'd be fights in the parking lot. Yeah.

Stuff like that. I have a theory that Grunge was born out of a reaction to punk, because punk, your anger and your aggression sort of was outward. Right. Grunge, it was inward.

You know, it was like, oh, poor me. I mean, I'm so miserable and it's cool to be miserable, it's show like that.

You know, it was like, to me, I was never into Grunge because I like it when, you know,

it's more outward. If you're going to be pissed, be pissed. Right. You like an outward expression. Because you can't be pissed and depressed at the same time.

It's the same emotion. Yeah. But it's just directed different ways.

“Yeah, depression is, it's my therapist always has a depression as anger directed.”

Same thing. Same thing. Yeah. Well, as a Grunge girl, I respect your opinion, but I love it. You love Grunge.

I was born in 1982. Yeah. I was 11 years old when. Yeah. My boyfriend.

I still remember the day. Yeah.

He's always playing that Grunge stuff.

You know, and I'm like, oh, the one I liked was Temple of the Dog. Okay. Yeah. That's my boy. Same.

I mean, and also, you know, sound garden is very directly rooted in, as ST bands, black flag, you know, 100%. I mean, they have. And then also in the drop detuning from Tony, I owe me from Black Sabbath. It's like what gives a lot of Grunge, not Nirvana, but the other ones they're sound.

You know, so they do have interesting roots. Anyway, we don't have that. Tweetie little details about Tony's tuning. Huh. Okay.

So you did Wayne's world. I mean, we need to remind people you were nominated for a Grammy for the music video. The Bohemian Rhapsody.

I watched that just that scene again this morning.

Just pure. Just pure perfection. The b-roll. The choreography of the head banging. The drunk picking up the drunk guy and sticking him in the middle.

It's just perfect. It's perfect. You know where it came from? Tell me. It came from a movie I did called "Dudes" with John Cryer and Flea.

Right. And I did a scene in a Volkswagen bug with John driving and Flea in the shotgun seat. And they're doing Havanegila and head banging. Havanegila. You know, I thought totally and it was, it worked, you know, and I knew if I knew it was funny.

And so when we started shooting it, Mike was going, this isn't funny. And it hurts my neck. I'm like, trust me, it's going to work. And then guess what? I mean, it worked.

And now it's just the classic thing.

“And what do you think that James Court of whatever is totally carpool karaoke?”

Where did that come from? Same thing. You know, do I get credit for that? No. Thank you Albert.

It's one of the most genius scenes of music in any film, I think. It's funny. It matches the song so well. It's just perfect. Well, thank you.

You have people like it. You did this movie. And then like you said, you have all these scripts that were not comedies. But people wanted you to do black sheep or Beverly Hillbillies, which you did. Black sheep.

And the little rascals. So what would you have wanted to do? Like, let's say you were afforded the opportunities to do whatever you wanted. And after one's world, what would that have looked like? What kind of films would those have been?

If I could have done the films, I really wanted to do. And that are sitting in my file cabinet still. I would have done social comment, you know, sort of studies about toxic waste. And a band and children and so many different topics. Not necessarily political, because I shy away from making political statements.

You know, leave that to the masses. But I would have done films that I like to make a comment about helping people and learning and bettering our culture and also our social situation. Narrative. Narrative.

Yeah. Right.

You know? That A is tragic, but B makes a lot of sense to me because then you made the decline three. Which I have to say, and there's no best, like you said, it's like picking my children. But the decline three to me is the most point yet. It is the most affecting.

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. And I believe the same thing. It's so, I mean, it's everything that you talked about from the beginning of what you

were interested in, the psychology, understanding your own childhood, understanding trauma, understanding what having a fucked up childhood does is all in there.

“And it's, I think people misremember it as this like funny, you know, all look at the funny gutter punks.”

But people didn't see it. Yeah. It's just crazy. No. It's the way my life is.

People didn't see the first decline either.

There will be some data that there will be. Decline three will be appreciated. I didn't know I was making a movie about homeless kids. Look at homeless now. I know.

Look at where we stand now. It's really 30 years later. Because you do something. You do a real magic trick with that one where you, you get people in in the beginning with like, because all of these kids are very charismatic and charming and funny.

And you get them in with like, wow, look at their so intriguing and they look crazy and they're make jokes. And you slowly reveal one gut punch after another. Like, when you, oh my God, I'm sorry. I'm going to cry.

But when you're interviewing Darius, who's been in the film the whole time. And this is like, we're more than halfway through the film. And he's talking about the car accident. And that's the first time that you pan back to show that he's in a wheelchair. And you don't know that until then.

That broke my heart. I mean, I didn't watch this before. I just didn't remember these details. And the fire. Well, for you to notice that I did that as a reveal.

Yeah. We call it with Darius in the wheelchair.

“Is extremely astute of you and makes me think that you need to be a filmmaker.”

Not kidding. You're good. You're good. You could be good. I'm going to cry, but I'll just not.

Oh. I got plenty of resources. I actually did dream of making films.

Again, I always say to the camera.

Anyone's listening and wants to finance a bio. Pick about the slits. That's my, um. Oh, you might have a project. No, I'm a girl band.

Yeah, I know. Well, I just find that I find their story really interesting. So send your money to that blog. Here's the page. Go ahead and send it right to my bank account.

I think it's such an incredible document. Which, again, like you, you have a knack for this. Of the end of the 90s. That kind of world doesn't really exist anymore, right? And I'm not saying there's not homeless children and there's not abuse children.

Of course. There's always time. But this sort of like gutter punk subculture on the streets. Like I remember, this is not 98, right?

“So I remember, you know, I would have been 14 or something.”

And having my cousins older friends. They weren't gutter punks. They weren't on the streets. But they were like subhumans patch, mohawk, showing me about bands.

And we would go to Melrose and see these crusties and gutter punks. They're out there with their dogs. Yeah, spanging. Exactly.

Like taking photos with tourists, that sent me. They were like spider-man and a gutter punk. We could get a photo. Yeah. And then give me a dollar.

Yeah. And I might be wrong.

And I'm happy always to be corrected.

But like it really felt to me the end of an era of like, it's pre, you know, we don't have smartphones. It's, you know, I've mentioned. Well, you're right because that's really when the internet kicked in. And that's an internet for some reason.

We're in a whole transition. Transition stage right now. Still 26, 27 years later. Yeah. You know, absorbing this gigantic technology change.

Totally. And you know, it's almost like everybody's identity is lost. Yeah. And even though it was so sad because it is. It's sad and it's tragic.

But like the beautiful thing about decline three is that. This is a family and community. These kids found each other. That's right. And they take care of each other.

Yeah. And they're on the streets together and they're looking out for each other. And they, you know, one gets an apartment. They all crash there. Mm-hmm.

Then they all get kicked out. And then they all get kicked out. And they're squatting. It's like, where'd you get you? What happened to your parking?

Or what happened to your ticket? Because I get a ticket for crossing the street wrong or something. You know, I ate it. You know, who's going to have a shit? Who's going to find them?

How? I mean, now. But now they would. Now there's like everything's surveillance society. Yeah.

It's pretty impossible to even live like that if you wanted to.

Now, of course, we still have on house people. But like, I walk around Hollywood. I walk down Melrose. I don't see any crustace. No, but you better have somebody with you because it's not safe.

No. But yeah, if you guys don't want to decline three, if that can be my like, partying words for this. I mean, it was like, please watch decline three. It is.

That's not, that's my fill my most proud of.

“I think you nailed it because you really in in a not heavy handed super subtle way.”

Slowly show how these kids had no other choice. You know, that how they were pushed to live on the friend Joseph's society by these really fucked up circumstances. Parents that were abusive parents that were meth heads. You know, so many things.

And then the tragedy within the film, you know, the fire. Stevie dying. And then we don't have to talk about it. The up, you know, the murder that happens after the film of one of the main.

The main kids and by one of the other, you know, featured players.

Well, if you, if, if you and a lot of the incidents interested in understanding that time, yeah, I would be so happy if people watch that film because I think it's an education. And it would help kids to watch it. Very great.

“And especially I think if you can watch it and compare it in your mind to what was happening on”

MTV and like in pop culture teenage them and how divorced those two things were separated totally. Yeah. Yeah. That'll be this has been honestly such an honour and a pleasure. I'm so happy that you came.

I really, sorry. I had so many questions. I've just, your work has been really important to me. I was so, I don't like to do on camera interviews, you know. And I was so nervous.

My assistant Ripley knows. I was like, I didn't, I can't do this. No. But you made it so nice and easy.

“And I wish this table wasn't so big because I would give you a big hug right now.”

Well, we can have a big hug right after. Oh, there. And I hope you guys know this chick is the bomb. Okay. And I'll be thank you so much.

I gotta put my shades back on because I'm crying. No. Okay. Yeah. Thank you.

Thank you. Come back next week for a new episode of band playing. I'll second that. If you liked what you heard today, subscribe for more episodes of band playing. Our guests today were Alex Ross Perry and Penelope Spiris.

This episode was produced by Rob Sunderman and edited by Adrian Bridges, with help from Justin Sales. Video production by Bell Roman. Executive producers for band playing are Gina Delvec and me, Yassie Solic. Our gorgeous and catchy theme song was composed and performed by Bethany Cossain Tino and Jennifer Clevin.

And graciously recorded by Carlos Dillegarza and Los Angeles, California. Special thanks to our producer and Meredith Producer Dylan, aka Dylan Tupper Rupert, and also Sean Venisey and Tuna Fish Sandwich. Come back every Thursday for a new episode of band playing on Spotify or wherever you listen to podcasts. Party on, dude.

Okay. Okay.