Part Two: From Elliott Rodger to Clavicular: The Story of Incel Evolution

- Cool, so media. (clicking) - Ah, welcome back to behind the bastards, a podcast about in cells.

“Or at least, that's what we're talking about this week,”

the pipeline that led us as a society from Elliott Roger and I live this shooting in 2014 to clickicular and the trend of looks maxing, which includes hitting yourself in the face with a hammer to get hotter.

We'll be talking about all of that and explaining the rest of it.

But first, let me reintroduce my wonderful guest

for these episodes, cat abugazella. Cat, welcome to the show. - Robert, thank you so much for having me. - How you doing, cat? Are you running for something?

- A marathon, right? - A marathon, right? - Yeah, there you go, there you go. No, I actually haven't worked out since I launched my congressional campaign, which is what I'm running for.

So, anything beyond the flights of stairs it takes to get to my apartment, wins me. I'm so weak now, but only physically. Mentally and spiritually, we're strong. But yeah, I'm running for Congress

in the District of Illinois. So, if you are in the Chicago area that goes from uptown, up to Evanston over to Skogi, and then all the way to Crystal Lake in Algonquin, Election Day is March 17th.

You can find my website at catfreelinoid.com, that's cat with the K, we are a progressive populist campaign. That's the only one in this race reported by majority, small dollar donations of the three most viable candidates in this race.

I'm the only one that hasn't met with APAC, and I also have an orange cat named Peter. - Yeah. - And if everyone's really good, I'll bring it on camera. - You're also the only person we have ever had

as a guest for this show, who is actively like running for office. This being what it is, it's not a thing we normally do, but you have been a friend for quite some time, and before you started running,

I've always respected your work as a journalist

and as a researcher, and if anyone's going to be in Congress, I would prefer it be you. - Thank you.

“- As we all know, Leipzig was the only way to get out of this.”

The only thing that we do. - Nothing else will fix this. - I thought you were going to say the only guest under federal indictment, and I was like, that can't be--

- No, it should be like the bad morning one. (laughing) - Well, we had Chelsea Manning on the show. I mean, she wasn't actively under an indictment, but-- (laughing)

- Uh, speaking of indictments. - Wow. - Actually, not. There's not really much in the way of indictments as a result of insult stuff,

because they don't need to talk before they commit their crimes. - And you made me nervous at the beginning, 'cause he said behind the bastards, a podcast about insults, which is exactly what I'll get clipped into the Google algorithm,

and people look up what behind the bastards is-- - Classic insult podcast. - That's the main thing. - Maybe I might be able to de-radicalize them this way. - Maybe.

- That might work. - That might work. - Multiple guys who have jacked off my video explainers that were like,

“"I wasn't Nazi, and then your words got through to me."”

- Wow. - You don't need to share that?

- I guess we'll never work.

- 'Cause I'm gonna keep it to yourself, but go off. (laughing) - That's really one of those like, "Okay." I mean-- - Well, that's better than this podcast is about insults.

- Yeah. - Listen to this podcast if you've already insulted. - Right. - If the AI summary of Google does come up saying that I'm gonna die.

(laughing) - Great. - Ah. - This isn't I Heart Podcast. Guarantee to you, man.

- I'm Clayton Nackard, in 2022, I was the lead of ABC's The Bachelor. - But here's the thing. Bachelors fans hated him. - If I could press a button and rewind it all I would.

- That's when his life took a disturbing turn. A one-night stand would end in a courtroom. (upbeat music) - The media is here. This case has gone viral.

The dating contract. - Agreed to date me, but I'm also suing you. - This is unlike anything I've ever seen before. - I'm Stephanie Young. Listen to the love trapped on the I Heart Radio app,

Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. - Next Monday, our 2026 I Heart Podcast Awards are happening live in South by Southwest. - This is the biggest night in podcast thing. - We'll honor the very best in podcasting

from the past year and celebrate the most innovative talent and creators in the industry. - And the winner is... - Creativity, knowledge and passion will all be on full display. - Thank you so much, I Heart Radio.

Thank you to all the other nominees. You guys are awesome. - Watch live next Monday at AP and Eastern 5PM Pacific Free at feeps.com or the Feeps app. - Hey, I'm Jay Shetty, host of the on purpose podcast.

My latest episode is with Hillary Duff, singer, actress, and multi-platelet artist. - You desire in family like this picture. And that's not reality. My sister and I don't speak.

It's definitely a very painful part of my life. And I hope it's not forever, but it's for right now.

on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. - I'm Amanda Knox, and in the new podcast doubt, the case of Lucy Letby, we unpack the story of an unimaginable tragedy

that gripped the UK in 2023. But what if we didn't get the whole story? - It has been made to fit. - The moment you look at the whole picture, the case collapsed.

- What if the truth was disguised by a story we chose to believe?

“- Oh my God, I think she might be innocent.”

- Listen to doubt, the case of Lucy Letby, on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

- So, the first key moment,

if you're kind of like doing the big bullet points of in the cell history, the first key moment would probably be the 2009 founding of PUAHATE.com. The second, and most defining, probably moment, for the subculture was the 2014 mass killing by Elliot Roger.

However, kind of just jumping between those two points, does leave out something very important. It's just, I mean, it's an act of violence that just isn't as famous as what Elliot Roger did. But in 2009, the same year that PUAHATE was founded,

George Sedini, a financial employee at a law firm, opened fire on a woman's fitness class at Jim, and I think this was in New York City. He killed three women and he injured nine other people and then shot himself.

At the time, the Guardian wrote that Sedini, quote, "Capt a web page in which he wrote about years of rejection by women and left behind notes describing

his inability to get a girlfriend."

“So, Sedini wasn't in the strictest sense and in cell, right?”

As far as we know, he wasn't a member of any of the in-cell online communities. That was barely a term, right? This was still the start of 2009, mostly people who had kind of were descendants

from Alana's original in-cell forum, right? This had not PUAHATE had not even really turned into a fully in-cell thing, quite yet. But this is also very clearly still an in-cell killing spree. It's the same set of motivations.

He's blaming what he shooting a anonymous woman. He doesn't know because he's blaming women as a whole for the fact that he hasn't found anyone and isn't happy, right? So, it's very relevant. And in-cells, whether or not Sedini knew the term in-cell,

in-cells that the in-cells that are like gathering and starting to form a community on PUAHATE adopt him as one of their own.

Before Alie at Rogers Killingsbury,

the term going Sedini was in semi-regular use on PUAHATE.com, right? Instead of like, today, they would say going ER to talk about someone who's going to like have a break and go murder a bunch of people

because they're a black-pilled-in-cell. Before Alie at Rogers, they would use the term going Sedini. And a lot of people don't know about this guy. - Just once like correction, it wasn't New York. It was actually a suburb of Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.

- There you go. Pittsburgh, the New York of Pennsylvania. - That's the thing about mass shootings. And it's like, there are a lot of like venn diagrams here of extremism, but almost every mass shooting

in the 21st century has to do with the Great Replacement Theory, which is a white supremacist conspiracy theory that is anti-Semitic, that's its roots, essentially saying that liberals, which is often used as a stand-in for Jews,

are trying to replace the electorate with black and brown people and/or, but usually and blatant misogyny. And that's often also matched with stalking. I say as someone that has had to deal with stalkers

in the past, this is something that so many women deal with. And it's not really talked about. There are very few legal restrictions against it. It is one of the number one indicators for violent crime, for murder, for extremist events.

And it's one of these things like in DC, when I use it getting anti stalking order, you literally have to figure out a way to serve the order to your stalker.

“But it has, you have to find someone in your life”

because the police won't serve it to the person that is stalking you. Yep, yep, it's fucking sick. I can remember during one of like the times when I lectured to a class at the American University

about this kind of stuff. And these are all mostly some of them where people who are going to become journalists, these are mostly people who wanted to go and become like federal law enforcement, right?

It was very young class primarily female. And so I'm talking about like right-wing mass shooters, talking about the tree of life shooting, was a big one at the time, but I'm also talking about some of these in cell killings.

And I specifically bring up someone I knew who was being harassed by a right-wing podcaster who is on. I played audio of him talking to a caller who called into his show who is clearly unwell. And him trying to go to him into attacking

and raping a specific activist, like mentioning her by name, saying where she lives and said, no, no, I think she really wants to date you. I think if you just go up and like grab her and kiss her, or whatever, like she'll be into it.

Like, so I played this for them.

Like, he was insinuating like rape and murder very directly.

I wouldn't even say insinuating. And I played this for them.

“And I'm like, can anyone tell me what law was broken here?”

(laughs) Yeah? 'Cause there's nothing illegal about it. And nothing happened to the guy over that, you know? - That's a serving.

- It's cool. - It's good. - It's so cool. It's so sick. Like the amount of crap, especially like as a woman online,

but especially as someone covering the far right online, I remember I did like a collage after Phil LeBont, who was a tin pool contributor, posted my Tinder profile that he randomly saw 'cause he had like the Tinder premium,

so he could get past my age matters. And it was just like weird to it about like,

sexually enslaving me, raping me.

Like weird stuff about my feet. And like my mom used to get really screwed up about it. And now like after years of doing this, she's just like, that's kind of like, it's good training for running for Congress.

But like, it also, you're so desensitized. I remember talking to a lawyer and having to be like, "Oh yeah, that post where someone said they were gonna throw me into a wood shipper and then masturbate over my remains." Like, yeah.

And you were like, you just said that really normally,

“but that's what women have to deal with.”

- Yeah. And it's this when I hear fucking Tom Homan or whatever, complain about like people saying mean stuff about ice online. Like, brother, the meanest shit I have seen

like the most unhinged and op-sec in cautious leftist. Say about ice. Does not compare to like the most middleing shit my coat, my female co-workers have dealt with on like YouTube comments.

- Well, I have to read this fucking quote to you. This is written by like, I think it's one Chicago cop that pretends he's a bunch of different people on the website called the Chicago Contraryan.

Say literal post that he made recalls me the Wonder Woman of Woke. He also wrote another one that was like really horny about how seductive my voices. But Kat has an dangerous opinion of ice.

This week, while she was a guest on a local podcast, Obligosally-Denigrated ice absurdly. Most of the violence that ice seems to commit on camera, especially the most aggressive and egregious instances are against unarmed women.

And it's because these men are weak, they feel incompetent, they're angry because they're not as big and strong as they'd like to be. They sure look big and strong to me and her sob stories about enduring pepper balls

and being tear gas by ice deserve no sympathy. Obligosally admitted to the host that she openly mocks ice agents at the broad view protest which you're such as this one. Did you get your outfit at spirit Halloween?

Those ice officers are putting their lives on the line every day they report to work. What does this tell you about Kat and how she would conduct herself as a legislator? Like, they can't men are afraid of being mocked,

women are afraid of being murdered. Yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, I wish I had more to add to that. But yeah, just, yep. That's all very tied to this, right?

Because these are, these in cells are the women murders, right? That's what they get famous for doing.

“That's why we just talked about the kind of three key”

early moments in in cell history and two of the three moments are mass killings of women by angry men. And that is, that's the whole reason people know what and cells are, is Elliott Roger.

Pre Elliott Roger, the only people who are aware of the in cell subculture were like really incredibly online weirdos and this was even to the point like there were not in 2014, nearly as many people who were like extremism researchers

in digital communities. I was kind of tangentially aware of PLA hate.com because I was interested in like the pickup artist community and those weirdos. So I was aware that there were like people who were radical

and very like massogynistic and angry that pickup artistry hadn't worked for them. But I don't think, I think probably 99% of people

learned about in cells for the first time

because of Elliott Roger's like, sprinkling, right? - Right. - Yeah, and you get to remember too. That's earlier in 2014. Gamergate doesn't start until August of 2014.

So for the public, even the idea that there were huge organized groups of men online who just wanted to harass and do violence to random women they don't know. That was not common knowledge.

If you were a woman who made stuff for the internet, you were aware of aspects of this certainly. But a lot of this becomes really clear to people for the first time because Elliott Roger doesn't just kill a bunch of people.

But before he does it, he posts his 141 page manifesto on pua-hate.com immediately before he starts his rampage. And I've had to read this thing several times over the years. I mean, I've reported on aspects of that abvention. I hate having to quote from it.

But it is integral. It's like a foundational document for the insult subculture. And the whole thing is written, if I had to describe like the tone of the prose,

Elliott Roger wrote like the villain from a Saturday morning cartoon or a really badly written anime. Here's the opening lines of his manifesto.

has been that the hands of humanity, particularly women.

It has made me realize just how brutal and twisted humanity is as a species. All I ever wanted was to fit in and live a happy life amongst humanity. But I was cast out and rejected,

forced to endure an existence of loneliness and significance, all because the females of the human species were incapable of seeing the value in me. And that's almost a perfect one paragraph summary

“for black-pilled in cell ideology as a whole, right?”

That's all of it, pretty much, right there. Yep. Yep. Yeah, I had friends that were at UCSB at the time and it changed their lives forever.

Yeah, yeah, of course. It's fucking horrifying. It's horrific. And one of the things that kind of frustrated me 'cause this happens, I catch myself off.

I read the manifesto.

And I noticed that a lot of normal people's reaction

to the shootings and the videos, Roger Posted, 'cause he didn't just post a manifesto on phoa.com. He also posts like a video manifesto on YouTube before his spree and he had a bunch of videos. He'd been posting videos for months or years beforehand.

And people were shocked when they see them because they're like, wait, but this guy's like an in cell, which are like weird nerds who can't get dates. But he's like a reasonably good-looking guy. That doesn't make any sense.

And then they find out his dad was rich, his dad's like a producer in Hollywood, so his family's got money. So I see a lot of responses being like, well, why is this guy an in cell?

You see a picture, if you haven't seen one of Elliot Roger, we'll have one up on the screen right now. But like, he's not like, you wouldn't think twice seeing this guy in that particular.

“And like particular, he looks a little like with a killer, right?”

Like he's not a bad-looking guy, he's like, but he's certainly not someone you would like notice. Whereas prior to this, if you would ask someone like for the stereotype of a basement dwelling, in cell version or whatever, which was an insult,

people made about people who were too online, right? I'm not saying that's a good thing to call something. There's nothing wrong with being a virgin or whatever. There's nothing wrong with not having sex. But those were terms people used.

They were confused by the fact that he seemed to look pretty normal and they didn't expect that. And I think that's evidence of one of the biggest shortcomings with a lot of early coverage of in cells,

which is that coverage did not emphasize enough. This is not a community for guys who just can't get a date and who just aren't very social. This is a community for men who have constructed an ideology that tells them it is mathematically impossible

for them to find love. And that fact makes some of them homicidal, right? That is a really key aspect of what's going on here is how delusional it is. Elliott seems to as far as we can tell,

“you know, based on what we know from people”

who, you know, interviews people who knew him and from his own writings, he's had a lot of trouble connecting with people from a young age. His father is very successful

and Elliott grows obsessed with the trappings of wealth and fame.

He will, on his videos, I'll always point out

his nice watch, his nice clothes. He's driving like a nice new car because he thinks that having these things are all you need. If you're wearing nice clothes and you have a nice car and you look like you have money,

women should just come up to you and tell you they want to be with you, right? That's how it's supposed to work. And he doesn't put anymore work to it than that. Like he dresses up and he'll show up at bars

and clubs and parties and stuff and he'll just stand in a corner and not talk to anybody. And he feels like something is wrong because based on his understanding of the world,

all he should need to do is be rich and good looking. And the fact that that isn't enough is what starts him spirally, right? - Can I just interrupt here on those tickets? So, like so much of this,

I know I just keep being like sexism, like obviously yes, they're in cells but so much of this is just putting the burden on women. Like you want women to come up to you. You want women to immediately like you.

You want women to do X, Y and Z. Like when people are like the male loneliness epidemic is like when people talk to me about it, I'm like, what are you doing to connect with the men in your life?

- Yeah. - I mean, we have a lot of young male volunteers and I don't think it's because they're, like it's because we give community. And I remember asking in our discord,

we go to spaces where they are like discord and being like, hey, does anyone want to help us build some shelves and we had like eight dudes all under 30, show up and help us build shelves and they barely talk to me.

They all just build shelves together and then they're all still volunteers to this day. - It's awesome. - There's just like, yeah, but there's so much of it that's like we tell men that they're only worth

is what they can provide and how they can project strength and then we punish vulnerability. And we say we took away all the ability to be able to provide.

You're gonna be stuck with student debt.

You are able to even afford to get married or to have a family and then people like Steve Bannon were able to capitalize on that in these online spaces and now by saying like, look, it's because of brown people or black people or women, usually women.

And it's just so fucked up how every single part of in cell ideology puts the onus on the woman. It's the woman's responsibility to find you attractive. It's the woman's responsibility to come up to you. It's the woman's responsibility to make your dick feel good.

It's the woman's responsibility to blah, blah, blah, blah. With absolutely zero responsibility for yourself. - That's the fucking thing that is most toxic.

“I think about it and also it most explains most”

which go at what's going on because I think back to when I was a young man when I was like a teenager, like I was a huge nerd who spent all this time online, I wasn't good at talking to women. Like I had trouble getting dates

and I could have I think if I'd come across different people and follow in a different communities, wound up in a much darker place. And I got lucky enough that I've talked about this before through like World of Warcraft,

I made friends online with a bunch of like women in their 20s and 30s who, and this is key, it's not just that like there were women who were friends with me when I said something fucked up because I was like a 17 year old boy in 2005.

They would call me out on it and part of my responsibility was that I listened to them. It was my responsibility to listen to what they were saying and make changes to myself based on the feedback. Once people say, "Hey, that's bad."

Hey, saying that's messed up. Hey, doing that makes people not feel comfortable around you. I changed the way I behaved because that's like, and I have to be supposed to grow a person. I have not experienced all the time and sometimes it's in the sense

where they listen, they hear, they take accountability and sometimes it's not. And it's trending more towards not lately. And especially on the internet, and I just think that we really need to start listening to women.

- Really? - It's patriarchy at its worst and it's like very indicative of the modern conservative movements, frankly, where it's like this persecution complex that is inherent because other people are getting equality

or because there are material conditions that the ultra wealthy have made worse. And you need someone to blame instead of taking responsibility for yourself. And if you are already, especially like a white,

heterosexual, cisgender man, it is a lot easier to just blame it on someone else again.

“- Yeah, I think the thing that is most frustrating to me”

is that lack of any sort of personal accountability, right? - It has to be able to take you as a man. And that was so weird to me, it's like I was raised with some pretty toxic attitudes about masculinity, about like a man's responsibility.

- Sure.

- But it was never taught.

I was always taught that it is important that you listen to other people when they tell you, hey, that made me feel uncomfortable or hey, that made me feel bad. And alter your behavior 'cause it's bad

to make people feel uncomfortable. And if someone tells you that you fucked up and you need to look at yourself and take changes, right? - We're sure, and I've had many.

- I don't understand how that is just not a thing for so many people. - For so many people? - I was just saying, I've had so many interactions where it's like, I take into account

that maybe they don't know better.

“And so when somebody says something that's inappropriate”

but I don't think, I even give them like but if I did out where you're like, hey, I just want you to know, I don't think you meant it in this way, but the wording you used made me an XYZ feel uncomfortable.

I think you should really think about how you're choosing to use words so that you're not coming across this way. And it's like, that's nice, that's normal. If somebody said that to me, I've been like, oh shit,

you're right. I didn't fucking mean it that way. My bad and learn from it. But so many people, if you say that to them instead of them being like, oh shit.

They're like, fuck you bitch and it's crazy. But it's so common. I mean, I think a lot of it, as someone that was born in '99, like other Gen Z, a lot of it comes from

like the complete elimination of third spaces.

Like you just don't interact with people anymore. We don't like, I wasn't allowed to play in the front yard because my dad was worried I'd get kidnapped, which definitely wasn't gonna happen. And so there's just like all of this distance.

And so I spent a lot of my middle high school time like on the internet, like pre-yahoo tumbler. I made so many friends there. And for me, the space that I was in actually opened my eyes to a lot of things

that were different from like my conservative upbringing, but it's not the same for others. And if you end up in these spaces and I'm sure I know we're gonna go into algorithms later,

that you get into these toxic spaces,

then those are the people that are shaping who you are and what you're thinking if that's the only experience you get 'cause you're not doing anything in person anymore. - Yep, yeah, yeah. - And my God.

- True. - And my God is it okay to say that you messed up and learn from something and change. - Yeah. - And work on yourself and evolve. - How can you understand stuff like how working out works, right?

Which is like you try to do something and it's too hard for you. So you like make changes and build up steps until you can do the thing that you previously couldn't do. How can you understand that about like lifting weights,

but not that like, well, everything kind of works that way. Like you need to be evaluating yourself and how you are influencing and impacting people and how people are responding to you

and if you're like making people uncomfortable

“or sad or scared or you need to like change.”

Like, so that... - Yeah, I don't get the diss. Yeah, anyway, but we've talked enough about this. I think we've gotten the point across. Back to Elliot Roger. - Yeah.

- So when he wrote about his experiences in college, like he gets to college and he's very clear from his writing about college, he's not interested in learning anything. He's not even interested in having a social life

in the traditional sense. He's only interested in the girls at college and his only thought at all times is that they are not having sex with or dating him, right? Like that's his whole college experience.

He's being frustrated that he's surrounded by young women who are not interested in him. Like, and this is all of college to him. There's no other point to being there. Quote, in my history class, I had a crush

on a really pretty girl, only to find out that she had a boyfriend. And in my psychology class, there was this group of popular kids who acted obnoxious the whole time.

“One of them was a very pretty blonde girl.”

And she actually enjoyed associating with the obnoxious boys in her click, the injustice. I hated them all. And yeah, that's like the inability to see that like, okay, yeah, you think they're obnoxious,

but like, they're having fun. Like, maybe she just likes having fun with these guys who aren't like weirdly staring at her from the corner and clearly furious at all times. Or maybe you thought they were obnoxious

and they've actually weren't. - Yeah, or maybe they're just being a dick. - Part of why they have similar hobbies. - Making friends or getting a date is that like, any time he sees a woman

he finds attractive at school or out in public, he's driven into visible fits of rage. Like, this is a guy who is upsetting to be around because you can tell he's like one step away from committing violence.

Any time he sees a girl with another guy. He wrote about one time when he went to lunch with his dad and flipped out after seeing a mixed race couple. The sight of them enraged me to no end,

“especially because it was a dark skin to Mexican guy”

dating a hot blonde white girl. I regarded that as a great insult to my dignity. How could an inferior Mexican guy be able to date a white blonde girl while I was still suffering as a lonely virgin? I was ashamed to be in such an inferior position

in front of my father. When I saw the two of them kissing, I could barely contain my rage. I stood up in anger and I was about to walk up to them and poor my glass of soda all over their heads.

I probably would have if father wasn't there. Just every red flag, they're could possibly be. And you see, that's the result of this weird lookism, race, science, stuff, it's like, well, but it's impossible for a blonde girl to love a Mexican man.

And I am wider than he is, I should be in line before he, like, these weird, they've created the system of physics about how relationships work. And the fact that it does not reflect reality at all

is part of what drives these people mad. Not like a clinical sense. I'm being, you know, it's a euphemism, but like that. Yeah, speaking of Elliot Rogers' dad, probably not. Here's, hmm, stop with stuff.

There's ads anyway, that was a failure. Didn't like it. Kind of like Elliot Rogers' dad. Yeah. I'm Clayton Eckard and in 2022, I was the lead of ABC's The Bachelors.

Unfortunately, it didn't go according to plan.

He became the first bachelor to ever have his final rose rejected.

The internet turned on him. If I could press a button and rewind it, all I would. But what happened to Clayton after the show made even bigger headlines? It began as a one night stand and ended in a courtroom

with Clayton at the center of a very strange paternity scandal. The media is here. This case has gone viral. The dating contract. Agreed to date me, but I'm also suing you.

We're in search for it. This is unlike anything I've ever seen before. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trapped. This season, an epic battle of he said she said,

and the search for accountability in a sea of lies. I have done nothing to get broken by the (beep)

Listen to Love Trapped on the I-Heart Radio App, Apple Podcasts,

or wherever you get your podcasts.

“Next Monday, our 2026 I-Heart Podcast Awards”

are happening live in South by Southwest. This is the biggest night in the podcast thing. We'll honor the very best in podcasting from the past year and celebrate the most innovative talent and creators in the industry.

And the winner is... Creativity, knowledge and passion. We'll all be on full display. Thank you so much. I-Heart Radio.

Thank you to all the other nominees. You guys are awesome. Watch live next Monday at 8 p.m. Eastern 5 p.m. Pacific Free. Itfeeps.com or The Veeps app. I'm Nancy Glass, host of the burden of guilt season two podcast.

This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpride became the victim of a random crime. He pulls the gun.

It tells me to lie down on the ground. He identified Germaine Hudson as the perpetrator. Germaine was sentenced to 99 years. I'm like, "Lord, this can't be real. I thought it was a mistaken identity."

The best lie is partial truth. For 22 years, only two people knew the truth. Until a confession changed everything. It was a monster. Listen to burden of guilt season two on the I-Heart Radio app.

Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, I'm Jay Shetty, host of the on-purpose podcast. My latest episode is with Hillary Duff, singer, actress, and multi-plattener artists. Hillary opens up about complicated family dynamics,

motherhood, and releasing our first record in over 10 years.

We talk about what it's taken to grow up in the entertainment industry and stay grounded through every chapter. It's a raw and honest conversation about identity, evolution, and building a life that truly matters. You desire in family like this picture,

and that's not reality a lot of the time it's for people. My sister and I don't speak. It's definitely a very painful part of my life. And I hope it's not forever, but it's for right now. Listen to on-purpose, with Jay Shetty on the I-Heart Radio app.

Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. So, we're back. As should be obvious from that last quote, his parents are aware that something is wrong. Like his dad sees him like overcome with rage

to the point of trying to like physically a cost a couple for kissing. But they don't, they also, like, they're not good parents. They don't spend a lot of time with their kids.

“They're certainly not spending a lot of time communicating honestly”

with Elliot. And in fact, when his dad sees this and is like, "Oh, my son might be on the verge of doing something crazy in violent." His solution is to give Elliot Roger a copy of the secret. Oh, my gosh.

That's great parents in that herd. Incredible stuff.

Now, the core of the secret is what's called the law of attraction.

This is the pseudoscientific belief that by thinking and stating your intentions, you can literally make things happen because your thoughts magically shape the nature of reality. Elliot is initially drawn to this idea

and immediately declares, "I'm going to become a millionaire." Quote, "So I could live a luxurious life and finally be able to attract the beautiful girls I covet so much. I wish to make up for the years of youth that I wasted and bleak loneliness."

And by doing so, I would get revenge on everyone who thought they were better than me, just by becoming better than them for the accumulation of wealth.

“I believe that the only way for me to attain this wealth”

at the time was to win the lottery, and that is what I visualized doing. Yeah. I know this is a point, but he's such a bad writer. Such a bad writer, and he's such it just dummy.

I don't want to spend more time on him, but this irrational mindset. This is a very irrational mindset. It's important to get inside and both see that, well, this isn't all irrational because of bad internet stuff.

The secret was the most popular book in America for a while. And that played a role in how his dad is rich and successful. And a lot of this is not just a failure, and I don't want to paint what happened to Elliot Roger and what he did is, this is just because of the mean-all internet.

This is a kid with deeply toxic parents who's also been exposed to a lot of very toxic things through other elements of the culture that have nothing to do with the internet. And it all forms part of what happens next, right?

Now, obviously, the secret doesn't work for Elliot. He also tries to work out in the gym and get buff. And that doesn't help him pick up any ladies. He spends a lot of time though on bodybuilding.com's board. And he presumably tries pickup artistry

because he winds up posting regularly on pua-hate.com. Now, he doesn't say much about pickup artistry.

in the manifesto, I don't remember anything.

And I did like a word search. I couldn't find any related terms. So the only way that we kind of know there was he was other than the fact that he's posting in pua-hate.

“The reason we know that he at least was familiar”

with pickup artistry tactics is that in his videos in manifesto, he would make regular references to betas, a term that he would use to insult men he disliked. And he wrote about, like, I need to act cocky and arrogant to try and attract women, which is a common pickup artist strategy.

So there's evidence that, again, that he's in this community, but we don't know, did he like pay for classes? How into it was he, that's kind of unclear, but for whatever reason pua-hate, the website appeals to him immediately.

He saw it as quote, a forum full of men who are starved of sex, just like me. He starts reading up on lookism, right? And he becomes aware of, like, some of these theories that they've started to craft.

And he writes that he's quote, "confirmed many of the theories I had had about how wicked and degenerate women really are." The members of pua-hate wrote a lot about Eliot Roger, too, in the wake of his free killing. Purn article about the online reaction to his shooting in Slate.

When news of the shooting broke, pua-hate members attempted to absolve themselves by critiquing Roger sex appeal.

Short lower third and gay mid-face with zero brow ridge,

one decided ridiculing his mother's looks and scrambling to assert authority among themselves. Only high tea guys should be allowed to give advice here. Can you add that as a rule, one poster said. Another poster suggested that Roger was such a beta

that no one would care if he'd murdered people. No one gives a shit about some socially deprived, narrow, clavical, twink with a delusional sense of self. He's a poser, he said. Nothing will come of this.

You sensationalist losers. Certainly not national coverage. Just one of the wrongest in cells to ever be a wrong in cell. They're also some very gross responses from the pick-up artist community,

because the fact that he posts his manifesto on pua-hate.com means that there's a lot of initial blame for the like, oh, this guy did pick-up artistry help cause the eye-livist is shooting, right? And then when you look in the manifesto,

he says very little about it. So a lot of these guys are like, well, he just wasn't into it enough. Slates Amanda has reported at the time that one website strategic dating coach posted that Roger

quote should have gone to our website and got our personal dating coaching or purchased one of our products. Great stuff. I love the idea of just like, wow,

there's been this guy just went on a killing spree and murdered a bunch of people. I should advertise my dating coaching system.

I'm like, that's a very first reaction.

Of course, of course.

“That's what I do after every tragedy, right?”

Soon as COVID hit, I was like, look guys, I know this, this plague's a real problem, but I can teach you how to pick up ladies. Didn't make a lot of money off of that one. I don't know why, 2020.

Bad time to be giving dating advice, shocking stuff. This is a bad way to lead into what I'm gonna talk about next. But yeah, four years after the I live as to shootings, Canadian Alec Menace and drove a rental van into a crowd in Toronto, killing 10 and 1 in 14 people.

Police noted the victims were predominantly women. Before launching his attack, Alec posted this to Facebook. Private recruit Menacean Infantry 0010, wishing to speak to Sergeant 4chan please. The Insel Rebellion has already begun.

We will overthrow all the chads and stasis, all hail the Supreme Gentlemen. I'll eat it, Roger. - What? - That's, you know, it's the kind of thing

that would be more worthy of mocking if he hadn't killed 10 people. But he did, you know, it's this fucking thing with the internet where's this mix of, well, that's just absurd. And also so many people are fucking dead

and have their lives forever changed because of this fucking asshole. So these are the only three attacks that we're discussing these episodes, but they're not the only Insel related killings.

“But it is important that the massive media response”

to specifically Roger and Menacean spree killings cemented the public image of an Insel. And ironically, guaranteed they insels a shocking degree of cultural influence from then on. Especially because Roger does this

while posting a manifesto, it gets Inseldom's foot in the door culturally in a very weird way. And part of what's happening is people are horrified by these attacks, but they're also reading shit like what Alec Menacean post and they're like,

well, that's just ridiculous on some level. The way these people talk is like very silly as scary as it is. And for whatever reason, that kind of makes people adopt, I think initially, ironically,

but a lot of people start adopting the elaborate terms that Insel's are using. And it starts filtering out even a chunks of the internet that have nothing to do with Insel's. What of my sources for these episodes?

It's the 2025 book Algo Speak by linguist Adam Alexic. His book is broadly about internet slang and particularly how algorithmic censorship on social media

and how that has changed the way that people talk in the real world.

“He spends a lot of time though in his book talking about Insel's”

because it turns out they hit way above their weight class when it comes to linguistic influence. In forums like PUA hate and specific sections of forechand, which also becomes a major Insel hub.

It's later than like those first couple of big web forums,

but it's also like larger in a lot of ways. They start cooking up new terms. This is where we get words like mocking, which simply means to best or to outclass someone in a visible way.

Marion Webster notes, it was originally used to praise one man as being taller, more muscular or more stereotypically handsome and direct comparison to another man. This is really a result of the deep and security at the core of a lot of these guys.

Anytime they see a photo, where there's like a very muscular guy and then like someone who's not as muscular they always get mocked. Like the Chad is mocking on this beta, right? It's most like, well, these are just two guys

of slightly different sizes standing next to each other. They can kind of only conceive of human relationships in patterns of dominance and violence, which is a really important thing to note. But this idea of like a Chad mocking a beta

is not just influential in like online terminology. It gives us some of the like to this day why to spread memes online. Like there's a bunch of major like Chad versus beta meme format that all come out of the in-soul culture

in this period. We'll have a couple on screen, but you've definitely seen these. One is on one side, you've got like a drawing usually unlike without any color of like a bald guy with glasses,

who's like yelling and crying and the next to him, you've got like the guy with the beard and his hair is well-coated and he's got like a strong jaw

“and a thick neck and he's like, that's the Chad, right?”

And you'll have the crying beta saying something ridiculous and the Chad will say something cool.

There's a million ways that this meme format gets used

every one's seen it, right? And there's the other version of it that I'm sure you've all also seen as you've got an illustration of like the beta dude who's got like a shoulder slump and he's walking forward

and you've got the Chad who's got like fucking golden hair in a triangle and he's like buff and it's kind of a funny drawing of like a Chad too and you'll have like both than labeled in different ways.

These can refer to anything 99% of the time and either of these memes are used. They have nothing to do with the Insel subculture, right? I've seen this shit dressed up for like fucking arguments about what engine is best, you know?

But these are also, those of you seeing these online or recognizing them for what I'm saying, these are some of the most widely spread meme formats today and they come out of the Insel community. That's very interesting.

The Insel community also invents using the term

“cell at the end of a word to add a negative context”

to another word. This starts with terms to help members of the community differentiate various types of celibates like vole cells, voluntary celibates or fake cells which are people who pretend to be in cells

but really have had sex at some point and then of course there are true cells which are obviously the real in cells, you know, who actually have no hope. This turns into a broader trend too.

You can find just the other day while I was like talking about like prepping with someone and they mentioned that we'll gas a lien only lasts like six months and I was like, oh yeah, if you're a gas cell,

of course you're gonna have to deal with gas expiring. Diesel maxers stay winning, right? (laughing) Bits like that are all over the fucking place now and again, generally completely detached

from any of their original usage. The term cuckt also owes a great deal of its modern use to themselves. Although there's a lot of cross pollination with the alt right there,

I don't know that I'd say that's predominantly comes in as an in cell term 'cause I do feel like a lot of it comes out of like the alt right too, but I don't know. We can linguists can argue over that one.

Another incredibly influential term was maxing which starts being used by the non-black pill chunks of the in cell community to describe a variety of activities to increase their sexual market value,

working out a lot and taking steroids is gym maxing, going under the knife to improve your looks is surgery maxing. And the broader trend of lookism eventually evolved into looks maxing, which will bring us

to clavicular before too much longer. Before we get there, I had to emphasize so many of these terms are not just in use across the internet. They're like common slang for a lot of very normal jinsy and gin alpha kids.

Adam opens his book "Algo Speak" by talking about a viral 2024 TikTok meme that's just somebody walking down a sidewalk in Arizona with the text above on the screen. It's so hard being a walk-pilled cardio maxer

in a car cell gas cup state like Arizona. And like it's a joke. You're kind of both making fun of Arizona being so fucking focused, like, car dependent, but you're also making fun of in-cells

and the way they talk, right? That's part of the bit.

Yeah, 'cause it sounds so fucking stupid.

“'Cause it sounds so fucking stupid and silly, right?”

And the fact that in-cells have invented all these terms, so many bespoke words,

and that they're always making new ones isn't weird.

I want to say that much right up the front. For one thing, subcultures like this are heavy on the cult part. For sure. And a major dimension of cult dynamics

is creating unique terms and phrases that only means something to people in the cult. This is how you separate cultists from the rest of society and also isolate them. Now, there's not a cult leader in the case of in-cells,

but they do use these terms as a way to determine who's a true cell or not, right? If you know it, you use the lingo, right? You know, then maybe you're one of them, but if you make an obvious mistake

and how you're using it, then they could tell you don't belong here, right? You're either new or you're an infiltrator. This is an old thing in online communities. I can remember similar stuff happening

on different boards and something awful where it's like, if you post there and you don't know the posting style and the in-jokes they use, you'll immediately

“get found out as someone who doesn't belong, right?”

Right. So this isn't weird that in-cells do this, but what's confounding and is novel is how successful in-cell terms and memes have been at spreading in Normaic culture. Adam's book Algo Speak traces how this happened.

Starting from in-cell only spaces like Pickup Artist Hate and expanding out to 4chan's R9K board as Adam explains in Algo Speak. Let's start with a philosophy began in earnest, 4chan.

Despite the forums earliest importance, it remained a place where in-cells mixed with normies. The in-cells wiki page for R9K, their main discussion board on 4chan, calls it a pseudo-incellous theory in space,

although it was a medium for some genuine in-cell discussion,

it was never purely an in-cell forum

and also served as a place for people to pretend to be in-cell and troll actual true cells. Now, this is interesting to me because the fact that 4chan is bigger and more vibrant as a community

and thus is a better place to post in a lot of ways in these tiny little in-cell forums that don't get as much attention

“is always at war with the frustration at the fact”

that it's also polluted by normies, right? You get more attention, you can spread your ideas to more people, but you're also gonna talk to a lot of folks who aren't in-cells and who just want to make fun of you. And this kind of leads to an interesting variant

of what's called the toothpaste tube effect and that's really what's going on with all of this. And if you haven't heard that term, apply the online communities, I'll explain it here. So the toothpaste tube effect comes out of research

that was done on pro-anorexia and eating disorder content,

which was some of the first stuff online

that got banned in an organized way. AOL and Yahoo start banning pro-anorexia content in 2001 and 2002, and this is among the earliest concerted efforts of online censorship of harmful communities. This continues for years in between February and March of 2012,

Tumblr and Pinterest, both of which hosted a lot of thin inspiration memes, announced that they were also banning all such content. But no matter how many big websites or how many social media companies

banned pro-anorexia content, such sites and communities spread and proliferated across the internet and indeed across the world. And this stuff in the art starts to spread over in a year at particularly in the France where it sparks panic

among legislators. In the EU, they start pressuring social media companies and web hosts to censor content that used specific terms associated with pro-eating disorder content.

Unfortunately, this has the opposite effect, rather than reducing the prevalence of such content and the size of such communities, it merely pushes them to adopt new terms in order to escape censorship

and to find new hubs for their content. In 2012, researchers at the University of Greenwich published a paper in which they mapped the French pro-anorexia community over two years using a web mining tool. They use this to build a graph.

Those of you on the video side of it will see it right now, describe it in a second. But this graph represents communication patterns between different nodes of the pro-anorexia community, showing how users could start from a single website

with a relatively mild pro-eating disorder stance to escape censorship, so something that's soft enough that it's not going to get banned. But from that source, it connected to nodes with much more and much more extreme content.

And you see how this happens, the way that it's called the toothpaste tube effect in part because it kind of looks like you've got a big mass on one end and a tiny chunk of the initial nods on the other. And it looks like they've been squeezed in the middle

to push the big, loud out, right? That's kind of where the name comes from. Now, the authors of that paper wrote of the sites that have successfully escaped attempts at censorship, survival involves turning inwards

as these communities become more entrenched. Survivors control major flows of information within clusters, but do not bridge them. In terms of information circulation, that favors redundancy.

Subgroups of pro-anorexia bloggers will exchange messages, links, and images among themselves and exclude other information sources. Consequently, in a health information or awareness campaign

If in 2010, such a campaign would target the websites in the middle of the graph so that they relay the message to the margins, in 2012, the middle is virtually deserted. And the chances of spreading public health relevant information are lower.

And again, the salt come to be known as the toothpaste tube effect. But what that means is that there's a documented history of attempts to crack down on digital subcultures that just turns those subcultures more extreme

and makes them more resilient to positive intervention. And we definitely see this within cells. The wake of these initial killing sprees,

“there are numerous attempts to ban and sell content, right?”

Especially after Manassians attack, there's a bunch of crackdowns and bands of different, you know, in cell communities online, several big forums actually shut themselves down because the people running them are worried

about attracting the attention of law enforcement.

But the first stage of the insult response to this

was pure toothpaste tube effect. They find new places online together and they start coming up with new terms that the algorithms aren't looking for so that they can keep talking openly

without people noticing. In cells who tired of socializing with normies on four chance R9K board moved to Reddit where the in-cell subreddit quickly accrued a huge audience as Adam Alexek writes.

From there, this slowly began pushing their philosophy and other subreddits. Forms like these were evidently fruitful recruiting grounds but the in-cells found their greatest success on the rate me subreddits

where people would post pictures of themselves and ask for feedback. Here in cells were able to promote a more accessible version of their philosophy by disguising looks maxing language

as helpful suggestions. And this is where things get installed. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's crazy, right? - Totally.

- And how much of this involves in-cell language, meeting relatively normal people and they're just being like, "Oh, that's kind of funny and adopting it." So the in-cell subreddit gets purged in 2017.

At the time of its death, it had about 41,000 members. - Not soon enough, Reddit. - Not soon enough. And after in-cell R in-cells died as cat noted earlier, brain cells

becomes the new in-cell gathering up. They just changed the name, right? It's the toothpaste tube effect. And that is able to stay in action until like 2019 is when brain cells get spanned.

- It was a big deal, it was a big deal, right? And it attracts a lot of outrage from in-cells at the time and obviously these companies are proud of what they're doing, but it doesn't stop anything, right?

Like that's kind of the issue. These are whack-a-mole attempts but they don't actually deal with the central problem. - Right. - Like, yeah, not that I'm against shutting down communities

like this, but it's simply not enough. - They're shaving, not waxing. - Yeah. Well, it's also, they wait so long.

“At a certain point, the damage is kind of done, right?”

But at the time, anyone with power cares enough to try to crack down on this stuff, the terminology and some of the ideology has gone terminal with the in the internet's collective mind. It's broken containment.

The creepy in-cell obsession with statistics behind the statistics behind attractiveness meets this well of deep insecurity at the center of social media and very strange stuff starts to happen on the rate me subreddit.

Well, posters were evaluated on pseudo-scientific look as in beauty standards, like inter-ocular distance and can'tful tilt and hunter eyes. They were encouraged to improve their facial structure through muwing and jaw surgery, so they could mog others.

Even once the in-cell subreddits were eventually shut down by reddit, forms like rate me continued to normalize and sell jargon.

And muwing is basically putting your tongue

in a specific place so that your jaw is more prominent. They believe it like breathing through your mouth leads to you having like a smaller jaw and stuff like that. So fun fact about this, muwing is actually, like I believe it technically

is like an orthodontic measure by a guy whose last name was Mew. So like I have a lot of jaw issues and I had an appliance that broke because I've been grinding my teeth so much and I can't afford to get a new one

until after the campaign. So like technically at night, when like I'm trying to make sure my jaw is in the right place, that's like technically muwing. Yeah, yeah, exactly.

It is a real thing.

“I'm always muwing to mog Ben when we go to sleep, you know?”

You're doing it to bug me. [LAUGHTER] I'm Clayton Nackard, and in 2022, I was the lead of ABC's The Bachelor. Unfortunately, it didn't go according to plan.

He became the first bachelor to ever have his final rose

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It began as a one night stand and ended in a courtroom with Clayton at the center of a very strange paternity scandal. The media is here. This case has gone viral. The dating contract.

We're such one.

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It feeps.com or The Veeps app. I'm Nancy Glass, host of the burden of guilt season 2 podcast. This is a story about a horrendous lie that destroyed two families. Late one night, Bobby Gumpride became

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Apple podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. So Adam goes on to note that ironically, looks maxing at a lot of its terms and ideas get brought to TikTok first, probably by young women, who had picked up the terminology from rate me in similar subreddance.

Beauty influencer started adopting a lot of these terms in order to rate each other on their application of eyeliner or whatever. Oh, this is a good job of reducing the interocular distance or whatever, you know, like that's the way in which it's being used.

Often, this is ironic and satiric, right?

“Like these ladies are kind of making fun of this stuff, right?”

And kind of making fun of themselves a little gently. But it's also done genuinely, sometimes. It doesn't really matter whether it's being done ironically or genuinely in any individual case, the words and some of the concepts are spreading.

Yeah, there's a lot of really cool community on the internet. We're like, there's like people being like, hey, I have a big event coming up, but I'm doing my own makeup. Like, what do you think I should change?

Like, what's my blindness on this? And like, people are, you know, of course there's assholes everywhere, but people are generally like pretty cool about it, nice. And it's like a cool, like, internet community, not this. No.

Well, and it's, you know, again, most, I'm not trying to blame either, like, put some beauty influencers using these terms 'cause they're funny. It's not bad. It's just, it also is part of this process

by which these terms get more normalized. And it doesn't crease through reaches some of this stuff. And a lot of these people probably don't even know

where a lot of these terms enter the vernacular for the first time.

Who's doing that kind of research? It's just something you saw online. It just seems like organically changing terminology. Yeah. Now, while in cell terms and phrases are taking off

with normies, looks maxing, gross increasingly popular, the dedicated true cell communities online are also getting more toxic at this point in time. Right, these are the guys who reject looks maxing. These are the guys who believe I'm doomed

because I'm just too ugly to be helped. Per that study from the Australian Strategic Policy Institute quote, by 2016 in cell forums had largely moved away from the red pill philosophy towards the black pill.

in the toxicity of the language used in these forums,

“phenomenon that was measured by the Google Developed”

Machine Learning Tool Perspective API in 2021. And we're not going to be talking a lot about kind of what happens to the black pilled in cells after this point, but I don't want to leave them out entirely because periodically, you do see gasps from that community

that go viral for something besides mass murder. One of the weirdest examples of this is the so-called Oxford Study meme. Starting the summer of 2024, the phrase Oxford Studies started popping up all over social media accounts

owned by young Asian women, per the Guardian quote, "An Asian woman vlogging about her dating life and particularly about dating white men gets commenters reacting to her updates with the words Oxford Study.

A young Asian student showing off her prom dress with her white boyfriend sees a obligatory Oxford Study comment on her TikTok. I can already hear the Oxford Study comments coming. One Asian woman captures a video of her dancing

with her white partner. Now, what does this mean? Well, this purported Oxford Study is an academic paper that is said to show that Asian women are increasingly dating white men instead of Asian men.

This isn't real. The study doesn't exist. It's fake. It's a lie. Insels and MRAs created memes that claim to quote

from this fake study with fake quotes from it to spread this idea that because it's not like a real thing in any way, that's like a problem. But they want to argue that this is like one of the biggest issues in society is white men dating all of the Asian women.

And so they start like lying and making up a fake study. And it spreads widely enough that people will just start posting Oxford Study whenever they see like a mixed race relationship like that. I've seen that online and I had no idea

what it meant and that's where that comes from. So yeah, anyway, let's get out of the black pill crew and talk about the real reason for the season looks maxing influencer, Quivicular, aka Braiden Peters, who is now one of the most viral assholes.

Quivicular isn't his real name? No, no, no, which is tragic. It makes me want to have some like a way in it. Quivicular. He does.

He does look like a braiden. He does look like a braiden, strong braiden energy. So to return to the viral posts that started all of this, Quivicular was mid-gestergooning when a group of foids came and spiked his cortisol levels is ignoring the foids

while munting and mugging moids more useful than SMV Chad fishing in the club. Now, this post, as ridiculous as it is, was may have been a joke, probably was a joke. And it's a joke, probably a joke

because it's making fun of something that definitely happened on one of Quivicular's live streams in February. He was hosting a live video on kick while at ASU, and he went to a frat party. About three hours into his stream,

he goes into this frat house. I think he's just trying to get away

from people for a second, like talk to his audience.

And he takes a selfie while he's in the house with the frat leader. And the frat leader is like really buff. And he's wearing like a muscle shirt. And Quivicular is just like, oh, you've got me by a lot.

I stopped jimming, right? And it's a friendly interaction in the video.

“I think, but this gets written down like people in line”

are like, oh, that guy frame mocked, Quivicular, right? Like, don't push it over, yeah. Because he's buffer, you know, he's mocked. He's looking at me, he's like, yeah. Now, no one at the time thought this was significant, right?

But a couple hours after this happened, someone on Twitter posts a clip of this interaction with the description, Quivicular ran into a frat leader at ASU and got brutally frame mocked by him. And this comparatively simple sentence

is so seemingly crazy that the internet starts talking. And that's where you get that really ridiculous post, right? He's making fun of the other post kind of like, that's one theory about it. Because he's invented some terms here, right?

Just your gooning. I don't think really existed as a term before that post. It's a common issue for existing terms. So I'm naming Mr. Bell. Oh, just a good share.

Of course. Yeah. It, as far as I can tell, it's a combination of justor maxing, which is an insult term as we've talked about for being funny or entertaining

to get attention from women and compensate from not being hot. Gooning is a term that initially meant masturbating to porn without coming for long periods of time.

And is now just kind of a general term for like degeneracy, sexual degeneracy. A lot of like masturbatory, sexual degeneracy. A lot of the time. So justor gooning, despite the fact

that it is a different term from justor maxing, kind of seems to mean the same thing as justor maxing. It's used in an identical case. And as I noted, the cordless all thing is based on understanding

“that elevated cordless levels reduces testosterone, right?”

So these are, you know, I think at this point, everyone at least understands what's being said in both of those posts. Sure. I want to talk and kind of close these episodes out

by talking a little bit about particular himself, right?

And I want to quote first from an article

- Shut up, Lila, in the district.

- Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

“L.P. has documented curricular's public discussion”

of drug use, specifically method cocaine, extreme dieting and body modifications as tools for maxing, raising alarms about how such messaging influences young audiences. In this sense, curricular is the prime example of monetizing insecurity by selling routines and advice,

such as the curricular system. And he does all this while reinforcing the insel belief of worth being fixed by facial structure. So what you have, coming full circle here is, what starts is this organic attempt by people

who just are having trouble connecting with other people and are not having the kind of relationships they want and really just want to help each other, turning into a bunch of men who are getting increasingly angry that women don't like them, who invent this imaginary

like set of rules about bone structure and all this other stuff that determines whether or not you can be loved and that gets so out of hand that a bunch of people commit murder as a result of it. But because the terms are so ridiculous,

they enter the mainstream and become used in all these like online, rate me subreddits and a group of grifters like Clivicular who want to sell workout routines and dieting routines and guides to becoming better looking

realize that there's a lot of money in insel shit, right? So you go from insel start because a bunch of guys get pissed off that pickup artistry doesn't work to insel ideology is now being used to sell what is effectively the next generation of pickup artistry,

right? It's a circle of hell, that's a circle of hell. So we're gonna end by talking about bone smashing. So if you have a strong reaction to that, yeah. So obviously, bone is alive, like it's a living tissue

and it does regenerate itself, right? There's a process that makes it so much harder and stronger and more masculine. - Exactly, that's the idea.

Like the reality is your bones regenerate over time, right?

And the idea behind bone smashing is if you like bash your face with the hammer on the jaw area, it will grow back stronger. Your bones will get stronger and your jaw will get bigger, right?

- That's, that's all we're.

“- That's true, yeah, yeah, that's how it works.”

And this is, I think misunderstanding is unworking out 'cause like lifting, like, weight training can make your bones larger and stronger, right? Given enough time. - My really?

- Your bones? - Yeah, your bone, like exercise, like strength training, that's part of why like women deal with like bone density loss of the age and are often advised like that's why strength training, yeah.

- It's why at email or female as you age, one of the biggest factors on whether or not you like maintain mobility and independence is whether or not you do strength training because in part it keeps your bone strong,

which makes you must like much likely to like break them as you get older, right? - Cool. - So from that actual science, they take, well then obviously, if like working out over time

and eating right makes my bone stronger, I can just bash my face with a mallet, and my jaw bone will get bigger, right? - And you just keep doing it.

“And like the way that some of them describe it”

is almost like washer, we're like, you're just like kind of like going, do, do, do, do, all over your jaw, which is fucking crazy. Like guys, what are we doing?

- Don't, don't, don't do it. - Don't do this. - I know you're a doctor, but I can tell you not to do that. - Absolutely not. And there's a good article in the conversation

on bone smashing, bone smashing, broken bones, tooth loss, and blood vessel damage, or just a few of the harms of this bizarre tick doctor. And I wanna read a brief quote from that. There's no evidence that repeated blows

to the face, altered bone structure in humans. Although research shows it may lead to changes in rats, their bone structure in biomechanics are vastly different to humans. Not to mention, the animals in this study

developed traumatic brain injuries as a result of these repeated blows.

- Which is the first place.

- So sad, thank you, like a little rat getting its bone broken. - Why are we doing that to rats? - Okay, wait a second. Are we hitting rats in the face with mallets

to see if bone smashing works? - Well, I wanna make sure those rats can mogas. - Yeah. Oh, those rats are hot as hell, though. I mean, you can't take that away from the rats.

- Wow. - Like those rats fuck. I mean, definition, they're rats. Yeah. (laughing)

- Is that a definition of a rat? - Guide up. - Being able to fuck? - Well, I think breeding rapidly is kind of a core trait of rats.

- See, I associate that with more like rabbits. - But it too, I don't know. - So if you want to-- - So if you want to-- - I don't know. - I don't know.

- I don't know. - I don't have a take on this. I think you should, and if you don't, then you're on the wrong side of history. - That's right, the wrong side of you.

there's so much publicity here. I forget I'm trying to say some starving, but-- - Can't what we deal with the fascists. This is the next big fight.

- This is the next big fight. - Yeah. - My property now are going to be an opposite side. - That's right, do rats fuck. This is the next big culture war.

- I'm not saying they don't fuck.

I'm just saying that like the first thing

that people think about when they hear rat is fuck or trash. I think trash. - I will say trash is definitely first on the rat list. - Yeah, see.

- All right, everybody.

“- I think of the word snitch, but that's just me.”

- Well, yeah, that too, I guess. - Oh, yeah, that's fair. - All right, cat, that's what I've got. I just wanted to end by talking about bone smashing. That's more fun, right?

- It's so much more fun than earlier, Roger. - It's a lot more fun than earlier, Roger. - No, it's an honor to be back. And I'm thank you for picking something that's so up my alley that I got depressed

at how many words I knew you said. - Yeah, yeah. I really hate it. Well, thanks for podmaxing with me.

- Do you want a podgooning?

Do you want to-- - Couple of mic chads here. Do you want to-- do you want to go in your campaign for us real quick? - Okay, Sophie, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no,

I'm going to step you right there. So we don't need to be using that term that way here. (laughing) - Oh, I'm lucky, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. So you're wearing what Sophie just said.

- Sorry. - Robert and I are back on the same side and we're against Sophie, which is not something I ever thought I'd say. - Oh, I am reading Congress in the United District of Illinois

that goes from uptown, Chicago, up to Evanston, West Skogi, and then all the way to Crystal Lake in Elgonquin. - My website is catfreelanoid.com that's cat with a K, the election is March 17th. So vote, go vote, it's the primary,

it's one of the most progressive districts in the country and you can help make it even more progressive. - Yeah, well, all right, everybody, but if that's gonna do it for us here at whatever podcast this is, you just listen to it,

“you remember the name, I don't, I'm tired and also need the--”

- Robert's gotta go buy some face mallets. - Yeah, I'm gonna go face-mash and then lunch-mags. - Wow. - Buy everybody. - Bye.

- Behind the bastards is a production of cool zone media. For more from cool zone media, visit our website, coolzonemedia.com, or check us out on the I-Hurt Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Full video episodes with behind the bastards

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We love about 40% of you, statistically speaking. - I'm Clayton Eckard, in 2020, too. I was the lead of ABC's The Bachelor. - But here's the thing. Bachelor fans hated him.

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