476|Colonial Parkway Murders Update !

at Worst Case.

“And my name is Kathy Kenning Bell, I'm a retired FBI agent and pro-filer.”

And today with me is, Morino Kano, a 25-year veteran of the FBI and a 20-year member

of the evidence response team. And what's me today is-- >> Hi, I'm Jim Clementi, retired FBI profile of former New York City Prosecutor Red producer of Criminal Minds, and Bluebeard on Audible. And we have two very, very special returning guests, and they are.

>> Kristen Dilly, I am the co-host of Mind Over Murder, I'm also a teacher, a writer and a victim's advocate.

>> And I'm Bill Thomas, I'm the brother of Kathy Thomas, who's one of the first victims

in the colonial parkway murders and co-host with Kristen Dilly of Mind Over Murder. >> Well, it's great having you back, and we were in the middle of a very intense discussion about the news at broke, basically last week, that Bill, your sister and her girlfriend, Rebecca Dowski, your sister, Kathy Thomas, and her girlfriend, Rebecca Dowski, were actually positively linked to the DNA to the killer who has been already linked to four other victims of the

colonial parkway murders, Alan Wade Wilmer Sr., and you were telling us, Kristen, about the other cases that might be linked to the same killer.

“So why don't you give us everything you have on that?”

>> Yeah, for years when Bill and I started working together, we figured that there were

going to be other cases that were linked to the four original double homicides in the colonial parkway murders case, and I coined the phrase Parkway adjacent cases, because they fell right into the middle of the series of the colonial parkway murders. >> You mean in terms of time? >> Yeah, absolutely, so if you were to draw this case out on a timeline, for example,

you would get the 1986 murders of Kathy Thomas and Rebecca Dowski, the 1987 murders of Robin Edwards and David Knobbling, and then in between Robin and David and our next set of victims, Keith Collinca, Sandra Haley in 1988, you would find the cases of Brian Pattonger and Lorian Powell. Brian Pattonger disappeared in December of 1987 from Hampton, Virginia. He was later found in January of 1988 in the Chekata Creek, which is a tributary

of the James River. He was found tied with rope and cause of death was blunt force trauma, and then about a month later, in February of 1988, we had the disappearance and murder of Lorian Powell. She was found stabbed to death, washed up on Cranie Island, which is a U.S. Navy UNISSIONS area at the mouth of the Elizabeth River. And then after Lorian Powell was found, then you get to Keith Coll and Cassandra Haley. So literally smack in the middle of the series,

we had these two cases, and we figured very, very early on, these cannot be a coincidence. These have to be the same killer. And so in November, we did find out that Lorian Powell's murder was linked to Ellen Wade Wilmer Sr. via DNA, and that was determined via the sexual assault kit initiative from the Virginia State Police. And he was linked to Lorian through that sexual assault kit. So one of our two Parkway adjacent cases has been found to be linked to Wilmer. We are certainly

hoping that Brian Pettinger's case is sort of next on the VSP radar, because I have to conclude maybe reasonably, maybe not, that if Lorian has been found to be a victim, we're thinking Brian probably is as well. And so let's talk a little bit, Kathy, about how and why this offender,

“if he is killing men and women, why would he do couples at one point and individuals at another point?”

Well, oftentimes as we've seen Jim, we see an escalation, right? But he probably didn't start off with a couple. He probably started off with a single victim, and then escalated from there to double. But that doesn't mean he can't go back to murdering single victims in certain situations

has obviously gotten, he has a desire to kill. And the fact is that he doesn't need any

real parameters to kill. He obviously found a good hunt to ground. He as somebody who works and spends lots of his time on the water. He knows those shores very well. He knows what's going on in the little parking areas late at night. And he knows that people who are engaged in, you know, lovers laying type activities are usually, let's say, distracted and they're not maybe as situationally aware as somebody who might just be out there, you know, looking at the sunset or

“whatever. But the fact is that once he started killing there, I believe he just threw out a net.”

He wasn't targeting people. He didn't wait and follow someone, go from their home or their work

or they're there. When they went out, he didn't necessarily follow them there. But he took advantage of the fact that they were there and vulnerable. And those were the people he actually killed. I mean, a lot of opportunistic. Yes, very opportunistic. I think, you know, a lot like his real keys, for example. And, you know, those kinds of killers, they cast out on that. They don't care who it is that gets caught in the net. As long as they get an opportunity to kill. Now, obviously,

and I'm sorry for being graphic about this, but obviously there's a sexual component to this defender. But I was just gonna end. But, but we can't limit ourselves in terms of what we think about as sexual activity. Because for sexual status, for example, the actual act of causing and

“witnessing the pain and suffering of others is the sexual act for them. That's what turns them”

on. That's what gets them off. So, for example, if this guy was sexual status, he may very well have not even had to engage in sexual activity to have a sexual experience for himself. And that, you know, we all think of it in traditional sense. But it is not for many of the killers that we've encountered. Well, let me impose this to both of you, Kathy and Jim. The DNA that the FBI provided as their evidence for linking this murder to this defender was a small tiny trace amount of

DNA on the block clasp of Rebecca Dowski. So, I think that that really throws all this right into the area over the arena that you just outlined for us. Yeah. Well, I think, yeah. I mean, it's clear that,

“you know, there is, that is very circumstantial evidence that he did, unfortunately, engage in”

sexual activity. And binding to a sort of a consistency with this guy as well. Yes, right? Yes, he's going around the risks. And, and he handcuffs for mentioned as well, in the early going that the marks on Kathy's risk could have been from roadmage or handcuffs. Right, and as we outlined in the Lover's Lane murder series, we demonstrated how this could be accomplished by a single offender. Because when you have a couple, it's clear there's a relationship between the two people

that if you threaten one of them, you can control the other. So, for example, many times, offenders will put a knife or a gun to the throw their head of one victim and tell the other one to comply while they either have them put on their own handcuffs or zip ties or whatever. And,

or they then have sort of the drop on that second person and they're able to tie them up. So,

it's very easy to control two people with one weapon by one person. Now, that doesn't absolutely rule out that somebody didn't help him at times, but it is absolutely possible to do that with one person. Now, over time, we've seen multiple types of weapons used. Again, that may be an indication of multiple offenders. However, it can also be the fact that when he controlled the couples, he used a gun, for example, but he didn't want to make a lot of noise because maybe he was aware

to actually commit the murders. But, in other cases, where the victims apparently ran, he may have used the gun because it extended his range. He couldn't use his knife in that case, and he had to risk using the firearm even though it made noise and could have alerted people nearby. So, there are practical reasons why you might see multiple weapons by a loan offender

“in cases over the course of time. It's also important to note that he was not only a”

waterman, which involves using a knife, using ropes, using all that kind of stuff. He was also a tree trimmer, and he did that extensively, and he was also a hunter. And if we put all these places, all these death scenes on a map, you can see that they all fall into one of those three categories. So, that's not what you're saying. Mind the ties them together. You're absolutely right. And, you know, we talked about that in the show. I mean, because

that waterway does give him access, egress, and ingress. You can get to the crime scene a very syrup tissue, so he doesn't have to pull up in a car, although he may have at some point, because we did discuss the possibility that he was acting as a law enforcement officer to get

“control over these victims. And we also discussed the fact that he could very well be coming up”

from the water, and he can quietly, you know, wore a boat there, and he could climb up the embankment, which in many areas was very short, and not very obstruction filled, and he could have come up and snuck up and taken advantage of them very, very quickly and easily. Kathy, I've got something for you, and I'm going to have Bill and Aurora, Kristen, talk about it a little bit first, and that is, they've been in contact with Willmer's family,

and the family has been unbelievably supportive. They helped them materially, and even the, I've watched interviews where the neighbors are saying what a fine man this person was,

and that he never did that, but he never drank when these people never saw him drink.

His family said he didn't drink, the neighbor said he didn't drink, and my thought is, did he not drink, because he knew the monsters came out when he did drink, but Kristen, if you could fill us in or Bill a little bit more about the background we have on this guy, that would be great. Well, he was married initially for about six or seven years to a woman and I've spoken to his ex-wife several times. She said to me, Bill, it's almost like there were two islands. There's

the man that she met, they were high school sweethearts, got married very young, probably together for ballpark like six or seven years, they had two kids together, and then she initiated a divorce

saying, I don't love you anymore, but she told us he's not, he was never violent, he didn't drink

alcohol, they were very kind of conservative, you know, their friend used to tease them about it in high school, because they were like an old married couple, even as high school sweethearts, and she said, it's only when he went down to Hampton, which is how she put it, and Kristen filled me in that this is kind of a Virginia way of saying that, and she said, it's almost like there was a whole nother Alan that we didn't know, almost like a Dr. Jackson, Mr. High, Dr.

“Dr. Jack on the stride, yeah, well that is, that's very common, and that's why many many neighbors”

and friends and even family members of serial killers say they were quiet person, they never

had any problems, yeah, he was that guy, yeah, he was an elder in his church, right, I mean, people really respected him, yeah, and the fact is that they are smart enough, these are the serial offenders who are smart enough to hide their true intentions, and many of them, many psychopaths, you know, psychopaths don't really feel human emotions, but the smart ones notice it and other people and can mimic it very well, and it sounds like this is what he was doing, and

you know, she must have subconsciously picked up on this, and that's why she wanted the divorce, she must have realized that there was something going on because he was never violent to her, he never did anything, never gave her any indication that he was a heavy drinker or that he was violent at all, she must have intuitive and realized that she needed to get away from them.

Kristen, down the Hampton, yeah, yeah, before he went there, he was a little more agitated and a

little more tightly wound, because he anticipated what he was going to do. Yeah, he could feel it building, he could feel it building, and he had to let it loose, and then

“when he came back, he would just be almost like a boring pile of mashed potatoes, you know?”

It's interesting, and sad too, the FBI had Wilmer and custody in '88, because his very distinct truck was spotted on the Colonial Parkway, and the FBI was able to put that together, together with citizen tips, they're interviewing couples who said they'd been approached by a very aggressive man, almost like in a blitz attack, which Jim actually demonstrated for us on the show, the lover's lane murders, how you, you know, go, we'll hard and organized all of a sudden

you're there at the window, and a number of these couples said they have these very frightening encounters. When they searched Wilmer's home and his truck and his boat, they did find guns, knives, handcuffs, which is very key, because they think that might have been how Kathy was restrained, and he checked a lot of boxes, and then of course he was given two polygraph examinations,

and I'd love for you guys to respond to this. He passed the first one, and then the top FBI

Polygraph or whom I've spoken to was now retired, gave him a second one, and he, it was inconclusive, I can't tell you if he's lying or telling the truth, but the polygraph examiner said to me,

“Bill, we should have never let him go. Well, Bill, and I think we talked about this at the time,”

but the fact is that polygraphs are an investigative and an interview tool. They don't actually determine whether somebody is lying or telling the truth, what they determine is, the stress levels increasing during the course of an interview. Unfortunately, when you have somebody who is a pathological liar, who is completely narcissistic, who has no human empathy, and you're going to, you're going to recognize those characteristics, as part of the psychopathy checklist. If you have a psychopath,

who has absolutely no guilt or remorse about anything he's ever done wrong, it's going to be very difficult for that person to be outed during a polygraph, and although the first time he passed, it was probably the fact that they did it again, that may have increased his anxiety level just a little bit, which means it's probably pointed, right? Yes, and hopefully, yes, if the guy, because it's really important, extremely important, that the questions that are asked by the

polygraphs, first of all, that there's not a million of them, but secondly, that they're very

well crafted. It's like now for the young people who are listening, it's like the prompts that you

“have to use with AI. You have to actually prompt it correctly to get the right answers. And so”

what's important is that that polygraph had the intuition that they never should have let him go, and that intuition was absolutely right, and just like his ex-wives intuition was right on point. I think people can actually detect when there is something going on behind those shark eyes, you know, there is actually, you know, there are able, the smart ones, they're able to actually hold the wool over the eyes, and you know, wear this mask, that's very, very impenetrable,

but people who spend a lot of time with them, and people who are skilled at interview and interrogation, should be able to, you know, see that something's off, and it sounds like that's what happened in this interview. I would love to talk to his ex-wife for sure. Yeah, exactly. But Kathy, it should be noted that this polygraph examiner was very well respected, and I believe they brought him in from another division, didn't they build because he was so revered in this, in his ability

to, you know, do a great job. So with the fact that he thinks that they should have had kept him in custody, that's neither here nor there because they obviously put in the work to get a search warrant for his house, search warrant for the outbuildings, search warrant for the vehicles, which is, none of those things are really easy, and they did that, and they found everything, and they probably tested the, you know, it should probably just under a microscope,

tested the handcuffs for blood or anything like that, and they may have found fish blood on the knives, and stuff like that. So they have to, you've got to go where the evidence leads you,

It's, you know, it's not perfect. A decade ago, I was on the trail of one of the country's most elusive serial killers,

but it wasn't until 2023 when he was finally caught. The answers were there, hidden in plain sight,

so why did it take so long to catch him? I'm Josh Zeman, and this is monster, hunting lisk, the investigation into the most notorious killer in New York since the son of Sam, available now. Listen for free on the iHeart Radio App, Apple Podcasts, Spotify, wherever you get your podcasts. Martin, you brought up a question. I'm sure some of our listeners also have this question. Where did

Wilmer's DNA come from, if it wasn't encodest, and I know you're going to talk about that, Bill.

Where did the original sample come from? Was it through a search warrant or a banded

sample? No, no, it's an interesting, interesting, very interesting. I know part of the answer here, and we've actually been asking for the last two years, and we're having a difficult time getting more in-depth answer. Wilmer died at home in his bed in December 2017. He was kind of a strange for his family, and no one was really in touch with him, so he was dead in his bed for,

“I think, close to almost. Wow, now what the FBI and the Virginia State Police have told us,”

I have to express some skepticism here, because I think something's missing, but let me tell what they've told us. They said that in order to identify Wilmer's remains, he was in such an advanced state of decomposition, they weren't sure even who it was, in order to confirm that this is Alan Wade Wilmer's senior. They tested his DNA, and that confirmed that this was Wilmer. Now, what I don't get is, I think it's seven years later, I think it's 2024.

They test Wilmer's DNA against a rape kit from Robin Edwards, and she was killed with David Knobling. This is incident number two in the colonial parkway murders, and this is the Virginia State Police testing using a soccer grant, and they got a match, and they also got a match to a woman named Teresa Howell in Kristen and I were not familiar with her at this point. She was murdered in 1989

in Hampton, Virginia, and the Hampton PD were working on that. What I've never been able to get an

answer to, and I expect at some point they'll answer the question. I'm not clear on how Wilmer

“moves back onto FBI and VSP radar, and I think it's 2024.”

Because you never moved off the radar. Well, I got to push back a little bit here. They don't think he was on their radar because they didn't apparently work Wilmer from the time he was let go until 2024, I believe. I know there are 150 persons of interest. I'm sure his name was in the mix, but Wilmer and his older brother William Keith Wilmer, who died in April of 2025, who's a suspect in another unsolved murder in Virginia, Mary Keyser Harding, which is actually

remarkably similar to the Colonial Parkway murders in that happened in 1985. Is that the one up at the cabin with the two girls that were together also? No, this is one on the Rappahannick River. She was stabbed and her body was weighted down with

“Fisherman type equipment, chains and found in the Rappahannick. What kind of chains, Kristen?”

Anchor chains. Anchor chains, gotcha. Weirdly, Mary Keyser Harding worked with Keith Wilmer, the brothers wife at the Lancaster Bank, and they were very, very good friends. These are two young married women at that time. So, yeah, it sounds like he fell off the radar, and I know that we all know that the previous FBI agent that was had the case agent had another suspect, and was focusing on it. And that it can be as simple as that somebody's opinion that you know,

and let me just say, I mean, that guy was very good suspect, not only because of his direct interaction, and his apparent disdain for your sister, and her girlfriend, well, her girlfriend, and then her sister by relationship, that there was a motive there.

serial killers don't need a motive. They don't need a connection to the victim. They don't need

“a reason to kill. And I think that may make them look only at people who do have a reason to kill,”

and they look right past the guy who is a better suspect. I mean, a better suspect who is identified as being there, who had knives and guns and handcuffs and ropes. I mean, to me, that's a pretty good substantial evidence to focus on that guy. Talk to your point about motive, Jim. When you think about it, guys, if you're a child predator, and you kill children after you sexually assault them, your only motive is getting off. And at a very elemental level, that's probably what

we're talking about here. Oh, absolutely. There's no probable about it. That is what's going off. I'm going on here, and I think there's, you know, answering to be made for why he fell off that list. And why it took so long to get back to him. Now, you know, obviously, you know, as we all have said, you know, every every couple of years for the last two decades, DNA technologies gotten better and better, collecting technologies got better and better, separating

out multiple DNA samples. And being able to actually use a smaller and smaller sample to do a full DNA profile, all of that technology has gotten better. And it does take, you know, some time to get these cases done. And, you know, not every case can be done at the same time. So, you know, and there's also funding issues and all this other stuff and manpower and womanpower issues. And

“I think, you know, it is remarkable that even after all these years, even after the guy has been dead”

for years, that the FBI still did pursue the case. But I know that they didn't make you happy along the way. Bill, and we'll talk a little bit about that. Well, it's often been behind the scenes in almost adversarial relationship. And I've said on high level conference calls with the FBI, since when did the brother of the murder victim become the enemy? And I said to them,

"You often treat me like I'm the enemy. And I have been very critical of the FBI.

And some of the delays and problems that have happened within this case. I've admitted to the FBI. I recognize I can be a handful. And I have criticized this investigation in some of the significant

“shortcomings. For instance, they threw away Kathy and Becky's rape kits as medical waste or order”

of the FBI eight years after they were murdered. Oh, my God. I don't know that it was order of the FBI. What it is for our listeners is whenever you're a case agent on any of these things as Jim and Kathy can attest to. Obviously, we run out of room all the time and there's all kinds of evidence that can and should be. That wasn't what it was. That wasn't what happened. That wasn't what it was. In the evidence was sent. Kathy and Becky's rape kits were sent in error to the York

Pococon County Sheriff's Department, which is the agency that covers that. They were working on another rape case. And the evidence clerk from York Pococon County reached back out to the evidence clerk at FBI. Norfolk and said, you included the Thomas Dowsky rape kits. That's not the right case. So they were told to put them aside. And then, and I've heard this directly from the Sheriff of York County, they ended up in kind of this weird bureaucratic pissing contest where

was it going to be the FBI was going to go back across town to pick up the rape kits or was York Pococon County going to send somebody over and they got into a pissing contest, which happens as we know. Of course. And then after a period of time, it may have been longer than a year, the FBI facts. This is how far back we go. A letter over to York ordering them to destroy the rape kits as medical waste. Now, as the chief medical examiner, Marcella Fiero said to me

some years ago, Mr. Thomas, you never throw away evidence in an unsolved murder.

I know, but so here's the thing. And this is the bridge between what more he said and what you said,

idiot did this in the FBI, probably to be able to administeratively clean their slate. In other words,

“this was, you know, their problem and the way to get rid of it is to just write a little note”

and say, get rid of it, they had nothing to do with the investigation. They had nothing to do with any kind of understanding of what was really going on and they didn't give it down. They just did it. And that, you know, unfortunately, put the stain on the whole FBI. Yeah, absolutely. But what he was that Bill was in 1994. So what had been eight years of DNA was brand new. So they're this idiot didn't even understand that DNA would help. It's great. It's great. It's a greatest

tool we'll ever known to law enforcement, right? Exactly. It's a gift that keeps on giving, really. Yes, well. And the medical examiner said to me, when I discovered this in 2009, she said to me, Mr. Thomas, it does appear that your sister and Miss Dowski were not raped

according to the findings. But she said, you never know what test will come on in 2010. She said,

that will be more refined. It's actually, she was very pressure because this is exactly what happened. She said the trajectory. Yeah. She said that these tests are getting more and more refined. And we're able to find DNA from smaller and smaller amounts. It's amazing. She was like describing something that was years out. And she said, she said to me, flat out, she said, I don't care what the FBI is saying. This should have never happened. Of course it should have never

happened. Like I said, it was some idiot who did it. But there's another problem, another technical problem with coders. Can you talk about that? Oh boy. Okay. Okay. I take it that to yes. Yes. Well, this is a Christian. Christian and I are both like, you know, want to jump into this.

Let me explain. Yeah. Because Alan Wade Wilmer Sr. was never convicted of a crime. According to

Commonwealth of Virginia law, his DNA cannot be put into the coder system. He was never charged with a crime. He's been dead since 2007. He's been dead since before he was linked to these murders. Correct. So they're not going to try him. Right. No one's going to court here. So Christian and I along with the other families are intending to try to focus on getting Virginia should change this law. Because this is crazy. Why do the rights of a dead serial killer now linked to

“six homicides? And we believe very strongly more are coming. Oh, I believe that too. Why do these”

this dead guys rights supersede the rights of the families to, in, in, in this case and in others, to proceed with a broad search. They're doing one to one comparisons. And our new case agent, our new case agent, is actually going out meeting with cold case investigators around Virginia to see if they will go back and take a look at their cold cases to see if they can be tested against

woman's DNA. So I'm going to talk for a second about the limitations of that and what that actually

means, Bill, because it's a really good point that you just made when, so when a person is convicted of a felony and their DNA is put in the system. Anytime anyone in the country puts DNA into that system, it'll ping off the national database. And it's something that the bureau developed this program. It's absolutely outstanding. Now, what Bill is talking about is small police departments with an unsolved murder can if they want. And if they're aware of it, do a one to one comparison

which they have to pay for, which is hundreds and hundreds of dollars to compare it to this DNA from the the VSP or whoever has it or maybe get with the FBI. It's just it's it's clunky at best. And and you know, I understand that it's a state law well with the Commonwealth of Virginia,

“but as a lawyer, Jim, what about I think there's no way, I mean, there's no way we can do anything”

about it. Well, actually actually state of Virginia and the federal government, they can they can still charge him. They can still, I mean, even though somebody's dead doesn't mean that they can't

it's a lot of administrative work. Which is worth it though. Right. But you know, I think they can

you know, they can get a judge to declare that his DNA should be put into code. So I mean, they can, you know, this is a, I mean, laws are written and changed all the time, right? Because circus dances change and technology changes and people's understanding changes. And I think that that it wouldn't take the Virginia legislature much to put in a caveat to that law that says,

“however, if somebody is identified and linked positively with DNA, that's what we're talking about the”

DNA, yes, yes, talking about putting anything else in there. But if he's linked positively with

DNA, then that DNA should be uploaded to codeus and it would actually simplify the process of

other people linked in these exactly along your parkway, Jason cases and maybe other cases, because we have no idea where he traveled and what he did and know that he's a serial killer. We know that he didn't need a motive to kill. And we know that he was a prolific killer. So we only know about three or four years of his killing, maybe six years of his killing, right? Yeah, the most. Well, it's like 86 to 89, right? Really? Yeah, so far. Right. So, so, you know,

“generally serial killers in my experience in Kathy, you could tell me if I'm wrong. But they don't”

generally start in 1986 and stop in 89. No, especially when they live a lot longer.

So, you know, there's probably more out there preceding 86 and after 89. So, in this type of case, there is a compelling public interest in adding his DNA to codeus. So, I would, if I were you, Bill, use your doggy persistent to hound the Virginia State Legislature to adding a caveat to that law. Anything we can do to help we will. And I just want to go on notice is saying, if and when, let's just say, when you get this past or we get this past, my prediction is

codeus will light up like Dodger Stadium. Yes, with other victims. Another, another law enforcement person who is now retired said something very similar. His phrasing is a little bit different involving swear words. Well, he said, Bill, if they load Wilmer's DNA into codeus, which he strongly supports, he said, it's going to light up like an F and Christmas tree. Yeah, very similar. You're phrasing more elegant as usual. I don't see how this differs much because

there is a section within codeus, right, that accepts DNA from unsolved crime, right? There's, so we don't know if those individuals who had left their DNA to crime scene had a criminal conviction. So, I know, it's weird. Yeah, that doesn't make sense to me. Yeah, we, we have no criminal history, they said, right? Right. Yeah, it doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter. Doesn't matter to me. I know. I get it. Yeah. This is unknown DNA. Right. Exactly. Yeah. I think

it's worth mentioning, too, that, you know, as Bill has said, the Wilmer family has been lovely and very supportive. And they are also wholeheartedly in favor of putting his DNA into

“art. They have said, you know, yeah. Well, yeah, you should, Bill, you should team up with them”

and do some testimony in front of the state legislature. Yeah. We'll help you with Nebe. We, we really, really appreciate the fact that Kristen and Bill that you came on to real crime profile on the best case worst case. And, and hopefully we are also together on mine over murder, because we really appreciate the fact that this is helping to get information out real solid legitimate information, not this information out to the general public about how these cases

actually work behind the scenes and what kind of persistence pays off and dogged persistence, even more so even despite some real pushback from law enforcement agencies. It's, it's a pleasure to be to be associated with you guys and to see how much, how much your, you know, devotion to your

this outcome, you know, of science, right, and investigative expertise. And I know, I don't

“we'd like to use this word closure, but I know that it gives some measure of peace bill to you”

and your loved ones. Yeah. Thank you. But Bill, does it, was it an interesting, I imagine, I kept thinking about you ever since this happened. And I keep thinking about all the theories that you had. And it must be, it must be interesting for you to put them to bed, so to speak, because you had, you were so convinced about one aspect or another or this fits been perfectly here, but not here. And it had to be a very difficult process. Interesting couple of days of process.

Yeah. Yeah. I was very, I was surprised, although I always thought Wilmer was a strong possibility,

particularly after it already been identified with one of the other colonial parkway murders, so that pair of people Robin Edwards and David Nowbbling. And then Link to Theresa Howell, and then in November, 2025, the Virginia State Police announced he'd now been linked to the murder of Lorian Powell. So when they said, and this is something I really appreciated. The SAC started off the meeting by telling us what the news was. She didn't make us wait. And she said, I'm going

to write to the chase, Alan Wade, Wilmer, senior's responsible for the deaths of Kathy Thomas, and Rebecca Dowski. Now, interestingly, my counterpart from Rebecca Dowski's family has really struggled with this, because he was very locked into another suspect. Oh, interesting. And I don't want to, you know, talk about people who are still with us that were potential suspects, it's not fair. But Bob really struggled with this news.

“That's what I'm saying, yeah. Because, you know, you get, like you say, more in, you know, you get”

into your head that it couldn't be this person. And it makes perfect sense. You know, they usually do. But then they come back and say, it was Wilmer, and you're like, wow, now I was open to it. And when she said it, I was surprised, but not like falling out of my chair, because I knew Wilmer was a strong possibility. And Kristen and I have brainstormed about this case for more hours than I care to come up with. Yeah, I'm on the imagination. But this is, this is Bill White,

I always say that this is, it's, it's why we always have to, we have to embrace this mindset

of going wherever the evidence takes you because otherwise, when you start saying, well, my God tells me this, and I, I'm all about the gut. I, I'll feel the gut and everything, but if something

“tells me to pivot evidence wise, you got to do it. It's the only way to stay sane in this business”

because, you know, it's, it's, it's not easy as you have experienced over these last four decades. I just want to check in and see how you're doing with that. And I, I'm not surprised that Bob feels that way. Yeah, we'll get through it. We're actually going to go back to the FBI and ask for more information. And, you know, they'll either share it with us or they won't. And we'll ask for more testing. Why not? I mean, ask for the world, ask for the moon. We'll talk about it offline.

Continue, your dog or persistence. That's what we should do. Yeah, thanks again. But the evidence and thank everyone. And we're in and Kathy for being here and thank you to all our listeners. And until next time, this is Real Crime Profile and Best Case Worst Case signing off.