483|New Info on Nancy Guthrie Abduction

My name is Morgan O'Connell, I'm your host and a 25-year veteran of the FBI, as well as

a member of the evidence response team. And with me today is... Hi, it's Jim Clemente. We target FBI profile at Form in the New York City, prosecute a red producer, a criminal minds and blooper on audible, and we are going to get back into this case that seems

to be really dragging on. It is dragging on, and I don't know about you, Jim, but I keep telling myself that these things don't wrap up quickly.

I keep pointing to the Cory Richards' case where, you know, she got arrested after a year

after the incident happened.

“So there is time, I really believe they're building a case.”

I don't know against who, but there's just a lot of things pointing in a lot of different directions with regard to this investigation. I keep pointing to the Cory Richards' case where she wasn't charged for, I believe, a little over a year after the murder occurred, and you and I both know that, often times, it takes a long time to build a case against an individual, because it's not who we think did something.

It's who we can prove did something.

Yeah, you're absolutely right, and it's just tough being on this side, being a civilian,

which we could help on these cases, this, the lack of information, we don't have all the specifics from the case, we don't know everything that long forcement knows. No, I should, we, right?

“Yeah, I get it, but what I'm saying is it's such a shame, I mean, now that we've passed”

two months since the abduction of Nancy Guthrie, we really, I'm, I'm sorry, I have sort of given up hope that she's still alive, whoever took her, probably did not plan on keeping her alive this long, and her medical condition and her advanced age, and it's just very very sad. Well, in addition to what we knew about her, her heart condition, her hearing situation,

Nancy said yesterday on that today, special with Hoda, that her mom also had excruciating pain from her back, that part of her immobility was due to that. With all those things, I mean, that's just an impossible hurdle, it seems like to me, to get over. I mean, I don't think the offender showing how unsophisticated he really was, I don't

think that he had the facilities or the faculties to keep her alive in seclusion for this length of time. Especially since she was bleeding, when she left her home, I mean, she was already, she was a visual once, yeah, I couldn't have been superficial, but they showed the predisposition and the proclivity toward violence, violence toward an 84-year-old lady who's infirmed.

It's, it just boils my blood. Right. Well, let's talk about Savannah's interview on the today show, what were the things that you

“learned from that interview that we didn't know before?”

Well, that the back door was propped open when police arrived. They didn't say what it was propped open with and nor should they, that's been side-based ball for the investigators, but they did say that the door was, in fact, propped open. They were under the suspicion initially that perhaps there was a medical emergency in the middle of the night, and ambulance was called, and they didn't go out the back door.

The family was. Correct. Family was, right. And then they discovered the blood on the front patio kind of, and they didn't believe that it was EMTs anymore, but when you say propped open, I mean, let's think about

why that could be what would be the purpose, one person got in and they propped it open for the next person, or they wanted to be able to, they felt like the front door because it had that sort of security gate on it, that it would take longer to get out that way

take off.

Those are the two things that I could think of.

Right. Think of this, if you look at the house on the right side of the house is that driveway that goes all the way around to the garage and further around to the back of the house, and in the back of the house is where this door was propped open, but Savannah actually said doors propped open, so that's interesting too.

Now, there's also when you pull in, you hook around into that circle driveway that takes you right up to the front door.

So it might go back to the briefing, whoever's cooking up this scheme says, hey, go all the

way around to the back to the back door, I'll meet you there when you pull in, take a left or something, but the person who's pulling in just instinctively takes that left on that circle drive and then they have to change plans and go out the front door. Or maybe it was because they were going to walk around the back door, but once whatever happened happened there, I mean, they had to walk around the front.

“Yeah, I think it seems like she resisted and they basically blitzed her into compliance”

and that's probably why we see that blood spatter pattern on the front, but the other thing that I learned is that the Savannah, at least, believes that two of the ransom notes were legitimate and she said, I didn't see the others, so I think that belief that she has on her part probably came from law enforcement and they only shared with her the ones they believed were real. So there may be indicators in those notes that I know one supposedly

stated the location of her watch and the fact that she had the watch and the fact that it was at a certain location and then a broken lamp outside was curdy light outside, that wasn't so convincing, but I wonder if the other note had some other verification or cross-verification

“with the first note and that's why they believe those two notes to be legitimate.”

Well, if the Apple Watch was in a very unique position like for example, they ripped it off her hand, you know, she may have had it on to keep sinking with her devices or whatever, but if they ripped it off and broke the buckle and threw it in a very distinctive place like I threw it under the vanity in the bathroom, you know, that's going to be something that is that's where they found the thing, you know, that's going to be a big deal, that's going to hold

a lot of weight and we three go ahead. But I mean the fact that they knew that she had an Apple Watch

in the first place, not everybody does, I mean I have one and I don't wear it anymore because

she borrowed all the time on those shows, she was on the shows with her daughter, she had the Apple Watch on a lot. Okay, well, but how would they know, how would they know if they weren't with her,

“how would they know that she left it there? Why wouldn't they think it was still on her?”

It's just taking such a leap of faith, I think it was legit because they knew that it wasn't on her and it was in a particular location. Right. I mean that's my thoughts, but but anyway the next thing that we learned from the interviews on today's show was that she is very, very adamant about the family all being together, all being very different about this. Super close. Yes, all that and seems, I don't know, I thought there was a bit of overselling there. I did too.

I, I, I, go ahead. I generally like Hoda, but the whole time her little homes in the background was almost like a base playing, an underlying base playing through a song, but anyhow, I, Hoda was fake crying, which, or she kept wiping her eyes and there were no tears, so I don't know what was going on with that. But all that being said, Savannah broke my heart with that interview. It just couldn't help but tear my heart out of my chest because I feel so badly for that

whole family. Right. And you could see and when she talked about the things that were unbearable of things that that they didn't want to do or think about. And she mentioned them because they are

by that, that man in that get up. It would have been terrifying for her. And then the fact that,

“you know, she was bleeding as she left. That is, it is very, very, very difficult to think about.”

And I hate that her family has to deal with that and with the uncertainty of not knowing exactly what happened or why it happened. And of course, the why Savannah brought it up. She's just torturing herself with, in fact, that it could be for some reason, somebody did this because of her and to, for her to think that she's brought this on her mother. I mean, it just, it just broke her heart

and it's just so terrible. But it's the sad thing. And you know, one of the things I would say

is that it just shows why celebrities have to be so reclusive. It brings me to a question I wanted to ask you. It right to the doorstep of it.

“Part of me was thinking, whoever did this is probably reveling in her misery. Do you believe that?”

It's an interesting question. If they were fixated on her and now they have gotten to her in this way and she's had to respond and she has made direct pleas to that person and she has her attention is drawn to that person. That may be what they're reveling on. I don't know that unless this was a revenge attack, I don't know that the person wants her to suffer. They just want her attention. So I'm not sure. It's a lot will depend on

what exactly the motivation was for this. Because the note, as we discussed earlier, had an apology

“in it and it said that she, we didn't know much about that. What have you heard about that?”

Because I haven't heard anything about it. Okay. I'll read the portion that I have. But it essentially says, I didn't realize how sick your mother was, or the extent of her, her illness, her heart condition, and let me get it right here. And I'm sorry, essentially. Yeah, I've got it right here somewhere. Where was sent that to me? Here it is. Right here. It just says that the the center of this letter apologized, claiming they did not

realize how serious her heart condition was and that she has, quote, gone to be with God and quote, that gone to be with God to me could just be a play on what Savannah's been saying the whole time that her mother is a woman of faith, so is Savannah. It's it's almost like either trying to scam her into believing something or it's trying to comfort her, which would not go along with someone who's trying to torture her. Right. Well, I will say that those statements, I don't know the

exact wording of them, but in the note, and I also don't know the source of this information, but if this is accurate, those statements seem to be what I would expect to hear from a female rather than a male, that this sort of caring and worrying about these things are not typically male attributes. And the apology goes along with that. So it could be, I mean, if these were part of the real ransom notes and they were sent early on, then I would think that Savannah and her

siblings knew and law enforcement knew right away that Nancy had been deceased and that's a surprise to me because although we did, we did see a change in Savannah's communication and the

first communication that she recorded, she was extremely distressed and without makeup and in the

communication to the, to the kidnapper. But anyway, it's interesting, if this is real, then

“I said, I think those are indicators of a female communication, not a male communication,”

and that could be somebody who was working with the guy we saw in the videos or it could be somebody who, well, it could be somebody who just wanted to make Savannah feel better, had nothing to do with this crime. I don't know. There are a lot of strange anomalies in this case. There are a ton of strange anomalies and I, can we get into post-incident indicators or should

we, do we have other territory to follow to look at first? Because I have a question.

What we've done with the, her, her interview, all right. The other thing with her interview was her brother told her on the phone. Apparently, there's some gap in time. So for example, her sister Annie and her husband, Tumaso were at the house. They had called the police and by the time they got in touch with Savannah, it was several hours later. That's surprisingly. We're already there. Yeah, that is strange. Like, why didn't she call right away? Because before the police got there,

they saw the door open and they were running around outside seeing if she got hurt and was walking to a neighbors and fell or, you know, like all the logical steps one would imagine. And then so it sounds as if they waited a couple of hours. I'm wondering if Annie called Savannah

a few times and she just either did never phone with her. It was focusing on her children or

“whatever and didn't. And that's why if you'll notice during the interview, Savannah says,”

I picked up the phone and said, "Is everything okay?" I would not say that unless someone had called me a couple of times. Would you? Well, I don't know what time of the day it was or night. It's on dinner. Yeah, well, but I don't understand dinner. I don't either. It just makes no sense. Why? Well, time difference. Three-hour time. Two hours. Two hours. Two hours. Right, but it's two hours later in Arizona. No. So, yeah. That's earlier. Then New York?

Oh, I thought she, I'm sorry. I thought she was in LA. Oh, no, Savannah lives in New York. Okay. Two hours. So, it was two hours. It was two hours earlier. No. It was two hours earlier in Arizona. Yes. That was in New York. But if it's dinner time, then it's like four in the afternoon. And supposedly, they were notified when she didn't show up for church,

you know, before noon. Right. So, why is it several hours later that they're finally

getting in touch with Savannah? I would be calling all my siblings and saying, hey, guys, have you heard from mom? Did mom say anything where she was going to be today? Exactly. Why not? Yeah. Why not ask the question? You know, as soon as you see that something's a miss, why not find out? Do you know anything about this? It's, it's, it's a little strange and it might be part of why law enforcement was a little bit, yeah, a little bit wishy-washy on on the sister and brother-in-law

because going back there to the house repeatedly and doing multiple searches, seizing your car for 41 days. I didn't know that. Yeah. They turned it back. Yeah, they finally turned it back. Yeah, well, that, you know, in the, in the interview, photo was saying, you know, the whispers, but those are whispers. Yeah, those are whispers. Those are actual investigative apps. Those are red flags. You know, I would say so.

“But anyway, yeah, I think that there's a definite pattern of unusual”

behavior exhibited in this case and hopefully we'll find it out soon. And I do think that there are so many anomalies in this case, but the offender made so many mistakes in that, in that video,

forensic genetic genealogy is going to solve this case. I do too. And that, as you know,

“is going to take a couple of months, probably, well, it could take up, it depends on where this”

person is from. It could take the pen, and it also depends on how many people are in that genetic line at that potential age group, because they have to rule out every one of them. Yes. And there's also another hiccup in forensic genetic genealogy that people don't talk about a lot, but if this, if they're looking for a surname, for example, it's a male, and they're looking for a surname. If this person's, let's say his last name is Smith, and he was raised in the Smith

household, but his actual biological father has a different last name. It would be, it'll be hard. You know, it'll be harder. It's just more challenging. And that happens so much more than people

think. I never, you know, people always talk about how manner always playing around on their wives,

and that kind of stuff. Through this journey with genealogy and DNA, it's become apparent to me that a lot of people are not the children of the fathers they grew up with. There's a whole show. There's a whole show where they have a judge, and all it's about is paternity tests. And every day, I think it's on, it's you are the father. You are not the father. You know, those kinds of determinations that are made every day in that show, it's so prevalent. They can fill

a feeling after a season. Yeah. Right. But a friend of mine, he found out that he had a sister

that he didn't know about, and it was because he put in 23 in me, and she must have, and they were, they were told about that they were half siblings. And he didn't even know about.

“I mean, this is somebody who was in his 50s when he found out. Right. So that's why people”

wonder why it takes so long. It just takes a really long time, because you're actually going through like baptismal records in other countries, if need be, and how many brothers were in this one family, and where did they end up, and so you're doing background checks, and it's a ton. And then you have to track them down, and then you have to get a certain dishes, DNA sample from them, to try to rule them in or rule them out. So it is a long process. Right. You had a question about

another aspect of this case? Yeah. I was going to ask you, you know, we talked before about post-incident behavior of the offender. So he would, he would, his behavior pattern would

“would change. He would be very different than he was before this event took place, and I think”

here the one that said he would, he would even show a great difference right when and after that video came out of the poor offender. But my question to you is now that it's been 52 days and they've so far gotten away with it. Do you think he's going back to normal now? Do you think the he can't be as nervous or what are your thoughts on that? No. I think you're right. I think he's probably less stressed than he was. If he sort

of leftown for an emergency that came up all the sudden, he may have come back now. I've seen it where they have gone away for two months and then come back because at that point, they feel like, well, the heat's off. There's not as many cops around. There's not as many FBI agents around. The press is leftown. Yes. I can, you know, kind of sneak back in and everything will be fine. But the people around him would have noticed that during that time period and that he was under

additional stress and he did make changes, behavioral changes and it, it was exacerbated on the days just when and after those images were released of him from that video camera.

Maybe the light bulb will go off. Wow. They said he would go for this, you know, away for this

“emergency or he would hide his car, change his look, get his tattoo covered on his wrist or”

which by the way, I never saw. I saw those photos, but I've never seen anything that

are you kidding me? No. You've never seen a photo of it. No, I've seen that photo you sent me, but I look very carefully at the original video. I cannot see that tattoo in any of the videos no matter how many times I stop it. Okay. Well, you don't have, maybe you just have to have better equipment, but it's, it's very clear that there is a black, I mean, square it off, tattoo. I mean, there's only kind of marking that I think it could be.

Well, so my follow on to your last comment is this, if someone does come back into town

and now the neighbors see them, it's my opinion that if, if I walked up to that person and said,

hey, Joe, where have you been for two months? I knew something happened, but that was a long time where were you? My guess is his response would be defensive and, and, and agitated. I think people that know him will know that his answers don't add up. And if that happens,

“you should call long force me. Make a phone call for sure.”

I mean, you, you have not seen this. I've seen that photo, but I'm telling you, I've looked at every video, the actual video that's coming from the FBI and stuff, and I can't see it on the video,

at all. So I just, I don't know. I mean, can you, can you go frame by frame on your computer?

On the big one, I can. I just, and you still couldn't see it. Well, it's there. I just don't hear law enforcement talking about it, but the other thing is, I don't think they don't talk about it. Yeah. The other thing I was going to talk about is how strange it is that we don't ever hear from the DA or the city manager whenever Nanos is talking,

“he's by himself. Where's the team? You know? Where's the team work that's going to make the”

dream work here? I don't know, but I thought, you know, when they decided not to use the FBI lab, that just struck me as kind of weird because they're paying hundreds of thousands of dollars for a private lab to do the DNA when the FBI provides that service for free. It just doesn't make sense unless they're just trying to keep control over something. I don't know. It's weird. And releasing the crime scene like the day the FBI airt landed or the day after

all they had to do was hold it, you know. That was a big mistake because with that bite light, when you consider the bite light in that offender's mouth, he didn't leave it in there for 41 minutes. I can guarantee you that. So what did he do? He took it out of his mouth thereby transferring tons of really rich DNA onto his fingertips and of course he had to touch stuff. Even if it was the covers to grab the covers to pull them down, you know. Yeah, I just, I,

well, how do you prop a door open without touching anything? Yeah, I mean, how do you get an 84-year-old woman out of the house without touching anything? I mean, especially if she's fighting you, I mean, there's going to be a plethora of things that they came in contact with. And I would think that the blood pattern that you see outside, you'd see similar blood patterns inside and that should give you a very good indication of where he went. That was reported also that definitively

that the blood pattern inside the door closely mirrors not identical, but closely mirrors the blood pattern outside the door. So perhaps when they got her to the front door or it doesn't look like there was a struggle though. So, you know, maybe when they were opening the interior door and getting ready to push open that Rod Iron Gate door, she shifted somehow and blood came out and then when they walked out, it continued until they either turned around again or almost as

saying walk, walk, walk, walk because he would have walked right through that blood. Her foot impressions

might be there or you would find a void where blood fell on her foot and then on the ground next door and you would see that blank spot that void that you know, you and I know is so important in a crime scene when you're looking at blood patterns. So it just seems to me that, um, and I've

“said this from the beginning, I thought that hey, they had a tarpa or something and I think she was”

over the shoulder and the only reason for taking down that camera after the offender was already seen would be because you did not want anyone to see what condition she was in as your exiting the crime scene. Well, I don't know that that they would have known what condition she would be in, you know, if they took the camera before they even entered the house, but I guess we'll see. I mean, conscious or unconscious, you know. All right. Well, I mean, we will continue to follow this

case to the extent we can and give you our best analysis. This is a very sad and disturbing case. I still I'm very confident that this is the case that's going to be solved. Me too.

We just have to exercise patients, which is never easy. But again, I look at that quarry rich in

case where it took a year to arrest her and then she spent a year, so in jail and then she just got convicted last week. So there's hope that this offender is going to be, um, brought to justice. My thought I wanted to ask you one last question, though, Jim, um, to me, if there were two or even three people involved, I would say two, but for the sake of argument, let's say three,

“the only way the secret can be kept this long when you've got $1.2 million on the table is”

they had to get rid of whoever else was involved. Also, don't you think?

Like if it's a, if it's the two of us, the only way I'm going to be able to sleep at night and not

think that, oh, Jim, he's going to go for the, the sweet deal and get off and get the money. But I don't know. I think that's the whole purpose of doing that, but if there are multiple people involved, but again, I don't, I don't see, I just don't see any proof of that in what I know about the circumstances and I do know that conspiracies fall apart, that people can't keep secrets and therefore it's a, it's a very rare thing. I think if this was somebody who was fixated on

Savannah or even on Nancy, that it was a loan actor, but if it's something else, if it is some kind of revenge and if it is some kind of scheme to get money, then you might have multiple offenders, I just don't, I just don't, I just don't see the proof of it. It may be at the crime scene and I, you know, I just don't, I'm not aware of it. Generally, when you, when you, when you say there has to be multiple offenders, many times that's because there are multiple victims,

there are multiple weapons used, those are indicators obviously, and you forensic evidence that could indicate that, but I just don't, I'm not aware of any, in this case. Well, there aren't any drag marks. So, you know, that is, to me, that's one indicator, but I, I, a loan offender would make the most sense with regard to how hush hush this thing has been, but, you know, I keep going back to that photo from, was it January 11th, where the offenders

were in the exact same get up and standing in the arch of the, of the front steps, but it doesn't have the backpack on. Yeah, but, I mean, I, I just don't understand why they're at the front door. If you're, if you're trying to case the place, you're not going to stand in, in the front door, where there's potentially a door cam, you'd be off to the side, you'd be looking in the windows,

“you'd try to make a determination, hey, is someone here on weekends, is there an extra car in the garage?”

Are there lights on in the back, is that back door unlocked? You know, there's, how about the garage door, the pass through door from the garage? Is that often unlocked? Who knows? Let's check it out. You know, there's all kinds of other things you can do, the last thing I would do is walk

those things. He may have determined that she wasn't there that night, who knows what was that

made him come back on the night, he actually abducted her, but it's very typical for offenders

“to do pre-attacks of aliens. Yes, it is. That's what that looks like, and who knows, hopefully in the end,”

we will know, but we don't know now. Well, then let me ask you this. Let's say you and I are doing an

op, and it's going to be a dangerous one, and it's high risk, no matter how you look at it. And we're going there. What infrastructure do you and I need in place for us to feel that relaxed and comfortable

“in a situation like that? I would have to know that I got a guy in the car who's ready to,”

you know, swoop up and get me out of there if need be. I have to know that there's no thread

on the inside whatsoever that, you know, there's just a lot of things you would really already have to know in order to be that calm, cool, and collected standing out in front of that

“porch or on the front porch that night, or it could have been a loan offender who knows because”

he's done pre-attacks of aliens that she is going to be alone, that she goes to bed at a certain time, that she takes out or hearing aids, she is not going to be a physical thread, and nobody's going to show up in the middle of the night, nobody's going to call her, she's asleep, she gets up, but at whatever time, nobody's going to be here during that time period, that if he's done enough surveillance, if he knows enough information, that could give him the confidence to act the way

we saw on the video. Okay. We'll see, hopefully this will be resolved and we'll be able to fully analyze that behavior. But until then, all we can do is hope and pray that this does get solved quickly. Yes. All right. Well, everyone, thank you for listening. This is Best Case Worst Case signing off.