The Making of Season 5 | BONUS

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“How long have we been best friends since today we met?”

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Open your free eye-heart radio app, search Serving Pancakes and listen now. Presented by Capital One, Founding Partner of Eye-Heart Women's Sports. I'm Andrea Gunning, and this is Betrial. Today we have another bonus episode. Now that season five is over, I wanted to get the whole team together.

Our producers, our editors, to talk about how this season came to be. And all of the moments that stuck with us along the way. Here's our conversation. Hi, everybody. Hi. Hi. Hi.

We did this last year where after we released season four,

we got together and talked about all of our favorite moments, what it was like producing the season. And I thought that it would be kind of fun to do it again. Maybe where we can start is going around and everyone introduce themselves and tell a little bit about how you worked on the show.

Yeah, sure. Hi. I'm Caitlin Golden, and I helped to produce this season. Hi. I'm Carrie Hartman, also a producer. I'm Monique LeBord. I'm the story editor on the last two seasons of Betrial. I'm Matthew Beckew. I am a sound engineer on Betrial. And I'm Tanner Rubbins. I am one of the audio editors.

“I think a really great place to start is how we found the story in the first place.”

I think this question goes to Caitlin. Can you tell us a little bit about how this season and how Sasuke's story came to be? Yeah. I started at Glass about two years ago as an associate producer when Carrie and Mo were running production on Betrial. And one of my big jobs was going through the email inbox

where people write in with their thoughts about the show, but also most importantly, they're writing with their own stories of Betrial. So Sasuke, she said an email September 24, which is the same month that Josel Pelico went to trial for the rape case of her husband. I actually pulled up her initial email. I want to read it. It's pretty short.

She said, "Hello, I live in Maryland and I was married to hold for it the man of my dreams." Everyone thought he was smart and kind and successful. In-depth, he was doing horrible things to me while I was unconscious night after night and broadcasting this to strangers on a widespread scale in between being the perfect husband father and stepfather. Things only got worse when I found out what he was doing

and we went through a legal battle, raping your wife and quote, "Apparently was not a crime in Maryland." So we had to have police contact tech experts in these camping websites to get the footage for court. I would really like to tell my story. I can still relate to these women that I am watching on your show. Let me know if someone can contact me. I think it would be cathartic for me, heart emoji. Thank you, Sasuke. So yeah, it's taken a year and a half to get

a year where the story is officially out in the seasons over, but it's been a real team effort. Dre, I'm curious when you go back to the moment that you were like this needs to be as season as opposed to a single episode. Is there something that stands out for you? A scene in your mind

“where you first really remember connecting to the story? I think for me the fact that”

he could watch this person spiral, wake up with black eyes, wake up on the bathroom floor, feel like she is going crazy, feel like she is just now destined to walk the same path as her father who struggled with mental health and to know that you were doing something in the dark that could contribute to that is just so cruel. To me, that's why I thought this was a really good season. Like the two things that were happening, light a day, and in the darkness.

The only thing that we've learned throughout the five seasons of betrayal is that perpetrators like their actors, they're acting out the part of a loving husband or a great stepfather,

that all of it, it's like a giant fraud. Yeah, the other aspect of the story that I just was like

from an emotional point of view. I think I've always really wanted to dismantle the idea of the

perfect victim because I feel like we just really default to this understanding of righteous rape that the only person that's worthy of saying I had this crime of rape done to me is this pristine victim that was plucked off the street in this happened. Zasuke's story kind of defies that archetype, but it still doesn't change what happened to her. And so it allowed us to really examine that myth in a really big way, not just through the criminal trial, but really the divorce trial.

“So for that reason, I feel like that's why I really wanted to make this season.”

Totally. What about you? I remember in that initial phone call she's telling the story and then

all of a sudden she gets to the point in her story where he only gets 18 months in jail and she says this was completely legal in my state and I was like, wait, what? How in the world? I think that was the thing that surprised me and shocked me the most this season was the fact that that law was on the books at the time was just it really hit me a little bit because like I don't understand how that could even be. Tanner, you knew nothing going into the season about the

story in the creative. You're literally getting scripts from Caitlin and learning as you go.

Yeah, I usually get the first draft of the episode when it's ready to go into the edit.

Can you tell me what it was like working on this season? What moment most surprised you and what do you feel like was the most impactful? What shocked me maybe the most in the story was a quote

“from the perpetrator Mike, I think it was during the divorce trial. Now he didn't believe in his”

heart that he raped her. Mike is having sex with his unconscious wife. What did he think that he was doing if he was not raping her? What did he think that was? That was what was most shocking to me even after admitting to committing this crime, then go to a different court and say the exact opposite. There is an entitlement there that exists in our society whether or not he knew what the laws were in Maryland, he already felt entitled to her body in a way. However, he wanted it and then

there are laws that exist in the state in which he lives with his wife that emboldened and validate that entitlement. Those two things I think have been interconnected and working for each other since the creation of this country that goes kind of hand in hand to the most impactful thing is that this case and other cases that have come on recently have helped change these laws and these

“laws are changing and I think it's good to see that lawmakers at least are waking up to some of this.”

On the Serving Pancakes podcast, conversations about volleyball go beyond the court. Today we have a little best spring compatibility test. Okay, how long have we been best friends for? Since the day we met, as the lead one volleyball season heads towards its final stretch, there's no better time to tune in. We really are like Yin and Yang, vodka into Kyla. You'll hear unfolded analysis behind the scenes stories and conversations with

leaders making an impact across the sport. Today we have Logan LeMeki. I feel like our fan base in general is very connected. It was like a comforting feeling getting to play at home. Whether you're following the final push of love season or just love the game, Serving Pancakes brings you closer to the action and the people shaping the future of volleyball. Jordan Thompson had that microphone out. It's not too big we make mistakes or cuss at our coach. I'm talking more to you guys.

Open your free, I heart radio app, search Serving Pancakes and listen now. This has been Serving Pancakes and we'll catch you on the side. Okay, presented by Capitol One, founding partner of I Heart Women's Sports. What's up, I'm Austin. And I'm Brianna Stewart.

look at our lives and what we actually think on and off the court. Nothing's off, licks.

We talk, trade requests. What's the vibe of that when it's like your star players like,

“well, I want to leave and then actually now I'm gonna stick. We talk tanking. I mean, honestly,”

like, I'm not getting in trouble for this answer, but I think it's like definitely happening in the WWE. And yeah, we talked about on mistakes too. They pulled me to the side. It was like, hey, man, we got to call last night and you can't be rolling around the city like this tonight for games, no, you know doing this, doing whatever. And of course family stories. It was like,

mommy, why did you miss that? Do you play basketball? Check out game recognized game with

studio miles on the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts. We often talk about amends. What does amends really look like? Once you've understood that you've done something wrong and you deeply hurt somebody, you're operating from a place of harm reduction. What can I do to repair, do less harm and own up to my mistakes? And when you look at how things played out in the divorce, someone who understands that they've done something wrong, understands the

impact of their behavior and actions towards another person would say, you know what? No fault divorce. Let me make this really easy for you. Let me do as little harm in this process to Saskia. That would be the right thing to do. He did not do that. As much as it is to tell Saskia's story, we are in a way telling the Mike Levin good story of what he did to his wife. And I'm a human being.

“I think about the fact that he's trying to rebuild. But I also think about the fact of like what”

has this person done to restore and help support Saskia? This is something Kerry and I have been talking about. So Kerry had produced seasons one through four and when this season came around Kerry actually stepped out to produce another show at Glassburden of Guilt. And that is a redemption arc story. People should go listen to it. The perpetrator genuinely puts in the work to make a men's for something heinous that he did in his past. And something Kerry and I've been talking

about here with season five of the trail. Saskia's story because like we don't set out to demonize these perpetrators. We set out to report the story. Survivors come to us right to us and we work with them. But if there was genuinely an effort that Mike Levin good had made to acknowledge the harm he had done to make a men's, you know, and he did plead guilty. Like he had the opportunity to use that to make a statement to her to not put it through the divorce trial. She did and like you were

saying on dry like he did not take those opportunities. And so we can't report of redemption arc

“because it isn't there. And it's disappointing, honestly. I think the thing that makes this season”

different in terms of that immense and accountability piece is that we're talking about a perpetrator who has gone on to make an entire career off of this criminal past. And to me, the most shocking tape of the entire season comes at the end of episode nine, where you hear tray, recounting the phone call with Mike Levin good. And I was in the room for that call, so I remember it very well. And tray gets on the line tells Mike that we want to tell this story about his business and about

his relationship with Saskia Inwood. And the tone in Mike's voice was just so shocking. Like you could tell he really did not see the connection between what he did to Saskia and what he is doing in his business now. It's like he has had to sever something in his mind in order to move forward

with his life. And that's a privilege that Saskia will never be afforded. I'm so curious. This goes

to the editors. What is your favorite episode of the season? And why? The courtroom, the criminal trial. Maybe it's just because I love tape in the field. It's one thing to hear somebody tell their story. It's another thing to hear it happening in real time. And hearing the judge see through Mike's lies. You know, when you hear defense attorneys and witnesses saying all these things that you know are not true or just being spun in this way. And then to hear the person with the power

Truthfully, I don't have a favorite episode, but I do second a lot of what you said to

dinner. It's always refreshing whenever a judge takes a minute to reprimand somebody who just

thinks that he's flying pretty. It feels like a good moment whenever you get to hear a judge say, actually you're completely wrong. That was definitely impactful for me too. And sometimes you can have all the evidence. The video is the photos. And it's still in may not be enough. But in this case, the judge really saw. And I'm so grateful. Carrie, I was going to ask you, you know, having worked on this show in every iteration of it, having worked with so many different subjects.

“What do you really resonated this season? I think we knew even before the Giselle Pellico”

story came out. This kind of crime is a trend. It's under-reported. And it's probably under-reported because people are too shame-filled to report it. Yeah. And it's under-prosecuted. I really feel good when we are bringing things to the surface that might be uncomfortable

or even unrealized by a good portion of the public. Because you never know when one of our audience

members might be waking up in the morning, unsure of what happened the night before or feeling odd. And it's just information and education that it's okay to question. Totally. And I mean with the idea that this is a trend for me, one of the most impactful parts of this season was talking to all of these other women who had experienced this crime. We did also include these stories of Natalie Ember and Stephanie and watching the three of them in their progression and their healing

journey has been really impactful too. I mean, Dre and I talk all the time about Natalie in particular.

She'd never heard of a story like her own until she heard Stephanie's episodes on Betrayal

Weekly. And when I first got on the phone with her, she was incredibly nervous. And over the course of many, many months, we had lots of conversations back and forth about, do you want to tell your

“story now is later down the line a better time, what level of anonymity do we want to use?”

She eventually felt comfortable. And when we had that round table conversation with all of these other survivors, it was like a different woman was in that room. Like, our hope as a show is always the people that we're working with, we are able to impact their lives in some little way that by helping them tell their story, we are helping them on their healing journey. But I think that was one of the first times where I, as someone who's really new to this field, saw right before

my eyes, like, this is someone who's transformed. There was just a brightness in her face that made me incredibly emotional. I mean, that's the thing. It's realizing that you're not alone. I felt that way when I was listening to the bonus episode with the case updates. Yeah.

“And I honestly got choked up listening to Stephanie at the very end. Spoilers, if anyone”

hasn't listened to that bonus episode, it's an update on Ember Natalie and Stephanie. And when Carrie and I first talked to Stephanie, she was wearing baggy clothes. She chopped off all of her hair. She couldn't even look in the mirror. And she's just now reclaiming her body. And that's the worth that she's done. But to see that happen from meeting her two years ago, it's astonishing to see what she's done in the work that she's put in and how she came out on the

other side. It's cool. It's really cool. When people ask which they often do, oh, it must be so hard to work on stories like this. The antidote for me is really getting to see the healing and the connections and the progress. The survivors are making and to see that the telling of their story was helpful in that is actually more impactful for me in the end than the worst part of their story that we hear. Well, thank you all for your hard work this

season. It was a difficult season to produce. It was an emotional one to produce. And we deal with really tough subject matter, but I'm really proud of the season. And I'm proud of everyone's work on it. And so thank you. For resources on sexual violence, visit rain.org/betrayal. That's R-A-I-N-N.org/betrayal. You can also get free confidential 24/7 support through rain's natural sexual salt hotline.

If you would like to reach out to the Betrayal team or want to tell us your story, email us at

“[email protected]. That is [email protected] or follow us on Instagram @betrayalpod. To access”

additional content and to connect with the Betrayal community, join our [email protected].

We're grateful for your support. One way to show support is by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts.

Don't forget to rate and review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a long way. A big thank you to all

“of our listeners. Betrayal is the production of glass podcasts, a division of glass entertainment”

group, in partnership with iHeartPodcasts. The show is executive produced by Nancy Glass in

Jennifer Fason, hosted and produced by me, Andrea Gunning, written and produced by Caitlin Golden. Our supervising producer is Carrie Hartman. Our story editor is Monique LeBord, also produced

“by Ben Fetterman. Associate producers are Olivia Hewitt and Leah Jablow, production management”

by Kristen Melchieri, additional support by Carrie Richmond. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Crime Check, audio editing by Tanner Robbins with additional editing and mixing by Matt Delvecchio. Special thanks to Sasuke, her friends, and family, and special thanks to Will Pearson and Carrie LeBordman. Betrayal's theme is composed by Oliver Baines, music library provided by my music. And for more podcast from iHeart, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

On the serving pancakes podcast, conversations about volleyball go beyond the court. Today we have a little best friend. How long have we been best friends? As the lead one volleyball season heads towards its final stretch, there's no better time to tune in. You'll hear unfiltered analysis behind the scenes stories and conversations with leaders making an impact across the sport. Whether you're following the final push of love season, or just love the game,

serving pancakes brings you closer to the action and the people shaping the future of volleyball. Open your free iHeart Radio app, search serving pancakes, and listen now.