Did Miami Solve Their Biggest Problem? Mavs Building Around Flagg & Questions For Wolves

- Hello, welcome to Hoop Collective Fivecast. We talked about the NBA which we're doing on Monday morning. I guess it's still morning, we're almost afternoon. As we move through the off season,

joining me from Dallas, Texas is Ben McMahon. - How do partners? - No longer joining us from Dallas, Texas is Clay Thompson, McMahon. - He is out. - Yeah, bought a house here would make the stallion last year

and the relationship in the last, I don't know who's got the house, but Clay is back to a place where he can, you know, I don't know, can you?

“I think he can take the boat to work in Miami,”

can you know? - Can, man, man, like, this is, this was an all-time record early podcast for story time presented by SoFi. Get your money right. - This is really not my story.

It's Tracy McGrady's story that he told me about when the heat tried to sign him for, you know, remember the year that the Grand Hill and Tim Duncan were free agents and there was that crazy year,

the magic ended up getting Tracy McGrady in Grand Hill. Well, Pat Riley was trying to make that deal happen. And so when McGrady went on his recruiting visit to Miami, he took him over to Alonzo Morning's house. Alonzo Morning had a house on the, on the bay.

I don't think it was on the ocean. I think it was on the bay, are the unicorn coasts or whatever you call it there. I think I think further up north, it's called the unicorn coasts,

but it's biscuit and bay down in Miami. And so they hung out at Morning's house and Riley. The way the story I think goes, if I don't have a 100% right, feel free to correct.

- Listen, you've never got at 100% right on these stories,

but that's part of the fun.

“- I know, so I think Riley, like, went away,”

like, dropped them off and they were hung out and they were talking about playing for the heat. You know, Morning has always been a closer for the heat. Even when he left and came back, he was the guy that they brought to the LeBron meeting in Cleveland,

where he, like, the story goes, he got into tears talking about what the Miami he did meant to him in his career. He was retired by that, but, so Morning was sort of, like, they're closer with contracts.

So apparently, when it was, you know, McGree thought that was over, but they weren't going out the front. They went out the back and there was this speedboat there. And the speedboat pulls out and goes,

it's flying down, biscuit bay past American Airlines Arena, as it was known there. Like past all the star aisle and then all the Miami mansions on there, like, you know, glory. I'm sure it was a glorious Miami day in July,

and all the way down to Riley's house,

which he sold years ago, but it was an incredible estate

that he called Casa Riley. It was like this, you know, amazing, you know, Bay front estate.

“He lives, I think, in a apartment complex now.”

I mean, like, the penthouse, but. And so Riley was a bit of waiting for him. Like, there's your tour of Miami, buddy. And, you know, again, I had the contract offer, and T-Mectic, the magic, because he was from the Orlando area.

But yes, you definitely clay. Definitely would have the option. There's a, there's a dot, you know, like, a little, I'm making fun of my lack of nautical knowledge, a port. And, like, a port's the wrong word,

but there's a, you know, a hookup. You can, you can pull right next to Cias Center. - Oh, Captain Clay, baby. - He's back. - Yeah, he can go right, I mean, that, I mean,

it's not even like ceremonial. Like, I remember it's like one of the big days in Miami every year is the marathon day. And, it would be on a Sunday. And, like, when the brawn was playing there,

like they would always, it was like a Sunday,

like in February, and there was ABC afternoon games. So, like, I remember one time, the way for the television crew, the television crew stated a hotel on Keybiscaine. I'm sorry, Brickle Key, which the hotel is now

been imploded. That's a different story, but you can look it up. They'd stand that hotel, and the traffic was so bad and downtown Miami, to get to the arena that they thought there was no way you can get there

by car for this noon tip off or 12, 30 tip off. I think it was against the bulls if I remember correctly. And, so, Derek Rose and the bulls, you know, that was like a big rivalry game back then.

And so, the way that like Mike Green and Doris Burke and Jeff and Gundia Mark Jackson got to the arena, they sent a boat to pick up the hotel. You know, it had to happen, Mike, man, like that's why they couldn't get down

this game Boulevard, it was good to go to. Are you, are you, have you returned to a boat since the great spill? I did, I did.

This is not a setup, you didn't know this.

“I am currently nursing, oh no, a wound on my knee.”

It's gotten better from a boat. My wife was very, so, look, like three, four years ago, I fell on a boat in the Bahamas and cracked a rib. I still am appreciative by the way to the Lakers medical staff who gave me an X-ray,

like a couple of days later because I was in a lot of pain. So, when we were just recently in Italy, we were going on a boat. My wife was petrified, 'cause Mike, man,

not only was it on that particular occasion, I was literally on the dock, getting on to the boat and I slipped and fell into a pole, like a mad, the master, whatever. In this case, and that was pretty embarrassing enough,

but in this case, to get to the boat, we were taking,

and by the way, I have gone on numerous boats since then, it wasn't like, okay, but, don't feel self-conscious. This boat, this boat, you had to take a boat to get to the boat. - Okay. - So, there was a small little boat. - So, you were on it, you were going on a yacht?

- No, it wasn't a yacht, it was a nice little boat. Anyway, that boat was too big to pull up to the dock that we were leaving in Italy. And so, I had to get a boat to a so many different transfers from the dock to the launch to the main boat.

And I navigated all that just fine, but when I went swimming on the boat, McMahon, as I was getting back up on to the boat, I slept and suffered a knee injury, which was quite bloody.

- Oh, Lordy. - So, yeah, that's okay, I'm still getting better, it's like three weeks removed. - I almost chopped my big left toe off, putting a pool lounge chair together.

Droped on my toe, and it was squirting blood. That was a wild bad. - Anyway, Clay, I'm sure, has no such problems getting on and off his boat. - I don't know, Clay, Clay smoothers can be.

- With the same boat go, did the same boat go from San Francisco to Texas

“or did he have a different boat in Dallas on the lake?”

- I don't think he ever brought a boat to the lakes down here. I think I'm almost certain his boat. I think he took it down to LA. - Okay.

- As you remember, there was the game where they played the lake, there was the front end of a back to back, and then he was ruled out the next morning, and then some time in the afternoon, he went from out to in, you know,

like he was out on the official injury report, and then they changed, it was like, I forgot what it was, like a rest or whatever, and then he, what happened was he went out on the water, jumped in the water, he was with his cocapped and at the time,

maybe, and you know, just the thing like I'm not on, like we may be way out of line, we may be way behind this all may have been taken care of on, you know, on the internet. But as I recall his boat was called the SS stallion.

- He did, he, I mean, I don't know what happened to the SS. - This was when he went out and took a ride on the stallion, got wet, decided he was ready to go and came out and had 23 points, actually one of his best games

in a matter of its uniform, that next night. But look, man, to get back to the basketball side of things. - Yes, like he's, let's do. - Clearly, things did not go clay's way in Dallas. He signed up for one situation and ended up very soon

in a completely different one. He signed up to get spoon-fed wide open threes by arguably the best creator in the league, and then they went and tried to look a dodge, right? And so if clay would have known,

they were gonna trade Luca midway through his first season of a three year deal, he would have gone elsewhere. They didn't know they're gonna trade, he was gonna trade Luca to the lakeers, he would have signed with the lakeers,

who offered a more money. - Well, I don't remember what the lakeers offered him,

“but if you remember, I think the Warriors offered him”

two years and 48 million, so 24 a year.

- That was as an extension of our recall crack. - Correct. I mean, I don't, you know, maybe not at the very end, but he had that option. He turned that down and then the Maverick signed him

for three and 50. - Yeah, three for like 51, and look, this deal with the heat is, it works out to two, for about 11 and a half. - Let's go over the money in a second,

but I mean, just to finish your thought about how this didn't work out the way the Maverick's or Clay thought so. - Again, he was coming in to hopefully be the final piece on a team that was arguably,

to give the Celtics a real series in the finals, and then the most inexplicable trade and MBA history changed everything.

“- Yeah, he shot 39% the last two years in Dallas.”

- Yeah, and you know, he's just, at this point, his career, he's a shooting specialist.

He used to be an amazing, like Hall of Fame,

two-way win. He used to be one of the best wing defenders in league, as well as one of the best shooters in MBA history. And a guy who could do a little bit off the dribble and you know, whatever, he can't,

he can't do anything off the dribble anymore. You know, he's, you gotta protect him defensively now, and instead of being a guy who can put on the other teams best perimeter score, but the heat, as desperate for shooting,

is in his canner is for attention. - Oh, no. - And so like clay on a low-cost relatively low-cost deal does make sense for Miami, because he can still catch and shoot, he's still got a quick release,

he's still a guy who you're sure not gonna leave him alone out on the wing or in the corner. - Yeah, so last year, he made the transition to being a bench player. That was a, that was a bit of a clunky thing

that had to happen. So not only was he not playing with Luke, he was no longer starting, which needed to happen in his career. - It did.

And honestly, I thought it might be an issue. He handled it like a total pro, like clay, he was a total pro in Dallas. Now, could he get a little moodier or whatever depending on the shots you're firing at,

sure, he didn't gripe, he didn't bench, he didn't moan about coming off the bench, he understood it was a rebuild, he kinda poured himself in to try to be like a good vet for Cooper Flag, nobody in Dallas can complain about the way clay conducts himself, that's for sure.

- All right, so let's talk a little bit about,

“so here's the thing, the mavericks were sitting around”

with Clay Thompson at 17, what was his number? - 17 and a half. - 17.5 million. They had 16 guaranteed roster, guys on their roster. So they had some point that mavericks were going to have

to offload a player. - Yeah, it's actually 15 guaranteed plus the moose to see say, which isn't a guarantee, but like he needs to be on the roster. - Right, they matched moose to see say his offer sheet.

So at some point that mavericks did have to move off of a little player, however I don't think, I mean, they had other options than clay. - And then they perhaps have talked about trades with the guys, but none of that stuff is materialized.

- Well, one of the things, and this is, you know, this I'm sure is annoying to veteran players, but one of the things that when you talk to executives is, you know, when they evaluate contracts, they say, well, on the last year of the deal,

that'll at least be a big expiring. And, you know, when you look at the mavericks this year, you know, they have some guys on expiring contracts, like, for example, like Santiago Dama, but they're not, they don't want to trade him.

And, you know, they have some of the other guys they have, like, Marcus Sasser or smaller numbers. There was a real, you know, interesting. I guess theoretically Zachary Rishishay is an expiring contract right now,

but I'm sure they're gonna pick up his option. I can't see them not picking up his option. But they were sitting around, you know,

and having a $17 million expiring contract,

you know, even if it's a shooter hall of favor in Clay Thompson,

“it's not the worst way to go about your season, you're planning.”

And so there was, you know, while it was clear that Clay was interested in leaving, and it was also clear that that's what the heat we're waiting for. The heat was sitting there with multiple

and roster spots with guys that they, you know, tomorrow, the roads was interested in going there. They've got this backup center, Nick Richards, who I think might end up going there. Because these guys sort of waiting around,

they're heat were waiting because they wanted Clay. And, you know, but it was a question of, you know, would the Mavericks do a deal because there were, you know, in addition to having them on the roster

and having a guy who can hit a bunch of threes, which is not nothing, he had certain benefit. - More whoop, collective podcast after this. - So, Nick, man, this was a real negotiation. And we know it was a negotiation

because of how much money Clay gave up. - Yeah, I mean, I believe my scottos,

the first report, he gave up $9.8 million.

And look, a typical buyout in the NBA is, the guy gives up what he's getting, right? He gave up significantly more than his getting from a man. - Also, $9.8, I don't know for sure.

Go ahead. - Go on, what are you saying? - Well, the number at 9.8.

“- So, this is according to Bobby Marx numbers,”

that gets the Mavericks to where they are $12.1 million under the tax. Now, why is that number important? They have, they have their non-tax pyramid level, which is, you know, $12.04.

So, basically, instead of having Clay's $17.5 million

is an expiring, they save a bunch of, they get out of the tax. And they basically have opened up to where their mid-level exception, their full moon, or I'm sorry, the non-tax pyramid level exception

can function as a trade exception. - Right, because the, your mid-level exception, just to be clear, for years, it was just something you could use to sign a player or multiple players, you could break it up into pieces.

In the current CBA, you can now use it as a trade exception. You can now use that mid-level as to take in players. And that was clearly the threshold, because my point is, 9.8 million isn't it's a, it's kind of a random number.

How much do you give up 5 million? How much do you give up 7 million?

The Mavericks clearly wanted that $9.8 million number.

That was because it enables them to have that full mid-level to use. And for the Mavericks to, you know, to buy them out, they had to benefit from it. They had to, it had to help them as they're trying

to put together. - Right, it's not just about saving the money. I mean, certainly anybody will take free 10 million dollar savings, but there was specifically something the Mavericks were holding the line on,

and it was to get to that number. Okay, that's number one. - And so for Clay, I also was worth four plus million dollars to base, he put himself in a position where he thought,

yeah, let's take the full 360 degree view of it. So the heat sign to a two-year deal,

worth about 11 and a half million.

“The first year of this deal is 5.6 million, I believe.”

And so the thing about it is, like if he were going from another team, like let's say the Lakers to the heat, you could say, well, there's no state income tax in Florida, and you know, it's actually a minute,

in this case, it's a, it's a straight $4 million give up, 'cause there's no state income tax in Texas. So Clay really wanted to get out of it. And the reason that, you know, the heat did something somewhat interesting.

So after they acquired Yass Tenicumpo, they were sitting there with Andrew Wiggins on a, on a player option. And one of the things that I and a lot of other people thought that they would do is that they would,

get Wiggins to bypass that player option and negotiate a brand new multi-year contract that took his salary down in the first year of the deal, to enable them some more maneuvering. As salary this year is 28 million.

So it was like, well, I could opt out of that and they could negotiate downward. The heat did something pretty interesting. And it just just shows you that they're pretty, they're pretty savvy to heat.

- They, the front office knows what it's doing. - Right. So they, I take that back, 'cause salary this year is 30 million.

It was 20 Lakers, it's 30 million this year. So the heat told Wiggins, go ahead and pick up that contract option. And he did for 30 million and then they gave him a new two-year extension

on top of that for 34 million. So what that means is that Wiggins contract is gonna fall way down after this year. In fact, let me get the exact numbers what it's gonna be.

- 16.15 and 17.32. - So it's contract goes in half basically year over year. I would they do that, like man.

“I think it's because if the heat had more room”

under the apron, then they could get into, they would have to be moved into bidding wars with players. If they only have a certain amount of money, they only have a certain amount of money.

Like listen, you wanna come play in Miami? We've only got five million they give you. That's what we have. We're not, we're not trying to negotiate. So, and look, it works, Clay Thompson wanted to be in Miami.

He liked the idea of playing on that team and the role that they had. And to do what he was willing to take a haircut. - Listen, Clay wants to get good looks at threes in Ivarium on a team that has a chance to contend.

That's when he left Golden State, that's exactly what he was looking for. That's why he came to Dallas. - And if the team, and if the place isn't in a place where there's nice voting options, that wouldn't be.

- Even better. And that's obviously that the part of the equation here is listen.

there are always going to be attractive

“and that's top of that list is that the lake is in the heat.”

- Well, that I'm just gonna say this. That Andrew Wiggins and Clay Thompson at one point were on under contract for like $48 million combined of this year. Okay.

Now, granted, next year is a player option on Clay. I have no idea what will happen. But the heat of now got them into a situation where they've got them this year for $35 million. So they've already been maneuvered nicely there.

And then next year, Wiggins and Thompson are potentially under contract for $23.24 million. - $22 million. - $25 million. I am. And so, when you've got Yoseteno Kumpo and Bam at a bio combining to earn like $110 million

next year, maybe it's even more than that, the way that you, and this is, this is reality for all teams. You've got to find ways on the margins. And this is the heat trying to work on the margins. - And they've added two legitimate high volume three point

shoes this summer. Exactly, like, and by the way, - Hardaway and Thompson.

“- And they got hardaway for six million.”

So look at this. When after the Yoseteno straight happen, people were saying, they've got to get shooting. They've got to get shooting. Well, Clay made 202/3 last year.

Clay played 69 games last year. He made 202/3 pointers. Tim Hardaway played 80 games last year. Made 224 three pointers. I have no idea how many games are gonna play this season.

They're both in their thirties. I have no idea how many threes they're gonna hit. But these two guys combined hit 227/3 pointers last year. 226/3 pointers last year.

And the heat got them for $11 million dollars,

or $12 million dollars combined. That's just good business. You know, and if you're, if you're gonna have BAM and Yonis, how do you get out of that? And also I'll point out, you know, the Wiggins thing,

Wiggins had a very good three point shooting season last year. Wiggins, let me see here. 41% I believe. That's his career. He made 138/3 pointer.

So between the three of them. And again, this is last year not playing together. They were playing on three different teams. I'm not saying they're gonna get this same amount. But last year between the three of them,

it made 564/3. So I don't think you can say that the heat have a problem with three points shooting anymore. Now, it's got to play out. Yeah.

And Fantekio is a solid 3.0 shooter. David Mitchell wasn't a high volume people. So he shot it well last year. I, you know, he Mitchell of those guys, he's the one where I do think that team

will still kind of live with him getting these two. He shot 40% but he only took three again. So you're playing on your BAM brandy for the season.

“And honestly, you know, and then some of it,”

like they're young guys that they hope to become big time players for Nicole Yove, which shot a 27% that's, that's not great. - Well, Yove is just one of these guys. - It's going to be 2%.

- This is why I could never work in a front office

of the-- - 'Cause you loved his contract when he signed it? - No, not the contract. I loved him as a player. I watched him play in the 2023 World Cup for the first Serbia, and he was awesome.

And I loved everything he did. And if I worked for a team, I would have run back to my GM and said, you've got to get Nicola Yovech, get him at all costs. And they haven't been able--

They signed with that contract extension, and they haven't been able to play him basically. - You know, he's 23 years old. It's not like it's time to put his grades don't up or anything, but--

- No, of course, it just, yeah. - And notice they did this Yannis deal, and the buck's pretty much had their pick of anybody on the roster who wasn't named Bamet a bio, and they ended up, you know, they didn't do that deal.

He wasn't in the deal. - Yeah, and listen, the mavics didn't want to trade clay for him. You know, the contract's not looking good now, but again, he's 23 years old, but him and Lars and are both at this point,

not threats from three point range, but they added a bunch of veteran shooting. Body-ported junior is a, he's a three point threat for sure. I think the shooting is, you know, again, you're counting on older guys to stay healthy

and all that kind of stuff, and hopefully with some of these guys to not further decline. But the shooting they've addressed, the biggest concern now, I think on the roster's

- I agree, I agree.

“- You know, Yannas is as for a power for us, obviously,”

an elite playmaker, but Nadia Mitchell's not a playman. They don't have a lot of playmaking outside of Yannas at this point. - Let's sort of assess where Miami is on their roster and then we'll do Dallas a little bit too here. So Miami, now with this deal,

they have $5 million under the first apron,

and they are a hard cap that the first apron, because they traded out, they traded for more money than they sent out in the Yannas deal. So they're hard cap to add it. There's a bunch of different things

that trigger hard cap in the first apron, and this is one of them. And so they've got two roster spots left, and they've got $5 million total. That's all they can spend.

And that's one of the reasons why they had to get clay, you know, until they signed clay, they had three roster spots left. Now they have to fill one. You don't, you can leave the 15th open,

“and the heat may end up leaving the 15th open.”

For a while, just to see what happens. They have been attached to Nick Richards,

who has a third string center,

wouldn't surprise me if he, you know, he'll go there sort of on the minimum. But I do think that they will be looking, because, you know, the other guy at the sort of the other guard, they had, we haven't talked about it in Larson,

is Drew Smith, who's a point guard, but he's more of a combo guard. And so you're right, I do think that Miami will be on the lookout for, for Ball Headling. And it may not happen in October.

Like, they may just be on the lookout for somebody who springs forward during the year, which is why the 15th roster spot may there be left open or a straight nine guarantee. So, but the other thing I want to just point out,

just because we know it'll be a topic of conversation. For example, like, there's still players being coming contract extension eligible. I think by next week, you'll start to see Steph Curry's name come up because, sorry, I'm a 29th of August,

he's extension eligible for his contract. I have argued that it's possible that, or it should be at least considered. And I'm sure it is being considered. That clay, not sign, or that Steph,

not sign as contract extension right now. Of course, if he wants to sign his contract extension right now,

he can get two years and, I think, 140 million.

“Obviously, if that's what he says he wants,”

you're going to give it to him. But if he doesn't sign his contract extension right now, the warriors could have over a hundred million dollars in salary cap space next summer, because he, Jimmy Butler, and Dramond are all in the last years

of their contracts. And Chris Hapsport's Nengas Steel is not fully guaranteed. And it's not that I'm thinking to Steph's going to take a LaBron deal. But you're going to get the contract whenever you want it. Why not leave optionality open?

But anyway, that would be what we will talk about in the coming days. Yannis doesn't become contract extension eligible until January 6th. And so he can sign for three years and 214 million if he opts into the player option he's got for next year.

And so that's one way to go. If he declines the option and does a whole new deal, which, you know, if that's what he wants to do, that the heater probably not going to fight him on it, it's four years and 275, McMahon.

Let me do the math on that. That's a way above my ability. It's almost 79 a year. That's a nice contract. Bobby says that he, if he actually picks up the option

and then signs for three more seasons, he can get a hair more money. So he, he may actually do that. But whether or not, whether the heat try to get some maneuvering on that'll be interesting to see how that goes.

But just should just be known that Yannis's extension, which the reason he said he was cool with going to the heat was that the intent of signing an extension. And when the heat traded all that stuff to get him, the intent is to examine to an extension.

Just know that it can't happen until January. - Yeah, the intent to sign an extension, we're also the reason that his cool goal in the heat because he felt like it was possible to contend there. And then you get into the conversation

of do you, do you max out on what you can make or do you, as we've seen with Bronson, as we've seen with women, Yama, work with the franchise where you leave some kind of flexibility. - It'd be interesting.

Well, we'll just see how that plays out, but it's months away from now. And I will say this. It's like the heat may not win all their games. Some of these moves may backfire, whatever.

They may have plans to go awry. They may be counting on guys who don't deliver. I can go on and on.

But one thing I will tell you with certain teamic man

is no one's gonna outthink to Miami Heat. The execution might not happen, but it won't be because they're outthought. - They've spent the last several years plotting to get a superstar who would give them a chance

to put a contender around them. And they pulled that off with the honest, so they pulled off the hardest part. And there's worked, they'll be an interesting team this year. I don't see them being a bonafide contender.

Maybe I'll be wrong. Maybe they'll surprise me. Obviously a lot of that, the frankly depends on the Jonas Play 62 games, does he play 75? Like I don't know.

But there's at least hope for the heat of being a relevant team in the playoff picture again. And that hadn't been the case for, for, and for years. - Right, okay, now let's take a look at the Mavericks after this has happened.

You mentioned that the Mavericks have 12 million

of their mid-level exception. They also have 12 million below the luxury tax. It's fascinating how that all lined up with this buyout. But their roster is full. There's two players I'm looking forward to

when you go to Mavericks media day that we get updates on. One is obviously Kyrie, who's boy, he's gonna be 18, 19 months off of his torn ACL at the start of training camp. - Yeah, March 24. And you'll look, this one of those deals

where if the Mavericks were a competitive team last year,

“I think Kyrie probably would have come back late in the season.”

They weren't, so it made no sense for anybody for a Kyrie to come back. But he's been, you know, he's been going full, though, this summer, and he should be ready to, I don't know, I can't sit here and tell you

if there'll be rust or not. But I think you get a healthy Kyrie Irving. - Yeah. - And the other is Derek Lively, who has had unfortunate series of foot injuries

and was shut down early last season and has been out nine or 10 months coming off of foot surgery. And look, the Mavericks have a bunch of big men, including Santiago Dama, who they traded for this off season.

But Lively was a significant force in their finals team. And, you know, how he looks, you know, he was a super athlete big man. And, you know, you don't like any bigs with foot problems, but especially a guy whose whole game is predicated

on his quickness. So Lively, and leap in ability. - Correct. So also seeing where Lively is, you know, maybe not on day one of the season,

“but what his prognosis is is also relatively important”

to the maths. - Yeah, you would love to be able to pencil in 22-year-old Derek Lively as a long-term piece of the foundation. You've obviously seen his potential.

He's seen his production and his impact. Unfortunately, like at this point, it's very much a wait and see you can hope, but you can't bank on Lively as he's going into the final year of his rookie deal.

- Yeah, so the thing about Dallas, the question you ask yourself is, are they done? You know, are they done? And, obviously, have made a couple of significant moves with Messiah's eerie.

- I mean, to find done, done for the off season. Yeah, and I, yeah, probably just because of how late it is,

but you never say never, and obviously this roster

is very much a work and progress. I want they did this summer. They, you know, it was a lot of singles this summer. - Well, they extended NaGi Marshall as well. - Next to NaGi Marshall, they traded for all Dom,

I used in the an exception from the AD deal. You know, they traded for Rousseau Schae, I forgot exactly what that exception came from. They traded for Marcus Sastron and other exception. You know, these are all singles,

like the Rousseau Schae thing. It's a single that maybe, you know, you're hoping maybe you can leg that thing out and get a double out of it. It's obviously an upside play for a guy

who was a number one pick. Tough to be the number one pick sandwich between a women y'all and a flag, but that, you know, that's what he was. You know, there's a reason the hots

were willing to part with him for a couple seasons, but you know, six foot tan has some potential there. But this is like, nothing about the, about the Mavericks is about next season. This is about trying to build long-term

around a kid who's still 19 years old in Cooper Flag.

“- Right, so that's why the question isn't so much”

about whether the Mavericks are done between now and October 1st.

and February 1st, both with?

- It's a weird roster. Yeah, this is a roster. There's not a lot of playmaking on him. And Kyrie is like really, he's more of a, he's a two-guard.

He's obviously an elite ball handler, but he's more of a two-guard than a point guard, but he'll do your point guard. Cooper Flag is kind of a point forward. Most of those share a lot of that, and Haji Marshall can handle some of that,

but you know, not a lot of playmaking outside that. You know, they got this kid coming in, Sergio Del Rey, I hope you'll be a rookie, we'll see. They traded Ryan Nymhard in that research aid deal, which was really the, the Ludor Deal to the Hawks.

“And then, honestly, they've got a ton of power forwards.”

- Yeah, they drafted, I've a live a lottery pick, man, more as Johnson. - Yeah, and I wonder, I'm curious to see, is he getting more time at center than power forward? I've been, you know, we'll see.

I think some of that's probably gonna depend on life, he's health and availability. I'm Daniel Gapford's health and availability.

- Here's the thing about the Mavericks.

They're kind of dealing with three different situations here. There's like three different sort of wings of, or not wings, 'cause that's the wrong word. There's three different sort of branches, branches, because you have the remnants of the team

was in the finals that was being built around Luca. So, you know, that's lively, that's PJ Washington, right? That's Daniel Gaffard. - Daniel Gaffard. - Kyrie.

- Kyrie, oh my god, Kyrie, all right? And then you have the fact that they, you know, lightning bolt get Cooper flag. So you have, you know, now the new mandate, which is now you build around him.

And those two things don't really go together all the time. Certain players are gonna fit together. But, and then you have the fact that you've now changed over your front office, and now you have Messiah's Eury in there. - Completely flip the front office, completely flip the coaching staff.

- Right, exactly. Didn't even get into that. You flip the whole new coaching staff. It's almost like four whole different branches. So, if you're a rival front office,

“and that's why you've heard Gaffard's name,”

and you've heard PJ Washington's name and trades, there's very likely a chance that there's going to be further further retrofitting. And so, if you're a team out there, you're watching this situation closely.

You're watching Kyrie. - And even Naji, Naji's extension was, are he still trade eligible to seize? - I didn't even know that. - Yeah.

- I mean, I don't think Naji will be traded. I do think that they signed the extension with the intent to keep them, but they left a little room with that. - That was a pretty fascinating little Friday deal there

with Clay Thompson. More who collected podcast after this. (upbeat music) - Also, at the end of last week, I don't know if you knew McMahon,

but we have another new owner. How many, like this is the new thing, that the franchise flipped. Like the NBA franchiseer, they're like little fixer uppers.

You know, and this was a bigger profit in terms of valuation than even the makers. - Okay, so, yes. So it depends on your death. It depends on your definition of the word flip,

because a flip is something where you're like, I'm gonna get it fixed up and immediately sell it. That was not what Mark Walter was trying to do. I see the people, I see people say, like, oh, what great business by Mark Walter,

he had him for a year, and he made two billion profit. No, that it was not good business. He was selling because he needed the money. Regardless of how that comes out. It's funny, like you think of like Bill Chism,

who is the controlling owner of the self-ex. He's like, he's rackin' up seniority. - Oh, tell us, yeah. He's like, I've been the owner for a whole year and a half. Like, Mark Lori's been more time fighting for the right

to be the wolves owner than it is actual wolves owner.

- Okay, so here's the thing.

So Mark Lori, who's a friend of the pot, it came on our podcast in Las Vegas, sold the team.

“So, all right, here's the thing about the Timberwolves.”

The Timberwolves were sold, and then they were sold in pieces. The bankers call it Tronches. - Make man, they were sold in Tronches. - Okay, whoa, we don't have the fancy language. - And between when the wolves were agreed to be sold,

and when they actually were sold after a battle and arbitration, that wasn't really a court battle, because that implies you're in front of a judge, it was a battle of arbitration. But by the time the beginning of it to the end of it,

it became an outrageously good deal for Mark Lori and Alex Rodriguez. And really the controlling owner was Mark Lori. Alex Rodriguez was his partner, but it was mostly Lori's money.

like Michael Bloomberg, for example, Skyarch Schmidt, who was made a bunch of money with Google. But by the time the day that they won that arbitration and were able to get the team, they had some of the best,

it was one of the best equity moves in Lee history. When I say by equity is, when Glenn Taylor agreed to sell the team,

he agreed to $1.5 billion.

Three plus years later, the team was worth over four. From the day they set the day that they agreed to the deal, he had hundreds of millions of dollars in equity. He had his own personal stake, and the team itself had billions of dollars in equity.

It was crazy. And the thing about Glenn Taylor, Glenn Taylor tried to sell the wolves in about 2012. And now it's that he had an owner to come in. A guy who was a part owner of the Grizzlies.

“And I think he was going to sell the team back then”

for about 400 million, give or take. Maybe it was $300 million. And then that deal fell apart. Long story short, that deal fell apart. And then he said, you know what I'm not going to sell it.

Had that deal gone through, he had made three or $400 million. And I've been happy and whatever. But because that deal fell apart, he held them for another decade. And he tripled his money again. And still went out kicking the screaming.

Exactly. And then if he just held it for three more years, he would have tripled his money again. So anyway, but also this is why I'm sorry.

I never cry for the owner who's got to pay a big tax bill.

We're not like if you can't afford it, sell the team. You'll make a massive profit. So this is the where the nuance comes in. The nuance is that year to year, you don't realize the gains.

And year to year as teams lose money. And their owner has to write gigantic checks. And it typically happens in August.

“The August is when you have to pay your tax bill and stuff.”

And you, they can look you square in the eye and say, I'm dying here. I'm losing tens of millions. That is a true statement. But of course, they're holding is gaining a bunch of value.

But if they never sell, and if they don't sell for 30 years, like if you look at the longest standing owners, the longest standing owner, if you know who it is, by the way, little trivia time, long to stand the owner. That's good.

I don't have time ahead out, Mickey Erison. Erison, his father, he inherited the team when his father died in 1995. So that's, you know, 31 years. That's a long time.

Ryan's dwarf. He is second. Ryan's dwarf, Doug got control of the bulls in 1985. This gentleman and his brother bought the Indiana Pacers in 1983. Herb sign.

Here you go. OK.

“Brother Mel, his brother Mel's passed away for a long time.”

Herb is in his 90s. It looks pretty good. We just saw it. He was there for all the stuff in the finals a couple years ago. So when you look at it, like, you look at, like,

Rick Schnaul and Gave Plock and he bought the Hornets back in 2023, there's been, like, five, 16 sales since then. The lake has been sold twice. Yes. You know, I mean, even going back to that line, like,

you know, like, the lake has been sold twice. The Celtics have been sold, like, not just teams being sold, like flagship franchise. Correct. Correct.

So anyway, among the, so Mark Laurie had to raise money to, to finish that purchase for 1.5 billion. And he took on some partners. One of them was Michael Bloomberg. One of them was, was Eric Schmidt, as I said,

and one of them was this gentleman, who's from the Bay Area, hedge fund guy, Mark Stodd. And Mark is now taking over as controlling owner at a 4.5 billion dollar valuation. Which I don't know exactly, like, I don't know what that means

in terms of what kind of money he actually had to give up here. Like, how much of a percentage he had to buy from Laurie to become a control owner? Right. We don't know yet. You know, and I don't even 100% know how big Laurie's stake was.

But Laurie didn't make $3 billion. But he absolutely, whatever he, if he had $100 invested, he's getting back to, you know, for every $100 invested, he's getting probably back about $3.50. He made a hand some profit, and he still has a,

a sliver of the franchise.

And here's the thing, over the last couple of years,

And let's be honest, if not for the trailblazers, there'd have been a lot of talk about how cheap the timber wolves were with some of the chatter around the league. Well, cheap is relative because the wolves have lost a ton of money.

They have paid a ton of luxury tax the last couple of years. And some catering bills, whether they like to or not. Right. Well, the, here's the problem that the wolves are in. So the wolves, and this is what I would say to, and I have said to people in Portland,

“you have to be careful about doing a limited renovation”

of an arena, okay? Because certainly there are arenas that have been renovated that are in great condition, that extended their life and everything like that. But the target center got a renovation

about five years ago. And it went from being a bottom five arena to being a bottom five arena. (laughs) I was wondering how much of an upgrade you were gonna give me.

And I mean, it's not a dump, don't, don't, don't get wrong. It's not a dump, but just the bones of it don't, they don't have the, this is very hoodie talk, but they don't have the ability to have the amenities that are common for NBA franchises.

- Right. And so, they have, they paid a lot, they lost a lot of mine the last couple years, paid a ton in tax, and they're not really in position to squeeze more money out of their own order of their arena, because they just had a publicly supported arena renovation

a couple of years ago.

“And so, the only way you're getting a totally new arena”

situation is probably if you pay for it yourself. And that was hard to get that. And if you remember the Minnesota Vikings

had to basically threaten to, you know,

to move the team before they got funding for their stadium and their stadium is hosted super balls and final fours and stuff like that. And so, it's a bit of a challenging, it's a challenging economic situation.

The wolves. And so, I think Lori is flipping out of it. What I, all that stuff is fine for, you know, you know, forums at a sports business conference. What does it mean in the near term?

Well, what it could, the question that you have for Mark Stodd is, you know, and we don't have the answer to this yet, make man. Is he how willing is he to continue paying the luxury tax? Because the wolves were an organization

that for decades didn't pay the tax.

“And they didn't pay the tax for a reason”

because they're market. - The roster as of now without a starting power for it on it, which I don't know if they can fix that or not. But right now they're set to pay $25.5 million in taxes here. - What did you have in four to the last two years?

Do you have that up? - I do not. - Okay, I'll find out. But it's, they paid tens of millions of dollars last couple of years in taxes.

And from what I understand lost tens of millions of dollars, they were totally soaked in red.

And look, here's the thing.

Ant Edwards does do a contract extension. He's eligible for an extension next summer. So, this is a very important year. Additionally, Tim Connelly, their general manager, who really held, I mean,

Ant Edwards drove the turnaround of the team, but Tim Connelly put the pieces in place to have this team have a couple of two or three of its best years of his franchise history. - The first big win of the Lori A. Ron Arrow

was getting Tim Connelly. - Correct, that was a huge thing for them. They paid him very aggressively for it. So here's the thing about Tim Connelly. He is in the last year of his contract.

If he wanted to, I'm sure you could sign an extension. He is not signed to the extension. Here's the other thing. When Tim Connelly was brought on board, he was given something called Phantom Equity.

He was basically like given a stake in the team, but he didn't actually get, he didn't actually get shares of the team. He got the equivalent of shares in the team that if he completed his contract,

he would get a giant bonus. That bonus is in the five figures,

and it is not 10 million, okay?

It's a very, it's a very sizable bonus. And he gets he vests and gets that bonus

So he is highly incentivized to work out this contract. He is not necessarily highly incentivized to sign an extension. And so there are two people that the wolves have to worry about, keeping Tim Connelly because he's been so important.

And then make, and then that's second to keeping N Edwards.

And there are teams that has traded away draft capital, and they're really going heavy. They went heavy in on the mellow ball. So they need the mellow ball and Edwards partnership to work. They need their investment in Jake McDaniels

and Rudy Gobert to work. They need N Edwards to resign next year. And that was the whole point that make a room to sign a, it was the whole point of the maneuver and they did this summer.

You know, it was, hey, let's keep Ann happy. And wanted to play with the mellow ball.

“That's what they went on, got the mellow ball.”

So actions over words, Mark Laurie's ops out. So, you know, it's going to be a very high stakes year for the wolves and their future after this year is uncertain and the owner's salt. Yeah, and the lemellow trade caused the volatures

to stop circling over the target center, hoping to pounce on Ann, but they still know the route. They still know how to get there. Right. So, you know, it's a significant thing, you know,

I mean, I think from a business standpoint, nobody could blame Laurie for, for selling.

I mean, it's really amazing.

The guy was able to buy the control and share of an MBA franchise at a discount rate on layaway. And then, yeah, not just at a discount rate, but at a discount rate on layaway. Yeah, and then make three times profit.

Not only that, but when he got control of the team, the team had their two best years of their franchise. Yeah, that's great, that's great timing. He would probably say, yeah, and I wrote tens of millions and checks, you know, to pay for it all.

But, you know, yeah, and so now he's selling it. But like the fact that they have these headwinds,

“is that it, is that it to politically correct word?”

Can I say they have headwinds coming? You can say whatever you want. They have headwinds ahead, doesn't mean you can't navigate them. But there's headwinds coming. Well, there's headwinds coming and for all the reasons

we laid out, and then also, the goal is to be on the level with the thunder and the spurs. And that's going to be tough to do. And that's true for the walls and every other team, the Western Conference, we've talked about the nuggets,

the lakers, you can go on down the list. Let me address something about that. So over the last few days, there was a Twitter account that announced that the walls are very soon going to move to the Eastern Conference.

And it's going to be great. And Edward's not going to have to do it with Victor Wembanyama.

“That trickled into my world when like producer is at ESPN.”

We're like, are the, are the walls going to be at the Eastern Conference in the next eight minutes? You know, because it was a completely irresponsible post. By a guy who nobody's ever seen in person. So let me just clear this up, if the MBA expands.

And if the MBA expands for two teams, which, both things I would say are probable slash likely, but are not a certain yet. If that happens, there will be a need to move one team. And oh, by the way, if it's also Vegas and Seattle,

which actually they've already said to Vegas and Seattle. So the MBA will need to move one team to the Eastern Conference. If they even remain in a 15 or a 16, 16 conference alignment. Like who's to say they're even 100% going to go with conferences on each side.

If if if, but if that does happen and they go with a 16 team, he's in a 16 team west, there would be three teams, you know, logically, that could want to move these and know the three teams that are on the Mississippi River, Minnesota, Memphis and New Orleans. Now, if you have a map and you can see Minnesota's proximity

to a bunch of Eastern teams, like Chicago, Milwaukee, Indiana, Detroit, Cleveland, et cetera, et cetera, it does make a lot of sense for it to be Minnesota that would move. But I promise you, Memphis and New Orleans would also be very interested

in doing that because of the historic East First West in balance.

But and maybe that could happen.

So they got to find out whether Ann Edwards is resigning.

So yes, after all that, there is a pathway that exists for the timber wolves to potentially be an Eastern conference team. But there's a lot to happen between now and then. And a lot more things to worry about about trying to be Wembon, Yamaha 4/7. So I just want to clear that up because that was out there.

And it could end up being correct, like, you know, three years from now. That individual could say, hey, I told you three years ago. I had the scoop, but like this one was like, and we're just got it made. You know, thumbs up, like, like, here we go.

“And by the way, I believe the champion of the league came out of these last year too.”

I also have been being told that the Eastern conferences better than the West of the year.

I've been told that numerous times over the years, but yes, nothing is a guarantee.

So that's all. No, there's a guarantee. There's a guarantee that there will be some kind of social media activity that really ruffles your feathers every single week. That's true. Probably every single day, although not so much in August.

Now, social media activity today is the head or the starting quarterback for the Cleveland Browns. Oh, man. That's a hell of a situation. You get in your hometown.

Yeah. Either way.

We'll move every home game.

Either way, they're going to stick. So it's great for it.

“It's great for people in our business, for talk radio, people in our business, because”

it's a tremendous thing, but I don't think it's going to affect the final record. So, all right, Mick, man, thank you very much for this enlightening conversation about the Mavericks and the heat and the Timbles. Well, thank you very much, Wendy. Thank you.

Thank you. I hope you do well on golf this week. I'm playing in a couple of hours, so here, I played absolutely dreadfully in Scotland two weeks ago. Sorry to hear that.

I had holes where I lost three balls on one hole that happened twice, and then I played on Sunday, and I played maybe my best round of the year. I didn't lose a ball back here in Omaha. How hot is it in Omaha, right? No, it's glorious in the mids 90s mid 80s.

It's like 180 Dallas, right? You can have it. You can have it chill. I recommend it's prayer post injury. Oh, good.

Good question, Jackson. The injury was not a, I mean, it was all post injury, but it was not affecting my golf game.

“It was, I think, between the years, it was affecting my golf game.”

I was a little worried when you used a headwind's reference, considering our nautical misapps. Yes, I, what do you want me to say, I mean, you know what, well, I was about to get ahead ourselves. At least it didn't require a trip to medical, sea medical professionals.

It required, you know, neosporin, which is kind of hard to acquire in Europe, and what they gave me, didn't quite look like the same product, but, and bandids. So I'm just going to say this. I believe that we're going to see each other during the preseason, and there is a nautical excursion that I'm going to try to talk you guys into.

Oh, really? Yes. We're going to discuss further later. All right. I'm going to stay tuned for that.

All right. Thank you to Mark and Miles and Jackson for putting it together. Thank you for listening and watching. Who's collective? We'll talk to you later this week.

Adios, amigos.