Alanis Morissette: Anger, Attachment, & Postpartum

What is up, Daddy Gang?

“It is your founding father, Alex Cooper.”

We call her, Daddy. [MUSIC PLAYING] Alana's more set. Welcome to Caller Daddy. Thank you for having me.

You are such an icon. Let me just gather myself. Let me just hold on. I need to take a deep breath. So do I.

All of my friends were like, no pressure. And I'm like, OK, well, now you're making me feel pressure. One of my friends specifically is the biggest fan. And she's like, I'll just come do the interview for you. And I was like, you need one of their questions.

No, but literally, she was like blowing me up. Shout out, Meg, if you're watching this, I love you. I hope I do you justice. OK, I need to give you your proper intro at 21 years old.

You shattered records, selling 33 million copies of your album,

Jagged Little Pill, winning five Grammys, including Best Album. And since then, you really have continued to release music

“that I think gives people the permission to feel angry”

and messy and complicated. And I just love every single thing that you stand for. So thank you so much for giving me your time. It is such an honor. I got you.

Thanks for saying that and mirroring me. So generously. Of course. Of course. OK, your song, ironic, will

forever be one of my favorite songs to scream in the car with my girlfriends, as I'm sure it is millions of other people watching. But what does it mean to you that new generations continue to discover your music and to fall in love with you

and what you stand for?

First, when the record came out in 1995,

it was a wild experience. And I saw quickly that people were using this music in a way that felt inspiring for me to stay in the public eye as an introvert. I had ambiguity about all of it. And I saw that it was supporting people

and uplifting people, a reminding people of who they were or giving them permission to feel anything. And I thought, this is a good reason to stay here and keep going. For me, it was glimpsing inside way too much information. I can spend a few minutes writing a song

and then get back out. So I'm much better now at 52 it going in pretty consistently. But songwriting was terrifying in that way because it would come through. And then-- and then it's out for the entire world.

Yeah, and then it's designed anymore. Then it's yours. Then I have nothing to do with it almost. You also just performed that song on stage with Olivia Rodrigo.

Yes. I know mentoring young artists is something that you're so passionate about. How did you first meet? I don't even remember.

I think we met at the Rolling Stone cover shoot together. I just, you know, there's nothing better than supporting young people in being who they are and not having to figure it out in the '80s.

“And especially, I think as women in this industry,”

you have so much that you have learned and continued to learn. So I think that like any time we can pass that down to future generations, it's such a blessing of like, oh, my God. Because I'm sure you like, oh, I wish I knew this. Here you go.

Yeah, or I wish I had someone. Yeah, I definitely had the will you be my mommy for a long time in the mid 90s, like will there be some mentor, some group of women who kind of rush in and scoop me up in the answer was a hard no.

But now it's a hard yes. And I think consciousness has changed to the point where that which was really confusing or overwhelming or weird or wo wo, which that word has gone now. I just think now people are understanding

what some of us were talking about the whole time. And it feels strange. I didn't expect it. Let's talk about the 90s. What do you miss most about that decade?

- I miss sitting around doing nothing. (laughs) I feel like you were doing a lot. Yes, but also as an artist and as someone who expresses oneself as a career, it's a lot of it.

A lot of the writing is just sitting and letting the mind wander or listening or you can call the channeling.

We call it whatever the frick, but it's basically

listening, heating and answering the call. The 90s also I feel like everyone talks about fashion. And the trends keep coming back. What is something that is in your closet that is from the 90s that you still put on today

or you still look at. And you're like, I still stand by that fashion decision. - I have some Lavae boots and I have some Dress really early work. I keep a lot of it.

In archive. But the one thing I noticed about the 90s and it kind of reinvigorating now is that back in the 90s, we weren't cute and we're in cute ill fitting clothes to be cute.

It just didn't fit. So also if you're gonna chase the 90s

you gotta twist your eyebrows to tiny.

If you mean it, if you don't mean it, where you really gotta lean in. - If you're gonna commit to it or it's not, you're not even gonna get close to it. - Yeah.

- We cannot talk about fashion also without talking about sex in the city. You guessed art on sex in the city and you kissed the Carrie Bradshaw. - Yes.

- Were you a fan of the show before you went on? - Yes. And I reached out to them and I said, might it be a nice time for Carrie to experience a lesbian moment?

(laughs) And they said, well, yes, we were thinking the same thing. - Wait, you came up with the idea?

“- Well, I think we literally had the same idea”

at the same time. - That happens. - That is, that makes it even better. - Yeah, I was a win-win. - Wow.

- And I also feel like at the time, it wasn't very common to see a bisexual character written into television. - Yeah. - And so what did it mean to you to be a part

of a moment like that? - It's amazing. - Yeah, anything that opens up and pulls us out of the locked binary is a loving act, I think.

- Do you think you knew though at the time, like how groundbreaking it would be when people saw that on TV? - Was it groundbreaking? (laughs)

- I know, I know. - Okay. You're like, I just went about my day Alex. (laughs) I just, I do, I caught another two stale.

(laughs) - I just dropped Mike's and keep walking. - No, you do. - Yeah. - I'm just joking.

- You do. - Sometimes. - I feel like when people talk about you,

we're always talking about how you've broken barriers.

And I think a great example of that is you created your own record label at 13 years old. Now, Alannas, I feel like I'm gonna speak for myself and also the collective when I say,

I was not doing anything like that at 13 years old. - Have a rest. - No, no, no, no, no. - So I need to understand like, how did that even come to be at that young of an age?

- Yeah, I started writing songs at nine and I sent it to a friend of the family who's since passed away. And he heard it and created track for it. So when I went to visit him,

he had a track fully prepared. And I said, "Who's gonna sing this? "My brothers have informed me repeatedly "that I can't sing." And he was like, "Well, they're lying."

- Leave it to your brother.

“I'll say it was humble, you must just take you out.”

So I sang it and then that was that. And then we went to chop a record deal and back in those days, they weren't signing the little children. Now they just go right up the vagina

into the uterus and get the signature and come back out and wait, I guess. Is your child sign to a deal yet? - Oh yeah, for sure, for sure we have an agency set up. Can you make it just a lot?

- So that was not happening then. And so I basically started a record company with my friend Lindsay and we put it out on the record company at I was 11. - That takes a certain level of confidence.

Like were you always a young confident child?

I think by parent, there's so many stages of development, attachment, exploration, identity, competence. My parents knocked the confidence one out of the park. - Definitely saying you can do anything you want. - Oh that's such a good thing.

- It's a big one. - I mean that change, that can change your life. Obviously, 'cause I think a lot of times people have to struggle with that their entire life and find a way to find confidence

because their home was the place they did not feel most confident. So to have that within your parents, were they at all nervous about you though getting into this industry?

Apparently not.

“- And did they have any background in it themselves?”

- No. - So they had no concept of the industry. - And they just were like, go for it, Lannus. - You're gonna crush. - It's really that simple, actually.

- Did they have any idea for you prior? It's that of what they hoped to you would become? - No, I mean my dad was a grammar guy, my mom, my parents are, they have that go-getter thing. It's in the DNA of the mayor of their bone.

- When you talk about your experience in the music industry, you've said, you were putting a lot of male-dominated spaces at a very young age. What's it that even look like for you back in the day

when it first started? - Just a room full of 12 men and suits. And I just remember being really overwhelmed, like I didn't even know what the word publishing meant. I didn't know what these contracts were

that were being put in front of me at 14, I didn't know. So I would run upstairs to my room and cry. I remember I burned my journal in the fireplace. Just think it's just the end of a normal life for me. And then I signed the contracts and that was it.

And I still didn't really know. - rewind for two seconds. Why were you burning your journal in the fireplace because I talked about all these people I had crushes on and I just didn't want anyone to find that out.

- Meanwhile, it's like full golden there, platinum. - You're going, platinum baby.

- No, literally, you shouldn't have learned it.

“- So I actually have legit diary burning regret.”

It's a thing. - And so you just, why? 'Cause you were just like, "I don't want to lean into these emotions in these feelings." - Oh, no, no, no.

I wanna lean into the feelings. I just don't want anyone to know anything. I just got really hidey. - I'm an introvert. So this whole life that was sort of presented as an option.

I just thought, "Wow, how am I gonna do this? I'm a poodle inside of Black Stallion." It's like the Black Stallion's lovely and awesome, but the poodle, the nervous system, you know? So, but also what's so crazy is to even hear you say that.

And I'm sitting here and I'm like, you are the breakup anthems that you've written, the push-and-pull dynamics between the person that you're in love with or that you hate or you vote. - Oh, yeah, it's usually vote.

You're like, to hear the way that you have been able to pen to paper and then release that into the world. And to hear you be like, "Oh, I wanted no one at first to hear." I knew this, how did you get through that? - I'm fine with everyone hearing everything.

I didn't want anyone to know because there's layers of vulnerability. And I do receive a lot of comments around how is it possible to read that publicly vulnerable and in power, and I'm like, "First of all, thank you."

But you can do both. You can be empowered and vulnerable. I can be comfortable sharing that I feel anger and shame and guilt and fear and joy. But I might not want you to know the seven people

I'm obsessing over right now. - Maybe not. - But also did you ever change like light little details 'cause you're like, "I refuse to let him know this one's about him."

Oh yeah, I never tell anybody anything ever.

But do you think you're some of your ex's knew it was them?

“- Well, here's the thing, if you're calling me up,”

which some of them did. And saying, "Is that song about me?" We're done. - Really? - Okay.

- You're like, "Well, does the shoe fit?" - You tell me? - You tell me. - Is this resonate? - Right.

- If it does to the point where you're calling me, aren't we done? - We're done. - We're done. - This wasn't written for some overt revenge.

I love revenge fantasy. - Oh. - Just keep it a fantasy. - Right about it. Sing about it.

- That's the best way.

- But real revenge is, no, nobody wins.

- Yeah, but real revenge does end up happening when your name is like, and then you put it out. And then it's like, "Uh, everyone is gonna listen to this." That's a pretty good form of revenge. - Okay, okay.

(laughing) - Okay, you're like, "Yeah, whatever you say." - No, that's totally true.

“You, I think it's important also to emphasize,”

you reference all these men in these suits and you being like, "I didn't know what getting published, men." Like, I just was a talented young woman who had a very, very specific skill, obviously. And everyone saw that you had that skill.

And so everyone's going to be interested in monetizing that. But back then, I don't think we really had the language or the understanding to even call certain things for what it was.

That's a double standard, or this is gaslighting. - There's that, yeah, all these beautiful newer ones. - Right, that's emotional abuse. That's the patriarchy. That's miserable.

- That's not true. (laughing) A lot of that. - No language to explain a lot of times how specifically I think women were feeling.

In what ways did you feel yourself up against that push and pull of like, "I feel like something's off here, but I don't know how with what this is?" Well, there was a lot of extraction and exploitation. So already there's a dehumanization.

The fame one is a whole other concept, a conversation, but in those rooms with the soup peeps, there was no attunement or empathy. A lot of personality disorders, a lot of misogyny, a lot of just hate of the feminine.

Not just women, it's like we hate women, yes. But we also hate the feminine. We hate vulnerability, but we want it. We want tenderness, but we can't say we want it. There's just so many indoctrination,

conversation of how we're supposed to live, what we're supposed to want, how we're supposed to present. Meanwhile, we're all animals, we're all humans with a little Neo Frontal doing our best. And as it is so weird when you say that too,

it's like the men who hate that so much, but a lot of these men are recognizing that this is what will sell. So they're not afraid for you to put it in the song and to have it release.

Oh, they love it. They love it so much, but behind closed doors, they're still hate. They still hate. Well, it's also people who were very generous by saying,

oh, you've changed the game. There was a point in time where it was, if we called a radio station to see if they would play one of my songs, they would say, we can't play it, we're playing Shenev.

Or we can't play it at this radio station,

One woman.

“So that all changed, and it was a beautiful,”

I just felt like I volunteered to ride the huge wave.

I put my hand up before the question was even asked somehow. And the wave was happening without me. And I just happened to be on it. And I said, yeah, put me at the front. I'll get my head jumped off.

Do you think, though, Elana said that comes from just something within you that you were born with, or something that you actually were taught? - Rage. - Yeah, best activism is rage-fueled. (laughing)

- Anger is such a powerful emotion, which I think we all should lean into, which I want to talk to you about, because, oh, we're gonna get there. - Oh, I got it.

- But it's like, to recognize where it's coming from to have some control over it for yourself and understanding. - Let's contain it. - So that's like, you know, be reading a room, being discerning.

- Yeah. - Is this appropriate here? - And getting older, it's like, oh, rage just transmutes into this.

I mean, it's always beautiful.

I think anger's beautiful. I think rage is trauma. If we're raging, we're traumatized.

“If you're a woman in the world of patriarchy,”

how are you not enraged, if you're really looking at it every day? - Every day? - Every day? - So that's not going, getting a rage right now. - I want to, but I want something, not at you.

- Not at you, not at you, not at you. - Together, together, that little literally, you have said that men often refer to you as mature for your age. And you thought it was to justify it

in their own bodies, like they needed it to be true. Can we talk about how men do this and why they do this in your opinion? - From what you've experienced. - Why, why they tell a young person

that they're poised and wise beyond their years to justify their sexual predatory actions? - And it's so transparent. And yet, when it happens to a young woman when you have freeze response,

we fight flight freeze collapse or appease or befriended. All five of them are great, but freeze is just kind of the normal one. On an animal level, you're being predator. And you can't do anything about it.

- And at a young age, we don't have the wherewithal 'cause we haven't had the life experience as a young girl to even understand. So you naturally take that as a compliment.

You're like, amazing. So I can hang in the room with the suits, but it's also one other, but it's a reductive. - Of course.

- Of course, if you don't know that though in the moment fully. - Oh, and you're young, and especially if what's been ascribed to you as you're only, as you're one gift, as Joe and little women would say,

is your sexuality and your come-hitherness. So as a, at what age at this point, young people through puberty, they reach a certain age, and then all of a sudden,

there's a different kind of gaze, it's terrifying. It is terrifying, and at some point, you also wish that there were adults in those rooms. Yeah, who would recognize the obvious power and balance and help the young woman understand

that that is not a compliment, and they're going to do everything to protect them from that person who is clearly a predator, and yet we continue to be let down. - Well, yeah, we're not, we're in the dome of patriarchy.

Nothing's gonna be fixed in there. We're just gonna run in circles. So I'm over here, so instead of spending in a northern amounts of time talking about how the patriarchy is just not helping anybody,

just come over here and talk from here. - And talking also is such a weapon, because it is a threat to them and the more we keep talking about it and exposing it, then their rage comes out.

“- And I'm like, oh, I'm sorry, am I making you uncomfortable?”

Like you've made us uncomfortable. - 10,000 years, I also read your former business manager as if it couldn't get worse, stole millions of dollars from you.

How did you first even realize this was happening?

- Something felt weird, a woman's intuition. - Uh-huh. - Okay, and what did you do when you had that gut feeling? - I just kept going into the new business manager's office over and over and saying, I need more information

'cause something's up and I don't know what. And I kept coming into the point where God bless, they said, why are you here in this boardroom? And I said, I still don't have the answer yet. And so my husband was sitting next to me

and he was going through papers and he noticed some inconsistencies. Anyway, what's up with this? And then we called everyone into the room, they looked at it and they said, we'll get back to you.

And then it first, it was like, do you spend cash over there? - Yeah. - On velvety. That is, that's a unique one. - It is and it's also, it's at face value, yes,

it's like the money, but it's like the entitlement

- What was beautiful about it was that I just stayed

“the course, one foot in front of the other,”

just keep showing up. And then when I spoke at the trial or the sentancy hearing, the judge was a woman and she was like, I just looked right out her, it was really actually quite corrective for me.

- Yeah, but also money, right? - Of course, by us against wealth, by us against women, by us against women knowing. - Oh, even it's like you having all the right to be asking those questions and the amount of times

that you needed to ask for more times. - And you still don't get an answer. - And it's your money. - And somehow, and it's like, you know, if a man walked in there and said show me my foot,

it'd be like, and they'd show it to him. But it's like, in the betrayal and the mistrust that comes from that, and you all wonder why we're angry. - Yes. - And that's just the iceberg tip.

- Oh, this. - Oh, sweetie. - It's fascinating. - Hold you. - Hold you in your baby.

- Okay, let's start, I wanted to, I wanted to get into this topic because you ought to know

was intentionally the lead single on your breakthrough album

because you said you wanted to open with anger. To people who don't understand what we're even talking about, can you explain your thought process around that decision for that single? - Well, the thing about patriarchy is,

there's a reduction in posed on women. So for me, I knew that being a complex human being with 75 multidimensional layers might be a little much for some, I was dumped many times for my multidimensionality.

So the messaging basically was just reduce yourself and everything's gonna be okay and try to be quite if you can. So a hand on my pocket was an option and ironic was an option as for single.

“And I remember thinking, no, we just have to just”

put you out and know out, and then we talk. 'Cause I had too much rajas, I had too much energy

to not have that be first.

And then that I could speak to effortlessly. How did your team feel about that? - Okay. - Oh, it's not, you're like, well, I team of suits. - No, yeah, they were, they were into it.

I mean, they definitely, when they first got the record, they said this is a little caustic, this little intense for us. And I said, well, if you wanna dance steely record, want it, you sign a dance steely and they were like, it's steely, Dan, you're like, oh, I'm like, right.

I'm 19, I'm caustic, right? - Well, and it's also like, you coming out and having this single that is you know, leading with this anger and this rage, which is so enticing for so many women, obviously,

'cause so many women didn't feel like they could have that. But also there are songs that obviously have joy. It's this dichotomy of a woman that gets everyone in a frenzy of, oh my God, how can she be both? - Right.

“- And I think it's very unsettling for a lot of people.”

You leaning into the anger at first. Did you feel like there was any initial conversation or backlash around that? - There was terror in resistance, but that's just normal. - I hate what? - No, that's Tuesday.

- I just can't get over though, how? And maybe it's also because I'm meeting you where you're at right now, but I have a feeling if I met you even back then, it feels like it was similar. Like, there was no apprehension from you or nerves

around like, oh God, are people gonna curse? If I meet like, are people gonna think I'm crazy? 'Cause that is what happens with a lot of women if we come out as angry, they're like, oh, she's insane. - Yeah, the seaward, of course.

- Ah, yeah, but, you know, at that point, project on to me all you want, project that I'm the anti-correct project that I'm terrified or like too confident. Basically too much, right?

My whole life, I've just heard that I'm too much. And at this point, I'm at menopause time. I'm just like too much. You mean exactly who I am? - Yeah, do you think that when you were in your teens

and 20s, did you ever have a moment where you were by yourself in your room being like, this is a lot to bear the burden of? Every time I put a record out without fail, I wake up at four in the morning,

the morning of release and have a full panic attack.

I mean, I've always nervous.

People are like, how do you deal with your nerves? I'm like, I don't know. - No, I get that, it's almost like, yes and. Yeah, I'm nervous, but I'm also here. And I have the decision to either put this thing out

and go with my gut. And yeah, I can be nervous as hell and want to vomit and hopefully no one sees. Or I could just write whatever one sees,

Or you can freeze and you cannot do anything with it

and then you're just left wondering what it. - Well, then you're in your 50s going, I want to make up for some last time and which is also, do it when you can do it. - I can, one question I do have to ask about that time

also aside from the anger is, I feel like some of the lyrics which I love were a little sexually ahead of their time, maybe? - Yes.

“- Quote, and are you thinking of me when you fuck her?”

- It's a great question. I mean, it's a legit curiosity. - It is. - Do you remember if there was any backlash or around that,

empirically, I believe there was, and I talk about it in the butterfly with a machete show, there was a moment while writing you, I don't know, where I thought,

oh, I'll just write it, don't edit, don't censor as always.

And then later if I have to take a swear word out, I'll take it out. And I remember having said that to Glenn Ballard and he turned to me and he said, "Why?" And I said, "Well, I don't want this to turn into the lead

character of the song," you know? He said, "But if you felt that way, yes?" And I said, "Yes." And he goes, "So there it is." And God bless him for that level of support.

- Did you ever feel like you were punished for refusing to be more palatable? Yes.

“- I think a lot of people who were reaching out to me”

were trying to figure out what I was doing and I couldn't even explain it to them. Like a lot of people in the industry and then a lot of people who wanted to date me, I was very reticent because why?

Like with fame, I love this part, by the way. So I'm sitting across from you telling you how much they admire you, how much you've been a catalyst in their life, how much you validated, emphasized, uplifted, all of those things.

Amazing, right? The greatest and you're not seen. 'Cause it's not about you. So I've been looking, I've really been deconstructing this whole idea of fame because fame used to be

a means to an end, Joni Mitchell or commentary on the Vietnam War. Like it was a means to an end. Now fame is the end. Now fame is some panacea, apparently, you know?

But a lot of people are just like, I want fame for in and of itself and as some of us know who've had the privilege and horror of being inside it, it's a very complicated social construct. And for me, I thought, oh, there could be some attachment

correction here, I contact, you know? And the opposite is true, fame amplifies any pain and amplifies any trauma, amplifies everything. And now you're in the public eye. And now people can't necessarily even see you

as the human being because you're filling the blank for them. Yeah, that makes me think about that year you were on the cover of Rolling Stone. And the headline was Angry White Female.

“Do you remember your reaction when you saw the magazine?”

It was like female. (both laughing) Interesting, presumption. No, I, again, same state of being as the pick you out

and I was the first single.

Great, whatever you need to call me. I know you have to call me one thing because you can't possibly hold space for the multitudinousness that is all humans. So yeah, you want to pick one, angers, great, go.

I don't care. It's who it didn't get under your skin at all. I loved it. Because I got to talk about feelings and anger. What's the best?

Right, and do you think there's someone more also at that point that was like, and if they're talking, who gives a shit? I wasn't that advanced. Okay. (both laughing)

I also operate from an insight out approach. And some of that has maybe a little blind to the receptivity or lack of receptivity. But I hear about it later. How do you think for any woman listening

because sometimes it is really difficult when labels are placed on you? Like we said, the sea word and you're crazy. You're this and you're that and you're angry. How do you think throughout your career

you've personally learned to strip those labels of their power and if anything just make them positive for you or use them to your advantage? Well, the ones that hurt, I just do interwork with those. So if someone says, I don't even know at this point,

I've used a lot of the words in the press over the years 'cause there was a lot of hate. There were websites constructed to figure out how to murder me most elegantly. And so, I love how you just dropped these things casually.

And you were about to go right past that, like, you're like, "Mit, what? What? Well, there was a lot of hate." And it was very, very out there.

And a lot of people, a lot of artists who my respected and live for were disparagingly speaking about me later, Shenaid Apologize, which was really classy.

There were no girl squad's.

But how did you find support during that time? Like, were you close with your family? Therapy. Back then? Oh my God, I have a whole team.

I love Ricky too. And a lot of parts work. So if I read something in the press that triggered me and I felt terrible, obviously that part means a little dialogue here.

Because, and so it became shadow work 101 for me. Can you give an example of something back then? I know it probably doesn't now, but anything--

“I think Courtney Love was calling me fake, which is so funny.”

And she also apologized later and said very kind of things. But so fake would be one. And as an example, I would take fake and go, kind of person is fake. Someone who's maybe lying, lying to themselves.

Do I lie to myself? Yeah, lie to myself. Let's talk to the part that lies to myself. OK, what do you need? What wisdom do you have?

What action can I take on your behalf? And every little part in here that is trying-- that may be acting out or behaving in a terrible horrifying way, like maybe you want to take me out. They're all trying to protect.

They're all trying to help. So a lot of the things when you would get criticism, it would hurt-- which I think makes-- Oh, a lot of things. Of course, yeah.

And the ones that hurt the most were ones where you really needed to do some look at them. And fake, and that's how you know. Because if someone says, oh, Lannas, you're really-- if someone says something that's not a trigger for me,

it's water off a duck's bag, if you go. So for me, if something's not water off a duck's bag, let's look at it. There's also this thing where it's so fun to be able to look back and have perspective and everyone's like, oh, my gosh,

she was such a trailblazer at the time. And you did all these things. But then a lot of the times when you have those conversations with those type of people, if you actually were in it in their day-to-day and living it during the time,

it was hell for them. They were getting scrutinized and hatred. There's websites telling, figuring out how they can murder you and we miss all of that. But a lot of times, to actually make certain change,

“you have to go against the grain, which you were doing.”

But then we're still doing that. We are. But also to hear that a lot of the people around you in the industry were not receptive towards you. - Oh, yeah, they were upset.

I was, you know, it's like people being a jealous of Taylor Swift. - Yeah. - It's just, and I think the implication there for me was that the pre-supposition on the planet

was that there's one throne. Only Alex can sit in the throne, everybody. Everyone else, you fail, you lose, you're ugly by. What? That's patriarchy.

That scarcity mindset. - And isn't that so crazy? It's like, then they want to put a stake through you because you're sitting at the top. It's also like, if not you, then there's going to be someone else

and then are we going to take them down too? We see the sites or repeat, yes. And it just remains. - And that repeats. - All of all is, right?

- Of course, of course. - And for me also, I've noticed,

“because I've been in the public Geist since I was 14.”

It goes like this. You loved you, I hated you, I loved you, I hated it. And Taylor talks about that a lot.

- You can never be loved forever.

- I mean, you can, but that's in the underneath underneath. - True, and if you're going to be loved forever, you probably have come, you have a version of lost yourself because to be loved constantly means that you're appeasing everyone else and then you're never actually

being like, is it even possible? There's no such thing. - No, you're going to piss people off because you appease. (upbeat music) - Let's talk about dating.

- Let's talk about dating, my favorite topic. - Amazing. I know you referenced, you were sitting across from sometimes someone on a date, you referenced it a little bit earlier.

And they're saying all these amazing things, but you're like, oh, you don't even see me. - Oh yeah. - Jagged Little Pill comes out, 21, your life changes forever. How did you even connect with men in a way,

or women in a way that you felt seen because of this fame and all these issues? - I didn't. How did that impact your songwriting? - The loneliness persisted.

(laughing) The object cellular loneliness. But I mean, that's what it is. And so for me also, my survival strategy also, and I've worked so hard on this,

has also included other orientation, right? Raised in narcissism, my existence meant beholding other, being supply for narcissism. I don't even exist, there's not even a person here. So yeah, I do, I have a big self

when people meet me, maybe, but over the years, there was no felt sense of self because my whole orientation was focused on other. And so over the years, doing all kinds of different

trauma therapy models, and finally getting to a point

where I'm in this body, and then I'm actually here,

This invisibility wound, and in the preacher,

I could hear a woman knock and feel some fucking someone's of invisibility. They cannot, okay, rewind. Raised in narcissism, explain. So what happens with a young creature

at the attachment stage when you're looking, this is when we get the identity stage, your parents mirror you, you go, Alex, you're so smart, you're so funny, you're just mirroring the person. The child goes, oh, I exist, I'm here.

When that doesn't happen, it's this floaty felt sense of experience. And then my survival strategy was to take care of other people. So I'm floating, no felt embodied. Taking care of other.

And then the only touch was through acting so it's actually, because everything was mixed together.

“The only way a woman could be acknowledged”

when she's little, like you said earlier, is, oh, sexual energy, I'm gonna erotically go for you or predatory or take you or whatever, right? So the woman goes, the young woman goes, oh, this is my power. Oh, I noticed that when I'm come hither or come hither,

I get seen, I get looked at, I get touched, I get, oh, but it's so sad, because it's this one tiny little route. And a human being, your sexuality is beautiful, it's huge, and it is one piece of you. No, it's so true, and also I was recently,

like I recently did this series on attachment styles, which I want to get into with you,

'cause that's what you're basically talking about.

And I think you describing your childhood, it is such a hard thread for all of us as human beings, when you don't have that nurture, looking at you, whoever is your, you know, person that's taking care of you, giving you a secure attachment, giving you validation,

“but also proper validation, it's mirroring.”

Consistency, right? The fact that you're saying, you know, from a young age as a young girl, then you're like, okay, maybe sexually, this is something that, because you're looking for any way to have anything that's going to be you, yeah, that's it.

And that is so harmful to ourselves because then you're yourself, no self, and you're so young, with actually not, to be in charge of your own developmental, growing's up on your own is very, really, and I'm not even just thinking about,

I mean, I'm just thinking about the idea of it. So attachment, which you just brought up, and then exploration, and it's cumulative, so ideally we're securely attached, and then we explore, you know,

keep looking back at the caregiver. And then we go into identity, the mirroring, so what I see, I'm putting it into words, I see you. You are spider-man, right? And then the last one, or the fourth is competence,

and it keeps going, but it keeps going, but when you, 'cause I do think it's really relatable for a lot of women watching, like, do you have anything you now in having gone through

“so much therapy and having such a secure, strong sense of self?”

Is there anything you wish you could tell that younger girl who understandably was seeking love? And sexuality brought out what felt like temporary love, but then it also, the crash is even bigger. Do you have any advice for women listening

who maybe are still in that cycle? So one interesting inquiry for me was pulling them, teasing them apart, and seeing that, am I, do I need's attachment love right now, or is my eroticism wanting to be expressed, or both?

But just getting clear on that, when you look back, maybe in your early 20s, let's say, raised narcissism, trying to figure out your sense of self, did you see any patterns with partners that you were really attracted to,

and how did you break out of those patterns? - I was attracted to narcissism, shocker. And as an empath, we tend to be a magnet for narcissism. It's not uncommon. And there's a beautiful book called "Keeping the Love You Find"

by "Harble Hendrix."

It just basically lays out where you're gonna feel

high chemistry, based on your unconscious, unfinished business, and that the degree of commitment and intimacy or tends for the degree of healing available. And yeah, I mean, it's a beautiful book in terms of understanding what seems so mysterious,

it's this unconscious drive to become whole and to reinvigorate our aliveness. We all wanna feel alive. - It's so relatable and it's so complicated

- I know. - And I know you have talked about how you dealt with codependency and love addiction. What emotional told though, does that eventually take on you a complete self annihilation and obliteration

and years of coming back into who you barely were before you began?

“- I think that's what's so fascinating is like,”

how a meshed you can get in relationships and how I also think it's so hard to see when you're in it. - You can't. - You can't see it at all, it just hurts. - And it hurts and you feel like,

but maybe if I try harder, well, that's the appeasement, right? - The appeasement is if I see them a little better if I hold them or if I empathize more, if I leave more space, but the no-self is the theme

and the survival strategy of other focus, there is no-self. - Do you have a moment you remember? 'Cause it's so hard, it's like we can look back and be like, oh, that was that, but is there ever a moment you remember being like,

I have to leave, is there anything that ever happened that you were like, this specifically made me walk out the door? - I had a few, there's a sauna road called that particular time

and basically I just keep getting into that appeasement part

to just try to figure out how to make something untenable, terrible.

“And it isn't, and it won't be, and it's painful.”

And so how do you construct a self from nothing? And guess what, the hack of all time and you said it at the beginning of our conversation, gathering, gather, period, because if we get together and we're talking

and we're processing, it moves worlds. - And a lot of times when you're in those situations, you are so isolated, but if you do open yourself up to a friend or a family member or something slowly, you're like, oh, maybe I'm not crazy.

- Maybe there are billions of other people asking this very question, hot at the same time. - You and your husband, so like, married when you were 35, what about that relationship, felt different to you?

- I had had the pattern was done,

and I just basically went against type.

Which is sometimes really scary. - It's all scary, right? Everything is scary about dating. - It's terrible. - 'Cause you're, I don't recommend,

'cause you're also so aware when you're going against your type and you're like, be open-minded, be open-minded, and stay here, right? Everything in your body is like, go back, go back, go back

and you're like, if we go back one more time, I'm gonna lose it, so now, we have to say the court here.

“I mean, how many times do you repeat the same pattern?”

And by the way, my answer is 100, like, more than 100, yeah. - Yeah, seven. - Okay, so you just went against, oh, I had to. - Because I also was ready for a family, and so I was loyalty and constancy.

There were some qualities where I went, family now. (laughing) - Right, I was like, these are the best, this is it.

And I always wanted to be a mom.

I always wanted to have kids, so it was a bit of a no-brainer for me. - You have three children. And a conversation that I've been having a lot on my show, recently has been kind of just surrounding motherhood

and postpartum depression is something that is such a, unfortunately tricky topic to talk about because there's so much judgment from other people. And you have been such an incredible voice when talking about your experience

and being so open about it, which I have so much respect for. And you even described it as being covered in tar and underwater. Can you just talk more about your feelings

and what you were going through back at that time in your life? I had, I call it postpartum activity, 'cause it's not just depression. And I mean, depression on its own.

And if you've had a history depression, and then from my experience, each postpartum depression gets increasingly harder. Just wanted to meet my kids though, so badly, so I kept going.

But basically, I became another person and all the hormones are all over the place. And so there's some version of menopausal flux combined with depression, invasive thoughts that are so harrowing, terrible.

Seaceless. Vasive thoughts, anxiety, depression, rage off the charts. I felt completely out of control. And yet, I was touring and leading and being a boss and being someone

taking care of money and finance is an everything. And that part is the part where when I'm quiet and alone,

When you first started to experience symptoms,

how did you even make sense of them? I didn't. And I reached out to so many therapists and all do respect.

“One well-meaning therapist said, sweetheart,”

when it gets really bad, just put your hands over your eyes. Like this. And I was like, you're like, you know, I'm not a therapist, but I have a feeling.

I have it on TV, and I know a little bit more than that. You're like, I've got a feeling that's not the-- - I don't set up things for what's true. - Anyway, I can't be the answer. - It isn't.

- Oh my God. - And I spoke with a lot of really, really smart, supportive postpartum support peeps. And it was still really, really, really, really, really hard.

- I wrote down, after your first baby,

you kind of talked about how you waited to get help because your instinct was to white knuckle your way through it. - Welcome to Generation X. - Yes. Yes.

What did you come to learn about that mindset? - The steel. I mean, that's what we, Gen X does it. But also women do it. This invisible low thing, and then now,

it's not gonna be invisible anymore. We're making it visible.

“I'm gonna tell you the 37 things that we do an hour.”

And what we're thinking about when it looks like we're sitting there waiting for you to speak to us, what we're actually thinking about, what we're actually processing. But let's name it.

Even us calling it invisible load keeps it invisible. Not invisible. The load, we talk about it at the deal. Just like, this is the load. And I used to do these horrifying things with whiteboards

where I would be like, I'm gonna write down everything I'm doing. Why don't you do the same? They're like, oh God. He's like, oh, let's not do it.

You know what, I'm gonna go make you dinner. He's like, oh, I am gonna go do the dishes and put dinner and do the laundry party. I'm gonna clean the mess. (laughing)

You're like an ugly whiteboard out of your. I have two whiteboards with my god. So you mentioned that each postpartum depression or postpartum activity, it got increasingly worth. Increasingly worth each pregnancy for you.

How did you manage knowing it was coming on,

maybe the second and third time

and how did that look different

“the way that you handled it then first, maybe the first time?”

Each time I thought, well, not this time. (laughing) 'Cause I just had to think that. Well, first time I waited a year and two months, second time I waited eight months

and third time I think I waited three days, I was just like, oh, no, I'm not doing this again. And I did it again. And then we toured during COVID. I was just like, wow.

Oh, a lanus, you toured postpartum depression, third one. During COVID, you're like, this'll solve it. You know what, this is gonna make everything, all I remember is Shirley Manson before every show every night should say,

we're gonna go on. And I said, Shirley, tonight, we go on. This is all I know. (laughing) Oh, it was one of those.

And were you able to just push through in those moments, but then would it all come crashing down the minute you would get off stage? Back at the hotel, yeah. But I still showed up.

Like I was, I dipped into psychosis. It was a wild ride. And then I'd have people in the business going what's going on with her. And now she's extra crazy.

I'm just like, all right, thanks for that beautiful chest not weird again. I've heard a lot of moms who also have experienced postpartum depression talk about the guilt in the shame of like, I'm supposed to be feeling the blame.

Right, but I'm supposed to be the best, most beautiful time in my life. And I'm supposed to be happy and the happiest. Did you experience that? No, but I've been playing with depression my whole life.

And joy is very, very cool. It's activism for me now. Joy, pleasure, connection, human context. Having dealt with depression your whole life. How did you,

were there, was there anything that you did similar to cope and to handle the postpartum element of it, or were they just very different experiences? The depression piece inside PPD. Unfortunately, unfortunately, I was familiar with it.

It was all the other stuff. It was the invasive thoughts and the terror. Just all I could picture was death and terrible things. And yeah, I mean, I feel so happy that I'm back, by the way.

And the bummer for me, inside PPD, was that I was losing people's trust in my sanity.

When I have spent my whole life

“attempting to establish to people I love”

that I'm safe and that I'm predictable. And that all of a sudden I wasn't. That was a loss 'cause people looked at me differently. They looked at me like I maybe couldn't be trusted

or was gonna fly off the hand. And that's not my thing. But also, it's ahead from what I've understood 'cause I haven't experienced it. But like, there's also the element of,

you're so afraid to say these things out loud or terrible. Because you're like, oh, you're gonna think I'm insane. But in a sense from what I understand, it's like, we need to say these things out loud. Yes.

But then it's being met with such judgment. So then you just go back into a corner and we haven't figured out the Saul that all for women. Well, yeah, they're ring. I mean, the Saul for women is us going back to how we used to live,

which is honoring the female endocrine system as a spiritual freaking practice.

“And that when a woman is with freaking child,”

that she is surrounded by 30 women and they're giving you broth and they're cleaning your home and they're holding your baby and they're holding you. And so of course the women are gonna suffer. Yes.

The freaking life givers are gonna suffer. Everyone's okay with this. It is so crazy too when everyone will treat a pregnant woman with such grace and love.

And her second trimester, only.

It's true, true, true, first trimester. Yeah, like shut up, you're bugging me. Yeah, you're annoying. Yeah, second trimester. Oh, you have a child.

And that's what's so sad, right? The minute the mother gives birth, it's like we come, she gets invisible again. She's invisible and it's all, the baby and it's like, wait, this woman just went through

the most transformative in moments traumatic experience that a physiologically a human being could ever go through and neurologically and we're just like, get up, the baby's crying.

“And why are you, why are you lost your 42 pounds yet?”

Yeah, what's going on there? Why don't you get back to your aesthetic pleasing for me? You look like you're going through it. You better get it together. Wow, do you have a trainer?

Anybody to help you with this? (laughing) I did, but how am I supposed to, oh, you're leaving me alone with that, perfect. Perfect.

So community is community. Get community all around. And childhood. And cast roles. And lots of cast roles, the cast roles.

You, which I think is so admirable, you did choose to speak about postpartum, depression, publicly while you were still going through it. Yeah. Why was it important for you to not wait until you were

on the other side of it and just say what was going on? This just was what was happening. So, and it was happening again for the third time. And I had heard at this point because I'd been so spoken about it, people were, my phone was blowing up.

And some of it would say, oh my gosh, my daughter-in-law, she just pulled the car over and is running down the street. What do I do? And I'm like, why is she driving? Why is she even out of the house?

Why is she driving? Get her in the passenger seat. So you got a lot of response from other women.

Yeah, and it was just, it was amazing.

Because it was just, yes, and then by the third time, oh yeah, let me, let me keep speaking about this because I started to realize that I was so not alone. Yeah, that is the best feeling when you're like, oh, I'm losing it.

I'm, oh, you guys are all going through this too. Oh, wait. Yes, this is normal. Oh. Another conversation I want to have with you,

which we referenced a little bit above, was there's such a fixation on youth culture. Ironically, every single woman that I have had sit in that chair has talked about the beauty and actually the piece that comes with aging

for you what has been the best part of getting older. The words that fly out of my mouth that I can't believe are flying out of my mouth. Yes, it's like my objective ego watches it. Life, life, I'll be in meetings and someone will say

something and I'll just say that's patriarchal. And then just keep talking or like, that's really rude. Or I just, it just flies out and I can't stop. And this was not my way. It was in.

I was more just kind of statewide introvert for with a five wing in the Enneagrams, people watching the holding,

and now I'm just like, boom, note, rude. patriarchal, misogynistic. What do people do when you do that? I don't care. (laughing)

You know what I mean? Don't know. I'm not as label-ified out. I'm some recent, oh, wow. I wrote that down.

“You referred to menopause as a truth serum”

because it's given you the freedom to say what you want, which is exactly what you're talking about right now. What is something that you've maybe just been recently more honest about that you're like,

oh man, younger, me would never.

Well, what I love about menopause is often people use the metaphor that, you know, every leaf on the tree gets pulled or every stone gets turned, you know. Like, no, for me, for me, it feels like the tree itself was ripped out of the ground and the roots are everywhere

and like good luck. And so everything, identity, sexuality, finances. Invisible load no longer being invisible. Girlfriends, deepening friendships. I think friendships are the most unsung

CEO at the deathbed perfect relationships that make for so much repair and correction in healing. And we don't talk about it very much. We talk about dating, which is the greatest. But friendships, oh, it keeps you sane

and stable and laughing. And laughing. We're so true.

“And like, speaking your mind and the power of speaking”

your mind, what is one thing also that in life,

you realize you kind of can't learn it. It just comes with age. For me, my reactivity has gotten less and less and less. Like, almost there's just more room for humanity. There's more room for vulnerability.

There's more room for power. There's more room for everything. There's more space as I get older. And yeah, it's not a roller coaster. I mean, it's a roller coaster, harmonally.

But it's not existentially a roller coaster. It's like an observation. It's like an observation. I mean, I'm in this observation seat and I'm charmed. These new generations, I'm just like so in love.

No, it's such a good point. It really is. It's like you have so much more perspective and appreciation for everything you've gone through

that you're like, that's not that big of a deal or that is.

But like, you're gonna get through it. Like, you've just done so much right? You've insight and that allows you to kind of observe more and not be as upset about things or reactionary. I think that's a great point.

Yes. And when we're supporting younger people, our, I don't know if it's certainty. But our solidity is helpful for them. I feel we need the generations above us to lean on and mentors and teachers and uncles and aunts.

Like, keep that going. It's such a good point. (upbeat music) You've been referencing this, but now I really want to get into it.

You have a new residency in L.A. called Butterfly with the Machete. That kind of blends your music with storytelling and insights from your life. And I just love the concept. It's genius and it's so interesting

and it begins in November. Yes. What is the number behind the name? Like, it's such a good name. It's so you, but please explain.

Yes, well, there is a moment inside. I don't even know what to call it. Musical, piece, show. Where I talk about menopause. And I'm such a symbologist and metaphor lover

that it's, you know, the trans mutation academically menopause. And then this beautiful butterfly will step you. (laughing)

“So that is, feeling like that's what I was going with.”

That's where you butterfly with the machete was born. Menopause, but the show itself is, you know, the 90s, the credo was stain your lane. And especially if you're a woman, stay in the reductive one.

Whatever one we ascribe to you, stay in the one. So then now, 20, 20, six is all about being everything. It's about your multitudinist. You have multiple intelligence. This is what's rock all of them.

You know, you want to do comedy and music and dance and movement and aesthetics and lights. And, you know, yes, terrifying, because I've been told to stay in one lane my whole life, but really, really liberating.

Yeah. How has this show as you've, you know, put it together, helped you continue to fight the idea that you're too much and too much is a bad thing. The whole show is about me grappling with the too muchness

and telling stories that I didn't care about stories, because I didn't care about myself. And then I worked with a woman named Ann Randolph who really supported me and seeing that stories can matter.

And then after working with her for a few years,

I finally care about the stories.

You're also embracing joy and fun.

“I heard that you're coming out with a holiday album.”

Oh, Anis. Yes. What inspired this? 'Cause I'm a holiday girly. I'm a holiday girl.

I love it. Then my son ever was born on Christmas day. So, I'm an extra holiday girl. Oh, okay. Christmas morning.

Okay, so yeah, we need a holiday album from you. Just because of that. You have a new street cred just because of that. And yeah, how did you would inspired this? Yes.

So every Christmas over the last few years, we've done sort of one song. And then as they were accumulating, and I love them so much.

I love seeing these songs.

I wrote a couple of new songs and we just made a record. So a song called "To an Empathic Christmas Time" and a song called "Christmas on the Dance floor." And this record is just so sweet. It's just been this labor of Christmas love for me.

Oh my God. I'm so excited. You don't even know.

“I'm gonna be sitting in my house with my baby.”

Oh, I'm gonna press play. I'm gonna be listening to you. And I'm just, all the vibes. All the vibes. Can I bring you broth or some stew?

Yes. Yes, you guys. Hi, protein. We're perfect. Perfect.

It's a date. Yeah. What is your favorite song, though, out of all the songs that you put together for this. Solid album.

I. Well, there's a Judy Garland song that Martin, Martin Shorten, I are gonna do. My favorite to sing is what child is this. And little drummer boy.

Yeah, your voice with that one. I'll be listening to that. I'll be crying. All the emotions will be flooding. Yeah, I'll be all the whole thing.

You can just envision it, can't you? Oh my God. Oh my God. Okay, last question. I could let it talk to you forever.

“But you first gave women the permission to be angry.”

What's next? What do you want to see women step up and own? For me, it's about seeing wholeness as a goal versus wellness.

And wholeness isn't always the prettiest,

most linear path, bringing things online parts that we've lost or denied or cut off. Bring in them all slowly online. That's what I love supporting people. You know, if you're going from R to S or B to C,

wherever the frick we are, that I'm with you as you go. I mean, that's it. And I'm doing the same thing. I'm a long side. No, I do love that message so much,

'cause I just think there's such an fixation on, yes, you're right, like wellness. And do this and be this and all of that. And yes, we can think about like the green juices and the pilates and all of that.

But really what we're also talking about, it's like trying to be this unattainable version of ourselves. And that's not realistic. And it's going to just make you feel like shit about yourself constantly.

So to try to find the wholeness in life, what makes you feel whole, what makes you feel good and how it be. - Yeah, what are your portals in? - Yes. - How do you get served?

So for me, it's, I don't even do Q and A anymore. I do Q and Q, right? That's just inquiry. We're just looking at it. That's all we're doing.

I have no answer. I don't know. I don't know you. But you have a lot of answers. I mean, I have, you have some more answers today.

- Yeah, okay, thanks. - I have answers for myself. - No, I don't have answers for other. - You are so interesting. And it was such a pleasure talking to you.

I knew we would have such a great conversation. - I was so excited to speak with you. But the different conversations we tapped into, and I think you're just such a savant, and I love speaking to women that are like so driven

and interested in what they do, and I just love how confident you are, like even the way that you talked about from your childhood to the romantic relationships in your life, to also how that impacts,

your work, and then being a mother, versus having not been a mother when you were younger, there's all the complexity of being a human being. And all the different sectors that we have to tap into, and try to fill our own cups with,

you are fascinating and so smart, and I can't thank you enough for opening up to me, and just going there with me today. Seriously, thanks. I'm so happy that you have such spaciousness and capacity.

Your capacity is very high. - So is your role. - Thank you. - Thank you, it was a pleasure. - Such a joy. - Thank you. - Thank you.

(upbeat music)