Emmy Rossum: Shameless, Motherhood & Knowing Your Worth

What is up, Daddy Gang?

“It is your founding father, Alex Cooper.”

We call her Daddy. [MUSIC PLAYING] Amy, we're awesome.

Welcome to Colorado, Daddy.

Thank you. OK. We have so much to talk about today. You have accomplished so much in your career. You got into the industry as a kid.

You spent nearly a decade of your life playing the fierce Fiona Gallagher that we all know and love on shameless. And you have fought for pay equity in Hollywood. So I am like, girl, we have a lot to talk about today.

OK. I'm so happy to meet you. Me too. The shirt. Look for it with the shirt.

Because I know you're a true New Yorker. We're the champions. Are you still clearly riding the high? It's never going to end. OK.

I've been waiting for this since I'm like six or seven years old. I became obsessed with basketball. I don't know why. I loved watching the sport. I deeply identified with John Stark's growing up

during that playoff run. I remember I wrote in my diary. He's so fiery on the court. And I just identify with him. I see myself in him.

And I love basketball because it moves really fast. And you can see all the player's faces really, really well. And I need to understand the emotional narrative of what's going on with the players in the game. Like football.

I'm too far away. I can't see their faces. Hockey. I can't see their faces. Tennis.

I like for the same reason. It moves fast. I can see them. I'm with them. I'm with the narrative.

What is going on? They're trash talking each other. I can see it. You want to see what I need to see the emotion. I want to see the drive.

I love it. I get so invested. I need it. I love it. OK.

Where were you when the next one? I was in Rhode Island with a bunch of actors and crew. I just finished a movie there. And so we kind of comment-deared this bar. The bar was actually-- I was like, hey, I'm looking for a place to watch the game.

And they were like, oh, yeah. That's great. We're actually having a thing on the roof to watch the game. I was like, amazing. And I got up there and there was all these like world cup flags.

“And I was like, what are we going to turn on the next?”

And they were like, what came or you talking about? And I was like, the only game to care about right now. You started out. Like the New Yorker starts coming out of you and you're like, yeah, it's like panicked. And it turned out that it was actually nobody there to watch the world cup so they turned

it into a next playoff game. And then a wedding ended up coming up and they turned out to be next fans. I cried. I cried.

I had a whole night because the first teaser for my show got like a 15 second spot.

And I only heard about it a couple hours before the game. And I was losing it. You're like, if there's ever my problem, then I am getting promo. It's right here right now that I actually care about the most. I was like, if we win tonight and my show has a promo on it, I can just-- I can just

die happy. And I didn't want to ask you when I was stalking you. There was an Instagram post that you shared five years ago when the next were also in the playoff. Oh, yes.

And you were in labor at the time. Yes. But it feels like there's a bit of like a chaotic story where like, are you putting basketball before giving birth? Like, can you tell the story?

Well, I was pregnant with my daughter and I knew that I was due. And I was very much in denial that I was in labor the first time. I remember I like gave my husband a haircut. I was cleaning the house. I ordered some Thai food and I had some contractions, but was like, kind of like, well, it's

probably fine. I was definitely scared of childbirth. My mother's mother had died in childbirth. So that narrative was very in the back of my head or my psyche somewhere. But what was in the front of my psyche was I was not going to go into labor and

until after the next game. And so I was laboring over a large kind of exercise ball in full labor as you're watching as I'm watching the next game.

“And in this photo, my mom is next to me on the couch being like, I really think you”

should just like go get the app at the door. And I was like, nope, I'm going to watch this game. And I'll go when I'm fully dilated. And then you what you call a new bird and you're like in labor. I actually labored the whole night before I went to the hospital in the morning.

My contractions never got any closer together than like eight minutes.

So I didn't think I was very close. And I was like, I don't think I can do like do much more of this. And then finally, yeah, I woke my husband up and I was like, we got to call a new bird.

And I was like, I think I don't want the playlist anymore. Like you would have played the labor playlist. Yeah. Wow. I get like the playlist ready.

And I was like, I am ill. I don't want the playlist anymore. I love you so much. Like, do I need a labor playlist? Maybe.

What kind of music do you have on it? There was like a lot of like hip hop or in there. Oh, okay. So not like a soothing. I don't think we knew what we were going up like.

I feel like I would be thinking more of like soft meditation, but you're like, we were not. Yes. His contribution to the labor was his playlist, which went unused because we took the

“Uber to the hospital and I remember I was like, sir, like, you really, I feel like you”

really got to step on it. And we were like driving up Park Avenue in the city and he, like, the light would turn like start to turn yellow and he would just stop. And I would like go into another contraction. Sir, do you want five stars?

He's like, you're Uber rating's going down. You're about to have a baby in my back seat. I know. And that was the fear. I was like, I just don't want to have this baby in the back seat.

But then I got to the hospital and you were fine. And they were like, my water still hadn't broken. And they were like, oh, you're eight centimeters dilated. Like, don't sneeze. Like, this baby's going to fall out of you.

Okay.

“What was it like the first moment you met your daughter?”

Wow.

I held her and I have a video of the first moment.

And I said, oh, my God, that's a person. And obviously, I've heard people say, like, and then you're staring at your child. And you're like, oh, my God, like, this is on us now. Like, we're, we're led to lead the hospital with this beautiful thing. But like, what do we do?

Did you have any of that feeling? Certainly, I was overtaken by the feeling of vulnerability. Just at this thing that you've been able to keep safe inside of you for so long is now outside of you. And it's so vulnerable and anything could happen to it, anything could hurt it.

The host part of anxiety for me was very, very rough, like, very intense and trusive thoughts. And I had had a kind of crazy journey to get pregnant where I have PCOS. So I had very, very debilitating ovarian cysts throughout my 20s and tried to get pregnant naturally. It didn't happen.

Tried IY didn't happen. And then tried IVF and it happened in a big way. I only did one harvest, but kind of side effect of PCOS is that you can kind of become a super responder. So I, they woke me up from the harvest and said that I had 72 eggs, yeah, which was trippy

and bizarre and I thought I'd maybe have 12 of course, and they were like I'm we fertilized them all. And I was like, what, yeah, so it had been a long journey to get to meet my daughter and

then when I finally had, it was also towards the end of COVID.

So I had been able to keep the pregnancy private the whole time, which is something I know you desperately wanted to. It is and I also love that like I get to sit here and talk with you about it and I know that so many women who have PCOS or did IVF are going to be like hanging on to everywhere

“that you're saying right now because I think what is so unique about women's experiences”

is they are so unique and that one is the same like you sang that you got 72 eggs. I was like, yeah, and then the offshoot of that was after you do IVF. They tell you to like monitor your weight in the next couple of days to see if you put on any water that you know, and I gained like 14 pounds in two days and I was like something is wrong here.

So I called the doctor and I just eaten like a big fat cheeseburger and I was like, I don't know, like I feel like a plump, grape, something is wrong and so I went back in and I had gone into hyper stem so they had to extract the fluid, which modern medicine

is incredible, but this procedure was bizarre and kind of barbaric.

I went in and they were like, how do you eat in today? Because we could do twilight. And I was like, I eaten a huge cheeseburger and they said, okay, well, we're going to have to extract this fluid and then they took out an enormous diet coke bottle and just like

And I was like, this is, this is, okay, I guess this is what we do.

“I know I'm like, oh, is there not like a normal tube that looks like we're like medical?”

I mean, I think, oh, wow, that's the also the fascinating part because I want to go through your whole life and we're going to get more into the other hood as we go, because I know you were also raised by a single mother, but that's the part of motherhood that's so fascinating is we act like it's such like, oh, and then she like had a baby and it's like, no, no, no, like the actual war that women are up against to even be able to

say, and then a baby came and it actually, there's so much like glamourization around and it acts like it's just like a normal casual thing. And it's like, this is so complex and there's so much that goes into it that I had no

“concept of and maybe I'm becoming even more aware of it, obviously, because I'm going through”

it, but like women are so incredible and it is overwhelming what we have to go through

to get to where the standard and the norm feels like it should be. Yeah. Okay, let's go back. So you're raised by a single mother. Yeah, she was a photographer. My mom was a photographer. She was my mom is very adventurous. She was a single mom and she met my dad on a airplane and he was not interested in being a dad. He left her

when she was pregnant. And so I didn't meet him until I was four and even then I didn't know who was my dad. But my mom was my mom is amazing. She's very adventurous. She was a corporate photographer. When I was little, she would travel a lot and she would do things like go to Saudi Arabia to do the annual reports for mobile oil and she would hang out of a helicopter like attached by a cable and take pictures of an oil rig. She photographed

like the making of the atom bomb for our government. She was Steve Jobs personal photographer for many years before I was born. And my mom is just like hugely impressive and capable in so many ways. Like we went to Japan and she could like order in Japanese and ask where the bathroom was. We went to France and she like broke out the the French with the cab

driver where they were like talking about the first World War in France in French and I was

like that's like real French. My mom is going to be 80 in January and she had me when she was 40 and she like I asked her last week. What are you doing this week mom? And she was like my dishwasher is fixed. So I'm going to is broken. So I'm going to fix it. And I was like what do you mean? Do you know how to fix a dishwasher? And she said no, but I will buy Friday and I called her and she fixed it. What a gift. Yeah. Have such a capable

inspiring intellectual mother. Yeah. As you're kind of like North Star to life. Yes. And watching the world through her eyes is like it explains a little bit obviously of why you are the way you are. How would you have described your relationship with her when you were young and growing up? We were close. But I certainly felt the absence of my dad. I certainly didn't want my mom to go to work. You know, my kids are 3 and 5 now and sometimes

it's hard when you go to work. Sometimes they have big feelings about this one time when

“I was like poor. I think I was like throwing a tantrum like don't go to work. Don't go to work.”

And my mom said, okay, do you know what happens if I don't go to work? And I said, what? And she said, we would sleep on the street. And I said, okay, she said, do you know what is like to sleep on the street? And I said, shrug, you know, I'm 4. I don't know. And she opened the fourth floor window. And she took my pillow and my blanket and my teddy. Huggy, who I still sleep with to this day. Of course. He is in my hotel room right now. Huggy. Huggy. He's a polar bear.

He's a polar bear. He's a little scary. He's very hugged on his belly. Have you gotten like re-stitched a little? He's been so operated on, Frankenstein. But she took all that and she put it out the window. And like I remember watching it like float down. And that was how she taught

fire. No. Oh, it was four floors down. Four floors down. So then did you walk down and have to go

“to the street. We went and got it. And then she went to work. Yes, she did. So I might do things”

differently now. But we were very, very close. I needed her. I wanted her. But she had to go to work. She made me understand survival in a very intense way. My mom's not a woman of feelings. She's a woman of like her love language is acts of service. And she's quite court practical. Like this is what it is. So this is what it is. Yeah. There you go. You're beddings in the courtyard. If you'd like to sleep there. But also as I've become a mother, I have found so much forgiveness

for my mother, for all the ways in which feelings were not her strong suit. Right? My mom's mom died when she was 13. She grew up in a really traumatic household. She was out of the house by the time she was 15 and went to Barnard College and merely made a life for herself as a single woman, as an adventurous single woman. So I know that I'm going to need forgiveness as a mom too.

“And I think as we step into these new chapters of our lives, we are afforded the opportunity to”

re-contextualize the ways in which our parents came up short for us. But still love them. Yeah. I remember I read somewhere you had said like in the past, you wanted to be worthy of being your mother's daughter. Oh, shit. And I was like, oh, that's a good one. I am. That's a heavy one. I certainly am. But that's like, but for my daughter, she doesn't have to do anything to be worthy of

being my daughter. Interesting. Yeah. She's amazing. Like my mom and I never had a lot of money.

But I never felt that as a kid. She never bought herself new underwear. She took care of me. She put me in a private school. Like everything went to taking care of me and putting and funneling into me. So even though she may have not, you know, been able to be all the things that conventional mother is supposed to be. Should be all the way hate should's. She did a lot for me and I love her very much. I was going to say it's um really impressive because talking about,

you know, to women living in an apartment together in New York City. So I was 18. One bathroom. Like that is one bedroom. I can picture it and then to know. So you went to one of the most prestigious prep schools in the city. What were you like at school? Like how would your teachers have described you? It's funny because I found my old report cards. She gave them to me. She had everything saved from my childhood and she was like, I want to give these to you. I was really into drama,

really into art, really into make believe. Um, and I had a solid group of friends, a very small group of friends from day one. My best friend, Dorie, Joanna, Pam from day one. Dorie, who is still so my best friend, they're actually all my close friends. But Dorie bought the apartment three floors below me so that we can raise our kids together. It's very like Fiona and then Kevin V. The neighbors next door. I love it. I love it. And our kids literally go up and downstairs the backstairs

to hang out. And it's like very a little community in our little apartment building. We actually lived across the street from each other and decided it wasn't close enough. And she's all the apartment I moved into my building would have became available. This is like making every shameless fans so happy right now because I'm just picturing you and like the chaos of going up downstairs

“and all of you being so close. Wow. It is amazing. And were you an overachiever in school?”

No, but I never really found my place or my people in school. But it was my second grade music teacher

that recommended that I go audition at the Opera at the Children's Chorus. And I did. And that's how I ended up singing at the Children's Chorus. And then I loved it. The second I walked into the opera, it was like I had found my people, my place. That's where I was reading. So you were seven years old when you started singing at the met. Yeah. 11 you landed your first TV roll. 16 life changes. You starred in the movie The Phantom of the Opera. 17. 17. Yeah. Um, did your mom have any hesitations

about you going into this career? Well, my mom was an artist. And so being an artist was a noble

opera to sing there for $10, $20 a night to have that outcome. My mom was very aware that there were

dangers and drawbacks to this. When you had, you know, I like mentioned the pressure that you put

“on yourself to be worthy of your mom. Did you bring that mindset into your career at all?”

I, I, I had a lot of natural drive and ambition to be the best that I could be. And also, there was a lot of rigor that came with being at the opera. You were expected to go on stage, perform, get it right every single time. There was like not a lot of leniency for fucking up. And so that really made my own, you know, Virgo perfectionism, like really kicking to high drive. But I felt when I walked out onto stage that that all evaporated. It was so easy for me to share

to feel that I could lose myself in that and that there were people that were sitting there every night experiencing that live with me. It was mad. I, you have said that you liked to be a little terrified by a role. Yes. What feelings draw you to that of wanting to be terrified? Well, it's different in life. I think in life, you know, you have that little smoke detector in your head and like when you're young. You're like, oh, I think I hear something beeping. Like,

maybe the battery needs to be changed or like, oh, it's a little hot in here. Like, maybe I should turn on the AC. Like, is that the smell of sighing? I'm sure my neighbor's making cookies. Like, no, bitch, your hair's on fire. Get out of the house. Right. So in life when you hear this smoke

“detector, you have to run from it. But in art, when you hear the smoke detector, you move towards it”

because that says that there's something there for you, something unexamined in yourself, something that scares you, something that causes you shame. And those are the things that we must examine about ourself, about our characters, about our womanhood, about our society. We have to know different than what you do. You're unafraid to look in the places that other people don't want to look. Yeah, that makes me think about Fiona Gallagher. Like, let's talk about, yes.

So your character on shameless. She was ferocious. She was resilient. She was pretty self-destructive

at times. Yeah. Okay. Take me to the moment that you read the script for the first time. Like,

“what drew you in in the way that you're kind of talking about right now about Fiona?”

It was unlike anything I had done before. It was raw. There was sexuality. There was longing and yearning for an absent parent, which is something that hit deep for me. There was kind of like this slightly chaotic environment that was based on survival that also felt very familiar to me. There was deep love and connection and loyalty in that family. And that hit deep for me. And there was a sense that even though they were in an economic depression, they were not

depressed. They refused to be. And there was resilience and love. And I knew it was mine. I knew it was my role. I knew it was for me. There's like sometimes when you read things you're just drawn to them and you're like, yeah, I volunteer is tribute. You don't, I mean, you put me in code.

And didn't they at first not feel that way about you? No. I was told that they thought I was too

princessy. I had come off, Mystic River, day after tomorrow, Phantom, Poseidon Adventure. I had walked a lot of red carpets and press tours for those. And I had not displayed that level of rawness in a performance certainly. But I think only an actor knows what they're capable of, which is why it's so important for all artists to take their careers into their own hands and get into the driver's seat because only you know what you have inside. I mean, and just like now knowing,

I mean, I was such a fan of the show and I still am like the environment that you were able to create with your character, like it felt so immersive. Like when you're watching the show, I'm literally a part of this family. Like I can't stop watching and you, you all did such a good

unexpected about yourself in the process? I had always wanted a big family. That was so emotional

“for me to like walk in and firstly make a pilot. You never know if it's going to go. But before we”

made the pilot, they gave us a week in the house in the space, which was built on a stage in the Warner Bros. Lot. And in the kitchen, the director Mark Milod put a bunch of cold cuts and bread. And at that time, the fridge still smelled fine. After years and years of the fridge getting unplugged and re-plugged and the fridge smelled so bad by the end and they would put Go Pros in the fridge. We would have to open the fridge, you know, because there's a little camera inside and we would

get something and you would have to plan when you would take your breath. It was like a joke we all

played, because like an old fridge just like there's something wrong with it. It was like something had died in the fridge smell it and I'm not even there. It was so bad. I'd like you would be like

“okay. So as I'm coming around the kitchen island, I'm going to take my breath here and”

I'm in the kitchen right now. Okay, I'm going to get hot felt like it was crazy. But the first week that we were in in that house, it was magic. It was we were all and that kind of what it's like being on a show. It's like summer camp or love island. You're all in with less glam. You are all in the same place. You are caring about the same thing. You are talking about the same thing. You are eating your meals together. I was so those cold cuts were in there. So I could prepare the meals

for the family for our week of rehearsals. The fridge smells still smelled great, so it's fine. Okay.

But it was really this amazing time where we were sharing and getting to know each other and there

was rigor on the set too. We didn't have a huge budget. So we would shoot up to 8 or 10 pages a day. Sometimes when we went to Chicago, there were no sides on set ever. No sides. All actors were no sides for crew either. You were explain what that means? Yeah, so when you get to set ordinarily, people shrink down the script to this kind of like pocket-sized version. And you just have the pages that you're going to shoot that day. So if actors haven't learned their lines,

which some choose not to, they can look at them or people can refer to them. So everyone's got a little like mini, mini Bible of what you're making today. John Wells doesn't believe in that. He believes everyone should show up and be ready to do the job. So he doesn't make those available. They're literally not produced. So if you want sides on set, you got to lug your whole script around. So that meant that everyone showed up completely ready to work. At all times, there were no last

looks. Last looks is when your hair and makeup team come in when they say the cameras are ready to roll and they touch you up. Zero. We didn't have sides. We didn't have last looks. It was the best training camp for 10 years of show-up on time. Be ready. This is my home. It's my home. I don't need touch-ups. I don't want touch-ups. I want to make, I want to make, let's make some feeling. Right. This is like the offer. You're like, this is it. And I know that there has been reports

of like 20-hour production days and the set could be challenging at times. How do you look

“back on that period when you like hear those things? Like, do you stay positive?”

I mean, I love that show and our experience so much. 20-hour production days are they happen. And when we were in Chicago, we would shoot two units at once. We would, so you would be shooting over here. You would change sometimes like in a restaurant at gas station or sometimes like you would do a quicky change like behind a dive coat on the sub on the L train. You would go to the next location. But we were so in meshed with each other. We were so in each other's lives.

We spent 10-16-20 hours a day, five days a week, five months a year for nine years together. So it's impossible not to be so close. Did you ever feel like your work ethic was mislabeled in the press or in those moments where you were showing up and doing your job? That wasn't my experience. I felt very, very nurtured and shepherded by John Wells who encouraged me to direct on the show, which I got to do many times. My cast also was very championing

of me to do that. I certainly come to this set to work and I bring my all and I think like many women,

and I, I felt like I was, I felt like I was born on that job that I, that's where I learned to

“direct. John also was so shepherding of my writing as well, giving notes on the first script that”

I had written, hiring me to direct on another one of his shows. And those are all my buds. Like we're close. I'm seeing one of them tonight on set. So I'm really grateful for that time and it has a just nothing but tapping us in my heart for it. Okay. We're going to close out shameless conversation with some rapid fire. Okay. If you had to pick which of Fiona's exes would she end up

with? Jimmy's teeth. They're just, they're just so good to gather. I mean, yeah, he's, he's not always

honest at all, but I just love them together. Jimmy's teeth. They're, they're, Jimmy's in the honesty lies, the problem. Yeah, love. His name was one thing. Love them. It's another thing. He was cast before I was, too.

“Yeah. And we had made a movie together called Dragon Ball Evolution a couple of years before. So I already”

knew him and the second that I knew he was cast. I couldn't wait to work with him again. Oh, that's amazing. Okay. Which Gallagher sibling were you the closest to off camera? Lip. Okay. Let's talk about good old Jeremy. Yeah. Who do you think was more stubborn, character-wise? Fiona or lip? Lip.

But what team do you know that? You're like, obviously. Yeah. He was the problem. Okay. What is your

one of, one of your favorite memories with Jeremy Allen White on set? Anytime we had a scene that was just us where we could really dig in either a quiet scene or scenes where we went at each other. He's so he has so much soul and he brings so much intensity and so much truth and honesty. That's the kind of the beautiful thing about playing characters for, I mean, I made 110 episodes of the show. They made more than that than I did. And after a certain point, the writers start to write little

bits of you in there. And they start to understand like the symbiosis of how you guys work together.

And I'm so happy for him and proud of him and he's such an incredible human being and incredible

actor. And I just feel lucky that we got to share all those scenes together. No, I know I was thinking about that like how crazy to see that success that he's having and have been probably feeling like he's like a brother to you on this set. And then to see obviously like you both having so much success that must be so gratifying. It's amazing. It's amazing. Okay. What is your favorite off-camera memory that you have with the cast? In Chicago, we had this massive massive snow storm and we got

shut down for one day. We would go to Chicago to shoot twice a season and we all stayed in the same hotel and we would be in and out of each other's rooms and we ate all meals together and we got this piece of cardboard to like be a makeshift sled and Justin Chattwin saw a truck and got on the piece of cardboard and like rode it down the road. He's such a, he's such a daredevil and I have this video of us while watching him do it being like don't do it but also do it. Oh and that was kind of like we

had a lot of kind of mischievous play and that truck craziness and it was just incredibly fun.

“Love it. What Fiona decision will you go down defending? God. I mean I think”

the worst time she ever fucked up was when she left the cocaine around that I think Robbie had given her and Liam got into it and he ended up hospitalized for it and I think that that was the worst I ever saw her and certainly when I read it I was terrified of the scene because of how I I cared about Fiona even though it made for really good drama. Oh my god not you like reading that scene you're like I'm like oh it's really good drama but like oh god I gotta do this now. Okay off the

top of your head most emotional scene to film certainly in the prison the strip search scene was really very challenging. It's so crazy because that show was so funny in moments like my parents are rewatching it and they're like it's dark. What's an iconic line of dialogue from the show that you

a joke of look what you could have had Craig Heisenar. That's like maybe Shinole's line but maybe not and it was about Taylor Kinney who played this guy Craig Heisenar that Fiona was into in high school and he ends up married but then she ends up sleeping with him even though he's married.

“I like that line so I think I don't know if that was in there but that's what we used to say a lot.”

Okay I want to talk about a huge accomplishment of yours your fight for pay equity on shameless.

How did you first decide to even take that on? Well when I started the show it made a lot of sense

that may seem made a lot more money than me. He was coming in much older and much more accomplished tons more credits and number one on the call sheet and then by season three they approached us we had a six-year contract approached us to add another year and I think my lawyers felt at that time that we had the receipts. Like we could see the way the short storylines were shaping,

“we knew about fan engagement and we felt that it made sense to ask for that. We didn't get it.”

And that's fine we thought you know we tried we didn't get it and then in season five or six they came and they asked for more more years so I guess at six we extended to seven and then maybe in seven they came and they asked for eight nine that's right and by that point I had been directing a lot on the show and it very much felt like a two-hander and we said let's go for it again. It was kind of shut down pretty fast and we kind of that kind of lingered for a while

and then I wasn't sure if we were gonna get it. It's always scary asking for what you think

“your worth to say I think this is what I'm worth. You have to take up space in the room and”

it's their job to make the show for as little as possible to make the most profit. That's any business runs that way so Kai can understand it from the other perspective too. And I didn't know if they were gonna come over to our side and do it or not. And we were getting kind of close to filming the next season and I was one day sitting I was like on a writer's retreat and I was procrastinating and I opened

up Twitter and it was a headline that we were in like a stalemate and I was shook. Because you had intended for this whole thing to say private. Yeah it's a private business

negotiation negotiation and I never imagined it would become public not just for the public but

also for the rest of the cast in the crew. Right because the cast wasn't aware obviously everyone was doing their own negotiation and so I certainly didn't want that. How did you manage that once it broke on Twitter like did you reach out to cast and they reach out to you like because it's a little awkward. I didn't say anything and after the first headline or article I was kind of like refreshed, refreshed, refreshed. What's gonna happen? And the tide really shifted.

People seemed to write other articles like immediately commenting on that. Kind of being quite surprised that I wasn't already being paid equal and it was resolved within a day. I was shocked and quite frankly very very surprised that we actually got it. Wow so maybe the public commentary actually really helped in your favor because it like woke people up to be like she's not delusional. Yeah like guys what are we doing here? Yeah I also

and it's kind of you know they're competitive and it can even be strategic and when a woman does it you can just come off as difficult and ungrateful for what you have been given. As you were navigating all of that before it you know got released on Twitter did you feel this pressure to remain

“likable during the negotiations because these are people that you know you have to work with.”

I only desire to remain professional and my focus is never on money. It's on

what's fair and what's right and I believe that people should be paid for their labor. It was really about being valued equally when I was doing equal work. So for me it was as simple as that and I was very very happy when we got it and very very happy for what it seemingly did for for other women who I you know I was like in a health food store in Ontario or somewhere in Canada making a movie a year later and a girl in the health food store

said to me oh thank you so much for what you did for pay equity we all asked for a raise here and I couldn't imagine that it had traveled so far. I think you know I think ambition and

“wanting to be in the driver's seat of your life is not something to be shied away from. I think”

I think likable is is should not be the focus. It focuses on outward in not what we know to be true about ourselves and our worth. And I think like I agree I think that's the goal right. I remember when I interviewed Ellen Pompeo and she talked to me about her contract negotiations with Grey's Anatomy and she was like girl no one is going to give it to you. You have to ask for that's interesting we had the same agent oh my god very interesting oh but it's very I like her very

much. I like her very much too yeah oh wow okay because when Ellen said that to me I was like oh my you're so right no one is going to give it to you you like you got to go for it. There were also a lot of men on my team who were like let's get this. We are going to get this. We are not going to go back unless we get this so it wasn't me saying I want this there were a lot of times where I felt scared and wanted to cave. I was like who cares I love

this show I love these people I want to do this and they were like no we're not doing this we're

not doing it because I had caved once before. I had caved in the first contract negotiation and

“yeah I also just I really appreciate you talking about it because I think it's just such an uncomfortable”

conversation for so many people because you think about money and you think about men and so like we're kind of dancing around a topic that historically just has not been synonymous with women and so to re-accumate people's brains to like no no no no I'm doing the same job as this person who happens to be a man but why are we not making the same amount or what like where is the pay equity yeah it sparks a larger conversation like Twitter obviously took it and ran with it but it does still

there is that fear within you that it's fascinating it's like would a man be scared because we're kind of trained of like how far do you want to push it and I'm so pleased that now this equity conversation is being had it is very hard for women to get what they are worth because there is a double standard do you have any advice for women who have a hard time advocating for themselves and and for their worth practice it at home practice saying it out loud practice saying

what you need and what you want in every aspect of your life sexually say what you want with your partner say what you want eat what you want for dinner don't eat the thing you think you should eat for dinner do what you really want and and treat yourself in the way that you want to be treated it's also like I wanted to stay in the job I loved the job I wasn't walking away from the job I loved the job and I loved the job until it felt like there wasn't enough juice to squeeze

out of the lemon we had made a hundred and ten episodes and by the time I left and they offered

us two more years I I had already started my production company I had set up my first show and I was

to the other job and I you know I think a common misconception is I left to go have babies

“that's could not be further from the truth I left to go make the show I had been developing”

that our showrunner John Wells had encouraged me to kind of get in the driver seat of my own career and make my own shows and make things and I left with a lot of grief and sorrow because I would I would miss all those people and I couldn't believe that they were going to go on the journey without me but I was also really excited I felt like I was launching and a new show ready to start this new chapter of my life also I I wasn't aware of that rumor I'm like that of course that is

so on the nose I mean what we're like of course it was people like she left the industry to go have babies she moved back to New York obviously yeah obviously for us um I want to talk about dating yeah I love that topic okay when you look back on your life yes do you notice any patterns or okay you're like where do I begin put me in coach let me write you a dissertation right now patterns or similarities between the guys that you were drawn to in your single and early dating days oh

intensity intensity

intensity I don't know fine well I don't know my first great love

was when I was about 18 and he was the older brother of one of my closest friends so I had known him a little bit from when I was younger and he asked her to ask me if he could ask me out and I thought it was so cute and she was kind of like LOL like this is gonna work out like usual total go out with him so I did and he picked me up in a hammer which I thought was ridiculous and I told him immediately this is a ridiculous vehicle for New York City in New York

uh this man owned a hammer in New York City and um he thought it was flex though for sure color was it I was like light green or gray or it was not amazing okay um but I gave him shit for it and um he liked that so I liked that um and then the second date he um oh he let me drive

the car I had had no license and I had never driven a car and after dinner he was like do you want

to drive you know yourself home and then I'll drive the hummer do you want to drive the hummer and I was like I don't have a license and he's like I'll teach you how to drive and I was like what this is great and he was like you gotta accelerate into the turns and I was like oh this guy's intense like love this um we didn't kiss um and I started dating him when I had shot day after tomorrow in Phantom of the Opera but neither of them had come out yet so is this

like quiet little chapter in my life before everything kind of exploded and the second date I was on the press tour for the day after tomorrow and what a good movie hefe thank you oh so fun to make um I love Jake Jellanol and we we were on the press tour in Paris and he

flew to Paris to take me on the second date and second date this man flew to Paris he was

“20 I was 18 I think and he said I've got a surprise for you and he shut down the”

Palace of Versailles and took me on a date there I mean it was it was epic he shut down Versailles for you and it was Misty and Raining and you're only kissed for the first time at the Palace of Versailles and I was like this is the rest of my life right how is it a second date intense very intense and when you look back like what does that intensity in a relationship like really feel like an ignite in you um I don't know I I'm also drawn to people that are very good at

what they do his family was art dealers and he was extremely educated in art and history and spoke multiple languages and it was like a fisherman and could do a lot of things um and I

“found that really interesting I mean I I completely agree I think when you can be”

intellectually stimulated but also watching someone be really good at a craft it's extra and also like

I don't want to be in a situation ship I don't want to be like is he a no I will know if I like you

“and I want to know if you like me but date two yeah Paris yeah Versailles we're shutting it down”

yes it leaves a fall off opportunity because what is date three four five and where do we go from here when the intensity is so intense like obviously you're saying you saw patterns I mean we were together for almost two years and 18 that's pretty long yeah when did you ever come down from that relationship well I maybe were together for a year and half it felt like a long time I

it was the first time I moved out of my house where I'd grown up with my mom and I moved into his house

with his family his whole family so my friend they all lived on different floors of the house so my friend that I had grown up with she was like on the third floor we were on the second floor the parents were on the top floor it was like all a big family in a house I love how the people when they were trying to cast you for shameless they're like I don't know if you're really her everything in your life so far it's like I am Fiona Gallagher in a different extent and then

the first time I went away to make a movie when we were together I was gonna be gone for six months

just in LA and it was the first time we've really been apart and we had been to the Oscars together we had really kind of in mesh to each other's lives and my world had really kind of changed and exploded and he had been along you know for the ride on that with me and I was gonna be away for six

“months and he worked in New York and I remember on a call he said something like well do you think”

you're gonna like continue to do more of this and I said hopefully that's the plan and that was not the answer he was looking for and so I was really heartbroken I right cried for hours for days

days I was very heartbroken because you're basically like do I pick my career or the guy I'm in love

with yeah and I was like well my identity cannot be the cost my being an artist which I've been since I'm seven years old cannot be the cost for being in love did you find that you continued to crave intensity again sure did you slow things down ever did you ever have a slow burn at me I know my husband is a slow burn we're gonna get there yeah we're gonna get there don't

“fact we're okay okay hold on yeah we're still in the like you were looking for intensity yeah”

you would find yourself enjoying it in the beginning yes eventually it would burn out yes um 21 yes you got married oops oops okay tell me about what happened you know that smoke detector that you're supposed to hear in your head well I heard it and I ignored it um after I dated Versailles guy who we would call him now Versailles guy who's now by the way happily married lovely kids and I'm still friends with his sister um love that for him um I dated a guy whose favorite past time was breaking

up with me in public we would like to order the meal and then he would say things to me like just feel like you're growing so much from knowing me but like I don't know that I'm growing that much from knowing you yeah I'm like on average how many times you think he did this to you two or three and you would just sit there and like I really liked him I really liked him and this he was really he was really talented I was very attracted to his talent his power on stage we had

done Romeo and Juliet together and he had been Mercuchio and Mercuchio is just like the real panic dropper and I was just my yeah I really liked him and so they were like two very consecutive rough heartbreaks how did your mother feel about you getting married at 21 well she felt great about it because she didn't know yeah when she started I started dating Justin and he worked at in her scope records okay I was fine too um and we were dating for maybe a couple months

away for six months to Mexico to Durango Mexico the middle of Mexico and make this movie

and I remember the day that I was going away to make the movie he said something to me like I don't know if the relationship is going to survive the distance so like maybe we should break up or get married how could I make this up I mean yeah I literally had a flight that night

“to Durango Mexico and so I think the decision that we she's done she's done I am obsessed with”

you you're like so it had we had to get married yeah so from either breakup or get married yeah well at that moment I thought to myself well I'm just coming off these two really rough heartbreaks like abandonment is my core wound I don't want I don't want that that hurts me and I literally thought my 21 year of 20 20 year old 21 maybe yeah my 21 year old brain thought you know divorce doesn't seem that complicated like it it's probably pretty straightforward

how did that work out it wasn't not straightforward okay it like I but but no but it you know and I I knew that I I knew the divorce before 100% and so we he he literally printed out like a marriage contract online and got some guy on the internet to like come over to my house I found like a white turtleneck that was in my closet and like threw it on because like I was like this is appropriate right yeah yeah literally not hearing the smoke detector in my head being like

don't do this you don't have to do this no guys should be like let's marry you know what I mean it was my intention not to tell anyone because I knew in my gut it wasn't right how long remarried for

“I think we're married for oh I was away for six months when I got back it became abundantly clear”

we weren't a match in any way um did he come to visit you in Mexico I don't think so oh I don't remember that's interesting that's interesting because he's like not that long of a flight I don't know what I like ever was very dramatic I don't know like it's literally just like go you people go to Mexico for the weekend like what are we talking I love it it's like if you leave like we're not gonna make it so we have to get married so they're so dramatic okay okay so you come back

and then eventually you're like this isn't the thing when did you tell your mom I told my mom hey I'm breaking up with Justin and I need a lawyer and she was like you did not

I was like I did and my mom has always been somebody that mobilizes my mom is like like if

anyone is going through a breakup my mom is not employed right now so if you need someone to show up she'll like send you for a manicure and be like I have the you haul like go take care of yourself your mom's first name Cheryl Cheryl is going to be there to be like girls let's get the divorce papers yeah oh wow okay so she mobilized for you yeah she mobilized and you got the fuck out almost a decade later yeah you met your now husband yes on a movie set what drew you to him

was there intensity there tell me everything okay we met on my birthday

we had a meeting about a movie that he had written the first movie that he was ever going to make

and when a director offers you a movie they send you an email through your agents and there's usually the script maybe a lookbook and usually a letter that expresses why they think you're right for the movie and tells you a little bit about the movie and sometimes with the first time filmmaker they'll tell you a little bit about themselves so no yeah so I brought you the letter because I knew we were going to talk about relationship I am sad no one has ever done this on call

her daddy Emmy I have the letter where is my letter oh notary the whole thing because my husband is long-winded his films are long and his letter is long but this is the letter that he wrote me I'm

“gonna read some excerpts of it give it to us oh I'm so ready so here's the thing you're a beautiful”

successful actress thank you with a long career ahead of you doing my movie would require you to take a gamble and somebody you don't know so I'll give you a rough sketch of whom we're dealing

but I hunch my parents are Egyptian but I was born in New Jersey I'm too nerdy to be a hipster and too cool to be a nerd so I have friends and enemies on both sides of the aisle the entire situation fills me with a lot of anxiety a lot I do not care much for money I also don't have much

of it given my incredible Dartmouth NYU student loan debt I also want to make movies because I

have to I'll explain I was in therapy the other day analyzing the very subject I wanted to be a filmmaker ever since I was eight and it's been a long, long, arduous journey to get there and I'm telling all of this to Caudle that's my therapist's name it's pronounced like Caudle how fitting anyway Caudle sits there all intense and pensive like he normally is and says the same thing he normally says this is just your career Sam there's more to life than your work I hated him for using that word

I finally told him stop using that word this is not a career that session turned ugly and weird

“but it also turned out to be very important it's when we realized I don't look at this like a job”

it's the same way a mom wants to be a mom a dad wants to be a dad or a pet wants to be petted it's a want that just is if there were a parallel universe where filmmaking was the equivalent of a 30,000 dollar a year factory job I'd be there and I was like who is this that sounds immediately into it he's like I'm in therapy I'm like check check I love my job I'm tall but I hunch I'm like who is this I'm weird but I'm not a nerd I'm not a hipster like all the everything so when you get that yeah

what is your first reaction I was sitting in the hair and makeup trailer a shameless and I

was reading the letter before I had read the script and I turned to Chanel a Hampton

“and Sharon Rivera our head of hair and was like can I read to this letter I think I'm supposed to know”

this person and there was something that was just like immediately familiar or intriguing or something so I read the script and it was undeniable and I was like who is this person and then I met him and he showed up in an American apparel hoodie in a vintage Prius and he had lookbooks upon lookbooks upon lookbooks about what the film was going to be how he was going to make it and I was immediately impressed by his work ethic and his vision and thought he was a really interesting

person what did it feel like after you are like I am so impressed with this person I am already into it by his writing then you meet him see him for the first time here his voice when does it turn from work to romance we knew each other for about a year we developed the movie when found financing for the movie but the movie together he cast it and then we started we had spent time together over that year and I remember I started thinking about life through the lens of him

I would be eating a sandwich and I'd be like wonder if Sam likes tuna or I'd be like you know I drove past a museum and was like I wonder if Sam would like to see the Kubrick exhibit wonder if Sam would think that's funny and I was so curious about him and I had spent so long trying to find someone that I thought would understand me when I realized maybe what I

am after is trying to find somebody I never want to stop trying to understand like I was so fascinated

by him and then but a week before I made the movie he came over to my house for dinner and he said I've just been to therapy and I really have to get this off my chest, cuddle and I talked about this and I just have to tell you that I love you and we hadn't even started the movie yet I was like huh um I did not say it back I did not know how I felt um and then we started the movie a week later

“what did you say back bone appetite I don't really remember saying much of anything I think he said”

something like but I don't mean it like that what I mean is like I mean I do but I also don't like

I'm sure that I'll be at your wedding and I'll always love you from afar and nothing ever has to

happen obviously it won't and I just needed to say that and then the rest is history eventually yeah I mean the second that I got on set and I saw him he was so kind and capable and he played really good music a video village and he gave really good notes and so suddenly he went from someone something he was really sexy his like quiet power was like oh no so then

“I said after the first week I think I love you too and he was like no you don't and I was like”

yes I fucking do and he was like okay here's what's gonna happen I'm gonna kiss you and you're gonna be like I don't feel anything and then we're just gonna go back to the way and I was like what are you doing just do it already and he's like but I can't mess up the movie and I was like okay

it won't and we didn't mess up the movie and then we kissed and we've basically we broke the couch

we broke the couch we had an L sofa and we broke the couch we broke the couch yeah and that was 14 years ago 14 years yeah can you talk about how you've said throughout our conversation today you know like I have these abandonment wounds and you know I know your relationship with your or lack there of relationship with your father was extremely complicated like how did you

“finding such a stable and credible part that you love so much like have you been able to look at”

that relationship with your father and whether it's heal some wounds or just like how do you feel about it now oh it's such a good question my relationship with my husband and watching him be the world's greatest girl dad he was like made to be a girl dad it's the ultimate healing the ultimate and my husband is so loyal and so kind and so giving and so everything I've really ever wanted that's so beautiful I didn't even think about that like you're getting it's it's healing

watching him do to your daughters what and then get you didn't get yeah and to watch him do it so

incredibly yeah effortlessly and to do it to such a caliber that like you're he would never

ever leave her wow that's really beautiful because I feel like I'm sure there's so many women watching who have complicated relations or don't have relations with their father and that is such a from experience with my friends who have a similar situation where you're like I don't have the relationship and I and some of my friends like I don't even want it but trying to find your way forward with those male figures in your life and like put in place like what that would

look like in your ideal world to be able to like get it and to watch it how healing that must feel I'm so happy for you it's moving yeah it is have you ever reached out or ever spoken to your father again since yeah yeah yeah you're younger okay I met my dad when I was four but I wasn't told he was my dad and why was that he told my mom that he wouldn't come if she told me who he was so you thought you were just meeting like a guy came one of my mom's friends came to take

me for dinner for my birthday and I was four or five so I didn't ask many questions about it I didn't really get it and sky came and took me for dinner and we went first begotty and I don't

“remember much of it the only thing I remember is I you know kids cut their spaghetti and I remember”

he said we don't cut our spaghetti and I went home and my mom was like how was it and I was like he said we don't cut our spaghetti and she was like okay so then a couple years later after hearing at school and kindergarten in first and second grade you know who's your dad why you know it wasn't common to have a single parent household at least the when I was growing up it wasn't as common all the families that I grew up in looked very traditional and conventional and so I felt that

absence very much and so I started asking my mom more and more who's my dad just told me who's my dad and she's like remember that guy that came to take you for dinner and I was like we don't cut our spaghetti guys my dad and she's like we don't cut our spaghetti guys or dad and I was devastated I was like I didn't like we don't cut our spaghetti guy she's like I know yeah and then did you

but I did but did develop a deep crush on Dev and Sawas so the day was not for not completely

“lost yeah okay um and then I didn't really see him again until I was on shameless in my 20s and”

we tried a couple times um but he's just not really interested in loving me

oh but my husband is amazing with my daughter and getting to watch him play with her pick her up from

school be so incredibly devoted as a dad and to my son too um getting to watch the fact that I got to give her something that I didn't get is I get to live by curiously through that and that's enough for me it's beautiful intimacy yeah how has your understanding of intimacy changed since you're early 20s well I'm so much better at asking for what I want now I you know that that little voice inside of you that says I'd like to be touched like this or I'd like this or I don't

like that or that feels I felt that my voice felt quiet and stifled when I was younger I felt

shame about expressing desire I felt shame about expressing specifics that I wanted about

“using the words but you have to tell somebody what you want and also what you want on Monday doesn't”

mean you want it on Thursday and it's okay to say yeah I wanted that on Monday I don't want that today you know like it's okay to grow and change and I feel like I have a lot more comfort and part of that was my pregnancy because my hormones were so strong and I felt so sexual I was so down that it was the voice was so loud in my head it was screaming that I couldn't ignore it can we talk about motherhood yeah my favorite topic I'm pregnant obviously

and I feel like a lot of the advice that I'm getting for parenting advice a lot of people just keep saying like oh my god you kind of just have to figure things out like that's people can try to prepare you and tell you what's going to happen how did you personally embrace the uncertainty of not having all of the answers and not being able to look at the page like you said you do your script and fill in the blanks and prepare and be ready and then get on to that set and like

take it 100% like a pro you kind of can't do that from what I just have with motherhood of me

tell me you kind of you can't like you can prepare but then you never know how things are going to hit

you and there's like so much instinct to play you will just know at least for me I can only say for my experience I saw my child I knew my child and I was so taken I you know I had the same thing where that I said about my mom I wanted to be a mother that was worthy of being this child mother and then I realized I'm trying too hard I'm trying too hard to be worthy of anybody else I just got to be me and and women are always told you can have it all you can but that actually

“means you have to do it all and it comes at a cost and often that cost is not your job and not”

your kid but you so when my daughter was 10 months old this is the same story when my daughter was 10 months old this is my therapist calls the pancake problem I was going to shoot on the crowded room and I had like a 16 hour shoot day and I was waking up before she was going to wake up and I was coming home way before right after she was going to be asleep and I was like how will my daughter know that I love her today she will think I don't love her today she's 10

months old she doesn't know what's going on right literally doesn't know what's going on I don't know what's going on okay let the car is going to pick me up in like 20 minutes but I have to do some things that my daughter knows I love her today so I have to take a shower I have to get in the car in 20 minutes but I'm going to make my daughter pancakes from scratch also before I leave this is so I turn on the stove I make the batter I turn it on low I put three little pancakes in the pan

got a flip I ran to the shower got in the shower shampooed washed it out ding ding ding ding the

“timer goes off time to flip the pancakes got to get out of the shower but I still have to”

condition so I'll have to get back to the shower but this is also so postpart of like I would like in it like I make sure you like wet towel like run it on naked I'm but I make it I don't time for a towel the pancakes are on and I'm in the shower and I got to be in the car in 15 minutes run to the pancakes they're perfect flip them gorgeous golden brown perfection sprint back to the shower but I left the shower door just to crack open so the water is on the floor so I slip

and my foot gets caught under the shower door and I hear like a crack and now I'm like down on the shower floor and I then scream out like someone turned the pad gags off and then like army crawled to the kitchen the pancakes were fine I then called work and was like hey I'm gonna I'm gonna be a couple minutes late and I need to switch my pickup to Lennox Hill Hospital probably just like just like 20 minutes late I'm so sorry I just need like probably a quick x-ray and I'll be right and I'll just

get a quick x-ray and I'll be right there by the way I didn't hold camera I was like I was completely there on time I got the x-ray my daughter got the pancakes and at the end of the day I was like something's got a change we're like okay now let's say the story I'm like I thought that we were like we had to call in to work and we're like out for work no no she got the pancakes she did the work and she lost her mind yeah 100% and so this was a lesson I learned that year and got really

really good at being like I'm gonna do less but it's something that comes up for me a lot like just

last week I took I went to set I shot my first scene I had like the middle of the day off I took

my kids to the zoo I took them on a zip line we got lunch I went back to set did my last scenes went back did bath time bed time got on a zoom and I was like I'm depleted I got a so this pancake issue I think is real for a lot of women a lot of moms who really want to show up on every level in their lives they're showing up at work they're showing up for their kids no one is feeling it right but they're feeling it and so I think for me the biggest lesson is that sometimes

“it's okay to do a little bit less I know I feel like that's what everyone's like but then I feel”

so guilty of like one area has to suffer and like has that impacted the way that you view your career and success at all hmm well motherhood hasn't made me any less desire us of storytelling or ambitious. Clearly not as far over here today we're about to get there. Yeah and I think it's made me more strategic and clearer about when it's worth when the story is worth me missing even the smallest moments of my kids life like a normal day I wake up and I take them on

the public bus and I do drop off and if I go to set I go to set and if not I go about my day and I pick up like I want to be in my kids lives as much as possible. Your new project

yeah the show furious yeah it is your production companies second project yeah and you are both the

executive producer and you are the star yeah so congratulations thank you doing both um I am so interested to hear you talk more about it because it is obviously so like female lead and I know

“that's what your production company focuses on yeah but just tell us a little bit more about it”

from your perspective and what do you do it? I really wanted to go back and look at old films that had good skeletons of what could make a TV show and was really really looking for a character that would be as rich and as deep and as fascinating as Fiona that I could play for years and years and it's a really fascinating world it tells the story of my character Alice who is a former NYPD detective which is a very prestigious job it is not a job that people leave and Alice has

left the police department because she's been in an abusive relationship with another officer who she's known since her teenage years and she started over at the FBI so she's a new FBI agent who's really going to have to work her way up and she stumbles upon this idea that there's a murder that

killer this really fascinating mysterious woman who has been also a victim of violence and is

“kind of on a mission to enact vengeance and get justice for herself and Alice's plan to get justice”

on a much larger scale and we'll notice that though women are actually more similar than they are different and I was really fascinated too by what happens for women in law enforcement when they need to make a complaint on their own behalf like who do you call when your partner is hurting you and is also in law enforcement you call 911 and who answers the phone the partner of your partner whose responsibility is to watch each other's back on the street it is

incredibly complicated dynamic and very charged and for Alice who stumbles upon this case and then

gets back involved with the NYPD who she's been running from to have to see that former person at your new job when you've done everything to get away from them and also the relationship between Alice and her ex is one that had violence and control but also love and desire and loyalty and history for a very very long time so it's a very very complicated like fertile ground and one that I was like I could dig here for a long time. Well I agree I my team and I were talking

about who we just love these female characters and I know the show gets its title from the Greek goddess of vengeance. Yeah, multiple goddesses yeah who's one of inact vengeance. Can you explain what really sort of to interest you about female fury and rage? Oh well I think women have a lot to be furious about um that felt cheesy that I didn't mean it that way um that's the title of the show. Okay um no I think um I think sometimes as we see with these characters

our power does come from being underestimated um for both of these women they have to work in the shadows outside the the conventions and they both exhibit very risky behavior um and I think

“that that's why they're fascinating to watch. Something that I loved that you do a little differently”

is the central conflict yes being at first between these two women obviously there's so many layers

to it but I feel like neither woman neatly fits into the hero or the villain box which I love that so much and I'm curious like what interested you in kind of putting out a show that does live in the gray area. I love that. I mean I think that's so delicious. I think that there's so much more kind of juice to be found in moral gray areas and in people who seem one way but then surprise you and can be other ways. Mm-hmm. No I completely agree.

Are there any themes that you have been really pulled to in your life recently or any I don't know anything just like thematically that you're like oh that's also something I want to definitely explore in the future in a project or whatever it be that you're like I think that's something as a woman especially with my female lead company that I want to kind of take on. Yeah I think I mean I'm interested in exploring all aspects of contemporary womanhood anything

that causes a shame anything that makes me uncomfortable or confused or to feel some sort of way

“that's what I move towards certainly roles that scare me and this one did. I have so much respect”

for how much you port into your roles and obviously even here you say like I wanted to find something that was as intense for me and like brought it to life like Fiona because that it those are huge shoes to fill everyone like thinks of that role and like oh my god it was so iconic and so the fact that you have such a passion for this show coming out I know it's like how exciting as yes and actress but also on the back and being behind the camera and bringing this to life

I'm so happy for you. Thank you. It's really cool. I literally was just like a sponge wanting to talk to you about everything and I know we went all over the place today but that was

cherry pick every little bit. Thank you too very much. Thank you for it sitting with me and just having some girl chat. Thank you so much. I appreciate it very much.