Esther Perel: Cheating, Codependency, & Connection

"A stare pearl welcome back to call her Daddy." "It's a treat for me to be back. No time! I know, I'm so happy. This is the first time that we've met in person." "That's when it feels right. I remember during the pandemic, I felt like you were my safe place. I was like, "I need you. We all need you. Talk to me."

And we had such an amazing, we've had such amazing conversations.

And today, I'm just ready to get back into it. For anyone who lives under Iraq, you are a renowned psychotherapist and a relationship expert. You're also one of the best couples therapist out there. You focus on modern relationships, intimacy, and fidelity.

“And I think a lot of the things that you practice and focus on is going to be very relatable to my audience today.”

So should we just get into it? "We should begin." "Okay." "The butt guest." "Where should we begin?"

"I think a lot of women are really, really discouraged by the current state of dating."

"What do you think is just behind that?" "There's a lot of things behind what's happening to dating." "Dating is the symptom, but maybe one way of asking is what's going on in the world of relationships." "Okay." "That is making dating more complicated."

"The world of dating itself, romantic consumerism is really challenging." "When you are constantly looking for the perfect and afraid to settle for the good." "When you are dealing continuously with the paradox of choice with so many options." "And looking for a soulmate on an app." "And with the tremendous case of FOMO, when the eq factor is so omnipresent and very, very quick to kick in."

"When we need more social skills than we ever needed before because we are living in such a contactless reality." "And we actually don't have the skills to speak to people to look at them." "What is one of the first things we just did when we saw each other is touch." "You know, we have been so disembodied so we looked at each other, we smiled to each other, we touched each other and we kind of really grounded ourselves in each other's presence so that we can have a conversation rather than trying to look for a grittnik perfection."

“"I completely agree with everything you just said, but specifically I think what is very applicable to my audience is like we're looking for the perfect."”

"Yes." And we're so hyper-fixated on because there's such an enormity of options out there because back in the day our parents never had the access we have.

They didn't know that there was a guy named Mike in LA who had a six pack that they can stalk. Like it was just the people that were in their proximity. And I would love if you could expand a little bit more on being inundated with relationship content online and through pop culture. How has that warped our idea of love and dating and what it's supposed to look like?" So the first thing is where does the perfection come from?

Right? Many different sources, but one that comes up immediately is when you look at your phone, it will tell you from up to up. Where to go, what to listen to, where to eat, what to watch next, what to listen for next, and it gives it to you without any ambiguity. It gives it to you with utter predictability and perfection. And all those technologies that we are having in the palm of our hand are promising to be unburdenous of all the inconveniences of life. And this is in major part what is warping expectations between people.

Because now I want my people that I meet to be just as predictable and just as perfect and just as unquestionable and just as certain as the responses that I get in the palm of my hand for every second question I have. What happens between people is filled with uncertainty. It's experimentation, it's the unexpected, it's the unknown, it's the surprise, it's the curiosity.

“That's what drives relationships with people in the beginning, and none of that is being trained when all I need to do is click on something.”

And God forbid, I would get lost and discover a whole new landscape that I didn't even know existed, a building I had never noticed, serendipity, spontaneity, happenstance, those things producing anxiety rather than awe and surprise at this moment. Right, it's like people are not as predictable as these apps are, and that is becoming somehow a negative in our eyes. It should just be black and white, but really that used to be what was so divine about.

It smells, the bumps, the caretaking, the less shiny aspects of intimacy, I eat not the six pack, right? Not the six pack, not the six pack. What do you do when you're dealing with the messiness of human life and you've become accustomed to always on delivery of your everyday life, you know, perfect pitch.

That is before the advice, that's even before we've come to the advice.

Right, can we also focus on, I love how you said like the feeling of these people are going out there and then there's this anxiety. But I think something so beautiful about first dates and first experiences or second dates or third dates is sometimes the butterflies we feel when we meet someone and there's the unknown and again the unpredictability that shouldn't scare us, it should excite you to some degree. Or the knowledge that when you meet someone, excitement and insecurity go hand in hand, of course you're anxious, of course you're wondering, of course you aren't sure, of concerto epidacious and you're excited and you're expected.

It's all of this in a fantastic soup, it's not a problem, it is what happens when you have the mystery meeting the longing, meeting the desire,

“meeting the uncertainty and meeting possibility, right?”

How can someone tell the difference though between anxious butterflies and then when it's actually a warning sign that maybe something is off? But butterflies are often mixed with anxiety, that's the thing, it's part of the soup, you can't have butterflies that are just because the minute you start to be drawn to someone.

Let's explain why butterflies involve anxiety because the minute you begin to be drawn to someone, the minute you start to experience any any inklings of attraction or love, you also experience.

A fear of rejection, a sense of insecurity, a question about how much it is shared and mutual and reciprocal and a fear of loss. They go together, you can't experience any love without also experiencing the fear of losing the love.

“So I think that the idea that you can have it clean without any anxiety is really taking us down the wrong direction.”

Yeah, it's like if anything, there's something really beautiful about it because it means that there are stakes involved and you could get rejected and that's okay. If you're putting yourself out there, again, going back to your Spotify playlist, recommends the exact songs that you also will like because you listen to this song and then you go on your app and it tells you the exact genes that you should buy because you bought these last year. And it's like the unpredictability is actually something that we should lean into because there is so much unknown and there's things to explore about yourself and that person.

But when we are so focused on figuring them out, it kind of completely denies the ability to grow and to grow into the relationship if we're just looking for the answer on day one.

“If you want to take out all the wrinkles from the start you're in trouble wrinkles are part of experience and you know if it basically taking out the wrinkles from the start is like taking out the experience.”

When do I know that the butterflies are the sign that something is opening up and happening versus a sign that there's something that may be troublesome. The only way you know is context and context means that you look for other signs is it all the time is it in writing can you have a conversation in person. Can you act it's not just you put yourself out there is that of course you come with your vulnerability it's part of you if you're not vulnerable you're probably not interested enough. Just let's put that a vulnerability is a sign that I care that something important is happening here I'm interested and now I'm not sure are you interested too.

Are you interested as much as me did you think about me as much as I told about you you know I instead of wondering how many worlds should I send before I show myself to be too needy and too dependent no. You know if you put it out and the other person answers in kind you know that something is happening between us right and if they don't it's okay like you will find someone else. Let's say someone finally is like all right Esther I am going to approach dating now I'm going to be less stressed I'm going to allow myself to just move past that fear of the unpredictable and I'm going to lean in.

Every time I'm talking I think about the list the checklist the boxes this is I always think do you put as much emphasis on who you want to be than who you want to find.

I mean it's like what is this this is the consumerism I come with my checklist I sit in front of you in a noisy bar and I'm going to ask my questions and see if you check my boxes. That is such an awful experience and if you think that in the middle of that you're going to get goosebumps or some butterflies in your belly you're off the chart. Seriously it's so true it's also like who do you want to be how do you show up who what do you want it's like so product you know I'm buying I'm coming to check if you you fit the product.

We're like I want to get a product review like are you five stars that's way like actually so humbling and I know I was you say I'm married and I even was like because I used to do that and I think it's so honest what you're saying is like we all look with it in word. Half the time we have expectations for people that we don't even meet ourselves like some of the things I'm are you who you want to be I mean you want to present me this this is the who do you want to be right what do you bring what do you want to offer what do you want to share who do you want them to think that they are in the presence of rather than this one sided you know.

“This is that's you know but the the piece that would help a lot with that Alex is that there and I think that that's one of the most off things on the dating scene is that the dating takes place in a completely secluded place away from your life.”

The dating takes place either virtually maybe at some point you'll finally get to meet somebody and in flesh and and basically.

At some point if you think something is really happening here you'll have the big reveal and you'll bring this person to your life to your friends to you know to to present them instead of bringing the person in your life I'm going to. Whatever I'm going to hide tomorrow I'm going to look for antiques tomorrow I'm going to buy tomorrow do you want to join are you into this stuff I'm going to the movies I'm going with some friends join us. That is lower the stakes lower the stakes as there that is such a brilliant and yet somehow simple concept that I don't know why we're not because I tell you what I'm told but that is so vulnerable but you friends may judge you me friends may not like me.

But you friends are the people who know you the most they will see they will tell you looks good or they will tell you no not not really you know and then you decide what you want anyway.

“But bring the person in your life if it doesn't work my life didn't miss anything.”

Otherwise what happens is three times a week I'm out there dating away from the people that I really care about and with whom I actually enjoy myself. Right and then I come back empty hand at sometimes and I have to report of my bad dates.

I stare we're done with first dates being alone.

I'm not as you're talking I love it because you know it just made me think of something I remember when I was dating. I had so much success when I would be at a bar or at an event with my friends and if I met a guy there. And he was with my friends and I ended up like we'd had the best night and then we'd go on a one-on-one date originally. But it weirdly let all of my kind of my guard like was down and we was wrong. And it was so the stakes were so low because I was like I'm with my girls if you blend in and then I would watch him and our friends.

“And that's right at that point so many date points guys I think that as Sarah Prell dissolved we can send it right here.”

We are no longer going on first dates that are just solo at a table awkwardly like bring them when you are going out with your girls for drinks or bring them on the hike that you and your friends are going on. Like my friends and I are doing this want to meet up with us how I bring some of your friends. That's right I was going to go do this you can even do it alone I was going to go do this would you like to join me. Meet around an activity that is part of your life where you have a certain confidence already.

And you can share something you bring you know and then you will see you may you know you'll come out of the movies the theater the whatever the show. And you say oh I have nothing left to say and then you say it was nice and then you still enjoy the show. Or you actually see you want to continue talking show we go have a drink show we go have a bite and it's it's in context and all those questions about when do you know will become very very different if you have a context.

So being like okay I remember I wanted to see if he does this in your alone on your date and you're trying to hit your checklist like that is where do you live where did you go to school. Did you grow up what do you do like are you applying to be my assistant or job interview.

Okay it's a job it's not that it's not a beginning of a story I mean you know relationships has stories a first date is the first page of a story and it will either be a short story or novel.

Interesting because let's say and I know everyone is obviously different and every circumstance is unique but let's say as dare someone is like okay I am in the dating world.

“I'm taking all of your notes so far but could you help me in what traits are actually important to care about in a future partner like what should someone really be actually focusing on if they're looking for a long term person in their life.”

I wish I could give you a blanket answer but it really depends on you you know relationships thrive in complementary. I am a person who is very solid says one I structure my life I'm reliable but sometimes I wish I was a little bit more flowy I wish I was more spontaneous I wish I didn't overthink things and I welcome someone in my life that actually is more fluid is more spontaneous.

I know it is more spontaneous is less you know rigid like that and vice versa that's a complementary that's very common.

If I can give you basic sets of human traits yes find someone who is decent number one number one decency find someone who is kind who enjoys giving. Who likes to think about others and isn't just constantly making sure that they are the bigger piece on their plate find someone who for some of us it's someone who can. We choice who really can wake up in a good mood because that's something that doesn't always happen to me find someone who if it matters to you has a sense of family find someone who has a sense of religion if it matters to you find someone who loves to travel if it matters to you.

Find someone who can tolerate difference but ask yourself also can you tolerate difference right I'm looking forward look inward don't just you know expect because even that question can become a list too.

I agree with you it's almost like you can't tell people exactly what to look for because I agree it needs to compliment you is there anything.

The quality wise that you actually think we should start to devalue though as a society that people are looking too much for and that's not what we should be focused on.

“Yeah I think that so much of our pressures at this point are about focusing on the self.”

And on the optimization of the self and on the self hacking and on the self fulfillment and the self worth and the self awareness and the self self self. And then even when you ask what should I look for in a partner it's what can this partner bring to me rather than what are each other's needs that we can. Let's give it together it's very different to say a we versus a you who is going to help me become more of myself and make me become the best version of myself you know you live in a big world there's a lot of things to think about besides just me.

Talk about. Friction yeah because I know that you are passionate about needing to invite a little bit of friction into our dating lives. What is the benefit of doing that and can you explain what that even means when I said to you before that our technologies are predictive technologies are trying to remove all the inconveniences. What they're trying to do is present you with a very polished life where there is no friction no obstacles.

“Nothing that you have to work through which traditionally has always been seen as that which gives you a sense of resilience that which.”

It gives you experience that which is necessary for child development it's true for little kids as well they need friction they need to resolve problems they need to figure it out they need to make mistakes and correct it so do we. The first is that I'm a sex therapist as well and we have a there's a beautiful formula of Jack more in a major sexologist who that says attraction plus obstacle equals excitement or desire obstacle is friction.

When I was going to say I think it's important to clarify like what is the difference between good friction and bad friction because I don't want any girls going like.

Oh wow we need to fight we need to fight to feel the thrill out there no no no no no I'm not talking about toxicity I'm talking about friction talking about this that creates heat. It's really that it's the ability to tolerate difference it's the idea that other people will have very different versions of what just happened and they're sitting right side by side with you it's tolerance for conflict it's rupture and repair. The reason is all the paradoxes or the contradictions that we feel in relationships attraction and disgust.

Care and aggression rupture and repair trust and betrayal.

These polarities are intrinsic they are part and parcel of every relationship they come and go they've moved you know the moments when you are deeply trusting in moments where you are suspicious. The moment's where you think I can't take another minute of this and then the next minute you think I can't take another day without it.

“It makes me think a little bit and I think we all have those people in our life where you kind of hear that friend be like oh my partner and I never fight we never even get in little arguments like what is your take on that.”

The problem the horizon. Or only doing that which we both like we only see the movies the two of us like we only go to the bands the two of us like we create sameness at all costs you know at some point it starts to feel like in order not to lose you I ended up losing major chunks of me.

Every relationship are you asked me before you know what are the things we're to look for and I will answer it a little differently.

“I think that one of the most important tensions for all relationships every dating story we'll have this is how do I connect to you without losing me.”

And now do I stay connected to me without losing you. In every relationship you will find that there is one person that is often more in touch with the fear of losing the other and one person more in touch with the fear of losing themselves. One person more in touch with the fear of abandonment and one person more in touch with the fear of suffocation and they often meet you can give me any list you want this is not what you look at when you are a couple therapies is what drew you together has very little to do it we like the same band and we like hiking the same mountains and we both like skiing and outdoors and none of it or we are foodies that is not what is really being played out in terms of the relationship dynamic.

So when you never fight you are trying to basically smooth out the wrinkles the differences the tensions the autonomy because this is how you negotiate separateness and togetherness this is probably the most important task of any relationship. What should you be trying what what am I looking for you looking for someone with whom you can and depends if you are capable to negotiate what is together and what is autonomous what where are we separate your friends your activities your interest your careers your family and what is ours what is the we and what is the me.

“That's what happens in relationships you can have the most common tastes with your partner if these things don't work.”

That's where you will have trouble you know it's interesting because follow me not only do I follow you. I'm already in my head being like that needs to be clipped and every human being meets watch that clip because what the fuck no no like it's so real when you're talking about how. I'm just like one is more afraid of being abandoned and one is more afraid of losing the sense of self like. If everyone just pauses you I know who I am in the relationship with my husband and not dynamic and like I'm sure.

You need to go through some friction because you need to see how you to argue and I'm not saying arguing is healthy but like at some point human beings cannot just go through life and just have no issues that's just not how life goes.

If you're not compatible in the way that you handle conflict and I think a lot of people can be like oh we're getting married we haven't had one issue.

Do you think it's concerning if people have never had one problem and already like we're getting married we've never fought a day in our life.

“It's just a matter of time at some point they will they will but here's the thing.”

The research is very clear on this Alex it's really not so much the conflict itself as the repair. There are couples that are way more volatile they bigger more they argue more it's faster it escalates.

It's really can they make up and how do they make up and they make up just by kind of smoothing it over or they make up and they actually are able to acknowledge what they contributed to the argument.

The repair is more important than the actual conflict and when you get to repair how important is compatibility than in communication styles. What matters the most is not compatibility in communication styles but accountability. It's the ability to say I was threatened and I just last out on you. I just said things that I wish I didn't say but when I'm scared or when I fight I sometimes don't know where to stop.

“I take full responsibility for this. I realize that when I said that I was not paying attention to what you had said before to you need to what you had asked for me to how I let you down.”

It's the ability to take responsibility without shame and do you suggest or again doesn't matter should repair happen in the moment or can we great question. So some people can do it in the moment other people need 20 minutes to hours or two days. So if you are with someone who needs to this don't start talking in the moment they're totally dysregulated they can't listen they're not yet there wait. But this is what happens is that you have one person who needs to make sure that we don't go to bed outside and the other one who just doesn't don't give me one more word or I'm going to explode.

So this is where one needs to learn to engage sooner and one needs to learn to wait longer. Yeah, that's something that I've always found interesting in the dance of relationship by the way and also there has to be a level of respect right because I remember my husband I in the beginning days he would want to handle it immediately and I would be like I need a second. And then we would we would both be like wait like and then it would only only need to find our common ground of like okay I can't go into a hole for three days and ignore you so I'm in it we need to find our middle ground of where we both can respect each other that you need some reprieve right now you can't just be waiting for three days and also I don't can't have this conversation in 20 minutes so where can you meet in the middle again that just takes accountability right.

It's accountability and it's acknowledgement of the differences. I mean it's you're needing the three days is not because of me.

You need three days is because of who you are and how you've learned to come down and whatever history you come with and the most important piece about it is not to personalize it.

Then I can say look after a day because I'm not sure that you like the three days maybe you actually would love it if it was just half a day, but you don't know how to do it. You know you wait you wait till all the nervous system kind of sets back in you've gone three times to do sports whatever you need it to do to kind of you know get yourself back to ground zero. I could help you actually that's the thing I may actually be able to tell you hey you're not going to lose face and you don't have to feel like you're giving in and giving up if you talk to me in two days before and I'm not going to attack you can we sit and just look at what happened here.

So I'll help you with the three days it's not just the middle because it's nice to meet in the middle ground it's that I have something you don't have. Right because I'm not arguing or fighting with myself like there's another person that has the keys to the answers of why they acted that way and why I acted that way.

“Yeah, to need three days I think that something that would be very useful for all your listeners is the typical thing is to say what you fight about.”

Rather than what is it that you're fighting for. And when you look at what people fight for. Mark Howard Markman summarized it really beautifully is a researcher on couples and he said people fight about a few major things the first one is Peter people fight for power and control. Who's decisions matter most who's needs get priority who gets to decide. Much of our fighting is actually about power and control it doesn't matter if it looks like it's about money or the kids or the parents or my activities or your friends.

And we don't say I fight about trust we fight about you didn't call me and you didn't tell me we're going to be late and you didn't tell me that you had visited these people and you didn't share that with me and and I didn't know you tell.

“If you don't share that with me and I don't share that with you and I don't share that with you.”

To join you we can talk about how I wasn't included but the issue is I didn't feel valued I don't feel like I'm important in your life. So power and control care and closeness and respect and recognition power trust and value that's what most fights are about.

If you get away from all the what you will actually understand why why people get so upset it's so.

Does that mean I'm so happy you're here. I'm going to say that a million times say it's so real because I can already see it. I'm sure everyone else can that's watching it's like you're you're venting to your friend and it's like. I'm waiting for him to text me and I'm I'm driving me insane because then I found out he ended up going to the dinner and he never even invited me and I just don't I like I don't even understand I'm just so over and I'm done and I like actually fucking hate him and I'm over it.

And what you're saying is like okay slow down for a second because this is someone you love and get underneath like what is it that's actually upsetting you and that probably would fall.

I don't want to assume into the category the last one right totally where you're just like you're looking for the recognition and you want to be respected and seen and a part of their life. You want to feel like you mean something to someone and when you went alone and you didn't tell me or you didn't invite me didn't include me I'm like you know mashed potatoes.

“I don't feel valued and I think what you had said earlier even in the dating that really applies to this is what's so hard in conflict resolution between couples is.”

So much almost a lot of time in no matter what argument it is also starts in power in terms of like I don't want to admit I was wrong here or whatever but it also is power in terms of like it requires you to actually get vulnerable.

It's almost beautiful power one of them there's so many but I have often said to people in sessions.

I'm trying to think about an episode on the podcast that people could go listen to that kind of instant he speaks to that where I say the person who apologizes first is often the person who has the most power. I don't know of that. I understand. Roll that again because we feel the weakest right exactly and especially those for whom this feels weakening to admit to acknowledge to take responsibility to say I made a mistake or I was wrong or I went too far while they have the most power because if I say that to you it is more likely that you will say.

“Hey, thank you. Be I appreciate this. Three you feel seen for you realize that we're both in this together and and five it's not so bad I can get over it.”

Because my admission is all you need it. I don't need to you know stretch myself on the floor. It's not I'm shame myself and make my is I'm just simply saying to you. It's this it's that gesture with my head. I know I see I own it. I take my responsibility and then usually what do you do you say well I wasn't that my best either right that no meet you there. You meet me there that's power that's power to rather than power over I was going to say because there's such a difference between I was going to be like okay power sounds negative right power sounds like you have something over people because I remember growing up my mom would

always say like the person who cares the least in the relationship is all the power and it pisses people off when you say that they're like that's not true and is like no no the person who cares the least has all of the power they don't give a fuck so you're constantly trying to get their attention and get them to caring get them and you're the one that's aggressive towards and the other person can just sit back and be like I'm fucking chilling that's talk right making such a big deal. You know what's what's the big deal can't you just you know and that's toxic power that's using power in a way that's not fair in the relationship.

Why is it toxic because your. What is the tone when you say what you just said I think it's it's a.

What what stands out when you say what's the big deal.

“Why need to do always over bloating so you always have to make such a big drama you know just you know that just chill just relax just keep it in perspective just just”

Meaning what's wrong with you and what's wrong with you says I have content which is really the number one killer actually. When is it betrayal to go and share too much with friends or family about issues you're having in your relationship.

Every biography is a betrayal of someone else.

You cannot tell your story without telling things about people who are in your story who didn't ask to be spoken about. That's it by definition I mean this is the era where more people have written biographies than ever before. Every person has a biography to write so a biography tells my story in the context of many relationships with others who didn't ask for the story to be told.

Every biography is a betrayal a small one but it's a bias.

Okay wait but as there it doesn't it helps you some degree process when you get to I didn't mean to say therefore you shouldn't tell. More than one in this instance man in heteroreal relationship tell me you know if I knew. It's it's about how much my partner my girlfriend my wife whatever my girlfriend tells her girlfriends about us. Betrayal would be redefined.

“I think that there is often a sense among women girls that it's not a betrayal because I'm talking to my best friend.”

Whereas for many people many men who are much less likely to share that much about their girlfriends to their male friends. If they were to discover all what she is able to put out their betrayal would be redefined and I think that there is something to think about that. Now when you talk to your girlfriends the question is this are you ever actually saying what you have done as well or are you only talking about what he or she or they did to you. And that's where the girlfriends can come in and say look everything starts with the name of the other person.

Alex did this and Alex said that and Alex didn't and you know what Alex and what Alex again. Alex Alex Alex Alex at some point you want to see and where is the stare in the story. And if you say he's not mentioned and what did you do you know when I see a couple and I see one person telling me a story and then when the other one arrives it's like everything this one left out is what this one starts with. But how though then as dare do you protect the privacy of your relationship without fully isolating yourself from your friends and your family.

You it's in the tone it's in the way you of course you come to your friends I'm struggling with something I don't know what to do and good friends sometimes give advice and sometimes really make space and listen and just say you will figure this out I'm here for you if you need to.

“Sometimes I need to tell you this is what I think is happening now you need to talk to her you need to tell her what's happening with you you know you're dealing with loss you're dealing with illness you're dealing with children you're dealing with.”

No work you're dealing with loss of your best friends whatever you need to be able to talk but talking is not the same as dishing right and also starting more with eye statements rather than the constant and then he did this and then play this blame blame blame and I'm the victim of the other persons doing that is not always the case interesting. I do find that like emotional depth and intelligence I think sometimes a lot of women write in just feeling like I really like him in the beginning it's been fun but like.

I'm starting to wonder if he's emotionally intelligent enough and can go deep with me enough and I'm starting to go to my friends and family when I'm going through hard things or when I'm looking to have an intellectual conversation because he can't meet me there like. How do you gauge if your partner is emotionally intelligent enough to match where you're also at in your life because that's a very elusive heart by going outside of your own definition you're the what you think is emotionally.

We have many vocabularies words is one and we are girls are often more trained to be in verbal vocabulary. We talk you know partly because we've been taught to distrust our bodies so we became masters of talking intimacy.

But intimacy can be experienced in a lot of different ways that don't involve the only words and by the way we talk with our bodies for 18 months before we utter the first word.

So our mother tongue is often physical. Emotional intelligence and intellectual compatibility is different things, you know. If you if it's very very important for you to be with someone with whom you can have these meaty conversations know that up front. Know that up front.

If you say discussing what how I should handle my mother is not something that I do talk about with my boyfriend because I don't think that that his advice then go to your girlfriends.

Do not think that one person can give you what an entire village should provide.

“Your girlfriend is wanting a boyfriend. A girlfriend if your girl is wanting a girlfriend. We need a community. You need to diversify better relationships stronger relationships are often diversified.”

You know exactly when I have this kind of issue or this kind of interest that's not where I go. I have my friends with whom I share those things and I have my friends with whom I talk about those things that is not what I do with my partner and that is okay. Okay. Let's talk about cheating. We're back, girl. Let's get into cheating. Everyone's also favorite topic. That's right. When there is infidelity, I think as a recent and because this didn't obviously use to be it like, you know, in previous generations.

But there is an expectation now it feels that the relationship has to end if there is infidelity, especially when the woman is cheated on.

“There's a lot of shame from other women being like, you have to leave. You don't respect yourself. Get the fuck out of that relationship.”

Why do you think there is so much shame on a person staying and should there be that level of shame?

I love the question because it is probably one of the most important changes that took place between you grandmother and you.

You know, when marriage was one stop enterprise from which you could not get out, then you had no choice but staying. Everything changed with divorce, with the democratization of divorce, with no full divorce and with women being in the workforce so that they can actually take care of themselves and not worry about the institution and the loss of their children.

“And now that you can leave, you should go. If you stay, it becomes a sign of no self-esteem, no self-confidence, weakness, the opposite of what it used to be.”

The fact that you actually can forgive or can rebuild or that not every infidelity is actually a sign that your relationship is over and that staying and reconnecting and rebuilding the trust is actually a sign of strength rather than weakness has really become a challenge. Younger you go, the more this takes place, this is the belief system of the moment. And why do you think, although I feel like this is a very obvious question, I just have to ask you because I want to know why do you think women disproportionately bear the shame of staying.

There are men who stay after getting cheated on, you know? Yes, that is very cultural. When I work in Mexico or anywhere south of the border, that is not the case, you only know it more from the women. When a woman stays and it's quiet about it, you may be sure that the silence of the man is even bigger. What kind of a man are you, that you would stay? The woman, nobody says what kind of a woman are you, we just say what kind of a low self esteem woman are you, but we don't challenge the whole constitutional element called woman. We just think about her strength of character. With him, we say what kind of a man are you, that you let your wife, you can control your wife, do those things and you still choose to be with her, you're not a real man.

So it's misleading to think that this is the pressure is more on women, the pressure is more overtly on women, but that pressure is usually even bigger on men.

Because I know you meet with couples and you do help repair relationship. So I spent 10 years studying in fidelity, wrote a set of affairs about it, and began to really, I have a list of 150 questions, really, that wasn't just one, but I think the most important set of questions come from this distinction, try not to go for the facts. Where were you, when did you do it, how often did you do it, did you do it standing, did you do it lying, did you keep your clothes on, did you bring them to the house, did you go for the meaning, what did it mean for you, why do you think you did this?

And what were you thinking about us as this was happening? And do you want me to forgive you or do you think I actually would be more respected by you if I didn't forgive you? Do you think you are forgivable? Would you have accepted something like that from me? Go for the investigative questions rather than the detective questions. For the meaning, not the fact, because it's in the meaning that you will also understand, did it have anything to do with you or with your relationship, or did it have absolutely nothing to do with you, which is hard to believe, but is actually a lot of the time the case.

Is nothing to do with you? Is to do with the fact that I felt lousy about myself that I felt lonely, that I didn't really feel like you were giving me enough attention or that I thought, you know, suddenly somebody is laughing at my jokes again and you know. But is that then inadvertently kind of about the other person like, what drives someone to cheat? Let me tell you in one sentence that, that to me became a real sometimes, people go to look for the gaze of another, not because they're looking for another partner, but they're looking for another self.

Now that they want to leave the person that they are with, but they want to leave the person that they have themselves become.

Oh, shit. What they're dealing with is their depression, is their loss, is their grief, is their aging, is there? Whatever issues inside is the way that they lost themselves into, you know,

“they forgot who they are and all of that and that's what they are reclaiming and their senses that they can't reclaim it in the same place where they lost it, but it's not the other person's fault that they lost any of it.”

And also so hard though, because you're like, yes, it may not be about you, but it impacts you obviously so deeply and it's almost, I wonder for people have you found when you're in these moments and you're talking to these couples, is it more infuriating for the partner that got cheated on to be like, I didn't do, this is all about you. I couldn't, like it wasn't even because I wasn't having enough sex with you. There's something I can change and you just were going to do this no matter what.

I think the most important piece that you're saying here is that everything about infidelity in a relationship is a dual perspective, what it meant to you and what it did to me.

So the first thing in phase one is I need you to know what it did to me. You don't go instantly for what it meant, but it did to me, how you hurt me, how you deceived me, how you lied to me, how you betrayed me, how you had duplicitous all of that, and do you feel bad about that, do you experience guilt or remorse?

“If I don't get that, there's nowhere to start. Even if you had good reasons for doing what you did, you need to be able to know what it meant, what you did to me with it.”

Especially if it has nothing to do with me. Even more so. Do you find when you've done couples therapy that the person who cheated is usually capable of meeting the partner there? If they don't, then you have a bad, that's a bad sign. If they don't, and if they only justify and they, you know, but those are also people who typically will say it's because of you. You're like there's patterns here. You know, that kind of goes together. So generally, I give you an out because I'm telling you, even if you had good reasons.

“And you don't feel guilty about what you did. You need to be able to feel guilty for what it did to you partner.”

I have empathy and take responsibility. It's both. It's always the empathy and the accountability. It's two parts. And then, what are you doing to give value back to your relationship?

You now have to prove to your partner because a betrayal is a devaluation of the other person. I didn't think of you. I didn't care about what it would do to you.

And that one of the main ways you do it is that instead of waiting for me to ask you another question, did you? Did you come to this restaurant?

Did you take her here? Did you go there? You are the one who say, when we pass in front of the restaurant, we drive there and you say, we didn't come here. And you preempt me because what you think is that all my questions is because I want to make you live difficult. That's not the case. I question you a hundred times the same question because what you did has just shattered my reality. And I don't trust myself anymore because I thought I knew my reality and now I think that everything I thought was real was actually possibly not.

“So I come back to ask you the same thing because I need to kind of reconstitute my reality. Yeah, that's what I'm doing. It's like must be so hard to because I could see the person that she did wants to move forward.”

But the other person is like, I need you to know I'm actually if I'm deciding to move forward. I'm not actually trying to hold you against the fire forever of being like, did you come to this restaurant? But I would love it. You could meet me there and trying to just fill in the gaps for me. So I don't have all these questions mark. If you think of it at that moment and you tell me then I learn to trust you again. That's actually where the trust gets rebuilt because now I'm not thinking that I'm the only one who cares about what happened.

And the only one who's hurt and the only one who thinks that we've just taken a big hit in our relationship. I know you're in it with me and that allows me to then think about something else, even as uncomfortable as the brutal honesty can be from the person who cheated that is the beginning of repair. Sometimes, but sometimes before you ask a question and this I'm going to say to all our viewers here ask yourself, do you want to know the answer to your question? Or do you want your partner to know that you have the question?

Give me an example.

Did you fall in love with her? Did you think about leaving me? Did you hope I would never find out?

We, what if we do want to know what's the question? They're like, did he?

“Well, that's the thing. Do you want to know the answer to your question because then you have to deal with the consequences of knowing?”

I think I would want to know if someone had fallen in love. If my husband cheated on me and I think I would need to like, are you in love with her? Because then we have to be done, right? Go be with her. That's you.

Right. That people don't want to know. But another person in very different set of circumstances, I would ask, yes, I would need that fair enough.

Because that for me would just be like, but you just answered me, I need to know because I'm prepared to deal with the consequences of knowing. I see and some people would be like, I don't want to know because no matter the answer, I'm willing to work through this. I just did an episode on my podcast, a 25-year affair. He had 25 years. So that's not necessarily for our viewers here, but it is maybe your parents. Oh, sure. And she is clear that she doesn't want to leave.

Because she's also very clear that they actually had a very good marriage throughout those 25 years. And that is true too. And things are not so black and white. And it is not my job to tell this person or any friends job to tell this person and talk about the shame. Because 25 years, she doesn't want the family to know because she doesn't want them to pity her for staying with him. And she doesn't want them to be angry at him because then she can't love him if they're all despising him. So she's now caring, the secret about the secret. Right. And the shame. That's so.

And we don't have, we can't be so judgmental about that. No, we can't. It's like, I've had people on the show before that I've come on and talked about staying after cheating. And the way the internet has just turned these women apart. And it's like, but it's their life. And everyone's like, well, you don't respect yourself. And it's like,

“but do you know that? Do you really, you don't know that?”

This person may have done so much work within that relationship to repair it. Like, why are you so triggered? It's her life. Look, everything on which we begin was to say to people, we don't really know what's happening in the private lives of other couples. And it's very easy these days because you can anonymously state your opinions on every platform you want without any consequence. Is there a timeline in terms as a couple of therapists that you're like repair should fall within a little bit of this timeline?

If not, like, we, you can't keep going back and forth of like you cheated. I need these answers. And we're five years down the line or can it just be forever?

Yeah, no, I think that sometimes if you can't accept it, if you can't learn to live with it, if you can't find a place for it in your life,

then you may need to make a decision, or if you live with someone and you've done all the repair and all the showing up that was necessary.

“And your partner is still coming back to you every day, every time you five minutes late, you may need to think about that. What do you want to do?”

No, I don't think people need to remain stuck in misery, you know, and in blame cycles all the time, but at the same time, for some people, they still prefer that.

And you make sense of it, you understand why they prefer that, you understand the stories and the childhoods they've had, et cetera. It's very important for us not to become the public square that us as if we know when we don't, we don't know if people are also taking care of elderly or sick children. Or there are other reasons, I love that too, just even to close out on that cheating chapter for anyone listening, like, we all have those people in our life that, whether it's your sister or your friend or whoever that stays, there is understandably a anger within you as someone who loves them because you are protective of them.

And you think I want better for them, but again, we all know the extreme level of intricate detail that goes into why we are who we are that no one will ever understand, even if you explain so many times, like you're living in your own body with your own trauma and your own history.

“And so as much as you say you want better for them, if they genuinely are saying to you, this is what they want, at some capacity, you have to also relinquish control of trying to dictate other people's lives because what does it affect you?”

So there are two parts of what they want that I think are often not spoken up. It's wanting to think you are not trustworthy, but it's another thing to doubt your own self trust, your own self confidence. And the idea that you could have made a bad decision, that you made a bad choice, that the deal, the bargain that you struck with yourself, that you were going to be with somebody who would never do such a thing to you, that you purposefully didn't stay with the person with whom you had much more passion and much more intensity.

You chose someone who was safe and stable and stable and you thought that person will never cheat on me, my ex did that, and then this person does it, and then you have to deal with your own reckoning. So that's one. The second one is that sometimes you stay, not because you weak and because you let the other person roll all over you, but because you're actually silently admitting to yourself that you know that you contributed in some way too. I mean, the loneliness is one of the most important reasons why people see connection elsewhere.

Let's talk about intimacy. What do you do? Because I truly believe this is one of the biggest, most prominent issues in every single relationship, not every single, but a majority is like when you and your partner have different ideas of intimacy, of how much you want it, of how often like physical intimacy,

“touch, affection, or touch, affection, sex, like what do you do when you're on different pages in a relationship with that?”

I think that the interesting thing is that people seem to be talking about sex with everybody, but the least is with the person they're actually having sex with. And in the beginning, you don't want to talk about it because you don't want to talk about it, and then you don't want to talk about it because you don't want to jinx it. And then you don't want to talk about it because you didn't talk about it before. And then you only talk about it when there is crisis. For a lot of people in by the way, connecting it to the previous question, in fidelity becomes the moment where people start to talk about a lot of things that they put under the rug for a long time.

And finally, the shit hits the fence, so now we start to discuss all our grievances, our resentments, our longings, our disappointments, our unfulfilled needs, etc., etc.

No, maybe it wouldn't have gotten there.

And monogamy and all of those issues, it's like, you know, and more so in straight couples, actually.

“And especially around monogamy and questions like that and exclusion and boundaries and all of that. So then there is what do we talk about?”

What is candidate communication, you know, around physicality? It's even I touch you, do you like it? I saw just so you twitch, you know, do you want me to continue? Shall I stop instead of guessing? They seem to like it, they don't seem to like it, I don't know. You know, I do, they don't respond, is it because of me, is it because they're tired, is it because, you know, okay, I won't do it anymore. Ask, check in, talk. Sometimes you may get unpleasant answers, just okay.

“So that's the first thing. Then you have discrepancy of desire, you know, what happened there?”

I think that there is a big difference between sex and irroticism between doing the act for which you may do a lot and feel very little. And doing very little for which you may feel a lot, which is the erotic that involves your imagination touch, meaning, but why the experience of it, rather than just the act of it. It's not just sex is not just something you do, it's a place you go, it's where a lot of things happen there. So what happens to you? That's a question, where do you go, why do you hold back? What ignites you, what blocks you?

Is it on your mind, is it not on your mind, is there something that has been unpleasant that you've never talked about?

Does it hurt and you never say anything? In order to want sex, it needs to be sex that is worth wanting. And many times, women, girls wanted less, not because they less interested in it, but because it's not the sex that they want. It's not what they're looking forward to. So how much are you able to express that? Sometimes you do it in writing, sometimes you do it by playing a game, sometimes there are lots of ways that people learn to become more at ease talking about the very topic that they spend their entire childhood learning not to talk about.

“I mean, let's be facing that too. You take a subject on which that is constantly being hidden, and suddenly you need to be able to be all eloquent about. So that's not so easy, it's difficult.”

These all of our minds like I understand that it is sometimes really hard and awkward and to talk about it with your partner because sometimes from what I've experienced in the past and what people for it and into me is like, it just feels like if I approach this, it's going to come off like I'm not happy and then it's going to be so awkward the next time we go to have sex because he's just going to be thinking about like, well, you literally just complained that you're not enjoying it and it's like, no, the way that you approach the conversation can dictate so much of how it goes.

You know, I wrote, making in captivity 20 years ago, all about what is desire in relationship, how do we sustain it, then I did the desire bundle, it's a whole course with these kinds of questions and one of the things I understood is one of the main shifts that we as women need to do is instead of saying I don't enjoy it is to say, I wouldn't enjoy it a lot more. I very much like when you do and I would love it if you did more, go with what you ask for.

Women have always learned to say what they don't like when it comes to sex, they have not been necessarily trained to actually speak about their wishes, their needs, their preferences, their likes.

Go to your partner, male female them and say, you know, I like when I would love if it would please me a lot if you could do that. That's a way to not have the other person the next time saying, oh shit, I don't want to approach you because you've just told me that you really don't like that. You know, and now I'm lost my entire sense of confidence, I thought you liked it and what you faked it that I love that so much too because I think it's very relatable for anyone listening where you're in a situation where you become so comfortable with your partner and every aspect of life and then this thing over here that's one of the most important aspects of your relationship you never talk about.

So then it does get awkward because the person that's holding on to not being as fulfilled by it, understandably the other person is like, how long have you been feeling this way, like holy shit. What did I not know? How did I miss it? You know, that's a form of lying to sometimes by the way, that is a betrayal too. You know, six years you haven't said the thing to me, because what are they saying? Or you've been fantasizing about someone else or you've been not liking it and make and pretending to me that sometimes hurts no less than you've been because you've been elsewhere, whether you've been elsewhere alone or you've been elsewhere.

What's talk about codependency? Yeah.

When you're in a serious relationship, understandably your lives become fused together, right? You do so many things together, you're living together most of the time. What are some signs though that you have gotten yourself into a situation that is fully codependent? When you are called, I'm not instantly called. You've got your own body temperature and I can say, oh, that's interesting. I can't say, how can you be called? I'm not called. Why should you be called? I'm the thermometer. When you're hungry, I'm not immediately hungry. When you're tired or when I'm tired, you're not instantly tired.

We have a different system, but somehow when you're upset or when you're sad or when you're anxious or worried, that instantly makes me anxious.

“Because your feelings are my feelings. If you're unhappy, that makes me unhappy. Or I think that you're unhappy because it's me. What did I do? What did I do? What's wrong?”

So, I used the temperature and the hunger and the tiredness because people immediately understand it. When it's physical, they understand where I stop and where you start. We are two separate people. We are close. We are not fused. We are not that enmeshed that what happens to me happens to you. But when it comes to the emotional level, for many of us, that is not how we grow up either. We grow up with somebody who wanted their feelings to become our feelings. There needs to become our needs. And so we have not known where to know where is the line where I stop and you start. That's where it could depend and see lives.

“If someone is sitting here being like, you know what? A stare. There's a chance. There is a really good chance that I am in a codependent relationship.”

I do love my partner and I think we've just fallen into this. It's really not toxic by choice. It just happened. What are some steps that you can take within your relationship to reconnect with yourself and build back your individual identity while still remaining in a relationship?

The first thing you do is what belongs to you and what belongs to them? Don't personalize.

It's a strange thing. But you said before, you know, somehow it's sometimes it's even worse if it has nothing to do with you. It's like, I would rather be part of a bad story than not be part of the story at all. Cast me, please. That's like literally the entire internet. There's like, this isn't my life, this isn't my situation, but I'm in it. And it's like, we want to know. It's like, it's not your story. And you know sometimes what it means because a friend can tell you something and you don't instantly think it's you.

Why do people personalize it though? Because there are only two relationships that really mirror each other. The one you had with your family or your original caretakers, caregivers and the one you have in your romantic intimacy.

“Those two match, people can tell you I don't have this with any of my friends and I believe them. I don't you don't. I'm sure you know to maintain that differentiation is what we call this.”

That they are two people here and when one person feels something the other person can feel for them, but they're not feeling the same thing as them. I stare. I could talk to you for 10 hours. I am so happy that you came today because I needed and I know the daddy gang needed all of this. I think even from the.

They're still the daddy gang girl. I know right. I remember the first time you said it and you were like daddy gang. Listen to me and I was like.

I stare perl just acknowledge the daddy gang. That was all my that was everything and it still is. I am going to go back and listen doesn't like take notes. I have so many thoughts. I have so many episodes. I want to make from this episode. You're so wise and you're so brilliant and you're so warm and generous with your time and I just can't thank you enough for taking your time because I know you're so busy to like sit down with me and give us. And in part all of your wisdom on the daddy gang myself. I care about it and I see people struggling more and more and I also know that there is nothing that matters more in our lives.

You know it's like you have that again. I have the quality of your life is determined by the quality of your relationships and everything else follows from there.

Thank you. Congratulations to all of your success. I love just watching you and the wisdom and all the things that you have given to society truly and like thank you. Thank you for always coming and stopping by and giving me your time. Thank you.