Mayo is Spanish! José Andrés Speaks Out

relationships, and we want to hear your stories. Do you spend all your time scrolling

“through reservation apps while your partner couldn't care less? Or maybe you dump your date”

for being a picky eater? Or maybe one of you loves to eat out and the other doesn't. So to share your story, please leave us a voicemail. The number 617-249-3167-1 more time. 617-249-3167, or send us a voicemail to [email protected]. This is mostly radio from PRX and on your host, Christopher Kimball. Jose Andre's is back. Today he tells us what he really thinks. For example,

if you're the restaurant that has trolls on the dessert menu, please walk out. Choros in a restaurant is not something traditionally you will see.

“That's dawning another moment in another part of the sequence of life.”

In Jose says anything embedded in France was probably Spanish first.

I am Jose Andre's. And I endorse these messages. Jose Andre's takes us to Spain that's coming up later in the show. But first, we're traveling with Trevor Warmendahl. Trevor is a nomadic cheese maker who apprentices in pastoral communities around the world. His adventure started in Mongolia where he spent 11 days in the valley of the Yax.

I had the opportunity to go to Mongolia to manage a small cheese plant outside

“of Urlan Botter, the capital. After spending 10 years making cheese commercially in the US for”

various companies, which resulted in me becoming increasingly fed up with the lack of natural approaches to cheese making. I was seeking to learn kind of what cheese could be without that paradigm. The cheese plant itself, the job, I quickly realized this company was kind of mimicking the

practices I was attempting to move away from, basically making European style cheeses using

commercial starter cultures. And I decided to leave the job and just go travel in the countryside, knowing that there was this vast amount of cultural knowledge around milk fermentation in the raising of livestock. The way it worked out was very serendipitous. I met a Mongolian woman named Burma, whose family herds Yax in the countryside. And while I was staying there every morning, we have to get up and join the family for their morning chores. And like so many people who are

involved in daring, there's a very regular, almost ritualized daily routine that begins before sunrise with the milking of the animals. The boiled milk would be aerated by dropping the milk on itself, like scooping it up and dropping it. And that would be the first food that is consumed. And one of the most delicious ones, it's like a thick cream, like you grab it with your hand to plop it on a dish and we would eat that for breakfast,

like with biscuits. And it was amazing. Then with this partially reduced fat milk,

they would turn that into yogurt and make this range of foods from yogurt that I had never seen

before where they would like boil the yogurt and cook moisture out of it until it was like a thick batter which would be drained and dehydrated in the sun. This was like a traditional folk knowledge that was just being followed and it worked. It worked really well and it created foods that were a product of their place. In the camp where I was staying, there was like the main family and then next door there was a single man and they were kind of like together

managing these herds and one day I had the opportunity to join him as he went out on the daily overseeing of the animals well they're grazing. We were both on horseback and the large herd three or four hundred sheep and goats were kind of grazing close to home and we began pushing them

but it was like just a beautiful and kind of eerie moment. The horses have their

“tack jangling as they grass and the wind is gently blowing and we're just watching this herd of animals.”

When I look back at my experience in Mongolia, I recall the acoustic environment of this camp in the valley of the axe. I hear children laughing. I hear animals being milked. The sound of the milk hitting the the pale. I hear the grunting of the axe. This is like very distinctive sound that they make and it represents to me the integration that is possible between humans and their landscapes. The cheeses in themselves were what kind of captivated

me and what I was driven to focus on but I quickly realized that the cheeses were never being made

in isolation. It's like creating this big, multilayered symphony of interactions and impacts and that this represents what we're capable of. Recalling those sounds takes me back to the optimism and the sense of a new world opening up that I was just stepping into. That was Trevor Warmedahl. He's the author of Cheese Trekking. He also writes the Substack Milk Tracker. Now it's time to answer your cooking questions with my co-host Sarah

Molten. Sarah is of course the star of Sarah's weeknight meals on public television also author of Home Cooking 101. Hello Chris. How are you today? I'm good. Are you ready to take a couple calls? Absolutely. Welcome to Milk Street Who's Calling. Hi my name is Jennifer from Hartford, Connecticut. Hi Jennifer. How can we help you? Thank you so much for taking my call. I have been on a bit of a

carnitas deep dive. A favorite restaurant nearby served this amazing dish of carnitas and they

took it off their menu. I was able to get my hands on the list of ingredients but not at all kind of the process for cooking them. And so I have some questions. I'm hoping you can help me unpack this mystery. I've tried and failed a few times. Okay. In particular, the ingredients mentioned a pork cure with pink curing salt. And so when I tried to research that a little bit, I got intimidated

“because it looks like you have to be kind of careful with curing salt. Is that necessary for the”

flavor? If I left that part out what it impacted but if I did want to use it, is it a rob? Is it a brine? Wow. That is sort of weird, isn't it now? That usually used as a preservative. And why would you need that in something that's essentially a stew? It's pork butt, cut into cubes, cooked with other ingredients till it's tender tender tender and then sort of shredded and then crisped. I have no idea. Tell me what else was in it? Sure. The list of ingredients we got is a pork cure.

Pink curing salt, oregano, bay leaves, oranges, onions, mintecta, sweet and condensed milk, gluten-free beer. If I left this curing salt out, which I'm excited to do, I just, I'm also trying to figure out how those ingredients kind of come together because it's a kind of a motley crew. You're not kidding. It's with the condensed milk and gluten-free beer. That's interesting.

“I think they try and make a lot of their items gluten-free. I did figure out that I believe they're”

using the Medello Negro beer. So you have tried to make this recipe without the pink curing salt. I have and I didn't use the mantucket either, which mine turned out very dry. So I'm wondering if I go back and actually get the mantucket the lard. Obviously, I don't have kind of how much if you try them, so I mean, do you dump the whole can of that in there with the beer in a mantucket? I'm like the mantucket. This sounds to me like someone mixed up two recipes,

blonde, and carnitas. Why would anybody put sweet and condensed milk? I guess there's a reason,

the Italian recipe of my child, his son, which is pork that's braised in milk. But also patty and it uses sweet and condensed milk. And her-- I have found her at the pier as well. Yeah, I mean,

“I've really been on like a five-year search for how to make these. Well, definitely you need to put”

some fat back in there. Don't trim the pork butt, you know, make it even. It's fat. You need fat for flavor and moisture, and you definitely need the salt, even if you don't use the curing salt, salt is very important here. I was in La Haca a couple years ago, and we made this recipe,

and I find in Mexico, they almost always cooked the meat separately. They put in a pressure cooker,

which they love. And they'll cook chicken, they'll cook pork, whatever. They cook it without seasonings. So, on the table, when we were cooking this outside on a wood fire, they had a bowl of cooked shredded pork. Then they had herbs, and they had onions, and they had things, and they got a big skillet, and they put in the mantecoli. Put the lard in, and they got the so-free dough going, right? And then they added the pork. The pork was already cooked, so they finished it up with the hot lard and all the other

flavorings, and cooked it and crisped it up in the pan, and it was very simple to do. You know, it didn't take a lot of time. You didn't have to sit there cooking the pork forever. That was already done the pressure cooker. That methodology of pre-cooking the meat, and finishing it up with all the flavorful ingredients with lard or oil. That's an easy way to do this recipe. This is not a hard recipe. The pressure cooker will take maybe an hour. You know, you get the pork done.

Yeah, Jennifer, do you have a pressure cooker? I do like an instant pot. Yeah, I have an instant pot. Yeah, pre-cook the pork in the is the pot. Take it out from it. Okay. Then in a big skillet or Dutch oven, get the lard or oil, get the so-free dough going, whatever you're going to cook it with, add the pork, cook it to flavor it, then throw it on the sheet tray under a broiler or finish it. We have pretty high heat in the skillet, and you're done. But the broiler doesn't

great job. Chris, in Mexico, did they add orange juice? No. But she certainly could. I mean, she's trying to replicate the one that she liked. Yeah, I'm just talking about the basic methodology. I would look at Patty's recipe. She's great cook. Carnitas can be a very difficult painful recipe to make. I'm just talking about a way to do it simpler. That's really helpful. Okay, and I think that would save me a few steps, and then I could really focus on getting the flavor

after it's already cooked. All right. Okay, well, you're going to have to tell us about the cause. Let us know. I will thank you both for helping me take care. Okay. Bye bye. Bye bye. This is Milestream Radio. If you're struggling with a recipe, please call us 855-426-9843-855-426-9843 or just email us at [email protected]. Welcome to Milestream, his calling. It's Oliver Kamato from Chicago. Hi, how are you? I love Chicago. I know we actually met at your live

event in Skokie. I'm the one that made an omelet and sang for the Skokie audience. Oh, yeah,

I remember you. Didn't you use to sing opera or something? I still may do that. You had an amazing

“voice. That's very nice for you to say. I do remember that. That was one of the best”

evenings ever. It was great. Well, I have a serious problem that I need to talk to you about. Okay. So I love these giant mama beans and I buy them dried and I don't know how long to soak them because every time I cook them, without fail, I get this little sprout that grows. When I cook it, it looks like there are maggots floating in the liquor. I've tried to soak them for less time. I've tried to cook them until they're just ready. Where were we? So how long

are you sucking them? Until they plump up so it could be anywhere between four or eight hours. Sometimes like overnight if I'm thinking of it. And then you're just simmering them in water until they're tender. Gently, until they're beautiful. Yes. I don't know. I've done this many times. I mean, maybe these why are you getting the lima beans from where? Are these really old

“from the grocery store? I mean, yeah, I know that's a question you always ask. Are they old?”

I do not tell them they're old or not. I mean, there's sometimes a dirty. I don't know where I'll have to get them besides the grocery store. Well, the the place to get your dry beans is

ranch or gordo and you get them online. And I bought some from them and I've never had that problem.

You're not doing anything wrong. I just think the beans are old and sprouty. I just gotta believe it's the beans. I mean, Sarah, you have any other thoughts? Well, let me ask you question, when you say sprouty, is it literally like something that looks like it's, you know, like, it's like a tiny little kale really, really small, smaller than a rice kernel, but it looks so much like a maggot. But it's not actually a sprout. No, it's coming from where the stem would be. Right, exactly. So it's

if you say so, I don't know that for a fact. No, what you said, okay, well, I don't know. I wasn't there. I wasn't seeing it. It's a crime. You know, if you don't want to argue with you, because I love you so much. Oh, you're a sweetie pie. But, I mean, soaking for 48 hours or overnight, you know, and also, by the way, I hope you put salt in the water because that's important when you're cooking dried beans. But I thought you'd put the salt in until near the end. No, no, no, no, no. That's an

old wife's myth. Oh, my god, I'm an old wife. Oh, no, I'm not saying that. It's some. Are you guys like, secretly married or something? Like a marriage argument? Yeah, you know, salting the beans makes the skin more tender when you actually cook them and also it's seasoned some. So they're deeply seasoned in nicely seasoned. It is true, though. I used to say, don't salt the water

when you soak them overnight, years ago. And now I say, always salt the water. Yeah, of course.

No, so many things have changed. If you wait long enough, it'll change again. But I don't think this one will. It's really horrifying because like the beans themselves come out to be so delicious. So I find myself going that the tiny little like chops that can kind of pick out these little things that really look like, you know, something you don't want in your food. Well,

“can I, can I, it's a really horrible question? Like, are they like squirming when they come out?”

They're not big. They're clearly not maggots, but at first glance, like, oh, my god, you're serving me maggots. You know, you got me. I've never seen that happen. Get them from Rancho Gordo, soak them overnight with some salt. But the question, we've not answered it. No, we're what we're avoiding it. What is that thing? Can you over soak a bean? Is that a thing? I've tried to stop the soaking before they form and I boil them and then I still get some of them.

I think we need to call our science guy here. Yeah, this is, this is beyond us. This is like a Halloween episode. Yeah. I read the theme book. I bought it. Cool beans based on your recommendation. I love it. But he doesn't talk at all about over soaking. I'm going to get Rancho Gordo beans because I love Rancho Gordo. I'm going to get my other beans and I'm going to

“take a picture of the fantasy. You know, I can do that because we'd like to know. I think we need to”

continue this conversation. Yeah. All right, I'll take care. You stumped us to be updated. Okay. Two bean updated. Thank you. You listening to most of your radio. Up next, Jose Andre's teaches us the Spanish way. I'm Jessica Bautalana, staff editor at King Arthur Baking Company. And I'm David Tumarkin, King Arthur's editor director. And this is Things Bakers Know,

a new podcast from King Arthur where we explore every corner of the baking world. Every episode of Things Bakers Know dives deep into a different baked good.

Plus, we'll always leave time to answer your home baking questions. Subscribe now so you won't

miss an episode. This is most of your radio. I'm your host, Christopher Kimball. Jose Andre's does it all. Since starting world's central kitchen in 2010, he and that organization have served over 600 million meals around the world. He also owns more than 40 restaurants and now, well he's coming out with a new cookbook called Spain My Way. Jose, welcome. Welcome back to

Milk Street. I'm so happy to be here with you again, Chris. Now, last time we talked,

“you didn't have 40 restaurants. I think you had 20 something. You've served 600 million meals”

around the world. We're all central kitchen. I'm growing. And growing. And so, how do you manage your time? I'm this serious question. How do you do so much? Yeah, I mean, sometimes probably regretted so much because I want to be here, but then I need to be there. And I want to be there, but I need to be here. So you know, I make sure I balance my free time with my hobby time, business time. But for me, it's all the same. Cooking is the way I

always mean happy. And feeding others is the way I'm the happiest. We talked about this

of the time, but I think you tried to bring in food to Gaza from the water. Could you just talk about that? Like, what was your plan and what were the challenges? Well, with the labor food twice, by boat in very difficult conditions, with no machinery, we could bring in and use using whatever we have there. But the purpose was clear, we had to be bringing food to the north, we had to be bringing food to two people that were going hungry. And we were, we were never diagnosed and answered.

perished by the drone attack, by the IDF. Obviously, this was a day that forever will be with me.

“And the message is very clear, conflicts should not happen, wars should not happen, and especially”

civilians, humanitarians, hospitals, doctors, schools, press. They can never be victims in a conflict.

They can never be target. It's never excuse to target innocent human life. And that's all I have to say about this. So, you're involved with this massive humanitarian effort, as you said, 600 million meals in counting. And at the same time, you have all these restaurants and you're serving people food. It seems like the span of your interests and your energy is from the very worst of humanity, right? In some ways, to the very best, because cooking for other people is one of

the best things we could do as humans. They somehow, those things go together for you in some way. Yeah, I think we're close to a billion meals now, because only in between Ukraine and Gastelon, we've done more than, don't say 150 million meals together. So, the numbers are used to staggering in how this organization keeps growing. In Ukraine, it was almost 300 days in and out. But let me tell you what I keep going. The one I go, I see that in the worst moments of humanity,

always the best of humanity shows up. In America, when it's a tornado, when it's a hurricane,

the fires in Adina and Palisade, there you don't see Republicans, there you don't see Democrats, there you don't see religions, there you see people helping people. And going the extra mile,

“used to bring hope to others in the middle of the Mayhem. And I think that's what keeps me going.”

Let's turn to food for a second. You know, I think you write in your book, Spain, my way. Anything claimed to have been invented in France was probably originally made in Spain, which I love. But you said Mayonnaise is actually based on Mahon. And so the word Mayonnaise is a Spanish origin. Yeah, my mayonnaise is one that for Spain, obviously the connection with Mahon Israel,

that is the capital of Manorca. If you have never been, it's in the Balary Islands in the Mediterranean,

beautiful place, a place you will want to be born and probably you will want to retire. And the story will say that the French forces capture Mahon under the Duke of Richelier. It seems that the Shav of Richelier they are in Mahon itself, got the egg yolk and the oil, because you know, traditionally French will do it with butter or will do it with cream, but there was no butter or cream available, but there we had plenty of oil.

And there in my own, there's a place that Mayonnaise seems was really created and I will go all the way in that Mayonnaise is a Spanish invention. I am Hossein Dres, and I endorse this message, even if it was done like this story by French in the island of Mahon. If it happened in a Spain, it is a Spanish period. Nobody can refute this very simple truth. You're a definitive guy. You know, one thing I've always wondered about,

you know, I've talked about the garlic bread soup that you'd have towards the end of the month. When recipes are designed based upon what's really available, you're not doing it just because you like it. It comes out of the ground. It comes out of the need. How do those recipes migrate into the 21st century and still retain their meaning if the people making them, you know, have other options. They have more money. They travel the world. Does that still bread soup with

“garlic and water you made for me years ago? Does that still live in the 21st century in some way?”

I think it leaves everywhere. Maybe it's more difficult in the cities. You know, when you live in a city, you have a supermarket that has ingredients from all around the world and you don't understand really any more that wonderful timing of the seasons. Either way, I do believe some of the best dishes really do come from the necessity of the moment. One of the recipes I have in this book,

to be loving, cooking and food. And this is when I visit being very young, the town of a family member of my father. And he will have this big cast iron cauldron. And there he had the table, wooden table that maybe was two, three generations old. And you could see the marks of its life in the surface. And right there was this mountain like a volcano of bread crumbs. And that bread was a few days old. It was not going to go to garbage. So when he went into the pot with a

fat of the pork melting, that dish of simple bread, toasted on its own, with a garlic clove

“as the only thing to give it a little kiss of some other flavor. And then fry egg after fry”

egg on the same colds, the bread, the miga's, the fry egg, breaking the egg yolk with the help of the fork, the bread kissing each other with the egg yolk. And you put in the egg and the bread in the mouth. That's the moment that I have a feeling I fall in love with tradition, I fall in love with cooking, sometimes the least amount of ingredients if they are driven with respect can be the most sublime of the dishes. So explain to me how you ended up at Elbuli,

front just walked into the restaurant you were working at and thought you had promise? Yeah, in the summer I would be in this restaurant, a seafood restaurant called Lantui, and was the best seafood restaurant in that town. And for run, who was working in Elbuli,

“young, 24, probably, me, I was much younger. And I remember that that was the first time I”

cook for him. And the first time I say hi, brief conversation, but powerful enough.

I already knew of him, but I kind of find that that was kind of a calling that he will be coming there. And when I already was thinking, I should work in Elbuli, the next season I was there. And obviously my life in many ways changed forever. Could you describe what that kitchen was like at the beginning? I mean, what it was obviously very different than almost any other type of restaurant. So how was it different?

Well, I was at the very early, early moment of the big man. One of the dishes I was doing was

these amazing chips of vegetables. I had there my pot of oil and I was trying the

cheap little by little. And also part of another one of the dishes in my station was kind of a gelatin of almond milk. That is what we call a hoblanco. So I had this gelatin and I was getting my missing glass ready and the gelatin I will cut these kind of cubes. And then I could see the Thuramware and he would check in the cubes. But although the sun I began seeing his eyes and he was looking at the hot oil and he was looking at the gelatin between his two fingers.

And he passed it from his right hand to the left hand and he keep looking at the oil. And we were

“all looking at each other in the kitchen thinking is he going to put the almond milk in the oil?”

Yes, Ferran, throw the gelatin of almond milk into the hot pot of oil where I was frying the vegetables. And as we know, oil don't like liquids. A big explosion happened. As every time you put the liquid in hot oil. So when he throws the gelatin into the hot oil

were you thinking he's just crazy? Or you think he's? Yeah. But then it like okay but we never

done it. Right. Somebody had to be the first person. Ten years later Ferran and Rhea created what we call the liquid croqueta of Hamon, a very iconic Spanish dish that you find in many tapas bars. That croqueta became one of the legendary dishes of Ferran. That liquid croqueta that then years later happened in that moment. I was describing you few minutes ago. Ferran show us the way. You write. I love this. If you're in a Spanish restaurant that has churros on the dessert menu, walk out.

And if they confuse server as you why, you can tell them that Jose told you too. So why should I walk out in Spain in a restaurant that has churros on the dessert menu? Well, it can't be the one that has amazing churros. And then that's the one that you shouldn't work out. But usually

is the last thing you eat. Of our early morning breakfast and is the first thing you eat. So churros in a restaurant is not something traditionally you will see. That's done in another moment

in another part of the sequence of life. Late night or early breakfast, but never at the end of

the dessert of a meal in a sit down restaurant. There's also a tradition of Maryanda, which is bread with wine and sugar, the kids eat. So what? I'm going to try this with my kids. So I don't even know if that's happening anymore, but I remember being in these little town in Santa Coloma de Ferbello,

“outside Barcelona. And that's where I grew up. And there is where I remember that Jose bread”

with a sprinkle red wine on top to let the bread absorb the wine and use the sugar and sprinkle. And that was so, so delicious. Obviously it was a great way for my brothers and I and the other children to fall asleep the one hour or two hours that our parents will have to have a break from the intensity for young boys. I don't know if today this will be allowed or even if my family will be persecuted without a whole loss of the land, but I can tell you that to this day is one of the most

delicious things I remember having as a child. You have three girls? How old are they now your kids? Carlota 27 in S. 23 and Lucia 21 and the great news is that they keep showing up at home.

“In this house, in this kitchen, they know when certain things arrive and they know that”

in the right season, I'm going to have these amazing Clementines and nectarines from O'Hye Balay

in California. When there is the season of Asparos over there is the season of Morels, I know that my daughters sooner or later are going to be showing up. And when they want something, they know they can text and we're ready for Crocetas and the Crocetas will be waiting for them in the fridge. So I want to believe that my daughters in a way they keep coming back obviously to see their mother, my wife Patricia and myself, but I have a feeling that those foods of their childhood

who are the foods of my childhood is one of the the reasons they keep coming back home.

“Jose, it's always a pleasure to talk to you. I always give you my heart and let's cook together soon.”

I love to Jose, thank you for your time. Thank you, Chris. Be kiss. That was Jose Andres, his new book is "Spain My Way." You can find an extended cut of our interview on Tuesday, May 19th at Milk Street Radio.com or wherever you find your podcast. You know, I work hard, but nobody out works Jose with a world central kitchen and 40 restaurants. He's fascinated with everything culinary from molecular

gastronomy at El Bully in his early days to cooking bread crumbs in a cast iron pot with pork fat and serving them with a fried egg. Jose is in fact a modern day Renaissance man, a little bit like maybe Leonardo da Vinci. These philosophers really show us how to live large. Be wise and

witty, subtle and deep moral and grave, and never ever abandoned a child's fascination with the mysteries of the world.

You're listening to Milk Street Radio. Coming up, we dissect internet memes. I'm Christopher Campbell and you're listening to Milk Street Radio. Next up, my coho Ceremony will answer a few more of your cooking questions. Welcome to Milk Street, who's calling? Hi, it's Leanne and Canada. Hi, Leanne. How can we help you today? Well, I'm hoping you can help me with an ongoing problem.

I have a mother-in-law who her diet has been changed to no solids. So I've been trying to help by making her custard. I've been putting for the last few years and I've found that when I try to

a pudding that would be setting up will then just go thin again. And I'm wondering why that is

or is there something I could be doing otherwise that's wrong? Is there a thickener in the custard you're making? You've got eggs, sugar, milk, right? Yeah, and usually I've almost gone completely to flour because corn starch was making me crazy. So you said you've tried upping the eggs in a custard? Yeah. Okay. If you cook eggs all by themselves, right? You know, scrambling, whatever. They will form into curds at a much lower temperature than if you

“add some liquid to them and sugar. You can take them to a higher temperature and you need to, you know,”

until they thicken properly. But if you up the amount of eggs, you've now distorted the ratio of

liquid and sugar to eggs. So now they're going to curdle at a lower temperature. So that is not ideal.

I hear you about corn starch. It's very tricky. If you beat it too much it breaks down. If you beat it too little, but also when you add starch to eggs, unless you cook it to a much higher temperature, almost to 12, the eggs have something in them that eats the starch and will make the whole thing thin out again. I had no idea. Yeah. If the eggs are all by themselves, cook them lower. If the eggs are with starch, you need to cook them much higher. What's the basic recipe,

how many eggs? It would be two, so I have an assortment of recipes that I've been making. But if I can go to two eggs, if I go to three eggs, it won't. So you're mixing the eggs with sugar and then adding

some of the hot milk to it or something and putting it back in. Yeah. Now you're using three eggs.

You're stirring gently, stirring the mixture. You're heating it. You have a thermometer there. I do. Yeah. I get it to 180. Right. 180. Yeah. And then when it gets to 180, it's starting to thicken. It has thickened by then. Yeah. And then what's happening is as it cools and sets it starts to unthicken. That's right. There's no difference between doing that and doing the recipe with two eggs. Right. Everything else is the same. Everything is the same. Yep. Mm. Is it a little bit curdled?

As well as water? No. It doesn't cur. Mm. It's just watery. Yep. It just stands right out into

“alcohol. I don't know if I heavier than cream, but you have to eat it like a soup.”

Somehow those bonds are breaking down as it's cooling. Yeah. They're not setting properly. So now you're adding flour. Cornstarch is tricky. Cornstarch not only is a problem in terms of how much you heat it, but also if you stir to vigorously, it'll break down. Cornstarch does not take to agitation very well. So you can't risk it. Yeah. If you use a wooden spoon and are very gentle in the stirring, cornstarch works great because it's all starch. Flour has proteins and

starch. So it's a less effective thickener. If you take it easy, keep it over medium heat and use a wooden spoon and don't stir it too much. You probably will have success with a cornstarch. I've got another idea, which is instant tapioca. A lot of bakers love to use it.

“I think it's more stable. It also is good with acid. You're talking about the powdered”

form of a fray and liquid form. Yeah. Yeah. I still don't get the extra egg. I think that's really interesting. We're going to have to try that. Yeah. No, that is so strange. But you didn't change the recipe. All you did was add an extra egg. Everything else is the same. This is, we might have to call Harold the Gage. This is kitchen mystery theater. Yeah. Yeah. Fascinating hall. Yeah. Well, we'll have to get back to Leanne with the answer. Oh, yeah. I appreciate your time and I will try

tapioca. Okay. Thanks. Thank you. Bye. Bye now. This is most street radio. If you have a kitchen disaster, that's really bugging you. We want to help give us a ring, 855-426-9843. One more time, 855-426-9843, or just email us at [email protected]. Welcome to Milksrade, who's calling? Hi, this is Melon from Chicago, Illinois. How can we help you? I've been baking for many years. And over time, I've drawn to love trying new breads around the world. For example, I found out

about the Japanese times on methods, please see us in both breads. No, breads now. And I really like the moisture breads that resulted. So my question has two parts. How do I modify a recipe to use tongue salt? And secondly, what are some other unusual bread methods and techniques that you could recommend for me to try at home? Wow. Man, I'm going to have to work. Yes. I've made milk bread. And the secret to it, as you know, is you cook the flour with some of the water

in that gelatin mixture slurry. And it's trapped. So you end up in the entire recipe with a much higher hydration. As you know, hydration is the weight of the water divided by the weight of the flour. Most breads are 65-75%. But you can get a much higher hydration

“by trapping that water there, which gives you the benefit of being able to work the dough, right?”

Because of highly hydrated dough, it was very hard to work with, like a very wet pizza dough, for example. So it allows you to do it. And then also more water in the bread, the higher the hydration, you get a softer, more interesting crumb. It also lasts longer. Milk bread will last quite a long time. So you get their wonderful texture. Your question is what else can you do it with? Well, you could probably try it with any bread, like a white sandwich bread, and just cook a little bit of

the flour and the water to start. And then mix that slurry in with the dough later. And I would look at the milk bread recipe to figure out proportions. But I would just follow the same proportions in that recipe. And you could apply it to almost any bread. But wouldn't you want it to be a softer bread? Isn't that the point of it? I don't know. I think it's a French bread. Well, as I said,

“sandwich bread. But I don't know. I think it would be interesting to try any bread.”

Other methods you could try are, you know, sort of no need bread, which came along 20 years ago, or at least was popularized 20 years ago in the era of times. My Mark Bitman. And that's a very, very hydrated bread, which is cooked inside of a Dutch oven with a top on the moisture from the bread, help steam it as it cooks. That's when you can certainly do another one I like to do as you start, you know overnight with a police with usually one cup of flour, one cup of water. I think

half a teaspoon of yeast makes that together, put it on the counter, cover with wrap, and let it sit overnight, and it develops that pool-ish, that starter, and you mix that in with the rest of the recipe the next day. Anything else? I was going to say, you know, it sounds like you're pretty experienced, so I'm sure you've already done sourdough. But how about flat breads? You know, um, heat-a-dough is fun to do. Flat breads, you can do them without any loving and at all.

You can do them with baking, you know, chemical, ovening, baking powder, or you can do them with yeast, and there's a million of them, and they're all pretty quick and they're really delicious, yeah. That's really helpful for the flour and water page. When I'm trying to convert another recipe to just use this, do I add extra water or do I just take some of the water's dirty in the recipe, and some of the flour's dirty in the recipe? No, the water that you mix with the flour and cook

initially is extra, and it's not going to change the recipe. I mean, you just don't count it.

“So I think what you would do is add extra water above what's in the recipe to some flour to start.”

The gelatin will hold on to it, so it's essentially not counted, but you end up with more water

overall when it's baked, which gives you a better texture. So the answer is, don't change the

liquid amount in the recipe, but add extra water to cook with that flour at the beginning. And I would look at the milk bread recipe just to get a profile. You did one in the magazine, right? Yeah, I made milk bread a year or two ago with Snoko Sakai. She wrote Japanese Home Cooking, which is a fabulous book, by the way. Actually, I actually used the tags on method to make a pie pastry once, which did not shrink much. Interesting. Yeah, it was, so it works. I think it would work with

almost any bread. It's a very smart idea. Good for you. I would try with different bread recipes. Okay, thank you so much. Thank you. Pleasure. Thanks, we're going. Yes. Yeah. Bye. Bye. This is Mostree Radio. Time to check in with our friends, Grant Barrett and Martha Burnett, of Away With Words. Grant Martha, how are you guys doing? Fantastic. You're doing great. So this week, you've told me we're doing something a bit different, which gives me enormous pause.

I never know what that means, so maybe you could fill in the blank here.

An enormous pause. Like a bear. I'm envisioning some pictures. Bear pause. Oh boy. Well, Chris, we sent you a list of some languagey food memes that have been making the rounds of the internet. And we thought why not overexplying these until there's no humor left. So, so, so we've got this list. Let's find out what these Mimi, one-liners are really all about. The more the egg you want to the point of this sort of thing now, is that what's going on?

My brains are a little scrambled. It's true. Yeah. Okay. So the first one my list is Sharkutari. Yeah. And the meme is Sharkutari is a French phrase, meaning I bought too much at the deli.

It sounds fancy, but there's some languagey stuff there. The first one is,

It tastes better, too. Yeah. But there's another angle to go with this, Martha.

“And that's the deli part of this. When we're talking about cold cuts that you get the deli,”

or deli, means I had this strange experience the other day you guys, and Chris, I don't know if you've run into this, where I was talking to some people online who didn't know that deli was short for deli-cattessen. And my truth. Yeah. It was a thing. But there's etymology there, too, which I think is really fascinating, that we used deli-cattessen in English to refer to the place where we buy cold cuts, but in German and Dutch, the word once referred to any kind of fine food,

the same way that we might call fine food delicacies in English. Oh, that's actually, that's really interesting deli-cattessen, all right. He says it was a surprise. So the next of my list is latte. latte, they say on the internet, it's French for you pay too much for that coffee. Very true. But you know Martha, everyone really should run their food and language

memes by us first. That's true. Because latte is in French. It's actually Italian. It's the time

word for milk. And I know you know this, Chris. Well, I was in Milan changing planes, I don't know, 20 years ago. So they had a little cafe in the airport. And I went up and I ordered a latte. And of course, you know what I got. Just a couple of warm milk. Exactly. A couple of warm milk.

“And some of like a baby. So so, but then the question is, should I pretend that's what I wanted to”

drink? Of course. Or should I put it on a table and walk back to the end of the line, which is what I did. Because I need to speak coffee. But I felt like such a complete idiot. And I'm like, could I have a latte please? I'm not in Starbucks. I'm in Milan. And I'm okay. How about eggnog? Oh, yeah. So the meme is eggnog implies the existence of other more secret types of nags. Oh, you, that's the setup. What nags could they be?

Yeah. Well, it's kind of true, isn't it? My thought nags was originally a type of strong alcohol within it mixed in. Right. Right. So if you were making an alcoholic drink made out of eggs, you would indeed want to tell people what to expect right there in the name. But we don't know where nags comes from, the word anyway. But you know, eggs in alcohol have a long tradition. So you know, maybe there are secret nags that are so secret they don't even have a nag in their

names. What, what about the term naggin? What is that? It's possible. It is related to a drinking vessel the size of the head. But it's unsure because it's one of those very old words. It's sort of like mug. So okay. So um, how about buffet? I mean, what's the meme there? All right. So the meme is, and I've seen this a bunch of times, but it's another one of the, so where people just pretend not to understand French buffet is a French word that means get up and get it yourself. But Martha,

“I think what we should say is buffet is a word that means don't lick the serving spoon or I hope”

there's a sneeze guard. I think you shouldn't go to a restaurant than a sneeze guards on the deal with buffet. I mean, it's a good idea. Pretty much every single European language has some form of the word buffet because this concept, as you know, there's this period where hey, let's just line all of our food across the top of a piece of furniture and everyone can serve themselves. It kind of was, it was trendy. And so it comes from the name of the piece of furniture. So buffet,

the meal or the type of eating comes from the furniture and it might be related to this idea of being open to the air because the buffet may come from the automatic pee and sound of a crack like puff. Well, puff makes me think of Buffett Tanikas, which is, that's the sentence that will live an infamy. I just want to say, it makes you think of what Buffett Tanikas. What in God's name does that mean? Buffett Tanikas is a Lithuanian word that comes from French buffet and it now means bartender.

Buffett Tanikas, that's, that's my favorite word never only interested in what sounds cool. Yeah, just belly up to the bar and beef with an incase. All right, one more mean before we go crash, which cheese festival is the shortest. Cheese. You're going to be sorry. You're going to be sorry for this one. Yeah, I'm already sorry. Yes, Marla, give me the answer there. Come on. Well, the cheese festival that's the shortest is the briefest. Oh Lord, is that no good occurs? We

go. You feeling blue, guys? You guys crash and burn in the last one. Keldomaj, Keldomaj.

Ray Martha, thank you so much. It's amazing what comes out of your nogans. It's always a surprise.

Till next time, thank you guys. Our pleasure, Chris. Thanks, it is.

Martha recently published a new book called Friends With Words, Adventures in Language Layout.

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