The Freedom Reader

- Conan O'Brien needs a fan. Wanna talk to Conan? Visit teamcoco.com/calledconan. Okay, let's get started.

“- Hey, Reginald Welcome to Conan O'Brien needs a fan.”

Hey, how's it going? - Hey, Reginald, how are you? - I'm delightful, man. I'm doing it. I'm doing great.

Honestly, yeah. - I have been reading your bio, your story, your Marvel origin story, Reginald, and it's fascinating. It's amazing.

- Thank you. - And you're done wrapping yours, I mean,

yours is amazing, man, I'm just trying to make it out of it.

- No, here's better. - Yeah, obviously. Sorry, Reginald, Reginald, Reginald. I love to, I love to shoot my own horn, but no, you have me beat by a country mile.

You just have an amazing story. You have a lot degree from Yale Law School, and which is insanely impressive, and you have an MFA in poetry, and here's what's,

those are incredibly impressive accomplishments. And then you add to it that when you were 16, you participated in a carjacking, and went to prison for eight and a half years. - Yeah, that was not as impressive.

“I think that was the band of my existence,”

but I think you live and learn, and for me, picking up a gun was the most crazy, lawless, out-valent thing I've ever done in my life. And nobody sells you that you could do something that's 16 that'll change your life forever.

As many teachers that used to sell me, I would end up in jail while I could end up in day, 'cause I lived in a band able, so to speak. - Right. - I don't even really understand

that I could change my life forever. And I did, I changed my life forever. So that's the kind of devastating thing about it is recognizing that I change my life forever. - Well, there's so much to people

to say unpack here, but there's so much to talk about, as far as I know, you spent a lot of time in solitary, when you were in prison,

and while you're in solitary, you discovered books. Is that correct? - Yeah, I did, I did two years often on a solitary, but the thing that's really remarkable is,

I'm 18, is over 17, is over, I'm in a whole, and it took all the books for me. And the thing is, 24 hours in a cell, which is four walls, not as beautifully decorated as the walls around me.

(laughing) I mean, it's, say, yeah, I find this, that's some impressive artwork around you. - And I was unraveling, and I heard a guy call out for a book,

and I realized that these dudes had created a underground library for themselves. And all you had to do was call out for a book, and they were singing you one. And so I said, yo, send me a book,

and they sent me this anthology called "The Black Toils." And then introduced me to Robah Hayden, who's still clifed in, song in Sanchez, Langston Hughes, Sterling Brown at the rich night. And I'm reading these words,

and I realized that these poets were able to capture an entire life in 14 lines. - Yeah. - And I remember buying two books. This is the first books I bought with my money.

It was a Sonia Sanchez book called "Unda a soprano sky." And it was sons who was the art of war. - Yeah. - Now, I was, I was trying to survive prison.

I was five, five, in 120 pounds. - Oh my God. - Of those two books, I read Sonia Sanchez's book a hundred times.

And I never, I never finished reading the art of war.

- Yeah. - Because I learned the real way to survive prison ended up being loved. The end of that being the exact antithesis of what had gotten most of us in prison.

“Because I think the antithesis of love is violence.”

And so it was Sonia Sanchez's "Unda a soprano sky" that became a part of the pathway of me learning to love myself, but also in learning to love myself. Me learning to understand that we had did horrendous things,

the land ourselves in prison, but that we could be more than those things. And it'll spit my entire life since they're trying to prove that they'd be true. - I'm curious, had you been at all interested

or intrigued by books, or even the idea of getting around the books before you went to prison? - You know, the last book that I read. So my local library said, "Mr. Bets, "we understand you're still in prison,

"but we need you to return this book "that you checked out." - And it was that Evelyn was, but you wouldn't believe what book it was. It was that Evelyn was got to speed read.

See, I've always been obsessed with infomercials, right?

- Yeah. - If anyone had those infomercials, we had to speed read. - Yeah.

but she didn't believe that this guy could read, you know, a thousand words a minute. When he was flipping a pageist, my mom said, "He's just flipping a pageist." - Yeah.

- I said, "No, he's reading, listen to this." And so I went to the library, and I found that Evelyn was book, and I checked it out.

“And I still remember that tips that was in it.”

So I've always been fascinated with reading.

I've always wanted to be a read of a mom, refused to let anybody tell me that hardback books came out first, so that she could keep giving me that old paperback books of books I hadn't read yet

as if they were new. She would be like, "What's the most of this new book "just came out? "Well, came out three years ago." - Yeah.

- Yeah. And so, with prison did, was like, honestly, the judge said to me, "I'm gonna do no illusion that send to you "to prison will help."

But you can get something out of it if you try to. - Right. - And I never forgot what he told me. And I just had to lean in with I cared about it.

And I asked myself, "What would you be

"when you leave prison?" I mean, you 16 now, what are you going to train yourself to be while he's in here? - Yep.

- And I told myself, I would be a writer

“because the only thing that I could name myself as loving,”

and that way outside of my mom was books. And I needed to love something that I believe might save me. And so I decided to lean into the love of books. - That's a, I mean, it's kind of stunning to me that you wouldn't encourage people to read

who are incarcerated. And, you know, supposedly, the concept behind the penal system is for people to better themselves and reform and grow. And so I'm amazed

that books are denied to people in solitary. And that's a new concept to me because I would think you want people to read, you want people to build their minds. And the fact that you had to kind of do it secretly is kind of surprising to me.

- Yeah, but that, you know, it's sort of credited to the public corrections around this country. I think that they've improved and changed a lot. - Yep.

- My biggest supporters are the Department of Corrections. Our first Freedom Library was in Angola. I won a and won b and gola in MCI Northford with Malcolm X the entire time. And you gotta understand it.

There's work that we've done.

“Opened a 600 libraries across the country,”

prisons in 1415 states, about 50 different prisons. That doesn't happen without the Department of Corrections in the senior leadership in the Department of Corrections. And the last CEOs, all on CEOs, all saying, we believe in books, we believe in literature.

And we book, I mean, we bring a hundred pound book cases

and put them in cell blocks that have never had anything

for plastic and metal and steel. We bring 500 brand new books instead of the lives of people who many of them have never seen a brand new book. Have never smelled the brand new book.

I mean, I said about work that I do, but with all do respect, it's like the most humbling, you know, all inspiring thing I've been in part of. Because to be a part of it is the literally watch

how an invention that dates back hundreds of years that Gutenberg printing press. Actually, it's new to conduit for people to have access to the world and we first imagine a print press would get a max access.

- Yeah, yeah. - It is, it's cool. Well, I mean, it's beyond cool. I want to make sure I stress this. You get out of prison.

You go to Yale Law School and you have found it something called Freedom Reads. It's an organization that gives incarcerated people access to books. And you guys have, as you said, opened somewhere around 500 libraries

across about 45 prisons in 14 states. And this is going to have an enormous impact. I'm sure it already has. But I do think that exposing people to books and giving them the chance to better themselves

and find actually the love. It's not like eating your spinach, the love of books and the possibilities opened by books. That's a massive thing that you've done. It's huge.

I know you're a humble person, but it's incredible. You had this great misfortune when you were 16 years old. And you've, it's just a massive contribution you've made.

I cannot tell you how impressed I am by what you've done. - I appreciate that. And we have seven, eight people of workforce out of our team. It's 22, served time in prison. Anywhere from 18 months to 30 years.

And for each of us, you know, the books played a profound role in us reshaping our lives.

remember, I got a bowl of head, but you remember, I'm not just a client, I'm not just a president. I'm a client, you know. - Don't you know, I feel like I have a clear club for men. Size Burling.

Size Burling when Andy's commercial is a spray,

“I think that you could put on your bald spot.”

You would say I'm not just a satisfied, you know, I'm not just a president, I'm a client. - And he could reveal. - Yeah, this is like, I feel like I just about, I carry books around with me everywhere,

because I just don't talk about this. I got to book in my bag, you know. We tell people that we heat books because books are the talisman that would have kept us safe when we chose to pick up pistols.

Yeah, books would have talisman that would have kept us safe. Instead of the pistols that call us more harm. - The, um, did you know when you were getting out of, did you have a plan when your sentence is coming to an end?

Did you have a clear goal then I am going to get this higher education or was it something that unfolded gradually after you got out? - Now, I mean, I was just talking to somebody a few minutes ago about ADHD

and one of the real blessings in my life is that I have horrible ADHD,

which means I've never had a plan in my life.

“And the reality is you go to prison at 16,”

if you a person that operates on a plan, you might have a hall of time. I had literally never had a plan. I've kind of just moved through this world with a hope and a desire to be better

than I was when I committed that crown and a curiosity and an openness. And so, you know, I ended up in law school because I was struggling to get jobs that were supporting you. I ended up representing friends of mine

and I got five people out of prison that I did time with because once I went to law school, they were like, "Well, do I and your lawyer "can you help with my case?" I started freedom reads because a friend and a supporter

who also works for another foundation had asked me, "What would I do for people in prison "if money wasn't an issue?" And I said, "We put millions of people in prison,

"I will put a million books in prison."

And she said, "How?" And I said, "One library at a time." And with that phrase, I started making up freedom reads, I started making up the organization that's had a profound change in my life.

This is the first job that I've had since 2006 because I've essentially been a student and independent writer and performer from 2006 until now, and now I've run an organization with a multi-million dollar budget.

20 people that worked on didn't need. I mean, it's been amazing, but I would be lying to you if I pretended like this was a part of a plan.

“I think the only plan I've had was trust.”

- Yes, that's well said, yeah. I mean, but that's true of a lot of people. I know it's true in my case. I can't say I had a plan. I just kind of followed my passion.

And it was always news to me.

Like I didn't know where it was gonna lead. I didn't know where I was gonna go. I sure I took a lot of missteps along the way, but you, you know, I think that's a good message to get out there is that it's not people saying,

okay, this is exactly what I'm gonna do when here are the steps. There's a jazz quality to it where you're just playing what you feel and if you trust and you're leading

with that kind of positive energy and you merit to a work ethic, things happen. And you're proof of that, it's amazing. Absolutely amazing. - Thank you.

(upbeat music) - You talk about the smell of new books. I've been kicked out of bookstores 'cause I just go and smell them. - Oh.

- Yeah, yeah. - Yeah. - Like you open them and smell them. - I open them and I-- - I open them and I stand by the bookshelf sniffing.

- I open them, no, I open them and I smell them. - Okay. - And I guess it's a perversion. (laughing) - Our people hold them.

- Only if you don't bat a bookstone. It's like if you bat a couple of the books that people do bookstores, they'd be delighted. You know, you just gotta bat. - No, I'm just gonna bat two and three.

- You know, I'm gonna tell you something Reginald, I'm a sniff and runner, I get a good deep sniff. And then I run and I'm wearing a raincoat when I do it. - The sniff and spread, yeah. - Yeah, sniff and spread, yeah.

And there's my pictures up in a lot of bookstores around the country. Like, you know, he'd be like, who was in a section with a read-as-nages? - Yeah, really, you know, from the early 20th century.

- Oh, that's cone is favorite section. (laughing) - Have you seen this man? - Hey, it's 100 degrees out and it says sunny day.

- That's my business. (laughing)

“- Reginald, I'm a creep and you knew that”

when you contacted us. So this is all on you.

But I also think that, you know, a lot of us have bad,

make bad mistakes when we're around 16 years old. We don't have, I wouldn't have had access to any, I wouldn't have known where to get a gun or but. So there's a quality to some of it, which is like, yeah, mistakes.

Usually people make mistakes, bad mistakes, when they're in those teenage years. That's when they do it. And then, you know, I'm very aware that I was incredibly fortunate to be in a situation

where my bad impulses couldn't get much worse 'cause I'm living in a very stable kind of environment. Do you know what I mean? And I wouldn't have known where to get a gun, frankly. And I used to ask people, how do I get a gun?

- Oh, you know, I did. - Why? - My, my son's. - Yeah. - Because, you know, makes you cool.

You somebody asks me once. - Yeah, right. - And I'll see you next. - No, no, no. - I'm going to disagree with you.

(laughing) Me with a gun does not look cool. - I don't think it would do that. - No, no, I don't think so. - I look like a frightened old woman

who found a gun. Just wondering where to return it.

“- The crazy thing about it, though, is I believe it.”

So like, even as a kid, I really had no access to guns. - Yeah. - I'd pretend that I did, but I didn't. And then this one day, I did. But I think about my son's life.

And they have never seen a fight before, you know?

So some of it, I think about how radically different the life that I've been able to provide for my son's have been because they haven't seen a kind of violence that my childhood was steeped down. Even if I didn't grow up in a worse neighborhood,

I didn't grow up in worse neighborhood, but I got beat up, I got beat up, you know, at least 15 times. How many things do we have? - Things that I was like, you know,

that's been my childhood on the ropes. You know, I mean, he's the call me Glash Joe. That's the joke. See, Cody got me trying to be a comedian now because this was the first time that I've been

around somebody truly funny. - Wait, so where did you grow up? Where did you grow up? - Right outside of D.C. in a PG County, Maryland. - Yeah, okay.

- So which would have been a fit of like the nation's capital and you could see everything. And my mom had a great government job, but it also had the poverty and in the sense of being a black belt,

like right outside of the center, everything, but literally right outside of the center of it.

I was the first person, my family to go to college

and the first person to graduate from prison. And that's not supposed to be a potential reality of somebody growing up in the '80s and the '90s. That's not supposed to be the last gap of what it means to, you know, be in a marriage of citizen.

But it literally was my perspective. - Yeah, what do you, what do you credit because there have been many people, obviously that have been in your situation and not have this spectacular turnaround.

Who do you credit or what do you credit this ability to turn this massive negative into a positive and to, as you sort of say, pursue love and understanding and acceptance? - Where did that come from?

- I'm gonna go ahead and credit my mom and I'm gonna credit my mom for two reasons. First, you know, on a front and she forgave me. And I didn't, she didn't make me beat myself up. She just accepted that I was better than that.

And she had to accept it on faith. You know, she had to really believe that I was better than the crown that I committed. And conveyed that to me in such a way that I could believe that I was better.

And so I credit my mom and then she put money behind her belief. I took a fairly good course in prison. She paid for it. You know, I was buying those books in prison.

She sent me the money for it. So I'm credit debt. And I will also credit, you know, like every time somebody was honest with me. The judge was honest with me.

He told me, I'm gonna know illusion that sending you to prison will help. But you can get something out of it. And it was a challenge as well as just being a statement that like you 16 and everybody else is gonna say,

I do a little power you have. How small you are, how violent prison is. I'm gonna tell you, you can get something out of it if you want.

“And I think that I've always had this attitude”

once I went to prison and feel like I was I have to sink to rock bottom. That I could be who I say I have. And I have just sort of committed myself and dedicated myself in a single way.

So doing that and then I also say the last thing is that because I spent so much time in prison,

I was able to pursue and chase my interests.

And I was able to learn a lot about things that I thought were completely unrelated until they became related. Like who would have known me maneuvering around the department of corrections

and around CEOs and around warms will be the skill set that I needed 20 years later when I'm starting an organization at demands that I not look at CEOs and warms as my enemies. - Yeah.

- And I had to choose in prison that they weren't my enemy.

“And that's why it's easy for me to do it now.”

I had to choose in prison that I had a story that needed to be bigger than me being a felon so that the CEOs had to have a story that was bigger than them being a CEO. And so it was all of these small things

that actually built a set of skills

that people trusted me to deploy in a way that matters.

- But honestly, I'm just here for the right and I could say that I wouldn't have guessed any of this when I was 16. I wouldn't even have guessed that I was of our prison. - Yeah.

- But I don't think I would trade anything for the journey. - Well, Reginald, you're an incredibly inspiring person, a really impressive person, honored to get to talk to you seriously. And you're doing something that's huge,

really is huge. - Very few people can say they've had this kind of impact that you're gonna have on all these lives. And so I'm, you know, could not be happier to talk to you. And if you have a question for me,

sometimes people call and they have a question, you may not have a question for me, you know? - I do, I got one. And I say, I've wrote you myself like two o'clock in the morning, you know,

when I was like, man, I would love to be on this show. And, and I mean, and it's one of those things though, it was like, yo, it's somebody will read this. And out of everything that I'm done, I'm really jump off the window like that.

But two o'clock in the morning, I sent that email, though. And the question I have now is, we all say books change our lives, but we live different reading lives. I wanted to book change the life,

but you really remember from your 20s. - Wow, I remember, there's this book,

“I think I've mentioned it before by a writer”

named Shara called the Killer Angels. And it's about the Civil War Battle of Gettysburg. And it's written, it's fiction. It's written like fiction, historical fiction, but it's very beautifully written.

And I read this book and I just became sast with it. And I had already been a fan of history, but I read this book and I've gone back and read it many times since. And it's just kind of a beautiful,

very accurate account of not only what happened, but the kinds of personalities that were involved. And it just brought what could have been a really dry historical account to life. And I realize you can do that with anything.

Do you know what I mean? Any story can be told in a very dry boring way, or if you've got a really talented writer and storyteller,

they can tell it in an amazing way.

And that book was really powerful for me, really powerful. - See, look, I would say you were able to believe this. This is such a great question, that's such a great answer. My son's birthday is the Gettysburg, is the day that a Gettysburg address.

- Oh, wow. - That's my oldest son's birthday. Don't remember the 19th. - Well, you know, see, it's Gettys Killer Angels. - Gettys Killer Angels, you're gonna read it. It's just a great book.

And if it was just fiction and wasn't about real, how the battle really unfolded, it just filled with amazing characters. It's so well done.

“I think Shara died shortly after he wrote it.”

He died young, but it's just fantastic. - It's going in a library. - Yeah. - I'm putting it in a freedom library. But now on, it's gonna be in a freedom library.

This is a great thing today. - Hey, let me ask you a question. - How did people donate? Is there a way that people can donate to this class? - Yeah, it goes in a website.

Freedom Rees, F-R-E-E-D-O-M, R-E-A-D-S. - Yep, okay. - That whole R-G, and they could donate right at the website. - I think that, I mean, I know, I'm gonna wanna make a donation,

and I'm gonna make David make a donation. (audience laughing) - With your credit card, with your credit card. (audience laughing) - But no, I love what you're doing.

I love your message. I love your energy, your positivity, your sweetness, I mean, you know, you're one of those people. I get despairing sometimes about all the stuff

that's happening in the world, and then I meet someone like you, and I think I think we're gonna be alright. So, but then I go back to drinking. - Oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, oh.

(audience laughing)

- I'm leaving this interview right now,

“and I'm gonna, oh, yeah, ending it on book sniffing.”

- I'm gonna go, I'm gonna end it, so I can get to this, so there's a bookstore just down the street. - Oh, oh, oh, oh. - Put on my, put on my bathrobe and go Russian in there.

- Here, your book sniffing.

- My book sniffing robe, yeah.

(audience laughing) Hey, Rachel, we'll book have you smell it lately? Oh, my. (audience laughing) Well, I don't wanna go into that.

- Let's just say it was about Rachel.

“- It was about Rachel, that's all you need to know.”

- Hey, Rachel, be well, keep doing what you're doing. I hope we get to meet in person some day, 'cause I'd be honored to shake your hand, really. - I will be honored to meet your person. Thank you so much, and everybody else, man.

The whole team has been lovely from the first interview.

- Oh, cool. - It's been amazing. - Well, I gotta let them all go today, but-- (audience laughing)

“- He's getting some AI in here to replace them.”

- All right, take care, Reginald. Bye. - Bye. - Take care, guys. - Conan O'Brien needs a fan.

With Conan O'Brien, Sonom of Session, and Matt Gorley. Produce by me, Matt Gorley. Executive produced by Adam Sachs, Jeff Ross, and Nick Lyoff. Incidental music by Jimi Vivina, take it away, Jimmy. (upbeat music)

Supervising producer Aaron Blair, associate talent producer Jennifer Samples, associate producers Sean Doherty, and Lisa Bern. Engineering by Eduardo Perez. Get three free months of Syrius XM.

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