Why Alex Murdaugh is Getting a Do-Over

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There is still this idea that we have to suffer through it, and I am here to say to anyone

listening, that suffering not only is unnecessary, there's no metal at the end, but it will derail your health. This week, I'm explaining it to me, how to navigate the change before the change. If I knew episodes, Sundays, wherever you get your podcasts, it doesn't matter. If you're talking about the mean dynasty, if you're talking about some family in the

Old Testament, the royal family, the Ford family, dynasties, inevitably fail. Today I'm joined by Wall Street Journal reporter Valerie Borbine.

“She's also the author of a book called The Devil at his elbow, about Alec Murdoch and”

his family. Alec Murdoch was convicted of murdering his wife and son in 2023.

But earlier this year, that conviction was overturned by the South Carolina Supreme Court,

who cited, "shocking jury interference." I started by asking Valerie about the person accused of interfering with the jury. Becky Hill. Becky Hill is the elected or was the elected clerk of court in college and county, South Carolina. That's a town of about, you know, it's county, about 20,000 people, Waltboro, the county

seats, about 5,000 people. She was the clerk of court in this predominantly rural area where the trial was held. There's six weeks back in 2023. Becky is the mayor of the courthouse. She ran the jury.

She ordered lunch for all the personnel. She told the bail of swear to be in win and she kind of also wrangled the media. So she's a person that anyone who was in the courtroom all six weeks and there are many of us who were new well. But the allegations in the Supreme Court of South Carolina found that they were true was

that Becky was just overly familiar with some members of the jury.

“And especially so, you remember those bombshell days when Alec Burdock took the stand.”

And we were all just like, Alec Burdock is taking the stand. It was shocking to hear from a defendant in a high-profile murder case in that way. And a couple of the jury's jurors said that morning, Becky said things like, "List watch how he watches body language." Don't listen to what he says.

But watch how he acts or today's a big day, but be prepared. Things that were just in the end. Previous judges who looked at it said, "Yeah, this was wrong." It's kind of a fool-hardy to say words to that effect, but it didn't affect the outcome of the trial.

But the Supreme Court said, "No, any interference with the jury anyway whatsoever is an error that can't be remedied and he got to do over." How did her involvement come to light? I mean, it was it after the fact that jurors said, "How did this all surface?" Well, it's a funny thing as a person who's written a book about this case to say this,

but it's because Becky, he'll wrote a book about the case. It was called Behind the Doors of Justice, and so the trial ended in March of 23, and she wanted to put her, but she wanted to write a memoir about being, you know, the life of the Court particularly in that high profile proceeding. She put it out pretty quickly in August of 2023, and the defense attorneys, Alex defense

attorneys, namely Dick Arputland and Jim Griffin, got one of it, and drove back down to Walter Burr and started going door to door to talk to jurors and sit, because they were hearing these rumors that jurors weren't happy, and in the end, it really was her undoing one of the former chief justices of the of the South Carolina Supreme Court, said that Becky Hill was lured by the siren call of celebrity to write this book, and in the end, she was

pushing too hard for a guilty verdict, so it's stunning to be having this conversation

I have a hard time believing that Alex Murdoch did not shoot his wife and son. I mean, it feels to me a little shocking that the justice system, I guess this is we want it to work this way, but the actions of one person could completely throw out a conviction which seems in some ways very deserved. You know, it's stunning, and the Supreme Court in a unanimous opinion, they said, "Look, it is the breathtaking and unprecedented actions

of one person that require this due over, but I agree with you. I've spent the homicides of Maggie and Paul Murdoch, we're June 7th, the 2021, so more than five years. So I've spent the better part of five years trying to learn everything I can about what happened that night and what led up to it. Why Alex Murdoch and my view got to the point where he

“was capable and did, in fact, kill his wife and son. So I agree with you. I think the”

state made a very strong case, but in the end, what's so crazy is that Alex Murdoch was

the son of this incredible privilege for generations of incredible privilege and it used to

be the case. People said it all the time, well, the rules don't apply to Alex Murdoch. He can do whatever he wants and did for the better part of 50 years. But in this instance, with a little bit of benefit of time, now that it's been three years since the verdict, I think it came down to the Supreme Court to do the rules not apply to Alex Murdoch, meaning if anyone else in the state with this set of circumstances might have gotten a new trial

should now get one to, even though we think he's a scourge on the legal profession, the and I deeply bad person, the rules have got to apply to everyone here. And I want to talk

“a little bit about what you were just talking about, the dynasty of the Murdoch family.”

How well known were they in Hampton County? And what was their reputation even before this big trial? They were universally known and the low-country these five counties of Southeast and South Carolina for the better part of a hundred years. His great grandfather had founded this law firm in Hampton, this tiny little town in 1910 and then immediately 1920 was elected solicitor, which is the DA for five counties. So for a hundred mile radius, his great

grandfather was the prosecutor in small towns in the South Carolina in those days. For some, it was a sheriff and a part-time deputy and maybe a jailer in Hampton, he lived below the jail, right? That was it. So the District Attorney of the Solister was the finder effect. So he was the detective on homicide scenes and who was right, who was wrong, where

“you drunk when you crash your car or not, that was the power of that person to make, I mean,”

to make Murdoch go away quite frankly. And the family held that office from 1920 up until effectively the time of these homicides. So they just had this immense amount of power to decide right and wrong. And it does it matter. If you're talking about the Ming dynasty, if you're talking about some family in the Old Testament, the royal family, the Ford family, dynasties inevitably fail and they fail on the fourth or the fifth generation, because typically

from inside, the moral rot, it just, it sustains itself, but there's no ethical weight, there anymore. And outside forces, like whether that's your family or other things. And in this case, it was the moral rot from Alec Murdoch, the fourth generation and may rest in peace, Paul Murdoch, the fifth generation. And as well as outside forces, someone finally taking a hard look at what Alec was doing, which was, as it turns out, stealing from his clients and applying

a lot of pressure on him. What's interesting is that each, you know, generation, Patriarch,

that passed on seems to have kind of an incredible story that comes along with them. So what did

you, the first, what did you learn about how Randolph Murdoch senior, who started the law firm, how did he die? Each generation is fascinating in their own right and the levelant in their own right. But what I found out about Randolph Murdoch senior, who was very successful from from the get-go, and then in 1920, was elected solicitor. He was a great athlete, a great scholar, but he, like so many people in that part of the world, lost everything when the banks collapsed. And

that, yeah, I found lots of evidence that he started cutting corners ethically. Every single crime that Alec is convicted of has an echo in every generation. And for him, the most studying

thing I found out was that he had died and kind of this incredible wreck where his old black

the rumor was always that he was coming in from a poker game, crossing the railroad track,

got stuck, and was hit by train. That's true. But I found on these old documents, for he'd signed IOUs, he owed people thousands of dollars that he could never pay back, which huge amount of money in those days. And he, the, he wrote up on the railroad tracks, and when the train is coming dead at him, blowing the whistle, has speed, he links out the window and waves. And the next morning, the corners and quests is held. The corner is a protégé of

“his who he found. The sheriff is a protégé of his. Remember he'd been the solicitor at this”

point, the S1940, so he'd been in power for 20 years. All these people convened and the corner's jury was at that time five white men within a few miles of where it happened, so all people he knew. They heard evidence from the engineer from the conductor. I don't know. He had plenty of time to move. We were blowing the whistle. It was hundreds of yards away. He'd waved at us. They heard all that evidence. And they said it was, it was, it was an accident. And the next thing that happened

was his son, Randolph Murdock Jr, who was also a lawyer, a new lawyer, sued the railroad company, company for wrongful death. And got an immense judgment or record setting judgment at that time that reestablished the family fortune. And so it is no small thing to say that the, that family was founded on fraud. That dynasty was founded on fraud. That goes back to 1940. And then Alex

“grandfather Buster, he was another solicitor, 14 circuit solicitor. He had his own, his own”

game. He was playing, he was a bootlecker in the 1950s. Was he ever caught? Old Buster is what Alex grandfather is called Randolph Murdock Jr. And Old Buster ran the largest bootlegging ring in the south. And he ran it out of the Colitan County Courthouse where we had Alex trial. But yes, he was finally, the feds finally, the Department of Justice came down from Washington and charged Old Buster and about 20 of his legion, including the sheriff, a bunch of deputies with running

this bootlegging ring. And that was in 1955, and they held what they called the trial, the century in Charleston. And in the end, as they're reading the verdicts from the jury, almost every name guilty, guilty, guilty, you get to Buster Murdock, not guilty. And he took over again a

solicitor was never out of office after that. And what's extraordinary is that the feds were

very clear that he had, he had rigged the jury. Isn't it crazy? There's so many echoes in the Alec Murdock story to every generation in the past to me. Before Alec Murdock's murder trial, began, they had to remove portraits of his grandfather from the walls of the courthouse. From the jury box, if you look out to the back of the room, on the big back wall was a portrait of Old Buster Murdock. And he's holding a lit cigar in his hand because he was never without one.

And the judge had it taken down from the wall, so was not to put his thumb on the scale, either way, whether the jurors might love the Murdock dynasty or resented. Alec did not become the 14 circuits listener, like the rest of his family had. But it was clear that he was going to be a lawyer. I mean, they were all going to go in the direction of going to the University of

“South Carolina Law School, becoming lawyers with the firm. What kind of lawyer was Alec?”

Well, you know, and he was always going to be a lawyer. It was never in question. There's a

front page story in the Hampton County Guardian from, I think, when he was five or six, the fourth generation of the, is touring the courthouse today with his father. It was, it was ordained. But he was the type of lawyer who was, because practice personal injury law was the bread and butter of that practice. He did a lot of bad truck wrecks. He brought a lot of coolers of stakes out to the highway patrol offices to if there, you know, if something comes

up, here's my card, that kind of stuff. And he was very successful partly because he was a bit of a bully. And he was known for getting good results out of insurance companies, partly by wielding his name and his physical size. He was six foot four. He's about two, 60, at his, at his, at his height, at the height of his weight. So he was an imposing person in many regards. This is around 2005 that he, he starts, yes, that all starts to crumb. He, he starts to steal money

as you say from the, how was he doing it? What, what did he do? And it, it does start around 2005. So he was kind of, you know, on the cusp of 40, he was, he had a beautiful wife Maggie and young sons. He was kind of, he was established in his law firm. He also got way out of her skis in the real

to be bigger and grander than all of them. And he has his sights on, on doing that. And he got,

he was way over invested in millions of dollars in real estate loans with no money down and guess what, uh, the market crashed. So around 2005, 2006, he's starting things are starting to get a little bit lean. And there was also a change in South Carolina law, which affected his law practice. It made a lot harder to, to get big verdicts. He was the, the money machine that he had been able to kind of perpetuate pretty easily for a long time was starting to, to trip up just when

he needed more money. And a young woman, um, a lady of pliler, a girl who had lost her mother

“and her brother and a terrible Ford Explorer roll over wreck. You remember those, um, on, on, on”

95 in the summer that was one of the, the big, um, the bread and butter of the Murdoch firm were handling

this types of cases. They were very good at it. She and her sister survived and, and came to elk. And I mean, quite frankly, and there's been federal lawsuits around this and he has pleaded guilty to it. He, he saw an easy mark. And he robbed those girls who were 12 and 10. He robbed them over the course of years, millions of dollars. And, and, and, and, and when it came time to try to pay back them, he had another sadly terribly easy mark, a young man named Hacking Pinky, who was a,

who was a, who was a quadriplegic, a deaf quadriplegic teenager who had been also injured in a terrible roll over wreck on 95, robbed him, his mother, and then when Hacking died in an, in an nursing home, he found a wrongful destitute and took even more money from that family. So, he just started robbing his personal injury clients of lots of money over the course of a decade. He built up such, he was so honored to suffering. He was so willing to do these things that are just so depraved,

sitting next to someone's hospital bed, patting their hair, holding their hand. I'm gonna go back to my office and I'm gonna get you a lot of money. Getting back to his office and stealing their money, robbing them blind. Doing that over the course of a decade or more,

to the tune of $10 million or so, I think it had nerd him to a human feeling and made him

capable of being the kind of person that could commit physical violence as well as more violence. We'll be right back. Support for criminal comes from growth therapy. If you've refined yourself feeling down this season, you're not alone. In fact, a lot of people start therapy during the summer months. Help is within reach in the form of growth therapy. Grow connects you with thousands of high

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by state and insurance plan. Support for the show comes from Odo. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder with it doesn't different apps that don't talk to each other. Introducing Odo. It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all-in-one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier. CRM, accounting, inventory, e-commerce, and more. And the best part,

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of businesses have made the switch. So why not you? Try Odo for free at Odo.com. That's OdoO.com. Alec Murdoch was able to keep the stealing this fraud a pretty well secret until right after 2019 when his son Paul Murdoch crashed a boat which had terrible consequences. Let's just talk a little bit about Paul Murdoch and what happened with the crash. Paul was 19 years old. He was a new student at USC in Columbia, but he often came home to Mosell. His happy place was outdoors with his friends

from high school, hunting, riding around on a four-wheeler drink and beer, that kind of thing. So he was home. Mosell is the estate, the biggest estate that Alec Murdoch had just.

just a massive expanse of land. But no Paul was 19 and he had been, I talked to family

“friends, family babysitters. He was sneaking beers out of the fridge when he was low single”

digits, right? He was a trouble maker and his parents were laugh at it. He was a very lovable, funny, hyper kid. He was still alive for the party. I guess you could say, but he also was very troubled and he was drinking copious amounts of alcohol and driving boats, trucks and had multiple wrecks leading up to February 2019. And that's when his friends, his two guy, best friends, and their girlfriends, three couples went out on a boat to go to an oyster roast

and beef for the family. He has a kind of a, I guess, a late property down there and they were

going to stay at the cabin and then go up to on a boat and go to the oyster roast and come back.

And there were a lot of DUI checkpoints out that night and they were all under age at that time. And knew they were going to be drinking. I mean, Paul was doing beer bongs before he ever got in the boat. They're coming back on this boat and it's in, you know, shivering and he keeps driving in circles or messing around rather than driving back to the house and then stops in downtown Beaufort to get a couple of shots. And he drinks even more. And so then everybody's really mad and, and, and fussing

in each other, give me the keys. I'm not, you know, but he also has driving my effing boat that kind of stuff. It's really harrowing to read the affidavits on here. The other people in the boat talk about it, it's rinsing. But he was, he got really, really angry and he had stripped down to his boxers and kind of transformed into what his friends called his alter ego of Timmy, this angry call and that slams the throttle and the boat kind of planes off at 28, 29 miles an hour and

carines into a bridge. And three of the young people on the boat were thrown off and three weren't and one of them didn't surface and that was Mallory Beach, 19 year old Mallory Beach.

They couldn't find her. And that was that wreck and then ultimately when they found her body a week

later, the family was devastated and found a wrongful desolate against Alec personally, because he owned the boat and, and then, and then, and then against, you know, Maggie Murdock Paul was using her credit card to buy a bunch of alcohol that night illegally. And, and it, and it, and a wrongful desolate and Alec knew it better than anybody's personal injury lawyer. That risk opening up his assets to examination. Like, well, this is a money, there will be money damages here.

How much money do you have? Show me your accounts. And he knew that the world would come to an end if that had happened and he needed to stay without off. So that to me, the the prosecution argued and I accept their argument that that was the beginning of the end of of Alec Murdock. Mallory's family hires a lawyer in his name's Mark Tinsley. So what does Mark Tinsley find out once he starts kind of going into the Murdock finances? Mark was a lawyer in the firm,

in the neighboring county of Ale and Dale, but he was very close to the Murdock law firm. He had a

“a key card to badge in now that he worked with them so much. He could badge in and out of their building.”

He knew Alec really well. He had a beach house down the beach for a while from the Murdock's and and went on the boat with them. He knew him really well. So when the beach family hired him, Mark had suspicions that Alec was was something was fishy with the finance. So something was going on. They had somewhat of a falling out over a case and he took the case and he is is tenacious and and it cost him his friendships. It cost him a lot of relationships

down there, but he was going to advocate for his client at all costs and he did. He could just kept the pressure on Alec. He kept supporting things over the course of years trying to make life difficult with Alec so he would settle this case and in the end there was a he was pushing so hard and his his his partners his friends were saying hey like this we're among friends here and this he's going to pay out but don't be so rough on him because no, something's really wrong here.

And so he was he was he was applying so much pressure to turn over the financial information. There was a big hearing coming up on it 2 years after emailing his death. June 10th of 2021 Alec was going to have to turn over some of his bank data that day and after having resisted it for the better part of two years and that was June 10th of 2021 and the homicide's happened

“June 7th of 2021 and the prosecutor you should argue it successfully that was no accident.”

On June 7th, 2021 Alec's murder called 911 and says that his wife and son have been shot.

this there's this is horrible my wife and so our day lives somebody shot them.

“My son was involved in a boat wreck some years back. I know that's what it is.”

From the immediate from his first interactions with the officer and then consistently in later interactions

with officials he blames the boat wreck. Somebody something he's been getting a lot of threats online. People are mad at him. I know it has something to do with Mallory's death and in truth people were very angry at Paul in Hampton and at Alec and they felt like the beaches who also in a small town everybody knows everybody they felt like they've been wronged. So so there was some truth the fact that Paul was getting some bullying but there was no truth of the fact that had anything to do with the

boat wreck and the way that Alec said and in pretty quickly within a matter of days if not ours all the young people on the boat and their parents took DNA swabs and had their allies confirmed just to prove that they weren't that they weren't involved. And the fact that his wife and son

“had been killed on June 7th and he was expected to turn over documents on June 10th.”

But would that have delayed that process? Yes. And a couple of things happened on June 7th. He's at the office preparing those documents, right? But he's also simultaneously confronted by the CFO of his law firm who he'd known since high school. She's pretty tough and pretty tough pretty smart woman confronts them that afternoon about a different missing amount of money. A $792,000 fee that he says is as at another law firm it is not there. She's she's got strong suspicions and some

evidence that he's taken this money. She confronts them that afternoon and within minutes of that

he gets a call ostensibly from his brother saying that their father ran off Murdoch with third

his protector. His his his who was still partner at the law firm was dying. He had been ill for some time and this was the end. And what happened was within minutes of the confrontation and the phone call. He's texting and calling Maggie and Paul and asking them to come home that night. They were both planning to spend the night out of town. Paul was living with his uncle about an hour away. Maggie was spending most of her time at their beach house down at Edisto, also an hour away.

He asked them both to come home. When they weren't expecting to and Maggie kind of reluctantly agrees we have the benefit of her text messages and some some testimony from her sister. She didn't want to go but she went because she felt bad for Alec losing his dad. So they go they're killed. And what happens? His problems disappear. Right. The June 10th hearing is postponed probably and definitely Mark Tensley calls the beach family and says.

So sorry to tell you this, the case against Alec is over. No one is going to find a verdict. Financial verdict against him when he's just gone through this loss of his wife and son. So and then he the CFO stopped asking about that missing money and didn't ask for it for a matter of months and in that in that summer of 2021. Guess what? He was able to raise that money and and create an up-subterviews to to call off the dogs for a little while. So the prosecution argued

successfully that what he tried to do as hard as it is to wrap your mind around it. He killed Maggie and Paul to create distraction and boss and time to fix his fraying world. Investigators, you know, while he might be fixing his financial mess, investigators are still trying to figure out what happened to Maggie and Paul over that summer. And then on Labor Day weekend, Alec Murdoch calls 911 again. What does he say happened? So Alec Murdoch over that Saturday of Labor Day

weekend calls 911 and says he's on the side of the road. He had a flat tire. He was trying to change to flat tire and somebody came along and shot him in a drive by shooting and he was badly injured. And that's shocking, right? I mean, I drive by shooting Alec Murdoch. The family goes into a panic. They're like, see someone tried to kill Maggie. Somebody killed Maggie and Paul now they're trying to kill Alec. There's something to help us. Something's really scary happening. So he says

“that he was shot and a drive by shooting. But that story very quickly unraveled. What actually happened?”

There is some dispute about what actually happened on the side of the road. And we may hear food cousin Eddie, the person involved in that altercation during the next trial. But what happened was that day before the Friday before Labor Day, the CFO, the law firm, and it means Genie Secondary,

had found pretty significant proof that Alec had not only stolen that first tranche of money,

but multiple other amounts of money were missing. So that Friday, his law partners call him in and confront him, including his brother, his older brother. You got, you can't practice law with us anymore.

it took you so long. And he asked to keep his health insurance. And so he can go to rehab and they

say, no, you're out, you're gone. And then he meets up with cousin Eddie who's Curtis Eddie Smith, who was a cousin back through the Murdoch line of family. And that's his drug dealer. That's the person who was selling him pills and doing odd jobs for him. He was a former client of his disability client. He meets up with cousin Eddie. Cousin Eddie says and has said this multiple times that he followed Alec out to the side of the old sack of hatchy roaks. He had something he needed to do for him.

Alec gets out of the truck out of his Mercedes, Maggie's Mercedes with a, with a gun. They struggle over the gun and it goes off. And Curtis Smith takes the gun and leaves. And Alec that's when he calls 911 says he's been shot and dropped by shooting. There's there is significant amount of dispute. And there is evidence that Alec Murdoch who's a big guy, strong guy, Eddie who's a

“slight person who's on disability. That's how he knew Alec. That Alec was trying to actually”

set Eddie up, maybe kill Eddie and blame him for the homicides at Mozilla. And the reason I say that is cousin court filings, Alec's lawyer said that Eddie was the real killer. He was the one that killed him. So there's, there's real dispute about what happened on the side of the road. But what did not happen is that it was not a drop by shooting. Like Alec said. Alec is eventually indicted for fraud. And then later on for two counts of homicide for Maggie and Paul's murders.

Yeah. We talked about the prosecutions case against him, which was he did this because he was hoping everything would go away if Maggie and Paul were gone. Were you, you were there for the trial. And we talked about how Alec took the stand. Were you surprised that the jury did decide that he was guilty. What was the feeling when the jury went out in the courtroom? Yeah. I mean, yes, I was surprised. It is a really, it is a circumstantial case. And there's missing the gun,

the murder weapon is missing, which was a sticking point with the jury. The reason that the prosecution, and they will tell you this, the reason they were able to bring the case at

all was the Kindle video, right? That video, Alec had said he was never down at the Kindle,

he wasn't down there, they went down by themselves. And at that, which is where Maggie and Paul were found? Was that the dog kennel? Correct. They were down at the dog kennels, which is a 300 yards from the main house at Mozilla. And Alec said he stayed up at the house

“and then went over to visit his mother, who was sick. That's what he said. And that was his”

alibi for a long, long time. Until in March of 22, so nine months or so after the homicides, police were finally able to open Paul Murdoch's phone. It had been locked, there he doesn't back it up to the cloud, nobody knew his passcode. So they didn't want to blow the opportunity to open the phones, they didn't try his birth date for nine months. But when they did, the phone opened immediately and one of the first things and the first thing they see

in the camera role is a video that Paul Murdoch took at the kennels moments before he was killed. And you can hear Alec's voice clearly in the background. He's clearly down there. So that was the piece of evidence that allowed the state to bring the case at all. That piece of evidence is the reason that Alec testified because he felt like he had to confront the reason. He was the only person that could explain why he lied about being down there. Those two things were the best

in the jury will tell you were the two most important pieces of information that video and then

also his testimony were the most important. What are people in South Carolina saying about the Alec's conviction being overturned? Well, and you know, I should mention that it was unanimous guilty, but for the fact, and I should say this, there was one juror who was excused on that last day. The day of closing arguments between Creighton Waters, the prosecution's closing argument and the defenses. She was kicked off the jury on the last day. Judge Newman found evidence based on

an email he received and some interviews with tenants of a property she owned that she'd been talking out of school about the case. And I mentioned that because she wrote it in her book, which is called Enough is Enough. She said that she was not convinced that he did it. And she says now that

“she would have been a not guilty vote. So I think that the defense saw her as their best chance for”

strong voice in the back in the room. And she was the one who was kicked off. She alleges in court filings and in her book that she was intentionally kicked off and part by Becky Hill. And that that is being litigated and will be litigated in the coming months and in year. So people are really split about this. They're split and they're also, there's just a little bit of sadness because Becky Hill is, I like her personally. I think many of us do who know her and knew her in that context.

due over this big trial. If you'd said in the spring of 23, we're going to have a new trial,

“I think it would have been an uproar. But I think enough time has passed and there's been so much”

there just, you know, kind of a daily drum being almost of the drama in this case related to the

court proceeding. There's not that sense of outrage so much as I can't believe we're going to have to pay

for this again. You know, tax dollars to prosecute again. But we will. Well, thank you for doing this. Thank you for having me. Valerie Borline's book is called The Devil at Iselbo. You can find a link

to it in our show notes. If you'd like to watch the video of this interview and all our other

video interviews, follow us at youtube.com/criminalpodcast or just click the link in our show notes. I'm Phoebe Judge. Thanks for listening. , thank you for watching.

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