"Pitocin Gave My Daughter Brain Damage": The Risks Moms Should Know | Katie Spinks

and ended up with a baby who was severely brain damaged.

“What were you given during that labor that you blamed for this?”

- Paterson, my dose was entirely too high and there was no reason for it. Most women are not told about the risks. For the mom, there's a risk of postpartum hemorrhage, uterine rupture, contractions that are too close together

to frequent, to strong for the baby seizures. The biggest risk is the contractions. The uterus is on overload, just contracting, contracting, contracting, strong, strong, strong, and the baby goes into distress

because they're being cut and cut and cut and they just, they can't take it anymore. I felt a literal explosion in my abdomen. She said, "You're being dramatic. You're going to scare the other women down the hall

because you are screaming so loud." (upbeat music) (gentle music) - Paterson is one of the most commonly used drugs in American labor rooms,

given a nearly half of birthing mothers.

And yet many women are never fully told

that it's a powerful synthetic hormone designed to intensify contractions beyond what the body might naturally do. When those contractions become too strong or too frequent, they can reduce oxygen to a baby, trigger, fetal distress,

and in devastating cases, lead to permanent brain injury. This is what happened to Katie Spinks. While Paterson can be life-saving, when carefully managed, true and form consent means understanding not just the benefits,

but the real risks of uterine hyperslimulation. 30% of inductions leading to sea sections, oxygen deprivation, and the narrow margin for error when the monitoring fails. Most of the time it's managed safely,

but when it's not, the consequences can be permanent. We're talking about what happens when an elective induction turns into a cascade of interventions in a life that will never be the same.

Watch this episode on the real Alex Clark YouTube channel or culture of Pat the Carry on Spotify. Make sure you leave a five-star review for this mom who is bravely sharing her story. Please welcome Katie Spinks to Culture of Pat the Carry.

(dramatic music) Before Jolene, how many children did you have? - I had three children.

“- Okay, so you had three kids and what were their ages?”

- One was 10, I think one was eight. And one was two. - Okay. - I am not good with that. - That's fine, I know, it's been a while. - It's like talking to you when they were born.

But I'm like, hold on, how old were they in that year? - Yes, what were those pregnancies like? Were there any complications? Were there any risks? Or were they pretty typical births very smooth?

- They were great. I had beautiful pregnancies, great births. They were all vaginal births.

I never had any issues at all.

And they were hospital births. - Yes. - And so when you had Jolene, did you go to the same hospital? - I went to the same hospital that I had my third and second childing.

- Was it the same doctor, nurses? - No, everybody was completely different. - Okay, everybody was different. How many children did you picture yourself having before Jolene?

- Six or seven? - So you wanted a big family. - Yes, I did. - This was always your dream. - Yes, ever since I was a kid.

- Where was your husband on this? This idea of having like a lot of kids? - Oh, he just does whatever I want to do. (laughing) He'll pretend like he doesn't.

But if I say, "Hey, let's do this." Let's, I want that. He's like, "Okay." - Had you guys ever talked about, you know,

“what would happen if we ever had a special needs child?”

Did you ever walk through anything like that? - No, never.

I never would have ever imagined this would ever happen.

I would have never pictured myself having one because I was healthy. My family line was pretty healthy, so I never expected anything to happen. - Jolene was not going to complete your family.

Like you weren't gonna stop after her. You had plans to have more children after her. - Yes. - During your pregnancy with Jolene, were you told that you were high risk at all?

- No, her pregnancy was beautiful. I worked out into the day I had her. Like it was enjoyable. I loved it. I loved every second of it.

I was low risk. I missed like half my doctor appointments in the second and third tribe of the circus. I was just so healthy that I was like, "I don't really need to go," you know, like,

I never had any issues. - There were no concerns Dr. didn't have concerns. - None, absolutely none. - Looking back where there are any red flags, medical complications, anything.

- Before the birth, no. I did have some really strong intuitions on the way to the hospital. Like it's hard to explain. I felt like a really dark energy.

I just didn't feel right, but everybody kept saying, "Well, you're getting ready to have your fourth trial." That's a lot to adjust to, you know, you have a little one at home.

It's just nerves and I just kept feeling like, something just doesn't feel right today. I just, I don't feel right. But I never, you know what I mean? Like I was healthy, we were all healthy.

She was healthy. So I figured, okay, they're right. It's just nerves. - Were you voicing these concerns to your husband on the way to the hospital?

- Well, I think he felt the exact same way. - Really? - Yeah, it was very strange. We both, we woke up late because I was being induced, so it's scheduled.

We just neither of us wanted to go,

“which was weird because when we had our third child,”

we were like, "Yes, I can't wait. "It was a family affair. "Everybody was there. "It was literally a family affair. "Where is when I had Jolene?

"It was just me and him." And it just, it just didn't feel right. Didn't feel right at all. You walked into that hospital, expecting a healthy baby.

And ended up with a baby who was severely brain damaged. What were you given during that labor that you blamed for this? - Potosan. - Isn't that a routine drug

that almost every single mother in America is given when she's induced? - You know what it is? But so is oxy cotton and morphine and all that after surgeries?

There's a lot of routine meds, but the differences is how the doctors use them. Are they using them per standards and protocol? Or are they going above and beyond just trying to, you know, in and out and out?

And that's where the issue felt with me as my dose was entirely too high and there was no reason for it. If I had had like preeclampsia or seizures or significantly high blood pressure,

then the dose I had was probably appropriate, but it just wasn't appropriate for me. It was way too high. - And maybe I'm getting ahead of myself but why did they give you such a high dose?

Did they give you a reason? - No.

They never, they were telling me anything

but I just trusted them 'cause their doctors and nurses, you know, like, were bread and vorn to just trust these people who have a degree. So I did just that.

I didn't question anything. I was like, okay, if you say so, then that's fine.

“- Why was induction originally suggested for this birth?”

- There's such thing as called elective induction. That's where a mother will be induced just because she wants to. There's no medical reason behind it. So 39 week inductions are encouraged in the US

just because they say based off of a flawed study called the arrive trial. The trial proved that 39 week inductions were safer for the mom and the baby than to go past term. And to have a baby, the thing is with this study,

it was flawed. Most of the hospitals that were asked to participate did not participate. The moms who were actually in the studies, that the doctors went above and beyond to make sure

that their inductions went smoothly and ended in vaginal birth. And that just doesn't happen in the real world. Doctors aren't at your feet, the entire time you're there. They're usually off seeing other patients or wherever.

So it's this study that was done. I think I want to say it was 2019 that proved that. So doctors are encouraging these elective inductions to keep you and your baby safe. But they're not explaining it thoroughly.

Oh, this is what the study found. But it also wasn't the only study. There's a lot of studies for everything.

“And it really depends on which study you're pulling.”

That can back your narrative. Because I could pull other studies right now that shows that inductions are not safe. Whereas if you look at the arrive trial, it says inductions are safer than post dates or term deliveries.

What is the reasoning that they say that 39 week inductions are supposed to be so much better than just taking your baby to term? Because they say that it's full term, the placenta starts to die after 39 weeks,

and your baby has a significant risk of still birth. And there's no signs to back that up, actually. Just the studies that they did. There's a lot that were flawed. I had a lot of misinformation in it.

So they were just telling you, hey, 39 weeks, if you haven't had that baby, yeah, we should just go ahead and induce and you just trusted them. And so that's kind of how you got to this point.

I went with it because I had had inductions prior that they were fine. I never thought twice. I was just like, okay, if you say so, if you think this is safe and you're thinking about me and my baby,

then, okay, let's do it. What were the reasons for the other inductions with your other children? From my first order, I was past do and I wasn't school. So they did it, so I could be on break from school

and then go back at the time when she could go to daycare. And my son, who was my second child, I was working. So, you know, the culture is you have your baby and you have to go right back to work.

So I had to schedule my birth, so I could plan when to go back to work. And then my third one, I'd already had some, so I was like, you know, why not? Why not just do it?

They went fine, let's just do it again. I've got other kids at home, that way I can plan for a babysitter. You know, I won't be going into labor when my husband is at work.

We can just plan this all out. - Did you feel like you had a real choice with this induction with Joleen? - That's hard to say, because I was so for the induction,

I never asked for anything else.

I wasn't like, oh, what happens if I don't? If I say, no, what's gonna happen? If I wait till this date, what's gonna happen? I was just very, I've done it before, so why not? You know, I was very, I just trusted them.

Everything they said and did, like, everything. - Did anyone at any point ever explain the difference between waiting and inducing? - Never. I had never been explained the difference

between waiting and induction until I started digging and when I became a dual on a child birth educator, I learned the difference in how much a week or even two weeks really does make and what inductions really can do

to not only your body, but your baby's body. - What did you find out? Like, what happens in those couple weeks? - Nothing, you gave your baby more time to grow. They make it seem like everybody's baby dies,

to grow and to nourish the baby

“and to get healthy, you know, like where the baby needs to be”

in order to be born, rather than just forcing the mom's body and to labor and same with the mom's body. If the body isn't ready, it's not gonna go good, but if the body is ready, the cervix is dilated and nice and soft and, you know,

maybe even contractions have already started, then it's a little bit safer than just forcing the body into labor when it's just not ready. - Yeah, it almost seems like labor and delivery in the United States is treated like everything

is always an emergency and it's something that's unnatural,

right, it seems to me like we over-medicalize it and we act like women's bodies don't instinctually know what you do. - Yes, absolutely, you're right. Doctors are convincing women,

their bodies don't know how to go into labor and that if they wait past 40 or even 41 weeks, their babies will die. There are so many women who truly believe that. They think that they're baby will die.

And it's just like this is sad. This is what doctors are convincing women that's going on with their bodies. They're convincing them the babies are gonna die when really your baby's just getting an extra week

or two of nutrients like you want your baby's lungs to be nice and healthy. The brain to be nice and healthy. The skin, all the organs and the more time you give them, the better it is, you know, for a healthy woman,

if a woman has like pre-eclampsia or high blood pressure, you know, anything like that obviously, then it turns a little bit because then induction is probably safer for her. But it's still not let's just give her all this potatoes

and walk away and leave her for 12 hours. You know, like there, there's a difference between having an induction with a good team and having an induction with a bad team. And you had a bad team.

Oh, absolutely. Bad isn't even the way to describe them.

Like, I have never seen a nurse behave in such a manner

that my nurse did. And it just is soon as we started going and as soon as my rupture happened and she reacted like she had no clue what she was doing. I knew that things were not going to go good from their forward.

When you were told that you were going to be inducing,

“did you know that Petosin was going to be involved?”

Yes. And what sorts of risks or side effects are things that they walk you through? Absolutely none. Is that typical from my experience, from my clients,

and my friends and everything? Absolutely. Yes, most women are not told about the risks. There was a study done, like a cohort study that found I want to say is between 40 and 60% of women are not informed.

They don't feel like they are part of their child's birth in regard to decision-making. They feel like their doctors just did things, didn't explain anything. And they just sat there like a guinea pig.

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You know, when water had nutrients. What risks or side effects are associated with pitocin? Okay, so these risks, you can find right on a pitocin label. For the mom, there's a risk of postpartum hemorrhage, uterine rupture, nausea contractions that are too close together

to frequent, too strong for the baby in small cases when women have had seizures. The biggest risk is that contractions. It makes contractions way too strong, too close together, too frequent. And then when a woman contracts normally, like naturally,

they don't get as much oxygen, while the woman is contracting, but with a normal contraction, it's not enough to affect them. But when you have oxytocin, which is what our body is naturally produce,

just contracting, contracting, contracting, strong, strong, strong. And the baby goes into distress because they're being cut and cut and cut and they just, they can't take it anymore. So the uterine patterns are the biggest risk for mom into the baby, it's the fetal distress because of the contractions.

“So when you're in labor, when does it shift from routine to really dangerous?”

So for me, everything was really routine. I want to say the first like eight hours. Everything was totally fine. And then towards the end, my uterus ruptured, and I felt a literal explosion in my abdomen, like it felt like something went off inside of me.

And I was telling my nurse, like, this isn't right, this isn't right. Like, I'm not having contractions anymore. Something is wrong inside of me. Like, I kept begging her and pleading with her to just check me to call somebody to do something.

And she kept saying, well, our doctors are doing sea sections right now. Like, I'm the only person here that can help you. And I don't know how to deliver a baby. You're just having pain because you're fully dilated. And I'm like, that is, I'm telling you that's not what it is.

So it shifted probably about eight, nine hours in. We're your contractions different once Potosan started. So I wasn't contracting when I walked in. I, my body was not ready yet. I was only a finger dilated.

So a centimeter dilated and I just wasn't ready. So, but when they did start the Potosan, you know, like, I could feel the contractions. I felt them coming and going, they felt normal. Like, I had felt before, but then when the rupture happened,

I stopped feeling them and I felt this constant horrific pain in my abdomen. So I want to scale a one to 10, 10 being the worst pain you've ever felt.

What was this like in a million?

It was the worst pain I've ever felt in my life. And they were dismissing you saying you're just having normal contractions. She used the word dramatic. She said, you're being dramatic. You're going to scare the other women down the hall because you are screaming so

loud. I'm like, yes, I'm screaming this loud because I, I'm in agony. Like at this point, I can't sit still. I'm just sobbing like my husband's trying to walk in and out. He's like, can somebody do something because this didn't happen last time we are here.

Like, she, you know, she was upset because the contractions hurt, but she was not like this. And it just nobody cared. What is it like in that moment when you know something medically is so wrong as you're in the middle of labor and the nurses and the medical staff around you are

gaslighting you and telling you that you're being dramatic? It was the worst feeling I've ever felt in my life. The absolute worst, I was terrified because that dark feeling that I had going to the hospital, it came back and this time I felt like I was going to die. Like I kept telling my husband, I was like, if I die, please just make sure the kids know

that like I love them. I'm pleading all of my last words because I felt like I was going to die. I literally felt it. It was terrifying, sitting there in a hospital bed with doctors and nurses and you're like, please help and they keep saying, you're dramatic.

It's fine. It's a horrible feeling, horrible. Anyone explained how the dosage was being increased with the pitocin? No, nobody explained it. They didn't tell me how it's supposed to happen, how it should happen, why it's happening

at that rate. They just did it. What is this word?

“Tashis, as tall, what if I think it's tacky sisterly?”

It's where the uterus is contracting too strong, too close together. The contractions are not normal, they're not natural. They're just like bam, bam, bam, one right after the next and they're really strong. They're lasting a long time, they're not letting up. And then when you do get a break, it goes right back into it.

So did anyone use that word with you? No. Were you told, hey, when you take pitocin, contractions can become really strong, they can get too close together? They did say it could make the contractions more painful.

That's it. That it could just make contractions more painful.

I was never given any risks or told really anything bad that can happen because I was so

low risk. The doctors are like, you're still healthy, like this is going to go great. You're going to be in and out in less than 12 hours and I'm thinking, hey, I like, you know, I like that. I've got three other kids at home.

I just want to go back home. So I was totally fine with it. I never thought, let me ask, what are the risks? How often do they happen? What happens if you don't do that?

Are there any other options? What happens if we just wait? You know, like, I didn't ask anything. All these questions that pop in my head now think I should have, I should have done all these things.

I should have asked all these questions. But then, on the other hand, their doctors and nurses were supposed to trust them to do the right thing.

I never met a million years, what I thought that this could happen ever.

Did they give you an epidural when you were screaming in pain? No, I was getting IV pain medicine because I didn't want the epidural. I'd had one last time and the last time and it just didn't work, so I just didn't want to do it. They kept saying, let's just, let's give you an epidural.

Let's do this. Let's do that. But I'm in so much agony.

“I know there's no way I can sit still for the epidural because you have to be still for”

the epidural and I knew I couldn't, like, I was just wiggling everywhere because I wasn't

So at any point did they stop and say, okay, something is wrong. We can tell this is not going normally.

“Maybe we need to look into what's going on here.”

No, they never did. Not once. I begged for them to. I begged for somebody to do something. I even sat there and telling nurse, I was like, just give me a c-section, like, if you

give me instruments, I will just cut this baby out right now. Like, I wasn't so much pain. I felt like I could have done it at that point. Nobody thought to ask or to do anything, no matter what, they just kept saying, this is normal.

This is normal. Well, the baby's in you. So then what happens next? For her, my rupture started small. So she was okay.

Because once the uterus ruptures, it cuts the oncoming oxygen to the baby. All they have is what's in the cord. But there is a difference in ruptures. You can have like a small spot, starts real small, and then it grows if it's not taken care of and enough time.

And that's what mine was.

“Mine started real small, one little localized spot, and then it grew because it went on”

for so long.

So at first she was okay, you know, didn't really bother her.

You see her heart rate fluctuate a little bit, but nothing to be concerned about. It wasn't until the doctor came in and made me start to push. You cannot push with uterine ruptures. You just can't. It's not, it's not going to happen.

But she decided I needed to push anyway. And at that moment is when it went from a small hole to a complete tear. And then that's when her oxygen was cut and all she had was just what was in her cord. And it wasn't long, it was like 12, 13 minutes maybe before she was okay. And then she went down to 40s and 60s.

And that's deadly. At that rate, most babies don't survive. So at that point, they tried to use the vacuum three times to pull her out of me. And each time the vacuum would pop off her head and then she would just go like flying back into me.

And I was passing out in between each time. They would use this vacuum.

And the third time I passed out, I just didn't wake back up.

They were like sticking the salts up my nose and trying so hard to wake me up. But I wouldn't because the pain was so bad. No, I was internally bleeding as well because of Jolene's position. It was blocking everything. So it didn't expel out of me.

It just backed up into my abdomen. So I had lost so much blood that I passed out. And at that point, my husband said they still like they weren't rushing. Like there is a difference between a stat C section and an emergency one. I should have been like stat running right now.

He said that they were just like casually collecting everything and just wheeling back. They got him dressed in the bunny suit. They thought this was going to be a normal C section. Mind you, after I had already passed out. And her heart rate was between 40 and 60.

But I guess once they decided that when they opened me up in the blood, just started pouring out, it's not normal at this point. The blood was pouring out of you. Yes, because once they opened me up, since she was closer down in my pelvis and the blood was backing up in me and they cut me open, it just went to over like a waterfall.

So then what were they saying at that point? I don't know. I was under general anesthesia. They wouldn't let him in. Oh, your husband wasn't in there.

They wouldn't allow him in. I guess once they realized how serious it was and the fact that I had to go under general anesthesia, they knew at that point, you know, maybe I wasn't lying. Something a little bit more serious, probably happening. So then G-thing at that point, they were thinking, "Okay, this is like a fetal distress

scenario." I don't know what they were thinking. I still wonder to this day. What were you guys thinking? Like, did you just not care?

Because if you look, like I have my fetal strips, you know, the little line that prints off that shows the contractions and the baby's heart rate, if you look at it, you can see the moment my contractions change from the normal, beautiful little hills to really wonky patterns that align with my high blood pressure and the fact that I said something was wrong.

“When they got the baby out of you, what did they notice about G-thing?”

Oh, she had no pulse, she wasn't breathing, she was born, she wasn't alive. So the NICU doctor in there did a bunch of rounds of CPR, I've been referring, um, and biblical lines and started cooling her because therapeutic hypothermia is shown to significantly decrease the spread of brain damage and in babies. So he had to work on her while my team was working on me.

So I guess it was somewhere in that room at that point, somebody had to have realized it, they just didn't tell us anything. We were told nothing. Do you believe that this was preventable? Oh, absolutely.

It was 100% preventable. They were going to use Potosan, they could have kept my dose at six or eight, not so totally healthy rate. It gives a mom time to relax. It's not a crazy dose, but they had me at 15 and the max dose is supposed to be 20.

So at almost 20, something she should have clicked with her head, you know?

So it was, first of all, the rupture could have been preventable, had they not given

me high doses of Potosan and my daughter could have walked away without brain damage, had they listened to me the first time I said something doesn't feel right. And they listened then and just on ultrasound, they would have been like, oh, wow, she's internally bleeding. We got to go.

And she could have been safe. Do you think if somebody would have said to you, hey, this medication can cause permanent injury if mismanaged, do you think that you would have still been like, okay, I'm glad you told me, I'm still going to agree or do you think you would have been like, oh, no.

I would have been like, you know what, I'm going to wait a little bit longer.

“I just have to assume that's what I would say.”

Thinking back now, if somebody had told me your baby could suffer severe brain damage or have a seizures or die or you could die, your uterus could rupture anything. I would have been like, no, you know, it's not necessary. My induction was elective. It wasn't necessary.

So I could have been like, let's just push it off another week and give me more time to look it up and read about it before I say yes. What did Jilline end up getting diagnosed with? Okay, so there's a long list. Her main diagnosis is HIE, which stands for hypoxic ischemic and cephalopathy.

And from that, she has cerebral palsy. She has epilepsy. She cannot suck or swallow. She strictly YouTube vet, YouTube is a feeding tube that goes into the stomach. She has a CBI, which is just a vision impairment. She doesn't see much out of her left eye.

Her right eye is her stronger eye. She has hyprotonia and hypotonia. So she can't crawl or walk and doing any sort of exercises like sitting, being on her belly, having to lift her head, things like that. It's really hard for her because her muscles are working against each other.

So where is like if we stand, our whole body is going to work for us. Her top half will be much looser and her bottom half will be a lot tighter so it's harder for her. So she has like all the main characteristics and diagnosis of a child with HIE. I say something mildly unsettling.

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Not in person, but I have online. There's a lot of them. A lot. What are some of the things that you've heard? The main thing that we all have in common was that we had a negligent medical team.

That is the main thing. And then the second main thing that I see is it was an induction that was mismanaged and went wrong. That is probably about 80% of the stories that I find. Can a woman revoke consent once labor has started?

That's a tricky question because yes, it's your body, your baby, you technically can do whatever you want.

“If you want to take out your IV and go home because you don't want to be there anymore,”

you can. It becomes tricky because if your water is broken, then you do have an increased risk for infection. It's not like immediate. If they break your water and they're doing this induction, you just said, I don't want

to do this anymore.

And you go home and then you just never can track or go into labor on your own.

You're putting yourself in your baby at risk. So it's kind of tricky. If you get there sign in, they start the betosa and then you decide, you know what? I don't want to do this anymore. My water still intact.

I want to go home. You absolutely can. They cannot hold that against you. Do you think that women feel pressure like they have to comply in labor? Yes, doctors, I have seen it quite a few times.

We'll threaten the mom with their own baby. If you don't do this, your baby will die. If you don't do this, you'll harm your baby. Do you really want to put your baby in danger? Like, it's like gaslighting a manipulation to a point because there's no sit-down

conversations like this. Like, hey, this is the drug I would like to use. This is what happens if we don't. These are the risks. These are the other options.

This is what's going to happen if we don't do anything. Nobody's really sat down and given a conversation. The doctor comes in. Hey, what's up? Mrs. Smith.

Your potatoes are starting right now. I'll be back when the nurse calls me. Nobody's humble anymore. Nobody wants to explain anything anymore. And it's just why it's ending in so many birth trauma or traumatic births.

Even if what I had happened doesn't happen, women can still have like a vaginal birth and say that they felt traumatized from their birth because doctors are not informing them. They just don't feel like they're in charge of their birth, like you're at their mercy almost.

So what ended up happening? I mean, Joeline is born. She's severely brain damaged. She has this list of issues that you just shared. What ends up happening with the hospital?

I mean, did they, did they fess up and admit we, we've made a terrible mistake.

“We're so sorry, did you, did you win a huge settlement?”

What happened? After this happened, I was very out of it. They had me on a really strong morphing drip and I didn't, I didn't know what was going on when I woke up from the sea section back in the room. She was already in the transport cart literally at the foot of my bed and they were like,

if we don't leave now, your baby is going to die basically. Your baby needs treatment right now. And the closest hospital that could do that was about 45 minutes to an hour north. So, you know, I couldn't sit there like wake up and be like, oh, give me a few minutes. They were just like, you can touch her foot and then we are leaving.

We are leaving in five seconds. So is there a confusing in all that for me? Nobody explained anything to me until the next day after I'd woken up, they lowered my drugs and all that. And they're like, oh, you had a uterine rupture.

Don't know why it happened. It never happens. Super rare.

You're like one in a million.

Sorry, we didn't catch it sooner. Like, they were so cold. Did the nurse who said that you were dramatic when you had a uterine rupture, but she was just saying that you're dramatic, did she come back and apologize and say, you were right, I'm so sorry.

She had her own little way, I guess. She came in and she sat on my bed and she was laughing because she was so funny that I didn't catch the uterine rupture because I teach about them in school. She teaches nursing students about ruptures and she can't even notice one. She didn't even notice one.

I had all the tall-tailed signs. She didn't even notice. And that was you explained. I felt an explosion and my blood pressure went up, I had shoulder discomfort. My contractions went from like, you know, the nice, pretty hilly contractions to these real

jagged, like, not letting up contractions, everything changed. And if something like that happens, they're supposed to be like, we have to get somebody else in here. This mom was perfectly fine and now all of a sudden, she is screaming as loud as she can in agony.

Like, this isn't right. It was almost like she didn't care. They were both very, very cold. They're like, I'm sorry for your daughter, hope she, hope she recovers and that was pretty much it.

Meanwhile, your life just completely changed. Yeah. Meanwhile, my life, I didn't even know what was going on. I was like, so disassociated because I was like, this can't be true. This cannot be a thing.

And they're just like, Latta, move on to the next person.

“When did you finally get to spend time with your daughter?”

She was three days old because we were in two separate hospitals because I couldn't leave. My injuries were pretty severe too.

But I did sign myself out on the third day because when a baby gets cooling, they're

cold for three days. On the third day, they reverse them. They warm them back up and do a brain MRI and that's when you learn what's going to happen. Like, how bad is the damage?

And at that point, the doctors up there, they weren't expecting her to live. So I just, I just went up there, I was like, I don't, I don't really care at this point. She's going to die. I want to be there with her. I don't want her to be alone.

So I didn't mean her until she was three days old.

with the MRI. They said that it was done and that there was really, they couldn't explain it to me because they needed to get together with a team and all that. They did say that she was in like a comatostate because of all the drugs that they had to give her to, to keep her comfortable because I guess when you go into hypothermia, it's extremely

uncomfortable. So they did that, they didn't really explain much until she was about five days old. They showed me her MRI and they were like, this is, this is really bad. This is a severe, severe case. You know, we'll try to lower the doses of the meds to see if she can come off of them.

We don't know. She's ever going to wake up. We went on for like two weeks thinking that this was it. She's not going to wake up. Every time they lower her dose, I'd be sitting there like, just praying to anybody and

everything, like, just let her wake up and she never woke up.

It was probably about two weeks after she was born. She finally woke up. But nobody said anything, except for the naked doctors. They were like, you know, this is bad. More than likely, she's going to have cerebral palsy and epilepsy.

You know, you're going to be a caregiver for the rest of your life now. Kids like her don't live to see six months to a year old. So we need to start talking about these things. You know, you just have a baby. All these things happen.

And then they're like, we need to do this, that and the other, it's a lot. They're, I spent most of the time the naked just completely dissociated. At this point, had you put the puzzle pieces together and kind of figured out, okay, this is the hospital's fault. She was supposed to be a totally normal healthy baby.

There were no issues until they, you know, malpractice, basically. I would say she was about a month old and a nurse. I'd gotten like really closely. She said that she was going through like, on my records and, and everything and she pieced the puzzles together for me.

“She was like, I want you to know that this was preventable and you should go see a”

lawyer. You know, like, she sat me down. She was like, I, you need to know this because they're not going to tell you. We are going to go on your whole life thinking that you did something wrong, but you did nothing wrong.

So did you end up doing a lawsuit? We tried. We've tried really hard. For five years. Five and a half years.

We went to different lawyers, different states, different everything. But my records are not, they don't reflect what happened in real life. Like, I'll give you a couple examples. The doctor used the vacuum three times and the notes, it says, they only used a twice. Another part in there was that they put, I was comfortable with IV narcotics.

I was not complaining of pain. I was smooth sailing my whole labor, but I was not, you know, like I was screaming in agony. I was literally screaming that I was in so much ungodly pain and they put in there that it was normal, that my labor was totally normal. They had nothing to suspect that things went wrong until the very end, like, you know,

when her heart rate started to dip. And then they said it was probably just because of the Potosan, you know, the mom's body was just stressed out.

“So what happens when a hospital lies in the notes about what happened in a case like this?”

They get away with it. There's nothing we can do. I had no evidence. Nobody was there with us. It was just me and my husband.

We just wanted to be like a nice, intimate birth, not a family affair. Nobody was recording. There were no pictures. There was nothing. We thought we were going to go in, have her, and then I could just leave a few hours later.

So we weren't like, we had no, we have nothing. This makes me feel like if a woman does opt for a hospital birth, she needs to have cameras rolling the entire time. Mm-hmm. Would you agree with that?

Absolutely.

Not only just a camera, but a third-party person.

That's what I tell women all the time. Get a dula. If you can't get a dula, find somebody in your family that can act on behalf as a dula, because if something goes wrong and they're telling you it's fine, like somebody there is going to have to advocate, they're going to have to be taking pictures and videos and taking notes

and saying, this happened at this time. Women going into the hospitals now with no plan except I just want to live. Women are going to the hospitals now saying, my birth plan is just to live. And that's just, that's not good enough, that's not good enough, because then you're giving them the power to own your birth and you have nothing, you're giving up power.

Mm-hmm. So, absolutely.

“I feel like, you know, police by our body can't footage, why shouldn't doctors?”

Why shouldn't they? What is daily life look like now? It's very different, very different than what it was. It's, she needs 24/7 supervision, you know, because she can roll now. She's a little bit more mobile so she can roll, she can roll and hurt herself.

She doesn't swallow, so she needs to be suction constantly. She's fed the RG tube, so I have to feed her. She needs medicine. She has therapies in the house and out of the house. Some of them are like two hours away.

People come into the house all the time, it's just, it's just very different, you know, like, it is the typical life of a caregiver. Like, I am no longer existent, I'm just a robot there to make sure she lives and has a good life. Plus, you've got other kids that you've got to take care of and spend quality time with

and pour into, does Jolene experience feelings like joy and happiness? Oh, absolutely. Yeah. She loves her siblings, they could do anything, they could just be sitting there, like, drinking a bottle of water and she'll just lock at them.

She thinks they're hilarious and they love her, like, they're always playing with her.

She definitely has a motion and the older she gets, I can tell that she's in there.

She'll answer questions with, like, babbling or shaking her head just the day before I left. She was holding the TV or Motin.

“I said, hey, Jolene, can I have the remote and she put it, like, right in my hand, like,”

she knows things. It's almost like locked in syndrome where they're in there and they can hear and understand, they can't communicate. And she's how old now? She's six.

That's right, 2020. Man, so you had to then go through the whole pandemic navigating, having this severely special needs child and not being able to go many places or get out of the house. Yeah, it was rough. That's a lot of trauma compounded on top of one another.

Yeah, it was, and a lot from my other kids too, because, you know, I have to, while I'm healing and grieving, I have to help them heal and grieve too. I can't just leave them in the dust and, and all that, because they, they definitely were affected as well. They still are because they'll still till today say, it's so frustrating.

Jolene can't walk like we can't do this. We can't do that. I wish Jolene could do this, like, when is somebody ever going to be able to heal her brain damage?

Like, they're always, they're so hopeful and they really do think that one day she'll

just get up and walk into all these things, but I try not to like, dim their light, you know, but be realistic. I don't want them to be like, I don't want to be like, she's never going to walk. Don't, don't think about that. You know, like, I don't want to be negative because I know that they're grieving too.

So it's hard because I'm on my own healing grief journey and also trying to help them through theirs. So it's hard, but I am thankful. They do treat her so well. They are so good to her. They're so protective. Like, they love her and they're so understanding.

Like, if we can't go do something spur of the moment, they're like, it's fine. Let's clean up the living room. Put the blankets down and watch. Maybe. Like, they're so good.

They're so good. You ended up getting pregnant again after Jolene. What happened in that pregnancy? I lost her in the second trimester because my uterus was so damaged that my body just couldn't hold a baby anymore.

As soon as I would get to the halfway point, because we tried again after that loss. And after that second loss, my doctor was like, we can't do this anymore.

“Like, you have to have your uterus removed because if you get pregnant again at this point,”

you're putting your life at risk. So that was, that was rough too. I would say they definitely took that a lot better. We all did then what happened to Jolene. I don't know why I can't explain it, but it's just maybe it's just easier because they're

not here.

You know, they never were born.

They never got a chance to live so we didn't get a chance to make memories with them and bomb with them so I feel like maybe that's just why it's easier. You know, we miss them. We still talk about them and we talk about what we could be doing if they were here, but they don't sit around and cry all the time anymore.

None of us do. What did medical professionals tell you that you needed to do after that pregnancy ended? Does that have regular follow-ups? So are you wanting to get pregnant again? I can't anymore.

So they said to just have regular follow-ups. I went and saw a specialist because I was like, I need somebody, somebody different to tell me what their opinion is and this doctor was like, you're inside, they don't look good at all. You really should just get your uterus out because if you don't, it's going to cause you

more issues down the road. So I did in 2020, I want to say 2021, I did get my uterus taken out. Was that a, is that a hysterectomy? It was a partial. Okay.

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JuveJ-O-O-V-V.com/Alex. Some exclusions will apply. Do you now think elective induction is problematic? Yes. Yes.

Absolutely. I think it's problematic because like you said, you know, we're just, we're at their mercy. Many people just walk in there, the doctors are like just pitose and pitose and pitose and get them in and get them out. So the next person come in.

It's like a meat factory, like a revolving meat factory. They're just, nobody is treating birth like it should be anymore. Treating birth like a race, everybody's like, "I don't want to be pregnant anymore. I'm done. I'm done."

“Like, impulsively acting, where you should be thinking, "Well, what is the safest route?”

What is the safest route right now? Not, what could I do with the quickest?" They're just, and pitose and is being used way too much on women's bodies who aren't ready. So when you look back now, you're an entire birth experience, even before labor. Do you see this like domino effect of a cascade of interventions that started happening even

before you were in labor? Yes. So there is a such thing that's called a cascade of intervention in obstetrics. It's one intervention leads to the next, that one leads to the next, that one leads to the next.

So usually in inductions, it's okay, the mom comes in and she gets pitose and the pitose and is causing her horrific pain, so she gets an epidural. So then the mom gets the epidural, but then everything slows down, labor stops progressing, her waters are already broken, the doctors are like, "Oh, now we need to do a c-section because you're out of time."

It's like one right after the next, where it just shouldn't be that way. Women shouldn't have to tell their birth stories like that. They should be like, "Oh, I felt really respected, my doctor explained things to me. I understood their risks, and I made these choices because I was educated." Not because, "Oh, my doctor said," my doctor said.

“What should true informed consent during labor actually look like?”

It should happen at the appointment before. If a mom still chooses induction, it should still happen at the appointment before. The doctor should sit down and be like, "These are the risks to you. These are the risks to your baby. These are the other options.

This is what's going to happen if we do nothing. This is my professional recommendation. I need to examine you and see how ready your cervix is. We need to fully prep to make sure because if the cervix is not solved or dilated, it is hard and thick and just not ready, then when you force these contractions, the body is not going

to handle it well. Whereas if you're already like six centimeters in your cervix, it's nice and then your baby's already head down. Some pitocin could really just encourage contractions to come and it could end in a healthy safe vaginal birth.

But at 39 weeks, most women's bodies are not ready. That's barely full term. Barely. Is there an alternative that you like to pitocin or no? It depends.

I don't say pitocin is bad all the time. It's a good tool to have in your toolbox. The reason it becomes problematic is because it's just overused and misused.

Doctors become jaded to how powerful it is.

They like it because if a mom is having problems and she says no more, I don't want it. They can just shut it off and it leaves her bloodstream really fast. Whereas there are other methods. There are cervical ripeners and usually it looks like a pill that they insert into your cervix and it's supposed to help thin and dilate your cervix or a fully balloon which

is like this device that they put in the mothers vagina up into her cervix and it dilates the cervix with like a water balloon type thing. Then once the mom hits five centimeters, it'll fall out and then usually doctors go on to get pitocin because once you're at five centimeters, your body's a little bit more ready.

“If there's one that I like better than the other, I think it depends on the mom.”

What does her cervix look like? Where is her baby? How has her pregnancy been up to this point? We shouldn't just choose an option because it's easier. We should choose it based off what her body is saying.

I like all of them on certain people and then I don't think they're good on others.

Women in America who are offered pitocin should know all the risks. They should single one of them. Even the ones that are rare, they should know that risks not only them but they're baby as well and they should know that there are alternatives.

“What is a bishop score and why should women ask for it?”

So this is the score that's going to determine if your body is ready or not.

It's basically just a cervical exam and there's a scoring system.

I want to say a score or higher, your body is favorable. Your body is probably ready for an induction for a laborative birth, but anything before that, there's something more that's going to have to happen. If you are at like a two, you need cervical vibrators. You need a fully bold, no pitocin.

So they really just tell the doctor if we start right now, how is this going to end with this drug, this drug, or this mechanism? What should a woman ask before agreeing to induction? The main question is, is this necessary? What's going to happen if I don't do this?

What are my other options? How do you guys do it? Do you run everybody on the exact same system or do you create individualized care plans? Like I need to know the risks and what my options are. And I need you to tell me with evidence and hand too.

I want you to show me studies and literature that backs it up because it's there, it exists. Would you also say they should be asking for the C-section rate of that individual hospital for the hospital and the doctor? And why is that? Because if your doctor has a high C-section rate, then that means the majority of his births

or her births are C-sections. And that's alarming because nobody wants to have a C-section. That's major abdominal surgery. If you want a vaginal birth, that way they can get up and walk home the next day. If your doctor has a high C-section rate, that means something is going on there and that's

“a red flag because why are you doing so many C-sections?”

What is the reason? What is one sentence that every woman should practice saying before she goes into labor? I'm an individual. This is my birth and my baby. My body and my baby don't mimic my neighbors.

I don't have to do what somebody else did just because they did it. This is my body and my baby and I'm going to do what I think is best for us. If a woman is watching this interview right now and she is 39 weeks pregnant, what do you want to say to her? Just keep going.

I know the end of pregnancy. It's hard. Keep going for at least another week or two. Pregnancy at the end. It's painful.

But the alternative is to agree to an induction that could end in trauma and a C-section. Knowledge really is power. It is so powerful. The more you know, the better choices you can make and the more informed you can stay. You will know what to do, what the risks are, what side effects are, just the more you know

the better. Going into a birth and just being like, "I just want to live, I trust my doctors." That's not safe. We all want to healthy baby, which is why we should take steps to make sure that happens. Why do women research vaccines and formula, car seats, bottles, pacifiers, toys, paint

color for the baby's rooms? But nobody looks up any of the childbirth information and studies and stats. That's where life begins. That's really where it all starts. So start there, start researching, start reading, ask questions.

What is all of this cost your family emotionally and financially? Everything? Really, everything. I can't even give you one thing. It's everything.

Our lives are just completely turned upside down. You know, everything is really revolved around jolene. What can we do that she can? What if she's sick? This could cause her seizure if we do this, like, it's just, I don't even know the words

describe it. It's just very different. If each day, day by day, whereas before we were spontaneous and we did this and that, like, we're really carefree, whereas now we can't do that.

We don't even plan for three days ahead because three days ahead may never happen.

This is like an anomaly that you've never been able to leave your kids and go on a trip like you did come over the show. Never. This is the first. The first.

Well, I hope that this was a fun couple days for you to come out and we're so happy to host you. The proud of you for being such an advocate for other moms.

“I think you sharing your story so important.”

You obviously easily, and there wouldn't have been anything wrong with that either. Just decided, you know, this is a private thing. I'm not going to talk about this, but you talking about it is so crucial just from so many different angles. What has been the biggest blessing being a special needs parent?

You really experience a different kind of love, you know, because they can't talk. She can't tell me I love you. So she shows it by like cuddling me and when I'm like sitting up like answering emails and stuff, she'll scoot next to me and like put her hand on my leg or put her arm around me, it's just such a a deeper love because you really have to be conducted to your child

when they don't speak to really know them and be able to help them.

So it's just such a deep love, it's such an amazing connection.

What needs to change in American labor and delivery rooms? Everything, the whole system needs to be torn down and rebuilt and built around women being individuals. If doctors would just start informing women, giving them options and telling us the risks, it really could make a difference.

They just need to be more vocal.

I want to go home.

“It might put a wrench in their plans, but who cares?”

Because if you were respecting the woman and her baby and her decisions, then it shouldn't

matter. It should be built around what that woman needs and what she wants. Now what you want, what she wants. If you were able to get pregnant now, what would you want for your birth experience? I think I would definitely have a baby at home.

I would want that calming environment without all the bright lights and the people walking in and out, constantly touching me and doing this and that.

I would have a practicing midwife and a doula and I would just want to do it at home.

“Where can people follow your story with you and Jilline?”

So I'm on TikTok, Facebook and Instagram, but I'm more active on Facebook and Instagram. TikTok is, I don't know. I know. I don't like to just sit there in like record videos. I used to like it.

I don't like it anymore. I like doing a like Facebook and Instagram. What's your Instagram handle? That's a good question. You want to look really good.

Okay. So it's Katie under score, Spinks under score is my Instagram. And my Facebook is literally just Katie Spinks and it's a picture of me and Jilline. If you could offer one remedy to heal a sick culture, it could be physically emotionally or spiritually what would it be?

“If you want to learn more about informed consent during birth, the cascade of interventions,”

what your rights are during labor and how American birth has become so medicalized, go back to you. If you want to learn more about informed consent during birth, the cascade of interventions, what your rights are during labor and how American birth has become so medicalized, go back listen to my episode with OBGYN, Dr. Stu Fishbine where we discuss home birth versus hospital

birth. It was when the show was called the spillover. It was before I rebranded. So if you type in, Dr. Stu, the spillover, that episode will come up. Leave comments on the episode and a five star review or the cute service Facebook group.

If you had a traumatic birth experience, that is a safe place to share your story. Don't forget that a five star review celebrates the important work done by my team and let's them know how appreciated they are. New episodes come out every Monday and Thursday at 6pm Pacific 9pm Eastern anywhere you get your podcast.

This content is for informational purposes only and is not intended to be taken as medical advice.

Always consult with a qualified health care professional regarding any questions or decisions

related to your health or medical care. I'm Alex Clark and this is Culture of Public Security.