Secrets In Big Sky Country

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The Blackfeet Indian Reservation in northwestern Montana spans one and a half million

acres of dramatic landscapes.

“At the border it shares with Glacier National Park, its sweeping eastern grasslands collide,”

with the jagged peaks of the Rocky Mountain Front. It is a place where wolves, grizzly bears, and bison roam free. In June 2017, somewhere within these ancient lands of the Blackfeet Nation, 20-year-old Ashley Loring Heavy Runner vanished. Kimberly Loring is her sister.

I can look at her picture and feel a totally broken, it feels like it just happened. I continuously think of my sister every day. Who do the appearance didn't just change her life? It changed yours too in a huge way. Oh yes, yes, it can't believe it.

When Ashley disappeared, Kimberly became her sister's voice, telling Ashley's story to anyone who would listen, all the way from the wilds of Montana to U.S. Senators on Capitol Hill. There's something seriously wrong here, because our girls, our people and our men, are important. When she's not appealing to those in power, Kimberly has been scouring Montana's mountains,

searching for her sister.

“I just remember yelling Ashley's name, my mind was yell for Ashley, but my heart was”

in accepting that we're actually looking for her body. So far, those mountains have kept any secrets they might hold. And while law enforcement has very little to say about Ashley's case publicly, Kimberly believes, she knows what happened to her sister. I feel like Ashley's case was very easy to solve, it's right there.

I'm Josh Mankowitz, and this is Missing in America, a podcast from Date Line. This episode is Secrets in Big Sky Country. Please listen closely, because you or someone you know may have information that could help Ashley's family find the answers they're still looking for. 20-year-old Ashley Loring Heavy Runner loved the outdoors, and it is easy to see why.

She grew up on the Blackfeet Indian Reservation in Montana, a state famous for its unspoiled wilderness, and wide open horizons. It's called Big Sky Country, for a reason. Kimberly Loring is Ashley's older sister, by three years. We're part of the Blackfeet Tribe, we grew up on the Rocky Mountain Friends, and my grandpa's

ranch. The Rocky Mountain Friends are where dramatic limestone peaks rise up from the prairie. That was their backyard.

We're always together, riding horses, just running around, having fun.

And my sister Ashley was very soft-hearted. She was really kind, she loved taking care of the animals. Ashley was just five foot two and 90 pounds, a tiny frame for a very big personality. She's feisty, she's very feisty. Helio Miso also grew up on the Blackfeet Reservation.

She has actually played against each other in great school sports. She was very competitive, she was kind of a little fireball. By high school, they were classmates with friends in Kama. Every time I saw her, she was always smiling and happy and really just the light in the

After high school, Ashley enrolled at Blackfeet Community College, the first in her family to pursue a college degree.

“What did you think she was going to end up doing with her life?”

What did she talk about wanting to do? She wanted to work at the forestry.

She always like going up to the mountains.

In 2016, Ashley was chasing that dream when she stumbled. She had her long-time boyfriend broke up and she took it hard. I feel like when you were 20 years old and you go through your heartbreak, you feel like it could be the end of the world, it could be, you know, just facing your first depression and everything seems bigger than maybe it really is.

Yes. Kimberly says at the time, Ashley was still grieving the death of their grandfather years earlier. They were close. When my grandfather had a stroke, my sister was the one that was there to help take care

of him.

“When she was going to school, so she was right there with him.”

That was hard for your sister.

Yeah, it was very, very hard for Ashley. Reeling from the loss of two people she loved, Ashley started another relationship. This one, with drugs, what drug was she using? Just the main drug at the time, I think it was met on the reservation. At the time, Kimberly was living in Masula, four hours from the reservation, and at first

did not realize Ashley was using. They talked by phone frequently, but not in person. When you talked to her, did she sound different? No, she sounded completely normal when she was talking to me. She told me that she just had a problem at drinking.

That she was just going out and drinking more. And you chocked that up to the breakup and losing your grandfather.

“Yeah, I just basically told her, like, you need to get just stuff together.”

We don't do that. That sounds like good big sister advised, did she say she was going to tell you?

Yeah, I should always tell me that she would take in.

She didn't want to tell me that she slipped into, because that's what my grandfather was very against. He was against drinking and smoking and drugs. When Kimberly learned of Ashley's drug use, the sister is agreed on a plan that would give Ashley a fresh start.

She would move to Missouri, live with Kimberly, and enroll at the University of Montana. The plan was for her to finish her degree. She just wanted to get out of the reservation, so that was our next step. That next step was supposed to happen after Kimberly came home from a trip to Morocco. She returned June 8, 2017, but did not hear from Ashley.

A few days went by and still no word. Her family started calling friends to see if they'd heard anything. We were told she was with the family friend, and we're okay that makes sense, maybe she broke her phone, just usually breaks her phone or loses her phone, or leaves it somewhere. Kimberly reached out to their family friend.

He said that she wasn't with him. That by itself was alarming. It meant that no one in Ashley's circle had seen or heard from her in more than two weeks. Ashley's mom filed a missing person's report with Blackfeet Law Enforcement, the tribal police on the reservation.

They posted a be on the lookout flyer, a bolo, on their Facebook page. Ashley's high school classmate Haley Amiso remembers scrolling on her phone at college in Masula, and seeing that post. Suddenly there was a face that I recognized on my newsfeed, and I was really shocked to see her on there.

Do you know, I hope she's okay, hopefully she makes contact with her family. That did not happen. On June 28, tribal police received a tip that alarmed Ashley's relatives. She was seen by the Rocky Mountains, about the T.P. monuments and the Divide Mountain. She was in front of a vehicle, and she was running from a car.

Kimberly says tribal police and officers from the Bureau of Indian Affairs, the BIA, searched the area of the reported sighting. Family members helped, and Kimberly drove up from Masula. They found no signs of Ashley, and Kimberly says after three days, law enforcement stopped searching.

And that's when I knew that we were going to have to do it on our own. Kimberly says, for months, law enforcement told her family something we hear from a lot of the families of the missing, that 20-year-old Ashley was an adult, and therefore was

Ignoring your family is not a crime, but Kimberly knew, Ashley's silence was a huge red

“flag, completely out of character for her to not be communicating with you, at least.”

Right? Yes. Kimberly was certain something was seriously wrong and did not return to Masula. She stayed on the reservation, determined to find her little sister. A clue was about the surface, and it would convince Ashley's family.

They had good reason to worry. Somebody had her phone. So when she was talking to you, it was her and a couple of days later, it wasn't her. Yes. [Music]

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Kimberly Loring and her sister Ashley had messaged each other on Facebook on June 6, 2017, just before Kimberly headed home from Morocco. Since then, no one in her large extended family had heard from Ashley. Now, weeks later, Kimberly was hearing from people Ashley had contacted after June 6th. A lot of people came forward and we saw on Ashley's Facebook account that she

was calling random people like people she didn't even talk to before. That seemed odd. And when Kimberly read a message Ashley sent on June 7th, something else caught her eye. The wording that she used, it didn't sound like Ashley, the typing and the spelling, it didn't sound like her.

So I feel like somebody had her phone on June 7th. So when she was talking to you, it was her and a couple of days later, it wasn't her. Yes. Fewer than 9,000 people live on the black feet reservation. Ashley's relatives were talking with everyone they could think of,

who might know where Ashley was and soon.

“Kimberly uncovered a secret her sister had kept from her.”

According to Kimberly, about three weeks before she went missing, Ashley had begun hanging out with a man who was more than twice her age. His name is Paul Valensuela. He was married and separated from my father's first cousin.

Your sister never told you about him.

No. Maybe because what she thought you'd be just as disappointed in that as in her drug use. Yeah, it wouldn't be a normal thing for us to be like, "Oh, that's cool. No, that would be a good stay away from that old man."

her cousin, Tashina running crane.

Paul had given Ashley a ride a couple of weeks earlier, so Kimberly called him. You freaked out and said she was lying. Paul later messaged Kimberly on Facebook, and he pointed a finger at Tashina.

Paul claimed Tashina probably knew more than she was saying. They have since divorced. We reached out to both of them and have not heard back. Neither has been named as a person of interest in Ashley's case, and in interviews with other journalists.

Both of denied involvement in her disappearance. In addition to her alleged relationship with Paul,

“there was apparently another secret Ashley did not talk about.”

Kimberly says a few days before she vanished. Ashley told her grandmother she was pregnant. According to Kimberly, the baby's father was a family friend. Not Paul Valensuela.

Until recently, Ashley's family found this detail too painful to share publicly. We didn't speak about it because of how difficult and heartbreaking it was

to know that she finally was pregnant because she wanted to be a monster bad.

Kimberly kept talking with people around town and as she listened to their stories, her worries grew. I learned about a man named Sammy Donald, that they said that brought Ashley up to divide. Divide is a mountain along the border of glacier national park,

and the stretch of highway where the tips to reported seeing Ashley running from the car is near the mountains eastern base.

“Who is Sammy Donald and why would he be involved in your sister's disappearance?”

A lot of people who do drugs know Sam. I don't know why she would be around him unless it had to do drugs.

You think the connective tissue here is all her drug use?

Yeah, it was a very short, strong phase of her life. Sam was 56 years old when Ashley disappeared. Kimberly says he told her Ashley left a party with him on June 6th, and they drove to his cabin near glacier national park. Sam said they spent six days together during which they consumed a lot of drugs.

Then he said he drove Ashley to a pull off near Divide Mountain, where she told him someone called V-dog was going to pick her up. Sam said he fell asleep while they waited in his car. He laid his seat back, and then he went to sleep, and then Ashley was gone. So that's his story.

You believe that? No, I do not believe that. Sam McDonald has told the same story in interviews with other journalists. He said he later learned that V-dog was Paul Valenzuela. Sam has also described his past struggles with drug addiction and says law enforcement

questioned him and searched his home and property multiple times after Ashley went missing. We reached out to Sam, so far he has not responded. Investigators have not named him as a person of interest or suspect. Kimberly believes Sam, her cousin Tashina, and Tashina's now ex-husband Paul Valenzuela.

The older man Ashley was allegedly seeing. We're all somehow involved in Ashley's disappearance. She believes that in part, because Paul and Tashina have pointed fingers at each other. And Tashina has also pointed a finger at Sam, who says he was with Ashley just before she went missing. Kimberly says she has shared her suspicions with investigators.

“What's been the response from law enforcement from the beginning?”

Just a lot of listening, but not doing anything, believing Sam's story. The BIA told us they have followed up on all the leads they have received. Tashina has told other journalists she did not know Paul and Ashley were allegedly seeing each other until after Ashley went missing. She has also said law enforcement interviewed her in 2018 about Ashley's disappearance and she took a polygraph test. She said she was not told the results.

In 2024, Tashina's ex-husband Paul Valenzuela was convicted of assaulting his son-in-law, and according to a court document from that case, FBI agents questioned him in 2021 about Ashley's case.

With their suspicions in mind, Kimberly and her family focused their searches for Ashley on the northwestern edge of the reservation.

Near Sam McDonald's house.

“And you look and it's the Rocky Mountains right in front of you. I remember searching all day and going home and not being able to sleep and then going back out there and searching again.”

And on one of those searches, they found something. We were told by somebody that they seen Ashley wearing their gray sweater at one time, and we found one in the dump area. Kimberly says that sweater had red stains on it, and on another search, Kimberly says a friend found a pair of boots that were Ashley's size. She says they gave both items to law enforcement. That might be a chain of custody issuing any future criminal proceeding, because it wasn't law enforcement leading those searches. It was Ashley's family.

Reporter Nora maybe covers indigenous affairs for the Montana Free Press and says families leading the way in searches is quite common.

“Families are constantly running their own searches. They're fundraising for these searches and communities organize themselves.”

The idea that a family can conduct the kind of thorough effective search that you would expect from law enforcement seems to be kind of crazy. Families are not going to be able to do a good job. No matter how dedicated they might be. Yeah, exactly. Searching for a missing person is a professional skill and most families understandably are not trained in that.

As frustrating as this is for families, Nora says the reality is that law enforcement on reservations operates on an increasingly thin budget.

Many of these agencies are vastly, vastly underfunded. So black fee tribal law enforcement, they typically have just three people patrolling that 1.5 million acre reservation at once. So that's three people patrolling an area larger than the state of Delaware. The BIA is the federal agency responsible for investigating major crimes on reservations. They told us they opened Ashley's investigation when tribal police alerted them on June 28th, 2017. Three days after Ashley was reported missing.

They also said their victim services unit met with Ashley's family three weeks later and many times after that. However, Kimberly maintains the agency did not start a serious investigation until September 2017. More than two months after her sister disappeared. The BIA shares jurisdiction over federal crimes committed on Indian reservations with the FBI. And in February 2018, eight months after Ashley lowering heavy runner vanished.

The FBI took over as the lead investigating agency. According to the BIA, that's because law enforcement received leads possibly involving locations outside of tribal lands. By the summer of 2018, national news outlets were paying attention to Ashley's case. It was what Kimberly had asked for, although it arrived later than she had hoped. She says it was also for her personally, a little terrifying.

Was it hard for you to suddenly sort of, you know, step out in front of cameras and people that you didn't know and start trying to bring awareness to your sister's case?

“Oh yeah, I have a stutter and so I was extremely hard, but that's how much I love my sister's sister.”

I would speak in front of millions to tell her story.

In December 2018, Kimberly mustered her courage to tell Ashley's story on a platform more powerful than any she had dreamed of.

Today, we're going to hear a firsthand account from Kimberly, lowering heavy runner about her sister Ashley. Kimberly testified at a Senate hearing, held to find out why so many missing Native Americans are not being found. Facing that room full of lawmakers, Kimberly described the delays in investigating Ashley's case. And the ways she believes law enforcement had led her family down.

I believe that the law enforcement did not take Ashley's case seriously, as well as other girls that have gone missing and murdered.

To underline her point to the committee, Kimberly said that those pieces of clothing her family and friends found in their searches were now missing just like her sister. At the time we were working with the BIA, it was after two weeks that we called to speak with them about this sweater. They lost it. They called us and told us that we do not know where this sweater is at. Officials from the FBI, the Department of Justice, and the Bureau of Indian Affairs also testified at that hearing. Montana Senator Steve Dains asked the then director of the BIA's Office of Justice Services Charles adding to about the delay in starting Ashley's investigation.

“Two months. Yes, almost time. Is that the protocol he follow? No, and I think there's got to be a lot better coordination at the beginning and most of these cases that I'm familiar with.”

It just seems like we have to have ever agency have in better coordination in the beginning of these things.

All the officials who testified said lack of coordination between law enforcement agencies is one reason so many missing Native America. I think Native Americans are not being found among the other reasons lack of data collection and two few tips and leads from tribal members. Kimberly says soon after the hearing adjourned, she received an update from the Bureau of Indian Affairs about that lost clothing she had mentioned.

“They made a phone call, it was found and it was going to get like shipped off and tested.”

That seemed encouraging at the time. But Kimberly says her family still has not heard from law enforcement about whether the tests were completed. She says in June, 2021, the FBI did tell her the evidence is in their custody, but they could not provide any other information including if it has been tested. In 2019 came and went with no new developments. In 2020, Ashley and Kimberly's father died. A year later, their mother told date line she had not given up hope Ashley's case would be solved. But to Ashley's family and to reporters like Nora may be, they did not appear to be any movement in Ashley's case. I want to give law enforcement the benefit of the data here.

I mean, it's entirely possible they are doing things and they don't want those things publicized because that's certainly an issue for law enforcement. But it clearly makes families feel forgotten. Yeah, exactly. And it's hard for reporters then to stay on top of a case when there's no new information coming out. For almost seven years, there was little to report about Ashley's case. However, things were happening because of it. Even though the case hasn't been solved, it's transformed all these other people. Exactly.

One of those people is Haley Amiso, Ashley's high school classmate.

“She's the reason why I went into forensics and why I started Okami forensics. Today, she's on a mission to bring CSI to the Blackfeet Nation. Could it help solve Ashley's case?”

My name is Sarah Turnie. I spent years fighting for justice for my missing sister Alyssa Turnie. Before and arrest was finally made in her case after nearly 20 years.

But after my experience with the media, law enforcement and the court system, I knew I couldn't stop with Alyssa's case. I know what it's like to fight for media attention for answers and for justice. After I stopped telling my sister's story, I knew I wanted to help as many other victims survivors and families as I could. On my podcast, Voices for Justice, I provide unique insight into these tragic cases. Because I know what it's like to not just listen to these stories, but to live them. And more importantly, how to help them by being a true voice for justice.

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“The extent of the problem of missing Indigenous Americans is so great and the publicity surrounding these cases is so sparse.”

There is a saying in Native American communities. When an Indigenous woman goes missing, she goes missing twice. First, her body vanishes and then her story. Ashley Loring heavy-runner's story has not vanished. Her sister Kimberly has made sure of that.

And so his or her childhood friend, Haley Umiso. When Haley realized Ashley had gone missing in 2017, she followed the case closely, hoping for good news that never came.

I just kept seeing her flyer, getting re-shared for days and weeks and years.

“To Haley, it was obvious what was missing from the investigation.”

You see non-native people that go missing and their face all over the news and resources are just being deployed to the last place that they were seen and that just wasn't happening in Ashley's case. As Ashley's case grew colder, Haley was hard at work hitting the books. She completed a PhD in forensic and molecular anthropology. Today, she's Dr. Haley Umiso. She says she chose this career because of Ashley. She's the reason why I went into forensics and why I started Okami forensics. Through her non-profit Okami forensics, she's bringing crime-solving methods including DNA testing and human remains analysis to the black-feet reservation and other Native American communities.

For families of the missing, their services are free of charge. Our motto is search identify rematriate, so starting from the very beginning of searching for a missing person to identifying them, finding out what happened to them and then rematriating them or bringing them back to their families. That's everything that I want to do.

Haley created the first DNA database of black-feet-nation members. She's hoping it can serve as a tool to help families and law enforcement.

Her hope is that when unidentified remains are found, they can be checked against the database to see if that person was from the black-feet tribe and to possibly link the remains to family members. It's just one piece of Haley's strategy to bring more forensic might to cases like Ashley's. Here's another. One main thing that I see is lack of evidence. Trying to get justice for your family member, but there's no evidence there. So how can we apply forensics to that?

When families suspect a relative was a victim of homicide, Haley's team of volunteers can review autopsy, toxicology, and police reports.

For now, they're using a lab at black-feet community college.

“When she gets more funding, Haley plans to open a crime lab on the black-feet reservation.”

Tribal enforcement doesn't have their own testing system. They don't have their own crime labs. The breathtaking extent of the sheer number of missing cases involving the Native American community is hard to believe. Unless, of course, you live there. According to the Montana Department of Justice, while Native Americans represent between 6% and 7% of the state's population, they are nearly 24% of the missing.

Epidemic feels like a pretty good word to describe that. Haley hopes, "Okemy forensics." We'll be able to give families and local law enforcement the answers they need, sooner. At the state level, and at the federal level, the backlog is just insane.

“So I mean, trying to get families answers in a more timely manner is also an issue that I think having our own crime lab on the reservations could help solve.”

You'd like to see a time when sort of all reservations have their own forensic testing facilities. Yeah, I think that would be great. If there had been a crime lab on the reservation, when Haley's family and friends found that sweater in those boots, it's possible that evidence could have been tested a lot sooner. Haley's goal is to fill a gap, and that means building bridges with tribal law enforcement agencies.

That's part of what we're doing right now is trying to create agreements so that we can be brought in more often in these kinds of cases. The name of Haley's nonprofit reflects its mission, and also Haley's personal journey. In the Blackfeet language, "Okemy" means to use one's voice. I tell people all the time that I'm an accidental advocate.

When I was growing up, I was the shy girl never really spoke my mind, and that was really until actually when missing.

When Haley speaks publicly, she usually begins by introducing herself first, in her native language. "Okemy's Dune Donna Kuh, Esimaki, Nidaya, Binks and Gauksim Haley Omiso." And then, in English. "Hello, my name is Haley Omiso. I am from the Blackfeet reservation." Reporter Nora Maybe says she's seen the difference Haley's work is making.

Her work, I know families really, really appreciate it. You know, just being able to work directly with a native person. I've heard people talk about how much that means to them, and then she can test things. It helps the family get some kind of answer. In a circumstance in which law enforcement may be isn't even calling you back. Exactly. It just helps the family feel like the case is moving forward in some way, even if it's just to rule something out.

I asked Kimberly Loring what she thinks about all of this, and what it might mean for her sister's case.

“The work that Haley's doing, that could ultimately make a huge difference, couldn't it?”

Yeah. Yes, it could determine what they find, and it just, it's just hardcore evidence. It's extremely important. And maybe it would put cases like Ashley at the top of the list instead of somewhere near the bottom or maybe not even on the list. Yeah, and it would be a lot of relief knowing that has been taken seriously.

And that whatever evidence they find, they can be able to determine if it's her or not, and knowing that it's from one of our own people is really good.

We have no words for it because it's amazing.

We have noticed that a few important voices are missing from this story. The Blackfeet Tribal Police, the Bureau of Indian Affairs, and the FBI all declined our requests to speak with them. We also sent them written questions. The FBI and the BIA told us because the investigation is ongoing, they could not answer many of our questions, including whether the sweater and boots were tested. They did respond to Kimberly's claim that they haven't taken Ashley's case seriously.

The FBI wrote, quote, "The FBI takes all cases seriously. We are deeply aware of the responsibility that we carry in seeking justice for loved ones.

Unquote. The FBI also addressed Kimberly's claim that it's been difficult to get updates from them.

“They wrote, quote, "FBI investigations in Indian Country are influenced by the nature of the offense, a fence location, the number and type of subjects and victims, and a variety of other factors.”

The quality of the investigation is the focus.

Victim specialists in Indian Country provide critical support to victims and their families."

Unquote. The BIA told us they, quote, "Take every missing person case seriously." During investigations, there could be times when the investigators will not have any updates to communicate for weeks at a time. Unquote. So far, we have not heard back from the Black Feet Tribal Police. Nine years is a long time to wait for answers.

I mean, it's been one of the most publicized cases, and yet still not soft, which has got to be just exhaustive sometimes. Yeah, it is very tiring.

“Ashley's case, and Kimberly's voice, have made a difference. After that Senate hearing in 2018,”

the BIA issued a new policy for responding to missing persons reports.

And in 2019, they created a new cold case missing persons office. Today, it is called the missing and murdered unit. To Kimberly, those changes are simply not enough. Ashley's case, it helped change a lot of different laws within the BIA, but it's still missing. You know, they use her story in the trainings, but they do not solve her case.

Nearly a decade of living with unanswered questions, and without Ashley, has scarred her family. But it has not stopped them from searching.

My family has gone through one big storm, but we made it. We're still going.

I'm glad to hear that. You think your sister's case will eventually be solved? Yes, I truly still have hope even after all these obstacles and everything in these roadblocks and being told no, I believe one day we will bring Ashley home, and that's the hope that I have. What do you want people to do when they hear this? If they're going through the same feelings and the same things that my sister has gone through, I would want them to.

“You know, you have to take care of themselves, because I don't want them to be another statistic.”

I want them to look at their lives and understand that. This can happen to anybody, and it could really really put an impact on your family. She also has a message for the people she thinks know where Ashley is, but so far are not saying. I want them to know that my family will not retaliate against you. My family is simply just wanting to bring Ashley home. And I think that you have this strength that's inside of you to take accountability of your actions.

Just say what happened. Yes. And you can't take back what happened to Ashley because I know every day you wish you could change it, but you can allow her to go home. That's one choice you have left is you can end this. Here is how you can help.

Ashley, Lauren heavy runner, was last seen in June 2017 in Browning, Montana, on the Blackfeet Indian Reservation. At the time of her disappearance, Ashley was 20 years old, with Brown here and Brown eyes. She was five foot two inches tall and weighed 90 pounds. If you have any information about Ashley's disappearance, please call the FBI at 1-800-Call-FBI or contact their field office in Billings at 406-248-8487. You could also submit a tip online at tips.fbi.gov.

To see photos of Ashley and to learn more about other people we've covered in our Missing In America series, go to datelineMissingInAmerica.com. There you'll also be able to submit cases you think we should cover in the future. Thanks for listening. We'll see you Friday's on dateline on NBC. Or you can stream anytime on peacock, YouTube, or by subscription to the NBC News app.

Subscribe to dateline premium for early access and add free listening for all our podcasts.

“Missing In America is a production of dateline and NBC News.”

Kate Vidak is the producer of this episode, E.D. Peffley is the associate producer.

Marshall Housefell is the editor.

Bradley Davis is senior producer. Paul Ryan is executive producer.

“And Liz Cole is senior executive producer.”

From NBC News Audio, sound mixing by Justin K. Sloan.

Jessica Fenton is head of audio production. What drives a person to kill is an uncontrollable rage overwhelming fear, unbearable jealousy.

“Or is it something deeper, something in the darkest corners of our psyche?”

Every Monday and Thursday, the crime house original podcasts, serial killers and murderous minds, drives deep into the minds of history's most chilling murderers. From infamous serial killers to ruthless cult leaders, deadly access and terrifying spree killers. I'm Dr. Tristan Engels, a licensed forensic psychologist. Along with Vanessa Richardson's immersive storytelling full of high stakes, twists and turns,

in every episode of serial killers and murderous minds, I'll be providing expert analysis of the people involved, not just how they killed, but why. Listen to and follow serial killers and murderous minds, available now wherever you get your podcasts.