Gilgo Beach serial killer pleads guilty. Hawaii doctor learns his fate. Plus, reasonable doubt.

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Hope you'll listen, and follow the drink wherever you get your podcasts. The wine, you're listening to Date Lines Morning Meeting. The woman at the center of it last heard Pile yesterday, which is how it came back on my radar. Our producers are sharing tips and story ideas. I don't think we've had spellcasters before.

Why was her first conditional return? Welcome to Date Lines True Crime Weekly. I'm Andrea Canning. It's April 9th, and here's what's on our docket. In Hawaii, a verdict is in for the anesthesiologist accused of attempting to murder his wife on a birthday hike. We may have the verdict right now. The jury is in the room, and the judge you see them talking to the jury right now. Date Lines Roundup, courtroom confusion in the case of murder dad and Microsoft designer Jared Bride again.

And our first glimpse at DNA evidence prosecutors plan to use against a former police officer accused of murdering pregnant teachers aid, Sandra Birchmore.

The state made it very clear this week. Their stance is that the evidence has only gotten stronger since he was first charged. Plus, we'll talk to a veteran trial lawyer about the two words jurors need to bear in mind before reaching their verdict.

“Resinable doubt is a prosecutor. I think every closing I sat through, I often thought, "Man, how are we going to meet this?"”

But before all that, we're off to Long Island for what appears to be the final chapter in the saga of the Gilgo Beach serial killer. It's a case I've been covering for more than a decade, and one that has haunted the people of Long Island for even longer. Since 1993, police have found 11 sets of human remains in multiple locations in and around the coastal community of Gilgo Beach. Some of the bodies were wrapped in burlap, some of them were dismembered. Many of the victims were sex workers and families were left wondering who had done this to their loved ones.

I couldn't believe it, I just was like, "How do you go looking for my sister, this one woman, to now uncovering a circular zumping ground?" For years, investigators had no answers until one evening in July of 2023, 30 years after the first remains were found, police finally made an arrest. They handcuffed architect Rex Huerman as he left his office in Midtown Manhattan. He was subsequently charged with the murders of seven of the victims. Since then, in hearing after hearing, Huerman has steadfastly maintained his innocence,

and his defense seemed to be gearing up to go to trial in September. Then, on Wednesday morning, everything changed. The Gilgo Beach serial killer suspect now says he did it, and he has admitted to an eighth murder. NBC News reporter Adam Rees was inside the courtroom as Huerman pleaded guilty and is here now to tell us what he heard. And Adam, you were right outside the courthouse right now. Yes, thank you for having me, Andrea.

Yeah, sure, so this has been, as we said and know, it's been a big story in true crime news for a lot of years. What started as a search for one victim really snowballed into something truly frightening.

“When they were set to go to trial, this fall, what evidence did the prosecution have against Heurman?”

They were able to develop some key evidence. Everything from his cell usage pinpointing various cell towers, both in Massapika Park, where he lived and in Manhattan, where he worked, they were able to find a manifesto describing how he was going to approach the killings. And most importantly, they were able through witness testimony to identify the vehicle he had used in the pursuit of some of these crimes. And also some of the big DNA evidence Adam was hairstyles that were found on the duct tape used to bind the victims.

One hair was a direct match to Heurman. Well, the DNA evidence was really truly overwhelming. And I think that was key to the decision by Heurman to change his plea.

So take us to inside that hearing. What was the mood like the vibe? The public in the press started lining up at 430 this morning for an 11 o'clock hearing. And there was lots of anticipation. The courtroom was packed. There were investigators, police officers, members of the Suffolk County, NASA County, New York State Police, lining the walls as Rex Heurman entered the courtroom.

One thing Adam that I was so surprised to hear was that his daughter, Victoria, and his ex-wife, A.C. L.R.P. They arrived with her lawyer. They had to get in line with everyone else. And they had a film crew with them. Yes, they actually happened to sit in my row five seats down from me. And Victoria sat on next to her mother and actually put her head on her mother's shoulder before the hearing began.

Come to order, please, remain seated at this time.

“Adam, take us to the moment of the plea that everyone was waiting for, how did it unfold?”

There was a moment at the beginning of the hearing when the judge said, don't bring him out yet. And then he said, the court has become aware that the defendant may enter a guilty plea today, which is perhaps the worst kept secret in this building.

There were lots of media reports that he was going to plead guilty, but you never know until the moment that he does it,

whether he's going to do it or not. Yeah, seriously, someone like that, you never know. They could want to mess with people. Sure, bring them a phone up, please. It's really fun not to have to.

Very good. Thank you. So one by one, Rex pleaded guilty to murdering Megan Waterman, Amber Castello, Melissa Barthelomy, Marine-Brainard Barnes, Jessica Taylor, Valerie Mack, and Sandra Castilla. Stay human, hold it.

Fix the two. After discussions with your warden, you feel it's in the best interest to put guilty around them or try. Yeah, sure on us. Do you understand that by pleading guilty to a charge? That is the same as you had gone for trial in the time of guilty of that charge?

Yes, sure on us.

“Do you understand that by pleading guilty of waving a number of very important rents?”

Yes, sure on us. And on top of that, he admitted to an eighth murder Karen Vergada in 1996.

He had never been charged for that.

He had to give an allocation, which is for the record, you know, a full accounting of his actions. Did he show any emotion at all? No emotion. And, you know, somewhat soft spoken. Very clear, but somewhat soft spoken.

What did he say? Well, I was actually quite surprised by that because a typical allocation he would have described in detail what he did. How we went about meeting up with them? How we went about taking them out to go go beach? How we killed them?

How we dismembered them? There was none of that.

“So I think a lot of families, a lot of investigators were left sort of somewhat empty in terms of wanting more.”

Wanting more description of how we went about doing this. But very importantly, he is going to meet with the FBI and explain. This is a behavioral analysis unit of the FBI and they will have an opportunity to really delve into his mind. He has promised that he'll do this as part of the police negotiation and maybe they'll learn more about how and why he went about doing this. Adam, imagine being a fly on the wall for those meetings.

Wow. That's huge. So there's some of these cases, these are the remains that were found are unsolved at this point. Could he be charged in the future with any more of these potential charges could come forward as their investigation continue. And if they were to find other bodies, he could potentially be charged for those.

Suffolk County District Attorney Ray Tierney, who I've interviewed, he spoke at a press conference after the hearing. Tell us what he had to say. He, this was a moment for Ray Tierney to celebrate. He said the defendant walked among us as a normal suburban dad. He lured women. He murdered them. But he didn't silence them.

Not only did their bodies provide the clues necessary to find their killer, but the families never gave up in their determination to get justice.

And while we in law enforcement, as well as our Suffolk County citizens, mourn the loss of these victims, we are also grateful to them and to their families because without them, this defendant would have never been brought to justice and would still be walking amongst us. And he would still be portraying himself as that same harmless father next door instead of what he is a convicted murderer. And Ray Tierney was, you know, grateful to the families. Did they speak after court?

It was important for them to be in court, to watch him plead guilty, to be there and witness that.

“I think a lot of them are breathing a sigh of relief.”

Yeah, and I mean, Marine Brainard Barnes, the sister missy spoke and said your life will always mean more than the tragedy that took you, which is very moving.

It's not about the person responsible. Today is about the women's lives who were stolen is about their voices, their future and their families to love that still surrounds them. There were moments when the wait felt unbearable, but I never gave up. Marine was never forgotten, not firsting a moment. What about Hugherman's family, Asa, Ella up? They're no longer married.

She also spoke after this. Yes. My thoughts and prayers are with the victims and their families.

Their loss is immeasurable, and the focus should be on them at this time and moment.

I ask that you give some privacy to my family as they navigate through this very difficult time. Reporters tried to press her. She said she wasn't going to answer any questions, but they tried to press her on the fact that you lived with them. How could you say you had no idea this was going on? She and her daughter continue to say that they had no idea that they just couldn't imagine. And we still, there still will be a sentencing. June 17th, we expect multiple family members to speak out as victim impact statements.

Rex Hugherman is expected to speak at the sentencing hearing as well. Adam, we will definitely cover that sentencing for Dateline True Crime Weekly, and we appreciate all of your insight into this very emotional day for a lot of people. Thank you, Andrea. Coming up, the Hawaii anesthesiologist accused of attempting to murder his wife on a clifftop gives his side of the story. He was a young Marine. She didn't care about convention. They made a life together.

Then one night, the Marine died, and then the death investigation took a wild, unexpected, and utterly bizarre turn. I'm Josh Maykowitz, and this is Trace of Suspicion, an only podcast from Dateline. Listen to all episodes of Trace of Suspicion now, wherever you get your podcasts. Hey guys, Willie Geist here, reminding you to check out the Sunday Sit Down podcast. On this week's episode, I get together with stand-up comedy superstar, Nate Bargazzi in front of a live audience at New York City winery,

to talk about his rise from small clubs to sold out arenas around the world. You can get my conversation with Nate for free, wherever you download your podcasts. For the past four weeks, a Hawaii jury has heard conflicting testimony about what happened between Dr. Gerhard Koneg, and his wife Ariel during a morning hike on a clifftop trail in a Wahoo in March of 2025. Prosecutors say Gerhard was so consumed with rage and jealousy over his wife's emotional relationship with a male coworker that he tried to kill her.

First, by pushing her off a cliff, then by pulling out a syringe and trying to inject her with something.

When that didn't work, they say he'd hit her over the head with a rock. They have called witnesses ranging from the hikers who found Ariel bleeding at the top of the mountain to the doctors who treated her injuries. Ariel herself showed the jury her scars.

“Do you have any visible long-term effects from the injuries from March of 2024 to 2025?”

Yes, I am scarring on my scalp in my face. But last week, the jury got to hear from Gerhard himself, and over five hours of dramatic testimony, he laid out a very different version of events, telling the jury that he was the victim. Gerhard, did you have a plan to kill your wife on the mountain out there? No.

When you hit her with the rock, twice, why didn't you do it? It's a tough event. Here to fill a sin and tell us about the final hours of this fascinating trial is why news now anchor and reporter Mahayalani Richardson. Welcome back, Mahayalani. Aloha Andrea, the defense went back to the beginning of the couple's relationship.

“They asked Gerhard, you know, how he met Ariel, why they moved to Maui?”

Right. So Gerhard met Ariel on the dating app E harmony. They married two years later. They were living on the continent. Then they wanted to move to Maui.

He said they wanted to be somewhere safe. Use the word safe. They wanted to slow down and look after their two young children. Emil, who is his son from a previous marriage, also moved in with them.

Once we were here and settled in, it was our dream life.

“I was spending a lot more time with the kids and with the area and with the meal.”

Every weekend, we would explore Maui. I'm going to be talking to every weekend, snorkeling, surfing, paddle boarding, hiking. So the way Gerhard tells it everything seemed great in this new life in Hawaii. But he finds out that Ariel is in this sort of emotional affair with a married coworker named Jeff Miller.

And she's admitted to that, but she says it never got physical.

Gerhard told the jury how he found out about this relationship that was going on. Well, her office, her home office was in their bedroom. And so Gerhard said he heard them talking. He said they sounded very familiar with each other. And then one day she went on a work trip to South Africa and Jeff Miller was there.

And Gerhard said she would normally call in and check in every single day, but that there was one day that she didn't check in. And that raised a red flag for him. He said that he really got suspicious when Ariel got home. She was constantly on her phone.

She was just constantly on her phone. Was that on you more slow than usual? Yeah, much more than usual. And she would hide the screen from me. When she kept doing it and she kept being defensive, I unlocked her phone.

And it was you sleeping. He actually logged on to her WhatsApp and discovered all of these messages that were all day long. He'd be texting her good morning.

“But it wasn't just like a good morning text.”

It was like a whole day. Good morning. I had a great, you know, I stepped great. I'm looking forward to the day. I hope you're sleeping great.

She would respond. And then the whole day long until, you know, Good night at the end of the day. I didn't make you feel like I was devastated. According to both Gerhard and Ariel,

he confronted her about this relationship. She was having. She basically said, like, I'm so sorry. I can't believe I did this. And I'll do anything it takes to heal our marriage.

Things clearly sound intense in this marriage. What was going on the day of the hike? Well, the both of them actually said that around her birthday, which was March 24th, 2025, thing seemed to be getting better.

She had never been to Honolulu before.

And so they planned this birthday hike at the polypucotrile. He said that they had done hikes before. And so it wasn't anything unusual or sinister. He says that the day starts out. They grabbed coffee before they set out on the hike,

and he got an important email. That's right. He got a second part of his life insurance, which had come through. And this was worth $1.5 million.

Any told Ariel about it. And I was like, oh, you know what? The last of my life insurance just went through. They're asking me to document it. And so I was doing that.

I just wanted to let her know that I'm not like just texting or something. Like if we were out together. And so from that point on, if something happened to you and in an accident or whatnot,

she would get $1.5 million correct.

That's correct. And in this bit of detail, the defense is trying to plant the seed here that Ariel might have had a reason to do harm to Garerhart. Wow.

So they start arguing on the trail. Are they arguing about, are they going back again to this man, Jeff Miller? Right. Ariel brought up again going on another work trip.

And Garerhart was upset about it. He told her that she had to move out. And he said that he walked up the trail. And then he turned around. Ariel apologized.

They started to be nice to each other again. They were taking selfies. Then all of a sudden, he says that she tried to push him over that cliff. I felt like a shove,

and I was almost pushed over the edge. Who shoved you? Everything. What did you do right after that? Barely caught myself and turned around and looked at her and was like,

what the f*** was that? Did you move towards her? Yeah, I did. I started walking towards her. Is she saying anything?

Not initially, but I turned around. And as I'm starting to walk towards her, she starts yelling. Yeah, help me help me. What happens then?

She kind of grabs my wrists and throws herself on the ground and pulls me down with her. Then the defense asked Garerhart to go into some pretty graphic details about this situation. She grabbed your text testicles.

Is that right? Yes. And you said then you felt you got hit with the raw. Yes. Where did you get hit?

On the left side of my face. And then what happens? And I finally get the rock. What'd you do? I hit her with the rock.

“Garerhart, did you have any syringes on the mountain that day?”

No. Did you try to poke her or stab her with any syringes?

Garerhart said that he never intended to hurt his wife.

He said that he felt horrible about those injuries that she sustained and he insisted that it was out of self defense. One of the things, Mahayalani, that is a really big deal and all of this is Garerhart's son who you mentioned. He talked about on the stand the emotional face time calls.

He received from his dad after the incident. He says that his dad said that he was suicidal and that he admitted he tried to kill Ariel. That's really strong testimony coming from your own son.

“How did the defense handle that element of all of this?”

Well, the defense was very careful.

One of the most emotional parts of this whole trial is this son, Emil, a Garerhart son. He's now 20 years old. He was 19 at the time of the incident. And Garerhart got emotional on the stand. Again, when he talked about reaching out to his son,

he acknowledged that he was in severe emotional distress and that he contemplated jumping over that cliff. How do you feel about the fact that you put him in that position? I made that call to him. So many feelings because he saved my life that day.

I mean, he knocked the jump. He saved my life that day, but I put him in this position. Where he is now, where he thinks I tried to kill her. Then it was the prosecution's chance to cross examine Garerhart. He really pressed him on a lot of things.

He certainly did. The prosecutor did get Garerhart to see that there was nothing sexual in the messages between Ariel and Jeff Miller. He also got Garerhart to admit calling Ariel names when he confronted her about the affair.

“But in this confrontation, you called Ariel a lying bitch, right?”

I did call her that at some point, not in the beginning of the disclosure. You called her a whore, right? I did call her a whore at some point. Garerhart, for his part, said that he was upset about this relationship, but he repeatedly said he was not mad.

How did the prosecution challenge Garerhart's account of what he said happened on the hike? The last visual thing that the jurors saw were the side by side graphic images of Ariel and Garerhart. On the right was Garerhart's photo, he had some scratches on the side of his face. On the left side, they played several images of Ariel's bloody head, her bloody face. She had large bruises around her eye.

It was very stark to see the difference between Ariel and Garerhart in terms of injuries after that alleged attack. And the prosecution clearly is letting those images speak for themselves. Okay, well after about a month of this trial, the closing arguments are finished. So the jury has started deliberating and we can expect a verdict any time now. We will keep an eye out for that. Thank you so much for these updates, Mahalani.

Andrea, good to see you, Mahalani, thank you. After we taped this conversation on Tuesday afternoon, the jury reached a verdict. Let's listen to some of that. We, the jury in this case, finds the defendant guilty of attempted manslaughter based upon extreme mental or emotional disturbance. Did it for 826 by the floor person?

Dr. Garerhart Cohnick was found guilty of attempted manslaughter. We will catch you up on next week's episode. Up next, it's time for Date Line Roundup. We've got updates in the case of Sandra Birchmore and courtroom drama in the case of murdered Microsoft designer and dad, Jared Bright again. Plus, they are the two words that can make her break a verdict.

“Reasonable doubt, what you need to know before heading off for jury duty.”

Welcome back. Joining me for this week's Roundup is Date Line Producer Mike Nardy. Thanks for being here, Mike. Hi Andrea. Thanks for having me. Mike up first.

Thanks to a Massachusetts court filing.

We got our first glimpse this week of DNA evidence prosecutors hope to use in the case against

Matthew Farwell. You may remember he is the former stotent police officer accused of killing 23 year old teachers A Sandra Birchmore. He has pleaded not guilty. Mike, this is a case I've been covering from the beginning.

Give us some of the details of this one.

She was pregnant at the time. Her death was initially ruled a suicide by the state medical examiner. But years later, after a federal investigation, prosecutors charged Matthew Farwell with her murder. And the alleged motive is really interesting, Mike.

Matthew Farwell first met Sandra when she was a preteen.

And he was an instructor with the stotent police department's Explorer program. Prosecutors alleged Farwell groomed and sexually exploited Sandra when she was still under age. They say that part of his motive for killing her was because he was worried Sandra was about to disclose that alleged exploitation to authorities. Prosecutors say Farwell married man continued to have sex with Sandra as an adult and panicked when she got pregnant.

He wanted to cover his tracks. And that was another reason according to prosecutors. He may have had a reason to want her dead.

“So that's what we know so far about the prosecution's case.”

Mike, what did we learn this week? Well, at the end of March, Farwell's attorney filed a motion asking for him to be released ahead of his October trial. Farwell's defense team pushed back hard on the prosecution's case saying that recent testing revealed Farwell wasn't the father of her baby undercutting the alleged motive.

In response, prosecutors filed a motion to keep him behind bars. And to make their case, they included information about this alleged DNA evidence we didn't know about before. Let's talk about this DNA evidence. According to prosecutors, Farwell's DNA was found on a strap. They say he used to suffocate Sandra.

What they're calling the murder weapon in this case. That's right.

“So in their court filing prosecutors also mentioned new witnesses.”

Mike, do we know who these witnesses are? We don't know their names, but we do know some are stoton police employees. According to the filing, Farwell allegedly told one of these witnesses that a problem involving a relationship with a woman other than his wife was going to take care of itself. Another witness claims Farwell demonstrated the position that Sandra's body was found in,

even though that information was not made public at the time. Really big developments in this case. Right, right. And the state made it very clear this week.

Their stance is that the evidence they've gathered connecting him to Sandra's murder has only gotten stronger since he was first charged.

Matthew Farwell has denied any involvement in Birchmore's death. And he also denies having a sexual relationship with her when she was a minor. So we'll wait and see what the judge decides about his request to get out of jail. Next up, we're off to Jacksonville, Florida, where tensions were running high at a recent pretrial hearing for Shana Gardner and her husband, Mario Fernandez, Soldana. The couple is accused of hiring a gunman to murder Shana's ex-husband, Microsoft employee Jared Brightigan back in 2022.

They have pleaded not guilty. Mike, first remind us about this case. Sure, so on February 16th, 2022, Jared Brightigan had just taken his kids out to dinner after dropping the twins off at Gardner's house. Jared was driving home with one of his daughters when he came across a tire blocking the road. He got out of his car to move the tire and was gun down in the street.

So investigators, zeroed in on a man named Henry Tenon as the alleged gunman.

He originally pleaded guilty to second degree murder and told investigators he was hired by his landlord, Mario Fernandez, Shana Gardner's new husband.

That's right, and as part of his plea deal, Tenon agreed to testify against both Gardner and Fernandez. But just recently, Tenon withdrew his guilty plea and will no longer testify for the state in their cases against Gardner and Fernandez. Wow, this really shakes up the state's case. It does, and we got a window into the problems this is causing for attorneys last week at a pretrial hearing. Prosecutors told the judge they now wanted to try the couple separately in two different trials and that was news to the judge who seemed a little frustrated.

Okay, we want some I'm going to let me know. The prosecution suggested a new approach to jury selection, picking two juries from one jury pool, then trying Fernandez first followed by Gardner. And the judge seemed confused by that too and told the prosecution to go away and file a motion. A lot is up in the air, for this case, we'll keep an eye on that. Mike, thank you so much for bringing us all these stories.

Thanks for having me. For our final story this week, we're taking a closer look at a phrase you hear in just about every trial we cover here at Dateline.

“Reasonable doubt, you might remember Johnny Hopperon saying it at the O.J. trial.”

The prosecution has the burden of proving beyond a reasonable doubt or defense attorney Allen Jackson at Karen Reed's recent retrial. How much more reasonable doubt could there be? Most defense attorneys tell the jury that prosecutors have failed to prove their cases beyond a reasonable doubt.

And how is a juror supposed to know what counts as reasonable doubt? And what doesn't? Here to break it down for us is former federal prosecutor and veteran trial lawyer Drew Role. Welcome to the show, Drew. Thanks so much, Andrew. Good to be here. Yeah, I really am fascinated by this segment.

So, Drew, but, you know, I'm always thinking about the trials I've sat through.

And I remember listening to defense attorneys hammer home the phrase beyond a reasonable doubt and they're closing arguments. Absolutely. And I think for me as a prosecutor, I think every closing I sat through and when you hear the jury instructions around the standard reasonable doubt. Every time I heard it, I often thought, "Man, how are we going to meet this? Have we done it?" Okay, so let's drill down on reasonable doubt.

“I think we all feel like we know what it means, but tell us what does it mean in a courtroom?”

Certainly so, you know, reasonable doubt is the highest burden of proof we have in our criminal justice system in the United States. It acts as a constitutional safeguard, designed to protect the innocent from being wrongfully convicted really at bottom. And in practice, you know, the standard requires, you know, that the people, the prosecution to prove guilt so clearly that a reasonable person would feel firmly convinced, right, that they are guilty, not probably guilty, not possibly guilty or maybe, but really firmly and truly convinced of that guilt before they were able to find someone guilty at the end of the day.

Give us an example of what reasonable doubt might look like in everyday life. You know, it's a great question. I think a common sense approach to thinking about it with the caveat that judges may even define it differently. I think of it in terms of a major decision in your life, something consequential. You know, think of like purchasing a used car, for example, you'll hear the sales person's pitch.

“They'll just strive for the car's history, tell you what's never been in an accident, and you'll hear all of that, right?”

But if there's unanswered questions for you, at the end of that, you know, questions that would make a reasonable person stop and say, you know, when I'm not comfortable going forward with this, right? I have some hesitation, you know, I've heard everything, but I have some hesitation about it. That hesitation, that's reasonable doubt, or doubt based on reason, you know, from the evidence from the pitch you've heard or the lack of evidence. Yeah, and it's, it's interesting because, you know, sometimes juries, they might not believe the defendant, you know, but they feel like the government has not met that burden of proof.

And I've, I've interviewed yours where it's like raise your hand if you believe the defendant's story, and no one raises their hands. But they couldn't convict. Absolutely, and that's sort of a very powerful aspect of our criminal justice system.

And I've set through many trials, and I think there's, there are all unique in what ends up being sort of a critical factor for the jury.

I mean, we talked about Ellen Jackson and the Karen Reed trial off at the top, and I feel like that's such a good example of reasonable doubt, you know, because of the allegations of mistakes by law enforcement. It's exactly the right strategy in certain cases. It becomes a less about what the evidence is and how it was how it was gathered, right? I mean, Johnny Cochrane strategy and the OJ Simpson trial menu.

“I was a young boy sort of one of the first trials I'd ever witnessed was, if you can't trust the messenger, if you can't trust the messenger, can you trust the message?”

I had a case a few years ago where it was the defenses turn, and they asked the judge to dismiss the case, and he did. He said, you know, what I've seen from the prosecution does not meet this burden of proof. And so it was, it was really fascinating, like everyone, you know, jaws dropped, like, wait, what? Absolutely, and this again will depend on the state or the court hearing the case, you know, but federally, for example, we have procedural mechanisms where even if a jury comes back and finds guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, a judge who sat through the trial and hurt all the same evidence has the power

to find that actually no reasonable juror based on this record could have found the defendant guilty.

Yeah, it happened in the Jam Master J murder case. This is a 2002 killing of the run DMCDJ that went and solved for decades until charges were finally brought in 2020.

A jury eventually convicted two men in 2024, but when it came to one of those defendants, Carl Jordan Jr. a judge later stepped in and overturned the conviction. Full disclosure that that's the case that my former office sort of worked on that I wasn't involved in, but I think it's another example right of of where a judge who sees the evidence, you know, just as the jury has. But has the expertise and does not see that the evidence met, you know, particular element that's necessary. One line for anyone who becomes a juror and hears that phrase reasonable doubt, what's your advice?

It really would be to remember that the job isn't just resolved in case, but to decide whether the prosecution has proved it and convinced you and taking that hesitation away from you.

And probably trust your gut, can you sleep at night if you put this person away?

So the lawyer in me, both sides would say, you know, the judge would say, don't, don't think about the punishment aspect of it, although that's human too. But I do think trust your gut, having listened to the evidence and use your common sense is really the load star for any juror.

“You have lived life experience that's given you common sense, and you can identify when you have that hesitation about something and so you should listen to it.”

Yeah, I love that. Thank you so much, Drew, for breaking this down for us, fascinating conversation. Thanks for having me.

That's it for this episode of Dateline True Crime Weekly.

To get ad-free listening for all our podcasts, subscribe to Dateline Premium. Dateline's missing in America podcast has been nominated for a webby award in the Crime and Justice podcast category. We can't win without you, so please go online and vote for Dateline. The deadline is Thursday, April 16th. We've included the voting link in our episode description.

“Coming up this Friday, I have a brand new episode I think you'll find fascinating.”

I traveled all the way to Taiwan to retrace the steps of Alice Koo, the missing woman at the center of this case. It is a story about sisters, secrets, and a quest for justice. I came away thinking you remind me of Hannibal Lecter, real? I'm silence of the lamp, see there was a creepiness to him that was unavoidable. You can watch The Gorge this Friday at 9/8 central on NBC, or you can stream it starting Saturday on peacock.

I hope you'll join us. Thanks for listening.

“Dateline True Crime Weekly is produced by Carson Cummins, Caroline Casey and Keanu Reed.”

Our associate producers are L.A. Gladstone Groth and Arya Young. Our senior producers, Liz Brown Curl Off, production and fact checking help by Audrey Abraham's. Veronica Mosaica is our digital producer. Rick Juan is our sound designer, original music by Jessie McKinti, Paul Ryan is executive producer and Liz Cole is senior executive producer of Dateline.

It's a gross favor. I'm Craig Melv, cheers. Cheers.

I've always been a glass half woke on the guy, and now I'm talking to some people who look at the world that way too.

Some really fascinating folks who share their defining moments, their trials, challenges, their stories, their funny, and my candy. So I hope you'll join me each week and who knows. You might just come away with your own glass half full. Search glass half full with Craig Melv and from today on YouTube and wherever you get your podcasts.