Talking Dateline: Conversations at CrimeCon

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Terms apply. See app for details. Hey, everybody. It's Josh Mayacoats. And today we have a special edition of Talking Date Line.

This week, instead of going behind the scenes of a particular episode, we want to take you back to a live conversation from crime-con 2020-6. In Las Vegas, Nevada. Now, I'm known at crime-con as the mayor of crime-con. I did not give myself that title.

I actually would be thrilled if I could get rid of that title, and somebody else could take it. But at the moment, I haven't. So I'm not the self-appointed mayor. I'm appointed by others.

So at this session of crime-con, I sat down with Ellison Barber, who was an NBC News correspondent, but also the host of the Netflix Original Podcast called Allegedly. That's produced by our colleagues at NBC News Studios. Now Ellison and I set down and discussed all things date line.

Everything from how date line began covering murder cases. Now, I got my own start to my colleague and my friend and me. Keith Morrison. I don't even like to say his name, I alone. We talked about all of that.

So, here we go. [applause] Hello. Hi, everybody. I cannot see you because of these lights,

but I hear you out there.

“So, one of you made me the key to crime-con city key.”

[laughter] It says mayor on it here. I just want you to know I have it, and it's a cherished possession, although I do believe that the mayor of crime-con

like other offices that we all hold dear, should probably have term limits. Anyway, but thank you. And wonderful to see everybody. Let's talk date line.

Yes. When you think about your career, why did you want to start covering these cases

and focus on crime in the first place?

I did not want to start covering these cases. Really? Who made you? Our now retired executive producer, got him David Corvo.

He said to me one day, like I've been at daylight in 10 years, and we've done as many of you probably remember. We were doing all kinds of stories within an hour, and we were doing like five or six stories within those 60 minutes,

and they were all unrelated. And he said to me, "We're going to start trying to do these sort of murder cases over an hour." I don't know if you think you are.

What are we doing that? I don't think it's going to want to watch that. Clearly, yeah, you want to come to me for ideas about where America is going. And now, look where we are, right?

So I certainly did not see this county, but then I went to Reno, Nevada, and I did the story of Brianna Denison, who had vanished. And then subsequently was found murdered,

and then we did the story again. And now that there had been that sort of change to it.

And that was sort of the first,

“I think it was the first hour on a murder case that I did.”

And the reaction from the audience, there was not any mistaking that. And that was one. And also, I got some satisfaction out of covering that story in a way

that I had not anticipated. And then we were kind of off and running, because all the other stories were getting a sort of similar response. And it was a, I certainly realized we had sort of

tapped into something that I had not seen out there. So I can't wait to get any credit for this. Because it was not my idea. I thought they were nuts. I have you stayed with it.

How has that changed for you? You know, when I started in journalism,

I was, first I was working on the assignment desk

in the middle of the night and, you know, weekends and that kind of thing. And the first job that I was promoted to, as an ABC news, and I was the author, a reporter covering the US House, which I did for three years back in the late 70s.

And I really thought at the time that sort of covering Washington was the bill on, and all of journalism. And then if I was lucky, and I'd be the White House correspondent someday, something like that.

But I was a political reporter for a long time. And then I came to the deadline and did these other kinds of stories for a couple of years. And then we started on crime and the criminal justice system. And I saw that connected with people in a way

that Washington coverage didn't. But that was a way of sort of like recognizing. I sort of came to recognize how, you know,

“if you want to understand human emotion,”

if you want to understand, you know, love and hate and greed and lust, and the things that drive people, then you need to be covering crime, which I didn't realize, but it's unquestionably true.

And it's been very, very, very satisfying. It has been.

You had the first live event in Nashville.

Tell us about that. I mean, I imagine some of the people here had been there as well. What was that like for you? Are they going to be more? Yes, they're going to be more.

There's going to be another one. I don't know exactly when it's going to be. I don't think it's going to be in Nashville again. I think it's going to be somewhere else, but I'm not sure where that is.

But look, it's, I mean, it was like sort of concentrated crime con because a lot of people are here for a lot of different reasons. But everybody who was there in Nashville at that event was there just to see us and talk with us.

And that was great. There was a very long period of time in television, in which you really could only guess that what the audience was thinking or what they liked. And that was through the ratings.

But, of course, that's a really imprecise way of doing it. Because if there's, you know, if there's a football game on opposite you, you're not going to do as well as if some other program is on. And that was only everything you do with the, how well you're presenting your story.

So, events like this and the thing we did in Nashville and social media like sort of changed everything. All of them are opportunities for me and for all of us to sort of figure out like what you were thinking. And that's a much more precise way.

And for me an interesting way of finding that out. Then, you know, just sort of reading the numbers. When you think about your time at date line, if you could go back and talk to yourself in those early days. Yeah.

“What is the advice you would give yourself from today?”

Do a better job of bluffing Keith's car. Yeah. Have you started to get better at that? I have. It's like a whole wax on wax off thing.

But, yeah, he was against very angry. Is it a Lamborghini? What are we doing? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Let's go with that, sure. Like, what is, what did I get my earlier? First of all, like, I didn't, you know, I didn't see this coming. I would say, now, like, I wish I had started this sooner.

You know, I sort of came to date line in the middle of OJ. It was all the trials already going on. So, I didn't, I didn't do the direct trial coverage. Stone Phillips was our anchor then. And he did most of it.

And I did a couple of, like, sort of like, just side stories to it. But, yeah, I would, my only wishes that we'd started doing this on this sooner. Because there's a lot of untold stories out there. And they connect with people and they tell you things about what's happening in America that sort of wasn't getting covered for a long time.

I always say, whenever people ask, because people have known for years that I'm like,

I relaxing time is that I watch date line. And it's like, if I'm coming back from a long work trip, whatever, I'm just like, I'm going to relax and just watch date line. And I often will joke about that because I know a lot of people don't understand why. So, interested in it.

And it's easier to just be like, I know I'm a freak and kind of like leave it at that. But I feel like everybody in this room knows. And the way that I feel about it is that I'm like, there are so many layers as to why people are interested in covering it, watching it, reading it, following cases. And for me, it manifests in so many different ways.

“And one of them is that I really believe when bad things happen,”

information, factual information, is the best chance we have at preventing bad things from happening in the future. I also think that I want to be aware of when bad things happen, who the people are. And I want to honor them and I want to hold space for them and their families. And I want to remember the next time I see a statistic that it is real people and real names and people who matter. I also want to have an awareness of what a red flag maybe looks like.

And I also want to have a better understanding of the criminal justice system that's so big and so robust as the potential to impact everyone.

The great thing is over two hours, you can do all of that.

Yeah. Unless you are very well known, your murder is probably not going to get a tremendous amount of ink in your local paper and probably not a lot of time on television. The great thing about date line is that we can talk not just about the actual crime and the TikTok of how it was solved, but also who the person was, not just how they died, how they lived, what they meant to other people in their life. What went wrong, how this could possibly have happened.

And that is a huge luxury in journalism to have that much real estate to tell a story. And that much time to do it. Because sometimes it's a month, two months, three months. You have a lot of time to assemble that story and get around. Well, some of this stuff I'm working on right now, you won't see until the fall.

Let me ask you about Keith Morrison.

“For starters, do you want to clear up if it is best friends or archenemesis?”

Okay, we really, I do owe you all this answer. Yeah, I hate him. Sadly, that's not true. He is the sweetest guy. Everybody at date line of doors, including me.

And the great thing about Keith is that whether I have been posting, when I'm going to his house,

which is always like I picture of it, it's a castle.

He's got a moat or it's in, you know, I've been doing that. And I put up all these Photoshop pictures of us during the Olympics, posting our heads on other people's bodies. All this other stuff. He's been remarkably tolerant because like when I started posting the Olympics stuff, we're about four days into it.

And this is why I'm still on Twitter. And it was getting this giant response. And I thought to myself, yeah, you know, maybe I should have said something to him about this. And then I hadn't.

“And then he came to me out a week later and he was like, what are you doing?”

And I was like, yeah, I just rolled with it. You don't have to do anything. I'm saying he's like, okay. So was he like my mom and then leaned? Did he lean?

He did. He was leaning something, yeah. But he's, yeah, he's been very tolerant of all my antics. And he is exactly who you see on television. And he's a wonderful guy.

You know, I don't think I need to tell you, you guys this. As great as Keith's voice is for television and it is great. It is like perfect for podcasts. So let's have a pause. How many of you have I put into a deep sleep?

Yeah, okay. All right.

“But now how many of you has Keith put into a deep sleep?”

Yeah, that's, yeah. Ask the man'sard. Yeah. Coming up, Ellison and I talk about the creation of my podcast, Missing in America.

And also some cases that I'm keeping my eye on. Hey guys, Willie guys here. Thank you for reminding you to check out the Sunday Sit Down podcast. On this week's episode, I get together with the talented charming and hilarious Tracy Ellis Ross

to talk about her Broadway debut in a one-woman show. And the new season of her travel series that has Tracy seeing the world solo. You can get our conversation for free wherever you download your podcasts. Talk to us about the way Dateline has sort of evolved over the years, right? Like I think of Dateline and I watch it every night before I go to sleep.

Like clockwork. So like I'm so hooked and committed. But I also know I'm constantly interested in all of the different side projects that have come out of it. One that I know you have been really involved with in her passion about is the Missing in America pod.

Right. Talk to me about the way that it is evolved, where does that sound? Now this began back in 2005 when I did a story.

I probably the first story on television and one of the first stories everywhere about how TV

was not covering anybody except Missing White Women. And that was in 2005. And from that came a couple of things. One is that conversation, that story, that spawned the black and missing foundation, which is a wonderful outcome of that.

They also led to our digital series called Missing in America, which actually ended up finding a couple of people who were missing and solving a couple of cases. Not many as I would like, but some. And from that came this podcast series.

For you and you touched on it a little bit, but when you look back at the stories that you have told particularly in terms of people who are missing, what are the ones that really stay with you today?

who was when Missing from anapolis Maryland, like the day after the 1980 election. She was a campaign worker, Republican Party, and she just vanished off the face of the earth. And there's been one suspect during that time,

but there's never been any arrest.

And she's never been found. No trace of her has ever been found. And your daughters have sort of, you know, they've grown up always kind of wondering what happened to their arm. And what was so personal to me about that story

was that I was covering politics back in 1979, 1980. And I was pretty sure I had met her. Like she wasn't a friend of mine, she wasn't a source. But I knew what she had worked for the RNC on the Senate campaign side. And I'd covered the Senate campaigns in 1980.

And I was like, we were in the same room. Like I was introduced to her. When I saw that story, which was many years later,

“that's why I wanted to do it for Missing in America.”

And I would love it if that, you know, if our story had sort of kicked loose some tip that had changed things, but so far it hasn't happened. Every time we do one, and we put that episode to bed,

the producer and I always say to each other,

"Wouldn't it be great if this solved it?" I mean, I really can't think of anything that would make me happier than having some piece of information that came through and resulted in either somebody being found alive or somebody being found so that their family could sort of go from that point.

And maybe solve the case as well, maybe lock somebody up. Are there any cases that you will tell us or on your radar that you haven't covered, but you want to? Well, my friend Madison McGee has a podcast called Ice Cold Case

and what she's trying to solve the murder of her father. She's not a crime come this year, unfortunately,

“but I did a thing with her in previous years.”

And when she, what she finally does eventually solve that case and figure out what happened with her father, like that's going to be a data line story. Absolutely, this was one reason why I keep sort of like, expect every time I talk to her that she's going to say,

"Well, we know the answer." And so far, they don't know the answer, but they're definitely getting closer. And she is also sort of lit a fire under law enforcement over the years.

So I'm sort of looking forward to see what happens with Madison. When we get back, I answer some questions from the audience. They have a lot of them. Do you want to start us off on the questions? Yeah, who is a question?

Right over here. Yes, the law. Hi. This has been such an engaging session. Thank you so much on data line and on these programs.

The people that are featured are the people that are relentless and the people that their families are relentless. The people that have the resources to be relentless. The people that are fairer in complexion. Is it something that date line?

And is it something that these programs are actively thinking about about how to elevate those stories that may be more come from populations that are not as fairer skined, parts of their stories that may be more problematic. You know, lower socioeconomic backgrounds,

but these are still very important stories to tell. Yeah, there was a time on day line which we would not do a story in which the person who had died was doing anything that might have exposed them to harm. So that all sorts of stories about people in the commercial sex business

and people who had done any kind of... Who had a criminal record for things like that. That sort of ruled them up. I was a long time ago. We were really not doing that anymore. I mean, I did a story some years ago about the girls on the West

Mesa outside Albuquerque. All of them were street sex workers. And that's a case we're still on top of because it's not clear that it's been solved or not. Nobody's been locked up for it.

Maybe they knew who did it, maybe they didn't. Maybe that person's dead, maybe they don't know.

“I think the idea that the victim couldn't have been doing anything illegal”

no longer rules you out of date line. And certainly, for the last 20 years, I mean, since I did the story about Tamika Houston, the story which I was saying sort of spawn on the black and missing relation, we're definitely not covering only fairer skin people.

We're doing stories that look like America.

And I've never been proud of that.

Yeah. Yeah, I know for us we have an episode on Gil Go Beach. And I thought so much about what I'd heard his daughter say in a documentary about how he didn't see the women he'd killed as people or as human.

“And I took a moment and I think it's in our show of where I sat and went through”

because I researched everything I could find about all of the people who were killed beyond what they'd done for work, beyond the way that they'd died. And usually I'm so good at not crying in stories and I think my voice cracked where I choked up even reading it. But just going through and focusing on one of those people where it was like

her family she'd grown up in North Carolina and around the time of her funeral. There'd been stuff that I'd read about where one of the pastors who done her funeral had talked about how even when she didn't have a lot. One of the things she loved was giving gifts especially to her nieces and around Christmas time.

And how that was like her favorite time because even when she didn't have enough

she would always want to find ways to give them gifts and to take care of

the people around her. And like having moments and stories and that's the thing that I've always loved watching date line as a viewer is that I feel like I usually walk away up hearing snippets of who that person was and remembering that. And I think also for us it's like I love when people send story tips and

ideas like I have a running list that I've started of people as they've started watching of being like hey what about this case? What about this case? And I'm like collecting and saving in a Google document because all of the stories. It's like I want to tell all of them and constantly for me every time I hear a story.

I tend to see and read things about people who have lost their lives and just think I wish I had the opportunity to meet them. And wanting to know who they are beyond this like horrible thing that happened to them.

“And I think that is what's like so true about like the true crime community.”

It's like most people are coming from that place of really caring and caring about people and I think I see I think constantly how much I see that care in your reports on date line. And even in the podcast all the ones that you've done on missing in America. Like Daniel Robinson who went missing the five year anniversary of him

going missing. Great. He was working on a geology site and going missing. And I know you covered that. It's an important story.

Yeah. It's a great question. Thank you. Yeah. Thank you.

We're here. Hi. Hi. My name's Emily. And I'm a little bit more of a journalism related question.

I'm a little picky about my true crime.

“And one thing that I think date line does really well is by the end of the episode.”

They answer all the questions that I had. And I get very frustrated and other shows are I'm like, Oh my gosh, why didn't we talk about this? You should not watch those other shows. But I was just wondering the process that your production,

you and your production team take like I think this must be thoughtful. That you're anticipating the questions that audience has and kind of, what does that process look like? Well, first of all, like, you know, I'm doing the interviews. Like, I'm trying to ask the questions that you would want me to ask, right?

I mean, the questions sort of naturally comes up at that time. So I'm thinking about that. But then once we've sort of written it, even before it's all been sort of cut together, like we were starting looking at, you know, sort of what are the, what are the loose ends here?

And after time goes by, like you realize there are certain questions that

the audience is always going to have.

Like, what happened to these couples children? Like, he's dead. She's locked up or the other way around. So it's aware where are they and who's raising them. Frequently, if there was any kind of pet involved,

people want to know what happened. That's a regular thing. But also, they're going to want to know what the stage of this person's appeals are. So we know that we know to put that in. And so we're, we're, we're reading it.

We're reading through the script. We're going through it for fact checking reasons to make sure that like all the dates and charges and, you know, people's titles, you know, we're checking all of that. And then we're also checking to make sure that we don't raise sort of loose ends in the story telling that don't get paid off.

Because, you know, if we say she was just starting a business called this. Like, if we say that, we're going to have to say her partner took over the business and still running it or the business went away. But we can't just bring it up and then let it drop. So we do pay a lot of attention to that.

You guys set yourselves apart in that department. Thank you. Thank you. Okay, that's it for talking date line for this week, this special edition. Now, be on the lookout for part two of my conversation with Alison. When we do a deep dive into the justice system.

And we talk about the difficulties with stalking laws. Also, about how grief affects every family differently.

And many of those families end up doing incredible things in the face of terrible laws.

You don't want to miss that. Thanks, everybody, for listening. And remember, if you have any questions about our stories or about anything else, you can write to us on social media at @DatelineNBC. You can also leave us a voice mail at 212-413-5252

You can also watch the video version of Talking Date Line.

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See you Friday's on date line on NBC.