Talking Dateline: Out of the Darkness

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Our correspondent on this one is Josh Mankowitz, and this is for his episode called "Out of the Darkness, let's talk date line Josh, hey, how are you?" I'm good, I'm ready. One housekeeping item, if you haven't seen it, you can watch the episode of Peacock or listen to it in the date line podcast feed and then come right back here.

Also, we will have an extra clip from Josh's interview with the victim Bob Pointer's mother. And then, Josh, you have a special talking date line challenge for me. I'm excited about this. Yes, I do. It's something we've discussed previously, although you've certainly forgotten about it.

I actually forgot about it too, but it's going to be fun. Okay, I'm ready. Before we dive into this episode, and I have a lot of thoughts. Josh, give us a very quick overview of what happened. Well, this was in the 2016 in Royc City, Texas, sort of classic, Texas, small town. A young woman named Chasey Pointer married to a fire captain who was considerably older.

“She was 29, I think he was like 46, 47, something like that.”

She calls her husband because her Jeep has gotten stuck on this muddy road. So he comes out there, and he gets shot. And from the beginning, you know, we see, we on date line, viewers see

this story unfold almost entirely via first responder and police body cams.

And she's unspooling the story of what happened. And sort of from the beginning, she can't get her own story straight. I mean, first she says, there's no one happened. Then she saw a shadow, she saw a shadowy figure. Then it was a man, she didn't know who it was.

Then later she does know who it is. It's this guy that she was having an affair with. I mean, it is a classic case of not just spousal murder, but of a murder or kind of not thinking about the story that they were going to tell until the absolute minute they were telling it. And so you are left watching this and just kind of shaking your head.

She was convicted and, you know, it's a terrible tragedy. And again, there's a thing called divorce. Yes, yes, that we mentioned often on this program.

So Josh, I have to say she had me at first,

Chasey, because the way this show opens is very terrifying, you know, the out of breath. And I'm one call the running, I mean, it's like how every lifetime movie starts out. There's a woman running through the woods. And then when the call dropped out, I thought Chasey was done. I thought somebody was after her.

Then I was so surprised to see that Chasey was alive and she was then talking to investigators eventually. And that's where this her behavior really comes in and the breathing. And I'm like, yeah, the breathing. And then it was like, stop.

And then it was starting and at first you kind of had me. But the more it went on, the more I started to say, this girl needs a rasey. Yeah, that wonderful top is courtesy of Jessica De Verra, who's a sensational producer. Yeah, she's amazing. And, you know, Jessica, I did this story.

And like, we didn't have a couple of the things that people usually have. Like, we certainly didn't have any of you with her. And you almost didn't need it, though, Josh, because we had such a sense of her telling. We had her telling this crazy story. And very herself.

Right, we had her telling her own story, which, you know, at the beginning sounds crazy.

“And like, the worst thing has happened to her.”

And then the more she tells it, the crazier it sounds, the crazier she sounds,

And then you just think, okay, well, I mean, this person's a liar.

And that's exactly where prosecutors came down. You know, what I love about investigators are the little things that they pick up on. And that, you know, me at least, I don't know about you. But I'm not a, you know, a trained investigator. So when they, when they say to her, you know, they say to her that the blood should have drip down.

Right. And then also that they could tell that, you know, she was standing too close. Like, she was standing close to Bob when the shot was fired. But she said that she wasn't. And so they said, they told her, quote, you're full of crap.

Yeah. Well, I mean, you know, by then, she'd already told these multiple stories. Right.

“And the whole thing was, you know, why didn't this woman ask for a lawyer at some point?”

Why didn't she keep her mouth shut? At least minimize what she was saying because then she starts going into that they're having, they have a bad marriage. And then, well, she says when I married him, I was young and stupid. And I think an argument could be made that nothing had changed.

That was, I think, still true on the day of her husband's death. And custody issues. I mean, all the things that lead to these day lines, you know, she and her husband, her husband seems like a great guy from everything we were able to determine. Not long after they were married, she starts stepping out on him, not with just the guy who ended

up killing him. One of your other guys, too, to the point where her husband installed, I think, a surveillance camera outside their front door, not to catch bad guys and not to keep the house safe, but to get a picture of one of Jayce's lovers, which I think he did. Oh, they're worse.

They're a bunch. Yeah. Yeah. And she said to one of the lovers, oh, I wrote, oh, I'm D. She didn't say, oh, I wrote, oh, I'm actually on my notes, I wish he'd run out of air in a fire.

Yeah. Yeah. She was hoping that her husband would die in the line of duty, which prosecutors believe that this was all about the insurance money, and that if he had died in the line of duty,

“I think maybe she would have gotten some additional payment, too.”

But, you know, I mean, they also told different stories about, like, the, he wasn't supposed to be killed. That was originally. It was just about scaring him. This was about giving the husband a good talking to, telling him, you know, to stay away

from her, because there was this sort of mythology that she created, that he was violent and controlling and abusive, and physically and verbally, and there just wasn't any evidence of that. I mean, we see that a lot. Nobody seemed to believe that that was true about Mr. Pointer.

Like, don't you agree, though? We see that all the time where women will get the lover on board, you know, to do harm to their husband, because they're saying he's doing this to me, and that to me, and he's abusive. I mean, the reason that works is that it's true so much of the time.

That's the thing. Right? Oh, yes. Oh, 100%.

“Women very rarely commit homicide, right?”

They almost always find somebody else to do it for them.

That's sort of how this usually goes, right? And one of the things that moves man to be the agent of somebody else, you know, in a murder is, well, this person is hurting me, this person is abusive, this person is beating me, and then guys want to sort of feel like the white knight here. Yeah, and I actually took me down memory lane a little bit with a story that I did.

This was about an army soldier. His name was Army Sergeant Vincent Gausland Jr., and he was shocked to death on a remote Kentucky road after stopping to help what appeared to be a stranded motorist at first. It looked like a random act of violence, but investigators, you know, after he was shot and covered a calculated murder for higher plot, orchestrated by his wife and her lover,

prosecutors said that she lured her husband to the isolated location where the lover then killed him, and they both pleaded guilty. - So I mean, it's a very similar story. - I mean, you change the names. That's the chasing Bob Pointer story.

- Yeah. - That was the one where I had this sweat be video. I don't know if you ever saw that. - I remember that. - I remember that. - I remember that. - I remember that.

- I remember that. - I remember that. - I remember that. - I remember that. - Yeah, 'cause I was trying to do interviews.

They were like a million sweat bees.

- The thing about you, that's different from, well, just for example me, is that you looked cool and elegant swatting away the bees. Like that's it, you know, whereas I would have looked like a character, you know, in a cartoon,

leaving an outline of their body as they go through a wall.

I think I probably look like Elaine from Seinfeld,

“you know, her like, you know, that really weird dance,”

that she does, that's like on all the memes. I think I looked more like that. - No, I think you look better. - You looked better. - Speaking of TV shows,

I definitely was thinking a lot about orange is the new black, the TV show. - Because of the sheer number of times, Josh, that you mentioned orange were, and how people would look in orange.

I mean, can I go through them first?

- Sure, sure. - Sure, sure. - So you had, okay, so first you had, I've rock and orange jumpsuit, orange is the new black, the male version, that was from Michael Garza, the lover. - The killer. - The killer.

Then you had Chasey saying, "I don't look good in orange." And then you had one more, you had Michael Garza actually in the orange, in the mug, and you said that he looked as about, about as good as you'd think in orange.

- It's not every day that you hear a killer, say,

“I'll do it, and I'll rock in orange jumpsuit, right?”

In other words, I'm gonna get caught, right? And then they do get caught, and then you do see them in orange jumpsuit. - Yeah, yeah, yeah. - Okay, Josh, when we come back,

we will have more from your interview with Bob Pointer's mom, and her name is Candie. - Hey guys, Willie guys, Tear, reminding you to check out the Sunday Sit Down podcast on this week's episode, I get together with Tony,

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Her name was Mickey Costanzo, just 16. She didn't have far to go, seemed perfectly safe. Until it wasn't what happened to Mickey. I'm Keith Morrison, and this is five miles from home, and all new podcasts from date line.

- Listen to all episodes of five miles from home now, wherever you get your podcasts. (upbeat music) - The other thing that was really crazy about this was Michael Garza's alibi.

I mean, we've heard a lot of alabies over the years, but he was milking a cow. - Yeah, yeah, in the middle of the night, yeah. - What? - Yeah, that was, you know, again, this is a,

you know, you hear cops sometimes say, we don't catch the smart ones, right? Sometimes they get to the smart ones, but like a lot of times when they catch, are literally people who, like Chase,

he tell like three different stories in the first three hours,

or actually probably less than that. And Michael Garza who, you know, says things, like I rockin' orange jumpsuit, and is alabies, I was milking a cow. Like, you wanna have, you know, your cell phone

“at some different location at that moment, you know?”

You know, you wanna have somebody testify, I don't know, you know, Mike and I were having a beer at the Saloon, right? But, you know, I mean, you know, when you are dumb enough to commit murder

and dumb enough to immediately lie about it in a way that's gonna get caught, and dumb enough to hire a guy like that, you kind of deserve what you get. - Yeah, I mean, the whole plan was just so full filled up.

- Yeah, and sadly, though, the result is like, you know, there's kids without a dad, and yeah, and mother, the mother with otters son. - You know, Bob Pointer was one of those guys who did not lose touch with his mom over the years.

Like, they spoke all the time. I mean, I think safe to say she was like, maybe his best friend, which is why interviewing her was sort of, I thought, paramount in this. - Josh, we have an extra clip

that from your interview with Bob Pointer's mother, we are going to take a listen.

about what he was like as a dad,

so I guess they had a son. - To add to them, oh my God. He adored her. I mean, from the get-go, I mean, she looked at us like him. She loved, I mean, he just dowed it on her. He would cook, teach her how to cook,

and then Bobby loved her cook, Bob loved her cook.

“So he even said, oh, mom, I think of a couple of weeks”

he'd be before he passed away. He said, I wanna get to add a son of a chef's coat. She likes to watch the food network and all that, and I wanna, we started research her way to buy her one. - He'd let us and put red nail polish on her.

- Oh, totally, there's pictures of him with his glasses, I'm painting his nails or her nails, and he's painting her nails. I thought, oh Lord, he was just, I could gentle, gentle soul. He was like a gentle giant, I would call him sometimes,

'cause he was so big. - One of the things that comes out of that, I think, is that, you know, he was a very involved dad, not just to the daughter he had with JC, who was, I think, six and a half when he was killed,

but also to his two older daughters, that he had, with his first wife, he was a big part of all of their lives. And, you know, again, that's sort of a extra tragedy out of all this, and we talk about all this out,

kind of the ripple effect of murder. - Here's like maybe a lesson. Why do spouses allow, you know, increases in life insurance policies, or more life insurance policies,

when they maybe aren't in the best marriage, or maybe they know someone's cheating in the relationship.

And then you always hear these stories

about just months before the murder, or like sometimes it's like days, they up their policy, or added more policies. - Look, you know, another case that always sort of springs to mind, happened a long time ago here in California,

the murder was a, had been a jeopardy champion. And he poisoned his wife with nicotine. And she was sick for a long time, and the doctors couldn't figure out what was wrong with her. And her friends were saying to her,

"I can tell you what this is. "This is your husband, he's trying to kill you. "He's making you six somehow." And she said to them, "Oh, he wouldn't do that, "he loves me, that wouldn't happen."

But she took him off her life insurance. She made her sister the beneficiary of her life insurance, and she didn't know. - She didn't know. - He did not know. - No, you gotta, you gotta tell, you gotta tell the husband.

- A couple of days after she died, he's on the phone with the life insurance company. He's like, "I'm sorry, what, right?" So, like, I mean,

“if you're gonna do that, you need to say something.”

My point is thinking to yourself, I need to protect myself, is one thing, or I'm uncomfortable with this, or I'm gonna take my husband off the insurance. That's sort of easier to do than to confront someone

and say, "I want you to know something. "I've taken you off my insurance." And the reason is, I don't think you have my best interest in heart, that is so much harder than calling the insurance company and saying,

it's the beneficiary to my family member. - Very, very true, very true. You know, it was interesting, Josh, that the jury said, in the end, that they didn't think Chasey killed Bob for money.

Which I didn't really get, because she still, you know, gain this money, and then the jury, I didn't, did you get that? - I mean, that is correct, that the jury did not believe that.

Prosecutors did believe that this was, this was for financial gain, he had a insurance policy between $500,000 and $1,000, but you know, I would say that it's reasonable to believe that they didn't really know why they were killing it.

I mean, to suggest that this was just for money.

I never believed that this was about her

and Michael Garza being together. I mean, she had a bunch of other guys that she was saying, to like, we're gonna get this money and run off together. Like, she wanted to be free.

“I think she thought maybe the money might make life easier,”

but like the idea that the money was the motive for this, I don't know, but yes, she was not convicted of murder for financial gain. - All right, Josh, up next, you are going to take over for a special,

talking, date line challenge. You do not want to miss this. - Honey, did you invite the minions over? - Well, you know how we talked about getting Wi-Fi from Exfinity? - Yeah.

- I ordered it this morning was online in minutes, then they showed up. - So they just came over to use the Wi-Fi?

- Better not to know.

“- Get online in minutes with same-day Wi-Fi from Exfinity,”

plus lock in your price for five years,

and see minions and monsters only in theaters. Exfinity, imagine that. Restrictions apply not available in all areas, learn more at Xfinity.com/samedayWifi. - Okay, welcome back to Talking DayLight. Now, instead of taking your social media questions,

Andrea and I are going to play a game, and it is one that you and I talked about a year ago, back on this podcast. So let's go back in time here. Andrea was talking to me about a lawyer,

attorney that she had interviewed for her episode called Poison Twist, which is about a chiropractors poisoning death in New York. So let's listen to what Andrea and I were talking about after that on Talking DayLight. - She's fellow Canadian, and I picked up on her accent

immediately during our interview. She was saying a boat, and you know, I said, "You're Canadian, aren't you?" She's from Niagara Falls. - Can you automatically instantly tell

when somebody's Canadian?

- I feel like I have that radar, you know, that special, is, would you call it radar?

“I don't know if that's the right term, but, um, absolutely.”

I mean, I can pick out actors, I can pick out lawyers, I can pick out anybody pretty much instantaneously. As soon as, like, you know, I just need a few words, choice words, and then we're good, I know. - This feels, by the way, like a social media contest

that is upcoming. All right, I can see this coming. I'm gonna be the moderator. So, yes, this is the, this kind of thing is sort of why Talking DayLight exists in my view.

So we have outsourced a task to some of our fabulous date line ambassadors, the people who tell you on social media, this episode, or that episode, is upcoming, and who's gonna be on. And we have had some American and Canadian

date line viewers and listeners. - No, what if I get this wrong?

- Send us voice recordings.

- Oh, my God. - Oh, the same sentence. And the sentence is, for the record, I have no idea what you're talking about. Sorry.

- Um, now I'm feeling the pressure, though, 'cause of that statement that I made. - So, Andrea, we're gonna play some clips of people saying that line. And you, little miss, Canadian, and can identify

other Canadians, you're gonna guess whether the person speaking is American or Canadian. Here is, clip number one. - For the record, I have no idea what you're talking about. Sorry.

- American or Canadian. - I mean, she sounds, like that's not how they would say in my town, so she sounds American to me. - American is correct. - Yay, okay, okay, okay.

- Okay, that's good. - All right, okay. - clip number two. - For the record, I have no idea what you're talking about.

Sorry, she's definitely Canadian. - The sorry, gave it away.

“- I think both, the sorry and the about.”

- Okay, so, that person is Canadian. - Okay. - Yes, so far, you're adding up your banding of thousands. Yeah, would you like to risk it all, Andrea, and go for clip number three?

- I would. - Here we go. - For the record, I have no idea what you're talking about. I'm sorry. She definitely, she sounds American,

but if she's Canadian, then she's not saying it how Canadian say it. - That's not an answer. Judges? - Okay, sorry.

- I'm fine. - I'm fine with you. - She's American. - American is correct. - Yay, yay.

- Okay. - Andrea, three for three. - You know, it's funny Josh, is that I was, when I was in Taiwan recently, on my other story, I was at the National Park

and this man came up to me and started talking me and I said, "You're Canadian," and he said, "Yes, I am, how did you know that?" And I said, "Because I'm Canadian, "and I can pick a Canadian,

"even out of a Taiwanese National Park." - So, you are three for three. Now, in baseball, three for three gets you in the Hall of Fame, if you can do that, you know, your entire career. - All right.

- Here's clips number four. - For the record, I have no idea what you're talking about. Sorry, she's definitely Canadian. - That person is American. - What?

That, how is that possible? She said, she didn't, is she like from Minnesota? - Oh, yeah. - I see Josh, that was a red herrings ringer because she's too close to Canada

and they talk so much like Canadians. That's the one flying in the ointment. - Judges? (buzzer) They don't care.

Also, there's no one over here whether I'm looking at it. - See, I can't, I don't know enough people

the Canadian Minnesota accent. - I'll give you a little grace. Here's clip number five. - For the record, I have no idea what you're talking about. Sorry.

- Definitely sounds Canadian, unless they're from a Northern State, but I'm gonna go with Canadian. - Canadian is correct. - Okay, okay.

All right, at least I got four out of five, so.

- Right, and now finally, for all the money in the world,

plus an RV, and a shaperone trip to Port of Viarda. - How about to Minnesota? - Okay, sure. And a gifts certificate from the Spiegel catalog. Spiegel, featuring value selection

in the economy. Spiegel, Chicago, Illinois, 60609.

“Can you tell that I watched a lot of game shows growing up?”

- You probably can. - Yes, yes, roll it. - Number six. - For the record, I have no idea what you're talking about.

- Sorry, that one's kind of in between.

I'm gonna go with American, but it could go either way. - I hate to see you go out on a losing note, Andrea. - Oh no. - That person was gonna be in butt.

- Where's she from? - I wish I knew where these people were from. - But I have to say, you backed up your claim, I think. - For the most part, I think you're able to say that you've got a fail save or pretty close to it,

sense of who's from Canada and who isn't. So. - Yeah, I got to study the dialogue to a little more, you know, the northern states. - We want to thank you for playing. We have a home version of our game.

- Could you imagine, Josh, well thank you so much for this.

It was very fun, as always fun and also interesting

and fascinating because we are dealing, of course, with very heavy subject matter.

“So it's nice to have a little moment where we can smile, right?”

- Yes, it is also, like Keith, what you would have crushed Keith in that competition by the way. - That would have been interesting to have Keith and I go ahead to head. I wonder what he would have, how he would have done.

Actually, this is not airing while we're taping this right now, but it is Keith's birthday. - It is Keith's birthday. - Everybody wish Keith a happy birthday. We'll be a little belated when this comes out,

but happy birthday to Keith. - Happy birthday. - Well, that is it, Josh, we're talking to you, Dane, thank you. - Thank you. - And thank you all for listening.

And thank you to the date line ambassadors who shared their voices for this challenge. Thanks Jessica McCourt Hughes, the slickest Rick Jojo Montana, Caitlin Clark, Anna Falcowski, and Erica Grimmaldi.

“And remember, if you have any questions about our stories,”

you can DM us your audio or video on our socials at date line NBC, or leave us a voicemail at 212-413-5252 for a chance to be featured right here. And you can watch the video version of Talking Date Line on Peacock or YouTube,

or subscribe to the NBC News app. We will see you Friday's on date line on NBC. - Friday night on an old new date line. She had a secret recorder app on her phone. - You're a monster, I'm done with you.

- When a loving mom and wife disappears, investigators questioned the three men closest to her. Everybody was on it right there. - An old new date line Friday night at 10/9 central, only on NBC.