Talking Dateline: The Professor & The Poet

I've always been a glass half-full kind of guy, and now I'm talking to some people who look at the world that we too.

Some really fascinating folks who share their defining moments, their triumphs, their challenges, their stories, their funny, and my candy. So I hope you'll join me each week and who knows. You might just come away with your own glass half-full. Search Glass Half-full with Craig Melvin from today on YouTube, and wherever you get your podcasts. Hey, it's Kate Snow, NBC News Anchor, host of the podcast The Drink With Kate Snow. I sit down with all kinds of celebrity's musicians, athletes over a drink of their choice, for candid conversations about how they made it there.

With actor comedian, host, Joel McHale, I could barely stop laughing. You know Joel from community or the soup, his new show Animal Control, he asked for four bottles of Washington State wine for our interview. He has news about whether there's a community movie coming. He tells the story of how he got one of his first big acting gigs by lying about his height.

“And you have to stay through the credits. He's so funny.”

We have behind-the-scenes bloopers and outtakes from our conversation. Hope you'll listen and follow the drink wherever you get your podcasts. Hi everybody, I'm Keith Morris, and then we are talking data line. Today I'm here with a reprobate, named Josh McHale, to discuss his latest episode, The Professor and the poet. Interesting title. Josh, did you pick that one out? Uh, we put it this way. No.

Yeah, no. If you have not seen it, you can watch the episode on Peacock or listen to it in the day-to-line podcast feed and then come right back here for our talk. Later we'll have an extra clip from Josh's interview with the killer's ex-girlfriend. Then I'll be joined by day-to-line producer Rachel White to answer social media questions about the episode. Are you ready, Josh?

Let's do this.

I have never been more ready.

All right, there's literally nothing you can do right now that will upset me. Okay fine.

“So this was an interesting story. Josh, what particular part of it drew you to doing this?”

Well, you know, this is a story that has one thing in common with a lot of stories we do, which is that it involves a person who was the victim in this case, Sue Markham. She was smart. She was accomplished. She was together. She was no pushover. But she had a blind spot. She had blind spot for this guy, Jorge Landaro. So she originally met as a Spanish teacher. She wanted to learn Spanish.

Then he got her in a yoga. And then she just saw him as like the guy that she wanted, the idea of the guy that she wanted. Certainly, at some point they were involved, although that appears to be brief.

She told other people, family members later, that she recognized that the relationship was all one way, that he was never going to return her affection.

But many people would stop at that point realizing that the interest that they have in someone else is not going to be returned. She could not stop. And the result was that she put herself in this terrible position with this guy. We run into those characters a lot in this line of work. And they are on the surface charming. They're able to somehow attract women. Maybe as you say, bright, smart women who are nevertheless, they know how to fill a gap in a person's life.

Well, she, someone who had not had a long-term boyfriend or husband or had had difficulty finding a romantic relationship. I'm going to say yes. I mean, I think she had, she had never been married. It doesn't seem like there was any great love in her life that had come and gone. I think maybe she thought this guy was that. What she didn't see was that this is not the guy for you.

And many people told her that. And she did also a thing that we're going to recognize, which is she stopped talking to her friends about it because she knew what the reaction was going to be. The result was there was no one around to say, wait, what are you doing? I think all her friends today have regrets that one she and tell them about it. And two, they sort of weren't more forceful. But like, you know, nobody wants to argue with a friend.

I mean, I mean, if you're doing something wrong, I might tell you once. I'm not going to like keep bringing it up. If you've made it clear, you don't want to talk about it. Sure. And she's a university professor for God's sake. So I don't think anybody thought, you know, this guy's violent.

“This guy's physically dangerous. You need to get away from it. Don't ever be alone with it.”

I don't think anybody ever said that to her or thought they needed to.

You know, somebody who is smooth and homogeneous and apparently very charming.

“But has a violent undertone. They're not going to say, hey, by the way, I can be a violent guy watching.”

But you know, the prosecution theory of the case was that he came over. We're not clear why is he trying to get more money out of her, she probably didn't have any money. Is he trying to calm her down? We don't know. We don't know. But they have a drink together and then something happens. And there's a fight.

And then he realizes this is the state's theory that he can't go back. And they start physically battling and he's much bigger and stronger than she is. Did he go over there to kill her? Not clear. Not clear. However, after the fact that the whole business had moving the car and putting into place where some idiot might steal this. Of course, some idiot did.

Yeah, well, I mean, in the case he's trying to cover up the crime at least.

Oh, no, this was a very smart guy. This was a very smart guy.

And I mean, look, you know, in a lot of jurisdictions in the world, a guy with a criminal record who's driving the dead woman's car and runs from police. Like, that's your suspect. And everybody can go over and run the day. Yeah. But to their credit, I think like every county police thought,

this guy is kind of hapless and he's a thief and he's kind of a dope maybe. But this doesn't feel like the killer.

“But it's an avenue in investigative work that you have to go down.”

Because you're going to get asked about. I mean, there were a lot of burglaries in that neighborhood. We should talk about the neighborhood too, because I know that place very intimately. But, well, you know, I did the neighborhood went downhill after you lived there. And why do we think it went downhill? It's the question, right? But, you know, I mean, the cool people stopped coming when I moved out.

Let me just say that. That's not true. So before we pick up the case again, tell me about this neighborhood in where it happened. This is suburban Montgomery County, Maryland outside Washington, D.C. And, you know, until I actually showed up at the crime scene,

which was our first shoot on the first day of shooting for this day-line story.

It was only then because I'm a county's a big place. It was only when I showed up at the actual scene of the crime that I realized that it was the neighborhood that I had grown up in. My parents and I moved there in 1964. And we lived in three different houses, probably within five miles of where this murder happened.

“And I've probably driven by that house or been driven by that house as a kid.”

Like, maybe like a thousand times. I mean, I had friends who lived really within walking distance of there. I, her fire station was our fire station. Her public library was our public library. I mean, I've ridden my bike past there.

All, you know, many, many, many, many, many years ago. But to get back there, to recognize where you are, must have been quite a moment. It was, you know, and also, you know, that part of Montgomery County, you know, I haven't changed that much. It was just, made me and my parents back then. My brother had been born yet.

I mean, or is my dad referred to it the good old days. But it was an interesting place to live. And then later, later, now that we're talking about that, I became a reporter at the local ABC station, the W.J.L.A. channel 7. And so then I also covered Montgomery County, which is where I met with the guy who's now the state's attorney.

But at the time was a line, prosecutor John McCarthy. And it was great to be a reporter in the same area that I'd grown up in because I knew my way around. Sure. You know, this is beginning to resemble an old fashioned British detective story. Because, you know, it's a reporter drawn back to his home community.

And there's a murder he should cover. And how interesting the murder is. And he follows it around from place to place in his old neighborhood. Having feelings of connection, right? And then what happens?

Well, and then, but then he gets together with the girl he left behind. Isn't that happen? Because that didn't happen. That's not a British murder mystery. That's your, you're getting all American on me now.

Yeah, that did not happen. You know, I'm in a Josh. We're going to take this little break. I want to talk about this in a minute. But can we, can we take a break here? And then we'll come right back and discuss the rest. Yeah, okay.

Sure, right back. Hey, guys, Willie guys here reminding you to check out the Sunday Sit Down podcast. On this week's episode, I get together with music superstar Charlie Pooth to talk about his nailing the National Anthem at this year's Super Bowl and the inspiration for his new album, drawn from a line about him in a recent Taylor Swift song.

You can get our conversation now for free wherever you download your podcasts. Well, talk about the, uh, the, the purp here a little bit more.

people have many talents.

Is his poetry any good? Is it have you read it? We did. We read it. Really? Yeah. How is it?

Not world class, huh? Okay. Maybe it's the translation that's the issue. A lot of very, very purple prosie. Let me just say.

Um, but what's incredibly unusual is that he wrote poems or someone with his exact name wrote these poems and published them while he was on the run and the poems are about being pursued by the FBI. Um, I don't think he ever realized that anybody would, who was chasing him would see them.

“I think he was doing this for his own sort of, you know, or was he being,”

or was he being a bit of a daredevil like, you know, well, you know, he was kind of taunting police in the conversations he had with them. Like at one point, they, they posed as a faculty member for American University. He was doing a story about Sue and they said, you know, can we come to Mexico and interview you? And, uh, and he was like, uh, yeah, come on and bring your Kevlar, meaning your, your bullet professed, right?

So, you know, clear that, you know, I don't know if that was a direct threat, but it's certainly an admission that he knew that that person was not a reporter. So, did he know that the FBI was going to see his poetry talking about them? I don't know, but you don't often see fugitives from the FBI right poems about being pursued by the FBI. I don't think, uh, yeah, I don't think Capone penned any verses.

It just makes your bad guy more interesting character. That's for sure. It doesn't, that it does. Wouldn't you love to have been at the place where they find me arrested outside? Oh, yeah.

Yeah, right. It was just on the street outside as he's walking down the street to get a soda. Yeah. And they stop him.

There's always the, the times.

The cop told me once he, the thing that gets to him the most about his job is he knows when he's going to arrest somebody. You know, even if there's a long route to the court system, that when he takes that person out of their home, puts him in the back of a car to take him in for questioning, that person is never going back to that place again. Right. And they'll try to rearrange things so that, you know, the dishes are done or something.

So that it, or the piece of paper that they need to look at when they return will be there. And the guys letting them do these things knowing, never coming back here. You're not going back. We got you. You'll never see this life again.

It's a dramatic moment.

“One interesting thing that I think didn't make the story.”

The TV story is, you've seen this. Cops place a lot of importance on what suspects do when they're in custody and they're alone. Right. Yes. Because innocent people are climbing the walls.

Right. Like I can't believe I'm here in this interrogation room. Get me out of here. I want to lawyer. I didn't know anything about this.

Let me explain everything to you. Right. I'm guilty people. The thinking goes can dose off. They get their feet up.

They're what? Because they know they got a long stretch ahead of them. Well, on the plane back home, this is a guy who's been plucked out of Mexico. I identified by DNA and is now in, you know, leg hires and cuffs.

And knows that he's looking at a considerable amount of time like that. He falls asleep on the plane going on.

“And that, they found that interesting, I think.”

Yeah. What about this? I'm a little confused about Rocio. Is that her name? Rocio, the new girl.

That is her name. Was that in Mexico? Yes. That was the one. Rocio was a woman that he met in Mexico.

I think he met her through yoga. And then they became friends. And then they became more than friends. And then he and his dogs moved in with Rocio and her kids. And you know, Rocio tells a different story than I think Sue Markham would have told in some ways, which is.

She says, you know, he was very sweet to me and he was very interested in me. And then things change. Yeah. You know, we're living together. He cheated on me.

She says during sex, he would choke her. Show them way that she found particularly alarming. Right. He would separate her from her friends. He was sort of more typical controlling violent behavior.

He was verbally abusive. Now, this guy is a guy that that personality is a guy that you and I have covered like dozens of times. That person is like a lot of the guys that get arrested on date. And they're not right in any poetry.

Finally, she sort of summoned up her courage.

And knew that she needed to get away from this guy. She threw him out of her house. And she got an order of protection against him. And they were done. And then later after she heard he'd been arrested.

She did not realize that he was a fugitive.

Only then he was a bad guy.

“Then she called investigators and gave her story.”

We have this extra clip of sound from your interview with Riceo, when she's talking about her struggles with her relationship with Jorge. And how she ended up sharing her story. So shall we have a listen? Yes.

What made you call police in Maryland? Since it was so similar, what happened? I thought that this person was having a serial conduct. And maybe my experience could help to prove that. That took a lot of courage, you know, to call the police in Maryland.

You didn't have to do that. Well, I think I didn't have any other choice.

I feel like that's the only path for me.

I understand when people have told me that I'm brave. But I just think that's... I don't know how to explain it. There's no other way I can go. The interesting thing about her story, I think, is that, you know,

there's the question that, you know, what's she going to be as next victim? Whether anything worse was going to happen, that we're not going to know. There wasn't any insurance policy on it. But it's certainly heading in a bad direction. But yeah, I mean, I don't think there's any question that she took steps to protect herself and her family.

And that was the right thing to do. I think the message here pretty clearly is, when somebody is trying to isolate you and keep you from talking to people who are going to tell you that the guy here was the wrong guy. That is a giant red flag.

“And you should not do that by talking to your friends.”

The advice of your friends is worth something. It's the biggest red flag of all. Oh, yeah, no, that's a very, very bad sign, I agree. It's time to say goodbye now, you know. You think it's time to say goodbye.

But actually, I happen to know that you've been a very active guy recently. You know, you just left. Yes, you just left the confines of your comfortable home here in Southern California. And you did a jailhouse interview, didn't you? For an upcoming story.

Yes, I did. Right? You, I just want to say you are, I love that you are out there. And you are still chasing the bad guys. Stop it, right?

But here, I came away from this and perhaps I'm naive, Josh, I allow that possibility every day that frequently I am. But I went and I conducted a jailhouse interview with somebody who had been convicted of murder, who will spend the rest of his days in prison. And I left there thinking, he might not belong there. Oh, I mean, I've heard lots of people offer their claims and their opinions and their eye medicines and over the years, lots of them. And you kind of know when they're...

Most of them are lying. Most of them are bold. Yes, sure. This one is interesting. I love that you're out there.

There may be snow on the roof, but there's still fire in the furnace. Ha ha. That's this guy right here, baby. Yeah, everyone's in a while. I take a walk outside, doing, you know, take my dog for a walk.

I kind of think. Right. Keith Morrison folks, come and soon to your local airport. Sure. Right.

You know, another little interesting thing happened to me yesterday when I was on that trip. You know, occasionally people will come and say hello. Oh, yeah. And there was a group of people.

“I think there were FBI actually, from who stopped away at a picture taken.”

But a mother-daughter came to speak to me. And they were lovely lovely people. And they were traveling to Sacramento to see state legislators to ask for their support for a campaign to fund a program to help poor children get hearing aids. Poor children who are unable to afford and on their just goes through life without being able to hear it well. Well, that's nice.

It's a nice thing to do. And they said hello on the way up. And then on the way back from Sacramento, well, who should I see on the airplane? But them. I thought, well, it's an interesting little coincidence.

The life we live on the road, as you know, Josh can be very interesting and produce the meetings that you never expect to happen.

I agree. It's where you meet the audience face to face. And I can't think of what the audience almost. I would say 100% positive. It's great.

I feel better.

And what they ask me is, what's Keith really like?

“And you tell him he is a prince of a man who wants in a while goes outside his office.”

And occasionally he gets on an airplane, but not very often. That's pretty much it. Yeah.

And so a delight to speak to you, Mr. Mackowitz, as always.

Thank you. Great to see you. And we'll be back with Rachel White soon. Rachel White, a far more interesting person to talk to after this. She produced this story and she did a great job.

Hey guys. This year we're celebrating 10 years of Sunday today by hosting a very special Sunday sit-down live event. And our guest is one of the biggest stars on the planet, Ryan Reynolds. We're taking our conversation to the stage in front of an audience of you for one night only at city winery in New York on April 7th, an intimate in-person evening.

I promise he won't want to miss tickets or limited. So grab yours now at today.com. Hi everybody. I'm back with a deadline producer Rachel White who worked on this episode. And we're going to answer some of your questions from social media, which came after the program air.

Thank you for having me. Yeah. Josh is in some far off place. I'm assuming pretending to work. Maybe he's on to the next.

That's the most charitable way of looking at it. I'm sure it's true actually. So let's ask the questions, Eric Perser on Twitter asks Eric T. Perser.

“Why didn't her friends tell the police about the poet to begin with?”

Well, Rachel. It's a good question. I think that by the point where Sue was murdered, it's 2010. And her friends believed that Jorge Landeros, the poet, had moved to Mexico back in 2008. So from their perspective, the relationship was long over.

And they learned that they were still in pretty frequent contact after she passed away. Right. I guess Jack Jackie, 16, 1941, 232, all those numbers. Ask or responded actually to the picture of the dayline team in Mexico. Gonna put on the screen for anybody watching the video version of the podcast.

It's a lovely picture, by the way, and Rachel, you were in it from the second from the right in the picture.

So that's me in the blue scarf. There you are. It's great. Must have been a fun trip. And the viewer asks, was this in Warras?

So that was in Mexico City. That's where we were on that day, shooting some B-roll as we call it. You know, Mexico's scenics, and that's in a very famous park in Mexico City. It's beautiful. Yeah, may I just offer a little compliment to Mexico City?

I think it's, I got it, it's a wonderful city. The architecture, the sort of feel of the place, the grandeur. Mexico City is underrated, I think, by a lot of Americans.

Lisa Scott on Facebook says this is the second high profile murder by yoga instructors.

I thought yoga was supposed to relax you and give you inner peace. The other yoga instructor was the woman whose name was Caitlyn, who killed Mo Wilson.

“I remember that one very well, because that was my story.”

The cyclist, of course. It's really just a comment. Lisa says, "I'll stick to aqua aerobics. Thank you." You know, there's no reason why somebody in aqua aerobics couldn't get a little jiggy as well.

You know, maybe you heard this on your story, too, with the yoga instructor. But a few people made comments to us, like, you know, you're in a place that is supposed to be zen. And you're supposed to be mindful and relaxed. And there was something about the yoga instructor that you just kind of inherently trust. They've been very grounded, very centered.

So we did get that comment a few times. So I'm curious about something. I wonder if yoga instructor is sometimes like, you know, other priest-like occupations, which tend to attract people who have ulterior motives. In other words, somebody becomes a zen, loving, special kind of person, yoga instructor.

Precisely because he is kind of on the hunt. Do you think that applies here? It could be. I mean, you know, we were told by people in this story that Jorge Lenderos said that, you know, he studied yoga in India and it made him want to divest himself of his earthly possessions and live in a cave.

And, you know, from Sue's friends perspective, they felt like, sure, he was kind of giving up his earthly possessions as worldly possessions.

“But then she was kind of supplementing his lack of income, right?”

So he removed that burden from himself, but essentially found someone else to put it on. Yeah. What a handy-dandy way to live that sort of lifestyle, right? Millie Yantus on Facebook asks this question, did he receive the life insurance payout? He did not. His attorneys tell us that he didn't even attempt to collect the life insurance payout.

At peace messenger one on Twitter says Sue must have been amazing because there is nothing in this wide world that could make me love accounting.

I think I probably have to agree with you, peace messenger one. I agree. I certainly agree. I mean, we heard time and time again people telling us how she made steady accounting fun. And as you learn watching our story, she took an accounting job for the wrangling brother's circus and her brother told us a story about how she would explain certain things about working at the circus and how she had to figure out the depreciation of elephants, for example. So she definitely tried to make it interesting.

“And I think she took those things that she learned at the wrangling brothers into the classroom, so I could see how that would be a fun way to learn accounting.”

And finally, red raven red, as you say, raven red on Facebook says, I would have enjoyed having Sue as a friend, which is probably inappropriate way to begin this ending. I think that a lot of people that we talked to certainly felt that way, I mean, part of producing a show at date line is gathering photos from family and friends and you know, sometimes you get a lot, sometimes you don't get very many just depending on a million different reasons.

In this case, we got hundreds of photos of Sue and they were colorful outfits and you know exotic trips and huge groups of friends that she was hosting always a huge smile on her face.

She just really seemed like a lovely person, somebody that you would want to hang out with and be around for sure. Rachel, thank you so much for answering these questions for us. Really, we're deeply involved in getting that story on television. Good job. It was good. Thank you very much. Before we go, I have a question for you, Keith. Oh, we're from one of our viewers. Yeah. And this is coming from a date line viewer named Riley in Montana and we're going to play the audio of the question now.

All right. Hi, date line team. My name is Riley and I'm calling in from Montana. I just wanted to say I'm a huge fan of the show and the podcast of course Keith Morrison specifically. I'd probably listen to him reading the phone book. My question is for Keith in his promo for the show something about Carrie. He says the word macabre.

And he says it like macabre. And I was just wondering, have I been pronouncing this word wrong my entire life or is this just a Keith Morrison spin on the word. Either way, I'd love to hear the debate on talking day line and wanted to thank you all for a great show. Well, thank you for that. And yeah, I probably just say all words rather foolishly or differently.

Maybe blame my Canadian heritage, but cobra putting the end is something I grew up with. So my mother was always a stickler about pronouncing all syllables of words that needed to be pronounced.

Only I would frequently get them wrong and still do. Thank you Rachel and we'll see you on the next story, maybe with any luck. Yes, see you later, Keith. Thanks. That's it for talking day line this week. And remember, if you have any questions for us about our stories or about day line, you can reach us 24/7 on social media at day line NBC. DM us your audio or video on our socials at day line NBC or leave us a voicemail at 212-413-5252.

For a chance to be featured. And thank you for listening. Friday night on day line. We don't get too many cases like that. A hit for hire and an undercover sting were just the beginning.

“Some people call this a twisted love story. I think it's true love to see that this case took a turn.”

No one expected is really the understatement of my career. Nobody saw this coming. Day line Friday night at 9/8 central, only on NBC.