Shame, Scams, and The Stories We Tell Ourselves (with Ollie Wards)

Guarantee Human.

“Thanks for listening to Deep Cover The Family Man.”

Listen to and follow Deep Cover on Amazon Music or just ask.

Alexa, play the podcast Deep Cover on Amazon Music. Also with Amazon Music Unlimited, you can now listen to your favorite music, podcasts, and audio books, all in the Amazon Music app. Pushkin. Hey, this is Jake. We're here at the end of our special presentation of Snowball.

A series that was originally produced by Ali Wards and the Australian Broadcasting Corporation. But, there's more.

I recently got a chance to sit down with Ali and ask all the questions I had about how he made the show.

What it was like to report on his own family. How he feels about the series now. And where everything is ended up since he stopped recording. I really think you're going to like it. So sit back and enjoy.

“So where is your home town like where did you grow up again?”

Auckland. So I'm from New Zealand, but I'm speaking to you today from Sydney where I live now.

You know, one of the things to mention here is this is literally the first time that I have been in a studio.

For this whole project. The whole thing was recorded in hotel rooms in my apartment in New York under Australian school. I'm doing this, like Duvey, the bed's bread. Yeah, you know, all the sort of stuff. So this is the first time I've been in a studio for the entire Snowball project.

That's cool. We're honored that that's the case. The whole thing was just it was so great. It was very compelling. It was also very charming because and I'm sure a lot of listeners had this experience that like your family felt like they could have been my family or the family next door and you did. You did such a great job of bringing your family in and making accessible and making us care about them and feel so invested in the story.

It really just got me right away. That's great, man. Yeah, it is a family story. The family is one of the key themes of it and that made it what it was, but it also made it difficult, you know what I mean. So, you know, talking about reporting on your own family and the dynamics with that.

“And I think like the strength is you know, better than anybody of podcasting and recording audio is you can sort of disarm people by you're not rocking up with a camera crew and you know five different TV cameras and people's faces.”

It's just you and a microphone and I think that is very personal and disarming and that helps podcast reporting and that helped me with the family and I think if I had more crew around me or anything like that for another medium it wouldn't have got the result that it did. Yeah, I mean I've got so many questions about how you did it and I mean I have a lot of admiration for you tackling this. I don't know that quite honestly I would have. The guts to go and do this on my own family and right because it's it's really a high wire act. I mean any story report is a high wire act and you you want to do right by your sources, you want them to feel they weren't burned.

You want to balance the truth, but when the sources your own family member is it just seems like the stakes are exceptionally high. They are totally and every family has a story though now I'm interested is to what the help and family story could be and I think this and so many people reaching out to me about similar stories that have happened to them after listening to this tells me that. There's some very interesting stuff going on like every family you know total quirky and has a background story and it just happened that I actually went back to New Zealand.

It was around the time of my oldest by the Simon's birthday and the whole story of how this thing came about is around that and I had a year off from my job here at the ABC. I was working at a music radio station called Triple J and I went back to New Zealand. Because my dad around that time was having a quadruple heart bypass and I kind of thought you know wow this is one of those junctions of life where you want to ask your dad something if it's the last time you speak to him you know and I took a recorder and

set with him and started asking him questions about his philosophies on life and his childhood and stuff like that and then we got into this story and. There was a lot of as you hear in the show a little wait what well hang on and then. Have you got that document can I see that and I knew what happened we lost the home and everything so I couldn't miss that but when I sat down with that and started going through it.

Where in the timeline was that when you go back to New Zealand your dad's having this heart bypass surgery and you're asking these questions when is that in relation to when Leslie blew through your lives. It's not 10 years later so it was all a memory and you know people had moved on and everything was fine and so to dive into the story like we were talking about with the sensitivities and the high wire act with your family to kind of bring up ancient history in a way was another sensitivity of it and a.

Difficulty to sort of say let's go back to that thing that we've all moved on from.

“Did you have to coax it out of your dad or did you get the sense that your dad and some of the was wanting to talk about he loves it.”

No he you know he wanted to write a book about it and I think he never felt like his.

Investigation brought him the closure and the. Information that he wanted and we all wondered what happened with her and what was that about and so dad was very happy to talk about it and he had all that. That the big box of Leslie box ready to go and even to the stay you know when I told him the other day that I was coming to speak to you Jake. He said the American podcast network and I was like yeah and he said maybe.

“Finally Dr. Phil can oh definitely could not believe my goal here. Yeah, Dr. Phil. Dr. Phil is the end name for for every board just so it's amazing. I was like dad come on man like what are you talking about with the Dr. Phil thing at every.”

No it's perfect. Yeah.

I was going to say pass a message on to your dad that I'm working the Dr. Phil angle. I can't believe that guy's still going but.

I want to I want to unpack this bit but I just want to observe that it's weird. I'm talking about your dad is if I know him because I feel like I know him because you just did such a job of bringing him to life in the way he talked to me was just such a. He felt like he could have been an uncle of mine but I wonder if that's a weird thing to you encounter people who talk about your parents is if they know them even though they have no idea. They're just strangely and you know work colleagues to this day I have people sort of referred to my family and I go oh where are you from and they say oh no no I just listen to the show or whatever and they are a bunch of cookie lovable.

You know that I think one of the things I'm most proud of is it was actually quite an accurate capture of them and it would be you know that highwire act we're talking about on reporting on your family there is a temptation to kind of. I think it's a lot of things but I tried to do it what's in all and call them out on the stupidity of ourselves and our own naivety and some of the things where you like come on man how did you fall for that.

“Well that's why I think really elevates your story and what really just impressed me was that that's a really hard thing to do and I thought you did it very well and we'll get into some of those moments in a sec but.”

interested in this this backstory so you go to interview your dad what was the moment that you pivoted or you decided or started to think about.

Let's focus on the Leslie story how did that come about I mean I had so many questions I think that's the first indication of if you.

I have an insatiable desire to ask questions about something you're onto something and I found myself a lot of wait hang on what and what what and then you know by the time you're sort of. All of the questions in and each question opens a door so a cavernous area of the story. You want to walk through those doors and you I was onto something and I had a year off from my regular job and truthfully a little bit bit of it was like what am I going to do and I was my girlfriend at the time is now my wife was.

International war and got into this masters it was half an Amsterdam half a New York at Columbia so I spent the. First semester where she was an Amsterdam and I was there as well researching and looking up looking through all those emails that dad had and looking through all the documents and reaching out to people and kind of scoping. What the story was about and then by the time I moved to New York the following year in the following semester I had contacts in a shell and that's when I really hit the ground.

There's another part of this which is that this is really a story about Greg right and about a relationship that really went spectacularly wrong and I'm wondering. Do then have to have a conversation with him about whether he's comfortable doing this because I'm trying to imagine me being in your shows or me going to my brother and saying hey. Can I do a podcast about your crazy ex and how that like I don't I can imagine my brother saying yes or me even going through it that I'm wondering did you have a conversation with Greg and if so what was that conversation like.

It's a challenge and it was something that I think he is super brave to have done and he as a guy that wears his heart on a sleeve and he is my brother but he I would also as objectively as I can say that he is a very kind. Open man who has been through a lot and I think he like the idea of being able to help other people to sort of pay it for and he really did do that you know I've received probably thousands of messages of people that have experienced something like this and I think he.

“I took one for the team in a way was he onboard immediately or did it take some convincing or some time before he kind of came around to the idea.”

Yeah, I mean I it was definitely times where it was.

It was a bit sticky. I try to think of it like the story starts with Greg and it ends with Greg but it's actually about all of us and it's sort of. More over is about Leslie and Greg was the catalyst for telling the story about he's not the central character actually. You know, we had this person that was in enigma and our lives and and was in so many other people's and that was the North Star if you will that was kind of the the person I was quite literally chasing and you know Greg's.

moved on with his life as well as you hear and he's got a lovely family, you know, so again it was not a picking up the pieces kind of interview it wasn't a.

Hang on. What's 10 more.

“Yeah, it was more of a throwback so I think that help that space helped I think it helped some healing and some reflection to have happened before we talked about it.”

Come up with an idea for a story I often like have this moment of like great enthusiasm or I'm like, oh, this is this is so it's going to be great and I see all the potential in it and I'll pitch it and then there's often a moment often shortly after I'll get the green light on it and I'll think like oh my god. This is not going to work out like this what was I thinking um here like six reasons this was a bad idea this is all going on inside my head right is the storyteller and I'm wondering. If as you were embarking on this process whether you had moments of doubt constantly you know I remember when I was in California and I found Leslie and spoke to her in that car park.

Listened to the conversation I had with her and you hear me in the car park kind of thinking I feel really sorry for her and I don't want to kind of put anything bad out about her and so there was moments like that along the way where you go hang on maybe there's this real and in a world of lies and make believe and fictional characters and worlds within worlds. You do have these moments where you don't know which ones are real and which isn't and you don't want to kind of you know we're trying to be.

Fact-based journalists here and you're dealing with the fake emails between each other and it does get in your head and a lot of times I was like. How do we even report this and how do we not only do our due diligence in fact checking in all that kind of stuff. How do we actually tell somebody this and have it make sense. I have a question a storytelling question for you which is that. That makes sense to me if I'm in your shoes and I'm embarking on this as a storyteller.

I'm thinking in my head the payoff of this is. Do they find this Leslie character in fact when when when this story first came into our attention.

I'm one of the producers describing it is the first question I said to do they find her and this is yes they find her and that's it. All right, I got to listen but I'm wondering when you started this.

“How confident did you feel that you were actually going to find her and have that payoff moment of confrontation that you eventually get?”

Not very confident but I am a pretty stubborn person and I was sort of in my mind was like how hard can it be. You know she's a real person she's out there people leave trails I had leads you know I had people to speak to and the.

I think I'm saying pass a robles so apologies to you if you're from that wonderful town for my for my butchering of the Spanish there so that's our part of the job of the show.

You know what I haven't received any mail on that so maybe I will now that it's an American thing but. I wasn't I was confident something would happen and. I wasn't going to give up.

“Yeah and I want to talk to you more about that moment which I think you handle really well especially it was just a high stakes moment.”

But back to your family one more bit it's sometimes difficult to convince the victims to talk because they feel the sense of shame often which they they really should.

I'm I dealt with this in season six of truth about Sarah where she was an exceptional liar. She lied about things that no one would possibly imagine that someone would lie about but I in the course of convincing or trying to convince people to talk to me. Folks were reluctant because they didn't want they were either ashamed or didn't want to come off as doops or you know and and I don't think they did in the season but I wonder if you could talk about this for a moment because. One reason that I can imagine your family not wanting to participate is this very reason but yet they were able to overcome that and share the story and they don't and to my mind come off that way in the story and all but I'm wondering.

“That's something to overcome with them or how did you handle that's really that's really common and I speak to Maria Conocova the psychologist in the show who I believe does a push can show as well and I listen to a podcast of hers and.”

The literature and the kind of research about con artist says that they get away with it in so many cases because the victims feel ashamed and they just want to move on with their lives and therefore they don't report it to police and law enforcement and the con.

You know, I am surprised with the people in the truth about Sarah particularly those that had their health records and bank account statements and stuff.

And and and reworked to serve her and the shame is real and I mentioned I've had lots and lots of messages from people since snowball came out that have gone through this kind of love fraud let's call it you know whether it's a friendship or a romantic love. There is usually a emotional connection that is then use this access to be able to get what the person wants and that kind of emotional connection and shame stops people from wanting to do anything but everybody's reached out to me saying thank you for telling the story it's made me realize that I'm not alone and there's a bit in snowball where my mum says.

I feel bad for the others but it makes me feel with dumb like I wasn't you know a clown that was taking advantage of and these people are very powerful at what they do and they have practice you know these things don't come around I think the truth about Sarah and.

“snowball are similar in so many ways and that the liars always built on a truth and Sarah worked at the VA so she had access to understand you know veterans stories I think they were drawn in because.”

Sarah told them the same story that happened to them and that's a theme on this shows a dream reflector that's one of the things that we. and snowball and there's even a little sound effect if you listen whenever we talk about reflecting a dream it's got a little wind chime that sort of suggests that this is a moment where the person is sucking. and then by reflecting their ambitions and their skills and strengths and weaknesses but a big a big difference I think with Sarah. Sarah is humble and part of her charm was her humility and people thinking that she was just cracking on with her life despite all those challenges and they were enamored with that.

because Leslie was this look at me charismatic shiny flashy kind of person that would draw people in through that. Most violent crimes that capture the public's imagination seem larger than life but sometimes the most terrifying criminals are right next door. and he's just yelling like that on a me hole which translates to they killed my son. on the fear that neighbor podcast from ID will explore these true stories and hear what happens when neighborly disputes reach the point of no return.

Listen to fear that neighbor wherever you get your podcasts.

it's it's interesting I'm thinking about you know traditionally like in a story like the truth about Sarah we're I'm just the reporter. and I've always had this idea that in those sorts of stories your job is to kind of stay out of the way or to only insert yourself at moments where somehow you know it reveals something about the story but it's really not about me. you're in quite a different situation with this because it's such a personal story. you are a part of the story and I appreciate it at times and you talked about that for example you said there is one part in which your brother was going through a hard time and you know he was kind of breaking down or tearing up a little bit and you said I had this instinct to turn my recorder on because I was a reporter but then I realized that I was a brother first and so I was like of course not.

“I'm wondering was that something that you dealt with that you felt like was present a lot or just occasionally and how did you do with that?”

Yeah, being a family member and trying to walk that line between pressing for information and not letting something that's unclear go past.

This is also knowing I'm sitting down with you for Christmas lunch later this year and I don't want to say anything that might offend you. That was tough and it's the instinct to put the tape on is there all the time and really for that year that I was away. That's another aspect of this is I was not in New Zealand when I was making this story so I was this distant person and having chats like we are now you know from from afar.

“And I did not speak to my family for a year that when it wasn't about this thing.”

Did you feel that in some ways that may have made you closer to them though because on the one hand like you could say oh it's this is a work project but it's really so much more than that I wonder if you felt that.

If you're doing this work project you're I don't know that it changed your personal relationship for or brought you closer.

It definitely did it helped me understand as I say in the show you know something so profound that impacted us all in different ways and it is our family's story. It's not just about Greg it was about my mom and dad it was about my brother Simon it was about my our extended family you know aunties and uncles and and everybody kind of really around and got involved in this. But you know especially Simon when we were driving around in a muscle car with our Hawaiian shirts on and loved that loved it. Imagine doing that like we still talk about it he was saying to me the other day that he just he often thinks of that and when I was preparing to talk to you I jumped in my archive and.

We shot a lot of like mobile phone footage and stuff while we were driving around and I sent him one of the videos of us pulling up to this hotel where she had worked and you know that night we snuck into the swimming pool and drank some beers. And it was just a awesome little road trip with my brother. It comes across it and it feels so real I mean I've heard versions of that that have felt contrived or that feel like a contrivens but that whole trip you did with him it really did feel it felt real.

I wonder your family is very gracious like there's clearly like hurt there and they they went through a really rough time because of what Leslie did.

“I didn't hear anger through this and I would think quite honestly I'm putting myself in your shoes and your family shoes I think it would be quite understandable for there to be anger and I'm wondering.”

about that was it just as it just that. The time had passed and they were able to see it or was had where they just not the angry tape or just what explains that. I don't think they are the angry type to be honest you know I think there is so many moments in the show where you hear them talk about the feeling that they had when the walls fell down and the feeling of devastation and. In a way that being focused on the reality rather than. Some type of revenge or something because being angry is only going to make you feel.

Whereas when there was so many practical things to deal with like where we're going to live and again I want to paint a real picture here I think that there were probably really pissed off when it happens and.

That's the question were you angry. Well I you know I left New Zealand to go on my early the overseas experience thing and I walked out of my family home that day and I never went back and.

I was very upset. But I was learning about this from where I was living in London at the time and I was kind of like. I wanted something to happen I was like this surely isn't fair you know the idea of justice is part of the story and part of these kind of comms and you come away wanting justice and I don't know if that's the same as being angry or wanting revenge you know that the world that we live and we have expectations of. And that's something bad something will catch up with you and that's one of the frustrations people have with snowball and with cons and these stories are people reach out to me and say it's so annoying she got away that's my you know one star because she didn't get caught at the end.

“And that is understandable and I think we we probably have the feeling of that like where is the justice but there is this person that's out there just you know running a self into a brick wall all the time and.”

We have empathy for that and go actually maybe can you help yourself because you're going around affecting all these other people but they eventually move on the people and the truth about Sarah that we're in the courtroom. We're all very hurt and you know many of them referred to never.

Probably never getting over it but they've ultimately moved on with their lives and it's Sarah that sorts in that prison cell.

Yeah I'd I'd I'd was not left with the feeling of. Oh my god she got away with it and kind of unsatisfied with that I felt. Weirdly I felt pity for her which is not what I was expecting.

“Why why did you you feel pity because her life is.”

It broke him right yeah I mean you you you part of it as I know how it ends right like we know that we know that your brother.

We don't all the details but we know enough to know that your brother moved on that he has a family that he's doing okay that we meet your parents and we understand that even though they lost their home that they're like they're loving parents we see the camaraderie between you and your brother like. The joy of listening to this show is that there's love and there's laughter and and you guys make it through this thing right and then you just see this character that is Leslie and the person that emerges.

Really kind of like and I don't mean this judge mentally I just mean this this was my honest take was a kind of lonely more pathetic person exactly yeah and and I don't you at that moment I'm not hungering for vengeance for her to be brought away and cuffs it's almost this feeling of like.

“Look how it's played out like look where this is laughter all this hustling all this deceit all this fraud look what she has and then weirdly with your family even though they were the quote unquote victim here.”

Like you wouldn't switch spots for a second and so I didn't I'd laughed kind of weirdly satisfied in the sense that like it's not that she got what she deserved but like whatever feelings I might have had for wanting. Vengeance or her getting her come up and we're not there because I kind of felt like look where she is. Yeah you know family triumphs and family always well if if there's a strong family is there anything more powerful in the world you know and I'm lucky you know I love my family we love each other we emerged stronger from this I think that's in the show and it was a.

Finding experience for us and it's totally true that the person I found was a wrecking ball going from one spot in her life that would have some cataclysmic end and then moving on to the next and starting again and how awful is that and. That's like you know hey can this be a wake-up call for you to stop doing this stuff as well I don't think I would trade spots you're totally right I am. Very happy to have been able to show people I guess what my family response was like and I hope that might help other people.

She's a very broken person that can't help but doing this stuff and that is the words of the 18 year old girl that you hear in the story who was was the daughter of Cameron in episode five.

And he's just yelling like that on a me hole which translates to they killed my son on the fear that neighbor podcast from ID will explore these true stories and hear what happens when neighborly disputes reach the point of no return.

“What do you want just this listen to fear that neighbor wherever you get your podcasts.”

Let's talk about the confrontation you have with Leslie which is kind of remarkable that that ended up happening.

There's a lot of things that come out there but one is that I was listening to it I was funny I was actually out my driveway and I was doing like the middle aged dad thing which was I was cleaning my Toyota Highlander. The competition to come on and of course I just like put the sponge down and I'm like oh man it's on and she does the thing like pretty early on if I recall where she suggests that you come by tomorrow. And the journalists me was like no no no no don't do that but you you capture talking and I I wonder if in that moment did you think like this moment that I have in the cars probably all I'm going to get like what was going through your head.

When I got up there and the car is running and the door is a driver I was thinking okay she's going to drive away but I need to give me 30 seconds and that might be enough to get something here and.

“Maria Connecover says that they just love to talk about themselves and what they're doing they're proud of their things and I think she.”

More than 10 years later all of that was on the top of her brain that I was asking her about and even all the way back to Hawaii which was you know even longer ago she could still instantly recall these things and be able to. And she's very good like when you think about that if somebody rocked up to me and asked me about something I was involved in 10 years ago my first questions would be like hang on what do you remind me.

And you tell me about that but she was ready to go and we did plan to meet up the next day because I kicked myself listening back to it on all the things I didn't ask in that moment like.

I actually wish that I went more and on erected wise and actually just came out and said look are you have no you continue to be him and and questions along those lines I didn't you know ask about the snowball line itself there was so many things that I was juggling and I missed and I did think that I might actually have a second shot at speaking to her. So I didn't want to lay all my cards on the table in that moment you know what I mean but you were you were patient with her like granted I get it I hear what you're saying that like on artists like to talk about themselves that being said.

It's kind of amazing that she didn't just drive away and I think that part of it is the fact that you didn't start off by just like confronting her with her lies you actually started off and I didn't feel I felt it was genuine you say to write off the bat I'm recording this conversation. I've been doing a podcast so there's there's not the seat there you're letting you know it's checking all the boxes but then you're like you know there's there's two sides of the story I'd love to understand your perspective and then she starts talking and then it's a few minutes in before you slowly start to call her on some of.

And by that point she's kind of bought into the conversation and so so she actually starts to engage you at least on some of those those issues. Yeah and by the end of it really not her criminal record you know to me like there's a bit where I'm like you were charged with chick fraud and pleaded guilty to burglary to and all this kind of thing and so.

“Yes, I did go in and we worked on it at the beginning about being palms open and I think this isn't really about.”

Proving things and you know I spoke about justice before and we'll justice be done and what does that mean but. In a way it's about understanding the mind mechanics more than the logistical fraud mechanics and so who really cares about the. Forge signature that I can show and say was this you the curve goes off on the end when he does it but on this one it's got a little like what you know getting into the detail of that isn't really what's interesting what's interesting to me is.

I mean part of me also wondered okay so she's working at a grocery store at this point.

What happened to all the money because for example what happened to the money that your parents lost was that was that money that all ended up with her.

“And so we're to them yeah and I think you know just in general with con artists and and the psych speaks to this in snowball and I think it's probably true of the truth about Sarah as well.”

Is they're not in it for the money they they they very rarely get away with lots of cash and and as Maria says they could probably make a lot more money in more legitimate.

Ways because they are often quite smart and you know if Leslie had continued the businesses that she had should probably be sitting on a mess of next day right now but she certainly didn't get away with the total of the money that was lost. And you know in our case there was you know bank foreclosures and you know that kind of thing but and and some of the other victims similar similar sort of stuff but there is definitely vast lump sums that go missing to the tunes of hundreds of thousands of dollars and total.

“I think that that fuels a lifestyle that is very flash in the pan and there's gift giving there's probably.”

Living the highlight you hear about going to nail cell arms and you know spending lots of money getting champagne and many pennies and in that kind of things so I think it's a flash in the pan lifestyle and there is definitely a debt going on where she has to kind of pay. The previous person a little bit to keep them off her back while she looks for the next stash to then pay off the person and that pyramid gets bigger and bigger and bigger so when you have all of these debts. The other thing those through the money you get from the next victim and they said it's true that she had some debt to her parents from something I don't know what it was but I wish that I had spoken to them.

I tried to you know I very nearly went and knocked on the door at that point where we were at their house and if they'd answered and I spoke to them I would have actually spoken to them before Leslie so we kind of thought we should try and speak to her first and then swing back around to the parents which we did.

“Very much tried to get you know multiple phone calls emails we sent them letters and never heard back. Yeah, I'm wondering do you have any sense for whether you think that Leslie herself listen to your podcast.”

I don't know whether she listened to the podcast but I know the effect that it's had because there was also someone who I ran into in California when I was over there who pulled up in a golf buggy.

When Simon and I were doing some interviewing and was very much on her side and had a massive goal at us and was kind of defending her and saying you know if you want to talk to her I'll be there you know you better back off and all this kind of thing. And I said hey me I'm just here I would love to speak to you and ask some questions and then we went home and the show came out and a bit of time went by and then that person reached out to me and had experience whatever one else does eventually and it all came crashing down and Leslie had screwed him over and he had a conversation with her which I which he sent me.

I didn't kind of ask him to record anything but he recorded a conversation that he sent me and she says I can't get a condo people look me up. This thing is ruining my life or words that affect how did that make you feel. I feel bad like I don't want to this podcast in this story is the only ongoing connection to this and so people reach out to me and they'll say you know I've right had a running I need your help and I'm like hey man I I did I'm done like this is I'm not going to spend the rest of my life chasing this person around and so I don't want I actually feel bad that the story that I've done and even that I'm talking to you today about you know these kind of fresh things.

It will continue to chase her if you like but it's also that very human instinct and desire that we spoke about in a quest for justice where people expect something to happen and when somebody anybody is. Doing the wrong thing and getting away with it. I think anybody who comes across that sort of situation. The human instinct is to.

Kind of crimes or love fraud is very hard to deal with them in the true justice system sense so I'm the best they've got and that's why they're reaching out to me.

“So how does this story end? I mean I. Dr. Phil maybe I eventually think that you know I wonder if we will meet again I.”

Do you think she's a fascinating person like this is a fascinating story and reviewing some of the material before we spoke I would love to still get answers for some of those questions. But in self preservation, I kind of have to say the story has ended. What you heard is it can only be the end right is that my family picked up the pieces and came closer together and moved on and we all look back on it as just this strange funny.

And we all have these we all have summons that in our life that becomes your greatest hit moment that you think about and talk about it late at night or over a couple of years and isn't that the end.

The last question I was going to ask. Was that I mean you had so many questions that you wanted to pose to Leslie, which is understandable right.

“But I'm wondering if you think that she's actually capable of giving you any answers that would truly satisfy you right because the presumption in order for an answer to satisfy you have to believe that it's.”

Incredible. I was surprised that she was as off the cuff in the car park when she you know described the way she got the finances as not totally kosher quote unquote.

Yeah, I was surprised at her willingness to go there and I think her instincts are to the same as mine is to meet in the middle a little bit and to give some information probably holding quite a lot back. I think if the circumstances were right and like Maria Conocova described if it was kind of begging her up and actually there's this case of this a famous con artist a Canadian dude who went on a kind of like a talk show a doctor filled type show if you will and and he very proudly described.

“What he had done and he it was crazy he pretended to be a doctor and went on a Canadian medical ship during the war and was I think even operating on people who's wild.”

Well, that guy from catch me if you can, I saw a video of him the other day proudly describing how he scammed pan and airlines. And I think if it was the right circumstances. If it was Leslie under bright lights and one day if we could kind of reconcile and tell this story together. Maybe she would own up to some of it and maybe some of the stuff is able to be proven or we got it wrong or, you know, she has a defense side of the story and I think we should all be open to that. That's it. Lastly, if you're listening. There's room for one more bonus episode. I that would be fascinating. I wouldn't put it out of the realms of possibility.

Thanks, Holly really appreciate it. Thank you very much for having me. This episode was produced by Isaac Carter. Our executive producer is Jake Smith, mastering by Sarah Bougar. Original scoring and our theme were composed by Louise Guerra, special thanks to Morgan Ratner, Owen Miller and Greta Cone. I'm Jake Halpern. Most violent crimes that capture the public's imagination seem larger than life, but sometimes the most terrifying criminals are right next door.

And he's just yelling, "Muck that on a me, huh, which translates to, they killed my son." On the fear that neighbor podcast from ID will explore these true stories and hear what happens when neighborly disputes reach the point of no return.

Listen to Fear Thy Neighbor wherever you get your podcasts. This isn't I Heart Podcast. Guaranteed Human.