The Defense

Guarantee human. You know Roll Doll.

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or wherever you get your podcast. In 2023, Bachelor Star Clayton Eckard was accused of fathering twins, but the pregnancy appeared to be a hoax. You doctored this particular test twice in silence, correct?

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As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences.

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Ready for a different take on Formula One? Look no further than no grip, a new podcast tackling the culture of motor racing's most coveted series. Join me, Lily Herman, as we dive into the under-explored pockets of F1. Including the story of the woman who last participated in a Formula One race weekend, the recent uptick in F1 romance novels,

and plenty of mishab scandals and sagas that have made Formula One a delightful, decadent dumpster fire for more than 75 years. Listen to no grip on the "I Heart Radio" app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Love listening to "All You're Long" on your favorite "I Heart Radio" station,

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Plus Taylor Swift to make her first award show appearance this year.

(upbeat music) Before we begin, please be aware. This episode contains discussions around infant deaths and other difficult topics. Please take care while listening.

The movement of the court can feel like theater. Everyone a member of a cast who knows their roles. Stand when the judge comes in. Speak from the witness box, swear to tell the truth. The prosecution is bound to share their evidence with the defense.

And the defense team prepares ahead of time how best to defend their clients. "Reporters who cover court for a living know this rhythm in their bones." "I'm them every day, a couple of other people with that every day." Kim Pilling, a reporter with the Press Association in the UK,

has been a news reporter for more than three decades. 20 years as a court reporter and 10 months of those covering the Lucy Lepy case. Every single day. So we knew it was going to be a very lengthy trial full of complexities. A lot of complex medical evidence around in that.

And in fact, was 17 trials in one really each day. We were full on sort of to speak. There was a lot of information being put out each day. It was done at a very crisp pace.

“"I remember sitting through days and days of medical testimony during my own trial.”

It was hard for me to follow and I can't imagine what it was like for the jury. But my life depended upon people understanding this evidence." "The prosecution case closes, defense case starts on she's called to give evidence."

the doors of the court were open for the first time that morning.

“"When we came into court, she was already sat down."”

For months, all anyone saw of Lucy Lepy was from what the Brits call the doc. It's essentially a glassed-in box for prisoners to sit in during their trial. From the public gallery, you see Lucy from the side, facing the judge who sits on his dius at the front of the courtroom. But on this May morning, Lucy was waiting for everyone to arrive

from a different vantage point. At the front of the court, facing out from the witness box. "Before any of the lawyers came into the room, any of the families came into the room." "Since her arrest and through what was to be one of Brits' longest trials in history, Lucy Lepy had lost the power to tell her own story.

Now, sitting there in the witness box, Lucy was about to try to get that power back. Everyone knew it would be a gamble. I'm Amanda Knox, and from Vespucci and I Heart Podcasts, this is doubt, the case of Lucy Lepy.

Episode 5, The Defense. It is not a given that a defendant will testify in their own trial. It's a tricky decision, and in England, unlike in America, a failure to testify can actually be held against a defendant. In my own trial, my lawyers and I both want to meet a testify,

because we understood that the prosecution's case relied so heavily on character assassination, and the best antidote to that was for the jury to see the real me. But there's a huge risk in testifying. It's perfectly normal to get details wrong or confuse the order of events

when recalling something that happened a long time ago. But every factual mistake in your testimony is an opportunity for the prosecution

“to call you a liar. And if you say, I don't remember, as my lawyers recommended”

I do, that can look evasive, because people expect you to remember everything. And when it came to Lucy's cross-examination, she often couldn't remember the details and said so on the record.

Defendants don't always give evidence, you know, they don't

after give evidence. In an English courtroom, it's common for a witness that is also a prisoner to be escorted from the dock to the witness stand. They walk across the courtroom, and front of the public gallery where I'm sat and you go across the witness box, sit down, face the jury, prison guard behind you. But for the two weeks, Lucy testified in her own defense.

Each morning, she would be there ready, sitting in the witness box before anyone else came into the

“courtroom. I think she preferred to be sat in place before the jury came in, so we didn't”

have this performance of her being led across each, each dare from the dock to the witness box. Yes, Lucy let me. And what's your date of birth, Miss Lettbeam? Fourth of January 1990. There are no recordings in a UK court. So we've had actors read from the trial transcripts. When was it that you first knew you wanted to be a nurse?

The first five days, Lucy spent answering questions from her defense lawyer.

I've always wanted to work with children, but it was towards the end of secondary school

that I thought I wanted to do nursing, and then picked a level subjects that would best support that career. After months of evidence being presented against her, it was finally Lucy's turn to answer for herself. Over the period of 2015 to 2016, we know you were looking at a number of babies in this indictment, and you understand that. Don't you? Yes.

There's 17 of them. Yes. But could you put a figure on the number of babies you cared for over that 12-month period? Probably hundreds? Hundreds? Yes. And did you care for them?

to care for them. Did you ever want to hurt any baby you looked after? No, that's completely

against everything that being a nurse is a man to help and to care not to harm. I became a millionaire overnight, but lost everything that actually mattered. Wait a minute, Sophia. Did you just say he lost everything? That's right. It's an eriting too much drama week on the okay story-time podcast, so we'll find out soon. This person writes, "I just inherited a fortune after losing my mom, and now my girlfriend's

entire family is coming out of nowhere with their hands up. One sibling wants me to fund their whole lifestyle. Another vanished for four years, and suddenly reappeared, and my girlfriend is already giving my money away." Hold on, Sophia. So the girl he wants to marry is already sending money out the door. And that's just the beginning. He makes a plan, sets up a trust, and finally thinks he has everything under control. Okay, so things work out then. Let's just say

the people he trusted the most are the ones who ended up shocking him the most to just the money end up being worth going through all that. To find out, listen to the okay story-time podcast on the IR radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You know Rold Dal,

“the writer who found up Willy Wonka, Matilda, and the BFG. But did you know he was also a spy?”

Was this before he wrote his stories? I'd must have been. Our new podcast series, the secret world of Rold Dal is a wild journey through the hidden chapters of his extraordinary controversial

life. His job was literally to seduce the wives of powerful Americans, and he was really good at it.

You probably won't believe it either. Okay, I don't think that's true. I'm telling you. Okay, that was a spy. Did you know Dal got cozy with the Roosevelt's? Play poker with Harry Truman, and had a long affair with a Congresswoman. And then he took his talents to Hollywood, where he worked alongside Walt Disney, an Alfred Hitchcock, before writing a hit James Bond film. How did this secret agent wind up as the most successful children's author ever,

and what darkness from his covert past seeped into the stories we read as kids? The true story is stranger than anything he ever wrote. Listen to the secret world of Rold Dal on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Bailey Taylor, and this is It Girl. You may know me from my It Girl series. I've done

on the streets of New York over the years. Well, I've got good news. I am bringing those interviews and many more to this podcast. Yes, we will talk about the style and the success, but we are also talking about the pressure, the expectations, and the real work with the women shaping culture right now.

“As a woman in the industry, you're always underestimated. So you have to work extra hard,”

and you have to push the narrative in a way that doesn't compromise who you are in your integrity. You know, I like to say I was kind of like the silent ninja. Each week, I have unfiltered conversations with female founders, creatives, and leaders to talk about ambition, visibility, and what it really takes to build something meaningful in the public eye. Because being in It Girl isn't about the spotlight, it's about owning it. I think the negatives

need to be discussed, and they need to be told to people who maybe don't do this every day, just so they know what's really going on. I feel like pulling the curtain back is important. Listen to It Girl with Bailey Taylor on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Why hasn't a woman formally participated in a Formula One race weekend in over a decade? Think about how many skills they have to develop at such a young age.

“What can we learn from all of the new F1 romance novels suddenly popping up every year?”

He's still smelled of podium champagne and expensive friction. And how did a 2023 event called Waga Getting change the paddock forever? That day is just seared into my memory. I'm culture writer and F1 expert Lily Herman, and these are just a few of the questions I'm tackling on No-Grip, a Formula One culture podcast that dives into the Unworks Lord Pockets of the Sport. In each episode, a different guest

and I will go deeper into the wacky mishaps, scandals, and sagas, both on the track and far away from it, that have made F1 a delightful, decadent dumpster fire for more than 75 years. Listen to No-Grip on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Marshmatton is here and if you're trying to keep up with everything happening on and off the court, we've got you covered on the podcast, Blagrant and Funny. You look at the top four number one

seeds. What do you think UCLA is going to do? Break down that for me, my friend. I do think UCLA has a really good chance of getting back to the final four. Obviously, you kind of is the overwhelming favorite in this tournament, but I be honest, I think people are kind of sleeping on Texas. Experts are suggesting that UCLA is the number one challenger to UConn, and that right after that would be Texas. As you see, it's so deep and so thick and just about everything,

UConn. It's like when it's funny, we're giving our unfilled to take some of the biggest moments

the conversations everyone's having, so whether you're bracket is busted or you just want the latest on the tournament, we got you. Listen to Blagrant and Funny with Carrie Champion and Jamale Hill on the iHeart Radio Apple Podcast or wherever you get your podcast, presented by capital one, founding partner of iHeart Women's Sports. Everything about Lucy Letby was scrutinized during her time on the stand from what she wore. She was a dark blue black, you know, she's quite

no bright colors to how she spoke. She was very direct, give clear answers, didn't deviate from the question, but again, not particularly expressive. And of course, how she looked. I mean, if you didn't know she was a nerd, she might think she was a librarian, something like that, you know, quite mousey maybe that's been a kid. This intense gaze on your every move and utterance is exhausting. When it came to the coverage of my trial, I was in an unwinnable situation.

If I smiled at my family in the courtroom, a small gesture to let them know I was surviving, I was a media whore, hungry for the spotlight. If I cried, they were crocodile tears and I was being manipulative. It was sold destroying. In September of 2024, Lucy Letby got a new lawyer. His name is Mark McDonald. So I mean, it all initially started when the family contacted me and asked me to go and see Lucy. It's almost as though Mark McDonald's career was leading him

“to this case. And I think this is a miscarriage of justice before I became a virus to actually”

in the the operating theatre or the operating room as they got in the US for 14 years. I was an assistant to the neethosist and the surgeon. I've worked in the intensive care unit, I've worked in A&E. I've spent many years working and embedded in the hospital in former situations.

As a doctor's assistant, I carried the first bleak when I went to cardiac arrest on the ward. I

could take part an anaesthetic machine and ventilators and put it back together again. I knew all the drugs and the assistant's I inspected. I put IB lines in. I put R2 lines in. I had a well for knowledge and then I came to the bar and I qualified for night school. At the age of 34, Mark became a lawyer. Today, he has taken on Lucy's case and is working pro bono. You know, for the moment she was arrested, he became a story in the mainstream media at the

front page of all the newspapers and you know documentaries and news items. She was described as evil as you described as the worst person in the country. It became about dismantling her as an individual and I don't want to be part of that narrative. I want to focus on what convicted her and out I am do that conviction. Mark says to do that, he has employed a multi-pronged approach.

“The first element is the most important element. You don't undo a conviction unless you have”

the legal arguments and the expertise to be able to do so. Going through Lucy's testimony, it's clear that was something Lucy's trial lawyer Ben Meyers had attempted to do. For example, the jury had heard that Lucy was on duty for every suspicious death in collapse. Meyers tried to show that she was not alone. What was the atmosphere like concerning baby N as that afternoon went on? We see there were these multiple attempts at

incubation. It was becoming increasingly chaotic, more and more stuff were coming to try and assist there was a sense of panic around the unit. I think that we weren't sure how we were going to

“manage maybe N. Do you remember how many people were present as the afternoon went on?”

How many people gather? There were loads of people. I would say 10 to 15. Were you his designated nurse during this? Yes. Were you the only person caring for him at any point? No.

Baby N needed such care that he always had at least two members of staff within.

I remember nurse B helping a lot and the doctors were near enough in the room the whole time.

he says is a lack of evidence against his client. No direct evidence of Lucy's doing anything wrong.

We've got the opposite. So no witnesses, no forensic evidence. Let's see TV. You know, no massive out of drugs that have gone missing. In fact, the opposite. She was highly regarded and seen by many on the unit as an excellent nurse. But what about those damming post-it notes? The self-incriminating notes found under Lucy's bed during the police investigation? I am an awful person. You right down at the top right hand corner. Don't you? Yes.

“And that's true, isn't it? No, that's how I felt at the time. I was not good enough and I must be”

an awful person. The crowd used those notes and her social media posts to try and paint a picture of a woman who would hurt babies. We don't need to go back through the social media stuff to show you out on the rats with your friends, do you? No. You were having a good time when you? Yes, there were times in those years that I did have good times. Yes. Drinking fizz, going to the races? Yes. Yes. You felt like this because you knew that you had killed and grievously injured these

children. No. And that's the truth, isn't it? No, it's not the truth. You are a murderer.

No, I am not. You have murdered many children. I've never murdered a child or harmed any of them.

I have nothing further. Thank you. Lucy's notes made for sensational headlines. But those who have come to Lucy's defense say the police and the media, and ultimately the jury, have read them all wrong. Mark says, Lucy had written these notes before she had been arrested, but had realized

“she was being blamed for the deaths on the unit. Why had you written not good enough and underlined it?”

I think that's the overwhelming thought and feeling that I had about myself at that point that I wasn't good enough. And why did you think you weren't good enough? Because of the way people have made me feel. How do you actually done anything wrong to hurt any babies? No. And it mostly she's writing this stuff down. As I say, we've other stuff saying that she hadn't done anything wrong. But the prosecution presented

this to the jury as a confession. And it was left to the jury as a confession. Lucy wasn't the only nurse who leaned on this practice to help them cope with how hard their job really was. I did that too. This is a nurse named Jenny Harris. She's been a neonatal nurse for 18 years. So like things like saying that she did the confession on the post it note,

I've been to therapy. I've been in CBT. I've had counselors and they've told me to write things down on what I'm thinking and what I'm feeling. It doesn't mean it's right. So like for example, I had a co-belief that I was worthless and I was a bad person. There was no evidence that I was a bad

“person. That's what I flew through my therapy. But um, I was to write that down and I would write”

down. I'm worthless. I'm a bad person. But I'm not a bad person. But just just because I wrote it down, doesn't mean it's true. But as soon as I heard that she'd written these post it notes, I was like, well, I've done that. While the prosecution considered these notes a confession, Mark McDonald says one of UK's leading experts on false confessions does not see it that way. I give him everything. And he writes a very detailed report and says this is not a compression.

It should never have been treated as a confession. In fact, it should never be put before the

joint. I mean, got to remember again, that was the left of the jewelry as a confession. And no expert evidence before the jewelry to counter that and it was part of a strong part of the public narrative. Over the course of those 25 weeks, the crown put on their case. The jury heard from expert after expert. Hundreds of hours of testimony from people who all believed Lucy had killed these babies. But when it came time to refute all that expert testimony,

the jury heard first from Lucy and then from one other person. In the end, she didn't call any experts on the behalf. And we had a plumber. So the optics may look a bit curious that.

behalf of Lucy let be was a plumber. He was just called to make a point, which had come up

during the trial that there had been issues in the past with the sewage system on the unit, which depends sort of portraying the picture of well or was not well at the hospital. In fact, for about a year, the unit was designated a risk. Sometimes a high risk for a bacteria called pseudomonas erudinosa. Absolutely deadly for newborn babies. This decision to only call one person other than Lucy to the stand, it's been widely criticized.

But Lucy's current lawyer, Mark McDonald, says that painting a picture of a sick hospital

“was important. Something he believes is partly key to the question of what happened to those seven”

babies who died. It's no surprising now that we have so many problems in our NHS, not so many

down to call doctorate, but you know how complex issues in our hospital environment that we have a crisis, our health system in this country is broken. And I should say that Lucy is a consequence of them broken system. But Mark's message is more than that. He believes there is another broken system at play here. One of the fadings in our criminal justice system is that our fresh hole or what is an expert is actually quite loud. As almost any medic can picture up and say that

they're an expert or something and I know that it was argued during the trial, the lead expert in this case, that didn't have the expertise to say what he said. The court of appeal disagreed with that

“defense argument and said that the trial judge, but that's one of the arguments that I'm now”

taking forward. Much has been made of Dr. Dally Evans since this trial. The police leaned heavily on his word and the crown put him on the stand as their star witness. Two events were set up as some kind of messiah of the truth. John Ashton, who investigates serious failures of practice in hospitals, found Dr. Evans testimony lacking. When actually, in my view, there is a case for him to answer with the General Medical Council, which has consistently refused to even look at his behavior

and his testimonies. In essence, John is saying that the way Dr. Evans acted and what he said should have been investigated by the regulator for doctors in the UK, the General Medical Council, and John isn't alone in this thinking. A number of the people we interviewed had very specific issues with the way Dr. Evans presented evidence during the trial and his behavior after. I know the experience I've got to see now with experts, you know, they speak a lot of time

over these things. I'm very rarely to think about whether, yes, this is being a deliberate killing. Dr. Steve Watts is a veteran police officer and former assistant chief constable. He authored the National Guidelines for Investigating Potential Crimes in Healthcare Settings, used by police departments across England. He thinks the Cheshire Police made every grave mistake possible during their investigation into Lucy, starting with their involvement with Dr.

Dally Evans. You know, it's much more nuanced than that. I mean, you know, speaking personally, if I had an expert who had responded in that way, it would raise questions in my mind as to whether I needed that evidence looked at a game and that sort of you validated by others. Dr. Phil Hammond, a columnist from Private I magazine and a critic of Lucy's conviction, also weighed in.

“I think the thing that was a big red flag for me as a doctor about Dally Evans, who's the lead”

prosecution expert, is who's certainty. If he had said, I've looked at all of these cases, and in my professional opinion, the most likely cause of these deaths is deliberate harm, then that's absolutely fine to me. But what he said, he's absolutely certain that it's deliberate harm, and has since gone on podcast saying that Lucy let be as evil. He couldn't possibly be wrong. People are only defending her because they're obsessed with a

pretty blonde nurse. He said some quite extraordinary things that have completely gone outside the lane of being an independent expert, and that for me is a big red flag. Michelle Warden, a neonatal practitioner at Countess of Chester, is also wary of

Dr. Evans' motivation. He's also on record of saying, "I've never lost a case."

Now, how come an expert? He's not a baristice, not a lawyer. He shouldn't be about

So he's the hired gun, really, for the prosecution, and to a lot of money,

he's on record of saying, "Well, yes, I learnt a lot of money, but I have to pay for my daughter's

“horse and my son's car." I mean, he said that in a, I think it was BBC radio program, he said that.”

Ben Myers, Lucy's original defense lawyer, did conduct a very aggressive cross-examination of Dr. Evans. No, what you have done in your evidence today is introduce something new with a purpose of supporting the allegation rather than explaining the facts, isn't it? No, no, that is incorrect. I'm here to support the jury and everyone in this court trying to explain what was it that led to a baby who was very small and premature, suddenly collapsing, and where resuscitation was unsuccessful.

In doing that, I am totally affront in seeing that. It was very adversarial between Mr. Myers and Dowie Evans. I mean, they clashed quite readily, and to the point where, in the end, we got very quickly to the point where Mr. Myers just accused Dowie Evans of being biased. I am not relying on my opinion alone. I'm relying on other people's opinion, sorry, other medical people's opinion, as well. That is what Dr. Stu, we do it all the time. That is what we do, okay? So, I'm here to assist

the members of the jury in sorting out what is a pretty complicated case. Now I'm suggesting to you, Dr. Evans, that you are reaching for things that support the allegation rather than reflecting the facts. Well, I disagree with you. I have just explained the facts. Mr. Myers was accused of

“being a non-reliable witness and Dr. Evans. I think he took that personally as well. So, that played”

all out in times he was quite uncomfortable to listen to. I became a millionaire overnight, but lost everything that actually mattered. Wait a minute, Sophia, did you just say, he lost everything? That's right. It's an aridine too much drama week on the okay story time podcast, so we'll find out soon. This person writes, "I just inherited a fortune after losing my mom, and now my girlfriend's entire family is coming out of nowhere with their hands up. One sibling

wants me to fund their whole lifestyle. Another vanished for four years and suddenly reappeared, and my girlfriend is already giving my money away." Hold on, Sophia, so the girl he wants to marry is already sending money out the door. And that's just the beginning. He makes a plan,

sets up a trust, and finally thinks he has everything under control. Okay, so things work out then?

Let's just say the people he trusted the most are the ones who ended up shocking him the most. To just the money end up being worth going through all this. To find out, listen to the okay story-time podcast on the IR radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. I'm Bailey Taylor, and this is Icarol. You may know me from my Icarol series I've done on the streets

of New York over the years, while I've got good news. I am bringing those interviews and many more to this podcast. Yes, we will talk about the style and the success, but we are also talking about the pressure, the expectations, and the real work with the women shaping culture right now.

“As a woman in the industry, you're always underestimated, so you have to work extra hard,”

and you have to push the narrative in a way that doesn't compromise who you are in your integrity. You know, I like to say I was kind of like the silent ninja. Each week, I have unfiltered conversations with female founders, creatives, and leaders to talk about ambition, visibility, and what it really takes to build something meaningful in the public eye. Because being an Icarol isn't about the spotlight, it's about owning it. I think the negatives

need to be discussed, and they need to be told to people who maybe don't do this every day, just so they know what's really going on. I feel like pulling the curtain back is important. Listen to Icarol with Bailey Taylor on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. You know, Roldell, the writer who thought I'd bully Wonka, Matilda, and the BFG. But did you know he was also a spy?

Was this before he wrote his stories? I'd must have been. Our new podcast series, the secret world of Roldell, is a wild journey through the hidden chapters

of his extraordinary controversial life. His job was literally to seduce the wives of powerful

Americans, and he was really good at it. You probably won't believe it either. Okay, I don't think that's true. I'm telling you, because I was a spy. Did you know Dahl got cozy with the Roosevelt's? Play poker with Harry Truman, and had a long affair with a Congresswoman, and then he took his talents to Hollywood,

How did this secret agent wind up as the most successful children's author ever,

“and what darkness from his covert past, seeped into the stories we read as kids?”

The true story is stranger than anything he ever wrote. Listen to the secret world of Roldell on the I-Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Why hasn't a woman formally participated in a Formula One race weekend in over a decade? Think about how many skills they have to develop at such a young age? What can we learn from all of the new F1 romance novels suddenly popping up every year?

He's still smelled of podium champagne and expensive friction.

And how did a 2023 event, called Wag Getting, change the paddock forever?

That day is just seared into my memory. I'm culture writer and F1 expert Lily Hermann, and these are just a few of the questions I'm tackling on NoGrip, a Formula One culture podcast that dives into the under-explored pockets of the sport. When each episode of different guests and I will go deeper into the Waggy Miss Haps scandals and sagas, both on the track and far away from it, that have made F1 a delightful, decadent dumpster fire for more than 75 years.

Listen to NoGrip on the I-Heart Radio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Having people are kind of sleeping on Texas. Experts are suggesting that UCLA is the number one challenger to UConn, and that right after that would be Texas. As you see, it's so deep and so thick and just about everything, I really is annoying. So it's UCLA, Texas, South Carolina, LSU, only once I can possibly upset UConn. On F1, we're giving our unfilled to take some of

the biggest moments the conversations everyone's having, so whether you're bracket is busted, or you just want the latest on the tournament, we got you. Listen to Blakeven and Funny, with Carrie Champion and Jamel Hill on the I-Heart Radio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Presented by Capital One, Founding Partner of I-Heart Women's Sports. It's up to every defense team to decide which witnesses to call and how to present their case.

“But it's important to remember that LSU was considered innocent before the jury found her guilty,”

and it wasn't her lawyer's job to prove her innocent. His job was to poke holes in the evidence presented against her, and at some point LSU's team decided they would not call their own witnesses. I mean, you know, that's the defense method decision. They're not a liberty to disclose why they met the decision, why that. But I'd say that my experience is if you're going to call the witness, are they going to help your case? Are they going to assist

it or could they potentially damage your case? And as a general rule, if the downside is greater than the upside, then it's maybe best not to call this witness. For whatever reason, Mr Mayors is extremely experienced council. If they're decided not to call the medical experts, that it wouldn't have been done on a whim, and it would have been a tactical decision. It's a tactical decision that Dr. Mike Hall did not agree with.

“I was indignant, I think. It's the best word I can find, and extremely concerned that I had heard”

things said, reporting to be medical facts, which in my view were not medical facts. Dr. Mike Hall, an expert in neonatal medicine, was there for the whole trial on behalf of the defense team. The request was that they asked if I would attend court. Now initially,

for the first probably three or four months, that was in person, in Manchester, and subsequently

for the last, I kind of remember two or three months of the trial I did that from home. Dr. Hall was expecting to be called as an expert witness for the defense. That never happened. I'm not a legal legally trained in any way, so as I'm out in the street, as it were, I couldn't understand why an earth you would not call an expert witness is particularly given what

I'd heard by other expert witnesses. A significant proportion of what some of the other expert witnesses said I disagreed with. And while the jury would have had to decide which of us they believe,

opinion. Dr. Hall says that he disagreed with a fundamental aspect of the Crown's case. This concept that really was portrayed at the trial, but babies don't suddenly collapse for no, no good reason. That's not the case in neonatal care, babies do suddenly change. They can change quite quickly when you're just not expecting them to. Dr. Evans argued that Lucy must have caused an air embolism by pumping air into their bodies.

But since the conviction, controversy around that theory has grown. Dr. Hall says that if he had been able to testify, he would have pointed out the flaws. I suppose all of the conclusions relating to air embolism were not based on credible evidence.

Mark McDonald says that the first part of his job is to get the courts to acknowledge

“key issues with the evidence used to convict Lucy. That includes issues with the way police”

framed the timeline of the so-called murders. He says that parents who lost babies after Lucy was off the ward have been ignored by the police. I've discussed it with families who have lost their children as a result of problems medical problems, diagnosis, and and and and failures to treat a child who has died. And so I've got these people. These all come to me since so I get many emails every day. But there is more to Mark's

approach than just dealing with problematic evidence. Remember, his approach has more than one problem. The second is to change the narrative around her. Mark says that this negative narrative

“around Lucy is hurting her chances for an appeal. So it's important to get an alternative”

narrative out and they're not a false alternative. I'm not a pretend narrative, but simply tell of the truth as to what's going on in exposing the issues. She was one of the most qualified nurses on the unit with his why. She got all the seriously ill patients and she was someone also that worked at a passion for a job. So did a lot of extra shit. He was saving up to buy a flat and so she would do extra hours. So she would get more money so she could get herself a mortgage

for her apartment. And so she was someone who was committed and loved her job and she told me only weeks ago that she would go out in the evening and she'd go out with friends and she'd get a text on the unit because they couldn't set up this particular type of equipment and they didn't

know how to do it. And so she'd come out and she'd go back and show them how to do it. But she was always

sort of almost constantly on court and constantly there. This hits me hard. I know what it feels like when other people take your life story and write their own narrative. I've had my own diaries used against me. I've had my childhood nickname twisted to mean something ugly. I too tried to be the author of my own story. After my trials and once I was back home in the U.S., I wrote my first book hoping that if I told things from my point of view, people would hear it. Some did. Lots did not.

It took me years to find a way through this maze. A big part of this journey is accepting that

I will never be able to correct all the false perceptions about me. I have to find my

sense of freedom outside of the question of whether people believe I'm innocent. I'm not alone. So many women who face the criminal justice system face this. One thing I've noticed is that it's more common for women to face character assassination than men. They have to deal with unequal scrutiny when they are faced with answering for a crime, innocent or not. The justice system is not genderblind. Years after this conviction is overturned, people will be talking about

“issues of misogyny and feminism that I think colluded the whole in this case and the doubt it”

behind it. When I was researching for this podcast, I came across this video online for expeditions, the living library of knowledge. When I talk about the gender nature of law, it's about basing attitudes towards women in the stereotypes and the myths that exist about

Helena Kennedy, a distinguished politician, human rights advocate and lawyer who practiced law for

over 50 years, often focusing on women and the law. The ways in which it has assumed that women will manipulate and lie, the ways in which it's often assumed that women will not be honest about their own sexual longings and behavior. Indeed, the very idea that women have sexual longings has often been denied in law. This question of why women may be treated differently by the judicial system is one I've spent a lot of time thinking about. Here's me speaking to my producer about this.

You know, there are ways that men are stereotyped, like things that people tend to project onto men are things like anger and violence. And so if someone is able to present themselves

“calmly and with confidence in a courtroom, people are when they're a man that plays well for them, right?”

They seem relatable, agreeable, especially if they're put together. Luigi Manjoni is a great example here in the US right now where he is this charismatic, very seemingly like optimistic figure, despite the fact that there's copious evidence that shows that he just murdered this CEO of a

healthcare company in cold blood. It's amazing to me that like men who are accused of murder can

still imbue this sense of charm, this sense of this calm, confident, amicable nature, whereas when it comes to women, if you smile and have this sense of calm or warmth to you, well, you're clearly a psychopath. If you are cold and withdrawn, well, you're clearly a psychopath,

“like it just seems that when it comes to women, if you're drab and ugly, well, that's more”

motive for you to have committed some crime. If you're beautiful and charismatic, ah, well, that's more ability for you to have used your feminine wiles in order to commit this crime. There's just no winning when you're a woman. Everything about you, anything that you do or say or appear to be, can be used to find fault in you. And when it comes to Lucy Letby, I mean, this is this is true of all women who are accused of violent crimes, violent crimes that statistically are committed by men,

and so we do not expect them to be committed by women. And so we think that a woman has to be a truly egregious example of a monster in order to rise to the level of violence that men are capable of.

“And then above all, for that to be someone who is in the position of being a caretaker for a vulnerable”

population, like that is the greatest betrayal of our sex that you could possibly be. And so it doesn't come to a surprise to me that Lucy, having been found guilty of these crimes, having been found guilty of this betrayal of our gender, was handed such a harsh sentence to be made an example of. And in the one hand, I sort of understand it because society does rely upon women being safe and stable. And so we are especially driven to punish and condemn examples of

when that doesn't pan out. That's exactly what Lucy Letby was about to face. She's now sitting in prison about to be sentenced to one of the harshest sentences in British history. Coming up on doubt, the case of Lucy Letby. As soon as she was found guilty, it was, I mean, there was just

no voicing of any skepticism or doubt about the verdict. It was just the first time that things

were questioned really openly. It just didn't sit right. To me, it wasn't believable. There's huge holes in the story that they were telling and what they had to back it up with. Doubt, the case of Lucy Letby, is brought to you by Vespucci, I Heart Podcasts and Knox Robinson Productions. I've been your host, Amanda Knox. This episode was written by Kathleen Goldhardt. Senior producer is Natalia Rodriguez.

The co-producer was Lucy Ditchment. The assistant producer was Ami Gil. The sound designer is Tom Bittle. The theme music was written by Tom Bittle. Story editing by Kathleen Goldhardt.

and Paul Leaming. The producers at I Heart Podcasts are Chandler May's and Katrina Norvel.

The executive producers were Joe Meek, Amanda Knox, Christopher Robinson, Daniel Torkin, and Johnny Galvin. Thank you for listening.

“You know Rolldahl. He thought it really wonka in the BFG. But does you know he was a spy?”

In the new podcast, the secret world of Rolldahl. I'll tell you that story and much much more.

What? You probably won't believe it either.

Was this before he wrote his stories? I'd must have been. Okay, I don't think that's true. I'm telling you. Okay, that was a spy. Listen to the secret world of Rolldahl on the I Heart Radio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. In 2023, Bachelor Star Clayton Eckard was accused of fathering twins. But the pregnancy appeared to be a hoax. You doctor at this particular test twice in silence, correct?

I doctor at the test once. It took an army of internet detectives to uncover a disturbing pattern. Two more men who'd been through the same thing. Greg Olespi and Michael Manchini. My mind was blown. I'm Stephanie Young. This is Love Trap.

Laura Scott's new police. As the season continues, Laura Owens finally faces consequences.

Listen to Love Trap podcast on the I Heart Radio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. The Lady Will said. The Kriss Ray. TLC. Plus Taylor Swift to make her first award show appearance this year. Also Gold Medal Olympian Alyssa Liu, Neo Nicole Shersinger, Nikki Glaser, Sumber, Weezer, and more. What's live on Fox? Thursday, March 26th,

30th, 7th, 7th, and listen that I Heart Radio stations across America and the free I Heart App.

“Hey there. This is Josh from Stuff You Should Know, with a message that could change your life.”

The stuff you should know, Think Spring Podcast Playlist is available now, whether spring is sprung in your neck of the wood yet or not. The stuff you should know, Think Spring Playlist will make you want to get your overalls on, get outside, and get your hands in the dirt. You can get the stuff you should know, Think Spring Playlist, on the I Heart Radio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

I'm Bailey Taylor, and this is It Girl. This podcast is all about going deeper with the women shaping culture right now. Yes, we will talk about the style and the success, but we are also talking about the pressure, the expectations, and the real work behind it all. As a woman in the industry,

“you're always underestimated. So you have to work extra hard in a way that doesn't compromise”

who you are in your integrity. You know, I like to say I was kind of like a silent ninja. Listen to It Girl with Bailey Taylor on the I Heart Radio App, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an I Heart Podcast.