Marcus Mumford on the Making of 'Prizefighter'

So, you have to give it a day to you. Tamara is. This feeling can be done now. Tamara is a man. She is full of happiness for all his life moments.

You find her on tamaris.com and on the auspicious day. With the code Spotify 10, you get 10% of her school on tamaris.com. Perfect for you. And now for me.

Tamara is. But what I want to do is not to get a lot of students. The master of the club is called "Torpuchas Soft" by Andy Internet. It's a master's degree. I'm saying, you can say that you're a hero.

You're a master of the club, right? But you don't understand. Exactly. It's a great job for you. You're a master of the club.

And when you work, you're a student. - That's right. - Safe. - You're a master. - You're a master. Now you're a master of the club. Hello, and welcome to every single album.

I'm Nora Prinziati.

And as always, I'm joined by my friend Nathan Hubbard.

But we are very, very lucky to have Marcus Mumford on the show today. Marcus, thanks for joining us. - You're very welcome, it's very nice to be here. - I'm so glad. - This is fancy.

- It can't be that nice. - It's very nice. - You've done 6,000 of these for the last three weeks. - You're completely blessed. - I'm completely blessed myself.

You got me at my ego death moment here I am. - That's all right. - It was a very nice, pretty room. - It's a beautiful sunset. It's drawn out on a old raspberry.

Just made these for me old fruit juice. - This is small, if I'm money. - That's good.

“- That's how many gave some to you, I guess.”

(laughing) - So I do have to start with a question that has been really on my mind. We're gonna talk about your band's fabulous new album, prizefighter a lot in this conversation.

However, a thing that I don't know the answer to is, I know you guys know each other. I know your buds, but I don't know how. Can you let me into the Marcus Nathan Origin story? - Mm, we met through a mutual friend

and a colleague of yours. Thought I called Natsilka. He's a wonderful man. And we sat down for dinner and Los Angeles. About three years ago.

Was it more? And we had a conversation, a more kind of expansive conversation about music than I'd had in a while, which was fun and I actually enjoyed. I don't really like talking about music

and particularly in music business very much. I don't find it very interesting. But you're gonna love this podcast. - Yeah. (laughs) - But no, it's probably 'cause I don't really understand it all,

but that was a really fun conversation. And since then we're just hung out more. - So we've kind of, we've both known you for kind of the same amount of time. - Yeah, is it?

How did you meet Nathan? - Well, so we met because when I started working at Spotify in the ringer, my boss Bill Simmons was aware that I was a big Taylor Swift fan.

“And he said, "I know someone that you need to get to know,”

you need to be able to have some conversations with." And it was COVID. And so Nathan and I would just like text each other. We were just text each other all about Taylor Swift and like all the thoughts that we had,

like writing dissertations. And then I was going to a wedding in Santa Barbara the summer of 2021. - I guess? - Okay, this is specific.

- Well, you remember this, and we had a movie. - Yes.

- And that was the first time that we met in person.

- Yeah. - Was I was getting off the plane and I stopped on the way to this wedding to meet Nathan. - But Bill basically said, "You need to do this pod." - Yes.

- Which is the first thing we needed to just text each other and did that for a while, and then it became a podcast. - Interestingly, you and I stayed out until about five in the morning in Las Vegas. - Yes, so I didn't, you're going, you know, finish it.

- No, well, I didn't, I lost a lot of money that. I didn't realize how much of a Taylor Swift fan Nathan was, until I took him with me to that Vegas show. - Is it kind of close to that? - On the air as tall.

And he knew every freaking song. And I was like, "Wow, we shouldn't talk to like this in the fall." (both laughing) - I had no idea, I didn't know about the podcast. I didn't realize to all extent you had studied her work.

- Is this scholar? - You're a scholar, and it was kind of funny. (both laughing) - I deserve it, yeah. - Yeah, I deserve it, we had a long night after that show.

- What was fun?

- You were the first guests on the air as tour.

- I was, yeah, I guess so, yeah, yeah. - Did you go under the stage? Did you see that weird slingshot thing? - Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

“- It was cool, I think they let me, did they let me ride on it?”

(gasps) Oh, I like, yeah, I think they let me ride on it. And I think I fell myself doing it, and then put it, I think someone put it on my socials and it was like a reveal.

- Yeah, if it had been a video.

- That would have been ideal. - That would have been ideal. - It breaks down the fourth all the way around. I was like, sorry, I just thought it was quite cool. It felt like the greatest gate, you know?

- Yeah. - Like little tunnel. - Was it like, was it a little scary? Like that, or was it just smooth right? - No, it's very smooth, right?

“- Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know the best thing.”

- Yeah, I know the best thing I have it under control. That's really fun. - Well, I have six more tales with questions, but we'll see you at the last day of the show. - I'm sure we do.

- This is quite a fun video, safe place for me. - Yeah, just like I'll do it with a little bit of time. - We'll see if we can make fun of you. - It was, I can't do it. I had it.

So you've spent a lot of time talking about this record for a month. - Yeah. - But in the aggregate, I think you have said that it is, your favorite thing that you've ever done.

- Yeah. - Can you sort of articulate, I mean, you and I have talked about this record for a very, very, very long time. But can you tell me why it's your favorite?

- I'm sure there's loads that go into it, including where I'm at in my life and how I feel about my work. But I think, you know, it's a combination between enjoying the process,

the most I've ever enjoyed a process and enjoying the output, the most I've ever enjoyed the output. So normally, you make a record and then you listen to it six months or a year later and you pick it apart pretty much straight away.

Even sometimes like a week after mastering a listen to it again and be like, oh, I'll probably would have changed that. But making records is about committing and that's what's great about them. You just got to commit to a time

and a place and a vibe and be like, that's it. So this moment and it might not be perfect and it might not be what I would have done 10 years later or 10 years earlier, but that's the point of making a record of that moment.

With this one, I listened to it again, Lisa had to listen to it again recently, one of these listening things and I just wouldn't change a note. I'm really proud of the decisions we made to get there. But often you'll make something you're happy with

and the process of getting there was really difficult or sort of strewn with either drama or chaos or, and we've had a few pretty chaotic recording experiences and even some records that we made. Like, I will wait, it was a nightmare to make that song

in particular to cages and got to the point of Marcus Stravs I produced. So it's like sat on the, he tried everything else. He tried all the bad cops stuff and he sat on the end of my bed in the recording studio in Paris

and brought me a cup of tea and he's like very Germanic. You know, he's very straight down the line and this was him being so nice that I really had to go and finish it that day and there was another. And so it doesn't really matter how songs come about

but the process can be varied. And sometimes the process isn't very fun by the output, you feel good about. Or sometimes the process is great and it doesn't lead to your favorite.

I wouldn't use comparative language around quality because I'm not the judge for that.

“So I wouldn't say it's the best thing we've done”

'cause I don't know, but it's definitely my favorite thing we've done. And for the process and the outcome to match like that is unusual. Is there an example of something on the record that you had to sort of take one of those leaves of faith

and just commit to it? Yeah, like the lyrics on bad lands. I'll tell you everything. Clover, conversation with songacts and angels.

Most of the lyrics were written as a first pass

and committed to as a concept with any changes within an hour of writing it and then no changes. There were no, let's go back and re-record the vocal. Now we've got a different lyric.

They're all effectively placeholder lyrics 'cause they're instinctive and Aaron was really helpful. And there's multiple reasons for that as well because we'd made Rushmea. I'd made my solar record, we'd Blake Mills.

Then we'd made Rushmea with Dave Cobb. Then we'd spent some time in the studio with Ferrell Williams. And through those three processes, I found my confidence again as a writer, I think,

which I'd had right at the beginning because I was too innocent to know otherwise.

“And then I think I lost some because we were around”

like amazing musicians doing amazing things. And we'd grown pretty quickly. When did you feel that? Really? What?

The loss of confidence. I don't notice. I don't know, I don't think I knew at the time, but I can look back now and feel like it waned the confidence waned a bit during all the month.

Yeah, okay. - That's a thing that my other sort of area focuses is sports and particularly American football. And that's a thing that 'cause I used to cover the New England Patriots.

And Tom Brady would always say that like,

the first couple of Supervoles that they won, he thought were easy 'cause he just didn't know any better and he just thought this is what you do. And then the middle section was like, the real work of sort of having it be a little harder

- And you're so grateful for those grind, more grindy moments, right?

“Because like, I think while the mind was effectively”

our difficult second album,

even though it was our third album. And I'm so glad we did it. When we made it, our agent said to us, now you guys have done that, you can do whatever you want because you're outside of the pigeonhole

that people wanted to keep us in. We put ourselves in it, but people wanted to keep us there and we felt more than that. You know, our tastes were much broader than the sound that you hear on the first two records

which are really like sibling records. So, and then Delta, I don't think we would've made Delta without a while of the mind. And then Rushmeer has helped gas to this place. And now I just feel like, I know what I want to say,

I know how I want it to sound. I know that I want to make it with my mates. And in that sense, it's like going right back to the beginning. Because those are the three things that I knew for certain early on.

And it was the first producer we've worked with

that's known as for a long time. Well, let's pull on that thread in a sec because I want to hear more about the actual process with Aaron, but you were gone for seven years. We weren't, though.

Well, I know, but Mumford was gone as banned out there. We were on the road, mate. You just don't come. Yes, I came. But the music, right? You made a solar record where you process it.

Because we were on the road until 2020. Yeah. And then, yeah. But then COVID.

No, I didn't think anything.

But for you coming out of that break of actually making Mumford and Sun's albums, you had the solar record in between where I think you processed a lot of things. And, but coming out of that, did you feel like, I mean, I have an experience of this one way,

but I want to hear your thoughts, did you feel like you grew as an artist in between those albums? Did you feel like coming out of it, you had to relearn some muscle stuff with the band? What would like, what changed in you between Delta and Rushmere?

Yeah, I'm sure that making the solar record was as a creative experiment was really helpful for me because I think a lot of creativity is just about imagination. And being able to come up with something else and come up with before. And I think, you know, when you're in a kind of system

that works for better or worse, it's not necessarily the place where imagination can, your imagination can run wild.

“You have to create the atmosphere where imagination's encouraged,”

not just accepted. And once you've been in the band, you're making a record every three years, like it's, you're kind of on the tracks. It's quite hard to leap off the tracks in order to access some new imagination. So the solar record was helpful in those.

Like, okay, there's a different way of writing songs. There's different people to do it with. That's all really interesting. What does that make me as in amongst it all? How do I serve as an artist in this different setup?

Okay, now I know how I can work as an artist in that setup when I go back to the original setup. Now I can be more of an artist within it. That's just miles, well, there's not anyone else's responsibility. I just knew who I was a bit better coming back into the band.

And I think I kept learning through the process of making rush mirror as well. And then it's just about knowing what you like. That's really it. And then pursuing a thing you like and not worrying too much about what other people like. And when you're introduced to producers as an artist,

you deliberately give them the responsibility of helping to shape your art. And be kind of taste-makers for it or keep us for it. And if you don't know what you like, then you can be blown in any direction. And doing kind of blind date work with producers is dangerous. The people who can do that consistently are really more than that.

“For me, that's why the moment with Dave, the moment with Freau was awesome and helped serve the moment where we finally arrived out there.”

But you'd work with Aaron, you hadn't worked with him, but you knew him for a long time. And even that we had what with him, we were with him a while the moment. Right, but then on stage at in Vegas that night, Taylor came out and said five or six songs of ever more don't happen without Marcus because Aaron called him. Got a send to the studio. That was sort of the start of, I mean, you had obviously worked in studio with him before, but there's a throughline then to you go in the studio with him on the back of the cob record.

What is his job in the studio? Like, what was unique about Aaron? He's having a moment now. It started really with Taylor in a lot of ways. That's where it sort of exploded. This year, sounds like the no record is him. Sounds like the crazy record is him. Prize fighter is working with you with you as an artist. What is his job in that room?

We discussed every chord change and every lyric and he was just like a band member, which is very comfortable ground for us because we know how to work with band members. And so to start with his job was inspiration and holding a bit of a mirror up to us and saying, look, we played in Russia. We're mixing Russia. Wait, I should go back further. This happened a while in mind because it was like 2014. We'd done Sonno more.

“Babel of one album of the year at the Grammys. And then we were like, okay, what's next?”

And I had been so obsessed with trouble. We'll find me by the national. Yeah. That I sat down with Aaron for a coffee at the Bari Hotel in New York and asked him a bunch of questions about their process and his guitar sounds. I found myself at his favourite guitar shop, Chicago music exchange with a blonde telly that had been customized with a Gibson pick up in the neck. And an amp that I fell in love with and I wrote three songs for a while to mind in the shop. And send them to Aaron and was like, hey, what do you think of this guitar sound? He was like cool. I can help with it.

And so then we took those songs to his studio and his garage in dimmers park in Brooklyn. So I would call one of those dimmers. And we did a couple weeks there sitting on his back porch. While he was really, you know, he was producing co-producing all those national records already and had done dark was the night. And then we did the day of the dead record, which we did with him. So he got to be in the studio with him both on wilder mind demos and then on day of the dead or with the friend of the devil with him and 88 keys, who's an old hip hop producer.

And so I'd seen his process and then cut to, you know, him having loads of success to tell, it was awesome. Then we're in COVID.

“And he called me and was like, do you have a, is this what you want? This is the story you want, right?”

And I was still answering your question, basically. I want that story, but what I really want to know is you talked about with this record.

It being the favorite thing that you've ever done because of output and not challenging it, but also because of process. Yeah. And Erin, at least my observation from afar was that Erin was a big part of that process. Yes, yes, so sorry. So while the mind, he helped us with sounds. And I think he wanted to help more, maybe we didn't let him and maybe we should. But there was unfinished business there. Cut to when we get in the studio, we show him a bit of rush, man. And then he shows us these ideas he had. And it was inspiration because suddenly he played me, the backing track for prize fighter as he had at that time.

Which was like a sketch that he and Justin had done for the final one of the last two weeks. And he played it to us and I got a pen in my hand, the first run through and started writing downwards. Not even knowing he was playing it to us like we could fuck with it. Like just for fun. And it was just imagination and inspiration. And I had this character in my head that was very clear to me what it was about.

And I wrote most of the lyrics for prize fighter on the first listen through to that song in electric lady.

The first day we'd reconnected in person since COVID, we hadn't seen each other for.

“Was that a character that kind of already existed in your brain?”

No, you were playing it just kidding. Yeah, that music just inspired it, which is so magical, right? And then he played us the Banger song that he'd done as a sketch from John Bellian. And Gracie had heard it. And had had text to me and said like you absolutely have to do something about that song. It's going to be dope if you guys do it.

Yeah. So it was inspirations to start with and then it became co-writing and co-producing. And we really like the other lads really accepted it. And we together we just formed this four piece band for the whole record. And so then he was coming up with guitar parts. You know, like Robert Bamman, I'll tell you everything clover. These are all guitar parts.

You come up with, you know, and then I'd show him something and he'd decenify it. Make it sound good. It's super power. His finger picking isn't saying. And he basically, yeah, I remember he sat down after those first two demos he showed us.

He was like, "Alarge, rush me, lads, it's sweet and great."

But here's what I really want to hear from you.

And it was really a moment that I could accept because it lined up exactly with what I wanted to hear from our band. And so it was like instantly we were kind of co-conspirators on the same plot. To make what turned out, and the price of it went beyond, it has gone beyond my wildest dreams of what I wanted it to sound like. And what he was saying, you want to do that was musical elements and textures that you've made. Yeah, it was in style. He was like, "Look, I don't want you to overcomplicate it."

At the end of the day, I want to hear an acoustic guitar and a vocal right in my face with his, you know, chains of compression.

And that comes in styles of compression and tempo and stuff. And sometimes, scanchion of lyrics too. And he's got so good knowing what pops and knowing what.

“And he was just like, "I can hear this in my head already. Here's another idea that I think we could work on."”

And then magically, I go, "Okay, give me the morning, go right to the lyrics, and I go off right to the lyrics." "Come back, Ben and Ted already knew the parts." We'd probably say that in the same day. That's almost the songs one. Have you guys just a band always been able to welcome someone into the fold fluently? No, not on record, never before, actually.

Like, even with collaborator, because you have a number of featured artists on the record and it seems like it's a pretty open door.

Yeah, for the first time, we've always done it live and we've never done it on record, really.

I mean, we've done collaborative things outside of our albums, like the Baba Marley P. and stuff with Laura Marley back in the day and various people. And we've collaborated outside the band a ton, each of us is individuals. But inside, like a band record, like an LP, we'd never done it before. And I think the way Erin operations is a bit like we operated right at the beginning,

because our band was born out of collaboration. We were all session players for other people. Right. And then we got fired. So we set up our band, we had to get a real job.

Yeah. And then, you know, our first shows of 15 of us on stage.

“And every live show, I think we've ever played with someone different, every night to come and play with us.”

You know, we had my glass and we had vampire weekend of first. They get all up there with us, just, you know, and the vaccines. And we just love collaborating live.

For some reason, have always been over protective of the recording process.

When you're a baby band, you want to set out your store and show people who you are and not who other people are. You know, you're like, it's the four of us. There's no one else. And then I think we just got secure enough to open the doors up in the way we do live. But find your record.

Did you take any of that into your work with Macy Peters? Yeah. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. And then, and then that was different, because produced from a producing point of view, not being over protective either, because Erin's brilliant at this. Like, OK, we want to, you know, syncopated synth part, we should call James McAllister,

because he's the best in the world. And he'll send it back to us in six hours. Well, you want to string, you want to string parts of this. Send it to Rob Moose. He'll send it back the next day. And it'll be the sickest thing you've ever heard. Or like, like, on Kabul, I mean, let's get Justin to do the drums or play half of the guitar solo.

And Erin plays the other half. And he's not at all proud about where. And in fact, he's, he's not insecure about where the talent comes from. He's like, there's just go get the best. And there are friends, too, and it's fun.

And so that spirit is something I think our bands always had, but maybe not allowed on record

and tone that. You want to talk about some of the shifty stuff that you were talking about? The changes? Uh-oh. OK, so we're talking about what are we, where do we want to take this conversation?

What do we want to know if it's some of them? And Niven has like nine things about how he says you change a lot of stuff. A lot of the time, like names of songs. Yes. How you name things?

If you raise him, yeah. Yeah, he said Marcus changes these things like socks. Well, names of songs. Yeah. Because normally you're in a studio working quite quickly.

The engineer will name the songs that no one forgets what you're referring to. Sure. So like, one of them was called Greenwood for no reason. And then just a bat, yeah, we take, yes. Because so an engineer will call it something.

And then you'll maybe change the name to something more memorable. That's not like my song, three or whatever. And then you'll put it like the place or the date. And then, yeah, it'll change a bunch of times. And if you're in the privileged position where you hear demos,

you have to be willing to accept that.

“That's what we're going to control freaks like our friend Nathan here.”

It's not cool with that. But most people would never know that's what happens. But that's just what happens. And most, you know, the non Nashville based songwriting process. But it's interesting, because a lot of the lyrics were almost one take things on this record.

But you did sort of mess with two things, one was the naming. But the second was also the sequence. And I actually don't know how you settled on this. For me, I put it on. Yeah, but again, that's because you don't often get the dropboxes.

Exactly. But it's not in the order. It's going to be eventually. But it's just in order that the engineer uploads it into that folder. I know a ton about how we got here.

I actually have no idea how you settled on the sequence. Because I actually listened to it last week or earlier in the week. We surprised. Yeah, I told you. I said, like, it turns out for me on this album in the sequence.

Prize fighter is this line of demarcation. Yeah. And from there, you get into these big, bigger, begin again, stay badlands like these songs that like eight through eleven

You could have started the album. Yeah. Right there. Yeah.

And so I just, I never even thought to ask you how and why you structure it.

I mean, maybe because you were going with, here, going with Banjo Song, going with Robert Banman. Yeah. You put those towards the front of that record.

“But like, how did you ultimately decide to structure these things?”

Yeah. It was really fun. And it was just a bit Aaron likes the most. Like, that's the fun bit when you get to put the puzzle pieces together. For people who still listen to records all the way down from the top,

which turns out a lot of people do. I've had so many messages this last week. Talking about, you know, songs that deep into the record. Eucharist is 10. Yeah.

Yeah. And that's fine. Yeah. The greatest song is eleven. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. And because, because I had a very,

very strong opinion that here should be first.

And that Robert Banman should be early. And that Banjo Song should be early, because I wanted to start the record with energy. And not do a classic month in a sense thing, which is like a slow build song to start a record.

Whether it's Sino Moro, Malibu. Malibu. Yeah. And just hit like, hit hard in the early. But I wanted conversations with the conversation with my son,

Gangsters and Angels to be early. I insist on using the full title all the time. Yeah. I wanted that to be early in the running order. Because it says so much of what I feel like I want to stay.

Lyrically. And it's a sort of statement of intent that song. So I wanted it not to be the kind of like emotional secret track at the end. Right. I wanted it to be.

And also once we had clever we all felt like clever should be the last song.

But so I wanted it early in the tracklist thing, which did shift it. Because. And then there's just a lot of quite big songs on it.

“So yeah, I think it's inevitable that the back half holds a lot of the energy as well.”

Which is cool. So I was going to say this, but I want to ask him because he just talked about both the two songs. Conversation with my friends, Gangsters and Angels and Clover. I think you are like. You can call it conversation.

Yeah. You said conversations with my friend. Conversation with my son. Yeah. I have to be careful because that song.

We had a conversation about what it's about. Actually, it's the only song that I think I could put a finger on the record knowing what it's about. Because we talked about how we both had this conversation with our sons about what happens when you die. Yeah. But I think you are loosely aware of the internet's obsession with your relationship with Carrie. I also think that you have from afar.

You've kept that relationship for a private. And I've been waiting just for this book. You've kept the kids out. You live in the country. But conversation with my son.

Gangsters and Angels is about your son. And why it's not actually excluded by him. It's about all the kids. But yes. But that's cool.

“But I guess my question on that song is.”

And I'm a misogynist. So what? Perfect. Will you tell him about that conversation? Will you give him context?

Will you let him discover that on your own? On his own? No, no. We've had that conversation. Yeah.

I mean, it's an ongoing conversation. Yeah. We've had that conversation. And I've had it with my older daughter as well. Because she heard it.

And it's like, what the fuck? Yeah. But yeah, no. Because it's an amalgamation of a bunch of different conversations. But because I was trying to be specific.

I was trying to be more specific and more honest in the writing of the lyrics of the struggle. Because that story starts with Ted and Ben really sitting me down at the beginning of the Rushment process and being like, "Lord, dude, just be in charge of the lyrics." They're both really liked the solo record.

They were really supportive of it from the beginning. And then they really liked where I got to with the writing. And, literally, they sat me down and were like, "We think you're in a good scene, and we think that should be like undiluted." Yeah.

And which is a really honoring and trusting and a beautiful example of what, like, a healthy band can be, where you like believe in someone's strength and then support it. And it's a really beautiful thing. And I took it really seriously as a responsibility. And I was like, "Right, I'm going to study.

I'm going to be, I'm going to like swim in words as much as I can, because I'm more you read the more you write." And then see, I'm going to try and be as direct and as honest as I can be. And specific. Because a lot of my favorite writers in the moment and Grace is a good example of one

of them, a really specific. And it's in the specificity that you can really actually relate. Because you might not be able to identify exactly with the thing that they're talking about. But the Clover or the Strawberries in May is the song or whatever it is.

And that's where you get universal feeling from.

So actually, I used to think that being too specific puts it too much in a place and time. And then actually in 20 years, time is not going to be as relatable.

“I think the opposite now, I change my mind.”

I like changing my mind. Well, and so then when you write about love, you've been in a relationship for most of your life. When you write about love, are there pieces of her and these songs? Are you doing the artist thing and imagining and fantasizing what love is like and feels like? No, it's not even.

No, when it comes to love on this record, it's very, very literal. It's things that it's things that only she and I would know, which is great. And I like it that way. And then the moments of imagination come more in the character writing on your record, which I really enjoyed doing. And a lot of my favorite writers do.

And your buddy Taylor is a good example of one of the modern ones. It does it so well, like imagining a character and inhabiting that character. Blake Mills does it really well too. And I'd work with him on the solar record. But you know, like, yeah, couple of like me were studying that song from its early stages.

And hearing the process of Taylor at the top of her game of my view and Aaron at the top of his with the support from people like Justin was like, wow, this is, there's an alchemy to this. It's really beautiful. But the imagination of the character on that song was very inspiring to me as well. Because it was like, yeah, you can write.

You can be a kind of anything. You can be. And we, you know, and it leaves lots open for interpretation.

“That's why I love about what Cameron went to doing right now.”

There's so much, you know, I saw he did an interview on Zane. And I think we're just talking about not being too prescriptive with what a song is about and leaving space for imagination on the listening side as well as the right side, which I think is fun. Yeah.

Well, so here's an example of that, maybe, because when I was on my first lesson,

one thing that popped into my head was a lot of these songs are sort of about those male figures, or, you know, to be a man or to be a son or the prize fighter. Yeah, it's the misogyny again. It's not the misogyny. Are you just writing from your own perspective or did you have the sense of, I am writing a little bit about masculinity as a concept.

That's interesting. Yeah. Yeah, I would have instinctively answered your question with the former. That I liked that's why I know. So that's why I can write.

Yeah. But during that process, I did start thinking more about it and certainly shadow of a man as a part of that.

“And the role of masculinity has to play in our culture right now, which I believe is a diminished one and rightly so.”

Because we've been a bit dominant for a while. You know, much as some of our friends on the right, my disagree, like, "Do you've got chill for a bit?" You know. And that's what this album is about. And there's moments that, you know, just studying that or trying to understand that better or trying to understand some of the arguments around the concept of toxic masculinity.

Like, I've been a toxic, can't for, you know, some good moments in my life. And I'm in recovery from that, honestly. And I think a bunch of us are, and we're trying to figure out what health looks like. And, you know, there's not like a ton of great role models for that in leadership right now. So, I don't know, I was studying it.

I don't think I was like trying to figure out what the soap box looked like. Oh, just, yeah, I did, I did think about it a bit. I was certainly on that song. Yeah. And then in other songs, I was like, I got to tell you everything specifically.

I was, I also love being a queen sometimes. Like, for real, you know. And the, the feminine spirit has been like the most motivating spirit in me. I don't understand how it works. For like, since COVID, basically, the women in my life have led me since then and inspired me most since then really.

In multi-generations and multi-disciplines and obviously different kinds of relationship. But yeah, that's why Venus is here.

And I can always see her because, yeah, that's me.

What is it that you were saying about sort of picking up a torch from a lot of women who have come in, who have kind of carried this introspective songwriting? Yeah, it feels to me like a lot of the songwriting we've had over the last five, seven years. Like, you're, you're out of the year. Where do you keep it, by the way? Oh, good question.

I think it's in the dance, there's Bathroom. Well, they were all in the bathroom. I think we love when they're in the bathroom. Yeah, the only, the only statue I have on display in the house is my fourth and 11th player of the year award in 2003. It might even be most improved to play.

Two more layers below that is where the fourth 11 is. Yep.

“And I got most improved, I think, or play or maybe it was play or the year.”

And that's the only statue I was on display in my house. The bathroom and then the door stop are those are the really good ones. Yeah.

Third is it's in the bathroom.

And the year trophy was between Adele and Deathpunk, one on either side of you. But like, one thing about this album for me is it is both a celebration and a tribute of the branches that came out of Mumford and Sons. The artist who sort of were inspired by you.

And it feels to me, like over the last seven, eight years, that a lot of the female singer songwriters have been carrying the torch of that introspective writing. It's expanded, yes, Taylor, but the Charlie record, the Gracie record, the Olivia record, Chapel's record.

Do you, where are you right now? We've talked a little bit about this. I'm going to just hear what your actual answer is here. Are you comfortable with those branches coming out from the band? Like, there is a next generation of artists who have actually been inspired,

deeply by you. A lot of them seem to have been female singer songwriters. Is that, like, can you acknowledge that? Can you rest easy in that? You know, as wild, like, we did a show in Portland, Maine in about 2014.

The both Maggie Rogers and Gracie Abrams were at. Wow. Which blows my mind. I don't think I ever, with any artist would want to, like,

“the danger has been historically, I think people taking ownership of other people's”

stuff or being ambitious on it, and that happened in the 90s all the time, where people started beefs effectively, because they were like, look, you're doing what I'm doing and you're basketball's okay. And now we're direct rivals, and I'm going to beat you up. Those blur in a waste is effectively.

And or a waste is actually an any other band. Which I love about that.

But so I have always been resistant to the idea of being,

of anything I'd say on that being confused with trying to claim ownership will be indirect competition, because I just don't think like that. I think, like, I get stoked when I see other people doing great. Even if someone says to me, like, they sound a bit like your band, or like, they've listened to your band.

And like, cool. Does everyone know that I listened obsessively to old chromosomes show and arcade fire and ready here? Yeah. And you might not be able to hear that all those direct references in every song I write,

but man, they're there. Like, I would study that music. And there's a bunch of artists that I do that for. The idea that we might be a band that other people study, again, inspired by, particularly, is radical to me.

And I love that. And yeah, I'm doing better at accepting it. We went and did no a cast festival down in Mexico and camp were there. And this band I'm obsessed with called RC Drive were there. And no, and GG, Perez.

And all of them said, really lovely things to me, and to us as a band about the importance of our band in their lives. And Gracie said it too. Just recently, she said on the freaking radio. And we were on radio lines.

And you're also, you're also Joni Mitchell's drummer. Like, you have done a lot to bring some of what's even older than what you just described is sort of the trunk of the mumford tree, which is, or the roots of the tree, which is radio head and some of the things that sort of influenced you. You've sort of brought Joni back onto this.

I mean, literally back onto the stage in some ways. I know there's a lot of artists who had something to do with that, but you were her drummer. You sang California with her live. And you're also very comfortable giving birth to a new artist like Macy.

So it feels like it's a sea. I would not, I would not call it giving birth to you. Because helping her elevate her heart.

“Because that, I think, is quite an old school patriarch away of looking at it.”

And that's the danger, I think, right? Like, Macy's giving birth to herself.

Like, if I get to play some small part in her, like, amazing journey as an artist, that's dope.

And she said, I think that's a lot of us who would be threatened by that. And who would be uncomfortable with the notion of, of helping someone else succeed. Right, because of a competitor's correct. Yes, he, I just don't. It doesn't seem like you have that buzz.

There's enough food on the table creatively. First, not to be an MBA subject. Like, when I see someone else, right, a killer song. It might inspire me in a slightly frustrating way. Like, when I'm like, I wish I'd written this song. But it won't make me go like, I'm MBAs.

I, you know, I wish I had that song. I wish I'd written that song. But I, I don't want it to be mine. And you're good enough for Texas. About geese taxes.

I'll break my own heart from now on. Oh, me, I mean, like, I cannot, I mean, it's really boring at this point.

And you've got enough on your arms.

“Like, what is this level making fit it all in the cart?”

I wish I had the imagination to write that at this moment time. But it hasn't been dropped on me. It got dropped on your man. And that's fucking dope. I'm so glad that song exists. And I'm so stoked for him about where I'll take it.

Yeah. So I don't feel like a, yeah, it's a different kind of, do you feel like there are artists who gave birth to you? Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

100%. Not gay birth to you, probably. But definitely, we're, we're really like that. You wrote in on that. I tried.

I tried. Well, you know what, I once, I once tried to make an analogy with my wife where I was like, you know, sometimes songs like giving birth. She was like, no, it's fucking an all right. She's like, well, you start to say that.

Yeah. Yeah, so well. But no, I, I, you know, being in, being in some way involved is, is great.

And I just have always loved the way that artists can rub off on each other.

Since we were a baby band, you know, like we became a band because Laura Marling, that I was playing drums for, offered me an opportunity to play two songs in her encore every night. And that is where I got spotted by her manager who was like, well, we managed you and two weeks later, I brought the other three lights with me and said,

actually, we wanted to be a band. Here's like, all right, cool. Let's go. Then we had a meeting with my lawyer the next day who said, if you do nothing else than next 10 years, you might make it as a band.

If you weren't really hard. And that was it. But it was because of Laura. And then I went and recorded a demo at Charlie Fink's house who was known in the well.

But you two bands that in America, people might not know as much. But without them, our band wouldn't exist for sure. And multiple others as well. Can we talk about Catboy like me a little bit?

“So I'm just desert to what shape was that song and when it came to you?”

It didn't really come to me. They air and called at the end of COVID when it was legal. And said, look, I'm working with an artist who needs a disc. Do you know any discreet studios in London? I thought it was Beyonce.

Right, because right away, there's like four people here. And I was like, no. There are no discreet studios in London. You just can't guarantee that. But whoever it is, if they're a friend of yours and you're working with them, they're very welcome to come to my studio in Devon.

In the southwest of England. And then a couple days later he called me out and was like, yeah, Taylor wants to come down. Do you have an engineer? So I call that Robin Bainton, who'd helped us on what was it?

The first record or the second record, he helped us actually.

He was the assistant to the assistant on law and modeling. Second record, a real world. But he's amazing. And he was around. So he came down.

Aaron sent him the files. Aaron was on zoom for most of it. I mean, we were all living on zoom in that moment. And Taylor came down. And then I left, I was really intentional about living them out.

Because I wanted them to be able to do the work that they came to do. Anyone at any court? No, I didn't. I didn't want to be that. You know, I just didn't want to be weird. And I wanted her to feel welcome.

And so, and they had real work to do. So, and then at dinner, on like the third night, she was like, I've been meaning to ask you, you know, she was feeling all good about it. Because she, I don't think she wanted to be like, Well, you know, we came here anyway.

We came here with an alteration. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

“But she was like, would you listen to a couple songs and sing on something?”

And so she played me a couple and they were pretty done. They're pretty done. Were you aware that she'd covered white plain page at that point? Yeah. So yeah, that she was a fan of the band.

Well, I didn't think that necessarily guaranteed she'd be a fan of the band. But she liked that song enough to cover it. And yeah, you know, that we were made aware that pretty much made it.

She'd always have those playlists in the early days.

So she'd put on, you know, an album music or Spotify. And there were, they're always Mumford songs. I really am. Yeah. But so you heard the song and what was it about that one that resonated?

And you went, that's the one. Well, any song that starts halfway through a story I'm down. And it starts with And the tennis court was covered up with some tent. Like, think from that first line, I was like, oh, shit. She's, she's onto something really cool because it's so imaginative.

I can't you come up with that. It's so dope. It's such a cool, it's such a cool hook to get you into the song. And then the further the story unfolded, the, and I heard a harmony straightaway. I heard a couple straightaway and was like, yeah, I can definitely sing on that.

I'll sing on that as much as you want. You have to edit me down.

So I'm like, I'll sing. I'll stack them. So I stacked them.

I didn't have a long one.

And that was, uh, that was it. And you said she brought a candle. She brought killer candle, yeah. What did it's mine? It came in a crate.

Like a big candle. Just dope. More than one work. Yeah, we're talking multi work. Multi work.

My candle admin quite seriously. I'm a tin foil guy. Okay. Like if, what do you call it, aluminum foil? Yeah.

If you get welling, which is when the wicks kind of tumble down in the individual tummies, you've got to get your aluminum foil. Yeah. You've got your foil like a little tent on the top while it's lit, so that it melts down to the same level.

Because otherwise you're wasting wax all day. But it's in these things a very expensive, you know. And so, um, yeah, I know I take my candle. I trim.

Are you in any of the, the candle warmers?

Yeah, no, I haven't going through that. I like a flag. I like fire. I like fire. What was like fire?

Yeah. So yeah, now I'll take a flame, please. Okay. But so multi work candle. Yeah.

Like a woodsy thing.

“That would be very appropriate, I think.”

Like, it was, it was sun. Floral. No. I don't know. I don't know.

She feels comfortable if I told you that. This is personal. Yeah. I love candle. It was great.

It came in like a, you know, red is the lost dark start. Yeah. You know, that's awesome. That's really great. That's really great.

Yeah. That's awesome. And then she left me a little, she left me. She brought her merch. She can't walk around my house by way of, yeah.

There's just key rings everywhere. I have more key rings everywhere. Vocal or key ring. And then, and then we ate a lot of cauliflower salad. Yeah.

Which sounds really nice. Yeah. Are you satisfied with it? Yeah. I actually fell into detail.

Yeah. Everything squeezed out of the rag on this candle. That's fabulous. That's really fabulous. Take it away.

I mean, I'm. You're done. You're good. Or you're good. It's a wrap.

I have two more questions for you. And, and one is. Again, this is me being annoying because I heard it early. But I want you to talk about it.

“You did, and can we tell, I mean, people, can we tell people?”

Yeah. Yeah. So, Nathan, I mean, outside of the run. It was Nathan and Gracie that I sent demos to. As we were going, that was it.

I waited, I think, to send to anyone else. But whilst they were working progress. Because we just talked a bunch about it. And, and I didn't want lots of opinions while we were making the record. But I felt like Nathan got it.

And it was just a helpful conversational foil. It's talk about things. And I think, I know you were very excited for us to work with Aaron. And you really believed in his creativity and ours. Aligning.

And it was helpful for me during the process. Not to have multiple opinions. Yeah. Spoiling anything. And also, I would wait until I was happy with it for a sense of tea.

But I did. You heard things pretty. You heard things earlier than anyone else. Well, you didn't waste on it. Chris.

You sent it to me the morning. You stayed up all night recording it. I did. Yeah. And you sent it to me.

So let's talk about that because that's a very interesting case study for how.

“Again, I think the words were pretty embedded on this record.”

But the music evolved a little bit. Like we freaked out that morning about the trash can symbols. Yeah. And then just sort of starts on that. Yeah.

But but but by the time it got to record. You'd written a bridge. Yeah.

And in came GG taking over that second verse in an amazing way that had started with.

I think that's where the band came in. Yeah. Your feathers on that like the harmonies that now GG took over. So just talk about the way that you evolved these things. Well, it's like the only out.

You lie are actually on the record in that. I in that I stayed in the studio till like three in the morning. Right. On my own with Brandon Boss because Bella Blasco was on vacation that week. Who is Aaron's engineer and is just like the most incredible engineer.

On the planet alongside Brandon, right? Who we'd work with a bunch because he was with Tom Elmhurst. He was Tom Elmhurst's assistant at electric lady and we worked with him on Delta. And then I'd had helped us around the world on some of the frail sessions. And some of the rush me sessions.

And Brandon came in because Bella was on vacation that week. And because he was there, I couldn't ask Bella to be this because she had now as drive every night to go home. Whereas Brandon was staying there. So I could ask him to stay out with me. And that day I'd got a demo set over by Kevin Garrett.

He's one of my favorite writers in the world. He wrote pretty catch me the first time on lemonade would be on safe. And to talk with us and there's this amazing soulful thing. And he sent me this guitar thing that I was obsessed with.

So from his iPhone demo, that's the acoustic guitar on Icarus.

And I wrote the song around it. And got so obsessed with it that night. Because Aaron was like, we got to finish by 11 every night. Because we want to be able to work the next day. And everyone was ruined.

If you go all the way through the night. And then people start drinking. And then it's a nightmare. The next day in your productivity shrinks. And we did 10 days on the bounce and no days off.

And so I stayed up that one night and stayed up. Because I was so obsessed with the idea of finishing the song. And demoed a lot of the instruments. And then showed it to the last the next day. And it was quite relief when they didn't throw it out.

And then we did feel like it needed a bridge. Then we had the demo and that form that you heard. We know before the bridge, you heard that. Then we took it to, we would start just playing it live. And we took it to Saratoga Springs where G.G.

Presidents doing a one-off show with us. Supporting us at Saratoga Springs in York. And we showed it to the demo before we went on stage. And she sang on stage that night after one rehearsal. And it was so fly that we asked her to sing it on the record.

And she said yes, which I was amazed by.

And so that's how it ended up. Yeah. And then obviously Erin did his thing and turned a banded that thing on it. And it became. It crosses one of my favorite ones.

I love that song. It's 10th on the record. Yeah. Yeah. What would you've done?

I can't say it on that.

“I just, I think, I think that's, do you think the chat list is wrong?”

I don't at all. I wouldn't have done anything different. I just think it's, yes. Like you get through prizefighter and then holy shit. But it feels right.

It's right. It does to me. There's just, there's another elevation that the record takes after that. That I didn't, when I was listening to them sort of in piecemeal in my head. I was like, wow, there's so much stuff here.

How are they actually going to structure it? And the way that it landed. I wouldn't have been to break it out and to records. That would have been the smart thing to do, but I couldn't wait. I couldn't wait.

So I just thought, like, let's bang all out and make it. Make it a rich record. But not like an overwhelmingly long one. Yeah. 14's, the long, you know, does was 14.

But Delta was dense. This one's got lighters. You know, I'll tell you everything is like a nugget. Clover is like a nugget. Yeah.

So it doesn't feel like dodgy to me. No. But again, again, Icarus stay badlands. There's just like four face punches. It feels like a prize fighter in that like six round.

Yeah. Going for knockout. Yeah. To me. Nice.

That's why. That's enough. All right. You plan us an L on Saturday. I went back and watched the performances that you've done before.

I texted you. These were yikes. How was that? We were doing it in here. Did you?

I made them watch.

“Because I think the last time you were on that stage,”

you did Delta. The last time I was on that stage, I played the beginning of a little line man. Oh, acoustically when my wife hosted. For Carries.

Which was fun. But yes. Yes. Was it Delta we did? Huh?

Jason Momoa had his hair and pigtails and introducing you guys. Did he really? Yeah. It was Charlie. What a legend.

Yeah. It was pretty cool. I made him carry me in his arms. That's hard. That's hard.

He told me to hold me in his arms like a fucking baby. And he did it. Just as Santa is awesome. It's not hard thing for him to do. It was not hard for him to do.

At that point, it was harder. Yeah. But yeah, go on. That's enough. You nervous?

Yeah. No, I'm less nervous than I had been before. Yeah. For sure. Like what you don't see on that show

is the levels of anxiety backstage across the board. Everyone is an anxious part from law. It's just a fucking legend. So it doesn't have to be.

But I'm, you know, everyone is scared.

“Because that's what like the stakes are.”

Because no one else goes live to that many people. Yeah. In the world. Yeah. And taking risks with things they haven't really fully finished.

Yeah. Because the, you know, they cut so much between the dress and the real show. That no one knows what the show is. Until it happens.

So there's this level of like heightened. And I think, you know, A, that makes it super stressful work environment. But B, it makes it so special as unique. There's nothing else like it.

And it means that I think everyone's operating at a higher level of adrenaline. Which is high stakes, including the musicians.

Because you don't get a second take.

Right. That's it. So then talk about the band. And it's purpose as a live entity. Right last night, you threw something up on

Reels and said meet me in Brooklyn at eight o'clock. And you played a show. Yeah.

We were doing a pre-tate thing. In Brooklyn, in Williamsburg.

And we had a string section for the first time.

Rob Moose brought some friends and did the arrangements. He's done on the record. And we had James McAllister. We played a bunch on price by to play drums for this last night. Sounded so good in rehearsals there.

Two o'clock in the afternoon. I googled, searched whether there was anything happening at the music hall of Williamsburg tonight. And there wasn't. Because I love that reminisce closing.

Yeah. And it was like our first big headline show in New York. And there was nothing happening. So I texted that on that. It was like, yo.

“Is there anywhere we can go and play musical tonight?”

And do it totally unplugged. Because the string section's sick. It sounds great. And we could just try to pop up. Do you think there's anywhere we can do it?

And they called the Martin. They said yes. And so we announced it at seven. Yeah. And it blows my mind that it was sold out by the time we got there.

And people had come in the snow.

And we played fully, basically.

And it was one of my favorite things we've ever done. I loved it. So fun. So fulfilling. And so you're probably one of the only bands in the world that can do that.

They can play like most of the catalog without electricity. Some wilder mind. Maybe not. But everything else you can do. I love playing the domestic acoustic version.

It's my favorite version. Fair enough. Yeah. But there's also that performance of Delta on SNL,

“which is as hard a rock song as you're going to play live.”

You're going to hear. So there's there's range there. There's also your live show where you are. I think there's the wolf running. It was Delta.

I probably still believe in the wolf. Well, I'll pull it up on YouTube for you when we're done. Yes, Delta. What's that? I don't want him to be right.

But it was.

I don't know what the first one was in fairness.

It was probably the wolf. Yeah. We'll go back and look. Point is. Yeah.

There's danger in the live show when you run your ass around the arena and try not to get tackled in the crowd. Like there is something that's different about mum for that is live. How do you think about the purpose of the band? Is there a difference in the purpose of the band?

In the live part of what you do versus the making records part of what you do? Ted talks by this really well. He says like, when you show up live, especially in a big venue, even in this more one, people have different expectations and needs that night. Some people want to go church and some people want to throw beer in other people's faces.

And wash and you get everything in between. And so like Bono said this sweet thing about our band where he was like, I think I love about your band as you take people to church and you tend to fear. And so I do think about that. I like dynamics, live.

I like being able to go as quiet as we possibly can. And then go to 110 decibels. Which is like what you'd hear at a Kendrick. They'll kind of volume you'd hear at Kendrick. So I like being able to do both.

And then when you're in the bigger rooms,

“I think holding people's attention is a thing you have to pay more attention to yourself.”

So then you have to start thinking about other elements. And this summer we're about to play. I were doing a stadium tour for the first time. We've done some stadiums, but we haven't done a tour of them. And that's going to be dope.

And then, yeah, this is like we just put up. I'll be as tall as we are. It seemed to me like you fell back in love with doing this when you're getting front of people. Yeah. And I think that started when we got back in the room together at the three of us.

And we fell in love with rags songs together. That's where it came from. And then the serving the purpose live is to show people good time to feel something every night that will make us do it again the next night. And I think we now know the kinds of ingredients we need to put into a show to keep our attention. It's like making records like as long as you love it.

So you can be pretty sure that someone else will have a good time. They might not love it as much as you do. But we should probably let them sleep so that he can do good show on Saturday. I've got the most SNL day. I've got the most New York day in the world to my life.

I'm living my real house while I was dreaming and doing my bloody class. And then, and then going to rehearsals. Staying at the rock all day. Going rough trades. Maybe going to hockey.

It's all very New York. It's a big hockey week. It's a big week for hockey. It's a big week for hockey. It's a big week for hockey.

A big week for hockey. For the go to the Rangers game. Conestorian SNL. Yeah. Let's go.

Raging map. Pilates are a former. Reformer and Cadillac. Okay. I went home a couple years ago after a week in New York.

And I went home and I saw my doctor. I saw my shoulders really bad. I just got scanned. It was a labrum death. He was like, how did you do it?

And I was like, well, I was in this plot. Yeah. And then I came out of the press. Yeah. And I tossed my bag over my shoulder like a real bad bitch.

He's right. It's a postplot.

“He said he thought he had to tell about the Pilates to make it sort of respectable.”

Yeah. Oh, it'll be careful. Yes, thank you, Nora. Yeah.

“Be really careful with the bag when you come out of there.”

That sounds like a really nice day.

Good day. It's going to be a good day. Thank you.

“You know, even the conversations, we had this conversation.”

The only like, even the conversations around this album, I'm enjoying more.

And again, that might be for multiple reasons, but yeah, you make this fun. So thank you very much. Well, thank you so much. Thank you for doing this. Thank you, Marcus.

Yes, Nathan. This has been every single album.

As always, I'm Nora Prinziati.

He's Nathan Hubbard. He's Marcus Mumford. Thank you to Bell Roman for production support. and support, thank you to Kai and MacMolan for producing this episode. And we'll talk to you next week.