If you've had the feeling in your 40s and 50s that it's too late for you to s...
too late to prioritize your retirement, this episode is for you.
Because the truth, almost every woman, no matter her age, feels behind. I'm joined by the legendary Jean Chatsky, longtime financial journalist, bestselling author, founder of her money, and a woman whose work has shaped an entire generation of women's financial literacy, including my own. Jeanne has helped millions understand money more clearly, and today's episode she
opens up about her own story, starting over at 40 after a divorce, job loss, and the death of a parent all in the same year. And she talks candidly about what she wishes she'd known earlier, what she's glad she prepared for, and why every woman needs to feel empowered to ask questions
even when the answer is filled over well.
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“So, Jean, you said that to "one your life, you have to own your money."”
So, for women navigating careers, caregiving, identity shifts in their 40s and 50s, what is owning your money really look like, and why is it so important? At a very basic level, it means knowing what is coming in, what is going out, and where it's going. And you know, most people have absolutely no idea, but unless you have a handle on that very, very basic information, it's impossible for you to control using your
money to accomplish the things that you want in life. And whether we choose to acknowledge it or not, money is a limited resource, and we've got to make choices about how we want to allocate those resources in order to get what we want most. And far too many of us just go through life, spending unconsciously, not thinking about it, and then regretting the decisions that we made down the road. Why do women in either their late 30s, but especially their 40s and 50s
need to think about money differently than someone in their 20s or someone like me who's 31, like what is the difference? It's just time. It's the fact that time is your biggest asset when it comes to growing your money. And if you get a late start, and I'm not saying 40 is late,
“because honestly, I started over at 40. I don't know that we've ever had this conversation”
story, but I got divorced at 40. I got fired at 40. My father died at 40. 40 was a shitty year, and I, I mean, it just, it was terrible. But I started over and built savings and built a portfolio and bought a house and paid it off. And was very, very methodical about doing all of those things.
If you are starting at 40, rather than starting at 25 or 31, when it comes to...
got some money for emergencies, stuffing 15% a year or as much as you can in that 401k and grabbing
“some matching dollars, then you have to do more with less time because you've got less of it on the”
other end. So Gene, I actually didn't know that part of your story. Can we stay on that for a bit, because I think it is something that I hear a lot from our community of women in their 40s and 50s who go through divorce, go through starting over, go through like a career identity shift, or, you know, the loss of a parent. What did you learn about money during those times, even as someone who is good with money is a financial expert. Like what were you glad you
prepped and prepared for and what do you wish you had done differently? I was glad that I knew
how to do what I needed to do. I didn't feel as if I was missing any information in terms of
“negotiating for a mortgage, negotiating the price on a house, deciding which assets I was going to”
fight for in the divorce. I knew all of that, but what I wished I had done earlier was really focus on accumulating sort of more wealth that would have been there to split. I was earning a decent amount of money by the time I was 40. I was earning a decent amount of money by the time I was in my mid-30s, but as a journalist, I started out earning $11,000 a year and it is really, really hard to save on that. And so I just didn't. It was really, really hard to
stand a credit card debt. And so I battled back from that. I wish I had embraced the saving gene and investing gene a little bit earlier and gene how Jeannie not jeannie. I learned about myself that I am not as much of a risk taker as I thought I was. When it came to that period in my life, I started saving like a maniac. I mean, I just, I just rained in all the spending and started shaving money into 529s because I was going to be responsible for half of college for my kids.
I didn't want mortgage debt even though having mortgage debt probably was fine. I just, I didn't wanted. I was saving a a fire like portion of my salary when I probably should have been putting it to work. And I was literally saving it. I wanted to see that balance in the bank account adding up because it just made me feel better. It made me feel safer to know that cushion was there that it could not be taken away from me that I was, I was, you know, running on my own steam.
And took me a while to come back from that and to build my asset allocation back up and to
to regain the confidence that the markets would do what they have always done.
I'm thinking as a listener that, okay, she learned a lot. It's really helpful for me to learn. What if I don't know everything that Jean Chaps keynote? Like, what if I don't know how to negotiate that mortgage? What if I don't know what I should be advocating for in the divorce? Like, I don't want to spend too much time on it. But if you can give me, like, is it taking your personal finance education seriously? Like, how do we show up in those moments that feel really
stressful? Knowing, you know what, I do have the necessary information. We show up in a way that allows us to ask all the questions that we need to ask. Even when we don't know the answers, what I've learned about women is that we know the questions. We know what the
“questions are. We don't always have the confidence to ask them. But you need to put yourself into”
situations when the waters are rocky, where you feel comfortable asking your questions. Best advice that I got when I was getting divorced was get a good lawyer, get a good therapist, and get a good account. Right? You need all three of them. And you need them to be a team of people to whom you can ask every question that you want to ask without feeling like they're stupid questions. And that's something that I learned as a reporter. When I was, I was an English major in college. I didn't
Come to personal finance, because I went to Wharton and, you know, decided, o...
Right? Now, I came because a therapist would say, I came because I knew I had some problems
“at my financial life and I want to fix them. And that got me interested in this topic. But I remember”
years sitting in my cubicle at Money Magazine or Smart Money Magazine with a really, really patient and smart series of sources on the phone, because when you're a reporter with a magazine like that, people will answer any question you ask them. And saying to people, look, I'm sorry, don't get it. Can you explain it to me again? Can you try to explain it another way? Can you pick it up here? Because I, that's where you lost me. We, we have to feel okay about doing that because this
stuff is not written in English. It's, it's, it's written to confuse us. It's, it's purposefully written to confuse us because when we're confused and feel unable to ask our questions, we just pay the money and move on. And so, for women in those periods of transition, I want you to
“understand that you have to get the help you need. And if the help that you get is not answering”
your questions in a way that you understand it, the problem is not you, the problem is the help.
And you find different help. Yeah, I think it's also understanding that you might feel a little bit of embarrassment asking those questions, but like this is your life and this is your money. And we have to go through a bit of embarrassment if it means protecting your entire life and the money that you need in order to retire comfortably or send your children to college or have a house. Like the embarrassment is the small price to pay to make sure that you are financially
okay. Yeah, and it's actually not that embarrassing. Like once you do it once or twice
and you realize like nobody melted, it's not, it's not that hard. And you know, it's my life,
for you, you're so right with, you know, they're the jargon, the jargon's there for a reason, everybody. Yeah. Yeah. So, you know, ask your question once, you'll get through it and you'll realize, okay, I'm gonna, I'm gonna ask again, you know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna make sure I have all the information that I need to have because it's, nobody cares about your money as much as you do, right? Even if the natural advisor that you are hiring and paying and who has a fiduciary
responsibility to put your needs before their own, they don't care about your money as much as you do. What is the biggest mistake you're seeing women in their 40s and 50s make? And how can they course correct even if they feel behind? The biggest mistake is too much in cash and not enough invested. Yep. And it, it, it bears out you see in the stats, right? The, the women just have a higher percentage of our money in cash and it's a mistake I made, right? So, I had to course correct,
I had to do it myself. The money in cash even when you're earning high yield savings accounts rates, which today are better than they have been, you know, in a, in a while, they're not market returns. They're, they're not gonna get you past taxes and inflation and to retirement. They're not doing the work that you, you need it to do. And so, if, if you know that you are not investing, the way that you should be, if you know that your money's not working, the way that it
should be, then you gotta find out how to get yourself over that hurdle. Because you've still got a lot of time, right? We forget that retirement is really long time that we're, we're retiring at 60, 65. We have a very good chance of living till 1995. That's a lot of years for your money
“to continue to grow, but you have to put it to work. Well, and I think what you just said is so”
important, because I think everybody believes I need the amount that I'm going to retire on at retirement age. And it's like, you're not pulling all of your money out the moment you quit your job and say, okay, I'm retiring, right? You're pulling out, hopefully a couple of years before a little bit of money to live off of, you're putting it in a, you know, high yield savings account or a certificate at deposit or you're giving yourself some leeway there. This is what my parents are
doing right now, who are, you know, about to be, they're like early 60s. And then you have some money that is continuing to grow, hopefully in the market, through those, you know, couple decades of retirement, you're not pulling out all of your money at 65. It's not over
For you at 65.
what we're seeing, I saw some study last week about the number of people who are
“quote unquote retired. Like, if you ask them, what do you do? They'll say, oh, I'm retired,”
but who are still working for pay? And it's in the 30 to 40 percent range. It's very, very big.
And, and the reasons that they're doing it are not all financial. They're doing it because it keeps them engaged in social and because work can be fun and interesting. And it's, I, I don't like the thought of a retirement where I don't have my day schedule. I, I like, no, and what I'm going to do, that factors in as well. So when we think about Gen X women, they're often high earners, but they still feel like they're treading water. So where should they be focusing their financial
energy? Is it paying off that investing? It sounds like, you know, of investing definitely, retirement generally, is it something else? First, you got to look at your lifestyle. It's very, very easy to go through your 30s and 40s. Look, I'm, I'm 60. And I am the
“last of the boomers and the first of the actors born in 1964, right on that cost. And so I think I”
have a little, I have a little bit of DNA from each generation in me. But as we became more successful
and as we became better earners, we just, many of us piled on additional expenses that we never
went back and took a look at and said, why do I do this every week? Why do I pay for this every month? Do I really need this or is this money better spent elsewhere? So I think an audit of your expenses. You don't have to track every single day or every single week or month or a year. But if you have an audited for a while, then tracking to figure out where the money is going and plugging the leaks is the very, very first step. Then you take a look at where you want to allocate those
resources and I have a whole hierarchy, right? You grab the match first, right? Because the 401k matches the is the best return that you're ever going to get on your money. If you've got high
interest rate debt, you move to that second, then you come back and you max out the rest of those
retirement accounts. Then you look at any other tax-advented savings opportunities that you have. So that's your HSAs, although they could go higher if you have some incentive dollars in the mix. You're 529s. And finally, you wrap it up if there's additional money and you don't have a goal that you want to use it for at that point. It goes in a discretionary broker's account to use for later because there will be a point at your life where you want to use it.
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So I think with gen X and some of the younger boomers, they have this unique thing where they
“are sometimes taking care of their alien parents. But also life is hard for us millennials and”
Gen Z. And so they're sometimes living at home or taking care of adult children. So how do you set financial boundaries that protect your retirement without feeling like you're also failing your family? It's the hardest question. And it's really, really the hardest question. And I think the parent side of it is harder than the kids side of it because those adult children, even if they're living at home, many of them have the ability to contribute in some way to not be a
drain on resources, maybe just level set with the resources you're giving them a place to live, but they're saving some money so that they can eventually move out on their own and everybody
“benefits in that way. It's the parent side of things that is the big problem because adults who are”
caring for their parents are coming at a pocket an average $7,000 a year in the un-reimbursed expenses. And that is a Roth IRA contribution for many, many people. The best defense is actually a good offense. If you can get ahead of this and figure out what's coming your way in the future, which means having the conversation with your parents about how they're situated for their own retirement, then you can start to do some planning about if and when you're going to be asked
to start contributing to their care and feeding. Without that information, it comes as surprise and it throws a monkey wrench into the works right when you're exactly in the situation you describe, right? You've got your own kids either at college or coming back home. You've got your own retirement that you are desperately trying to fully fund and now you've got this third
“leg that you have to start paying for. So try to figure out how”
how that's going to play out in advance if you can. It also tends to, and I know this because of my family's structure. I'm the only girl and I'm the oldest and it tends to fall on us.
I have amazing brothers. I have three amazing stepbrothers when our parents who didn't need
financial help but needed help help around because they were not well. It was on me, right? I was the one who got the phone call. I was the one who had to strategize and do the sort of blocking and tackling. Yeah, I'm a family member. Yeah, the logistics. Look, and it was a pleasure, right? My husband and I moved during COVID to be closer to my mom. We left our house in in Westchester County, New York. We moved to Philadelphia across the street from my mom. I am so grateful that we were there
for the last few years of her life. So, so grateful, but this is not something that you take on yourself. This is something where if you have siblings, you gather everybody or you gather them individually. My mom really did not like the concept of family meetings. She felt like
ones of them always felt ganged up upon. So she was like, "No, I will talk to everybody individually."
So, okay, no family meeting. But you talk to everybody and you figure out how people can contribute and how people can come into town and whether people can kick in money if money is needed to be kicked in. It doesn't have to fall on one child alone. I'm not sure not only child like me,
It's fine.
something that's a deep fear of mine because yeah, I am an only child and my parents again are financially okay, but oh, it's something that keeps me awake at night and I hope they keep their health as long as possible. Okay, so you mentioned tax advantage accounts. So, again, for the listener, these are government incentivized accounts that you can start investing in for retirement, for your kids' college, but we get questions about HSAs a lot, which are health savings accounts,
which can either be just normal savings accounts or the best case scenario. They're souped up and they're investing accounts. So, can you talk more about HSAs as an investing vehicle and why they're
so powerful? I love HSAs. I think HSAs, I don't know how HSAs ever made it through the tax code,
but they're evidently thinking of even expanding them further, which is amazing. So, an HSA health savings account is what they call triple tax free, which means the money goes into the account and you get a tax deduction for putting it there, like a traditional IRA. While the money is in the account, if you invest it, it can grow tax free. And when you pull the money out, as long as you use it for qualified medical expenses, you will pay no taxes on those withdrawals.
So, the hack, the souped up way to use it, is to invest the money. Most HSAs have an investment
“feature. A lot of people don't realize it. You have to actually turn it on and sometimes you need”
a minimum balance in order to be able to invest that money, but you can typically invest it in a portfolio of mutual funds. They probably won't be as many as in your 401k, but there will be enough. You'll find something that looks like an index fund and you can invest the money. And then you pay for your health care expenses out of your current cash flow. So, the trick is if you don't need the money inside the HSA to pay for, go into the doctor, buy new prescriptions, you just pay for it
out of your checking account, but you save your receipts forever. And when you get to the point where you want to start pulling money out of that HSA, you can pull it out tax free against those receipts that you have just kept for years. So, even if you don't have in the here and now of the future, enough medical expenses to justify those withdrawals, you can still make them because you had a
“doctor's bill in 2026. And so, that's how it works. If you get to the end of the road and you don't”
have enough medical expenses to justify the withdrawals, then the withdrawals are just treated like 401k withdrawals. And you will be taxed as ordinary income. But by that point, you should be able to have accumulated a lot of bills over time. And you can use the money coming out of your HSA
to pay for Medicare premiums, which is amazing. Again, everybody, these are in fantastic tools.
We haven't spent enough time talking about them, we just haven't had the bandwidth. But I think the thing about saving receipts is so great. Now, you could be the person that saves the $2 Walgreens or Dwayne Reed, like I bought a band-aid, a pack of band-aid. So, you could be that person.
“But I think we're talking more about, like I got my wisdom to you for moved, and it was a lot”
at a pocket. Like we're talking about the things that actually feel probably more significant, but you can go the, again, I bought something for $5. I believe, and I'd have to fact-check myself on this. I believe HSA is, I know SSA is, but period and menstrual products are also covered. Do you know this, Gene? Is it just a question? I think that they are now covered. But there's a site online called HSA Store. There's also one called FSA Store, and they carry
all the products. So covered smart. That are covered. So you can double check yourself. Okay, so my follow-up question with HSA is, before we move on, is HSAs are usually given to you because you have a very high deductible health plan, right? You're deductible's a couple thousand plus dollars. I remember I had the only reason I have an HSA is that was my health insurance
when I first went out on my own to run HFK full-time, as I'm like, I'm relatively young and healthy,
I don't know how much income I'm going to be bringing in, so I'm going to cho...
deductible health plan. So how do you determine whether the HSA benefits outweigh a potentially
“really high deductible? If you've got some kind of a chronic health condition and predictable health”
expenses that you know that you're going to have, it's generally not going to be the right thing for you. It's for healthier people. We used to say it's for younger, healthier people, but in fact, health span has increased so much that you've got people in there in their 40s, 50s, only 60s who are quite healthy who rarely go to the doctor and would be just fine with an HSA. But if you know that over the course of a year, you are the kind of person who gets tests and
and sees doctors regularly and has things pop up, this is just not the account for you. Yeah. So the thing I hear over and over and over again from women in their 40s and their 50s, but honestly, every generation is I feel so behind and it's too late for me.
“I remember on my book tour this was a couple of years ago. This came up in every city. I think”
there was a Q&A at the end and somebody would stand up and it was usually somebody who was like 20s, 30s and they would go, I feel so behind what do I do and I would ask the room. I was like, hey, a vulnerability moment. If you feel like you're behind, will you raise your hand? And I'm not kidding. Every single person in that room didn't matter if they were 19, didn't matter if they were 75, they raised their hand. So I feel like this is generally a feeling that every single person
has about money is that we feel like we're not doing enough. But I think uniquely with people, especially women in their 40s and 50s, it feels like it's too late to start so why would I
debunk that for me? Well, first of all, as we already talked about, I started late, right? And
there are, there are a lot of rules of thumb and I'm sure you like some of them and you don't like others of them. I like some of them and I don't like others of them. But one I do like is is that if you can get yourself to the point where you're saving 15% on a pretty consistent basis, you're investing that money over a period of decades, you will generally have enough at retirement. And you can benchmark your way there years, years ago, fidelity investments
released this series of benchmarks that a lot of people find absurd and daunting. I've published them on my socials at times and I get a lot of hate for these. But in fact, if you save 15% kind of regularly, you get there. So the benchmark, so that by age 30, you want to have about one times your current income, put away for retirement at 43 times at 56 times at 68 times. And by the time you retire, you want to have 10 times your current income, put away for retirement. And if you look at those
“numbers and you think, oh my god, never going to get there, then you have to get over the 15% mark.”
If you want to be able to achieve those benchmarks. And those benchmarks are basically that you can
replace your pre-retirement income, 85% of it, for a 30 year retirement. So if you get to the end of the road and those benchmarks are not coming up pretty fast, then you know that you need to adjust your savings rate. Our savings rate is something that is really in our control. Like if we look at all the stuff, can't control the markets, can't control interest rates, can't control inflation, can control how much we save and how much we spend, at least to some,
at least to some degree. If you're living paycheck to paycheck to paycheck, it's harder. And I think one of the things I tell people as well is it's like, do I wish you started when you were 20? Yeah, I do. There was probably a lot of reasons you didn't. Life was expensive. You didn't know how to navigate money. You had children to take care of. You had a daily family member to take care of. It's like there's a lot of reasons you probably didn't start sooner. So do I wish you would start
it at 20? Yeah. Is it too late for you? Absolutely not. And you might not have millions and millions of dollars. That's probably not the reality for the most people listening. But you might have 200k or you might have enough where the market can support you and growing your money. And again, it's not just to 65. You're hoping to have those market returns after that too. So I just hate
The all or nothing mindset.
perfectly or not at all. We just talked about that when I was on your show. Is it like the
perfectionism mindset or the like, I'm either going to do it 100%. Correctly or I'm not going to do it at all is so nihilistic. And it's also just it's not helpful. Do we wish you had more money?
“Yeah. But that's not the reality. So you have to do what you can. And I promise 100,000 dollars”
is better than zero dollars. It is. And one of my favorite and I really like data. So I'm sorry if I'm throwing it. No, I love it. No, you're not not. But one of my very favorite statistics is that if you can get yourself to work, just an extra three to six months at the end of your career, it's like adding one percent to your savings, your retirement savings for 30 years. And the math works because you're income at that point in your life is at a higher point.
So you know, you can't get a full doover, but you can make up a lot of ground with little things. And there are there are other levers that you are going to want to pull. If you are feeling like you don't have enough savings of your own, it makes it even more important to delay claiming social security, right? You want to get to that point where you are just maxing out those
“benefits. It's something that I think most people want to do anyway. But if you're feeling”
and particularly for women because of our longer life spans, you just want to make sure you're going to get as much as you possibly can. And if you've got a spouse and you're in the workforce, you're going to want to make sure that you're not only maxing out your benefits, but that you're focusing on survivor benefits. Because you're going to outlive him. So statistically, those survivors, yeah, focus on those survivor benefits when you decide when to claim.
Yeah, the last thing I'll say as well is that if you have not taken a look at a retirement calculator, because you're too afraid to look, it is potentially daunting, yes, just like this fidelity study, right? It has the potential of making you go, oh shit, I'm so far behind. But it is information that you can use one of my favorite things that I would do, especially my early 20s, is I would sit at work when I was like, I hate my job, I hate my life to have to do this
for the next 30 years. And I would go on retirement calculators. And I would say, okay, if I just
“contributed $50 more a month or even $20 more a month, how does that change? How long I have to work?”
And you would be shocked how many months, if not years, it shaves off. By just you saying, okay, I'm going to contribute 1% more to my 401k or I'm going to contribute $50 more a month to my Roth IRA. It's crazy. So if you haven't done that, especially if you're like 40s or even 50s, start taking a look at that, because that's another small thing that you can do to immediately save yourself some time. Yeah, and the other thing to look at is, what do you expect life in
retirement to look like? Yeah, totally. If you haven't thought about that and get really concrete, like, where is it going to be when is it going to be? Who are you going to be with? What are you going to do? Are you going to work? Are you going to work for pay? Are you going to work not for pay? How much is it going to cost? I mean, you're driving to an estimate of how much it's going to cost,
because lacking that information, you never know what your number really is. Yeah.
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Okay. I have some questions from our audience. And these are going to be a little more rapid fiery. Are you ready? I'm ready. Okay. Cool. For 20 something's listening. Someone asked what
Can I do now in my 20s?
getting to the point where you are maxing out on retirement. A lot of people in their late 20s
are still struggling with high rents where they're living, with paying down college debt, which is unfortunately going to drag on longer than we hoped. You want to get to the point where you are maxing out because then you're going to hit that 15% that we talked about and it's going to be smooth sailing from there. How do I know what I'm investing too much? It's so funny that this is one of the questions because I had this discussion with my son and daughter-in-law. So I have two kids and
two stepkids. My husband's, my husband's son and his wife. Both were maxing out there for a 1K is additionally making contributions into IRAs. And I looked at their numbers and it was just they were saving to such a degree that I wondered if they were having enough fun. I think that's look, I love saving. I'm a big believer in saving, but I also think life can be really short and unpredictable. And we work in order to enjoy ourselves. And if you feel as if you're meeting your goals,
your saving goals for emergencies, for retirement, and then you're going above and beyond,
“and you're not having enough fun. That's not a lot. That's a sustainable. And yeah, and you should”
allow yourself, I mean, thoughtfully, to think about what do you want your money to actually do for you? Why do you work? What are you doing this for? Because it's not just to see a growing balance in an account. I mean, I guess that's fun for fun. It's fun, but particularly kind of fun. But it's not the kind, it's not being in the Canadian Alps fun. It's not being on a paddleboard fun. It's not riding a horse fun or whatever, fly fishing fun. It's not that. I don't know,
lately, I have a thing I really want to try fly fishing. I don't know why, but, but you you've got to figure out what lights you up and make some space for that. When I did one,
I won coaching with people way back the beginning of her first underkay. I remember meeting one of
my clients, and she was like, this was at the beginning. So we sat down and we went through, you know, where are you saving? What are you saving? And she was like, I'm saving 90% of my income, and I don't feel like it's enough. And I literally, I was like, "Girl, I had to tell you to spend money. I was
“like, you don't think this is enough." But I think that is, this is the classic thing where money is”
emotional. So we had to unpack, like, why are you doing that? And it turns out, you know, hadn't grown up with a lot of money, felt a lot of scarcity around it. It was worried the other shoe was going to drop was like, okay, I'm going to save all of my money. And again, not sustainable. Yeah. Yeah. And if you feel like really there's nothing that you want, give some away, because that feels really, yeah. Yeah, it does. Okay, quote, I'm getting divorced and losing money
for my 401(k) and my screwed. Uh, it feels like you're screwed. I know that it feels like you're screwed. Because you've read all of these horror stories that say, don't take the house and take the retirement. And that is really good advice, right? Because the retirement continues to grow the house is a liability in many cases. You're not screwed. You just have to course correct and
“figure out where you are in terms of your retirement trajectory and what you need to do to”
get yourself back on track. But chances are there was a decent enough balance in that 401(k) for your soon to be extra fight for it. So figure out where you are, where you want to go and just start stepping your way there. Is a career change worth it if I have to go back to school for two
years, but I'll make more ultimately. And maybe we can talk about if they don't have to take on
debt to do that versus if they have to take on debt to go back to school. Before you go back to school, I would look at what are the other ways to get this knowledge without going back to school. You know, is this, is this a field like finance in some cases where you got to have an MBA? I think it's not as true as it is it used to be, but there used to be a hurdle where you needed that MBA in order to, in order to get promoted in order to climb the corporate ladder.
When I was a reporter fresh out of school, I wanted to go to a business magazine
because in my first job, I got the opportunity to report about business. And I liked it. I thought
it was fun. I wanted to pursue it. I had a colleague who had come out of the fact-checking pool at Forbes and she just said it was the best job ever. So I wanted to be a fact-checker at Forbes. So I went in and I interviewed to be a fact-checker at Forbes and the chief of reporters there very quickly figured out that I knew nothing about business and told me that I needed to go get an MBA. And I didn't want to go back to school. It would have been a lot of debt, but also I wasn't in the
mood. So I went and worked on Wall Street for two years and figured out that he didn't really need me to have an MBA. He needed me to know how to read a balance sheet. And I could get that knowledge and get paid for getting that knowledge. So maybe there's a work around. So I would I would
try to find that first. If you do have to go back to school, I would look at whether you can
“work and go back to school at the same time. And then if you have to take on debt, I would be”
very, very careful that you know that that career path with the step up and income is going to be there when you get out. My final quickfire question for you. What accounts can I open for my kids? You can open a variety of accounts for your kids. You can open Agma accounts for your kids and accounts for your kids is our uniform gift to minors account. So our uniform trust to minors accounts. These are brokerage accounts where the money is invested for them. Sometimes there's a
tax reason for using these kind of accounts. You can open 529 accounts in order to save
for their college educations. But I actually think the most important account to open for them
“is a linked checking or savings account to yours. Because that's the only way that they're ever”
going to learn about money. When my kids were teenagers, I opened linked accounts. I got them debit cards. We started giving allowance electronically. If they wanted cash, they had to sit down with me and watch me transfer the money out of their account and into my account so that I would be the ATM and give them the cash until they could drive and then they could go get their own cash. But they knew how to handle these tools before they went off to college and that turned out to be really
important. So you've reinvented yourself many times throughout your career. What would you say to a woman in midlife who's trying to start over and just feeling financially paralyzed? Have I actually reinvented myself? I don't know. Have you? I didn't really feel that way. Honestly, I kind of feel like I've been doing the same thing. I mean, I think I really wanted to do that. But I think, right? Yeah, I mean, I started a business. But it was sort of, it's also been
personal finance. But you went through a lot of transition when you're a 40 though.
“I mean, I can kind of, you know, and I think that that is like the identities we carry, right?”
Like, I think your career identity probably hasn't shifted. But your divorce persons have a parent. Like, that's a lot to take on, especially in one year. So that's, I think, let's talk about that as like reinventing. Yeah. Okay. Okay. So to a woman who is financially paralyzed, don't quit what you're doing until you know where you want to go, right? I think we can shift while we're in motion. And having that consistent income is what you need to present to prevent,
like a greater degree of paralysis that could potentially undo you. So if you have a job, but you're still feeling a little bit stuck, keep the job. And then use your free time to explore and figure out the other things you want to do. And only once you sort of know where you want to jump to, where's the next lily pad, right? Then allow yourself to jump. But don't cut everything else off and then try to transition because it's very, very possible to just get mired in a place
where your resources are depleted and you feel like you made a mistake. Move slowly.
Is I think what I'm trying to say?
day. Right? Like, don't get the lead over all your life until, you know, because there's one place that's already chaos. So you don't want to add more chaos until you know that it's 100% the
“thing you want. I think that's great advice. The today show made me grow out my bangs for years.”
I had bangs when I started there in the talent director said we can't see your eyes.
You got to grow the bangs out. And I never said this to her, but when I turned 50, I was like,
fuck you. I'm getting my bangs back. And I went and I got my bangs. And I just went to work the next day. And I never never said another word about it. Yeah, it makes me so happy. Gene, I think I've told you
“this, but both on and offline, but I don't think I would have a job if you didn't exist. And so,”
I grew up watching you. My parents are always like, oh, what has changed? So thank you for your work.
Thank you for everything that you've done both in this space and outside. I'm going to try to not get more theory than I already am, but thank you for your work. Thank you for your contribution. Where can people find out more about you? Thank you for caring it forward. I mean, Sarah, no, it's, it's
“a crime. Yeah, you can, I'm going to cry, but it's, it's, I am friends with all the other women in our”
space. You may do. And, and you are as well. And this is, because we know that there's, there's room for a lot of voices. We need a lot of voices. And, and it's really, so, so thank you, you can find me at hermoney.com, and the hermoney podcast where, soon you'll see Tori once again. And, if you are interested in investing, I teach investing every other Monday night on Zoom with Karen Finerman, she's a CNBC person professional investor. We're picking stocks. So, this is a supplement
to your 401K and your indexed portfolio and your ETFs, but if you're curious to learn about how companies work, it's really fun. I love it. Thank you. Thank you for listening to financial
feminist, produced by her first under K. If you love this show and want to keep supporting
feminist media, please subscribe or follow us on your preferred podcasting platform or on YouTube. Your support helps us continue to bring this content to you for free. If you're looking for resources, tools and education, including all of the resources mentioned in this episode, head to her first under K.com/ss pod.
