Psalms 49–51; 61–66; 69–72; 77–78; 85–86 Part 2 • Dr. John White • August 24-30 • Come, Follow Me

We're going to look at Psalms 61. We get in here the phrase at the rock.

“We understand the rock, obviously, a metaphor is higher than I.”

The big idea here is the divine refuge taken, comforting God, transcends geography and any kind of emotional distance that security isn't God himself and they work guarded and vouched safe by God's covenant love, not our circumstances. I love it. He says Psalm 61, 2 and 4 says from the end of the earth, will I cry unto thee, when my heart

is overwhelmed, leave me to the rock that is higher than I. I will abide in thy tabernacle forever, this is verse 4 now. I will trust in the covert of thy wings.

That's a powerful passage.

It really welcomes us when he talks about the end of the earth. He's not talking about miles. It's at the end of your resources. The prayer from the place isn't make me taller.

“It's lead me to the rock, and that is higher than I.”

All formation starts with this admission, building our foundation. The new testament is on the rock, Jesus himself, which cannot fall. That's even kind of an echo of healing in chapter 5, verse 12. You're right on. I love how he says, I don't know this is, and then we think.

Yes, he does. He does. He will. I want to share a story here on 2012 when I took the job at Baylor. Similar to taking the job here at BYU, my son and I moved down, but sending the girl

stayed back as we had to sell our house and some other circumstances that postponed their move. There was this choir from Baylor that came and it's saying, "My shepherd will supply my

“need," and I'd never heard that song before.”

I started to look at who sings that song, and guess what I discovered, the Mormon Tabernacle Choir. Tab choir, baby. This is like this pre-evangelism that the guy was already starting to pull my heart strings, and I love the line no more a stranger nor a guest, and that peace and belonging

that comes when you understand the shepherd and what he supplies. When I was a boy, we moved nine times. There's a lot of instability, a lot of unpredictability.

One of the strengths is I can make friends very quickly, but I always work from this insecure

attachment because I'm wondering, are these my roots, are these my people, can I trust them? I love what we see in this song that there's a love that does not move away. There's a love that says I belong, and this is one of the signatures of the LDS community, that drew me in, is that I belonged before I believed.

Sociologists talk about this, that oftentimes people will start with this idea that you have to ascend to some belief, some dogma, some structure of any world view that one holds. But we often find ourselves in cultured, we're brought into a community, and as we belong, we believe, and that's exactly what happened to me. When I began to come here and make six trips, I began to listen to the Saints pray.

I began to go to these lab meetings with Dr. Nelson with all of our students, the way they love the way they accepted me. For someone who works for me in secure attachment, that was startling to me, like these people don't even know me, and they're accepted me in loving me. Again, that was a portrait of God's acceptance and God's love of me.

Because I began to then journey, I recognized that these people who often have been misunderstood because it was a day at that point, Scripture says, New Testament, that you will be known by your love, they discipled me without me knowing it. They tutored my heart, they squled my heart, then when I started to read the book of Mormon, I started to get more evidence, it made the transition easy, because I understood that

I now belong, I'm just the decision away of fully trusting in this and getting baptized. I like that move there in Psalm 61, and then Psalm 62 is this idea of an unshaken rest

of the soul, as found exclusively in God, but his powers always match by a steadfast love.

Again, no status or wealth can ground it six times and six verses. It uses a word only in verse 1, 2, 4, 5, 6 and 9. Only God, not God plus savings, not God plus reputation, only God. Then verse 1 declares the rest, truly my soul weighteth upon God, verse 5, we must command my soul weight that only upon God.

We see this stillness is not some kind of personality type, it's a practice, trust is re-choes and over and over, we weight, we trust, we weight, we trust, and as we get more

I want to make a hand off now, though, from Psalm 62 it stills a soul, Psalm 63 aims the soul.

“This is one I've been waiting to talk about, let me take some time to unpack this, there's”

a lot going on in Psalm 63. He says, "My flesh longeth for thee, for the big idea is that community with God so surpasses all other earthly good, including life itself, the even the wilderness deprivation where we're parked and we're dry, becomes the occasion for the soul's deepest satisfaction. Most of you don't know this, the early church, meaning the broader early church tradition.

Not just the other store gospel early church. Psalm 63 was the fixed morning Psalm of every Sunday, service. For centuries, Christians began the Lord's Day by saying, "Early will I seek thee." I'm a morning person. I'd a paper out when I was a kid, it started for AMs.

When I then became a Jesus follower, it wasn't hard for me to start seeking the Lord hurry in the morning. Versus my brother, when I gave the paper out over to him, my dad would look out there at five in the morning. He's fall, he had fallen asleep over the papers.

So my brother prays at night, he doesn't pray in the morning.

Psalm 63 here, the first point is you don't have a third.

I really like this. I don't believe you have a third. You are a third. O God, thou art my God, early will I seek thee. My soul, thirsteth for thee, my flesh, longeth for thee, in a dry and thirsty land where

no water is. I like how it even starts there. O God, thou art my God, notice it starts covenant relationship that we belong to God. That should then catapult us, that should dispose us to want to seek Him. He uses the language of the soul as human beings, we're no like ghost in the machine.

This is very concrete. In fact, I love the Hebrew language here. It talks about the throat. That's the organ of thirst, the whole living, wanting self is thirsting.

As embodied people were thirsting and as early as the dawn, our first movement of waking

consciousness should be forgotten. It escalates here and moves from identity, thou art my God, to pursuit, this soul thirst and this body ache. It's interesting that DNC talks about that the spirit and the body are the soul of man.

“The restoration, I think, defines the soul, the way Psalm 63 does and the way that it's”

prayed here. David's flesh bodily longing isn't sub-spirish. It's the soul doing what souls do, we're supposed to reach out for these kinds of things. As in body creatures, the body makes possible a breath and depth and intensity of experience. In this interesting elder bednar, he has a talk on things as they really are and he goes

into the body there in ways that I've never, I mean, it's so enriching.

I think you even seek resonance here, this idea that as human beings, we can't talk about what it means to be human apart from the body. In fact, a lot of philosophers talk about the difference between people who think they have a body, merely have a body versus I am a body, that we are bodies. On one level, you can use the language, I have a body, but we are in body creatures and

we don't want to deny or suppress that somehow that's sub-spiritual. There's a view early on in the first three, four centuries, church called Nostasis and somehow the body is evil. Here we have way before that heretical belief, David's showing us that the body is good. In fact, the body has thirsts and longing. It ought to be ultimately longing for God.

Moving this along, this is where a C.S. Lewis has really helped me a lot. He has this argument from desire. The Psalm fits in there really well. He says, "If I find it myself a desire, which no experience in this world can satisfy, the most probable explanation is that I was made for another world." Lewis talks about that hunger corresponds to food, thirst, to water, so why do humans carry

a longing? Nothing that finite, creaturely reality can satisfy is because we are made for

“God. Even Ecclesiasi says eternity is set in our hearts. The only thing you can satisfy”

is something that's infinite, all the omnis that we know as far as the attributes of God. David's thirst ultimately is for God himself. We see, and even he says in verse 2, "The sanctuary." That's pretty cool. This is something I'm really looking forward to. I can only go into the temple for proxy baptisms, so I'll get my, it's a temple endowment here in October. In fact, I meet with my bishop this week, we're working through reading Anthony

Sweat, holy invitation. I'm really excited that you see the role of this temple and sanctuary in the Psalms 2, and I really can't speak to that from the restoration gospel completely

I've had my kids read those before they've gone through the temple.

“Well, what we see here then, that communion deepens longing. It doesn't retire it. As we connect”

with God in the temple, as we connect with God in the sacrament meetings, this should only strengthen and fortify our worship, our trusting and God. Then point three here, better than life, this is a bold claim, if you think about it. He says, "Because I love and kindness is better than life, my lips shall praise thee." I love that quote by Joseph Smith. He says, "Could you gaze into heaven five minutes? You would know more than you would by reading all that was ever written on the subject.

The five minutes of seeing heaven reorders all our values. If we really understand God's loving kindness, we should value it more than anything than life itself." Now, some people say, "Well, what does that mean? Well, God wants to preserve our lives, so by loving God, then we're getting a life with Him that preserves us in eternal, the abundant life." The extremes of people go, we see people are martyred for the faith. They're willing to give

up their own life because they've had this sacred encounter. They know God. Most of us aren't going to have to do that, but that's people who've been really caught up in this trance, like Joseph Smith as far as gazing into heaven. Stills the soul and aims the soul. That can set that idea that

rightly ordered love is always going to be done in and toward God. A gust and this is where I

think he's brilliant. Seeing a gust and was perplexed by how can I love God with all my heart soul mind and mind and have anything left over for anything less than God? The way that he can figure this is, we love everything in and toward God. In fact, Catholic theologians go so far to say that any instance of love needs to be properly suspended and connected to God. So you can say on one hand, I love ice cream. I make sure you love ice cream appropriate to the kind of

creaturely good that it is. So I don't love ice cream the same way I love my dog. I don't love my dog the same way I love my spouse and I don't love my spouse the exact same way I love God, but God is the purpose everything is loved in and toward him. All earthly penultimate goods should

“be loved properly in relation to God. And that's why we need to cultivate this this thirst and the”

right directions so that they're aimed ultimately towards God as our object of adoration and love. The Book of Mormon in a says my soul hungert. It's so embodying again another witness to the thing that I discovered as I read the Book of Mormon. I just started seeing that it places a premium on our materiality. Theologically we talk about the scandal, the incarnation. God became man in the restored gospel. There's even a bigger scandal. Jesus only became what was already true

of the father. He is fully embodied. He has flesh. He has bones. He has a face. You guys want another intertextuality thing here? Yeah, let's do it. Let's do it. Look at Psalm 63-5. In verse 5 my soul shall be satisfied as with marrow and fatness. So my soul is satisfied with fatness. Now look at 2nd Nephi 9. Verse 51. Feast upon that which perish it's not neither can be corrupted and let your soul delight in fatness.

Wow. Second Nephi 9.51. It's not often you see that word fatness. I know I thought this is

one to put on your fridge. Let your soul delight in fatness. Right? Go for it. I never seen that

until right now, but I know that's in second Nephi. Good connection. That's awesome. All right, John, what should we do next? Look at in verses 4 through 6 of 63. Notice what the body does here. The body is being shaped. It's a performance or practice that's getting the body properly aimed. It says hands lifted up, not grasping, mouth praising, not consuming, night thoughts meditating, not worrying. Every faculty is redirected from food, from wealth and worry to God.

This profound. These are daily habits. Even when I come to church, what am I doing with my body that's training me towards these right aims? I said, I did my dissertation on John Paul II. He talks about that every human action has two directions. There's a transitive that's something you're doing in the world. You're altering the world somehow that I opened the door. That door was an open before

by me, so I did something. But it's always reflexive. Whenever I'm doing outwardly,

“reflexively is doing something to me inwardly. When I think about my daily habits,”

what am I doing outwardly? This shaping my character inwardly? The song is getting at this idea. A very practical concrete. When I lift my hand. When I open the door to help someone,

generous, more other regarding, more kind. If we start to connect those dots, we start to see that God has given us ways and means here on earth the deep in His presence and His character in our lives. We need to become cognizant about the kinds of things that we practice. Daily practice. Even just kneeling down for prayers. There's something different about that act. It's very small. But it's different than standing or laying in your bed. It's just a little different.

Before you guys asked me to do the Psalms, I made a conscious decision to start 2026 to do the morning evening prayers of the Psalms. When you asked me, I was in Psalm 128,

“I think. So I stopped because I wanted to go back and start preparing for this. Back in May,”

whenever you ask me. One of the first things I tried to do is before I put my feet on the ground

to start my day. I would read a Psalm. Sometimes I get on my knees too. I like this idea. One of the practices I say that God, you are everything that had breath, praise the Lord, the very breath that I'm going to use to pray these prayers. I just want to be cognizant that you just stained me through another night. I could have not woke up. So just being conscious of God as the author and finisher of my physical body, but also the author and finisher of my

spiritual direction too. And you're saying they're connected. What I do with my physical body affects my spiritual self. Absolutely. That's the real job of the second. Once again, it's brilliant that the body is a visible manifestation of invisible realities. I think if we understand that then

“when we're doing our bodies, how is it working in concert with divine spiritual truths?”

Where does he say my arms are verse four? I had written so much in verse five. I had written that in verse four. I noticed another reference like that in Psalm 119 verse 48, my hands also will I lift up unto thy commandments, which I have loved. I will meditate in thy statutes. John, this might be outside of your expertise. I don't know, but the idea of I will lift up my hands. Is that an ancient way of praying? His hands up because we fold our arms. We bow. But it seems that

in the Old Testament, they say that frequently with prayer. My hands will reach up. I know in the Episcopal tradition, when before they do the Eucharist, they say we lift up our hands and our hearts. Their oftentimes going back to the Psalms are going back to the ancient traditions. But you really see that the point you're making is that you see the body as an full exercise in worship. If we're not careful, worship can be kind of disembodied. And that's

doing a disservice to the fact that I've got as created us. Even when we die, we know that our body is separated from our soul. Paul says, that's not natural. When the resurrection comes,

we're getting those bodies back, a glorified body. God always intended for us to be in a body

soul relationship. This is an analog to the fact of the Father. It has a body too. We don't want to deny or suppress that. The body is a good thing when it's properly stewarded. When you first heard that doctrine of our theology, that was probably something you'd never heard before. When you look at some of the anti-LDS or Mormon literature, they take us to task on that. They've pounded that one. Yeah, they do. Sometimes we're privileging if we're not careful

“for the alternative view. Somehow, as if Spirit is more important than mattered. Most people”

believe in creation X-Nahilo. God is the only one that's eternal. But I'd love it that we were all in this pre-mortal relationship in this heavenly council. We're co-eternal. We're not co-divine, we're co-eternal. We will evolve and become this participation in the divine nature.

You see that in second Peter? The Greek Church deification. I mean, for a lot of evangelical

Protestant, that seems heretical. But Deven Lewis says that he became human so that we could become gods. We could become like god. I didn't have any problem with that. Once I started working through that, you know, a lot of the stuff, too, I was taught, for example, a pre-mortal existence in my divinity courses. But they poo poo that and they talked about that that was seen as heretical by origin. But I remember mentally shelving that there's something there

as far as god bringing into completion. But I do know what to do with it because they weren't around me. I would have definitely been seen as the minority view for sure. I've been probably the only person. But then I can go back and say, hey, I can get on board with this. I remember having this discussion with Janay at a conference that she was at, not far from my house, so I went

I was convinced that it's true. Seems like it was just an ongoing unfolding of me getting new revelations to explain where there was questions that had been answered. No. Is that why ritual is so important? We think of baptism. It's a very tactile experience. The sacrament. The temple is the same way it's clothing and ritual. Is that because we need to involve our bodies in our worship?

“Absolutely. That's why I'm so excited about the temple because people know”

that I come from more of a high, they call it high church, high liturgy and they're like, oh, you're going to love the temple. Again, I'm being prepared for this. It makes me want to

cry and just like, this is amazing. Now I'm going to get one can argue the apex of this.

I mean, this is a miniature form of what will the new have their new earth will be and I'm just preparing me for this to have these sacred encounters and expect to meet and know God in ways there that that I don't know him in an ordinary time. Yeah. It's important to have that body movement. I really appreciate that. Yeah, I really like the way you've put this because it's why are you doing that little thing?

Why are we passing around trays of bread? Well, it's important for us to use our bodies in our worship. Why walk into this water and feel the water and go under the water and it seems like it's a very fairly touchy experience. Yeah, I mean, think about all I can do is proxy baptisms, but those dead can't go into fleshly tabernacles. I can physically represent them in the here and now see the connection there to the body one Jesus and third Nephi right one by one physically

going to people. I had that hermeneutic that interpretive grid from my dissertation and now it just is like reified, amplified, blown up when it's like as I come into the restore gospel. Yeah, there's probably lots of times I knew it. I knew it. I was right.

“Jill and this has blessed me. I think it's going to bless a lot of people because they're”

seeing it through the eyes of somebody that has come from a different place. If I can speak

for some of our audience, maybe I'm right a lot of us. We won't wow. I've always had this.

I've taken this for granted. Hey, I'm writing down notes for my future classes as I'm sure you are. Jill and did you train friendships? Did you lose friends? What kind of sacrifices did you make to be here today? After I was baptized in October of 2025, key events happened October forming. I'm not sure why the month of October other than just happened that way. October 2023 was when I got my first visible witness from Dr. Nelson.

Then I was in a conference a year later, same conference where I had met Dr. Nelson, our Janae, but as a New York city, in advance, a team of us from Baylor and BYU were going to present some papers there. So I was joining a presentation with Dr. Nelson and one of her graduate students. Then some other Baylor folks were there too. But in advance, I said, hey, to Janae and to Jodie, Jensen. I said, hey, we're going to be a few hours from this place called

Paul Myron, Sacred Grove. I was wondering, I said, are you guys familiar with it? I was being genuine. They were real humble. They were like, yeah, we're, we're familiar with it. I said, what would you both think if we road trip there after the conference is over? This is where I was starting to really, there was in the thick of my investigation. So I was like, I need to go there. Yeah, I need to learn about this first hand. They agreed that we would go. So we went to the

sacrament meeting. This is where my conversion happened. Marona, I 10, 4 and 5. And at that time, I didn't realize that that's the missionary promise. It's just like John 3, 16. I heard someone give their testimony and they cited those verses. And it really quickened my heart. I was like, wow, that's a profound verse. And then I had read through the whole book a Mormon yet. Then when we

“ascended Hill, Kamora, we read it together. We read, I think we read most of Marona, I 10. Not just”

those verses. And then we got to the top that inscription is on the Angel Marona, I statute. That's three times. Now, at that time, I'm still trying to tell you, father's son Holy Ghost. We still believe in the Godhead three person. It just so I was like, wow, that's three. That's an

incredible witness. After the Sacred Grove, we went to the Grand In Press. And the senior missionary.

I didn't even know there was something a senior missionaries. The woman said to me, when we got to the second floor, there was Marona, I 10, 4 and 5. description. She goes, why don't you put your name in place of the ye and read it aloud? It was just a small group of us. I could barely get through it. I started to weep. I started to cry. After that trip, I began to

converted. Then we decided, this fellowship that I got with Baylor University, the last segment

“of that fellowship to finish my responsibilities for the grant was to come back in October and”

present a paper at the Book of Mormon Culture Conference. I decided to get baptized on October 26 because that's when it's all started. So I got baptized. I now, I'm teaching in an institution that doesn't allow tenured folks to be LDS. I'm in a difficult situation. I can continue here for a little bit longer with integrity and just not teach anything against the restored gospel or against Baylor. I was going to postpone my baptism and can be Clark mentored me. He really took

me under his wing and started to encourage me. He would text me regularly. I met with him and Sue. We went to their ward. His son Jonathan was the bishop there and we went to lunch to his house afterwards. I said, I just want to lay it out. I said, once I get baptized, I'm going to have to resign or get fired. Maybe I should postpone my baptism. He goes, oh no, do not postpone your baptism.

Oh, this is just following through. He goes, basically it's trust God on this. Here he was

former dean of the Harvard Business School. So even killed patients his composure. He's believing the best. He's trusting God and part of me is thinking, it's easy for you to say that to me. I decided to go forward and to be baptized. I came back home knowing that I had to make it a decision. I knew I'd lose my job. I thought, I don't know where I'm going to work. So I started some conversations with people at BYU. Then it looked like months later that was going to be a

position for me. I go to this annual conference called the Academy of American Religion and Society Biblical Literature. I have a good group of friends. We're talking best friends. They know everything and I tell them pretty much everything. They knew I was working going back for BYU and they were

really excited for me. The last night before we fly home, the next day we go out as a group.

And they've seen that I'd stop drinking. I mean, this group would like to go to pubs. They'd seen these outward changes of me. The Lord said, you're going to tell them tonight. I was like, I don't know if I don't think I can tell them. I just don't think I can do it. This is going to be so hard. But I thought this is true that I need to testify. We'd finish dinner and I hadn't told

“me yet. They were going to a pub. I remember the Lord saying, you better tell them earlier,”

rather than later, because the more they drink, the more contentious or this could go for on the direction sideways. We're walking to the pub and we see the old South church. They wanted to go inside and God said to me, I remember this. It wasn't audible, but it was impression he goes, sacred sight. This is where you're going to tell them. And so I was like, ah, so we go inside. It's quiet. It was about ready to close. We were in the chapel area, the sanctuary. I turned

to say, hey, guys, I got good news. And I got surprising news. I had to, I had to pitch it that way, right? The good news is it looks like I'm leaving Baylor and going to be while you. I inside the contract yet, so it's still by faith. I don't think God ever wanted me to convert, be baptized, knowing I had a job. He wanted to make sure this is full trust. He said, it looks like I'm in a hurry. And so they like, looks like it. They're concerned for me,

contractually, right? I haven't signed anything up, but it's really looking promising. Then they looked at me real quick. And they go, wait a minute, surprising news. I mean, they're logician. They knew they're like, wait, you can't work. It'd be why you. All things are equal. There are exceptions. Unless you convert a baptized, and I say, well, surprising news, I've convert a baptized. I mean, the rest of the night, the rest of the night,

I left the gathering at about 10 to 10, 10, 30, because I knew they were going to be entertaining, drinking, and usually not much happens good after 10, 10, 30 to begin with at the night,

“at a pub. Next to that solace, what do you guys talk about? Like, what do you think we talked about?”

[laughter] This is getting at some of the opposition, my best friend, a renowned scholar. On Saturday, Sunday, I get a text from him, hey, are you available next Tuesday? I'd love to get together. I waited 24 hours for I applied it at. We got together, met for an hour, and it was opposition. It was challenge. It was, why are you doing this? Why can't you postpone it?

You could lose your family over this. I mean, all these reasons you shouldn't. All these objections. This could hurt you as far as occupation. You already have 10 year. You're going to start all over. That academic guild, but you could be seen as an outcast. By the end of it, he said, I'm like a change of mind. Am I going to go nope, he goes, I didn't think I would.

they're asking all kinds of questions. They're like, was he converted when he was here? We heard

even baptized. In my letter resignation, I just made it clear. I said, you didn't know. I fully affirm the mission values of BYU and the church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-day Saints. That was my way of saying, hey, I wanted them. There's just been some awkwardness people have talked to other

“people, but if they're really my friends, why don't they come to me and talk to me? That's what's”

been hurtful about this whole process. I've been lonely at times. I know that've done the right thing, but just a modicum of definitely persecution. And I've heard some stuff just this absolutely not true. I was like, why would you say that? Come talk to me. That's a long answer to your question. Wow, thank you for sharing that. Famous been good to me. I'm not leaving and hate. I'm just being candid with you all.

Nothing, but respect for you, John Holy cow. What a leap of faith. It's beautiful. It's that promise obligation. I looked at the beauty and grace of the promise of a story gospel. I have to. It's necessary. Yeah. So what else mattered? For me not to do it as sin. Yeah, I know what I know. Now we don't want to let you go without walking us through a

“few more Psalms. What should we do now? Let's go to Psalm 85, 86. We already talked about Psalm 78”

that were at sins in the center of the Psalter about the compassion for gave their an equity. So let's turn to Psalm 85. And this is a great phrase. We see a parallelism here. We see where mercy and truth kiss. I like this because we see God's attributes. We see steadfast love, faith, phoneth, righteousness, and peace. They're not in competition. They converge and really guaranteeing a restoration already begun. It's already here and the very person and presence and it's near

hand through Jesus, but we await for his second return. There's kind of this dialected this tension.

You even see it in these different attributes. So let me just read this. It says mercy and truth are met together and then righteousness and peace have kissed each other. I love how he uses this to show that these virtues are not pitted against each other. Shalom or peace isn't the absence of conflict but flourishing in a right relationship. Just this is one of those necessary conditions. If things are really going as God intended, you'll find yourself an equitable

relationships. There's been a failure sometimes in Christian communities where we divorce these attributes, or justice is filing for separation from mercy. Psalm 85 shows that there needs to be this reconciliation. You see this in Almer is a chapter 42. He performs this wedding ceremony between justice and mercy. It's called the Atonement. That's a brings justice and mercy together. As an ethicist, it's easy to fight for righteousness and a private morality. We live our lives,

upstanding with integrity, but there's no gospel without social justice too. And this is where

“I think Zion is so important that we dwell in righteousness. We have responsibility to the poor”

and we're one hard in one mind. These attributes, they don't compete against each other. That the kingdom of God embraces both of these. We want instances of Zion. This is important because the evangelical background that I came out of, oftentimes, the gospel that was preached, peddled, and proclaimed, was oftentimes for my personal salvation, which it is. You become so heavenly-minded, no earthly good. Those who are most heavenly-minded are the most earthly good.

You talk about some of the greatest prophets, Martin Luther King Juniors, because he understood had a big enough hope of these attributes staying together, that he was disgruntled, dismayed when he didn't see it happening here on earth. A proper prophetic anger when you see an injustice, because you know that's not what God intended. We should be unhappy with that, dismayed with that, frustrated with that, because it's frustrating God's cosmic order and purpose.

And the gospel flourishing here on earth. That's a beautiful idea. There's a future Zion coming, but let's build Zion out to the degree that we can. Well, and we pray the prayer in the Lord's prayer. Your will done on earth as it isn't heaven. Your justice, your truth, your mercy, your loving

kindness, done here on earth as it isn't heaven. It'll always be imperfect. It'll be impartial,

but we don't give up. We should still be striving for it. There's one of our hymns. How great, how glorious, how complete, redemption's grand design, where justice, love and mercy meet

and the Love. It's a sacrament here, isn't it? Usually, it's a sacrament here. It was actually a

“talk from Elder Holland. It's called Where Justice Love and Mercy Meet. It's a great line, isn't it?”

And they kiss, according to Psalms here. Yeah, yeah. They're not fighting. They're not outdoing each other. The physicality of that. It's a metaphor, but literally that there's this organic union communion between the two. They're joining. What do you make of verse 11, John? When you see that,

does it remind you of anything? The first phrase there? Truth shall spring out of the earth.

That's a restoration phrase as well, isn't it? The Lord speaks peace to His people. Truth shall spring out of the earth in parentheses the Book of Mormon. Isn't the Book of Moses, John, truth? Well, I send forth out of the earth. Some intertextuality. It's my new word for the day. Moses, seven, sixty, two. Righteousness will I send down out of heaven, and truth will I send out of the earth to bear testimony of my only begotten. And I've seen that baby is revelation coming

down, Book of Mormon coming out of the earth. I will cause to sweep the earth as a flood. To

“gather out my an elect, I think it says John White in there. To gather out my an elect from the four”

quarters of the earth. I love to grow up Zion. Zion in the early days was thought to be a place and then more like a cause when the Lord introduces it, he doesn't really slowly with Joseph. The cause of Zion. Oh, it's a cause. Yeah, it's also a people. It's also a place. It's all the sudden an entire movement. If you were been in the early church, 1830's church, Zion was was a place. It was, yeah, it was a place and it was their point. You don't hear a lot in the church

today, but it was a place we are going to build Zion on the earth. Now we build stakes of Zion. Trying to become Zion. Well, I love that. It's both spiritual and literal. They're not reducible to one or the other. So some people want to build utopia here, heaven on earth, but we want to make sure we're doing it spiritually that those are meant to be in congruence. I love that. What the early Saints learn is that it's buildings are easier than people. John likes to say when they

brought the children of Israel out of Egypt. It was easy to get them out of Egypt. It was difficult to get Egypt out of them. Yeah, that's an old saying. It's not mine, but yeah, there's still a lot of Egypt in me. I'm just glad John that when you showed up at some sacrament meetings, you were welcomed and embraced. When I hear people tell that story and like,

“"Oh, I hope I hope I hope everybody was just like, "Hi, how are you?" Welcome. What's your name?”

Because as John, as you know, it's not always the case that when someone asks me or later they

say it's Christian, I say, "Oh, hopefully." Most of the time. Well, my first sacrament, though, it was interesting. The mics didn't work. The bread wasn't there. The bread wasn't there. Oh, no. I mean, from all hourly purposes, it seemed like a train wreck. But then the spirit showed up when we sang, is it, "I will walk with Jesus?" We sang at my baptism, along with "Be thou my vision." That's when I really felt the spirit was when we sang that. I hadn't been converted.

Yeah, this was, and then it was a very meaningful experience for me. I think it's Robert Miller talks about that our gospel doesn't need any props. Even though those things have been kicked out of my

underneath, in my first sacrament experience, the Lord showed up, the Lord proved himself and presented

himself to me. Psalm 86, "This is unite my heart." I like the movements here. Verse 1 through 7, "There's this petition for poverty for I am poor and needy and verse 8 to 10. There's this incompatibility among the gods. There is none like unto thee." And then verse 11 through 13, "This is the center. Teach me. You unite my heart." Because so here we have a whole heart of praise. Deliver me from show, 1417, and then a renewed plea as far as God's own creed, my Lord,

thy servant. You see that seven times my Lord and thy servant three times. By first point here is it, notice how in verse 15, I praise God's self-description of who He is back to Him. But thou, O Lord, are to God full of compassion and gracious, long, suffering, and plentyus,

but on the ancient and continuing confessions of the whole community. The whole community is joining

“in this. And so I think it's really important that there's this community orientation.”

And then in verse 2 says, "And you are my God," answers that electing Word, "I am the Lord, your God." And it's only answered, if one dare to say, "My God, you have to say my God,

you have to entrust yourself to be able to say my God, that you belong." That's powerful language.

You see in the Psalms, "Over and over, my God," by David. So this gets at this personal relationship. And I like a rare petition here in verse 11, "Teach me thy way, O Lord. I will walk in thy truth. He night my heart to fear thy name." One of my hopes for this whole time together is that these texts become our prayers, and that for listeners, they may feel that somehow, maybe God is repelled by their brokenness, by their doubt, by their despair, even by their unbelief. People

“push back and say, "Why is unbelief and doubt so often in the Psalms?" I think it's important”

because God recognizes that these are periods who may go through and he's catacize them for us. He's put them in there to know that it's okay to doubt. This is a part of your journey.

The problem is if you run from God instead of a place to actually entress yourself to God,

to actually call upon Him in your despair. My hope is that we would recognize that God stands ready to hear His joy and gladness from Psalm 51. We can then testify, teach, and live to this plan of the good news of happiness. One of my teaching assistants, her name's Danica Newsink. She wrote a paper on Nephi towards the end of his writing, switching from talking about Jesus to this Eglory and Truth, Eglory in My Jesus.

There's something happens from He's the communities and He's My Jesus.

Yeah, that's really good. I'm really impressed by the students at BYU.

“There's this level of maturity. If you have to go out for two years, or as a male or 18 months”

of the female, that's a significant commitment. You have to grow up pretty quickly. John's on his sixth child, getting out on a mission. My daughter's going to France and look, whoa, Leonne France mission, which is really fun because her oldest sister went there too. Oh, wow. On this last point, as far as Psalm 86/11, I really see that this is kind of a form of if you're nitty-niting your heart, fearing him a form of consecration. We surrender.

I'm in the Maxwell Institute, so I've been reading as much as I can about Neil Maxwell. In fact, I'm finishing his biography. Quite a guy elder Maxwell, huh? I want to write a book on his discipleship ethic. I see so much in what he's doing. He loves CS Lewis too. Like me. Yeah, he did. He has a phrase that he used in one of his talks. His consecration is the only surrender sung about the mind being surrendered, which is also a victory. I love that.

It's a paradox. Normally, when you surrender, you think, oh, a surrender and a victory at the same time. Exactly, because it's consecrated, it's set apart for God. And that's a victory. Verse 13 says, "For greatest diversity toward me, Taoists delivered my soul from the lowest hell. So that brings back full circle to where I started, that this is where we see the deliverance, the answer to the ransom, it's God's mercy. We see that that stands central to this whole

section of Psalms we've been looking at." John this has been fantastic. We have walked through so many Psalms and you've told us of your experiences joining the church and I think all of our listeners would say, "Welcome." I loved when you would say, "We." You are part of this. You're in. Amen. We do have quite a few listeners out there and we want to thank everyone for continued to listen. What's your message to them to our listeners? Has a new member of the church

but as a well-studied theologian? That's a great question. One is, keep God as your highest good. It's easy to allow the things of this world to meditate against, to challenge, to conflict with. We can do it in such subtle ways. I started off with this idea that it's really our view of God, that determines our view of self.

Don't opt for easy answers because the culture may be saying and questioning that knowledge of God.

“So stay in it, read the Psalms. The Psalms give us the language. Think about a little child.”

The child has to be taught how to talk by the parents and so the heavenly Father has given us the language of how to talk to him with raw emotions, how to express our grief, our sorrow. As we said, it's an anatomy of the soul, mirrors the soul. These are sacred texts that should be a part of your regimen of your spiritual, diet and disciplines and practices. But let's continue to trust in God and our trust in God is in direct correspondence to our view of God. When we teach this to

student athletes, adolescents, we know there's this prevalent view, it's called moralistic

“therapeutic deism out there. The God is just a moralistic God. He just expects you to do good,”

be a do good or he's just really here to meet your needs that the vending machine metaphor that we gave earlier. Deism, the God, has got this world going and the so holy other that he's not involved in the near and present and evidence of your life. That's a flawed view of God. We have a God who is intimately involved so much so that his own son came here to suffer for us and identify with this. He's a God who weeps. Even in the Psalms, we see echoes of Moses 7 as far as the God who weeps.

We see a God who has emotions, a God who actually feels for us. If you're broken hard, guess what? God is broken hard. If you are in despair, he's a good father. He wants to talk to you. Come and talk to him. The Psalms give us that invitation, give us that culture to shape us and how we think about God and therefore, once we think correctly about God, then we think well about ourselves and other people. It's wonderful. We love that you're a part of this church, John. I love

being a part of this church. We need to talk to you again after you go through the temple. When someone joins the church, I like John and we have hundreds of thousands that do. There's an energy that comes. An energy and excitement. If you fail to sing the song of redeeming love, can you feel so now? Thank you, John. Dr. White. Thank you for spending your day with us.

We first heard of you back when we were talking about the book of Heliman, who would have thought

then when Janay said, "Hey, I ran this by a friend of mine that that friend would now be on the show." Two years later, I just think, what a beautiful story. With that, we want to thank Dr. John White for joining us today. We want to thank our executive producer, Shannon Swordson, our sponsors,

“David and Verless Swordson, and every episode. We remember our founder. He had that same”

excitement for the gospel. John is you. Steve Swordson. We hope you'll join us next week. We've got more of the songs to cover on Follow Him. As a thank you to our wonderful listeners, we'd love to gift you the digital version of our book, "Finding Jesus Christ in the Old Testament." It offers short, meaningful insights drawn from our past Old Testament episode. Visit followhim.co that's followhim.co to download your free copy today and you'll also find the link to purchase the

print edition. Thank you for being part of our followhim family. Of course none of this could happen without our incredible production crew. David Perry, Lisa Spice, Will Stote, Crystal Roberts, R.E. L. Kuwater, Heather Barlow, Amelia Kabwica, Sidney Smith, and Annabelle Swordson.

What are your questions or problems you have? The answer is always found in the life and teachings

of Jesus Christ. Turn to Him. Follow Him.