[MUSIC]
Stephen, I have to laugh, but I don't want to laugh, Stephen.
So I'm excited to have you on today. One because you're a very fun individual.
“And I think fun people make the best guess because then I can be myself around you.”
But Stephen fish back. I have so many questions because my wife has gotten me addicted to watching reality TV. And every time I watch, I'm like, I need to bring on someone who can answer these questions. So I think it'd be great to have an understanding around reality TV. What type of person goes on a reality TV show?
Yeah, that's a great question. And I think there's probably the reality TV that I've been on, which is jungle reality television. I feel like is it's own kind of subgeneral of reality TV. And I will say that I think people would be surprised at the type of people who go on those shows, like survivor, or naked in a frayed or alone.
My experience is that the people who go on these shows are not the kind of vapid fame horse. Can I say fame horse? That society cast them on as, you know, the people who go on these shows are people who are sincerely looking to kind of have some kind of confrontation with the wilderness. They're looking to find themselves, you know, they're looking to step outside of their
“boring, normal lives, even if they're not boring, you know, I think we think of them as boring,”
just like, you know, at a desk, you know, in a routine and do something different, where they're going to like get to the bottom of who they are. And the fact that that's happening in the context of a reality television show, which is sort of this ridiculous, you know, disposable cultural product, I think is really fascinating. And that's actually sort of what my book is about escape.
You know, is that these people are going onto these shows, looking for some kind of like transcendent confrontation with the jungle, and they're also, you know, doing the ridiculous obstacle course, and they're in a hamster wheel, you know, running down the beach. So is it real or is it scripted? Oh, it's real. I mean, it's very real. And of course, you know, again, like the book talks about pretty certain and the way is sort of a, they nudge you with a certain direction.
I mean, what I think is really interesting about reality producers is that they are taking
people's real lives and turning them into a three-act story. You know, I got a powerful three-act
story, a good three-act story. Like it has to be good, or these shows wouldn't be on the air. It has to be fulfilling, or like it wouldn't be renewed season after a season. So like, that's kind of amazing. You know, like, you're in this chaotic environment, the jungle, or I guess a real house for a real house person. And, you know, all this chaos is happening around you. And like, there are these people whose job it is to like distill that into like a structure
story art. That's kind of amazing. Wow. So they are really, I mean, they have to be story tellers to be able to create a story. What do you think goes into having, or at least with your experience. I know you're a working experience, your experience on reality TV and talking to other people,
“what makes an amazing producer. Yeah. I think it is that sense of what is a good scene.”
I mean, I mean, of course, when I was on reality TV, I interacted with a lot of producers, but you know, there it's sort of, you know, you're sitting across from them in an interview. You're not like getting into their heads. They're asking, they're getting into your head. But when I was writing this book, I interviewed a lot of producers, and they would talk about like knowing where a scene starts, or a scene ends. And that was kind of crazy
to me because I was thinking, this is my life. Like, I'm interacting with these people. I'm playing this game. But they're thinking of like, even just an interaction at the camp. It's like, here's the scene. Here's where the opening is. Here's the singer. You know? So they're really viewing it all in the terms of how can I sort of digest this and turn it into stories. It really is like people who are excellent storytellers and want to kind of craft
a neat story out of the chaos of real life. Talk about a job and never even thought. Like,
I want to be a producer of a reality TV show. But that is fascinating. It sounds like they are really curating things more than what we think. We think it's like just things just happenstance. Like, it's just it's just reality. Like, we don't know what's going to happen. But they are really curating and thinking about what should happen. I'm fascinating with dating shows. I watched love is blind recently on Netflix. And I couldn't help think like, are these people really in it
for this? But then I also see them on like 10 other dating shows. And I wonder how much is it, how much of those are like chasing fame versus like the survivor people who really want to find themselves. Yeah, I do think you're right that there are a lot of people who go on some of the dating shows, especially, you know, and some competition reality shows looking for the next show, being very conscious of how can I make a big enough performance on this show to justify being on
also villains or the traders. You know, and certainly, I think that's happened in the last few
Years.
they were meaming. You know, they were doing little actions that were meant to be gift out and spread on X in our Facebook. And I was just, you know, when I first went on, I was not aware of that at all. You know, the cliche that you sort of forget about the cameras was very true for me. But I feel like the contestants now are very aware of the cameras and there are many of them or some of them anyway are really performing. It reminds me of thinking back to like the first reality show that I
“remember. I think had to been like the real world with MTV. Yeah. What was like the first reality show”
that you watched that even got you thinking about this could be something or maybe even something that you just stood out in your mind from before. Yeah. I mean, I certainly watched the real world, but of course, I, along with fully half of America, at the time, watched that first season of survivor and was just blown away by it. I was definitely part of those water cooler conversations back when there were water coolers and offices, back when people went into offices, you know, before,
but, you know, it was, I thought Richard Hatch was incredible. This, you know, amazing villain,
you know, I was rooting for him to win. And you know, the culture was outraged at him because he was, you know, voting out the nice people. But I actually was recruited to be on survivor. I was not, I did not apply some, um, I knew someone in casting who messages me on Facebook in 2008 and said, hey, do you want to be on survivor? Let's make it happen. I literally did not know the show was still on the air. You know, they cast in terms of archetypes and they certainly did that more at the
time. You know, they had the hot alpha male, which obviously I was. No, they had, you know, they, they cast their nerd character. You know, they cast their, you know, their beach beauty character. And they had cast their season and they had already had a nerd character where they decided he wasn't nerdy enough. And my friend said, oh, I know a real nerd. If you want a real true nerd,
“I've got the nerd for you. And that's why she emailed me. As though I though, like, from Yale to survivor.”
Oh, yeah. I mean, totally. That was all, you know, part of the storyline. Um, you know, I, I, I, I got my glasses were not a stick back then as they are now, but I still did have glasses, which really distinguished me. At least you still got hair, because you could be like, I had hair back then. Yeah. I know that feeling. So going back to survivor, because I remember the last time I think I remember survivor was when they're in the Philippines. Yeah. And great season,
love that season. I also just like the Philippines in general. But what is, so you go on to this show, how weird is it? Like, what's the feeling? Like, you're on, you're on a show. It's like life. There's cameras everywhere, but like things have to happen. Like, what's that experience? Like, yeah, that's a great question. I love games. And I also kind of like immersive experiences. You know, you, I remember, I, that's a really good question. You know, the first part of it is
very kind of structured. You know, you, you, you sit at this camp. They take you to the acclimate for a week while you do your pregame press. You're not allowed to talk. And then at some point,
they let you go. And, you know, they're like, okay, games on. And it's incredible this feeling of freedom.
Like, I could go anywhere. I could literally walk anywhere. I mean, the Brazilian Highlands. It was the Cerado. I mean, I mean, like the Brazilian, you know, outdoors. I could walk anywhere. I could do anything. I could talk to anyone. I could not talk to anyone. You know, who I decided to vote out is entirely based on my decisions. And who I decided to vote for at the end is also just like, I get to choose. I mean, just that that freedom within the context of a game
was mind-boggling to me. It was truly so exciting. You know, just like literally the sense of like total, you, you can do anything. And some of the cameras are going to follow you. But it's going to be on television. I find a lot of reality. I mean, especially like these shows, which I love these shows, it's like a study of human behavior. You know, it's like, what would humans do and reminds me of like Lord of the flies? Like, if you put these people on this island and, you know, there's no real
leadership in this. And then you have something gold at the end. Like, what's going to happen to humans? What do you think? Or what did you see at survivor? And then just in general with reality TV, do you find this is like really, are they're like anthropologists like studying us or maybe aliens?
I mean, they should be. I mean, I'm assuming the answer is yes, you know, yes, the aliens are
studying us. And probably watching reality TV's. You've got to be a really easy way to study us because, you know, the signals are out there, the TV signals. So they can just kind of, you know, beam it up. That's got to be a pretty straightforward. What's interesting is how each group does kind of create its own more, you know, every group sort of creates its own kind of dynamic of what they value. You know, the other thing that was interesting, I thought was the way that when
“when you have to vote someone out, the group would always kind of like put all of the blame”
for the chaos around them on that one person. You know, they would always say like, oh, this person
Is playing too hard.
out and you get to feel good about yourself for a day. You know, like we got rid of the trouble maker. But then, of course, the game is what's forcing you to vote people out and lie and backstab.
“So suddenly you have to do it again. You're like, and it was the sense of we could like maintain”
our own sense of like moral integrity by putting all of our sins. You know, it was like literally like that sort of idea of a sacrificial goat, you know, where like, you know, you're like putting all the sins on this one person and like voting them out and like getting to like be feel good about yourself again. I imagine when something becomes your life, it could be devastating when it's taken away. What was the feeling when you got voted off? Yeah. I mean, well, I was really tired and hungry.
So immediately I was like, oh, it's a sleeping eat. That's nice. Yeah, it is devastating. You're right. And, you know, you really are so immersed in this game and you're so focused on this prize, you know, for weeks, um, you know, and there's a long weeks because like literally you've got nothing to do to distract yourself. So they're very long weeks. So you're right. Like you are, there's like a real trauma that happens when you are voted out. You know, you kind of set your dreams
in your goals on this like one object and then it's taken for you. And I have to also say, it's also really hard to vote somebody else out because you know that they, and in many ways, I found that actually harder than voting myself out or they're myself getting voted out because you know what their dreams are. You know, someone's out there, you know, competing to like, give their money to their dad who's worked his whole life or like they're going to like set up
their kids with a college education fund. And, you know, you're like, I'm voting you out, taking all your dreams from you, you know, setting your family back to where they started from, you know, that that's really hard. And like lying to someone to do that, you know, like betraying people, you know, most of us don't betray people in our day to day lives. And it's actually not a good feeling. I can't have a left because I'm thinking like if I was to go on a show,
I just need to make up and outrageous story, whether it's true or not, maybe not true. So people will then feel bad to not, maybe that's part of the strategy. Obviously, you were a fan favorite, you know, tens of millions and millions of people voted you to go back on the survivor. Did you hesitate like, why do I want to do this again? Or what was your thought like, maybe this it,
“maybe this will have a positive impact on my life? Yeah, I did. I mean, honestly, I did not initially”
you want to do it again because I, you know, for that reason that it was so emotionally challenging to
betray people, lie to people, I was really affected by it my first time. And I did not plan to do it again.
The producers called me and said, basically, this is your last chance. Like, if you're going to go again, this is the one, this is your opportunity. And passing up something like that felt, you know, felt reckless. Like, you know, this is a dream that so many thousands of people have, you know, thousands and thousands of people apply and it's being gifted to me. So, you know, why not go for that adventure one more time? And the fact that it was a fan vote made it cool,
you know, I kind of thought like, okay, like that's cool to be voted in by the fan. So if that happens, that you get chosen, like, that would be a cool thing to write on my resume. You know, maybe 15 years from now someone will be, you know, calling me a fan favorite. I mean, here we are. That was, literally, yeah,
that was 15 years ago, right? Like you said, that's, or 16 years ago? Well, like, first, you know,
“it was probably, that one was probably like 10 year, 10 or 11 years ago, 2015, I think.”
But, and then you wrote the book. So you obviously, the great thing I love about your story, too, is not only were you, like, bachelor of the year. That's still fascinated by that. Yeah. But you're also you leveraged it because I think what happens a lot of times from what I've seen, just following media for many years and, uh, you know, studying media stuff is a lot of times these people don't leverage it there on after. Maybe they just want to try and be an actor, but we know most people
will not continue to be an actor. You have really capitalized and leverage it to write multiple books, best selling books, highly awarded. You've done many other things. How did you leverage it? In case someone here is going on to a show tomorrow and they need to know what happens
afterwards. Yeah. I mean, it treats me totally. I always wanted to be a writer first and in many ways,
you know, my fear going on reality television the first time was that I would become reduced to being the reality TV guy and, like, that would become the whole part of my identity, which is absolutely has. You know, so I, my choice to write a book about reality television and have that be sort of my debut novel was, I think, strategic. You know, and I think that maybe gets to your question. Initially, I was going to write a book of short stories to kind of prove my literary bonafides.
But an agent said to me that that was a really stupid choice. That, you know, I should really more think, you know, what you should write the book about the reality TV show first, because like that's
What your audience cares about.
of your opportunity to sort of bridge your existing audience into maybe a more literary audience. You know, and then kind of hopefully take some of those people with you. You know, hopefully when my next book comes out, and it's not about reality television, you know, I've established that I can write a good book, and hopefully some of the people who were interested in my thoughts
“about reality TV will come with me to over there as well. But, you know, I think a lot of it is just”
always observing, you know, and at least certainly for a writer, you know, it's always just kind of like
paying attention to the unique world that only you have access to. And for me, that was, that was this reality TV world, for my time as a contestant, for my time working for the TV networks. I worked for nonfiction producers trade group. So I've done a lot. I've seen every aspect of this world. And I think for anyone kind of looking to find what their next step is, I think, you know, it would be just to like observe the thing that only you know about. Hey, I just, I just launched a
book myself like a month and a half ago. And I have to say hats off to anyone who has written a book. It was like years and years. I thought I was going to come out in like a month after I started writing. But like two and a half years later, I finally came out. So people don't understand how not only how hard the process or how long it takes. But the process, I wanted to quit and cancel.
“But the publisher's like, you signed an agreement. You have to continue writing this book. Like,”
you can't stop. So hats off to you. I get just how challenging it is in your book, or maybe even that not in the book, was there a really wild story after interviewing these people that you heard that's really stuck out? From, it's interesting from interviews. I mean, one story I heard, you know, that does sort of make its way in the book. And it's not a spoiler, but it's sort of, it just kind of, because it's sort of an aside, as someone mentions in the book, is from a,
a wilderness show, not, not survivor, that where the producer wanted to film two of their survivalists hunting a beaver, because the, it's caster sack has like vanilla flavoring. So they thought that would be kind of a cool twist on the survivalist genre. But they couldn't find a live beaver to hunt anywhere. So like a PA went and brought a frozen beaver that they then put into a stream so that you couldn't tell that it was frozen. And you know, and then shot
from a distance, the hunter is kind of like, make believe hunting this frozen beaver in the stream.
“That really stuck with me. I sort of a very strange, facet of this reality world. And I think”
captures, you know, some of these shows are a little staged. You know, it's not all 100% as you maybe as it may be displayed on television. It reminds me of these real estate shows. And I wonder if
they're really like selling the real estate. So I'm really buying the real, right? I always wonder
like, is this really, is it like potential commission? I mean, I don't know, are they really, is this real? I can't, I can't tell if some things are real or not real. So I'm glad you said this. So now if I see a beaver on show, specifically, yeah, well, and there was a big lawsuit where a survivalist alleged that their producer, like brought in like a rattlesnake for them to encounter, you know, like basically the, like, you know, there's a tense scene in the show, a different show,
where there was, you know, they, they come on a rattlesnake and like, what do they do? But like, they brought the rattlesnake in a box, you know, and then presumably like shot the scene and then like, you know, ship the rattlesnake off, I'll think him to go, to go better than an anaconda, I think. I guess that's right. I think, although I don't know, I'm not sure, you know, he's an anaconda, when you were there. I did see an anaconda. That's crazy that you asked that. I did. There was,
I mean, from a long, long distance, I was, there was a time where I saw, basically, they, I think they captured or they released, you know, again, like, they, they filmed like beaveral footage to include in the show, beaveral is sort of the little, like, nature shots that the survivor will have. And they did, in fact, shoot when I, I actually happened to like, witness from a distance, it, it being, um, wrangled, I guess. I would not want to come in contact with that. I was far away.
There's a guy who just a documentary about living in the Amazon. I forget his name. And the stuff that he, I've watched on his YouTube channel around the things that he asked,
he likes lived there for 20 years, trying to help. I'm like, I would never want to put myself.
Was there a scary moment besides the anaconda from miles away? Was there a scary experience that you had? Yeah, there was, um, it was actually, it was very, it was also snake-based. A lot of the scary experiences were, were snake-related. Um, but there was one time when I was, you know, one of the things I had to do was go to exile island, basically, where I was all by myself on this sort of remote sand dude. You know, there was a producer, but he was far away. I couldn't even
really see him most of the time. And it truly felt like I was alone. And at some point, the producer
Came down to inform me that one of the most dangerous snakes in the world, wo...
seen one nearby, um, and I should stay by close by the fire and because this snake would probably not come by the fire. And I said, you know, maybe, maybe we move me. Maybe we met a fact or do fly this person away so that he's not in the terrain of the most dangerous snake in the world. They're like, no, you're probably five. You're probably going to be five. Just stay away from any snake, so I'm like, okay, that's great. So if I make it through the night, I'll be all right. One time
our son bought a snake and tried to like have a snake and like we wouldn't find this snake, but I saw like this big box of the cage of a snake thing. I'm like, so we made him return the snake the next day. I'm like, wow, he went and like went rogue and bought a snake and like, thought we would know they went, like, how would you not know we're going to find this snake. So next day, he had to return this snake. But I was bit by a friend snake who had, he had a snake
as a pet when I was younger. And I had to watch him pythons. I had to watch him feed the snakes. And it was very disturbing, watching him as it would grow and like the feeding, then it would had to be alive. It was like frozen. Then it was alive. And then it bit me. And now I was like, I don't want to come in contact with snakes. I, oh, I'm really wondering too about this reality, like the ones you did. How do you eat? Like, do you have, do they teach you survivor skills before
you go like, like, what if you don't eat, then what happened? I mean, I lost 35 pounds my first season.
“So that's what happens. You know, they sort of provide, I mean, on my first season, we got”
sort of a substance level of rice and beans. But my group, my tribe, did not even get like, you know, much of that. So we were literally having like a spoonful of rice a day. And it was, really tough on my body, which is one of the reasons I didn't want to go back. But, you know, you do get a survivor school, both the day, but you know, you get one one day where they kind of show you what the various, you know, plants are that are available, you know, that kind of thing,
you know, usually now that it's always on an island, there's typically coconuts, there's typically
shellfish. So there's, there's like food that, like you can exist on, but not, you know, not fill your belly. Well, I got to say, I stopped working out a couple of years ago on a regular basis and I have also yet to get my muscle back. So I could, 42 years old. I don't know what this is hard. It's hard, Steve. But, you know, yeah, it's hard. I've got frail joints, you know, the mold is going to injured. It's tough.
“Oh my god. Steven, like, I'm so afraid. That's why I don't do anything because I'm like,”
if I get injured, I'm going to be so upset. Like, I don't want to go bungee jump. It's not we worth the risk. In my, that's why I'm not on reality TV, unless it's like a chest playing reality TV or something, but I'm just too afraid. I don't think I can handle it. But I love a scape exclamation mark. You got to say that you have two versions of the book behind you because I know it's out in different countries. Tell me about that. Yeah, about the book or about it being out in different
countries, all both. Okay. So the book is about a has been mid 40s reality TV contestant who goes back on a jungle reality show kind of looking to reclaim his past glory. You know,
he was the winner. He was like the alpha guy has first season out and now he's kind of stuck in
his num real life and really wants to recapture that. And while they're he faces off against a reality TV producer, you know, one of these expert storytellers who's whole job is to turn real life into, you know, a neat, you know, a neat little bow. And, you know, there's this real struggle for who gets to control the story. So I do try to capture like all the texture of what reality TV is real like, really like, you know, hopefully, you know, for fans of the genre showing
“them new aspects of it. But I think that hopefully this relates or, you know, is moving to people”
who are even not reality TV fans because I think it deals with the subject that everyone is going through right now in our social media dominated age where we are all kind of trying to project this image of ourselves. We are all trying to control our own story and this question of like what happens when you lose control of your own story. I think is really, you know, feels like
a great deer talk to all of us. What's the, what is it like when you, because I've always
wanted to write a fiction book, but about non-fiction experiences I've had or other people, what is that like when you're writing a fiction book? It's almost like a fiction non-fiction. Yeah, I mean, this is fiction. I will say that this is not based on survivor. You know, I really did interview producers and contestants from like dozens of other shows. But I think probably most fiction books have like a healthy, a healthy amount of like non-fiction, you know, animating them,
you know, it's the real texture of your life. It's like the thoughts you've had, the experiences you've had, they like kind of like bring, you know, whatever fictional plot to life. So I feel like it's probably true of all fiction. Well, Steven Fishback, but it's spelled BACH, Steven Likeish Pozer, like fishbock, but it's fishback.com where else can they get the book?
Anywhere, any online retailer, you know, go into your local bookstore, it sho...
You know, if it's not asked for it, because then maybe they'll order more copies. That'd be great.
Uh, but yeah, hopefully it's everywhere. My last question, you went into the bookstore and you saw your book. What came over you? That was awesome. I mean, it was truly, it was cool because I
too, I was with my daughter and that was really awesome for her, like, you know, we, we of course,
like read a lot, uh, you know, as, as, you know, I read to her all the time. So for her to see that like
“I wrote a book and it was on the shelf in the bookstore where she buys her books, I think was kind”
of magical for both of us. Every time you go through a bookstore because I do this, do you go
in there and look for your book and take a picture? Oh, yeah, of course. I mean, it's only been out for three weeks. It's still very new to me. So I, I want a hundred percent, I'm looking for my book.
“And, um, yeah, it's, it's been awesome. I do the same thing. Every book, I think my wife,”
because my wife and I wrote the book together, but she's not like, she wasn't that excited to write it. So for me, that, every time we walk to a bookstore and I do the same thing, I'm like, hey, do you have this book and they're like, you know, yes or no, I'm like, you don't have the book?
“I think you should order the book. Yeah. Like, there's demand. Exactly. I'm like, you're”
really passionate about this book. Like, yeah, I'm like, I'm very passionate about this book. I think you should order it. But, um, I love that escape with an exclamation mark, a non-fiction book, with amazingly possibly non-fiction, ish added in there. I love that, uh, Steven, this has been great. You're, you're one of the, the probably one of the most fun guests I've had. And it's something, I can't stop thinking about reality TV. It's weird. And I've been so excited to have you on.
So, they, what a great compliment. Thank you. This has been the super fun interview. Thank you for having me. If you liked the show, please take a moment to rate, review, and subscribe. It really does help the show to grow. Thank you for listening.
