An exposé of the plastic industry

First hand reporting has never mattered more.

And Pierre Plus supporters power that work. They make it possible for our journalists to go or news is happening. And supporters get perks for Imperial podcasts, things like bonus episodes, archive, access, and more. You can sign up at plus.npr.org. This is Fresh Air, I'm Tonya Mosley.

Think about everything you've touched today. Your toothbrush, your coffee cup, the phone in your hand, the shoes on your feet. Chances are, almost all of it is made of plastic or contains some element of it. Plastic was first used to insulate radar cables during World War II, and scientists soon found other uses for it.

And after the war, it moved into our kitchens and our cars, our clothing, and our medicine. By the 1950s, companies were racing to make plastic disposable and a throwaway culture was born. My guest today is Beth Gartner, a journalist and author of the new book Plastic Inc.

“The secret history and shocking future of big oils biggest bet.”

In it, she argues that while millions of us have been trying to use less plastic, the fossil fuel industry has been making more. Plastic, she says, is big oils plan B, the less we use, the more they make. Beth Gartner, welcome to Fresh Air. Thank you so much.

That's a pleasure to be here. So Beth, you, like so many of us, were doing all the things you thought were right. You were separating your plastic for recycling and carrying these canvas bags and trying to use less. When did you realize none of it was going to make a dent in what these companies were

doing? Well, it was about seven or eight years ago, and I still remember the morning that I saw this headline, it was an article in the Guardian about the plastic and petrochemical industry. That particular story was specific to plastic producers in the United States. And it said that because of fracking, which was such an interesting connection to me,

some of these huge companies, like Exxon Mobile and Shell, were ramping up to actually

“make 40% I think it was more plastic in the US in the coming handful of years.”

And I mean, it just felt like kind of a gut punch because, like you said, I've always

been the person kind of carrying my bags to the store, I feel bad if I forget to bring them, I'm toting around my metal water bottle, I have it sitting right here. And I mean, I'm just one individual, right? But there's so many people like me who just sort of feel on some level, like there's something wrong, like we get that there's something really unsustainable about our relationship

with plastic and its extreme proliferation in the world around us, the idea that while we are sort of as individuals trying to reduce our own use of plastic, that this huge global extremely wealthy and powerful industry was actually pouring billions of dollars into their plans to make more, it just kind of took my breath away. Can you talk a little bit about why?

“And I think on the surface, there might be an obvious why, because of profit perhaps.”

But I mean, plastic production carries its own enormous environmental and health costs. We've been talking about that for decades now. You write about studies that show the health implications of this and as well as environmental. So why haven't these companies pivoted to clean renewables instead of doubling down on plastic? I think there's kind of two layers to that.

So one is that is what they have always done.

If you look back at the history of the plastic and petrochemical industry, which really in its modern form goes back to essentially World War II and the post-war years, the line just goes relentlessly up back in 1950, the plastic industry globally produced about 2 million metric tons annually of plastic today were over 500 million tons annually. So that tells you sort of the trajectory that we've been on, right?

But more plastic equals more money. It's not an expensive commodity, so it needs to be a volume commodity if they're going to profit from it. In the past 20 years, the output has doubled, looking forward. The plan is to double and eventually triple in the years to come.

So that's the first sort of level of the answer. But the second level is almost even more disturbing, which is that the fossil fuel industry,

are petrochemical focused.

“This industry can see that their business model is under threat.”

And that is not only from sort of climate action and climate policy, you know, laws that might push people onto clean energy in away from fossil fuels, but now they're actually being really economically undercut. Only in the past few years have solar and wind power actually become cheaper than oil and gas and, you know, even coal, which used to be the sort of dirty but cheap standby for energy, electric vehicles and batteries.

We have alternatives now and they're cheaper, and on top of that, we're all getting a sort

of object lesson right now every day in the headlines. If you look at what's happening

in the Persian Gulf, the conflict with Iran, the straight-of-war moves, it's, you know, very dangerous to be as dependent on fossil fuels as we are. So this is an industry that's under threat. Plastic is another revenue stream when you drill for oil and gas, it's another source of money.

Okay, so you interviewed a range of people for this book. You interviewed scientists and lawyers, lawmakers, you had some industry insiders who also talked to you. What happened when you tried to talk to the companies themselves? And I should state, there are a handful of companies that you found making the majority of the plastic production that we use in consume in the world. Yeah, so Exxon Mobile is said to be the biggest producer of single

use plastics. It's a little complicated because there's all these sort of ingredients that you combine in a multitude of steps. There's, you know, other huge oil companies like Saudi Ramco, the Saudi largely government-owned oil company, Sino-Pec in China, Shell, oil has a subsidiary called Shell Chemicals. And then there are also free-standing companies that are chemical companies like a Dow, a DuPont, an EOS as a big one. But they're often very deeply interconnected

with fossil fuel companies because they get their, that's where they get their raw materials and their ingredients. So most of them didn't want to talk to me. Some of them did. But the biggest glimpse I got was when I went to an industry conference and Dubai a couple of years ago, the Gulf Petrochemical Association invited me to come to their conference. And that was not only sort of regional oil and chemical companies, but also some of the big

multinationals. And when you were there, that was really an interesting section in your

“book. They were all speaking, I think, what you termed it, green language, words like sustainability”

and innovation. But you write at one point the masks slipped. What were they actually saying when they dropped sort of this corporate speak? Right. So there was a panel in these where some chemical executives talking about the global plastic's pollution treaty negotiations that have been going on for the past few years now, where they have really been coming out in force with a very heavy presence of lobbyists.

And one of these executives from one of the Gulf-based companies started talking about how people get very emotional when they talk about plastics. And some of the activists at the treaty negotiations are very negative and they're twisting recycling into a negative. And he basically called out to the audience and said, you know, we need your help. This is an audience of industry representatives. We need your help. We need legal assistance. We need policy research papers.

We need scientific research papers to make our case at these negotiations. And the two big

“areas of concern that I think we're getting his back up a little bit were that there's been”

a push that these negotiations to try to create some kind of a limit on plastic production. The industry has really pushed back hard that hits it at the heart of where it's profits come from.

And they have always preferred to frame plastic as sort of a waste management problem. Like

as long as it ends up in the trash or a landfill rather than the ocean, you know, then it's okay. And the other area where he, you know, clearly felt very threatened is around the question of chemicals in plastic that may be harming our health. That's another big area of concern for the industry. So the waste management framing is something that I think we all have believed for a

in the plastic issue. These companies, they didn't talk to you directly about many of the things

“that you assert in this book, but they have said plenty in other places. And one of their central”

arguments in addition to what you're saying here is that they make more plastic because we want

more plastic basically global demand drives production. Is it true that we also play a part in this

that we're driving up the demand for it? I mean, it's so interesting, right? And that is what they say, you know, when you look at the production numbers, if the companies are asked about them, there's a lot of talk about, you know, consumers are demanding this, whether it's sort of, you know, consumers in wealthy countries are kind of demanding convenience. We want to take out containers and all of that. Or a lot of times now, they talk about sort of global south countries

that demand is growing there as a middle class is arising in countries like India and Indonesia and, you know, buying more appliances and things like that. I mean, that's not wrong. There is some truth in it, but one thing that I thought was so interesting when I started to understand how

“some of these markets work is that plastic has this really unique property, I think, which is that”

it has the ability to reverse the normal relationship between supply and demand. So, you know, if you go to the grocery store and you are buying, you know, some fruit, you want to buy some apples and they're wrapped in plastic, you didn't demand plastic, you economically demanded apples, right? So, it just goes to the point that a lot of times we don't actually have a choice and plastic is so cheap, it becomes economical for businesses to use it and it makes sense for a restaurant to

give you a plastic fork when you're sitting down and eating in because they're making a calculation versus what it might cost them to pay someone to clear the table and have a dishwasher in the back room, maybe they don't have space for it in the kitchen. So, the low price of plastic is sort of

pushing it into the world and we as individuals don't always have a choice about that and the

reason it is so cheap in large part is because it doesn't incorporate the the true costs of dealing with it after the fact. So, we as actually taxpayers are soldering the burden of managing all that plastic waste and that is why we can't escape it in our lives and we don't really necessarily have a choice about that. I want to talk a little bit with you about the health ramifications. We understand that plastic is all around us but can you give us a brief sense of just the sheer

“amount of exposure we have to plastic and plastic particles in our day-to-day lives?”

Sure, I mean for one thing we're breathing it in. I mean there was actually one study

that a scientist in, I believe Colorado did that found that five billion bottles worth of

microplastics are falling on the United States every year in just the wind and the rain. So, it's sort of all around us. We're breathing it in. We're eating it and drinking it. You know, it's not just that the water bottle that's holding your water or the takeout container that might have held your food is shedding chemicals and microplastics. But even if you sort of go back a step in the dairy facility, the milk is being piped through plastic tubing to get even to the

bottles. Probably the cow has some microplastics in their milk. Microplastics are in the soil so they enter fruits and vegetables and things that are grown when you think about the pervasiveness of plastic in our lives and in our world it's just sort of being reflected on a microscopic level. You can't get away from this stuff. One note that you write about that tripped me out was the study that analyzed 52 human brain samples and every single one contained microplastics. Yeah, so the

research on the chemicals in plastic and how they affect us goes back quite a few decades now. But what's much newer is studies looking at these tiny plastic particles called microplastics and they have been found absolutely everywhere out in the world and inside our bodies. One of the most disturbing studies was done by a team at the University of New Mexico

died that they studied. But they found that the levels of microplastics were higher in the

brains of people who had dementia when they passed away than people who did not. And they did to study in 2024 and they found that the people who had died that year had levels of microplastics in their brains that were something like 50% higher than people who had died just eight years earlier and been studied. And I just want to get clarity though. Is this a correlation causation situation here? Yes, so the science is in its very early stages around microplastics

and all that scientists can really say now is that there is a correlation. One thing that's very tricky about studying the impact of microplastics and the chemicals in plastic as well is that there is no control group because all of us are exposed to this stuff all the time. So there is a lot of work still to be done but some of the early indications are very worrying. We don't know about causation yet but that is a pretty scary place to start.

You know in the 2000s we all learned or most of us learned for the first time about BPAs

and that was a big deal. We started to learn about some of the harms of that. But one of the most disturbing things you write about BPA is that it doesn't seem to have a threshold below which it doesn't cause any effects. Yes, one expert told you I don't think there's really a safe

“level of this. If that's true, what does that mean? Well I think one thing it means is that we”

really need our governments to do a better job of testing and keeping these some of these chemicals out of the products that we use every day and the industry needs to start looking at making

some safer alternatives. One thing that really shocked me in reading this is that I learned

that in the United States you don't actually have to prove that a chemical is safe before you can put it on the market. If you are a pharmaceutical maker or a pesticide maker, you know you have to go through a whole safety process. There's a lot of problems with this now that we're all realizing around pesticides, some of them are, you know, kind of dangerous that are getting onto the market. But there is a process there with chemicals used in plastic, in packaging,

in, you know, toys. This is all governed by a incredibly flawed 1976 law called the Toxic

“Substances Control Act. And I think the most shocking thing about it is that it took an approach”

of innocent until proven guilty, meaning if you were a company and you want to start using a chemical in packaging and product to sell on the market, you do not have to demonstrate that it's safe. The government, the EPA environmental protection agency, has to demonstrate that it's dangerous. I have to stop you right here to say, I believe most Americans believe if it is available to us that it has already gone through the rigor of being tested and safe.

You know, I wish there was a poll on this because I have thought that so many times too. I would absolutely bet money that if you asked most Americans, does a chemical have to be proven safe before it can be put on the market in a plastic bottle or a container that baby food is going to go in or anything else that people would absolutely think that that that is the case. But it is not. It goes back to 1976, you know, that was the era of environmental law making,

the Clean Air Act and the Clean Water Act were passed right around the same time. Those are really, really strong laws with like lots and lots of accountability built into them. The Toxic Substances Control Act was understood from the very beginning to just have been designed to fail. Not only does it have this innocent until proven guilty approach, but 60,000 chemicals were grandfathered in at the very beginning just because they were already on the market that they could

“continue to be sold. And over 40 years, only I think it's five chemicals were restricted on a”

national basis in any way. There's tens of thousands of them out there. So, you know, that tells you how, how weak and ineffective this law is. It was tightened up a little bit in 2016, but you know, we have not made a lot of progress since then. Let's take a short break. Our guest today is journalist and author, Beth Gardner. We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tanya Mosley

First hand reporting has never mattered more. And Pierre Plus supporters power that work,

they make it possible for our journalists to go where news is happening. And supporters get perks for impaired podcasts, things like bonus episodes, archive access, and more. You can sign up at plus.npr.org. I want to ask you about the Gulf Coast of Texas and Louisiana, which you write quite extensively about in the book. Those areas are basically the heart of American plastic and petrochemical production. You actually went to a neighborhood called Manchester.

Yeah. It's in the Houston area right in the middle of what you're talking about. What does

“that place in particular tell us about the cost of this industry?”

Yeah, Manchester is a predominantly Latino very working class neighborhood in Houston. I sat in

a little park there called Hartman Park, which has like, you know, a baseball diamond and a couple of tennis courts and little playground. And you look around you and you just see these enormous industrial facilities, refineries and petrochemical plants all around. There was an activist who took me for a drive out of Manchester through what's called the Houston Ship Channel. It's about 50 miles long, and it is lined with oil refineries and petrochemical plants. Petrochemical

plants, I learned to recognize them. It's like they have this almost like spaghetti tango of pipes that surround them and kind of rise up from them. So there's sort of ongoing constant emissions. And then there are, they call them events, fires and explosions. There was a big oil refinery explosion in Port Arthur, Texas very recently, very often for people who live nearby. This will

“result in shelter in place orders. So you have to kind of stay in your house and turn off the AC”

and put a, you know, towel under the door or tape up the windows and try to keep whatever chemicals are out there from coming in. And this is a daily reality of life for people who live in that area. And I think one of the things that makes this pretty astounding is there's no zoning between industrial and residential. It's really the only major city where that is true. And there's this phrase that you write about that activist use sacrifice zone. What does that mean and how does

Manchester fit into that, into that definition? Yeah, I heard that, I heard that phrase in particular from a guy named Robert Taylor who I met in Louisiana in a stretch along the Mississippi River. It is another major hub of petrochemical production. He lives near a plant that makes neoprene artificial rubber. And one of the chemicals that's emitted when you do that is called chloroprene. It's very dangerous. A lot of times these plants get talked about in relation to jobs.

Right, we need this plant because, you know, we need the tax revenue. We need the the employment. And Robert Taylor said to me, my neighborhood is like a sacrifice zone. We are being sacrificed for the sake of somebody else to have 200 jobs. The the neighborhood, he told me the sort of mile or so radius around this particular plant that he lives near is more than 90% black. And he said, you know, none of us are very few of us getting jobs in the plant. We're paying with our lives

for, you know, 200 people who live somewhere else. They drive home at night to have a job in this plant. There have been lots of efforts over the years to properly zone this area. What type of resistance have, have activists come up against? Well, it's interesting in this area of Louisiana on the lower Mississippi River. The activists refer to it as cancer alley, the industry, and a lot of the local politicians who have welcomed the industry, you know, really dispute

that characterization. And they say that the numbers are unfair. The science is not clear.

“But I think it is well known that some of these chemicals that people are breathing are”

very well established to be carcinogenic. Pretty typically it ends up being an economic argument. And I think that, you know, you really have to take a step back and understand how politically

powerful this industry is in some of those states. And I heard tremendous amounts of criticism

from the activists of the Texas and Louisiana state regulators that they say are, you know,

time was the attorney for Harris County, where Houston is located. And he said to me, you know,

“in in most in most areas of life, we you run a stop sign and you you get a ticket, right? But”

there's no stop signs and there's no tickets for this industry. Of course, the industry and the agencies very much dispute that, but you know, a lot of people in the ground do see it that way. Is it a coincidence that the communities that bear the greatest burden of this industry are almost universally communities of color and low-income communities? Yeah, no, I don't think it is a coincidence. You won't be surprised to hear that. I mean those

tend to be communities that are less politically powerful. They are often poor. And it's easier

to cite a facility when you're you're building a new petrochemical plant or an oil refinery or any really, you know, highly polluting industrial facility. There's just less political

“resistance if you want to put it in a predominantly black or Latino poor neighborhood versus, you know,”

trying to put it in a well-off white suburb. You can imagine the holiday balloon that would create. Let's take a short break. If you're just joining us, my guest is Beth Gartner, journalist and author of the new book, Plastic Ink, the secret history and shocking future of big oil's biggest bet. We'll be right back after a break. This is fresh air. Iran, Lebanon, Israel, Gaza,

with conflict unfolding in so many places. First hand reporting has never mattered more.

And Pierre Plus supporters power that work. They make it possible for our journalists to go or news is happening. And supporters get perks for impaired podcasts, things like bonus episodes, archive access, and more. You can sign up at plus.npr.org. I want to talk a little bit about the global picture for a moment because you write about that as well in this book, a fascinating detail is what actually happened when China stopped accepting

the world's plastic waste back in 2018. That was a big media splash, a big story back then. You spoke with a woman who climbs a mountain of plastic every day. And she's noted that it's plastic with American and European and Korean labels on it. And she earns about two to four

“dollars for seven hours of work. And what did she say to you?”

Yeah, I actually climbed that mountain myself. And it's in the western part of the Indonesian island of Java, just outside Jakarta. China said in 2018, we've had enough of this. We don't want the trash from other countries anymore. And it caused a huge crisis in waste management. So things started piling up, and developed countries started to look for other places to send it. And one of the, the first destinations was Southeast Asia. So I actually went to Indonesia

to try to get a look at what's happened there. I climbed up that mountain with a group of people who took me there. You know, it was 20, 30, 40 feet high, maybe. Many, many football fields wide. And when I climbed up it, you know, I walked around and I saw brands that I recognized. I saw one of those people who loves Trader Joe's. And I started, they're no worse than any other company. But I started seeing Trader Joe's packaging, just all kinds of old sandals and

bottles and bags and and plastics. And I met a met a woman and her husband who climbed up there every day. She sold bananas in the morning. And then when she finished that, she went up this this mountain. And she said the plastic would be like hot to the touch. It was hot under her feet because it was just baking out there in the sun. All kinds of Western brands that, you know, I recognized and you would too. That with everything that you're saying at every turn,

somehow the messages, it's our responsibility to fix it. It's our individual and collective responsibility to fix it through our behaviors. You know, and what I, what I hear so much from people like friends or acquaintances that I talk to who are not, you know, connected anyway with like environmental issues is a sense of guilt. Like people tell me they feel guilty when they, you know, but another plastic water bottle because I was thirsty when I was out for a walk or

whatever. I hear so much of that and in a way that was really what drove me to go. So deep in this book, because that serves the industry, right? And it really distracts us from a much bigger

picture. One of the things that was so powerful for me was when I learned about this

it sounds so benevolent and anti-literally campaign. Keep America Beautiful started in the 1950s

“after Vermont banned throwaway cans for beer that it's in last, but that law prompted the formation,”

Coke and Pepsi, a Philip Morris tobacco, the American can company, where some of the very early members and supporters of this organization. No one really thought of Keep America Beautiful as being an industry organization, but in fact it was they ran these littering campaigns. One of the advertising taglines said Keeping America Beautiful is your job. So, I mean, this was just there's so many layers to that, right? First of all, in this era when disposable packaging was becoming

more and more widespread. These companies were pushing it into the market, but nonetheless, the industry was telling us that this is a matter of personal responsibility. It's up to us as individuals. And what they were doing there was not only shifting the framing of the plastic

problem from sort of corporate accountability to a personal responsibility, which is always such a

resonant message for Americans, but they were actually also reframing what the problem was. The problem in this telling of like stop littering was not that there's too much plastic being produced to prom is just that it's ending up in the wrong place. And if we stop littering if these bad litter bugs, they coin to that term, stop throwing trash out their car windows, and they put it in the trash can, then everything will be fine and we won't have a problem.

So, they've sort of not only shifted the responsibility from them onto us, but they've even changed the definition of really what the issue is to begin with. These companies have made very public commitments to cleaning up public waste. All of them have a green arm. We know them. We see them sometimes in commercials. We see literature about them. There's this alliance called the alliance to end

plastic waste. It promises over billion dollars to these efforts. Do these efforts

“offset any of the harm that you're talking about? I think a lot of these efforts are part”

of the industry's push to reframe our understanding of what the problem is. From their perspective,

it is a waste management problem. So, if there's plastic on the beach or there's plastic in the ocean, that is bad, they would say. But the answer to that is cleaning up the beach and then putting the trash in the right place, right? It's never a problem of too much plastic being produced. So, while these companies, fossil fuel and petrol chemical companies, are sponsoring beach cleanups or they're throwing a few dollars at a city in a Southeast Asian country that's struggling with

trash to help them clean up or make a better waste management system. At the same time, they are every year, year after year, after year, increasing the amount of plastic that they are producing. That that was trying to imagine how hard it would actually be to live a plastic free life. If we were to say, okay, we don't want to use any plastic in our daily life and I'm going to make an individual choice to do that. I mean, is that even possible? I mean, no, is the short answer.

Of course, you can't on an individual level. But I also kind of think it's the wrong question. Because one of the ways that the industry has liked to talk about this is when they are criticized about the excessive amount of plastic and people's concerns about that, one thing that they will often say in response is like, well, but there are all these

incredibly valuable uses, right? Like, plastic is they always talk about the green ones. So,

plastic is used in solar panels and wind turbines. Yes. And it's used to make cars lighter weight or even planes are partly made of different plastic composites. It's their lighter weight. So it's more fuel efficient. Like, yeah, those things are all true or there was a speech I watched by a

“one petrochemical executive who said, like, okay, fine, well, if you want to go back and live”

in a cave, then you can. They're framing it as this all or nothing, right? Like, okay, I still want to have single-use plastic, something or other. If I'm in the hospital and, you know, sanitary, medical, right? There's some pretty legitimate uses. But that doesn't also mean that there's not a tremendous amount of just totally unnecessary and ridiculous uses of plastic. So I think it's

pretty easily use a lot less. I think you've seen that in places where, you know, disposable plastic bags have a fee on them of, you know, 5, 10, 15 cents. The bag usage goes down by like 90 percent or something. So we could live with a lot less. And I don't think we'd miss a lot of it. Beth Gartner, thank you so much for your journalism in this book. Tanya, it's been such a pleasure

“talking to you. Beth Gartner's new book is Plastic Ink, the secret history and shocking future”

of big oil's biggest bet. In response to Gartner's book, Ross Eisenberg, President of America's Plastic Makers, a division of the American Chemistry Council, gave us this statement. He says, quote, "As the world's population grows and more people move into the middle class, the need for plastics

will continue to increase." He goes on to argue that Plastic is essential to modern life,

from food safety and clean water to wind turbines and solar panels. He says they support expanding recycling infrastructure and better product design, but their core message, as Eisenberg

“puts it, is that we need smart policies that preserve the benefits, plastics provide while pursuing”

practical, scalable solutions that reduce waste. Coming up, rock critic Ken Tucker, reviews cloud nine, the latest album from singer songwriter Megan Moroni, this is fresh air.

Iran, Lebanon, Israel, Gaza, with conflict unfolding in so many places. First hand reporting has never

mattered more. And beer plus supporters power that work, they make it possible for our journalists to go renews is happening. And supporters get perks for impaired podcasts, things like bonus episodes, archive access, and more. You can sign up at plus.npr.org. Megan Moroni, just might be the biggest star in country music right now. Her latest album, cloud nine, debuted at the top of both the Billboard Hot Country and Hot 100 charts,

solidifying her crossover appeal. Moroni who will begin her first stadium tour this summer,

is attracting a younger audience than the average country star. Cloud nine features guests like Casey Musgraves and Ed Sheeran on duets that rock critic Ken Tucker says, demonstrate Moroni's command of country hearty.

“And tonight, and if it hits the floor and won't be yours this time, is it better going out on down?”

Don't like it too much to come in the ground, round, round, and it's fun when it's happening to you. Hey country songwriter who can rhyme the phrase messin with your head again with taste of your own medicine is okay by me. Megan Moroni spins out tails of romantic revenge with a smooth fluency that contrasts with the raspy draw she uses to sing them. Her album cloud nine arrives as a new kind of music from big pink pink dress and cotton candy clouds on the cover pink vinyl

on the inside. She toys with Barbie world playfulness only to put the hammer down on guys who just respect her. It's a tale and notice how my guess when you couldn't care more, I couldn't care less. That's Moroni having the last laugh at a guy who treated her miserably and has now come crawling back, showcasing another killer chorus line. What doesn't kill you, calls you six months later. Moroni's pop crossover and sizable young female audience is all the more impressive when you hear

the way she leans into hard country ballads featuring pedal steel guitar and mandolin and consider her duet with Ed Sheeran. No one would peg Sheeran for a country tuner yet they trade versus on I only miss you like a latter day George and Tammy I thought today would be the day that I finally finished

I get a fold at her to sleep. I quit leaning on my wife wake up and feel just fine leaving my dreams.

“I only miss you when I'm breathing and my face is far from blue. I only miss you when it's raining”

but this down poor outside ain't nothing new. I only miss you when I'm lonely and these days I'm barely getting in bite. I only miss you when I'm drinking and baby I've been drinking

because I miss you all the time. Some have criticized the quality of Moroni's voice for its

husky limited range but I like those limitations. In the context of country music of someone who's a

“songwriter first and a vocalist second it comes across as authenticity. This can feel manufactured”

and I'm mindful of the fact that she told the Los Angeles Times she was a marketing major in college

and added if this doesn't work out I'd be just as happy working for a label on the marketing team.

Well good for her. It also suggests a hard-headed realism that can result in the Tark sentiments she and Casey Musgraves offer in bells and whistles a song in praise of difficult women.

“She don't get mad. She don't get me. She lets you be right when your own desk can be”

I know why you like her. She's sweet and she's simple. She's like me without the bells and the whistles her heart ain't on the highway. She's steady. She's sure she don't ask many questions. She thinks less is more she don't come with the spotlight. So wait around all day long and you don't have to worry you are under the sun. She probably mentioned that Moroni has a colleague galloping to prominence right behind her. Ella Langley, who's hit single chosen Texas and forthcoming

album Dandelion, promised even more examples of this fresh synthesis of hardcore country and pop. It'd be great if Megan Moroni was at the forefront of a whole new chapter in the genre. Can Tucker reviewed Megan Moroni's latest album, Cloud 9. Tomorrow on Fresh Share, award-winning actor John Lythgo, still going strong at age 80. He stars with Jeff Bridges in the Hulu series The Old Man. He'll play Dumbledore in a new HBO

Harry Potter series and he's starring on Broadway in the play Giant about a troubling side of children's author, Roald Dahl. I hope you can join us. To keep up with what's on the show and get highlights of our interviews follow us on Instagram at NPR Fresh Share. You can also watch some of our fresh air interviews on YouTube. Fresh air's executive producer is Sam Bricker. Our senior producer today is Teresa Madden.

and edited by Phyllis Myers and Marie Boldenado, Lauren Crenzel, Monique Nazareth,

“They a Challenger, Susan Yacundee, Anna Balman, and Nico Gonzalez-Wisler. Our digital media producer is Molly”

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