John Lithgow

First hand reporting has never mattered more.

NPR+ supporters power that work.

“They make it possible for our journalists to go or news is happening.”

And supporters get perks for NPR podcasts. Things like bonus episodes, archive, access, and more. You can sign up at plus.npr.org. This is Fresh Air. I'm Dave Davies.

Our guest today, John Lythko, is an actor you can probably recall from a half dozen roles off the top of your head. But the remarkable thing about his nearly 200 performances on stage, screen and television is that age 80, he's still going strong. You can see him playing an intelligence agent with Jeff Bridges in the FX action series

the old van. He plays the character Dumbledore, an a new HBO Harry Potter series that premieres in December.

“And he's starring now on Broadway, doing eight performance as a week in the play giant,”

about a troubling side to renowned children's author, Rul Dahl. Among Lythko's many career honors are Oscar nominations for his roles in the film The World According to Garp, in terms of Endearment, and six prime time Emmy Awards. For playing Winston Churchill in the Crown, a serial killer in the series Dexter, and an

alien visiting Earth in the sitcom Third Rock from the Sun.

He's been nominated for six Tony Awards and won twice, including once for his very first appearance on Broadway. Lythko has also written several children's books, a memoir titled Drama and Actors Education, and the dumpty trilogy, three books of satirical poems inspired by the current occupant of the White House.

Lythko's current play giant is set in 1983, when Rul Dahl ignited a controversy by writing an article with views that were widely seen as anti-Semitic.

“In the play, Dahl and his fiance are at home in discussion with the British and an American”

representative of Dahl's publishers who want him to say something to soften his message and diffuse the controversy. It soon emerges that the American rep is a practicing Jewish woman, and Dahl isn't backing down.

The play was first performed in London with Lythko starring as Rul Dahl.

He and the play won Lawrence Olivier Awards, the British Equivalent of the Tony. John Blethko, welcome to Fresh Air. "Thank you, Dave, I feel welcome." Your playing Dahl who is kind of, it's over-simplistic, let's call him a villain here, but you know, he's a very problematic character.

Did you feel empathy for him? How did you connect with him? "Oh, man, well, you look for ways you can empathize with every character, and if you're playing a scoundrel of any stripe, you just try to make it interesting. You're trying to figure out what made him that way.

And I mean, Dahl is a man so famous for one thing and not known at all for this other thing, it is kind of overbearing and sometimes cruel nature. I just found it fascinating, the different perceptions of him. And curiously, I have a good friend, the actress Maria Tucci, who is the widow of the editor Robert Gottlieb, who is the man who fired Rul Dahl from Alfred Knop, because he was just

so insufferable and cruel to everybody he worked with there. And I knew this about him before this even came up. This to me was fascinating. Anyone who is that successful, that much of an asset for a publisher to be fired because he was impossible to work with.

I just thought, well, there's something there." Why don't you just tell us a bit about the action in this play. It's you as Rul Dahl and your fiance and two representatives from your publishers to give us a sense of what the issue is and what happens. Yes, it's said in 1983, but it's about the events of 1982, when Israel was in deep conflict

with Lebanon, because they were trying to purge the PLO from Beirut. And they invaded Beirut brutally and Dahl wrote a book review a year later of a book about that invasion, which very much took the Palestinians side. And in that review, he betrayed his own antisemitism between the lines and in a few lines quite explicitly.

And it caused a minor controversy then, which over the years grew into a bigger and bigger controversy about Rul Dahl, because that was the time when he basically admitted to

And yes, the setup is that at the same time, his publishers, for our Strauss and Geru in America

“and Jonathan Cape in London, they're about to release his new book, The Witches, which”

would be his fifth book. And they've all been sensational successes, and they were very worried that this one wouldn't sell because of the controversy or he'd stirred. So that's the setup. They are there to get him to back down and apologize and explain and rationalize what he's

written, and he wants nothing to do with that. There's a distinction to be made between criticizing the policies of the Israeli government

and condemning Jewish people as a whole.

But the lines can get fuzzy, and assumptions can be made that antisemitism is at the heart of anybody criticizing Israel.

“And I think part of the brilliance of this place that in the first act, when we don't”

learn dolls exact words from the article he wrote, or other comments that would be made public later, we're kind of invited to explore our own feelings about this and think maybe Rul Dahl is just making a point about the conduct of war and not about the Jewish people. Yeah, it sort of throws an audience off balance, no matter what their political leanings and feelings are.

You know, you back away from the phrase villain, and I appreciate that.

We don't want him just to be the villain of the piece, but he's a dark character or he's a character with a very dark side. But the play becomes this ferocious debate between him and this young American Jewish woman from a New York publishing house. And that debate is extremely articulate.

It's very passionate on both sides in the case of dolls side of the argument. The argument is polluted by antisemitism, but he's right on occasion. He's like a broken clock and the audience, I mean, up on the stage, you can almost hear their anxiety trying to grapple this. Right.

And the debate gets increasingly personal and in the end, dolls says some things which, I mean, I was at one performance and there was one comment, I'm sure it's the one you know, that the audience audibly gasped. It was something he said to a reporter, right? I deliberately don't quote it in interviews because it has such power in performance.

But it is something he literally said, it's an unspeakable turn of phrase. And it's it's like it is the moment at which people see the very darkest side of doll. And they see it very clearly and it's right near the end of the play. So in a sense, the whole play has been building to that moment, my challenge in playing the role is to spend the whole play motivating that moment.

I almost explaining that moment, explaining it emotionally as much as politically. Right.

“And he did have a hard life in a lot of ways, right?”

So that was my way in, it had a very hard life, there's several elements, you know, when you ask yourself what makes him hate like that, the various clues I found had to do with his upbringing and his experiences. He was born a Norwegian, of a Norwegian family, but that family lived in Wales, his father had been brought to Cardiff to work in the shipping industry.

But he off he went to English boarding schools, he wrapped in, he was an outsider from the get go, trying to get on the inside. And in his life, he just suffered these terrible losses in the same year, he was very young, he lost both his father and his older sister. He went off to prep school where he was brutally beaten, he had a horrifying, plain accident

in World War II when he was an RAF fighter pilot, a solo accident in the Libyan desert when by rights, it should have killed him, but instead it just left him in terrible pain for his entire life, and he married Patricia Neel, who had three terrible strokes, even though he was a very troubled marriage, he obsessively nursed her, for a month old son, his pram was hit by a taxi in New York City, and he grew up with brain damage, and he

that absolutely haunted him, I'm convinced of that, and it was almost as if he was angry

at life, because his life was so desperately difficult. And you take all those things into account, and this is a highly intelligent, extremely clever witty, and charming man who just has this dark streak of crew, he's like he can't resist, goding, and tormenting people. This play is being performed now, and was performed in England at a time when there's

very bitter division in controversy about actions of the Israeli military in Gaza, not unlike in some ways this controversy about the invasion of Lebanon, which was launched in response to PLO rocket attacks in Israel, this, of course, the Gaza invasion response to that savage attack, the October 7 attack by Hamas, I'm wondering what reaction you've

“heard to the play, what kind of conversations it's part?”

Well, everybody says it's just astounding how timely it is, it's a play about a moment 40 years ago, and here we were rehearsing it once again for Broadway, and the same thing has happened, without chasing up to the PLO, chasing after Hezbollah, and trying to put an end to missiles and raids from Hezbollah forces in Lebanon, there are lines in the play that just hear people gasp, they are so timely, it's almost describing what's happening now.

We should note that in 2020, Rolldahl's family posted an apology for his anti-Semitism on the

family website, they apologized and he never did, right?

I wanted to talk about some of your other iconic roles, but there are a lot of them, and one of them that I really remembered was you playing Winston Churchill in the series The Crown, which is created by Peter Morgan, I love that series, and you play this, I mean, he's an iconic figure for the English in the 20th century. I wanted to play a clip here, this is one of many meetings that the Prime Minister had with

the sovereign. The Queen here is a fairly young Elizabeth played by Claire Foie, and the Prime Minister would regularly meet with the Queen. This is one where an argument erupts when the Queen relates that her husband, Prince Philip, wants to become an aviator.

It's listen. He's learning to fly. Whatever for.

“Have we not enough qualified pilots to take him where he needs to go?”

No, he wants to fly himself.

It's a boy who dream, it's what he's always wanted.

Why was government not consulted? Because it's a private matter, and I am in favor. Nothing you or his Royal Highness do is a private matter, and the father of the future King of England risking his life needlessly is quite unacceptable. Please, do not curtail my husband's personal freedoms any further.

You've taken away his home, you've taken away his name. There comes the time where one must draw a line in the sand. And the job of growing that line falls to Cabinet, man, not to you. Something your dear late papar would certainly have taught you had he been brought at more time to complete your education.

And that is John Lithko, practically spitting as Winston Churchill. The Queen at the Catholic Queen. There are so many of these things. When you got this role, I imagine that Churchill is the kind of guy that everybody in England can do an impression of.

Was it daunting to take this on? I'm enrolled and played by a lot of other people? It was extremely daunting, and you're right. And everybody imitates Churchill. Everybody quotes Churchill.

There are pubs named for Churchill. And I was completely astonished when I was asked to do it by Peter Morgan, the writer, and Stephen Daldrey, the mean director. I wasn't about to say no. These were very impressive people.

If they wanted me, I was amazed that they wanted me, but I was flattered and extremely excited to play the part. But you know, I was a young when I sat down with Stephen, Daldrey, for breakfast in a diner,

“after I'd said yes, I said, Stephen, why did you cast me?”

And he said, well, Churchill's mother was an American. And you know, she was.

The other thing that happened was I arrived in England and all the English actors were so enthusiastic about the idea.

“I mean, I've done a lot of acting in England, playing English roles.”

And listening to this clip that you've just played, I can hear my Americanism. But there's a certain excitement to mingling an American energy with an English character. I mean, I'm speaking as objectively as I can about this. I've read this in one or two reviews. But sometimes it helps sort of enliven the drama or the comedy.

This was particularly true of Churchill. And they somehow felt they wanted to shake things up as they did in every way on the crown. The crown is such a surprising show because these very familiar characters whom you know in the most public way possible the queen, the king, the princesses, to actually go into their lives and see them in intimate settings and having very, very human problems and conflicts.

That was what was arresting about the crown.

“Well, in a sense, that was true of portraying Churchill this way.”

Right.

I really love the series and you know, when you came on, and the first time you were on screen

as tried, I thought, "Oh, god, yeah, they're shy, let's go, yeah, I recognize him." Pretty soon, it wasn't John Lethgall. I mean, you were a Churchill, I mean. And one of the things I read is that you placed little balls of some material in the jaws of your cheeks to give you that browner and that thing going.

Yes, yes. I experimented with that when I was still in America before I went over there. I used a melon baller to create these little balls of apple. And I put them in the back of the back of my cheeks. And you Churchill had this unique list that John was generated by the back of his tongue.

And it worked wonderfully.

I even took my melon baller and an apple to one of the first rehearsals, which was nothing

but sitting around the table and talking. But I proposed this idea and in front of everybody, I carved out two little apple balls and stuck them in the back and spoke and spoke some of the irons and I would be by with one of those things. And it was sensational, but my mouth immediately filled up with apple cider, you know.

I mean, and I was spitting all over the table. Well, we hired this great toothpasteer, a man named Christopher Lyons, who does all the great false teeth for 'til the Swinton and Meryl Streep as Maggie Thatcher. Well, he made these little silicon pumpers, we call them, that clicked onto my back teeth. It changed everything.

I mean, it made me so sad on the mic, so because he did have this, it's how he sounded like he had mobbles in the back of his mouth. But it also just made me feel so different from myself. I mean, I've worked with the RSC, the Shakespeare Company and at the National and I've done about 10 roles of Englishman in England.

And I'm better at it. I must say, listening to myself as Churchill, I still had a lot to learn. Really? You're better at an English accent now than you were when you played with him. I think so.

I'm doing Dumbledore and Harry Potter with a marvelous dialect coach who's watching me like

a hawk, and she doesn't give me many new notes anymore, but she certainly did the first

few months. Yeah, this is for the HBO series, based on Harry Potter, have you finished shooting that the first series? I have finished, they still have another month to go, but they squeezed all my stuff into allowing me to do giant on Broadway, so my last month of work was brutal.

It aged me, but then that with Dumbledore that comes in handy. You know, I have to ask at age 80, you know, I'm not 80, but I'm older, I'm an older person now, and by my short term memory isn't what it used to be. I am just amazed that you, I mean, you're practically every scene of this play on Broadway.

“You're doing eight shows a week, is it hard to remember to learn lines that many lines?”

It's harder than it used to be to learn the lines, but once they're in there, I'm fine. Yeah.

You're an old man, that 80.

“Well, you got plenty left in you, you better, because this HBO production is going to”

last time of year. Well, the handy thing is I'm playing all these broken down old men, so I get better cast every year. Alright, let's take another break here, let me reintroduce you. We're speaking with John Lithgow, he stars as writer, rolled down in the new Broadway play

giant. He'll talk more about his career after this short break, I'm Dave Davies, and this is fresh air. With message comes from wise, the app for international people using money around the globe.

You can send, spend, and receive an up to 40 currencies with only a few simple taps.

Be smart, get wise, download the wise app today, or visit wise.com, tease and seize apply. Hi, this is Molly C.V. Nusper, digital producer at Fresh Air. And this is Terry Gross, host of the show. One of the things I do is write the weekly newsletter.

And I'm a newsletter fan, I read it every Saturday after breakfast. The newsletter includes all the week shows, staff recommendations, and Molly picks timely highlights from the archive. It's a fun read. It's also the only place where we tell you what's coming up next week, and exclusive.

So subscribe at WHy.org/FreshAir and look for an email from Molly every Saturday morning. You are no stranger to the stage, right?

“I think you were first on a stage at age two.”

Your parents were both actors. Your dad was a director and manager of a lot of regional theater. Give us a sense of what your childhood was like and how you would embrace acting. Well, I had a real kind of midwestern small town, Booth Parkington, sort of childhood up until the age of, I guess, 11 sixth grade.

My father was a professor at Andy O. College and created this summer Shakespeare festival that lasted for years and years and became more and more professional. And a certain point he decided, I'm going to become a professional theater man instead of a university professor, and off. We went.

That was at the end of my sixth grade year and between then and my graduation from high school, I lived in about eight different places.

“We just moved and moved and moved because it's not an easy life, creating and running”

regional theaters, God knows.

Four Shakespeare festivals in Ohio and ultimately ten years running them a Carter theater in

Princeton, but I was off to college by that time. So the word is parapotetic. I was like a service branch, except in the service of American classical repertoire theater. I know you did a lot of different kinds of jobs kind of helping your dad out with the theater companies that he managed.

When did you really get the acting book? When you had that experience and said, gosh, this is what I want to do. It was in college. I arrived at Harvard where all the campus theater was extracurricular. And within two weeks I was cast in a major role Reverend Anderson in the Devil's Disciple

at the Big Globe Theater and boom, I was the campus star. I mean, I was already an experienced actor without any intention of becoming an actor, which is the best possible way to become an actor, and by the time I finished college, well, off I went to London to study and earnest at Lambda. But it was that period, a wonderful creative four years where I played major roles.

I directed and designed a directed two Mozart operas and staged a ballet. It was just, there was no question, this is what I'm going to do with my life. You know, I know that from your memoir that you have a long and deep relationship with the city of London, I mean, when you return to the States, your sister was annoyed that you had come back with a British accent, you wrote, "I emanated Englishness like a cheap

cologne." Did you purge it consciously from you? You know, I was in this wonderful Lambda program called It's the D group, which is foreign language students, which is 80% Americans, young American acting students, and I figured, well, I'm going to make a conscious effort not to absorb an English accent, because after

But, you know, after two years in London, it's true, my sister simply wouldn't speak to me.

“She said, "I sounded so pretentious because of my English accent," and I said, "What accent?"”

You know, it's clearly, I'd absorbed it without knowing it.

I just basically began to tell people, "No, I'm not English.

I'm just pretentious." I have to talk about third rock from the Sun. This was the sitcom you were in for what? Six years, right? 96 to 2001, and I thought we'd just start with a clip.

You and three others play a group of aliens who've landed on Earth on some kind of observational mission. You look like normal people, but here's the opening scene of episode one. When the four of you are in a car, and you've just landed on Earth, and you're in this parked car, and you're examining yourselves in your new human form, kind of getting used

to your new bodies. Next to you is another car with a couple of making out, and we'll hear that you and

your fellow aliens notice the couple and make some inaccurate guesses about what they're

up to. Let's listen. Everyone fully formed. Yeah, everyone got 10 fingers, 11 toes. Yeah, good, I guess we're in.

Everyone comfortable? I have three holes in my face.

“Can anyone get your head to swivel to the rear?”

No. No. And how are you supposed to lick your back? Maybe you do what they're doing. Look, life forms, and they're cleaning each other.

Look at us. I can't believe we look like them. Is anybody else sweating under their breasts? No. In fact, I don't have any.

I have tiny ones. And that is our guest, John Lythko, along with Kirsten Johnston French, Stuart and Joseph

Gordon Levitt from the opening episode of Third Rock From The Sun.

The fun to hear? Well, yes, but I, you know, there was a long, sort of learning curve for those for aliens.

“One of the great things about Third Rock is how the comedy got more and more complex”

and sophisticated as they became more like humans. But it's kind of unfi, I haven't heard that for gosh, 20 years, 25 years, that opening scene. It's wonderful. Joseph Gordon Levitt was one of those voices, and he was only 13 years old with it.

Yeah, and the show was actually taped Tuesday nights, right, in front of a live audience, right? So I've heard you say that one of the great things about Third Rock is that you're telling the story at the same instant, the audience is experiencing it, which is so different from shooting a movie or a TV show that's, you know, edited it.

Yes, we were spending four days preparing to perform for a large studio audience, and it was a point of honor for us to make them genuine, like, laugh their heads off, so that no can, laughter was necessary. We would get them laughing for like 15 and 20 seconds, it was just thrilling, and, you know, when I talk about that lightning in a bottle experience of telling a story while the audience

is hearing it, they, we were able to capture that. We are speaking with John Lithko, he stars as writer, rule, doll, in the new Broadway play giant. We'll continue our conversation after this short break. This is fresh air.

I just wanted to talk about the world according to GarP. This is really taking us back 1982. You earned an Oscar nomination for playing Roberta Muldoon, a trans woman, who is your height, which was six foot four. This is of course based on the novel by John Irving, and we'll hear a clip here.

Robin Williams plays a writer named TS GarP, and in this scene he's visiting a home that his mother Jenny operates for women who've been abused or traumatized. Your character, Roberta, lives there, you know, I guess I mentioned your trans woman. And in this scene GarP, who is played by Robin Williams, has just had a tense encounter with one of the women at the home, and you're, you've intervened to break it up and

you walk away and kind of get acquainted with GarP. Let's listen. "Oh, since making things any worse than they are, with whole house full of, I know, you know, everyone here has something missing, or some wood, the won't heal, and your mother tries to nurse them back to health.

She's a wonderful person." "What are you visiting somebody here?" "No.

"You just seem like the only normal person around the place." "Oh, I don't know." "What do you use a corny line like this, but I haven't seen you before." "You like football?"

“"Oh, here, you have to watch it quite a bit."”

"Well, you might have seen me." "I was a tight end with a filled-up of eagles." "Number 90, Robert Maldune." "Oh, oh." "I had a great pair of hands."

"Yes, you did." "Yeah." "That is Robin Williams with our guest John Lithko in the World According to GarP." "Got an Oscar nomination for that performance." "What are your memories of that role?"

"Getting into that character." "Oh, very, very happy memories."

“"It was a beautifully written character in the novel."”

"And I'd read the novel a couple of years before and never dreaming it would be a movie."

"And I loved the character of Robert Maldune." "But when I was asked to go in and meet George Roy Hill, the director who was casting World According to GarP, I couldn't figure out what part he would want me for." "And my agent's assistant said, "Well, I'm not sure because there must be a typo when the casting is the character of Roberta." "And suddenly I remembered the character and I thought, "Oh my God, this is my role, this is perfect."

"I went off and I was very excited to play it because I loved the character in the book." "I went off and met with George Roy Hill and the great casting director, Marion Darty, who had fingered me for this role and George ruled it out immediately." "He felt I was too tall and pairing me next to Robin, and would be too comical." "And so I was very disappointed."

"And about eight months passed during which time he must have seen a hundred people for the role of Roberta Maldune, including genuine athletes and genuine transgender women and actors of all stripes."

"I kept on looking and finally came back to me, and I screen-tested for it, and finally got the part."

"You know, they dressed me in drag, and by a coincidence I had read a book a couple of years ago, called Conundrum, a memoir by Jan Morris, a transgender travel journalist from England." Who fearlessly described in great detail every stage of the process, including the surgical process, and the experience of first living her life as a woman and feeling more complete for the first time. And I simply kind of improvised the role of Jan Morris in front of the camera while George Roy Hill asked me questions from off-camera.

"And that's what got me the role. He just found me completely convincing in the role." "Well, you know, that was more than 40 years ago than I saw that. And I still, when I think of that film, I think of you in that role." "Another one that I remember, that's of the same era, is you playing a professional killer in the Brian De Palma film, blowout." "Oh, yeah. Murder thriller with John Travolta and Nancy Allen." They're particularly a scene where you're in a phone booth calling the police acting as a sexual predator who kills women

and is confessing to a crime as part of the plot. He's actually not that. He's a professional assassin.

“And it was just so affecting that I still remember that.”

"You can't imagine how you're complimenting me, Dave. I remember that so vividly. I was costumed as an electrician, you know, with a hard hat, like a city utility worker. And yet on the phone, I was pretending to be a sort of frail psychotic killer." "And I mean, I had such fun playing that scene for you to invoke it 40 years later." "Well, you've made my day for better or worse." "That's one of my images of John Lythko."

"And it's one of Brian's great films, I think." "And John, one of John Travolta's great performances." "You know, one thing we haven't talked about is that you've written children's books and you entertained children." "You've done children's shows quite a bit, which I assume is not the best paying gigs you get." "What do you like about entertaining kids?"

"Well, I haven't done it in a while, but there was a good 15-year period there where it was virtually a second career, sort of under the radar.

I did write the nine picture books, and of those nine, like six of them, were based on songs or narrations with orchestra that I performed for kids in concert, including songs that I had made up with music written by a wonderful composer Bill Elliott."

"So it was very personal to me, I ended up doing three albums for kids, and I started doing concerts with major orchestras, like our long concerts."

“"And I must have performed with about a dozen of them, including the Pittsburgh and the Baltimore and the Chicago and the San Diego and San Francisco."”

"What was thrilling about it and you're right, it was not for money at all. It was just an ecstatic experience entertaining children." "I've always felt that what we actors aspire to is suspension of disbelief, making an audience believe for even a half a second that what they're seeing is what is actually happening, and not a fiction, it's the real thing." "And it'll make you laugh, cry, or scream out, and terror, and just that feeling that I pulled it off. I really feel I fooled them for a second, like a magician pulling off a great trick."

"You never really fool adults, you know you're in the same theater with them, and they're watching actors, paid actors, speaking other people's words, but kids completely suspend their disbelief."

"Completely, they are absolutely thrilled by everything they see, and it's my concerts with them where these kind of all sorts of interactive games." "I would play this game called "Guess the Animals," where I would start to draw an animal on an enormous easel, and they would start screaming, "It's a hippo, it's a hippo!" "And I would say, "It's a what? It's a what? I thought you would get this, but it's a hippo!" "And I would say, "Oh, you got it, it's a hippo, and then I would sing the great hippo song, mud, glorious mud by flanders and swan."

"It was just giving them this wonderful time, and in the case of orchestra concerts, giving them a great experience in a concert hall, and a great first look at an orchestra."

“"You are prolific." I mean, how do you juggle all this? Do you have a staff of people that help you keep it straight?”

"No, no. I have an indispensable assistant, but unfortunately she's in LA, and I'm in New York, so everything is done online."

"I just, I'm always bursting with projects far more than half of them. I never complete, but bright ideas that just sort of like me up, and I have to try them."

"My brother describes me as that silver dome that you put your hand on in physics class in high school when you're the static makes your hair stick out on end." "That's you. You're just full of ideas all the time. It never stops." "Some of it is the kind of fear that I don't have anything else to do. Nobody will hire me to act." "Let me fill up my time with something creative. I drive my wife completely crazy."

“"And you must be a heck of a granddad with all that kid stuff." "Oh my god, I love my grandchildren so much. And I've got it. And they go from age 20 down to age 8 months at the moment, so that's a great crowd."”

"Well, John, let's go. It's been fun. Thank you so much for spending some time with us." "Great to talk to you, Dave. I had a wonderful time." John Lithko stars as writer Roll Dopp in the new Broadway play Giant. Coming up, John Powers Reviews stay alive, a new book from Ian Baruma about life in Berlin during World War II. This is fresh air. Journalist and historian Ian Baruma has spent decades writing about dark corners of 20th century history. In his latest book, "Stay alive" Berlin 1939 to 1945, Baruma explores what life was like during World War II in the German capital, where his father was working as a forced laborer.

Our critic at large John Powers says Baruma's observations of life under Nazi rule has special relevance now in an era of creeping authoritarianism. It's been 80 years since Adolf Hitler shot himself in his bunker, yet our fascination with the Nazi era seems eternal.

By now, I've read and seen so many different things that I'm always surprised when somebody offers a new angle on what the Nazis wrote.

Ian Baruma does this in "Stay alive" Berlin 1939 to 1945, a new book about living in a country where you have no control over what happens. Inspired by the experience of his Dutch father Leo, who was forced to do factory work in Berlin.

He weaves together a chronicle that carries Berliners from the triumphant days when Germany's steam-rolled Poland and daily life felt almost normal, unless you were Jewish, of course.

“Through the end of the war, when bombs pulverize the city, and Soviet soldiers arrived to rape and pillage.”

As he writes of air raid drills, food shortages, and the incestant deluge of rumors, Baruma has to deal with the difficulty that most ordinary Germans left behind very little record. They kept their heads down and tried to stay alive. And so, the book moves among more interesting characters, whose multiplicity gives dimension to our usual flatten sense of Nazi Germany. We meet Coco Schumann, a young Jewish guitarist who risks his life to play the jazz music that Nazi's considered degenerate. We meet the 15-year-old Lilo, who starts off thinking that Nazi ideals make life beautiful, but comes to admire the greater nobility of those who try to assassinate Hitler.

There's the dissident intelligence officer Helmet von Moldke, a conservative who seeks to work from inside against the Nazis.

“He gets hanged for his trouble, and there's Eric Allenfeld, a Jew who converted to Christianity and remained a German patriot.”

He sent a letter to Reichsminister Hermann Gürring asking if he could serve. Now, we do encounter several of the usual suspects. Most notably propaganda minister Joseph Gerbl's, who, when not coercing young actresses into sex, is busy generating false headlines, ordering movie spectacles to distract the masses. He loved Walt Disney, and monitoring the city's morale.

Always laying down edicts, like ordering Jews to wear the yellow star.

He's the Nazi who may have done most to affect Berlin's daily life. He even keeps banning and reinstating dancing.

“Along the way, stay alive is laced with nifty details.”

How one family trained its parrot to say "highly Hitler" to fool the Nazis if they came to arrest someone. How a cruel filmmaker's kept shooting a movie with no film in the camera, so they wouldn't be drafted to fight doomed last-ditch battles. How Jewish villas in the posh Greenwald area were bought up or seized by Nazi big shots, but now belong to Russian oligarchs. And how some of those trying to elude the Nazis became known as U-boats, because they dived into the city's murky underworld, even hiding out in brothels.

As one has written well for decades about historical guilt and denial, Buroma is too savvy to blabber familiar Nazi horrors. That said, he offers two dark truths that struck these being especially apt in these days when authoritarianism is making a worldwide comeback.

The first is that you can't live in a dirty system without somehow being corrupted.

Whether you were a famous symphony conductor or a cop on the beat, Nazi is imtainted virtually everyone. Borsing people to do and say abhorrent things they often didn't believe in, and weakening their moral compass. As Von Malka wrote his wife, "To day I can endure the sufferings of others with an equanimity, I would have found executable a year ago." He wasn't alone. The second dark truth is how easy it is to simply go along. Most Berliners, and even Buroma's own father, did their jobs, took their pleasures, and preferred not to think about the evils under their noses.

This Buroma says he is "disturbing", but should not surprise anyone. Human beings adapt, carry on, turn away from things they don't wish to see or hear. If the book has a hero, it's probably Ruth Andreus Friedrich, a journalist who didn't turn away. Along with her partner, the conductor Leo Bordchard, she ran a resistance group named Uncle Emil, risking her life to protect Jews, help them escape, and support other Rubus battling the Nazis. All this makes her much braver than I've ever been, but I equally admire her refusal to be sanctimonious about those who fearing prison or worse didn't rise up against the dictatorship.

She had the rear virtue of being righteous, without being self-righteous. John Powers reviewed "Stay Alive" by Ian Barumann. [Music] Fresh air's executive producer is Sam Breger. Our senior producer today is Roberta Shorok. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham, with additional engineering help from Adam Standa Chefsky and Diyada Martinez.

Our digital media producer is Molly CV Nesper. They are a challenger directed today's show, for Terry Gross and Tanya Mosley. I'm Dave Davies.