Lee Sung Jin on the breakthrough that led him to ‘BEEF’

But a free press doesn't just happen, it's something we must protect. Without federal funding, we're relying on your support now. Please show your support today at plus.npr.org. This is Fresh Air, I'm Tonya Mosley, and my guest today is creator, writer, and director, Lee Sung-jen.

The second season of his Netflix series "Beaf", just earned 16 Emmy nominations, including

nominations for writing, directing, and executive producing. Lee says he writes what he knows, and what he keeps returning to are the pressure's people carry but rarely talk about. Money, class, and the anger we sometimes swallow to get through the day. The idea for season two began when Lee was walking through his neighborhood and heard a couple arguing with each other inside of their home. Later, when he told the story, his younger friends were horrified.

Did you call 911 they asked? Friends his own age had almost the opposite reaction. They shrugged. Lee couldn't stop thinking about that split. What it revealed about what different generations expect from relationships and what happens when the private lives of one generation collide with the values of another.

That became the new season of beef. Oscar Isaac and Carrie Mulligan play a married couple whose ugliest private fight is secretly recorded by two young employees. Ashley and Austin played by Kaylee Spani and Charles Melton. The next morning, Austin comes over and offers Mulligan's character a safe place if she needs it. And she tells him that he's misunderstood the situation. How old are you?

29. Um, and how long have you and what's the name? Ashley. Ashley. How long have you and Ashley been going out? Yeah, no half. Wow. So early. Well, you've got a good fight coming.

And when it does come, you two are going to be stronger for it.

“If I may say this, man, I don't think that's how relationship is work.”

All right. All I'll say is that all the couples I know that last, they've really had out of, you know. There's actually the ones that don't where someone's usually hiding or something. I mean, not to say that that's your situation with them. Ashley, but the bad does have to come out somewhere. Don't send.

The first season of beef, starring Ali Wong and Steven Young, also grew out of a moment Lee couldn't let go of. A road rage encounter that ended with him following another driver for nearly half an hour. At season one, eight Emmys, including outstanding limited series.

Before creating beef, Lee spent years writing for comedies, including it's always sunny in Philadelphia

and Silicon Valley. Lee Sang Jin, welcome to fresh air and congratulations. Thank you so much. Thanks for having me.

“And I'm just so curious. What was it about your friends' reaction to those people fighting in your neighborhood that really sparked this for you?”

Well, you know, to be honest, the actual neighbors are older. They're probably boomers, I think. I don't know, they're exact age, but when I was talking to friends and writers, it was interesting that the forty-some-year-olds were all defending the boomers. And I was trying to examine why that is, and I'm like, "Oh, no, it's because we're old now." We know what it's like to be in a relationship.

Yeah, I thought that while like elder millennials haven't really, I hadn't really seen characters wrestle with the fact that, "Oh, we're starting to feel and do things

that the previous generation did for the first time."

And you know, as someone who's 44, that felt very potent and relevant. And so, yeah, it just kind of sparked something in me.

“I also wondered, is there something very specific about mid-life at this time period for millennials in particular?”

Because in this series, Oscar Isaac and Carrie Mulligan, they play Josh and Lindsay, and they're a married couple who Josh actually works for this really swanky country club. And then the two younger people, they also work there. Josh has a little bit more power because he's a manager, but all of them kind of don't have power. But they begin throughout the course of the series to battle against each other.

Yeah, it's just interesting. I was very much intended. I had the privilege of going to use a country club for a month because I was house sitting for one of my best friends, who, you know, we were even friends since our mid-20s. We're broke and poured together, dumped in random places in LA,

and he recently came into a lot of money in tech over the last few years. And so, he became a member of Montesito Country Club. And I was house sitting for him for like a month, and he allowed me to use his membership while I was there. And, you know, I kind of turned my nose up at it, being like, that's crazy the amount of money you're paying for this place. It's a 300K initiation fee.

That's just to applaud even your yearly dues. No, so then it's dues, all this stuff, you know, you're encouraged to donate. And then once you enter the club, it's not like it's like a free buffet. You pay for everything and everything, you know, it's extraordinarily costly. And, you know, I found myself like, you know, three days into using it or I'm like,

"Oh, can I see an application, please?" You know, and so, yeah, while I was there, I was observing that, you know, probably most of the members are like boomer silent gen for my estimation. And then almost all the workers were millennial in Gen Z. And I thought, well, that's a, you know, analogy for 2026 if I've ever seen one, where no matter how hard the Millennials and Gen Z workers work,

they're never going to get to eat members.

They're not going to be able to pay that 300K initiation fee.

“And that felt like an appropriate metaphor for, I think, how a lot of people are feeling today, you know.”

Did you ever feel comfortable in those places? You know, I think humans have this really weird ability to hedonically adapt so fast, you know. And I think like, yeah, you enter then you see this opulence and just everything's perfect. The grass is perfectly manicured, you know, there's, you know, for every member like, you know, 12 staff, like, you know, you're, you're seeing your every need. And then, and then you're like, oh, like, who this is, why all that anyone lives this way?

And then like, yeah, you then like, you do it a couple times and then you expect it. And then, and then you, and then you get upset when it doesn't happen. Yeah. And, and so that also is a theme that really hit home for me. And I thought it would be interesting to have, you know, a Gen Z couple that's starting at the very bottom.

You see, slowly over time, how easy it is to become the generation before you that you were judging and criticizing the time. Mm-hmm. There's a particular episode that also almost comes directly from your life. And it's episode four. Yes.

Actually, in Austin, played by Kaylee Spaniy and Charles Melton, spent almost the entire episode wrapped in an emergency room waiting room.

And Charles Melton speaks first.

Okay, we're in this system. We shouldn't be too long. Thanks for taking care of me. I love you so much. I love you.

Thank God for health insurance. She said, you know, it's super high deductible. 5,000. Oh, wow. We can deduct $5,000.

“What if it cost less did they give us a difference?”

It's kind of the opposite. Huh? We paid up to $5,000. Then what is health insurance? They cover after.

We hit the deductible. Why did they call it a deductible? You deduct. I know it's a broken system for show. Right.

Why is it called a deductible, right? Exactly. Yeah. Those were thoughts I had in my 20s. Yeah.

You actually spent 10 plus hours in a hospital emergency room. This came from real life. Yeah. In the middle of the writing season, you know, in a weird way was Serendipitous in the sense that we were sort of stuck narratively.

“I think we had written three episodes and, you know, not really sure what would happen next”

and oddly enough, kind of, in the middle of that. There was a sort of emergency that led to, I can honestly say, like, a 10 to 11 hour student at a local L.A. hospital. And, you know, it's one of the nicer, probably the nicest local L.A. hospital as well.

And so, to basically experience almost everything that happened in the episode, you know, from all

took note of, you know, that teenage kid with the bandage had in sunglasses, you know, the drug you're going through withdrawal vomiting, you know, it just truly felt like, you know, like, a modern, anonymous Bosch hell painting. All right. I got to talk just for a minute about season one because we got to talk about this road

rage situation that also came from a real thing that happened to you. You were in a parking lot and you got into it with somebody. You started following them for quite a distance. Sure.

And my question about this because you tell this story often, especially during the first run

“of the first season, what would you have done if that person had stopped?”

Uh, I, I, I probably would have to sped away. I mean, the, the, a, a, a declare, five, the only reason it was such a long, sort of, uh, uh, stalking, I, that's called it, is because, uh, I was getting on the ten, uh, one of the main highlights in the leg. Yeah.

And it was bumper to bumper traffic. And so what started very heated, then eventually you're just sort of, it's not like the movies or, or the show where you're chasing, you're just sort of like stalk.

And then like 30 minutes go by and then you're like, okay, I'm not that angry anymore.

And then, you know, but then it was sort of for two of us on that day. We were both going to the same exit, which was on the opposite side of town. So you, okay.

“So I, in my car, I'm just, I've lost interest.”

I'm listening to music, you know, I'm just like kind of like in a better mood. And I could tell that in his car, he was like, this psychopath is following me across bumper to bumper traffic through all of LA. And that is what fascinated me is that we're in our literal mechanical bubbles. Uh-huh.

And trapped in our own subjectivity completely unaware of what the person is making or feeling. You said that there's a piece of you in every character. And I want to talk about the character Danny for a minute, because he's full of rage, but rage is really only half of him.

For the very first episode, he is failing at work.

He's carrying his family, he's smiling throughout all of it. And then in episode three, one of his lowest moments, he walks into this church. And there is music playing, they are singing, and it's actually the church that is ex-girlfriend and her husband, Worship, and the husband is the pastor. And as the congregation begins singing, Danny falls apart.

He starts to sing with them, and then he gets kind of like the Holy Ghost. And he sings through his tears. You were part of a church that was similar to this. You're a musical person. You played the violin for many years.

Did you play for church? I did. Yeah, growing up, I moved around a lot, and I moved up and down the Midwest. And every state in the Midwest, the Korean church is sort of the hub of where we're just all Koreans interact. And even if you're not Christian, that's just become like the social fabric of the Korean community.

So I attended Korean church my whole life in junior high school, started leading praise team, singing and playing guitar. I think especially in your teenage years, religion becomes a means to how you're sort of trying to grapple with these existential questions. You may not have the language yet to really talk about these existential questions as necessarily I am now in my writing. But the spirit of it was there.

“And I think that's why I think now I'm in my writing constantly, sort of approaching it from almost a spiritual standpoint.”

Because I think from a young age, I could just had this feeling that this material world isn't really all there is. There's got to be something underneath it, and if there isn't, then how do I wrestle with that? I read that you pretended to have the Holy Ghost at one point. Yeah, that was when I lived in San Antonio and then... And how old were you about?

I was like a senior in high school. Yeah, there was like a summer retreat at like in rural Texas. And it was like kind of like a penicostal church, even though the church I attended was not penicostal. And it was extreme. Like you stood in a line and the pastor comes and touches your forehead and people fell over fainted.

And then the hand hits your forehead and you almost convince yourself to start speaking in tongues.

“Did you feel it? Did you have an emotional release at all or cry or just feel within you?”

Not in that moment. I definitely had those moments like Danny's at various points of worship. But in that moment it felt very performative and almost like I was an imposter. You know, like I'm looking at everyone else and like that seems genuine. And then here I am, like, man, why can I speak of tongues? You know, did not get the Rosetta stone for that one.

And there is something that you say almost in all of your interviews. You talk about this research that you read and I had to go digging for it. And I actually found it and you were pretty accurate with it.

But you have mentioned this scientific belief that our inner voices are formed by how our caregivers talk to us when we were small.

And ever since I heard you say that, I've been rethinking everything. And I wanted to know how your parents talked to you. You know, we're working through that therapy actually right now. I love my parents. And I can't imagine their young adulthood moving to a foreign country. I'm a grandson. I'm a grandson.

Not really knowing the language. You know, my dad went to grad school at University of Illinois or Spanish campaign. And I moved here when I was nine months old with my mom and dad and slept in the dorm. You know, it was a dorm room that we all lived in.

“And I think that a lot of immigrant parents is not just mind.”

They're parenting in that era. The 80s was like to provide to help your child assimilate. And to really make sure that this move was worth it. That you're trying to give your child a better life than the one that you had. And so I think, you know, there, it's, I think it's a different love language than maybe what like modern western culture is used to where, you know,

now it's like gentle parenting and you've got to like, you know, accept the child as they are and kind of continue to make them feel supported through like words of affirmation. What did your parents do? My dad was a professor of electrical and computer engineering. And he then worked for Samsung, which is why we moved back to Korea.

And he actually designed Samsung's first supercomputer, which is extraordinary.

And my mom, she was going to be a classical pianist, but then gave it all up to raise my sister and me. So, you know, she's still, she ended up later in life once my sister went to college. She got her masters in music. And so, you know, was able to sort of fulfill her dreams in that way.

Highly accomplished people. Yes, they are. So, you were a straight-a student. Almost perfect SAT or maybe you did and it's laid the violin. I mean, highly, highly, you know, just academically superior.

That was my parents for sure. It was a lot of, your whole childhood was like, you know, preparing to try and get into an Ivy League school. And so, hours of violin practice every day, you know, I played tennis. I, you know, was, you know, self-studying for the PSATs. I remember in, like, want to say, like, six grade.

And, uh, yeah, and, and, and, and it worked. I got into an Ivy League school and University of Pennsylvania. Yeah.

“Um, so, you know, I think the way they spoke to me makes sense with my inner monologue.”

I am very, like, you know, results driven. And, um, you know, I just saw the Novak joke of which, uh, trailer, uh, that came out this week. And here, hearing him talk about, like, tennis and stuff. Uh, I think the trailer's supposed to, like, highlight, like, oh, like, look how, like, how, how, how harsh he is on himself. And to me, I'm just like, oh, that's me.

What did you see in him in yourself? Just this drive for, uh, to prove everyone wrong to this drive for excellence, this unrelenting work ethic. Uh, to push yourself past your breaking point. Um, and I think that's something that, uh, I'm, I'm actually, I'm glad that was instilled in me at a young age.

Our guest today is the creator, writer, and director of beef on Netflix.

We'll be right back after a short break. I'm Tonya Mosley, and this is fresh air. On a new episode of R We Dooms, we are losing the moon. The moon is indeed drifting away. And what to do? Yeah, um, I think that's overkill.

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This is Fresh Air. I'm Tonya Mosley, and my guest today is Lee Sung Jin. The creator of the Netflix anthology series, Beef.

“The new season just earned 16 Emmy nominations, three of them for Lee himself,”

for writing, directing, and as executive producer. It's his second time nominated in all three categories. A first and Emmy history for an Asian television creator. Lee is also co-writing Marvel's upcoming X-Men film. And before beef, he spent nearly two decades writing for comedies,

like it's always sunny in Philadelphia and Silicon Valley.

Your family moved a lot. You all moved, as you mentioned, you lived up and down the Midwest in Texas. And then up in a soda, you go to you, Penn, you graduate in economics. Is that right? And then you decide, "I don't want to do this anymore."

And you moved to New York, and the first night you get there. Your car is like, people steal everything except for an Aladdin. C-V-D. What were you planning to do there? I thought maybe music. You know, I applied to so many music internships,

because I was so musical that didn't really pan out.

“I remember there was this one forum back when internet forums were more of a thing,”

where Jack Ponti, who is the guitarist for Bon Jovi, and just started a record label. And he posted that he was looking to hire interns. And I remember replying on that forum, stem my resume, and he was based in New Jersey, and I would drive out.

And I was just like box CDs and think from promotional materials. And I was able to leverage asking like, "Hey, I got all my being an intern, but is it okay if I create business cards of my own, where I can have my title be director of research?" And he was cool with it, so then I remember printing those out.

And in New York, I didn't know anybody, so I was so alone. I'm not exaggerating when I say I did not have a friend. And so I would Google where the free events were that night. You know, there would be some like, you know, condynos to be having some like release party at the Hermes store. And I would go get dressed up in my one suit with my little self-made business card.

I would stand in line, and I would sneak into the party. And then I would eat the free food, and that would be the dinner for my day, because I was so poor. And then I would just like try to, like, run the elbows in hand out like my business card, everybody. But like, how brave you are. I think I was just desperate.

Okay, so you become an NBC page, which is a program that you get to give tours to tourists and things through 30 Rock.

And this really amazing thing happens while you're a page,

the head of comedy sees something that you wrote and says, like, you're super talented. It gets you hooked up with an agent. You get an agent. You move to LA. Things get so tough for you while you're in LA, but you're still like, I'm going to do this.

Yeah.

Yeah, and I have an apartment.

Yeah, you know, I, I, my then writing partner and I went with sort of the fancy estate agent.

“Who was like, you have to move out by upfronts. And so we gave our jobs two weeks notice and moved out here.”

And I didn't bring my bed because I was like, oh, I'm going to be like a working writer and I'll buy a bed eventually. And just nothing happened. Like, couldn't get the agent to return our calls. You know, didn't really go out for any meetings. And suddenly it dawned on me like, oh, I've made a huge mistake.

And, uh, had to start tempting, you know, and I, in the meantime, I needed a place to sleep. So my then roommate's girlfriend worked at a hospital and she brought home a cot for me to sleep on. I slept on it for probably a year and a half. Yeah, yeah, I don't recommend you'll have like long time back issues. And, uh, you know, was doing that for probably almost two years.

The writer's strike also happened in 2008.

And then, right after the writer's strike, I was just so fortunate that Rob Charlie and Glenn had its always sunny.

I think they read a sample and asked for a meeting and the meeting only lasted like 10 minutes. And I thought I'd for sure didn't get it. And, but then that changed my life. Let's take a short break.

“If you're just joining us, my guest is Lee Sung-jin, creator of the Netflix anthology series, Beef.”

He's up for three Emmys this year for writing, directing, and as executive producer of the show's new season, which stars Oscar Isaac and Carrie Mulligan. We'll be right back after a break. This is fresh air. This week on Wait wait don't tell me we asked brought legend Vicky Peterson from the bangles.

Why she once filled in for the go-go's lead guitarist, Charlotte Kathy. If in Charlotte Kathy was pregnant with my ex-boyfriend's baby. What? Don't miss our full conversation in the rest of our games. Listen to the Wait wait don't tell me podcast in the NPR app.

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Get smarter and expand your world fast. Listen to here and now any time on the NPR app or wherever you listen to podcasts. This is fresh air. And today I'm talking with Lee Sung Jin. The Emmy-winning creator writer and director of the Netflix series Beef.

Jin has said there's a part of him and each character in beef. But he really identified with the character in the first season played by Steven Young, named Danny, who was depressed and considered suicide. If you were someone you know as in crisis, the suicide hotline is available 24/7.

Call or text the number 988. When we left off, we were talking about the two decades before beef.

When Lee Sung Jin worked in the writing rooms of shows like It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia,

Silicon Valley, and the animated series Tuka and Birdie. You got really good at what you call upright citizens per day type comedy, which is like Tina Fey, 30 Rock, kind of Zinger type things. And this is kind of like you were doing the thing that you knew would work, but it over time, it wasn't necessarily you.

You just got good at mimicking almost. I mean, I was just speaking in tongues comedically. Yes. I'm just looking around at everyone else speaking tongues doing these rapid fire jokes. And I'm like, okay, let me do my version of that.

But it did not come from a very soulful place at all. And I think I ended up on a show for three years that I think for a variety of reasons was very, very, very bad for my mental health. And I think when you are like being stretched further and further away from who you really are, it's almost like a rubber band. That's just stretching and stretching.

You can feel it inside of you. You're like, this isn't me, this isn't me. And then at some point it's going to snap.

“And you know, that's what happened after three years on that show as I snapped.”

And I, you know, that's when, you know, I kind of very, you know, this is where a lot of Danny comes from is sort of my brushes let's suicide. December 13, 2013. Mm-hmm. Yes.

Yeah. Yeah. And I ended up in the hospital. And, you know, there's this one thing that we wrote for Danny.

Mm-hmm.

“And we wrote that as sort of a joke, but it is very true.”

And yeah, that rock bottom for sure was my trampoline.

And started therapy for the very first time.

I started really re-examining everything in my life. And, you know, it was time to clean up the messy room for sure. One thing that's surprising to me about you though, okay, that work ethic also includes you. You read the negative things about yourself. Yeah.

A lot. It's true that you might, there's something you might have penned like a reddit conversation or something that you go back to. Well, there was a harrowing experience in a writer's room years ago, back in 2009, where, you know, I was, I think, yeah, I was the lone East Asian writer.

And I've gone to the bathroom come back and in my email, one of the writers,

they took in a photo of him, junior caricature of any station where he's doing this. Lanty eyes had kind of like pens, that's his book teeth. And, you know, writers laughing around him. And, you know, I just kind of laughed it off in the moment, you know, I don't think people really realize today how a lot of the racism that we speak of is so recent.

You know, that is kind of like within a decade and a half, you know. And I, that's the thing I have favored in my phone, where if I'm, if I feel like not working on a script, where I feel like I've hit sort of block, I will pull up my favorites folder, scroll to that one,

“and just be reminded like, you know, that's what, that's what people thought of me when I was starting.”

You know, I was, I was the diversity higher.

That's, that's the most anyone expected out of me.

What do you think that fuels you versus like praise? I think I am a lot like Danny in season one in some regards. You know, I think, you know, I'm trying to get better about it. I think Danny is sort of my older self, you know, Danny's got a huge chip on a shoulder, and he just feels like everyone is against him or, you know,

expecting the least out of him. And so he has this just drive to prove everybody wrong. And I think that that definitely is in me. And I think it's a, it's a, probably in a volumation of so many things, you know. There was something you, you said in an interview that I felt like, oh, I'm glad that someone has said it,

because it's something I've been thinking about a lot for myself. You know, I spend a lot of my career, majority of my career in white spaces, and being like the only person of color, black person at a table. Yeah. And especially in that time period of like from 2000 to like 2010 or so.

The crazy stuff was said, and I would, I would laugh, you know, I would laugh, and I might say, no, that was wrong, but like I wasn't, I was still like, participating, maybe falling even a bit. Yes. And I do look back in myself and when I relate to my children,

I do think like, well, why, why was I doing that? But it was hearing you talk about that, and almost like as a survival mechanism, you're of the thing, it just wasn't the time period to be assertive in saying, you know, even fear for going to HR. Like, no, I'm not going to be that person.

I'm going to be that person. Yeah.

“And I think that's what I think a lot of the current generation sort of takes for granted,”

sometimes is like, you know, you look back in hindsight and there's judgment being like, why didn't you, you just took that or like, you know, you know, understand like, this all had to happen the way it did to pave the way for now to be able to have a voice and like stand up and like be more vocal. But you know, we needed the baby steps of like sort of like, you know,

carbon out the past a little bit before you like put down the cement. And, and so it's hard because like in the current climate, you know, if my self talk sometimes is like a shame that I did that, but then I'm, I'm trying to like remind myself like, yeah, in that context, like that, that is the best that most of us could do.

It's just clock it internalize it, ruminate on it so that at the right time, we can express it and do something about it.

Absolutely insane.

Well, I'm glad you continue.

Thank you, likewise.

“And you know, those writers rooms, those were the breaking points,”

but you spent a whole life. I mean, we're called, I'm, I'm using the, the name, Lisaong Jen, but you went by Sunny. Yes. You, you came up with this name, Sunny,

and like six greater something? Yes, and six greater. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

I just moved back from Korea. I went to elementary school and Korea. And I moved to Minnesota and sixth grade. And, you know, had a bit of an accent. And, you know, my legal name is Sungjin Lee.

And Korea, you put the surname first.

And the teacher, every day with attendance, would just add consonants. Like, every day was a new, actually. Yeah, I was like, I don't know where that cue came from, but, and I was just brutally made fun of,

you know, just bullied. And one day, I was just staring at an assignment. And, you know, that's that name section with the line. And I was just like, you know what? I'm tired of this.

I'm going to go by Sunny. And I just wrote S-O-N-N-Y. And I told my friends, my family. I'm like, this is what I go by now. And I just kind of stuck.

And it's stuck for a very long time. Like, I, I didn't go back to Lisaong Jen until,

I think it was Tukun Birdie.

I was writing for an animated show in Netflix. I want to say that was maybe 2018. Mm. That I went back. But the reason I went back was, is full circle,

where I was, at that time, probably, or at 37 years old. And I was getting coffee at a local coffee shop. And, you know, they call your name based on your credit card name. Yes.

And again, just like the teacher in sixth grade, purchased my name. And these two, 30 something women next to me, just started laughing. Mm.

And I found myself hunched over, grabbing my coffee and food, and just kind of slinking out of there, ashamed. And I was like, I'm a grown adult.

Like, why am I doing that? Why am I slashed over? Like, I'm in sixth grade again. And, you know, luckily, Lisa Hannelwalt, who show her aunt to come birdie.

“I think we had already done the credits for that show.”

And I explained to her the reason why I wanted to change it. And she graciously went through some extra steps to allow me to go buy Lisa and Jen that year. In September, you could be the most awarded Asian writer director in prime time in me history.

And I'm just curious if this is something that you have been really sitting with and thinking through that you will make history. You have already made history to a certain extent. But all of these nominations put you in another category, and you're being yourself doing it.

Um, you know, I haven't really processed it. Uh, yeah, I don't think you can kind of be really processed season one awards really. Uh, I honestly just two weeks ago took amount of their boxes and put them on a shelf.

Where had you been keeping them? They just been sitting like in storage. Uh, I haven't really processed any of it, and maybe I think that's a good thing. Um, I think it can be kind of distracting,

honestly sometimes. I think there's just a lot of been a lot of things lately, you know, the most of which was my daughter just seeing her is the most life-affirming thing ever. And getting to the privilege of getting to tell stories

and having it connect on a deeper level. So yeah, I think in that sense it's nice to be all seen and accepted. I think that's all anyone's trying to do. What did your parents think of beef?

Oh, they, they're so proud, you know. Um, they're like the biggest beef fans. Um, yeah, you know, but you have the same time, like, it's funny like my dad texted me after watching the show and this season and he was like,

um, he was like, you know, the last, uh, the last scene was too long.

“Uh, you should have cut here and probably shortened this shot”

and it would have had more impact. I was like, that it's on the platform. I can't go back and edit it now. That's it's truly unhelpful. But sometimes parents can give good advice.

Yes, yes. But, you know, to that talk about the intermonologue, you know, it is, I am thankful for that because, like, on on set, like, if it weren't for that intermonologue, a lot of things would be slipping through the cracks.

Thank you. Thanks so much. Lee Sangjun is the creator of the Netflix series Beef. The latest season is up for 16 Emmy nominations. Coming up, TV critic David Biancoly reviews the Apple TV series Lucky. This is fresh air.

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On the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. This is fresh air. Marissa Stapley's crime novel Lucky.

“Was featured five years ago as a pick for actress Reese Wither Spoon's book club.”

Now Apple TV presents a new seven-part crime drama based on the novel. And Wither Spoon is one of its executive producers. On Yateler Joy of the Queen's Gambit stars in the title role, and the series features some very impressive co-stars. Our TV critic David Biancoly has this review.

The new Apple TV series Lucky is a crime drama that starts in mid-capere and almost dares you to keep up. The title character Lucky is a very shrewd resourceful con woman. She's played by An Yateler Joy, who showed just as much fiery intelligence as the chess prodigy in the Queen's Gambit, and in several standout roles since then. When we meet Lucky, she's out on the town in Las Vegas as Caesar's Palace,

celebrating with her husband Carrie, played by Drew Starky.

They're celebrating because they've just absconded with almost $10 million in cash,

gotten a room at the casino, and made plans to leave the country the next morning. But their crime is complicated because of some respective parental issues. Lucky's father, who's now in federal prison, skimmed that money from a powerful criminal family. He told Lucky where the money was hidden and to go get it. All her life, Lucky had been coached by her father to con people and trust no one,

like Tatum O'Neill and Paper Moon. That's her issue. Her husband's issue? The crime family from whom they stole the money are his parents. A ruthless couple determined to recover the money for themselves.

The night Lucky and Carrie grabbed the money and check into their room, he's happy, but she's fidgeting with a cigarette lighter and obviously nervous. You kept your dad's lighter? Yes. You okay?

Go ask me again tomorrow. Hey, come on, come on, come on. The harbour, so are we pulled it off? I don't know. Something feels off.

Once because you're hard-wired, you feel that way. Yes, there doesn't mean I'm wrong. Hey, book. Everything is going according to plan. Until it isn't.

You know what I think? You know what I'm going to say? Mm-hmm. You gotta get him out of your head. Yeah, maybe.

What's he saying? There's something I'm not saying. That lighter, by the way, is a recurring motif in this series.

“More than once, it's the secret weapon used by Lucky”

to get out of a tough situation. And the sound of the lighter being clicked even opens the theme song for this series. A new song written and performed by Fiona Apple that's one of the most energetic and perfectly suited TV theme songs

since the sopranos. And its energy is appropriate

because the first half of the first episode of Lucky

rolls out like one long chase sequence. Lucky was right. There was something she wasn't seeing. And she soon finds herself on the run. She's pursued by a stealing single-minded FBI agent,

reminiscent of Tommy Lee Jones pursuing Harrison Ford in the fugitive. Except this agent is a woman, played by Anjunu Ellis Taylor.

Here she is, descending upon Caesar's palace to begin the hunt.

“This is the bar. I'm special agent Rand, we spoke on the phone.”

Yes, agent Rand. So this is Agent Cruz. I'm an agent to take him to your security. Let him at access to your CCTV. Facial recognition system, everything for the last 24 hours.

We have strict limitations on the use of that software. Sis who says the state of Nevada. We can only access it to detect. And identify known sheets. And those who have committed gaming crimes.

We've come to see no sovereignty. Well, then you know. Cruz? Yes, ma'am.

I want footage from those cameras there.

Everything for 4pm yesterday. I want a room number in five minutes. If Mr. Bar or any of his employees give you any problems, hand-cuff him and put him in the back of the van. Thanks, ma'am.

Thank you, gentlemen. Ready? Watching Agent Rand and Lucky track in a Vadee each other is great fun. Agent Rand is a force of nature. And Taylor Joyce Lucky is TV's toughest, smartest female fugitive since Juno Temples dot on season five of Fargo.

Agent Rand and Lucky could carry the story alone. But about halfway into the premiere episode, the TV series ups the ante considerably. Jonathan Tropper, who adapted Marissa Stappley's novel for TV and wrote the opener, waits until then to unveil the actors playing the parents.

Lucky's dad is played by the always watchable Timothy Olifant.

And Carrie's mom is played by what a treat, a net-bending. She's fabulous. And when, as the mom Priscilla, she catches up with Lucky, the energy between those two is electric. Where's my money?

It's not your money. You and I never got along. Why is that? Because I never late to you. Lucky is seven episodes in total. The beauty of dramatic mini-series and limited series

is that even major characters can die at any time.

“It's the secret sauce of shows like Fargo”

and Lucky maintains that high level of tension and unpredictability. It's a wild ride as aggressively entertaining as that theme song by Fiona Apple. Speaking of which, let's end with a taste of that. Consider yourself lucky.

[Music] David B. and Kooley reviewed the new Apple TV series Lucky. If you'd like to catch up on interviews you've missed, like our conversation with New Yorker staff writer G. Tolentino. Check out our podcast. You'll find lots of fresh air interviews.

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Fresh air is executive producer, Sam Bricker. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our engineer today is Adam Stanachewski. Our interviews and reviews are produced and edited by Phyllis Meyers, Roberta Shorock, Ann Marie Baldonato, Lauren Crinsel,

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[Music] Nukes, what can't they do? Nuclear weapons are called a cure for the cancer of global conventional conflict on a new episode of R-We Doomed, the view within the U.S. government

“that the only way for peace is more nukes.”

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