Remembering Tim Curry

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We'll explain on Planet Money Summer School. Listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. This is Fresh Air, I'm David Bean Coolie.

Tim Curry, the British actor who starred in the original stage in movie versions of The Rocky Horror Show in the 1970s, died Tuesday.

He was 80 years old. In Rocky Horror, Curry played flamboyant extraterrestrial mad scientist Frank Inferter, who believed in sexual freedom and fluid sexual identities. "Come up to the lab and see what's on the slab." "I see you, Siva, with an anticip...

Patient."

“The film The Rocky Horror Picture Show, based on the hit London stage musical, became a cult hit,”

and in midnight movie showings, Tim Curry's aggressively outrageous starring role found a loyal new audience. Fifty years later, The Rocky Horror Picture Show still figures in some local midnight screenings around the country, and a revival of the original stage musical continues its Broadway run through February. And though it was Tim Curry's most famous role, it was by no means his only one. He also played Pennywise in the original ABC mini series version of Stephen King's It,

an uptight professor in the TV series Kinsey, co-starred in the movie's Annie, Clue and the Shout, joined the Muppets as Long John Silver in Muppet Treasure Island, and played King Arthur in the original Broadway production of Money Python's Spam a Lot. And he recorded several rock albums in the 1970s and scored one hit in England with "I Do The Rock,"

a song that was very much of its time, and its time was 1979. In addition to singing, Tim Curry also went into the recording studio as an actor, providing voices for such animated features as the Rugrats movie and the Wild Thornberries. After he suffered a serious stroke in 2012, which confined him to a wheelchair, Curry relied on voice acting for the bulk of his roles, the remainder of his career.

Terry Gross spoke to Tim Curry in 2005 when he was about to star in the Broadway musical "Money Python Spam a Lot" playing King Arthur. The show was directed by Mike Nichols. Here's a song from the cast recording. This is a self-help spoof called "Find Your Grail." When your life seems to drift, when we all need a lift, to your self, you won't fail. Find your Grail, find your Grail.

“I've been really proud to you, you must choose what you must choose.”

[Music] How did you get the part of King Arthur in Spam a Lot? Sort of sideways, really, I guess. I've known Eric Idol a long time, one of the original Python's, and he now lives in Los Angeles as do I, and so we see each other quite a bit. And in fact, the summer before last, we were hoping to do a film together, which he had written and was going to direct,

which was a kind of demolition of every Miramax movie ever made called "The Remains of the Piano."

And that never quite happened because the money. It's a good title, isn't it?

It's very good. I was going to play the Reverend Whoopsie. And Robin Williams was going to play Vanessa Reggrave in Howard's, and I loved his lines too. You, I haven't met you before, you shall have the tea cup. When I go, "No, no, you shall have the Grand Piano."

So that never happened, but she said, "I think it looks like we are finally going to get to do the musical version of Monty Python and the Holy Grail."

“And we're going to call it Spamilot, and first of all, I thought that was just terribly funny.”

But I also thought, "Well, you know, I'll believe it when it happens." And then suddenly, Mike Nichols was directing it, and they put David Hyde Pierce in Hank's area, and I, and a couple of other people on a play in from California, and we came into New York, and we sat down and read it with a bunch of other people from New York, some of whom are in the play. And it just went like gangbusters, and I guess the next day I was going to be King Arthur. So Spamilot incorporates some classic Monty Python bits in it, that I assume a lot of people in the audience probably know by heart,

"What kind of response do you get when you get to the classic parts?"

It's quite interesting, because the audience always sort of contains some core of Monty Python fans,

who see stuff coming, and react with great whips of joy, and then settle down to see it unfold. I mean, they're hugely welcoming, and then they really want to see it happen. I mean, happily they're not talking along with it, because that would need a spanking. But they love it, and they see it coming, and they are thrilled to see characters, and sketches that they recognize.

“You knew the mighty Python material, and the audience knows a lot of the mighty Python material, but do you know a lot of the early Nichols and May?”

I do. I do. I was always a fan, and so it was sort of very interesting for me to work with him.

He has a, first of all, every note that you ever get from Mike is preceded by that was wonderful, that was wonderful, one small thing. So you're given this enormous sort of sense of entitlement, and then something tiny and completely accurate is lodged like a little sort of Navajo arrow in your brain. And what is his great note, I think, because I was playing it pretty broadly at the beginning, because so much of it is like, something that we in England called pantomime and sort of is part of Vortival really.

And his first note, and, and recurring note to me is, yes, that's great, it's, you know, it's very funny. Now let's make it true.

“And I think that's his great gift to this material is that he's given it a great big sort of beating our theory and heart.”

And, and that's an extra dimension that you just sort of don't expect, and of course also makes it so much more interesting to play. Let's get back to Terry's 2005 interview with Tim Curry, the star of the Rocky Horror Picture Show died Tuesday at AJD. In Rocky Horror, he played Franken further, a mad scientist from another planet, self-described as a sweet transvestite from transsexual Transylvania. In this scene, he welcomes to his remote castle, a stranded couple seeking help. They're played in this 1975 film by future stars Barry Bostwick as Brad and Susan Serandon as Janet. Brad and Janet have entered the castle soaking wet, and Franken furters assistance have stripped them down to their underclothes.

As Frank looks them over, wickedly. Magenta, Columbia, gun-assist Rift Rath. I will entertain her. Brad mages? This is my fiance, Janet Bice. Oh, so thick. Well, nice. And what charming underclare is your bird health.

It's not often. We receive visitors here. Let alone offer them hospitality. All we wanted to do was to use your telephone, download a reasonable request, which you've chosen to ignore. I'm grateful. Come forcefully, Bob Brad. Such a perfect specimen of manhood.

You know, like so many other of your fans, I first saw you in the Rocky Horror Picture Show in the '70s.

And when you see somebody in a movie for the first time, it's sometimes hard to tell how good they are.

“You don't know, is this all they can do? Do they do other things too? Is this what they're really like?”

I don't know how much are they acting. And so, I saw you, I guess it's probably like the late '80s in Wise Guy, the TV series. And you played a kind of Phil Spectorish brilliant but crazy record producer. That's right. And a great, really terrific performance. And I think it's when I really got the picture. Wow, he's really good at doing all kinds of things. That's so nice. I mean, it's sort of important for me because, you know, that first performance that sort of introduced me to everybody.

We're so out there and so... I'll say, yeah. So kind of outrageous that, you know, I was a very quiet boy for a while. You know, just to make sure that people got it that, you know, that wasn't necessarily who I was.

Was that because of my first movie, you know?

That was your first movie. Yeah. How did you get the part?

“I got the part because I used to work a great deal at a theatre in London called the Royal Court.”

And I guess they have a little theatre upstairs with seats about 60 people. And I did breath there and I did a sort of... Roger Kippling show there and... And I guess the next show, I did a dreadful musical, a Marxist musical called "Give the Gaffers Time to Love You" with a director who kept saying, "Barry, the second act just simply isn't Marxist enough."

And that, of course, never even opened to the critics.

But the next show coming in was this other musical called "The Rocky Horror Show." And, um, and originally I played Frankenferter as though he was German. He was Dr. Frankenfuerter and everything was very interesting and so stupid. And then one day I heard a woman on a bus saying, "Do you have a house in time or a house in the country?" And I thought, "Yes, she should sound like the queen."

So, he should sound like the queen.

“But that's how it happened and then it just started in this tiny theatre, you know?”

And it just took off, like a sort of rocket. Did you like the kind of key horror films that it impart parodyed? Oh, absolutely. And I mean, it... It's brilliant, really. It was just, you know, it was really like reaching up a hand into the zeitgeist

and just grabbing, you know, 50s horror movies, "Sandra D." Comic books and 50s rock and roll and just hurling them all together. With the, you know, some fishnet tights thrown in. And the fishnet tights really, you know, came from a brilliant costume design, a cool sub-plane, who I'd worked with before actually.

A wonderful theatre in Scotland called Glasgow Citizen City, where we did a production of the maids, where I wore exactly that corset. The Jean-Claude. Yeah, the Jean-Claude's a large, and we bought the corset for three pounds off a barrow in the market. No, it has to go. And wore it back to front. That's funny if you were wearing it for like this transgressive playwright Janay.

And then, this apparent, absolutely. Absolutely. Well, there's probably nothing that can get you into character quickly, like black bikini briefs, fishnet stockings, the guarda belt, the corset, the whole thing. Well, absolutely. And that was a fairly late development, and I had no idea it was going to be like that.

You did, when you said to the part? No, no, no, I thought I'd be in a white lab coat, you know. So, how did? How did the whole thing look? I had it all of all for fun.

Well, it evolved because it was much funnier that way. And I mean, the great, I thought the great gag about, I mean, the way that we all looked was,

To just never think about it as drag, because it's not, it's just what people wear in Transylvania.

“And it's just what everybody wears in Transylvania, is it just get over it, you know?”

It's truck driver drag, it's not, it's not about some gang boop boop adub. It's just what they happen to wear. I think the thing I found most amazing about the whole phenomenon of Rocky Horror was watching like the 12 year olds outside the theater, parading around in their transvestite clothes. Because they were all, it was like all these 12 year olds outside the theater, imitating you in, in your get up.

And, and you had it just kind of add yourself, what, what is going on here? What did the 12 year olds make of it? I mean, are they going through some kind of gender thing? Or do they just love the movie? Like, what is this about? I think it's all of the above, actually.

I mean, I think first of all, they love the movie because it's daring,

to pretty much everybody was daring at the time, less daring now.

“To them, it's daring, and it's also, I think, you know, there are several reasons why it's endured the way that it has.”

It's a kind of right-to-passage now, I think. And actually, first of all, it's a guaranteed weekend party to which you can go with or without a date, and probably find one if you don't have one. And it's also, I think, a chance for people to try on a few roles for size. You know, figure out, help them maybe figure out their own sexuality.

I mean, I think that's probably taking it a little deeper than it needs to go, but I think it has had a useful purpose in that way. And I've certainly had some very interesting and moving male from people who have said, "You know, thanks for helping me figure out who I was." You know, and that's very nice.

Did you ever go to one of the midnight screenings back in the '70s? And watch the movie with the people who were reciting along and when they would make a toast on screen, people would like to throw toast at the screen. And the whole bit, it became an incredibly participatory experience for the people who came to see it time and time again. I did go, I went a couple of times, oddly enough, it started happening at the Waverly Theatre.

- In Manhattan. - On 6th Avenue, in the village. And ironically, I was living a block behind it on Jan Street. - Oh, you're kidding. - So I would see, on my way home, all these people. And you know, I got to know about it rather quickly because I was a neighbor. - Well. - And finally, I went to see it.

And in fact, I had to sort of call the theatre because, you know, you could never get in.

And I said, "You know, I'm in it." And I really love to come and see it and get it, and I fall. And the operator said, "You're the third, ten carried a cow this week." So finally, I showed up and they sort of believed me and took me in. And the word spread rather swiftly, and people were sort of coming up and touching me and running away and giggling.

And it was a very, very peculiar experience. And then finally, the Ashiraat, I don't know what you call them, really.

“That's what they call them in England, came and sort of drag me out of my seat and then answered, "I was an imposter and threw me out of the theatre."”

- Which is... - Well, you're funny, really. - Did you protest? - I actually had my passport on me, and I pulled it out. And I said, "Still think I'm an imposter and she said, "Almost a carrying. I'm so sorry. Please come back in." And I said, "I wouldn't dream of coming back in." And I saw it once, I saw it once on the strip in LA because I was doing a gig there with my band when I was making records.

And I took them up to the balcony to see it. And remember, my drama coming out and saying, "We don't have to dress up like that, no one." And I said, "Now you really don't, and I can't be either." But it was odd, I mean, it's a very peculiar experience. I mean, the first person to actually shout back in the theatre was David Bowie's first wife Angie.

- Really? - I remember when Bowie came and he brought this huge on to Rajan. And she was with him, and when Richard O'Brien was about to kill me, she shouted, "No, no, don't do it." And so I guess she was one of the first people to sort of do that. And Mark Shaman, who's sort of famous composer now,

was one of the first who actually took back in the wavyly. I think he began it here in New York. I'm not, of course, it's everywhere.

The actor died Tuesday at age 80. More of their conversation after a break, and will also revisit an interview with actress Ray C. Horn, who's nominated for an Emmy for her starring role in the TV series "Pluribus." I'm David Bowie and this is Fresh Air.

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Tim Curry, star of the Rocky Horror Picture Show, died Tuesday. He was 80 years old. We're remembering him by listening back to a conversation Terry had with him in 2005. Your father was a chaplain in the British Navy.

Yes.

“What did your parents think of your role in Rocky Horror?”

Well, he last was dead, because he died when I was 12. So he wasn't even aware that I was an actor even. I think my mother, my mother, who is really like one of those sort of entrepreneurs. I can't imagine what's going on.

You know, who always had a passion.

Since my first job in the 30, it was hair. And you were having naked in that, right? And I did appear naked in it. I think it was a relief to her that I actually was wearing clothes of any kind. At least you were covered by a corset in garters.

She was happily unaware that part of the character, particularly Frankenferter, it is most gracious, was based on her. It was actually... Well, it was sort of her telephone voice. Do you have any tattoos, Brad?

My sister, when she saw it, fell on the floor and said, you know, does she know? And I said, no, she has absolutely no idea. And please don't tell her. She thought it was very, very amusing and brought all her friends. So she was pretty hip lady, my mother, and she got it.

I mean, you know, astonishingly. She loved it. She didn't like it as much as the parents of pensants, which I didn't. Very lame, because the queen mother came to that. And that, you know, was the total seal of approval of my career.

And I would bet that she'd not... The queen mother did not go to her or Rocky Horror. I don't think she went to either. All their princes, Margaret, did come to Rocky Horror and had a wonderful time. Really?

And so did Princess Diana actually requested to meet me, because she was such a Rocky Horror fan. So did you ever meet Princess Diana? I did actually meet Princess Diana. And I was doing a production of love for love. And it was taken to Vienna for British Week.

And we played at the Berk Theatre, and Prince Charles and Princess Diana were the guests of honour. Which was when she said she very much wanted to meet me and said they've sort of put me at the end of the receiving line.

“And Prince Charles said, "I think I've seen you on television.”

Haven't I seen you on television?" I said, "Yes, I'm sure you've seen me on television." Yes, I think I thought I'd seen you on television. But Diana said, "You were in the Rocky Horror Show." And I said, "Yes, ma'am, I wasn't.

I was, but I'm sure that you haven't seen it." She said, "Oh, yes." She said, "It quite completed my education." She was a very funny girl. And a very beautiful one.

And sort of a very wicked smile came with that sentence. She was great fun. And the world is poorer without her.

How did that become such a central part of your work?

Well, the animation thing happened kind of by accident. A very nice man called Gordon Hunt, who's the father of Helen Hunt, the actress. And a wonderful director. It was directing animated cartoons at Hannibal Barbarra. And they were doing a series of Bible stories.

And he wanted me to play the snake. So I played the snake and had a lot of fun. And I said, "Look, when the turzo over I'm actually going to move to LA, and I'd love to do some more of this." Well, you know, at least audition me for things when you have them.

And he did, he was very faithful. And he would just say, "You know, come in and read and I'd come in and read." And I started doing a lot of animation and loving it. And the great thing about it, I mean, apart from just the fan of it, is that, you know, if you're in Los Angeles, waiting for movies,

it can get very dull. And you can just, you know, show up to an animation student. You don't have to look good, you don't have to shave or anything.

And you get to play all these people that you've never ever got to play in real life.

“So what are some of the voices you've done for these animations?”

I've all sorts of things. I did Captain Hook for Peter Pan and the Pirates. I did Nigel Thundberg for the Wild Thornbergs. Nigel Thundberg is sort of an authentic English explorer. I do Professor Calamitas in a circle of Jimmy Neutron,

who's a terrible rip-off of Truman Capote, basically. He's very, very tiny. You grew up in England, your father was a chaplain in the Navy. Were you religious when you were growing up? Rather not.

As preachers kids tend not to be, you know. I mean, my father was pretty chill about all of that. I mean, he wasn't Methodism in England. He's a lot more relaxed than it is in the States. It's not as forbidding or as Chile.

And he was a very liberal and very funny man. But, you know, I did Willy Nilly, show up to Sunday school morning and afternoon and went to hear him preach when he was on shore because he was quite often at sea.

And I spent my childhood in sort of various sort of naval bases until he died when I was quite young when I was 12. And we moved to South London and I went to boarding school.

“Did you have to go to church and did you sing a lot in church?”

Well, that was the great bonus. Because the Methodist Church has remarkable body of hymns. Largely, a great number of them by Charles Wesley. And so I sang in church from about nine to no six or seven. And I was, I was, you know, I was a real boy soprano

for, you know, until my voice changed. It changed a lot, didn't it? It did change quite a whole lot. I was very lucky because there was, I had a great music teacher who sent away to Westminster Coral School for exercises

when my voice started breaking because, you know, so often people with wonderful voice soprano voices end up with no mature singing voices at all. And I managed to make that transition happily. And it's funny when I was doing, I don't know,

that this isn't interesting. When we were doing Paris, it depends on it.

I had my first singing lessons really.

The lady who was doing them said, you know, we must work on your full set, and get your range up. And I said, I don't have a full set. And she said it nonsense, everyone has a full set. And I said, no, I really don't.

And she made me find one. And she suddenly had this revelation one day. And she said, well, you were boys soprano. And I said, yes, I, I wasn't.

“She said, hmm, you're in mourning for that sound, aren't you?”

And I realized that I was. I mean, it is of great sadness not to be able to make that extraordinary pure sound that you do make as a voice soprano. That's actually really interesting. Yeah.

It is. It's fascinating, isn't it? And I think I just, you know, cut off that alley. But you kept singing, didn't you? I kept singing, yes, absolutely.

So did you go to, like, the loud graph rock band kind of singing afterwards?

And, you know, I was singing sort of classical music, really.

But then, I guess, you know, the Beatles happened and it was all over. So, so what? That and Malboro, you know? Marbarsitz. It's funny because, like, I actually, yes.

I actually quit smoking a year ago. And it was fascinating because within three weeks, my voice went back up at 10 and a half. And I remember, and I had the voice that I remembered myself singing in when I was 19 or 20. And it's very odd.

And it's a great warning to anyone to stay away from the demon tobacco. Stupid drug that it is.

“Did you always know that you had that ability to mimic?”

Yes, I think, you know, you have it all you've done.

Hank, who is there in this show, is an absolutely dazzling mimic and do anything. I can do anybody. You sort of have any arrow you've done, I think. And I think, you know, a lot of it has to do with amusing other children when you're young and, you know, getting out of being hit.

Right. Was that effective for you? I think it's effective for all childhood comedians. I think it's, you know, the roots of a great deal of comedy. Tim Curry, speaking to Terry Gross in 2005.

The star of the Rocky Horror Picture Show died Tuesday. He was 80 years old. After a break, the Emmy Awards are coming up next month.

“We'll revisit an interview with Ray C. Horn,”

who's nominated for her starring role in the new Vince Gilligan series, "Plerbus." This is fresh air. How do products end up on big box cells? Well, we have plenty of money, pitch deep on it money, board game. We're trying not to think how much of a big deal it is and how much work has gone into it.

It's really big. Is it helpful if I remind you how big it is? It's sort of the whole thing. We go inside the minds of the people who decide what goes on store shows. Listen to plenty of money on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.

Okay. So you're driving to work or you're on a walk or you're at the gym or whatever. And you just need to clear your head. That's the perfect time to hit the play button on NPR's all-songs considered.

“It's not the news, it's not work or whatever else is weighing you down.”

It's just a good time with good friends and great tunes. Listen to all songs considered every Tuesday in the NPR Music podcast. This is fresh air. The Emmy Awards are next month and among the nominees is Ray C. Horn. The former co-star of Better Call Saul is nominated for her starring role in Pluribus.

The new Apple TV series created by Vince Gilligan. Gilligan also co-created Better Call Saul and wrote Pluribus with C. Horn in mind. It's a wonderful series and she's wonderful in the central role.

In the powerful premiere episode, she was on screen almost the entire time,

carrying much of the drama without dialogue. Pluribus is a thrill ride that's the most fun if you don't know where it's going. But if you've seen it and want to know more, Terry Gross spoke with Ray C. Horn last year about the series. She plays Carol, a writer of fantasy romance novels whose returning from a book reading event. She's accompanied by her manager and life partner Helen and they stop at a local bar.

Everything seems normal, but suddenly everyone at and outside the bar, including Helen, has a sudden seizure. Only Carol is unaffected as some people drop and die while others become calm and happy and speak to Carol in unison. Panicked, Carol finds her way home and turns on the TV for an explanation. The only channel that still works is C.Span, where a man standing behind the White House podium, not the president because he's dead, explains that a medical advance of extraterrestrial origin

has connected most people on Earth through a sort of psychic glue. That's creepy enough, but what's even creepier is that the man on TV is addressing Carol directly and telling her that her immunity may be only a temporary condition. Rest assured, Carol, we will figure out what makes you different. Figure it out why.

So we can fix it. So you can join us. Carol, you still there? You said my life was mine. It is, 100%.

So what happens when I say no?

Carol.

Racy Juan, welcome to Fresh Air.

I love this series. I loved you on Better Call Saul. It's really such a pleasure to have you on the show. Oh my gosh, thank you. It is such a pleasure to be here.

Thank you. The premise of this series is sci-fi. But the show itself is asking so many questions about human nature. Like, what is happiness?

“Is it happiness if there is no longer a larger meaning to your life?”

And is being an individual with your own temperament and thoughts? Is that more valuable than this happiness? And is anger lethal or is it good to let out your anger and resist? What you think is wrong. Maybe we'll find out some answers to those questions in many other questions later.

But I just want people to know there's some really interesting thoughts in this. Thank you. And did you find yourself asking what is happiness as you made the series? Yeah, I definitely was asking myself a lot of those questions throughout the series. And we had amazing conversations among the crew and the cast.

You know, some of these late night shoots and even on weekends.

“Stuff is like, well, would you choose what's best for the individual versus what's best for the community?”

As a whole, I personally think I would absolutely be team Carol as far as arguing, you know, the necessity and the positives of individual. Thinking and independent thinking. For one thing, a big thing that came up for me was the fact that this group think no matter how intelligent and how peaceful. One of the ideas of happiness and joy, which maybe is slightly different, is being surprised by things. Whether it's wonder growing up as a kid and hopefully still has an adult or a giant belly laugh.

And if you cannot be surprised, there's never going to be any new art.

There's never going to be a joke that you haven't heard. There's never going to be surprise behavior that makes you laugh. And that's just such a source of joy for me that I just can't imagine that contentment is the same as happiness. So the character in Plurbus was originally written for a man by Vince Gilligan. And then he decided to rewrite it for you.

How did that happen? I don't believe there were scripts, you know, with the male character. And then he went back and re-wrote. I think he said he was. Ideas will pop and his head sometimes questions without answers and one of them was what would happen if you woke up in the whole world was.

Obsequious the whole world was willing to do whatever you wanted to him give you anything you want. And it was a male character and he has said that.

It's just because that second nature to him that he is a man and he has written male protagonist.

And then I don't know the exact like shift that happened or where, but I didn't know about it until after we had wrapped all of our call Saul. But he said it was during.

“I think towards the end of season one of better call Saul that he was just watching me work and had talked to me a lot about the way I work as well as watching me perform.”

And decided that I'm stuttering because it's hard to say this because I'm I'm floored by the compliment and the flattery to put it mildly and struggle saying it about myself, but he said that he. I realize like I have to write something for her. I have to I need to make sure that I do a project with her and actually wouldn't these concepts that I'm noodling with wouldn't they work even better if they were her. And he knew that he also wanted to play with tone and take wild swings as far as like it could be darkly comedic or it could be darkly psychological sometimes it's going to you know go between back and forth.

And I was impressed at my ability to do those things so hard for me to say about myself. That can be the title of this episode. Really see you on Bragg the better. Yeah I don't know I listen I've had to sit next to him in interviews when he's saying it and I'm just I'm just my face is one giant tomato red ball when he's saying it, but but I'm certainly very thankful for it.

billionaire Mark Cuban has stared into the belly of the beast of America's health care system.

I mean it's so bad you can go through a long list of really quality hospitals and they don't know their costs. So can Medicare for all be a solution we take a hard look at the cost of the program along with US health care itself. By this it hear more stories from the indicator from planet money on the NPR app.

“Six months that's how long it has been since the US and Israel went to war with Iran.”

Where are we diplomatically economically militarily?

There's a lot changing in the shadow of this uncertainty about what happens with Iran. Not and more the week's big national security news on sources and methods you can listen on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. This is fresh air. Let's get back to Terry's 2025 interview with Ray C. Horn, star of the Vince Gilligan TV series Pluribus. At this point they were discussing better call Saul the series Co-written by Gilligan and co-starring Ray C. Horn.

“Here's Terry introducing a clip from better call Saul.”

See Horn played Kim Wexler, a lawyer who marries Jimmy McGill, an unethical lawyer who gets involved with a Mexican cartel played by Bob Oden Kirk. The series lasted six seasons and while shooting an episode in that final season Bob Oden Kirk suffered a heart attack and collapsed on set. He had just completed shooting an intense scene with C. Horn that we're about to hear an excerpt of. It's the scene in which Lalo, a cartel member, had just killed a colleague of Jimmy and Kim's Howard Hamlin played by Patrick Fabian.

And the murder was in Jimmy and Kim's apartment right in front of their eyes.

“Their frozen and fear as Lalo then instructs Jimmy to go to the home of drugs our Gus Fring and kill him while Kim waits behind with Lalo.”

Jimmy insists that Kim be the one to go because he thinks it might be even more dangerous for Kim to stay with Lalo. I know I know you're a lawyer and not a killer but look you can do this okay this guy he's a house cat black medium hide short hair glasses. You kind of looks like a librarian but don't be fooled even a house cat can scratch. So that's it heart parts over now you put out the camera same principle as the gun point and shoot take a picture one where I can see the face. You face clearly and then you bring it back here where me and Mrs. Goodman will be waiting for you and then you're done.

I'd say it's about a 20 minute drive over there 20 minutes back maybe 10 minutes to do the job. Let's call it an hour all together so you're back here in an hour or center what she should do it. This guy the house cat he looks through his people in the middle of the night he sees me. Maybe he gets his gun maybe he calls the cops either way that door stays shut but he sees a woman she looks like she's in distress maybe her car broke down. The door for her wouldn't you stop stop yeah but she's really clever I don't know she's gonna stick to the plan she will no cops you know she will.

No look this doesn't even make any sense I I've never shot I got before I've never even held one like I have to me what are you doing.

You know she's the best choice no I'm not I can't I can't I can't do it you know she can be. I don't know I'm not just stop let's just stop it that was a scene from better call Saul right before the star Bob Oden Kirk had his heart attack were you on set with him when this happened. Yes so Jimmy and I Bob and I are now on being held captive on the couch and. It's been shooting the scene for maybe the about 10 hours and they tell actors when it's a big turn around meaning there's enough time to go to your trailer because this is a lot of equipment that's got to be moved it's not a quick thing but we didn't go to our trailers which is another like thank God he didn't if Bob had gone to his trailer.

He would have been dead by the time they knocked on the door and that would be that no one would have even known he would have just passed out so we went down to.

Also on his exercise bike which he would do to stay just kind of alert instead of getting sleepy after hours and hours of shooting which did not cause the heart attack I have to say that his his.

“Rebound from his heart attack was because he was in the best shape of his life from training for his film nobody.”

But he and Patrick and I are just laughing and giving off and then Bob got off the bike and looked like he was going to faint. So we ran to catch him so his head wouldn't hit the concrete floor. And then we realized oh this is this looks like either seizure a stroke or cardiac arrest all of which we need medical attention and so we started. Screaming for help and it took a beat a horrifying terrifying beat and eventually a set medic was there a different set medic that had just started. Then Rosa a strata came over and and it turned out that they couldn't get his heart to start and they needed a defibrillator and Rosa ran to her car and got it and they brought it back and they were able to revive him and then and then the ambulance came but yeah Patrick and I were.

We wouldn't let go of him either they just kept having to tell us like yeah yeah can't be holding on to him while he's being electric. But that was that was it's very hard to let go of your friend for a second in that moment. You have such vivid memories of this because like when I interviewed Bob Oden curve he had no memory of it gets none he has not and so we went back to shoot that see we'd have finished that shoot months later. And Bob has no memory of the entire day not just the event but the entire day and they showed him footage so that he would know where he was sitting and I go.

“Remember now do you remember that day because we were shooting this whole day and he's he looks at me and laughing and he said it is like I am watching.”

And in posture in my body do a scene that I have never done in my entire life.

I was like what a shame. Feeling that must have been isn't that crazy. It's just like yeah he has no memory of it at all we had to tell him multiple times after after he woke up in the hospital. Racy Horn star of Pluribus speaking to Terry Gross in 2025. Pluribus is nominated for 18 Emmys including one for C Horn is outstanding lead actress in a drama series.

The Emmys are scheduled for September 14th.

“On Monday show why do Americans spend so much time waiting on hold in waiting rooms filling up paperwork?”

During the list Annie Lowry calls at the time tax and she says the difficulty is often the point. She talks about who designed the system, who profits when you give up and what it would take to get our time back. Her new book is The Time Tax. Hope you can join us. Fresh air executive producer is Sam Brighard. Our technical director and engineer is Audrey Benson with additional engineering support from Julian Hertzfeld and Adam Stanichewski.

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