The Roy Cohn Playbook, from McCarthyism to Trump

All U.S. citizens abroad may request an absentee ballot to vote in the 2026 election.

“Visit registerabroad.com to get started.”

This is fresh air, I'm Terry Gross. Back when Donald Trump was getting his start as a real estate developer in his father's business, wanting to branch out from apartments in the boroughs to more ambitious buildings in Manhattan, and trying to find a place for himself among wealthy New Yorkers, celebrities, and powerbrokers. His lawyer and mentor was the infamous Unethical Roy Cohn.

Cohn's rules became Trump's rules, writes my guest, Kai Bird, and his new biography of Cohn called American Scoundrel. Kai Bird also co-wrote the definitive biography of Robert Oppenheimer,

“called American Prometheus, which was the basis of Christopher Nolan's Oscar-winning film”

Oppenheimer. Early in Roy Cohn's career, he prosecuted Julius and Ethel Rosenberg on charges of espionage. They were sent to the electric chair. In the 1950s, when Senator Joe McCarthy led the subcommittee then investigated and smeared alleged communists and gay people ruining their careers and sometimes their lives, Cohn was the subcommittees legal counsel. This, in spite of Cohn being a closeted gay man himself, Cohn moved on to a more lucrative

career as the lawyer for leaders of New York's crime families. He was connected to several prominent New York politicians and helped Ronald Reagan get elected president. Cohn was indicted by the Justice Department on three occasions of bribery, perjury and extortion,

and other white collar crimes, and was always acquitted. But in 1986 after being accused of bribery

and fraud, he was despart. This was just a few weeks before he died of AIDS, which he always denied having, claiming it was liver cancer. Bird says, Cohn's story is important because of what it teaches us about the fragile character of American democracy. Kai Bird, welcome to fresh air and congratulations on the biography. You say that Roy Cohn's rules became Trump rules. Now there were a couple of Cohn rules that became Trump rules that I was familiar with, like never admit,

you were wrong, denied, denied, denied, denied, and then when there are charges against you,

“delayed, delayed, delay. Can you think of an example where all three were used by work Cohn?”

Yeah, during the time when in the 60s when he was indicted three times, Roy Cohn delayed the courtroom proceedings as often as he could. He denied the allegations. He attacked the judge in particular by name. You know, he followed these rules throughout his life, and he was a routine rule breaker. You know, the rules were for the little guy, not for him. So did all of that help him get off on those charges? Well, the evidence was really quite overwhelming. I argue in the

book along with my co-author, my wife Susan Goldmark, that he was partly just damn lucky. You know, on one trial, a jurors father suddenly fell dead, and the judge felt compelled to declare a mistrial. On another occasion, Roy's own lawyer suffered a heart attack in the courtroom, just as he was about to give the summation. And the trial judge was going to declare a recess, and Roy steps forward and says, Judge, I'll do my own summation. And he did, and this was

two as advantage, of course, because he had not chosen to take the witness stand. So he hadn't been subjected to cross-examination, but he was allowed over two days to spend seven hours defending himself, and he did so brilliantly, and apparently got some of the jurors weeping, and they acquitted him 12 to 0. Okay, other rules like Sue, countersue, or threatened to,

and basically said the message that whether you win or lose, it's going to be a headache if you don't

give in. So this was routine, you know, he left unpaid debts all over Manhattan for little things, like dry cleaners, his liquor bills, limousine bills, and when sued in small claims court, you know, he would delay delay, and eventually the people he owed money to would give up, and or settle for a dime on the dollar, and he was shameless. So what lessons do you think, President Trump learned from Oricon about paying bills and paying taxes?

negotiating tactic to delay delay in order to bargain down the bill and question. And famously,

Donald Trump, we don't know what taxes he's paid and the little we do know indicate that he is somehow managed to find tax shelters and pays very little comparatively speaking. Another Oricon rule, don't tell me the law, tell me the judge, because he knew how to like which judge would be

“favorable to him or which judge he could manipulate. I assume that's what he meant.”

Yes, exactly. And Roy grew up, you know, the son of a judge, a respected judge, Albert Cohn, from the Bronx, pointed during the Roosevelt administration, a liberal Democrat,

but he grew up being introduced by his father to all sorts of lawyers and judges.

And when he became a lawyer himself at the age of 20, he, you know, cultivated other judges as friends. And again, he was very transactional, even as a young man. He would do favors for these people and then, you know, knock on their door to ask for a favor and return. Well, Trump kind of did him one better on, don't tell me the law, tell me the judge, because as president, he's appointed judges. He's appointed Supreme Court justices. And some of those people,

“I mean, they've ruled on things that Trump has done. Can you talk about that?”

No, a little bit, oh, the head of the Justice Department was Trump's personal lawyer. Yes, yeah. Well, Roy would have approved. And this is sort of the most insidious and long-lasting legacy of Roy's. You know, he, he was a lawyer, but he really didn't care about the law. He practiced his law over the phone. He tried to avoid taking any notes or records. And he taught this, too, to Donald Trump. You don't leave a paper trail.

Don't leave a paper trail. It's evidence. And so you see, even to this day, Trump gets annoyed when people start taking notes. He just likes to do everything verbally and over the phone and to wing it. So, Trump got a lot from Roy Kohn.

“The favors, opening doors, legal representation, what did Roy Kohn see in Donald Trump?”

Because Donald Trump was not a name yet. He was not known yet when Roy Kohn started representing him. Well, you know, Roy loved just doing favors for influential people. And he told his good friend, the gossip columnist, Cindy Adams, that this young Donald Trump was going to go someplace and maybe even to the White House someday. And you know, I had four telephone interviews with Trump about Roy Kohn. Very strange interviews that may be 10 minutes each.

And in my first phone conversation, you know, it's a cold call. I just, I was given a number

and Donald Trump picked up. Hello? And he had no idea who I was. I said I was doing a biography of Roy Kohn and he says, "Oh, that's terrific." That's terrific. He was such a wonderful man. He was a great lawyer. We won a lot of cases together. He went on and on, effusibly, about Roy. He misses him, genuinely. And I think they really were friends. Do you think he thought it was going to be a very positive portrayal?

I don't know what he was thinking. But obviously he has a very positive view of Roy Kohn. He's not ashamed to be associated with him. And this is sort of a mystery to me because I can't understand how anyone could read this book and read the stories about what Roy did and some of the despicable things he did and see, you know, that it's backed up with 1300 footnotes and not be sort of ashamed. When Senator Joe McCarthy in the 1950s,

headed the subcommittee that was investigating alleged communists and gay people and ruining many careers and ruining many lives along the way. Roy Kohn was the subcommittees legal counsel. How did it get that position? His friends Walter Winshal and George Sokolsky to prominent

time of course, you know, Roy even though he was very young. He was only 26 at the time.

He'd already prosecuted the Rosenberg case. He'd already prosecuted another famous alleged communist spy case called the William Remington case. He had taken on prosecution of alleged communist at the United Nations. He was an expert in this field and his only rival for the job was eronically enough Robert F. Kennedy, the young future attorney general and Joe McCarthy for

“one reason or another chose Roy Kohn, I think, because he had more experience and yet Bobby”

Kennedy was selected as a deputy counsel. And it's important to note that they immediately

took a strong disliking to each other. At one point they almost got into a fist fight. And Roy later explained that, you know, he believed, ardently believed that the prosecutions that he suffered through the three indictments in the 1960s were brought against him by Robert Morgan Thao on the instructions of attorney general Ben Bobby Kennedy and that it was a political vendetta. What were Kohn's main contributions to the McCarthy subcommittee, which like really

“smeared a lot of people? Yeah, you know, Joe McCarthy, I think was largely a politically speaking”

an empty vessel. He wasn't really an ideologue. He stumbled into this anti-communist witch hunt and investigations sort of on a whim, but Roy came to it with a passion and an expertise and he really became Joe McCarthy's brains. You know, McCarthy was, well, he was a functioning alcoholic at that point. And Roy really guided him and they were very successful in launching sort of what was really a political campaign against the newly inaugurated Eisenhower administration.

You know, Roy was hired in early 1953 and he was beginning to go after Dwight Eisenhower

“himself, the former general, the current president. And a Republican. And a Republican for not being”

a Republican enough and for not being anti-communist enough. During the McCarthy era, Roy Kohn interrogated witnesses. And what was his technique? Well, he was brutal. He was relentless. He openly asked male government civil servants about their sexual orientation and their, you know, have they ever had relations with a man. And, you know, some of these civil servants testified openly and then were fired. Some tried to take the Fifth Amendment. You know, he destroyed the

lives of hundreds, if not thousands of people. And meanwhile, Roy Kohn was totally in the closet leading this real double life, yet having people fired because they were gay, whether they were, you know, out or in the closet. I guess that didn't bother him. It did not bother him. For all of his life, he was in the closet. And he was particularly in the closet in the 1950s, you know, as a public figure, you know, someone who the age of 27 during the Army of McCarthy hearings is images on the

cover of Time magazine. He knew that as a public figure, he could never admit to this. That would

be the end of his career. But it was certainly a factor in his life. And he managed to sort of lead a double life. You know, back in New York, he during the day was a straight, heterosexual, powerful lawyer to the mafia. So, and at night he was cruising gay bars, two of which he himself owned. So, in terms of, you know, trying to outmen who were gay or smearing them because they were gay, for people working in the government, the argument that McCarthy and Roy Cohen used was that

if he thought that he could be blackmailed? I think he was, I think he was supremely confident

“in his ability to leave a double life. So, no, he had no fear. He was brazen in the 50s. But also,”

you know, later in the 70s, he publicly resolved, of course, the gay community in the 1970s and 80s, just despised Roy Cohen. They knew exactly who he was. They knew he was gay. They saw him in their venues in gay bars in New York and they, you know, they heard the rumors too about the sex parties that he organized. He was like, he was so brazen in his hypocrisy. It's astonishing. Did Trump know that Roy Cohen was gay? Oh, Trump definitely knew that he was gay.

You know, in the '70s, you know, when studio 54 opened up in '77, Roy took Donald Trump to

“studio 54 frequently. And in the '80s, Roy was sort of more out. He was never publicly out.”

But, you know, he was surrounded in his law firm by young gay men. Anyway, so Donald Trump knew and at one point, Roy called up, Trump to ask for a favor for one of his boyfriends who is dying of AIDS, in fact. And asked if he could be housed in Donald Trump's hotels. And Trump arranged for it. And the young man stayed there for a few or four months. And when he died, Trump sent a bill to Roy. Do you see any connection between Roy Cohen being closeted and going

after gay people during the McCarthy era? And Trump's anti-DEI, anti-LGBTQ approach? Yes. When they first met, it was when Trump was being sued by the feds for racial discrimination in housing and Queens in their apartments owned by the Trump organization. And it was very

“blatant. It was an open and shut case. And of course, Roy famously said, "Oh, you should fight it."”

You know, you should sue the feds. Let's hold a press conference and announce a $100 million

defamation suit against the federal government. You know, it was a nonsense suit. And it was dismissed within two months. But Trump loved this. And Roy was sort of a social racist. Roy used all sorts of terrible slurs. One, he picked up from his mother, Dora, who used the Yiddish slur for black. And he himself, though, he was Jewish. He used similar slurs about Jews. I mean, Roy's sort of politics on these kinds of issues, affirmative action. He opposed. He thought this was

inappropriate and wrong. And that it was discrimination against white. His politics are very similar to what we see in Donald Trump today. You know, the politics is really interesting in that you see Roy cone in the 60s and 70s. He's very resentful of intellectuals. He's a graduate of Columbia University, but he hates the Ivy League schools. He favored hiring young law associates who were not Ivy Leagueers. He was suspicious of immigrants. He was

anti-black. He was an isolationist. He wanted America to be America first. You know,

well, this is all the politics that we see today in the Trump administration. It's the same politics of resentment. And Trump too went to an Ivy League school and like Roy cone was born into a high profile family with money. No, absolutely. So there are a lot of parallels. Well, let me reintroduce you again because we need to take another break. My guest is Kai Bird, author of the new book, American Scoundrel. It's a biography of Roy cone. We'll be right back

after a short break. I'm Terry Gross, and this is fresh air. This message comes from glass half full with Craig Melvin. In this podcast, the today's show anchor talks with A-Listers and Athletes

half full wherever you get your podcasts. Up first from NPR News is your way to slow down a fast-moving

world and make sense of it, which is just what tech leaders say they need right now. One of the big stories this week is that tech leaders say they want to slow down AI development. Also, the latest fighting in the Middle East could push oil prices even higher. Start your day with

“what you need to know on up first. Listen, on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts.”

Hey, it's me Peter Segel, host of Wingway Don't Tell Me. It's leaf peeping seasons. So when a peeper weekly news quiz while you're at it, we got comedians, celebrities and games to help laugh about the week's news and you can listen while you're spicing your pumpkins, whatever people do. Listen every week to wait wait don't tell me and the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. How do products end up on big buckshows? Well, we have planted money, pitch deep

planet money, board game. I'm trying not to think how much of a big deal it is and how much work has gone into. It's really big. Is it helpful if I remind you how big it is? It's sort of the whole thing. We go inside the minds of the people who decide what goes on store shelves. Listen to planet

“money on the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. This is fresh air. I'm Terry Gross.”

Let's get back to my interview with Kai Bird, author of the new book, American Scoundrel. Roy Cone's Dark Journey from Joe McCarthy to Donald Trump. In the 50s when Senator Joe McCarthy led the subcommittee that investigated and smeared alleged communists and gay people, Cone was the subcommittees legal counsel. He went on to become the lawyer for leaders of New York's crime families. He was connected to wealthy New Yorkers and power brokers

and used those connections to get favors, including favors for Donald Trump. He did his best to avoid paying bills and taxes and found ways to hide his money from the feds. Cone was indicted by the Justice Department on three occasions of bribery, perjury and extortion,

another white collar crimes, and was always acquitted. But in 1986 after being accused of bribery

and fraud, he was disbarred. Just a few weeks later, he died of AIDS, which he always denied having, saying it was liver cancer. So after Joe McCarthy was pressured to fire Roy Cone when Roy Cone was the legal counsel for McCarthy's subcommittee that was really active in the witch hunt against alleged communists. Roy Cone then went on to do other things. He became a divorce lawyer for very wealthy people, and he represented leaders of the five mafia families of New York.

What kind of cases did he take? Well, he represented, for instance, John Gotti, Teflon Don. Mafia Don, who one day in the early 70s, walked into a bar in Staten Island with two of his associates, walked up to an Irish Mafia, also from a different clan, obviously, and confronted this man, and held him down, and one of his associates pulled a gun and point blank fired into his head and killed him. This was done in front of 20 witnesses in a bar. John Gotti fled. He was eventually

arrested, and Roy Cone became his lawyer. And in the end, Roy got John Gotti off on manslaughter charges, not murder. He pleaded it down, and he got him a four-year sentence. John Gotti served only two and a half years, and got out, and then proceeded to go on to a worse crime. He killed another Mafia, so in order to sort of climb up the ladder himself. And this was due to Roy. How did the relationship between Donald Trump and Roy Cone change as Trump became more famous

and more powerful? Yeah, now in the beginning, the power imbalance was quite evident. Roy was the

older man and the more powerful. But as the years rolled by, the relationship sort of evolved, and Roy became more of sequvious to Donald Trump, and you know, he paid more attention to Donald's needs than the reverse. But there was a genuine friendship there. And one thing that Roy did for

“Donald Trump that I think is overlooked is, before he died, he went to his old buddy from Horace”

Man's School. Sineu House, the publisher of Condy Nass magazines and the owner of Random House,

Donald Trump to do a memoir. This is how the art of the deal came about. And that book was published

“after Roy died, but it became a national bestseller. And it virtually turned this”

very parochial New York celebrity developer into a national figure, prominent businessman, as such. And of course, that, as we know, led to the TV show, the apprentice. And that led to Donald Trump launching a political campaign for the presidency. So there was a direct connection between all of that, and it starts with Roy Cohen's relationship with Sineu House. Roy Cohen got AIDS early in the AIDS epidemic. Yes. So how did that change

Donald Trump's relationship with Roy Cohen? Well, Trump, when he learned that Roy was probably dying of AIDS, he began by all accounts to sort of keep his distance. He began to

take less relied less on Roy Cohen's legal advice and went to other lawyers. But he never broke

with him. And in fact, to his credit, he invited him down to Mara Logo soon after he acquired that new estate in Florida. And hosted a fabulous dinner, and there were many toasts to Roy Cohen. And at the end of the dinner, when it was all over, Trump apparently told his staff to take the silverware and clean it and peroxide. Well, let me reintroduce you again. If you're just joining us, my guest is Kai Bird, author of the New Book American

Scoundrel, Roy Cohen's dark journey from Joe McCarthy to Donald Trump.

“We'll be right back. This is fresh air. Hey, what's your problem?”

No, seriously. Are your grocery bills too high? Are you spending too much time on your phone? Maybe you're searching for a new job, or you're trying to figure out how to set boundaries with your family. Whatever's on your mind, life kit has you covered with three episodes every week on health, money, mental health, and so much more. Listen to the life kit podcast in the NPR app, or wherever you get your podcasts. On NPR's wildcard podcast,

actress Julian Anderson says she's looking forward to getting old. There is part of

me that has always slightly fantasized about being in a home.

Watch or listen to that wildcard conversation on the NPR app,

“YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts.”

This is fresh air. Let's get back to my interview with Kai Bird, author of the New Book American Scoundrel, Roy Cohen's dark journey from Joe McCarthy to Donald Trump. Cohen was Donald Trump's lawyer and mentor. Because one of Roy Cohen's rules was like, don't leave a paper trail. He didn't leave a paper trail. That's not good for a biographer like you.

So you had to find, yeah, you had to find like alternate means. You had the FBI files that you over to cad after suing. You had like some notes from other people's work. Jeremy Strong who played Roy Cohen in the movie The Apprentice, which was about the relationship between Trump and Roy Cohen. He turned over his research to you, but you also found that Michael Stepp from REM had an archive of Roy Cohen stuff that he bought at auction. What was in that that was

of use for you and your biography? Yeah, that was a surprise. We had no idea the extent of what Stepp had. And so we reached out to him and eventually met him in at a studio and lower Manhattan. And he took us inside and put three boxes on a desk of what he called Roy Cohen memorabilia that he had picked up at an auction house. And we opened the boxes and there are 150 family photographs, childhood pictures, two copies of his last will and testament. A 220 page unpublished

manuscript of his of a memoir that he was trying to write. And a little things like a silver cigarette box engraved to Roy Cohen from Jean and Joe McCarthy. Anyway, you know, biographers go on a treasure hunt and occasionally they find treasure. And you just have to keep relentlessly knocking on doors and talking to people. And this was particularly difficult because Roy, you know,

So there are no there's no private archive. So one of the photos and I can't remember if

“whether this was in Michael Stepp's collection or you found it someplace else. But Robert”

Mabel Thorpe, who started off doing like celebrity photos and then ended up doing a lot of very controversial photos of gay men often like engaged in a sexual act. And this was a huge controversy because he had some funding from the NEA and National Endowment for the Arts. And that was part of the whole controversy about federal funding for the arts and what should be allowed to be funded. But anyhow, so the Mabel Thorpe photo of Roy Cohen, Roy Cohen was looking

just kind of like angry and threatening in it, right? Oh, yeah, it's a frightening photo. It's an image of Roy looking straight into the camera with just his face. And you see nothing else

“of his body. No hands, nothing. And his face is sort of floating in a sea of blackness.”

He looks like Satan or something. But it's a powerful photo, a piece of art.

And when I first saw that photo, I said, "Man, that's the cover." And I reached out to the Mabel Thorpe Foundation. But they very quickly decided that they could not license this photo because of the political nature of our book and the fact that it might jeopardize their non-tax profit status. And you know, I was outraged. I thought this is a terrible decision, a terrible reflection on of maplethorpe of all people who was himself a victim of first amendment

controversies. And so I appealed and wrote a strong email, suggesting this was like bending the knee

and anticipation. Anyway, we lost. So we had to scramble and find another photographer who had taken a photo in 1981. And it's a fabulous photo, but it's not what I originally wanted. So because the maplethorpe photo showed an angry mean expression on a close-up of Roycone's face, it reminded me of a photo that Trump seems to really like of himself where he has a scallal on his face. Yes, that's his official White House portrait, the scalloline Trump. And he takes it directly from Roy,

Roy loved to be depicted by artists and photographers as sort of tough mean and ugly. You know, he actually had a sense of humor about himself. He could be self-deprecating. So he once said to someone that he had a problem with all these photographers taking these images of himself that were unflattering. But then he walked by a mirror and he understood. Yeah, but you know, this is the image that he wanted to project. He wanted to be fearsome.

“And I think Trump himself routinely in his office in Trump Tower,”

he would point to a photo on the wall of Roycone and said, you know, would you rather deal with him if he was in a tough negotiation? And the image is, you know, a scalloline Trump. Because Roycone was such a hypocrite when it came to homosexuality, because he was closeted, but attacked gay people during the McCarthy era and ruined the lives of a lot of gay people as a result, are you surprised that nobody ever publicly outed him as a hypocrite?

Well, we write in one chapter at the tail end of the book about Richard DuPont, gay man who became a business partner of Roy's and was at one point one of his lovers, but Richard DuPont had a business venture in Manhattan that Roy became a partner of, and they had a falling out Roy sort of sold the property out from under Richard. And Richard DuPont went on a campaign of revenge, and he specifically tried to publicly out him,

publishing a magazine, devoted with articles, devoted to Roycone describing his private life with cartoons, depicting Roy and sex acts. It was, you know, an outrageous

used white chalk to say Roycone is, so eventually, he harassed him. He would appear at airports

about to get on a plane and suddenly he told that by the airline that someone had called up and canceled this preservation. Well, Richard DuPont was doing this. And eventually Roy complained to evolve people, Robert Morgan Thow, the New York District Attorney, and who had practically him in the past? Who had prosecuted him three times in the '60s. But Morgan Thow looked at this case and said, "Yeah, this is a verifiable case of harassment." And, you know, he indicted Richard DuPont,

“there was a trial, and DuPont eventually spent, I think, 18 months in prison.”

And the press wouldn't pick up on the publication that DuPont is... That's right, the New York Times didn't report on it. So, Roycone managed to escape outing, too. He did. But in the afterlife, there was Angels in America, which depicts him as closeted, and, you know, on the AIDS quilt, he's identified as bully, victim, coward. So, it caught up with him, but he was already dead when it did. No. No, this was sort of one of the curiosities that we had to explain in the book, you know,

how could Roy operate in such a hypocritical fashion, being a heterosexual, powerful lawyer

in the daytime, and then having this sex life in the gay world owning gay bars and such at night.

“And everyone knew about it. You read that Roycone's story is important because of what it”

teaches us about the fragile character of American democracy. What is the lesson you think his story teaches? Well, the lesson of Roycone is that McCarthyism was not defeated. It didn't die. It wasn't an aberration in the 1950s. And I suddenly realized as an historian that, you know, we Americans are a country of immigrants, a multicultural country, a country of civil liberties,

and the first amendment. But every few decades, we go through a period of paranoia.

So, we had a red scare in the 1920s. We had another red scare, the McCarthyite, which, Hansen, they're early '50s. And we're now going through another such period. And, you know, in the 1950s there were several thousand civil servants who lost their jobs as a result of what Roycone and Joe McCarthy did. And today it's become much worse. It's a much more serious assault on our democracy, a much more serious politics of vendetta. We're hunting down illegal

“immigrants and deporting them in large numbers. It's a very divisive time. And I think that explains”

the importance of Roycone. Well, Kai Bird, thank you so much for talking with us. Thank you, thank you for having me. Kai Bird's new biography of Roycone is called American Scoundrel. This is fresh air. On the next through line from NPR. Let's listen to Josh Reddick's new walk-up song. Whether you love it or you hate it, walk-up music has become a huge part of major league baseball. The need to secure the attention of the fans is relentless. I've thought

in my hearing things. I mean, I realize everybody's singing along. Listen to NPR's through line in the NPR app or wherever you get your podcasts. On NPR's wildcard podcast, journalist John Dickerson says you can't have belief without doubt. Your faith has to be sifted and sorted and knocked around by doubt. Watch or listen to that wildcard conversation on the NPR app, YouTube or wherever you get your podcasts.

This is fresh air. When Dolly Parton died, she left behind a vast body of works, scores of albums and hit singles that now document her half-century of music making in country, folk, pop, and bluegrass. A rock critic can Tucker has chosen three of Parton's performances that he says demonstrate her range and her unique takes on romance and heartbreak.

loss that more of Parton's music is uncovered, rediscovered, and heard by many for the first time.

“Because Dolly was a heck of a lot more than I will always love you and coat of many colors.”

Her voice and her image were so powerful that they frequently obscured the subtlety of her writing.

So does the sheer amount of music she created. With all that in mind, I've chosen three Dolly Parton performances I love, and that illustrate different aspects of her achievement. The first is from 1969, a song she wrote called "Don't Let It Trouble Your Mind." It's a breakup ballad, but it comes at its subject from a typically original angle. In the lyric, Dolly hasn't actually broken up with the guy yet. Instead, she senses that he wants to,

“but maybe hasn't worked up the nerve or doesn't want to hurt her feelings.”

She tells him she's not so sure about him either, and she'd rather they separate than continue a lukewarm relationship. It's the prettiest kiss off song you'll ever hear. I already been so long delay. It's a become so complicated. Maybe you feel obligated and out of sympathy for me you stay. But I'd rather live alone than live with someone. Doesn't love me. Not rather have you go then stay and put me down. But I get you above me.

I love a very so-one that fits best that we're on one. And if you don't love me, leave me

“and don't let it drop in your mind. You've waited much too long to leave.”

It's also worth noting that Rianne and Gidden's recorded a wonderful version of that song on her

debut album in 2015. The second song I want to play is one of the many duets part and recorded

with Porter Wagner in the late '60s and early '70s. When they met, he was a big star. She was young and looking for a break, and he would introduce her on his TV show as Miss Dolly. As duet partners, they were different from the other great male female duo of that period, George Jones and Tammy Wynet. Those two were married, singing about restlessness and adultery. With Porter and Dolly, it was an employer singing with an employee, a mentor with his mentee.

Harmonizing with the older man, Sharpen Dolly's debate skills, his songwriting helped her develop counter-arguments to male complaints about women. Soon, it was a series of musical quarrels between equals, with the students surpassing the professor in skill and life knowledge. All this was frequently expressed in a humorous way, as in the rowdy novelty song called "Run that by me one more time." You can hear Dolly run rings around Porter Wagner in her performance here.

She's loose and funny and way more expressive than he is. He ends up playing the straight man to her comedic energy. The last song I want to play is one of Parton's best story songs, but one that is now little known. It's called "My Blue Ridge Mountain Boy" from 1969. Its plot could easily comprise an entire novel. A young woman from Virginia follows her ambition to New Orleans, breaking the heart

of the calo-young man she was dating back home. She's frustrated in her efforts and exploited, reduced to prostitution, and now dreams of the boy she left behind, knowing that he's moved on

from her. It's classic Dolly Parton, who was always proving that you can be sentimental without being

I was just a little past 18 when I came to New Orleans. I'd never been beyond my home state mind.

There was a boy who loved me dearly, but I broke his heart's severe when I left my Blue Ridge Mountain Boy. I could have chosen three completely different first-rate Dolly compositions. Indeed, I could have

“done three songs a week here and not run out of material for years. If you want to keep Dolly”

Parton's memory alive in your life, you've got a treasure trove of unfamiliar,

perennially fresh music to keep reminding you of her forever. Ken Tucker is fresh air's rock critic. If you'd like to catch up on fresh air interviews you missed, like this week's interviews with

“Colin Kaepernick, actor Daniel Brooks, or New Yorker-writer Dexter Filkins, on Jared Kushner's”

dual role negotiating peace deals and personal business deals with some of the same countries.

Check out our podcast. You'll find lots of fresh air interviews. And to find out what's happening behind the scenes of our show and get our producers recommendations for what to watch, read and listen to, subscribe to our free newsletter at why.org/freshair. Fresh air's executive

“producer is Sam Brigger, our technical director and engineer is Audrey Bentham. Our interviews and”

reviews are produced and edited by Philis Meyers, Roberta Shorerock, and Rebuildenado, Lauren Crenzel, Theresa Madden, Monique Nazareth, Susan Nicundi, and Abelman and Nikogansala's whistler. Our digital media producer is Molly C.V. Nesper. They are a challenger directed today's show, our co-host is Tonya Mosley, I'm Terry Gross. It's gonna be all right. It's gonna be all right.

It's been a long long time since I know the taste of freedom, those cling back. ♪ Happy Birthday, my darling darling, I feel like I can't shoot it all ♪ On the latest code switch, 25 years after 9/11, America's have gotten real used to being watched by the government from doorbell cameras to AI power license plate readers. If you put anyone under a microscope or any community under a microscope,

you're gonna find reasons to harass people or to take it them or to harass them. Listen to code switch in the MPR app or wherever you get to podcasts.