Early Medieval Croatia

faith, and the lives of ordinary people across medieval Europe and beyond.

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Hello, I'm Dr. Elinoreonaga, and welcome to Gohamedevil from History Hit. The podcast that delves into the greatest millennium in human history. We uncover the greatest mysteries, the gobspacking details, and the latest groundbreaking research from the Vikings to the Normans, from kings to poops, to the Crusades. We delve into the rebellions, plots, and murders that tell us who we really were, and how we got here. Picture this, the sun-drenched delnesia coast, where the sapphire Adriatic laps against ancient stone walls.

We think we know this place with its Phoenician harbors and Roman ruins.

“But what if everything we thought we understood about medieval Croatia was wrong?”

Who were the people who built the first Croatian kingdom along this contested coastline?

What if their very identity was far more complex, a more contested, more fascinating than the simple narratives we've inherited? How did delmaces unique position between the Latin West and the Greek East, between emerging Slavic societies and fading Roman traditions? Create a medieval world that defies our modern categories. Today, I'm joined by Professor Floran Carta from the University of Florida, whose groundbreaking work has fundamentally changed how we understand the birth of nations in Eastern Europe.

Professor Carta doesn't just read the Chronicles, he excavates the silences between them. He's argued that the Slavic identity itself may have been less in ancient ethnic truth, and were a political instrument, forged in the crucible of Byzantine frontier politics. It's a perspective that has sparked fierce debate and, hopefully, will be enjoying a little bit of that here today.

We'll discover a delmacea that was never a passive recipient of civilizations,

but an active architect of its own destiny, the story of how frontiers became homeland, how identities are forged in conflict, and how the medieval world of delmace has shaped the Europe we know today. Professor Carta, welcome to god medieval. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Well, I'm very pleased to have you because I have brought you here in order to up the amount of slavicism happening on god medieval, and in particular,

kind of a tricky one to get you on today, because we want to talk about medieval Croatia, and a Croatia as a concept really abs and flows in the medieval period, and also it's difficult to cram this all into one show, because this is an area where we have just absolutely excellent documentation for the entirety of the medieval period and before, so it's hard to know where to start. I would say I'd into that, that in addition to the written documentation,

“which I think you had in mind, there's been an explosion of archaeological research, and”

historical, should I say, syntetical works based on that, or at least trying to combine the written with the archaeological evidence with fascinating results. I would say probably one of the most dynamic areas of historical slash archaeological research in the pool of the Balkans, which is really saying something as well, because there are exciting things coming out of the field of Balkan studies constantly. I've worked for a while on the laws of medieval Croatia project,

so I'm a little in the weeds on this one, and I must admit that, but I suppose if we were going

this so-called fall of the Roman Empire. I think that 476 is actually even a little bit late

“for our purposes, because what are we looking at before Western Rome falls? So the area we're talking”

about here is, I'm going to say, divided, but constituted a major province, Dalmatia. In other words, the geography of the area makes it clear that one would have the eastern shore of the Adriatic Sea with a number of cities. There's a specific feature geographical speaking of that area, large number of large and small islands along the coast, providing excellent shelter for ships, so-harbers. And, you know, beyond a narrow strip of land on the coast, you get the mountains,

and beyond the mountains, it's a completely different landscape. Culturally, obviously,

geographically and historically speaking, which is why most people actually link Dalmatia

to developments within the larger Adriatic Sea, which obviously would actually have been a Roman thing to do before even the empire. So this is actually probably already a Republican

“and development, a development of the Republican face of Roman history, and the interior, which”

posed problems of government, problems of transportation, roads, you know, things like that. As a consequence of which the present day territory of Croatia is, in fact, divided between two, maybe even three provinces. So what we call northern Croatia now, this was part of Panonia and the Roman Empire. I should say that I literally come as a whole, in other words, the area in the western-not-western Balkans was a province or a region of interest for the Romans.

You mentioned them when to start, maybe at the time of the three punic wars, even, something like that, right? So BC, by all means, and the Republican government, as I said, but if we are going to go into medieval developments, I would say that number one, you're right, 476, the so-called full of the Roman Empire. In fact, the end of the Roman Empire is an institution, not a full proper speaking. There's not have much of a bearing on the area here, nor does it's

company label great migration, barbarians coming in. As a matter of fact, in the history of the Balkans, this region is very interesting. In the sense that there is very little, I'm not saying that it was completely void of so-called barbarian invasions, but there, in fact, on the region is much, much smaller, than that, let's say, the central Balkans or areas for the to-deast, like in present-day Bulgaria or Greece, even. So, well into the sixth century, definitely within the two decades of the seven centuries,

there's not much evidence of destruction, perpetrated supposedly either by the fall of the Roman Empire, or by the barbarian invasions. Since the interior was very rich in mellow wars, there's even evidence of mining. Right at the border between what would be today, Croatia and Bosnia, specifically on the upper Nettava Valley. And, you know, the mining there, as far as we can tell, may have well survived or continue rather well into the sixth century.

That being the peculiar Roman flavor, which, I mean, explains why this region is distinct in the whole of Europe for another reason, after in the post-Roman era. There is no evidence of discontinuity in the urban environment. In other words, on the Dalmatian coast, you have places like Zadar, like Torogir, like Split, that continued with no interruption whatsoever from the Roman into the modern times, I should say, because they're still occupied. So, there is no gap. There is no such thing

as a demise of the cities may be revived in the Middle Ages and so on. So, obviously, the shrank in size. But, you know, the transformation-staking place could by no means be described in terms of destruction, catastrophe, etc. And, these are sizable cities as well. I mean, these are cities that have a real footprint. Spalato was quite clearly larger. I mean, even if they were not, those larger, let's say, sermium further up north, Serenskami, Trovisanaudis, or Tessalonica,

Tessaloniki nowadays in northern Greece, you know, there was more than that. They had a political significance, considered the fact that, after introducing the form of the Roman government,

in the late third century, known as the Tetraki Emperor Diocletian, who was a member of the

“first team, decided to read to retire. And, where did you go? Spalato. Exactly. I mean, I think”

that it's going to be somewhere where a lot of our visitors may have seen because, you know, Split is this big tourist destination anymore for just that reason. I'm quite interested, though, in this point that you've made about how we don't see that much disruption at this point in time

the area. I mean, at least around what is now Zahlgrab, we certainly see some osteogathic

“intrusions. But we just don't see the same level of violence, or at least upheaval.”

The area beyond the mountains, let's say, let's put it this way. So, not done Croatian now, it has had the name in Roman and post-Roman times Liburnia. That area is indeed, or witnessed, indeed, not the big destruction, but the disappearance, simply abandonment of large urban settlements, probably as early as the 4th century. But there has nothing to do with the invasions themselves. It may have something with the process is taking place inside the empire. In Slovenia,

which is the region you mentioned, Zagreb being most prominent in the area there, the present a capital of the country, that's an area which is, in fact, the southern part of the

province of Parnonia, which I mentioned earlier on. And it's history, including the presence or

absence of barbarians in the area, is linked to developments there. What is very interesting is that whatever developments were there had no reflection or very little reflection on developments on Dalmatian coast, the two being separated by mountains. So, let's say you have indeed, you have the Austro-goats in the area, you know, under the other egg moving through the area, towards Italy, which they conquer. You have the long birds, they're later on, right,

descending into the same region of Italy through the same area. It's a must, right? Two areas that connect Parnonia with Italy, not easily, would be involved in this no matter what you do. This is the area of Slovenia, of present a Croatia, and Slovenia too. So, the neighbouring country to the most. There is no way you can avoid that because in order to pass or to cross to the

“passage of the eastern Alps, you have to go through there, coming from Parnonia, that is.”

But all of this is almost parallel, it was like nothing, no results, no echoes in settlements on the coast, on the coast of all the Adriaticia. So, those are sometimes their parallel developments, almost like you have two distinct history lines to actually connect them. Every now and then there are connections. For example, later on in the 6th century, when the abars come into Parnonia into the present day area of Hungary, we learn from a sourcing

Constantinople that the abars sent a group of cutary goose. Those were nomads from the steplands, north of the Black Sea, which they had probably drawn on all the way to Parnonia. Send them all to Dalmecia, and they sex some of the towns there and some so forth. And there has been some attempt to actually link a few cases in which on fortified sites in continental Croatia, you see burnt layers, layers of destruction in archaeological terms to link it to the presence of

those cutary goose. There was very little actually of them. And in fact, the source tells us that although they were sent to Dalmecia, they were actually stopped by Roman troops, that actually managed to ambush them. In the end, it was not so much destruction of the Roman settlements in the area as of the troops, abars, or cutary-words, that sector.

“So, what do we see then in these areas with the arrival of the Slavs?”

Because I was given to understand that certainly we do see Slavs move into the area around Dalmecia, but this doesn't seem to make a huge dent in terms of the make-up of, for example, the Petrition class in towns. It seems to be that there are sort of old school Dalmecians who are controlling the cities, and Slavs are a little bit more in the countryside, but is that overly simplistic as a way of seeing it? It's problematic. There are three reasons that I can't

think of that traction makes it problematic. Indeed, what you just said earlier on is the traditional the scenario offered by the traditional historiography, thinking that in the case of the Dalmecia cause Croatia and whatnot, not Western Balkans, the actual migrations, great migrations are not those of the Austro-goats or the long bars of the hands or whatever, but those of the Slavs,

which obviously would be like. The problem is, this is the second element. The problem is that

recent scholarship, recent studies, I include myself in that not, you know, to blow my own horn, but because I actually did offer a comparative view with the situation of the Slavs on the lower than you, around 500, with that south of the than you, including the areas of not Western Balkans. But others have picked up on my ideas, a Austrian historian, for example, of Bosnian Croatian origin, Daniel Gino, who is a professor in, you know, it wrote a book about this. Actually,

there's no evidence in the written sources of Slavs settling in the area. We know that they're actually coming to, or mentions of them invading, not the area here, but actually Istria. So in the modern part of the Lyatixi away from Dalmatia and Croatia, continental Croatia, probably speaking, but there is no written source saying that they settled in the area. Moreover, archaeologically speaking, since this is actually the argument that is usually made for the period

we're talking about here, the archaeological evidence does indicate in certain cases the number of

Moreover, again, there are no settlements. Probably the most interesting aspect of this

“discussion is that the pottery, from an archaeological point of view, all over Europe, the Slavs”

are identifiable with the dissweb by at least three elements. One is the sunken floor buildings, sunken on purpose, you know, that's who create an installation for the inhabitants, either warmer in the winter or cooler in the sun. No such thing in Croatia, not so far from. Handmade pottery over certain attributes, so-called "practite pottery" after settlements and cemeteries, excavated in the 20s and 30s of last century in the city of Prague. And indeed,

there is no evidence of that kind of pottery that could be dated the 7th century in the area, either. And perhaps the most impressive of all elements, cremation cemeteries, given the fact that by the

time we're talking about here, so 4th, 5th century, 6th century, within this area under Roman control,

incumation was the predominant right. You would expect cremation to stand out precisely in the sense of like a contrast agent if you want, or the presence of those barbarians, whomever they are. Okay? The earliest cremation cemeteries that have been radiocarbon dated on the territory of present-day Croatia cannot be dated beef before year 700. So, and most likely are not linked to that to the invasions that we're talking about here. So, what do we do with this? I proposed initially

and Daniel General developed the argument even further that probably no invasions actually to place in Dalmatia. And the presence of the Slavs that you mentioned are your own is actually an accuteration process in which language must have been involved. And that brings me to the last

part of your question. Indeed, that must have affected the rural areas, not the urban ones.

Or if they affected the urban ones, that's a way later phenomenon of the high Middle Ages and late Middle Ages, the earliest times when we hear from the reconcourses that Slavs-speaking population had access into the cities. The cities remained Roman. The countryside changed. Change, not just in terms of language, the rather other changes happening in the area there. The pattern's economic patterns of the cultivation of the soil that existed in Roman times

are abandoned in favor of much simpler forms. So, this is not an ethnic or not only an ethnic change. Nobody denies that they may have been people coming from Donald Prober from the area of the other cabinet, which I mentioned is panonia, right? So, nobody denies the possibility of small scale migrations, but nothing like a huge mass of people coming into the area and replacing the local population on the country. But there is clear indication of a fundamental change in the social

and economic profile of the area between, let's say, 600 and 800. I think that that is far more interesting story, actually, because I think it's so easy to cut it. I mean, I'm not fine

“reason or that's what it is. If anybody can tell a bit of story, let's hear it.”

Let's hear it. It's so interesting, obviously, as someone who works on the checklands, we have these really obvious incursions of Slavs, so we do, you know, I've worked on, I've worked on digging up some of the cemetery's, you know. Here, the problems are more like dates. Indeed, we have everything that's from the region of sources of a polity of the, I don't want to call it a state, but some do. With the information

in question comes from a chronicle, 7th century chronicle, a French chronicle, a tribute to one unknown author, whom later the history is called Fredegar, and the chief team, also called King by Fredegar, of that polity, is a manning sub, and some rule over the winds. Exactly where some of the polity was, is not quite clear, but at least some of the parts of the present-day checklands may have been covered by it. There's also quite clear evidence of a 7th century

massive presence of the elements I just described to you all three, right, in the checklights, but not already at the net. So, area present-day check Republic Slovakia and North Eastern Austria, the argument is not so much whether or not their Slavs are coming. If they are coming, whether they are coming from, are they coming from Maria's, let's say, for the to this, such as Ukraine, or they are coming from the carpeting basin, from the area at that time already

conquered by the others, and at what moment in time, in Dalmatia, and in the entire area of North Western Balkans, including this Bosnia as well. It to some extent is true for Serbia, but only to some, to some extent. The argument is completely different. There is no evidence of migration,

“what so ever. So, you have to provide an explanation that actually would emphasize the social and”

economic transformations not so much. The replacement of one group of population with a number. So, you've mentioned now that some of the sources that we're using for this are coming via the Franks, and this is sort of, by the time we get to the 9th century, there is some sort of back and

Can you tell us a little bit about what happens there? So, the encroachment,

Frankish encroachment to this area, comes a direct consequence of two historical processes. One is the incorporation of Bavaria into the Frankish realm. Bavaria has been connected with the Franks quite some time right now, but it also, by virtue of matrimonial alliances, was connected to Lombard Italy, both of which were close to what we're talking about here,

“the Northwest, and the second probably most important aspect, the defeat of the others,”

by the Frankish armies under Charlemagne. It is after that, after the defeat, the demise of the others, that a true march like intrusion into the area, to the extension of the Dutch of Friuli,

in what is today, not Eastern Italy. So, the area on the northern shore of the Adriatic Sea becomes

significant. Now, two points here about this that actually explained the conflict as you mentioned between the Franks and the Byzantines. Number one is who's going to have control of Istria, which besides the fact that has a role in the navigation roads, in the sailing routes, in the northern part of the Adriatic Sea, was in fact a granary, another area in which you don't have, you don't see any destruction whatsoever. Until the 9th century, there was like a continuity from

late antiquity to the middle ages. We have a fantastic document called the Plakitum, as a minutes

“of a judicial meeting, let's put it this way, of Rizano, or Rizano, now it is, the describing the”

realities on the ground in Istria, in a way that is without peril anywhere in Europe at that time. And it looks like Brahman society, the document itself is 9th century, early in my century. So, that's one. And the other property equally significant is the presence of Venice in the area. Venice, sitting in Italy that has no Roman routes, it's a medieval city in the Troisens of the World, was at that time of the Byzantine Empire. And Venetians are by now rising to actually

control the eastern coast of the Adriatic Sea. So, out of this quite complex configuration comes a conflict between the Franks and the Byzantines complicated by two other phenomena. The rise of most likely the rise of some kind of party to chiefdoms of the local Slavs, as you mentioned, then in Croatia proper. And the earliest raids of the Arabs, coming from the Mediterranean, against some of the towns on the southern part of the Ist-Adratic coast. Ragusa, present-day

Dubrovnik, was put under siege by the Arabs towards the end of the landscape. The agreement between the Franks and the Byzantines in the area was reached the so-called Treaty of Akhen through which the Byzantines retained control over the coast because they wanted to have control over those towns that remain Roman, as I mentioned. They retained formal control

“over Venice as well. The Doge of Venice was essentially a Duke, that's what the Italian word”

actually means, of the Imperial administration in the Byzantium. While the Franks retained control of Austria, hence the plakitum of the original dimension to you and the interior. In other words, away from the coast, in what is today, Croatia proper. Those are the circumstances in which there is an explosion of Frankish influence, Frankish culture, Frankish weapons, Frankish modes of thinking in the interior, which all of which are connected to the rise of Croatia as a menuaste.

And then we get in the actual rise of Croatia and the establishment of a kingdom that we can point at and call Croatia in about a 425, is that correct? No, no. So the developments, the developments that we talk about here, so the earliest Frankish influence that we can talk about is probably

middle or second half of the 8th century. But the true developments explosion and all of that

is shortly after 800. Coming sides in other words with Charlemagne's involvement in the area and the involvement of his successor, Louis the Pires in the area as well. Then there's a number of geeks, a number of rulers, right? That are mentioned either in local inscriptions, maybe we can talk about this, or in the correspondence of the Pope who is clearly interested in exactly when those people got became Christian nobody knows. There's no mission, there is no not, but suddenly

the Pope's are interested in that area as if it has already had a tradition of being Christian for quite some time. So from the letters or the inscriptions will learn about a number of geeks, they are called dukes, right? Brandimir is one of them, for example, or Tripimir, Ibn Alia. And then by the 10th century, so after 900, okay? We hear from the correspondence of the Pope in relation to a couple of synods church gatherings that took place in split, 925, 928.

In relation to that, we hear that the ruler, the chief, the leader in the area there, Tommy Slap,

your finger on the chronology of the area, you'll see around 900 or around there, at least in the

eyes of the Pope, this individual is not a duke anymore, it's not a small leader, it's something. Yeah, see, that's, I suppose that I'm quite familiar with this specific origin story of Tommy Slap being the king, and then I'm kind of tacking it onto the idea that, oh, this is a kingdom now. But I guess that I'm also really dependent on people correspondence for that idea as well, so yeah. So the synod is very interesting. There are a lot of officials to discuss to be discussed,

but in both 925 and 928, three issues on the agenda of those council stand up. One,

“I'll perform earlier this discussion about which towns which cities were important in the area here.”

Both, you know, stood place in split, and there was a bishop there, obviously, and in split,

but it seems that had been a conflict of some sorts between the local bishop in split, and the bishop of a town city, what do you recall it? Further up north, that's on the northern part of an area of peninsula next to Zadar called Abni Kota, the town in question is NIN, and we have no idea when that bishop was created there, probably in the context of the power center of the earlier dukes of Croatia being there. That area, northern area of Abni Kota, is called to this day,

Vrvati. In other words, the area of the Croits, and maybe you can talk about this, Croits is probably not an ethnic name initially, but the name of an aristocratic group, the ruling group, the elite. Bida does it may, that bishop in NIN is in some kind of dispute with split, probably because they cannot decide which where should the boundaries between their respective dioceses be placed. That's the context in which the Pope's legates, the envoys of the Pope's

want to intervene and settle the affairs there. The final decision in that respect was to abolish the bishop's recopening, and that turned the bishop of split into an archbishop. It was in NIN, in other words, a metropolitan by now, with Jewish diction, not just over an entire Dalmatian coast, but over the interior as well. Historians, therefore, think that this may have been a deal with Tommy Slav, whereby he agreed to have that bishop brick of NIN, which had been

probably under control of his predecessors, abolished in exchange with now having a single kingdom, Croatia, and a single church based on the archbishop, of Split, who became, in other words, the primate of the country. A second aspect discussed at both accounts, it was whether or not to use Slavonic as the Liturgy. The first time we hear about this, in fact, in a letter to the bishops

“in Dalmatia, the Pope, I think, is John the 10th, if I'm not quite sure, I'm not quite sure,”

we just need to have one. But I think it's the Pope, right? Right. I want you to move away from what

he calls Metodidoc Trina, the teachings of Methodius. Now, as far as we know, Methodius never reached

Croatia. So neither Constantin/Serial or Methodius came to this area ever. In other words, their teachings were coming from more Ravia, from the eastern part of the present-day Czech Republic, all the way down, right? By some sort, we don't know exactly how it's happened. But from this moment onwards, the use of Slavonic for the Liturgy and the use of glagolitic as opposed to the serialic alphabet for rendering the sounds of the language becomes a matter of identity in Croatia,

at least for some people in the RS, the third element in this discussion in the third point on the agenda of the two council damage 925-928 is how, in fact, legates or envoys of the Pope that will come from now on into Croatia will have actually a particular place to stay all the time. In other words, there's a concern with establishing a regular line of communication between Rome

“and Croatian Kingdom. But I think this is a really important point, because we do have”

to an extent here, it's like clash between the church and Constantinople, right? Because Constantinople very much considers that this area should be at least somewhat under their sphere of power. Yeah, correct. Correct, you're right. And by the way, there's a revival of the Byzantine influence. So now it looks like in the 9th century it's receding, I should immediately say that in response to this encroachment of the Franks, the Byzantines create the technical work for the province

in the Byzantine Empire during this time is theme, not the theme of a musical piece or the theme of a noble theme, Temma, which meant a province in which the general leading the troops from

Okay, so it's a very decentralized form of government, unlike that of the earlier Roman empire.

“It's a reaction of the Byzantines to the stress and to the shrinking borders,”

specifically the fight with the Arabs in East. So in the area here, Dalmeysha is transformed into a theme, encroprovings. Exactly this moment in time, headed that the general dimension to you was actually his residence was in Zada. So Zada, it's it's very interesting split is in the south. Zada is next to him, as I mentioned earlier on the two centers, the north, it remains Byzantines the south, or central, or rather, is maybe not Frankish, but created a pro-Roman in the sense of the

pro or the church of Rome. We're moving to the centuries of the 11th century, there is a restoration

of Byzantine Eps. First of all, the 11th century, there's a restoration of the Byzantine rule in

the area here, quite clearly influenced there, as we move into the second half of the 11th century,

“as you know, in 1054, there's a split of the church with the great schism, West and East,”

Catholic and Orthodox. Nobody seems to be concerned about this here. There's no animosity, there's no condemnation, there is no either from either side. And in the 12th century, the last time, under manual first, this is third major emperor of the Comninian dynasty, established by Alexios Comninus, the emperor who called for the Crusades in the first place. Well, he didn't call for the Crusades, he called for help, but the Crusades ensued from that, right? And under manual,

there's actually a deep involvement in the area with the archbishop of split Reynir, traveling all the way to Constantinople, you know, shower with gifts and whatnot. Reynir is a Catholic bishop. He's well received in Constantinople by a Byzantine Emperor. Wow, that is really interesting. And you know, all of this is happening within three or four decades before a Pope, Alexander III, coming from Rome, in his trip to actually get in touch with and negotiate with Emperor Friedrich Barbarossa,

stops in Zada. So, what the Roman Catholic clergy in the area, they're two points of pressure. The competition with the Orthodox clergy, but really that's not an issue until the fall of Constantinople to the Crusaders, 12 or four. And, you know, the actual, the actual fault lines, battle lines, you're going to put them between the Orthodox and the Catholic in the area are rather a high medieval or late medieval phenomenon. Okay, number one, number two, in the high mid

Middle Ages, in the 11th, 12th, 13th century, there's a conflict between the papacy and the Holy Roman Empress, German Empress. And there's a reflection on that in the area here. In fact, I would go, I would go as far as to say that the end of the independence of the Kingdom of Crow Asia, right, in the late 11th century comes as a consequence of just that, not as a consequence of the conflict between Rome and Constantinople.

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I can really say we see the same set of circumstances. And it's just testament to

“I suppose almost the diplomatic powers of the people who live in this place, and also how important”

they are. This is a group of people that you just want to keep at me. You know, you really want the donations to be on your side, I suppose. There is a commercial factor here as well. Those are very rich cities, and they participate in the trade. So if you are in Constantinople, for example, in Constantinople, in the maintaining control with or over and contact with Venice, then you need all those stops on the eastern Algeria coast, right? If you are looking from the

you a 1000 becomes a major power in Eastern Europe. So in order to establish contact with Hungary,

“you need this area as well. So your right is an intersection of power spheres that transforms”

this area into probably one of the most fascinating for understanding how people on the ground could navigate great power interests and maintain a sense of independence and the sense of identity. Probably the most interesting aspect of this is that while out of the conflict between the Pope and the Emperor, Holy Roman Emperor, now in the history of the Middle Ages as the in Investiture Controversy, came the concern of that Pope who started it all,

Gregory VII, to implement the Gregorian reform in the area that we are talking about here,

meaning first of all, celibacy of the clergy, not because of or not only because of the

moral aspect, but in order to prevent that priests or bishops will leave their offices in inheritance to their sums. The big elephant in the room for the Gregorian reform is Simony, that is to say the idea of selling church offices, either lay church offices or

“monastic positions, but for mining or some equivalent material of that. That's why the Pope”

also want to endorse among other things, a moral code for the clergy and pushing the secular interference in the church affairs away. That's a problem in Croatia, because as far as we know, as I said, there is no point at which we can put the finger chronologically speaking and say, this area was converted to Christianity in the years such and such. There is no such thing. We actually are in the dark completely about how the process took place. However, before

year 800, they're already churches built, right? There's quite clear indication, not just of Christianity accepted in principle, but of the elites, members of the elites being involved in promoting it because most of those churches, obviously, are not built by benediting monks who come into the area for sure, but they are built by the local elites there, right? And those elites are not going to let those churches be run by anybody else but themselves. In other words, those are

their proprietary churches. They think of them as an attribute of their local power there. Now,

forwarding time into the second half of the 11th century and you'll see the Pope's being quite

upset about this. You cannot have a church in which the local rule of place is the priest and then queens the revenue of that church, right, for his benefit, right? You cannot have that. So when the church reform is pushed into the area here, remember I told you earlier on that one of the three points discussed the Synod's 925, 928 in split was the use of Slavonic in the Liturgy, okay? So in the 11th century, we have a rebellion, quote, unquote, of two bishops in the northern

part of Croatia and the Kvarner archipelago, the islands of Osor and Krik. Both those bishops decided we're not going to go with the Gregorian reform. We're going to have specifically Slavonic as Liturgy in the church and the Pope is really upset about this. He's so concerned about this that he's actually right to Sven Estritsson, King of Denmark, asking him maybe he would have a fleet to go all around Europe and take care of those heritage. Wow. We have the letter. In other words, quite clearly

indicating that I can recently, this is probably the pope was already toying with an idea of

“crusade. Yeah, so, and this is an incredibly important point, I think, because we do certainly see”

Croatia become victimized by varying crusade durs over time. You know, certainly, I think by the

13th century, we are seeing direct attacks on Zadar, for example. One of the participants in the first

crusade that ended up conquering Jerusalem, Remontof, or the Luz actually, I don't know if you know about different commanders of the crusade. The first crusade was not the royal crusade, it was actually the grassroots element. So, each one of them actually traveled by different routes to all of them meeting Constantinople and discuss with Alexei's what to do. One of them actually traveled through Croatia, probably speaking, and Remontof Aguilera, who is the chronicler of that

group, tells us how difficult the trip was. They can see that this country to become completely, so this is, well, late 11th century. When I don't know if we have churches, but we have intervention of the pubs in the area, Seema is one not. Yet the crusaders perceived this area as being completely pagan and, you know, killing people or randomness on somebody else. I mean, this is crusaders all over, isn't it? They get to places, they don't understand

these people are Christian, they kill them. Well, they were poor, they saw a city, that was Christian

four, we see them the second Constantinople, but we also see them second Xardar around the story as well.

“Yes, absolutely right, absolutely right. So, that was less a matter of pagan. It was a”

matter of the crusaders being in a binder that they actually had signed up a contract with the Venetians that they were paid them for certain amount of ships. Unfortunately, the Venetians provide all the ships, they got the contract of the latter, but there were fewer crusaders than they had anticipated, therefore, they could not pay. And the old dojo of Venice, and Rikodandolo offered them as a solution, hey, how about in to feel from some of that debt, you do a job for us. Zara,

that time, I mentioned Croatia, ending as a kingdom and in Hungary taking over. First, with the

King Vladislas, the first, and then King Coloman, who was actually crowned as King of Croatia,

Slovenia, Dalmatia, Hungary, Croatia, Dalmatia, Slovenia in 11 or two in Biograp. Because of that,

“there's quite clearly a Hungarian influence by now, what was not possibly nearly made”

Middle Ages, the influence from panonia crossing the mountains into Dalmatia. Now, it's possible because they're part of the St. Kingdom. There's a bishopric founded in Zagreb, suffering of the Archbishop of Estarbomb, a center of the country. Dalmatian remains independent, however, none of the less the Hungarians get involved in the election of the Archbishop of Split. They want Hungarians in that office, not people from elsewhere. So, there's an encroachment of Hungarian

power in the area there. Come early, 13th century, the two sons of Bella III, the Hungarian King, who took the crusading vows, could not fulfill them because he died in the Middle Ages. One of

them is ruling in Hungary, Emedic, and the other one, Future King, and the second, has this region,

Croatia and Dalmatia as a sub-Kingdom, declares in St. Madrid there and runs the thing as if it's an independent king. And as a consequence of that, when the crusaders are dealing with Venice, in terms of the contract there, Zara, whom the Venetians wanted the crusades to take, was, in fact, in Hungarian hands. Let me translate this. That means it was actually in the hands of a power that not only was Christian, but on the Bella III signed for the crusade. Can you

wrap your mind around this? So, would you please Zara, which is a Christian crusading city, you crusaders? Could you conquer a crusading city? That's the tradition, though. You know, the tradition, so do anything, provided that it is. And as you know, the inhabitants of the city, basically, you know, lower crosses on the walls and say, "Hey, what are you doing? What are you doing?" I mean, this is the complexities that we see in these particular crusades. It's just nonsense,

this entire thing. Well, it may have been nonsense from the beauty of the hindsight, but at the time it made a lot of sense because actually the crusade could continue based on that. As you probably know, innocent the III, blasted the crusaders, excommunicating, then remove the excommunication, but did not remove the excommunication for the crusaders, but not for the Venetians. So, the crusaders arrived next to Constantinople, being transported

on the ships of excommunicated people. Well, you know, and they stole the lion that's in St. Mark's Square, didn't they? It's all more than that. There's an account of actually how much they stole from that city. But Xara itself, for historians, it's actually an event that highlights the wrong path that the fourth crusade took or would take, eventually. But actually on local bases, they not have much of an impact. The city had changed hands many times, and it will do so

into the 14th century as well. Venice is very interested in controlling the entire dirty coast. And by 1320, so early 14th century, it does so. It's only during the war with the second underving king of Hungary, Louis I, that long war in which was won by Hungary, in that that Venice

“relinquished some of the cities there. And so it's a brief intermedge, what should I say?”

Immediately after that, you probably know, at the end of that and the end of Louis I's reign, 1370, at $2, but no male heir. So we have a struggle for power inside Hungary, of which of course Venice took advantage to re-instore the domination of Dalmatian coast. Really, the only threat to that Venetian almost constant Venetian claim to the Dalmatian coast

Turks. But well, into early modern period, the cities each one of them remained under Venetian influence.

Yeah, because this is a really interesting point in terms of what ends up happening with Dalmatia, et cetera, because really 13th century, this is an area that is quite closely under Hungarian control. I mean to the point where, when the Mongols attack Hungary, Belved the Fourth,

“fleece to Germany. And so you know, that's how Hungarian we're talking about. And by the time”

you get the 14th century, by all intents and purposes, I would say that it's really much more Venetian in character at the time. The interior of the country, Croatia, proper, actually is fragmented. In other words, the crisis of power, there are two moments of crisis in Hungary, of which local factors in Croatia took advantage. One is at the end of the

arpedian dynasty shortly before and after 1300s, right before the first Nigerian king,

Charles I, Robert, was proclaimed, was recognized against the long war with the magnets in Hungary. Local factors in Croatia took a good advantage of that. And the second one is the death of Louis I, so towards the end of the, another hundred years later, okay, towards less than a hundred years, 1370. When again, the local factors took advantage of the absence of a strong central power to impose its rule over this sub Kingdom of Croatia. That resulted in the number of

noble families, exercising control almost autonomously, if not independently in certain areas. For example, the Babonich family in Slavonia, close to the Hungarian border, the Franco Pan, in the Northern Croatia, Liburnia and the Kbarner area there, the Kashich, probably the most prominent of old families, were for all practical purposes, the rulers of the Omish, which had even a number

“of castles, the most important one was Mirabella, right at the mouth of Naredva, and became almost”

like not just rulers of the area, they were pirates in the area. In other words, they were independent towards Venice as well, right? I'm the number of other families that established rule in either next to the coast like the Kashich or in interior, near Bribier, right? So what do we see in the late Middle Ages? Specifically, last quarter of the 14th century and the 15th century, as the Germans are moving in, the area here is not necessarily controlled or not as much

controlled by the Hungarian anymore, as this controlled by the local Nola. Those are the circumstances, in which a sense of Croatian separateness identity is formed on the basis of this independent

“attitude of the Croatian novel man. It's responsible for the laws you mentioned earlier”

on for the sense, which as far as we can tell a myth by now, that at the time of the incorporation of Croatia into the Hungarian kingdom, it had been given a number of oats being taken, it had been given a number of privileges from the very beginning. The privileges existed, no doubt, but they are attested only much, much later time. It seems to be a projection back in time to justify the developments in the late Middle Ages.

After civil war, Regicide and Chromwell's Republic, the monarchy returned, but Britain would

never be the same. I'm Professor Susana Lipskim, and this month, or not just the tutors,

where transported back to the age of restoration royalty, from Charles II to Queen Anne and the birth of the Empire. Join me on not just the tutors from history hit, wherever you get your podcasts. Can we talk a little bit about the 15th century and this conflict between the Sicilian Angevins and one of my most hated Roman emperors, as a citizen of the world. Charles is worse

kind of independent Croatianness. We do see the Croatians going back and forth, because there's the so-called Andgevins and Sicily, who were saying, "Well, we're making a play for it."

And initially, the Dalmatians side with the Andgevins, and then say, "Oh, never mind,

“maybe Sicily." But there's a lot of going back and forth, right?”

Yeah, there were, so, especially the Lord of Bebeir, that actually, a company, Charles refers the first Andgevins rule over Hungary to the central lands of Hungary. I would say that not all Croatians, but some of the Croatian noble families were the earliest allies that Charles, Charles I, had in Hungary for his rule, okay? Now, forward in time, as you said, at the time of Sicily's one dog, Luke Sambert, I would say that probably the Sturdius supporters that he had

in the area, or the Lord of the Slovenia, because he was close to the lands that he himself had. There's something here that needs to be factoring again. After the death of Louis I, let's put it this way, okay? After the death of Louis I, who had a very strong hand in this, and as I mentioned to you, he had defeated Venice in the area, so the stuff was the very strong firm rule, Hungarian rule

“in the area here. And because he became King of Poland as well, as you know, that transformed”

this policy into a very large personal union, but still in a very large polity, right? By that, I mean, you know, I'm not saying that developing dance scheme friends those in split. But that's basically the axis that of power that we are talking about here. After that, right? Especially on the Sicily's one of Luke Sambert, a particular area, as you know, the Sicily's one was a Holy Roman Emperor, as well. A particular area that concerns

he more than anything else is that of the Czech lands. We talk about it already wrong. In this particular case, because of the whose side was? Against the whose side, he proclaims the number of crusades. So his attention is drawn into that. That's a reason for which Croatia and Croatia nobleman actually developed a very strong sense of Biden. That's also the reason for which a number of citizen Dalmatian coast fall back onto the Venetian control.

So I'm not sure the Anjavins did anything here. I would say they're probably, they're by

virtual pushing their claims. Real claims in the case of Charles claims that were never for

for field property speaking, with with later rulers of the Anjavins in Hungary. They provided a point of entry for this particularism of the Croatian nobility, which really has no parallel in any other part of Hungary. There has been some very interesting studies done by comparing, let's say, developments in Croatia, 1400 to 1450s, let's put it this way, to developments in Transylvania, the eastern part of the Hungarian kingdom. Needless to say, this is the era of John Hunia,

magnets in Transylvania supporting him or not supporting him or whatever. But there is nothing anywhere in Hungary that will actually match the very strong sense of local identity and the very

powerful plans that we have been growing we shall properly speaking. The Kashić and the Baabonić

probably mean the most prominent among them. I don't think that's surprising when we consider all of this. I mean by the time we've got to the 15th century we have hundreds and hundreds of years worth of history where things are just different in Croatia. It's just not the same story that we hear in other parts of Europe. Even in other parts of Slovak speaking Europe, even in other parts of Central Europe, just above it. It's a really different political system that relies on really

different sets of alliances. I just do think it's truly unique in that.

“Yeah, I think it's because of its position and the intersection. We talk about this earlier”

and for much earlier times. It's intersection of great powers. Certainly not to the same extent, both in terms of numbers and in terms of historical phenomenon. But the area of the Romanian pressipality, the Malaysia and Moldive is also at the intersection of great powers. We're talking about the phenomenon of the late Middle Ages and the Northern modern period, well into the 18th century. And in a way it's very interesting how the two work the same way. A lot of people have asked

why the Ottomans stop the push in Bosnia. Of course, they befitted the Croatian army of Libaba and killed almost the entire aristocracy. That was a myth of the battle as being a significant for the later Croatian nationalism. But there was no real attempt by the Ottomans to conquer this

case they could have done so. After all, they brought Hungary down to its knees, conquer the country,

destroyed the kingdom and transformed two thirds of the country into a partialic. Why didn't do it for Croatia? The easiest way to respond, this is because before they could figure out what to do,

“the Hubsbus got into. But I think there's a pair here, that's why I mentioned Moldavian and”

Malaysia, the cost of keeping Croatia under control. I'm talking about the Ottomans. Would have been enormous. In other words, even from Istanbul, from Constantinople, people realized that that corner there, at the intersection of interest to great powers would be very difficult and costly because of that to defend. So it's better to actually keep it like a gray zone, you rate it, you know, every now and then you actually go maybe have an occupation longer and year or two or something.

Like that, but you're never going to implement the passionately with government. It's going to cost

a fortune. And you know, the advantages are not obvious on the country. Dalmatia properly speaking was a bastion in a two a sense of the word, defended by the mountains on one side and by that formidable sea power of Venice on the other. So, you know, in Croatia, probably speaking, you're not going to fight only one power that say the Hubsbus, from, you know, from 1500 onwards, especially after the demise of Hungary, the two powers, the Hubsbus and the Ottomans are each

others, throat, well into the aching censure. You know, subway and all one not. But in the area

we're talking about here, the Ottomans have a second enemy. Venges. And this is a different kind of warfare,

you're not waging on land, you need a fleet, which is another enormous cost. The Ottoman Empire around 1500 is definitely under Soleiman. The magnificent has its extraordinary power. So, the question that I ask you, why didn't they push it? It's quite an interesting one from a historical

“point of view. And the explanation I said, I think is in the geopolitical configuration in the area”

from the early Middle Ages well into the early modern period. I've learned, I think we have to stop here, which is so difficult to do. But also, I think that we've done a fairly all-right job of covering, you know, almost a thousand years of history in an hour. And it's some of the more interesting history. I think that we can find in the Middle Ages. Is there anything else that we've missed that you'd really like to cover before we go? Oh, I don't think so. I want to say

that, you know, we talk a lot about politics, but there is a very interesting culture history here. Maybe your audience would like to know that one of these scripts, manuscript scripts, right? Developed in the monastery of Monte Casino in Italy, is best represented by manuscripts from Croatia. I'm talking about Ben Aventon's in existence in the 11th and 12th century. With some absolutely gorgeous e-beminations, some of the most wonderful manuscripts ever written in

the Latin in the western part of the church in the high Middle Ages. It's not just a matter and needless to say, there's a fascinating chapter of the history of architecture, specifically for the Romanesque art here, with such phenomenal churches as the one of St. Frisogones and Zada, we're talking about the city and Catherine is big. I just want to make a plug for the concept of Zada,

“which is a little un-songed. I think that's people should, if you're interested in medieval history,”

Zada is really wanting to go check out that people just don't for some reason. Well, of course, thank you so much. It's been such a thing. Thank you forever. It's a light to speak to you today. Thank you. Thanks to Professor Kerta and to you for listening to Gone Medieval from History It. Remember, you can enjoy unlimited access to award-winning original TV documentaries, including my recent documentary on the trials of Joan of Arc, and I had free podcasts by signing up at historyit.com

forward slash subscription. You can follow Gone Medieval on Spotify, where you can leave us comments and suggestions, or wherever you get your podcasts, and tell all your friends and family that you've gone medieval. Until next time. Now, by the way, come.