The Women Who Ruled Medieval Burgundy, and Europe

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Hello, I'm Dr. Eleonoreonaga, and welcome to Garmed Evil from History Hit, the podcast that delves into the greatest millennium in human history. We uncover the greatest mysteries, the gobspacking details, and the latest groundbreaking research from the Vikings to the Normans from Kings to Popes to the Crusades. We delve into the rebellions, plots, and murders that tell us who we really were, and how we got here.

If I say the word burgundy to you, it's likely that the first thing that comes to mind is wine.

“That's fine, you should probably keep thinking that. However, for medieval historians,”

burgundy is more than just a great glass of red. It was one of the most powerful

Dutchies in the Middle Ages, and by the late medieval period, it managed to transform itself into what many would argue was an actual empire. The Ragundian throne was populated by the House of Valois, who you may remember as the cadet branch of the Commission dynasty, and the rulers of France, as well. Indeed, many of the rulers of burgundy are big names, who we've discussed on Conmed Evil in the past. This includes people like Duke Philip Bolt, or John the Fearless.

They enjoyed life in one of the wealthiest and most sophisticated courts in Europe. Patronizing artists and musicians, writers and bookmakers, but behind the big names and the flashy court, there was an even more impressive Burgundian legacy. It's women. Today, on Conmed Evil from History It, I'm joined by Susan Abernathy, historian and author of the formidable women of burgundy, to talk about the remarkable legacy of the Duchess's de Bogong.

We will consider the power and prestige of these women, who not only made kings and embers, but waged war, made connections, and ruled huge swaths of land in their own right, and name. Susan, welcome to Conmed Evil. Hi, Eliner. Thanks for having me. I am so excited to have you today because I love your book, and also I love the women that we are about to talk about today. And indeed, from a really nerdy standpoint, which is the only standpoint

that I have, I am really interested in this political polity. So I'm going to start us off with

“the question that I think is going to need answering for a lot of people. When we say burgundy”

in the late Middle Ages, what are we actually talking about here? Well, the historian to argue to over what to call this, like, is it an empire or is it a state? Because it's just such an amalgamation of different territories, but I prefer empire, because I love these vowaw dukes,

and I think that they're fantastic, and they did an amazing job. All these territories were carved

out by these dukes, and it was comprised of the low countries, parts of northern France, and parts of the Holy Roman Empire. And Philip the Bold started out with flanders, rethyl, nevers, among others, and through purchase, inheritance, marriages, outright war, he added so many other entities to his empire. And by the time of his grandson, Philip the good, the largest acquisition that would be made would be Luxembourg. And he gained this by bullying

“the Duchess, Elizabeth of Gorlets. That's how he gained Luxembourg. Well, I agree with you completely,”

because, you know, for me, I think an empire is when you have people of varying cultures and languages that are amalgamated underneath one particular ruler. And so I do think that burgundy kind of counts, right? Of course, I'm going to say that because I'm a holy Roman imperial historian. So, you know, if that's how we're dividing empire, that's how we're dividing empire, the residents have an empire. So, we're going to do this, have an empire, right? And so,

of the world is, especially in the 15th century. Can you talk about what makes this

particular amalgamation tissue? Burgundy was an economic and a cultural powerhouse. This area, especially the low countries, kind of served as the breadbasket to Europe with their grain exports. The low countries were known for their weaving and their wool and linen. So, they produced a lot of materials, tapestries, and clothing. The Belwa duces were really good at centralizing their government. They kind of brought all of these different territories together

and collected a lot of wealth by doing that. And they used this wealth to put on a good show

at their court. So, the Burgundy in court was known for its extravagance. This is one of my favorite

“things. I'm really drawn to a good court life. I can't help it. I'm such a sucker for it, right?”

If Eleanor of Aquatene is doing it, I'm there. When the Burgundians are doing it, I'm there. And I suppose it's because, for me, if I was a rich person in the Middle Ages, this is how I would expend my cultural power. Indeed, these people have it, right? It's hard for us to kind of get ourselves in the head space of medieval people and understanding that wool and cloth is incredibly important. But, you know, if you don't have central keyding, you're going to be really interested

in wearing wool all the time. It's one of those things. So, you know, this is what makes, you know, hence, this is what makes bruise. This isn't places like that are built because of the cloth industry. And that money is going straight into the coffers of the Val-Woffing. Exactly. I'm thinking out, there's a picture from one of the medieval manuscripts of Philip the Good inducting his son Charles the Bold into the Order of the Golden Police. And that to me is just

“like, that's what the Burgundian court was like. Yes. Can you tell us a little bit about the Order”

of the Golden Police? Well, when Philip the Good married is a Bell of Portugal. It was his first international success, diplomatic success. And so, for the wedding, he founded the Order of the Golden Police, which was a chivalric order on the lines of the English one. Knowing about the Order of the Golden Police will completely change the way that you relate to historical portraits for the

rest of your life. Because when you see the gentlemen, they're always wearing their little order

of the Golden Police pin or necklace or something like that. It's a very important flex, I think. As important as these particular regions are, it's true that this is a conglomeration that is brought about through politics and warfare, just as you say. And it's sort of always in danger following a part as well as yes. Yes. The risks were huge because each principality had its own culture and view of how it wanted to be governed. Perhaps the best example of this would be the

Duchy of Gelders, which didn't even want to join the Empire and it didn't until the reign of Charles the Bold. And the people of Gelders wanted to maintain their independence. In fact, there was a long war fought for many, many years and they wanted this independence no matter the cost. The Holy Roman Empire also had a claim to Luxembourg and they would fight to maintain that. Flanders had some very independent-minded guilds full of laborers who would regularly rebel, Brebont, which is now Belgium,

had in a state that just didn't like answering to the Burgundian Duke. So it took a lot to hold

“this Empire together. How central are women to the existence of this particular Empire do you think?”

Well, I, I, I, I state this isn't very at the front of the book that the Valois dukes could not have done this without the women. And, and I think they did recognize their importance. And I, and I have to admire the dukes for allowing the women to have and hold the power. So there's a lot of good examples of this and, and perhaps my favorite is Margaret of Austria. She ruled the, you know, as a region of the Netherlands for her nephew, the Holy Roman Emperor Charles the Fifth, and she certainly

recognized her power. And she did everything she could to highlight the Valois heritage of the Burgundian Empire. I think one of the things your book does really well and one of the reasons that we're having this conversation at all is that it really highlights the fact that these women are not just wives.

sort of a bargaining chip in terms of marital alliances. But that's a really reductive way of thinking

“about how power is wielded by women. You know, I just think that it goes a long way. All you have”

to do is really look at how burgundy is run to realize that these are not just pawns. Like these are the women who are actually running these areas politically. And it's not seen as strange,

either it's seen as basically what happens in burgundy. Yes, yes, it's kind of like inevitable.

One good example is like Margaret of males. She was the ruler of flanders, rethyl and others. And so they expected her to rule. They didn't expect her husband to rule. So she was the governor of those those realms. Can we talk a little bit about Margaret of male in particular? Who is she? How does she come into view in burgundy? I really like her story a lot. She was the daughter of Louis Count of Flanders, Rethyl and Nevers. And her mother was Margaret

of Brebond. And she was the second surviving daughter of the Duke of Brebond. And so through

Margaret of males, father's mother, there was also a claim to the French Comte or the county of burgundy,

the free county of burgundy as opposed to the Dutchy of burgundy. And so Philip the bold had been given the Dutchy of burgundy by his brother King Charles the Fifth of France. And he harbored an ambition to combine the county and Dutchy of burgundy. And to do this, he had to marry Margaret of male. So this is where you have the germination of the Burgundy and Empire. So this is what he started out with. The Dutchy, the county, Flanders, Rethyl and Nevers. And he recognized all these claims to especially

“the claim to the Dutchy of Brebond. He was very interested in that. And I think this is such an”

interesting combination of power because this means that we see the territory that burgundy is controlling, kind of become a bit of a wiggly snake. You know, so it goes out from burgundy. That's like in the middle of central France, kind of like a near diesel these days. But it also means that we've got Flanders and Rethyl and Nevers. And it's kind of in a bit of a snake that goes all the way around a bunch of the royal Dutchy of France, which is funny. So it's kind of like enclosing these little bits

that the King of France owns. And also it causes problems a bit of a headache for the Holy Roman Empire because the Holy Roman Empire thinks the low countries are in the Holy Roman Empire. You know, it is very, very clear about that fact. So this is a headache for the two major state powers in Europe at the time. I would say. You have kind of a little tension between the King of France, the Duke of Burgundy and the Holy Roman Emperor that's going on the whole time.

And it's just such a difficult, it's a really, really difficult kind of road ahead. You write

in the middle of the two most powerful guys in Europe. And they make this work. But you know,

market of bail is making this work, right? With this incredible influence that she has because she's the Countess of Flanders and the Duchess of Burgundy. Can you tell us a little bit about what that means in practice for her? Well, she kind of had two jobs. One was to rule her own properties, which was Flanders, Rethel and Nethers. And then her husband allowed her to rule in his stead whenever he was away in France, dealing with his mad King,

nephew King Charles VI. So she had a lot on her plate. And something that I found interesting was that the people of Flanders wanted her to live in Flanders. They said, "You are our ruler,

“you should live in Flanders." And she kind of walked at that and would live in Pickardy instead.”

So that was pretty. That was pretty interesting. Yeah, it was pretty interesting. But sometimes she would live in D. John, sometimes she'd live in Boone, she'd live in different parts of the Empire while she was ruling for her husband. Do you think that it's fair to call her the matriarch of Burgundy? You know, that's, I think that's one of the things that gets thrown around about her a lot. And I think it's apt. I think so. I mean, not just because of her children and

their marriages and what happened with them, but just the fact that she was the one that started the Burgundy and Empire. Yeah. And I mean, fundamentally, if you start the empire through

popular acclaim, right? Then everyone's going to say, "Oh yeah, that's what happens there." Right? Like that's just how we started things out. So everyone just kind of accepts it and it gets sort of branches out from there. There was no sailing law in this area. So women could

“inherit and women could rule. So, you know, it was expected. I think that that's, you know,”

what are these things where you tend to, there is an assumption about the way that power works in the Middle Ages. And sure, yeah, I think a lot of the time, King's would prefer to have a son. It just makes things easier. But there's a lot of places where they don't care about that at all. It's like that might be something that happens at the French court, but we're not all French, buddy. Right? You have just hinted at this a little bit. It Margaret's

daughter is with Duke Philip. They go on to have really exceptional power in varying places in Europe, but particularly Catherine of Burgundy. And she ends up ruling the county of Philip Watt, which is in modern-day Switzerland. Right? Can you tell us a little bit about Catherine? Yeah, because she's my favorite. I just have to admit it. And everybody I talk to, you know, she's the one that

comes to the four. Because I've just never experienced anyone like her in all of my studies of

medieval women. Her father married her to the Duke of Austria when she was a baby, basically, but of course she stayed, you know, with her parents until she was a wage. And she eventually went to Austria with her and lived with her husband. And it was actually a very successful marriage.

“We have evidence that her husband treated her very kindly. The only thing was they didn't have any”

children, which was a big disappointment. But her father had refused to pay her dowry. And so she went to her husband and she said, "Hey, look, my dad's not paying my dowry. What can you do for me?" And he actually allowed her to rule the county of Faret. And this gave her an income, but it also allowed

her to basically rule on her own. Now, she kind of acted as a diplomat for her brother and her

nephew John the Feralists and Philip the Good and for her husband. But she ruled on her own. She even started petty wars. She made diplomatic and economic treaties with different parts of the Holy Roman Empire. So I think she's just fantastic. But the really interesting part of her story is there was a man at her father's court, Maximilian Smashman. He was an Austrian nobleman. His mother actually was Burgundian. And so she knew him from a young age. But he offered to help her

when she was ruling Faret. I don't know. He must have been pretty handsome and charming. And they fell in love and she made a marriage to Maximilian after her husband died. She did not tell her brother. She did not tell anyone that she made this marriage. And so her brother said, "You know, he didn't stop it." He didn't say, "You know, let's em all this thing or whatever." He just told her to come back to Burgundie. But I'm just stunned

that she did this without telling anyone. Eventually, Philip the good intervened. And he got the marriage and all because he didn't want any trouble from Faret. Typical Faret. He wanted to keep Faret.

“So he had the marriage and all. And I honestly think that she died of a broken heart. So”

I just think that her story is so interesting because it shows us that women do have these ways of pushing forward what they want. So you know, to say, well, obviously, listen, I am a Burgundie

in women. Where's my county to rule? Let's let's be having it right in the first place. And then

in the second place, just, you know, get near marriage. And you know, okay, yeah, you can be forced to acknowledge that something that happens. But she got that for a while, and it's more than a lot of women can say for themselves. For sure. For her. Yeah. Yeah. I just think it's a great story. And we talk a little bit about Margaret of Bavaria because I think this is, this is one of

first, Duke of Bavaria, Straubing, Count of Hano, Holland and Zeeland and Lord of Frisland. So he ruled a good part of the low countries. And her mother was Margaret of Lignus. And she was from the house of P.A.S. and had family relationships with many of the ruling houses of central Europe, including Brunswick, Brandon Berg, as well as the Bohemian and the Czech royal families.

There you go. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. She's just really incredible right because she makes

this very great match to John the Fearless. But when they married, he's only 13 and she's 22. That's a bit, that's a bit odd for the medieval period. Well, I actually found a couple of other examples. The Louis account of Flanders, who was the father of Margaret of Mail, his wife Margaret of Brigbont was seven years older than he was. I kind of liken it to Henry VIII and Catherine of Berg on. It was kind of similar to that situation. And then Jonah Brigbont, who was the sister of

Margaret of Brigbont, when she was 25, her father made a marriage to Vencesloss Duke of Luxembourg when he was 10 years old. So well, you don't listen. The House of Luxembourg and the Vencesloss is therein. What could I say? We're there catch. There catch, right? Obviously, not that I'm

“bias or anything like that. I do think that that's an important point because these are not love”

matches, right? These are political matches. And also, if we are talking about women who are expected

to run huge areas of one of the most important political powers in Europe, we kind of want them to

be a little bit older, no one cares. It's like, yeah, like get a 22 year old and great, fantastic. She can start working right now. You know, we don't have to worry about training a 16 year old, right? Right. And then this ends up becoming really good because John, he gets super involved in the Crusade of Nicopolis. Right. And then he gets involved in the Burgundian armoniac war over in France, right? And this makes these big opportunities for Margaret to really take center stage.

Yes, because she was pretty much left on her own. By the time her son Philip the good, you know,

his older, he was available to help. But she ran things. I mean, like you say she was older,

she was more experienced. She even would help gear up for war against some of John's enemies. That's just how good she was administratively at ruling fair play, too, because she ends up becoming so ruler, sooner than she would like, right? You know, she actually ends up seeing John fully assassinated, like not not killed assassinated in about 14 19, right? Yes. And I know that this is mentioned a lot in the book, because this is one of those incidences in history that

“had a ripple effect. And it went out throughout Europe. And that's what you see in the book”

and how it affected the lives of these women and these different entities. She ended up like declaring revenge on the armoniacs. And she swore in writing that the Do Fan, the future King Charles the 7th of France, had caused her husband's death. And she used every administrative skill and all of her considerable energy to pursue this revenge. She started out by sending letters, demanding punishment for the murders. And she would follow that with embassies and then a contingency

of her counselors. She sent wine to the French court. She sent ambassadors to her son, been assisting on vengeance. Contacts went out to the Pope, the Holy Roman Emperor, the King of Navar, the Duchess of Bourbon, the Duchess of Lorraine, other entities and the ecclesiastics in the Holy Roman Empire. She had astrologers contacted and lawyers and secretaries were employed in placing the treason's, the machinations, and the evil deeds on record. However,

as hard as she tried, none of this really worked because eventually the Do Fan became King Charles the 7th and he had the power to protect, you know, the people that were responsible.

“I think that this is a really interesting story, though, because I think what we talk about the”

end of the 100 years of war, we get so wrapped up in the romance, for example, around Joan of Arc, that we don't really see why some people might have a real problem with Charles the 7th and

Twa happens and you know, like, Henry the 50th is put forward as the King of France is because of Margaret of Bavaria pushing these contests. So it's not as easy as just saying, well, there's a rightful path of succession all of this makes sense. You know, there are huge amounts of political intrigues swirling around this at all times. Oh, definitely. I mean, she also does a great line in pushing her daughters and grand daughters out into the various courts around Europe as well,

right? Which you would think would help cement this claim to getting Charles off of the French learn, but unfortunately for her not so much. After these particular marriages that what houses do we see have Burgundin with? Yeah. Mary into it. Yeah. Well, Margaret's oldest daughter Margaret of

never's. She, she was married to the Do Fan Charles the 6th son Louis Duke of Guy N. However,

because her father had the Kabosian rebellion in 1413 and killed the Duke of Orléans in 1407, Louis was not really happy with his father and law. And so he got his marriage to Margaret and all. However, she did end up marrying the Count of Rich Maul, who was the brother of the Duke of Brittany. So she married into the house of Brittany. Her daughter Mary, a burgundy, married into the house of Cleaves. So she was the Duchess of Cleaves. Two of her daughters made really good

marriages. Catherine married the Duke of Guelders and she oh boy, she had a great story because she was not happy with her husband, taken her money and her property from her. And so she conspired with her son to kick her husband off of his Duke of Rome. And she was successful. So I love that a great story. It's my favorite. Yeah. Oh, it's my favorite. I absolutely love it when women kick their husbands off the throne on 1414. She's because they didn't live in their

money. And then listen, pay your wife, pay your wife and it won't happen. Okay. And another

“important match was Catherine's daughter, Mary, her oldest daughter, Mary, would be sent to the”

burgundy and court under Isabella Portugal's guidance. And she married James the second King of

Scots. So she married into the Stuart house. And then Catherine's daughter, Marie, Isabella Portugal arranged for the release of Charles Duke of Orleans from being a prisoner of war in England over 20 years. She got him released and she married him to Marie of Cleaves. And her son became Louis XII King of France. It's just incredible. I love all of these connections. You can make a really great pin board with string that shows you where all these burgundy and

women end up. And I mean, this is just networking, par excellence, right? By the time you have this many relatives in varying courts, it just means that you can pull strings really, really

worse at varying points. You know, you can always get somebody on side because there are just

these familial relationships. And that is how this stuff works. So it's incredible planning on her part. Yes. I had so much fun doing the family trees in the back of the book. Just this one. I love this one. Yeah. I had to stare at them for a really long time because they're so complex that it is very difficult to just kind of take them in at first glance. But I think in and of itself

“that tells you everything you need to know, especially just about the force of will that Margaret”

had. I mean, yeah, she doesn't get her way with picking the king of France as she would like, but also she gets pretty close. I mean, come on. She's almost a king mate. She is. Yes. No, listen, we've been dancing around her. You've referred to her repeatedly. Can we talk about Isabelle Portugal? I love Isabelle Portugal. She for me is one of the most exciting rulers that we've seen in Lake medieval Europe. She's actually the person that got me into

the Valois Duke's burgundy because I read a biography of her by Alieness Taylor. And I got to her because she is a great granddaughter of King Edward III of England. Her father was John the first support you go and her mother was Philip of Lancaster, the daughter of John of Gaunt. And so when I learned about her and she married Philip the good when she was in her thirties, this is a astonished

“love it. This is astonished. And then I found out about her son who I think it was mentally ill.”

This got me started in and the Valois Duke's. I mean, she is really the first kind of connection

the time you're marrying Portuguese princesses, that puts you on the map. Yeah, he had first married

“Michelle of France, the daughter of King Charles VI because he was trying to have a, you know, an”

alliance with France during the hundred years war. And then when she died, he married one of his cousin's bone of Artoa, but she died like several months after the marriage. So it didn't last very long. So then Philip sent these ambassadors to Portugal. And I have a description in there of the ambassadors going to Portugal and meeting with the king and the his sons and madam Isabelle. And it's really really quite intriguing. But this indicated that burgundy was on the map as a major political

player in Western Europe. And then when all of these nieces and nephews went to the Burgundy in court and were under Isabelle, this was a pretty big deal. And another indication is Isabelle brokered the marriage from Mary of Gailters to James II of Scotland. So we're talking about

“international diplomacy now. Yeah, I think that this is a really important point because it does”

tend to be that people, if they're not at the royal level, and even when they are at the royal level, they married the people next door, right? They married people in their particular sphere of power because that's who you want to call on, right? You know, it helps if someone attacks you if you've got the county next door on your side, right? Because you can just say, hey, can you help us out? But by the time we're marrying people from the Iberian Peninsula, it just shows how much

power the Burgundians have because it's like saying, well, we might have interest down there as well. You know, we might need who knows to put the French in a pincer movement from the south. The sort of thing, you know, it's it's kind of a statement of intent in a way, I feel. Well, Kent, we talk a little bit about the influence that Isabella has, you know, she's got,

yes, this incredible knack of matchmaking. But she also very specifically is really good at

brokering peace treaties, right? And I mean, Philip trusted her, you know, implicitly, he would send her on these missions. And so Isabelle ended up making peace treaties between England, France, and Burgundy, and essentially ending the hundred years war. And with the marriage of Charles of Orléans and Marie of Cleve, she kind of ended that, you know, the Arminiac Burgundian conflict. That's not like a combination of those two. Like I said, he trusted her implicitly.

And actually, when she would be at these congresses, the people that were there to negotiate, they didn't want to deal with Philip because he had betrayed them so many times. They insisted on dealing with Isabella. That shows you how much power she had. It just shows how people really do understand that she's a steady political hand on the Tiller. You know, at like the English just saying not Philip again, absolutely not we need to deal with a reasonable person whose word

can be kept. And you know, if that's a woman, that's a woman. Right. It doesn't necessarily matter

“what your gender is, what matters is are you a good state's person. And Isabella, it's, you know,”

I think that it's a lot more difficult to negotiate peace than it is to be an idiot and keep blundering into war over and over again. That's easy. Right. It's very, very easy to annoy people. And also, I think that it's, it's quite interesting because really the, the last part of the hundred years war, it is, you know, the Burgundians are as involved against France as anybody. Sure. And we, we tend to look at it now as a conflict of England versus France. And that's

just not the case. And also, I feel like that's really spitting in the face of poor Margaret of the very right. She would like to think this is a Burgundian conflict. You know, come on. Right. But I think also, we have to talk about, obviously, market of yours. Of course, can't get out of a conversation without talking about Margaret of York. And indeed, around history, it towers in particular in the Gamma-Neville dungeon. There is a lot of discussion of Margaret of York because of the

incredible power that she wields. And also, her valiances with annoying English court. But yes,

not only of the, you know, French and Burgundian claims, but English one. Sure. Margaret was the daughter of Richard Dick of York and Ceciline Neville. And her brothers were King Edward IV of England in Richard III. Her marriage to Charles DeBolt, the bold, was probably one of the most brilliant matches in English history. And I have to say Isabella Portugal was instrumental in making this

match. She wanted this match for her son. And for the first few years of her marriage, she was not

heavily involved in the government of Burgundie. It was only later that she started taking on a lot more responsibilities, especially when Charles was away waging war, which is what he did. And then she started pretty much to manage the entire empire. And along with this, she and Charles's daughter Mary of Burgundie had a very close relationship. It was like mother daughter, even though she was a stepdaughter, but she considered her her daughter. One of the things that Margaret did during her

“reign as Duchess is she went to England for, I think, about four months on a trade mission”

at her brother's court, Edward IV. So that shows you she has was starting to get into managing things and taking on responsibility. I get a talk a little bit about her role after Charles The Bull dies. I mean, you know, we talk lots about Charles The Bull and quite rightly, because, you know, he's one of the most influential men in Europe, but it doesn't really stop her from taking over at all. She's just like, oh, yeah, well, he's dead anyway. Actually, I think this is when she

came to the forefront. This is just my personal opinion, but I think that the way that things were handled after Charles's death, I have to attribute it to her. She arranged for concessions to a lot of the estates in the low countries that Mary of Burgundie made. There was a charter, a huge charter, where some freedoms were given back to these entities in the low countries. Because they kind of blocked it, what Charles The Bull was doing, because he was kind of heavy-handed

“in the way he ruled. And so I think she was key. She was totally key. The Mary of Burgundie was”

allowed to keep the title of Duchess of Burgundie, even though Louis XI had seized the Duchy of Burgundie. So she wasn't really ruling that any longer, but she was allowed to keep the title. And I think that also Margaret arranged for the marriage of Mary of Burgundie to Maximilian, the son of the Holy Roman Empire. And so this is where the end of the Burgundie and Empire starts, is with that marriage. Yeah, because it does end up sort of just getting absorbed into the Hobbsburg

conglomeration at that point. I mean, the Hobbsburg, if you leave them alone for five seconds, they will just absorb your land. Yes, an unfortunate truth about Hobbsburg's. But I will say that within this, Margaret plays an absolute blinder, because she's super instrumental in bringing up her grandson who will become Charles The Fifth, the ruler of the largest European mass the world

“had seen up to that. Yes, and I mean, yeah, he becomes the Holy Roman Emperor Par excellence, right?”

And Margaret plays nose, small part in his education, and getting him ready to be that part. That's right.

That's right. We never get to talk about Charles The Fifth around here, because he's technically

uh, since he's technically early modern, but I'm super interested in this. Oh, yeah, bless him. I love it. You know, the man is he's born in the lowlands. He can drill Spain. Don't worry about he's a polyglomeration. And America too. Yeah, like an absolute, I mean, now there's an Emperor. Okay, like that's say what she will about the Holy Roman Empire. I don't care what Voltaire has to say. This is, this is an empire. The major reason we end up talking about Margaret of your ground here

is because she is also a huge supporter of the pretender to the throne perken warmen. Yes. And who I, and most people, maintain fit steadfastly, was a pretender to the throne. But as some people around here are big fans of Richard III and like to pretend that perken war for his reality. Sorry, I have laughing too hard. I love to make fun of Matt. He likes to believe that perken war back is actually a claimant to the English throne,

because that lets him think that the the Princeton die and the tower, which is very sweet. But what are the arguments that he makes here is, well, why would Margaret support him otherwise?

And I'm like, because she's incredibly powerful and it's very funny to mess with the tutors.

Well, there's something else. She cares. Something else too involved. Her brothers Edward and Richard had given her grants for trade. And she was receiving income from

And it's just not that hard. It fundamentally, she's got the cash to throw behind a pretender.

She's going to go, yeah, like, let's, let's see how this boils down. And if it works out, great. She's got her trade agreements back again. It's not that much of an ask on her parts. And the upshot is huge. So of course she's going to support us. Yeah, right. But she did end up writing Henry a letter apologizing, saying she would no longer interfere. So she shouldn't have apologized in my opinion. She did nothing wrong.

“Give it a, give it a really, I think it's very, very funny to mess with the tutors personally.”

I think that's it's good thing we should see more of it.

Susan, do you have any favorite Burgundian women that we haven't gossiped about yet?

Yes, we do. Because Philip the Bull to daughter Mary, Mary the Duke of Savoy. And I have to tell you, Savoy has a really, really intriguing history. And her son, Louis, married Anne of Lucine Yon and they had, like, 13 kids. I mean, that survived, which was highly unusual. But one of her daughters Charlotte married King Louis the 11th of France. She was nine years old and he was 28. Oh, yeah. Wow. But it, it actually worked out.

And then she had the daughters Anne de Beju, who ruled France for eight years as the region. Of course. And also her daughter, Jean, who was born with disabilities, Louis forced Louis the Duke of Orleans on the future King Louis the 12th to Mary his disabled daughter. I mean, you can't make this stuff up. It's just a great story. But he ended up divorcing her and then she started a monastery and was eventually made a saint.

Another one of Anne and Louis's daughters was Bonne or Bonne of Savoy. She married the Duke of Milan, the crazy Duke of Milan. And she actually ruled Milan for a while as region for her son. So the region's see thing is, I, I say in the book that Katherine of Burgundy was kind of the

Duchess of Austria and the Count of Sufferett. She was kind of the first one to kind of rule on her own.

And so this tradition of having regions in the low countries and in other places, like Milan, started with her. But anyway, those women, I just, I just love those women. The women of Sufferett are great. Anything else that you want to talk about that I haven't brought to you into yet? I don't think so, but I think if you read the book, you will become as intrigued with the Valois Duke's of Burgundy and their women as I became. I cannot recommend this book

enough. It's a real real-page turner. And it really explicates the realities of ruling a sophisticated political conglomeration in the late medieval period. There are a lot of people who think that medieval succession is just very by the book. It's very dull. It's a men talking about men.

“And I think your book and Burgundy show that that is simply not the case. Yes. Yes. That's what”

makes it so intriguing. Just the way that they amassed all these territories in different ways, marriages, war, it's just fantastic. Bullying the women, that's one of the big ones. You're several women that get bullied in this book. I like the women who bully a little bit more. I'm afraid, you know, all the other hand, that is no shade at the ones who do get bullied. It's a bit of a snake pit to walk into. You're going to have your wits about you if you're going to be one of

the ruling women. What can I say? Yes. For sure. This has been an absolute delight. Thank you so much for coming on to talk to us. And please write another one about all the other women. Do you find that? I will. It's just like you read. Oh, this woman had these daughters. And then these daughters did this. And oh, man, it's fantastic. Thank you so much to Susan once again for joining me and thank you for listening to gone medieval

from history hit. If you were interested in some of the topics we mentioned in this episode, you might want to go back and check out our past episodes on the Hundred Years War

“and Joan of Art. Remember, you can enjoy unlimited access to award-winning original TV”

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