Lena Dunham

[MUSIC PLAYING]

Hello, everyone.

“Welcome to another episode of Good Hang.”

We have Lena down on with us today. Lena, actress, writer, producer, creator of Girls, bestselling author of her memoir, "Famed Sick." We are going to get into it with Lena. We are going to talk about Nora Efron.

We're going to talk about the productivity myth and how we're all suffering because of it. We're going to talk about whether or not one should go on great British bake-off. Is it actually worth it?

We are going to get into so much good stuff today. We had a great conversation.

And we always like to talk to somebody who knows our guest,

who has a question for our guest, and wants to speak well behind their back. And we spoke to Natalie Portman, a classy actress. Natalie, you know, are from the Black Swan from rapping on SNL, from a little indie called Star Wars.

And she and Lena are working on a rom-com together. So let's get Natalie on the horn. I believe we're talking to her from outside of the country. So, "Bunjor," or "Bunzwa," Natalie. [MUSIC]

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Hi, Natalie. Hi. Nice to see you. Thank you, too. Thanks for talking to us today.

First of all, congrats on the summer bob. Thank you, too. I mean, well, you're kind of even doing it for a while, right? Well, I have, you know, visually, like, no option with my hair. My hair is kind of, my hair just cuts itself.

Okay, so first of all, congratulations on all the things that are happening for you, including this new film that you're in with Mark Rufflow and my wife, Rashida Jones and many others. She's my wife, too, so I'm glad we shared that. Come on.

I'd like to talk about that, because we can't share her. She's a political mess. Well, I'd like to get her on the horn. And make her pick. [LAUGHTER]

That's fair. That's fair. That would actually probably be her nightmare. If we call her Shida right now, we're like, "Me, you're Natalie." Exactly.

She'll be, like, Ezra. I do want to talk about your film and working with Lena. But by the way, have you been listening to the Lonely Island to Seth Meyers podcast at all?

No, but I've heard amazing things about it.

Highly recommend their episode about your rap. It's so good and it's so funny. And it's like very in-depth about how it all came together. They're the best. And that was so fun.

That was-- it's such a time capsule, too, because it's just like a time in the 2000s. So that's it. That's the only thing. Birth of YouTube, like, so wild.

You've got short hair, so exciting. Yeah, post-head shaving. Wow, that was a grown-in. Sure. Yeah, yeah.

Man, you're not really an actress and less. You have one. Head shaving. Like, you've got to shave your head once. Have you ever shaved your head?

No. I would-- I have kind of a small head, so I would be-- That's surprising. I wouldn't guess that. Oh, really?

Thank you so much. Does my head hurt perfectly? Normal-sized. Well, you know the whole theory that the bigger the head,

“the more successful you are, do you know the theory?”

Oh, really? No, I don't. When at SNL, I'm sure this happened to you, too, when you were there, like they'll measure your head, for prosthetics and stuff like that.

So you get a sense of who has really big heads

and supposedly historically the bigger the head, the bigger the paycheck. No way. That's really funny. Now that I brought this up, you're going to start to notice.

You're going to start to notice like, wow. He has a huge head.

“Like, that's why he's running a country or whatever.”

You're going to notice it. So funny. But I mean, I feel like you're pretty successful, Amy. Thank you so much, maybe I'm a small head in success. Yeah, maybe you're an outlier.

But I do wear a young boy's hat. I can wear a young man's hat. That's very lucky. Very lucky. So I'm interviewing Lena today, yes.

And I'm kind of getting her after a lot of interviews. Like, she's been kind of on tour online, it could really out there. And I've known her for a long time. And I'm excited to talk about the different ways

that I've known her.

But I've never known her as a director.

I've never worked with her in that way. And I curious, what kind of director she is and what it was like to work with her in that way. She's the best director.

“I've one of the best, if not the best I've worked with.”

She's so on point, like the notes she gives are so, like a student and specific. And like, she pays attention to everything. And she doesn't also hesitate to give compliments to about very specific things along with like,

maybe try this different. And she's extremely nurturing and generous and kind to everyone on set at all times. Like, I would go home every day being like, how does she have the energy?

Because the amount of like generosity and kindness and thoughtfulness she puts out all day to everyone is like pretty miraculous. So the very, like, the environment on set is incredible because everyone's just so happy.

- Not a surprise to hear that. And so nice to hear that. And that's a really interesting specific that you said, which is that she will compliment something you've done.

Like, that isn't always the case.

Like, it's nice when people notice something that you try and say, I noticed it. - Exactly. And it's specific because a lot of people will be like, oh, good job.

Or like, that was a really nice take or something. But she's like, I like how you like accented the word in that, that was really funny in that line. You know, a very specific thing that she notices or like that face you made in response to Rashida

or whatever, like, that was great. Or it's not just in general. Like, you can tell she's really just watching so carefully and sharply. And her ideas are so good.

And she comes up with, like, brilliant new lines all the time, you know, the way only great comedy minds, like yourself can do. - Okay, so do you have a question for our guest today, Lena, that you think might be a good one to ask her?

- My question for her is what? Well, I have one kind of, one that I personally want to know, which is what is the best kind of pig to get? - Okay, so you're thinking about getting a pig.

- Actually can't, and where I live, but I dream about it in the future one day. And she has a lot of knowledge about this. So, and I like to hear her talk about pigs. - That is a great question because I do enjoy pigs

they are really cute. - Yeah, so Lena, what is the best pig? - And I say, get the pig. You know what I mean, even if you're not allowed to have it?

- So the problem is, is that where I rent

there's wild boars. - Oh yeah, apparently the wild boars mate with pigs, and make a very dangerous hybrid. And so it's illegal in that area. - Okay, because they're soft.

- Did not expect that delicious, this is hybrid baby pig, and I don't want to be responsible. I think I'll get kicked out of France, so. - Okay, so very smart, that is actually that's very responsible parenting,

that's responsible pig parenting. - Yeah. - And I have a thousand questions about the wild boars. - I mean, it's the main topic of conversation. (laughing)

- You never hear about like really nice boars.

“- Well, I think like domesticated boars are pigs, right?”

I'm not ready to say that. (laughing) - I don't know, we should have lean up. - We should have lean up, because the boar, the big boar is gonna come for us in a way

That I'm not ready for.

(laughing)

“- Okay, I'm gonna ask you the difference”

between boars and pigs. (laughing)

Natalie, thank you so much for doing this.

- We say you mean a lot, and before we go, would you just mind saying in French to me, have a wonderful day, Amy, and you're head may be small, but you're, but you're hard as large. To-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to-to. (laughs)

The Francis is gonna murder me. (laughs) For that. (laughs) You're gonna hear a ding-dong right now. You're gonna hear a ding-dong right now. It's gonna be four French boars. Language boars. No, thank you for doing that.

It sounds beautiful. Anything you say sounds beautiful. And especially in French, thank you Natalie. Thanks, it's really nice to see you. Thanks for having us here. Yeah, you too. Okay, you too. Bye. Enjoy the neck of her kiss for me.

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All state North American insurance company and affiliates. North Brook, Illinois. Thank you, Lena. Thank you for being here. It's really good to see you. It's really good to see you too.

I know I've missed you. And congrats. You just celebrated your 40th birthday. Have my 40th birthday. How does it feel to turn the corner? I've been trying to gather wisdom from the women that I know who have been 40

and seem to have liked it. I think it kind of rules. Yeah. I like it. I like getting older and much more than being young. You don't know anything better than different than being young when you're young. So you don't realize.

But there's like a some kind of pressure that's dissipating. Yeah. And some kind of attention that is no, that you no longer either feel you are supposed to be seeking or getting. And it's a huge relief. I said, like, sometimes it's like you're gay. I'm in the good way gaining a cloak of invisibility.

Yeah. And also, I was so, even though people seem to think of me as someone who's really like marching to the beat of my own drum or whatever, I was so dominated by shudds and musts and ought tos. And now I feel really okay going, that's not really my thing that's not for me. So glad if it's for you, not for me. I mean, even just realizing like, I don't really like to go to parties.

Dude, I don't like to go to parties. So even though I want to be asleep early, I just want to be in bed early to stay up late doing what I want to do in bed. Well, I want to talk to you about your sleep. Okay. Yeah, because I've ever thought, okay, I would love to get them.

Because we talk, we, we, we, you talk a lot about it in the book and we can't we just talk about it.

“But when you don't like going to a party, what would be your ideal gathering?”

What would be my good hand? Yeah, what to bring in to bring it back. Thank you. I'd like to hang out on the couch or on bed with a one friend, two friend, one or two. Maybe we order some food.

We hang out with some animals. And then they leave early enough that you have time to maybe like potterown, move one pile of things from one corner of the room to another. Yes. Then read a book and maybe like watch a little bit of a murder documentary and then fall to sleep. And text him and be like, that was fun.

Yes, and be like, I love being your friend. We're still together. But you're very happy that you're like both on your math. Yes, totally. That's exactly what I like or like what I hang out with my nuclear family.

And I like when we all four of us read on different tufted surfaces near each other. And then everyone sort of like puts themselves to bed. We parallel play and then everyone puts themselves to bed. I mean, I bet you get this a lot. And you talk about it a little bit in your book.

Like you present as such an extrovert, right? And I relate. I present very extroverted to. But I, from what you've written about that you are secretly quite introverted. Yes.

And it's kind of hard to you're in an extroverted business. And you like to talk and you like to have other people talk. You want to draw that out of other people too. I like to talk and I like to listen. Yeah, you love to have a conversation.

I know that about you. And that is expensive. Yes. But it takes a very long time to realize that especially if you're good at it. Well, it's interesting.

That's very beautifully put.

But and I've always found you to be exceedingly wise.

That I have always found you to be despite your adorable little blonde bob. You are a wise. I was thinking I was talking about a bob over here. You are a very wise lady. It's a bob summer after a party.

I mean, I have to stare at the wall and dissociate for 18 hours minimum. It actually leads me into my first question you, which is you've been on a press tour.

You've been talking nonstop with many people.

Your book, which is a very personal.

Yeah, book. So now you've done a bunch of these.

“What have you learned about how you like to talk about it?”

How can, like, how do you take care of yourself when you talk about it? These are such good questions. I. You've done this before. I was like, it's a strange thing to write a book about what it costs you to go on

Press tours and talk and. Yeah. Talk about yourself and then go on a press tour and talk about it. Yeah. Like maybe the most truthful thing would have been to like just, you know, drop it like a

surprise album and then go all the way in my bedroom for six months. You guys figure it out. But at the same time, I really love this is going to sound. I really love books. And yeah, but I really love books.

And I really love, I feel really lucky that I got to write it. And really, like, and then there's, and there's issues in it. Like, you know, the trying to talk about what it, how we kind of. I'm perceived and consume female celebrity, how chronic illness mental health stuff that's like feels like things that I'm excited to get to talk about in the right way.

Yeah.

“But I had to really remind myself before going out.”

I, when I was really tap dancing as hard as I could in my 20s, I went into every interview basically the way that I would have gone into like every play date when I was in second grade, which was, yeah, I hope you want to be my friend and I hope you want to invite me back.

Yeah, my mom always called it, she always, she still does.

She'll be like 50% role because she always says that I could give 50% less energy in situations. And everything will be fine. Because I have tried to give 25%. I mean, I really do feel like you're speaking to something really true, not just women, obviously, but a lot of women over deliver, they over deliver in every way.

And then they're exhausted. And then match it. And bitter. Of course. I resent the things I do to myself.

I'm going to sound like a detour, but it's okay. Which is that I have pet picks. And we're going to talk about it. To quote Lisa Renne's memoir title, you better, you better believe him. I'm going to talk about it.

So you know I'm going to talk about it. And a cool one. Continue.

“But there is a thing when you're trained when I got a pick.”

I realized, okay, this is not like a dog. This is not like a cat. I need to get some, I need to get a specialist in here to teach me how to do this. And there's a woman named Susan Magicson who is the preeminent, pick trainer and rescue artist of our time.

Excellent. And Susan, he has a zoom that she does every Monday night called for pig's sake. Where all pig owners can go on and ask questions. Susan and at her farm Ross mill farms where she takes in all the pigs that people adopted, because they thought they were so cute and little.

And then they are 200 pounds of attitude. Yeah. Pure attitude. But one of the things that happens to house pigs is that they does develop something called spoiled SPS spoiled pigs syndrome.

It is a well-known condition wherein a pig starts to, if you ask your pig, say you give your pig treats, but you don't ever ask them to do a trick for those treats. Suddenly, you ask them to do anything they're like, no, that's not the deal that we were in. And then they start to become aggressive. They start to destroy things.

They get an attitude because they've got spoiled pigs syndrome. And I told my brother about it. He was like, you mean like what you've done to everybody that you've ever dated. That's the worst. Yes, treats without the trick.

Where's the trick, babe? Where's the trick, babe? There is no trick. And he said also, it's the thing about spoiled pigs syndrome as at the end of the day, you have a spoiled pig. And it's nobody's fault, but you're own.

Oh, that's the worst. I know.

Is it always comes back to, I mean, that, I would say that is the one thing about being over 40.

Is there's just less and less ability to kind of put the blame externally like you're like, Oh, no, I know better. Thank God, I know better, but fuck. Now I know better. Okay.

It took you eight years to write this book. Yeah. How did you know when it was done? Really good question. A really good question.

So my editor Andy Ward is one of my most favorite people of Andy Ward. He lived for Andy Ward. And he's just a good, he's a good man. He's, I don't try to go around using the term girl data lot. I don't love it.

But, but he is, he is a girl, dad. He's a girl, dad, to us all. And he's a writer, dad. And he's just the greatest. And he, what I love is that a lot of people in this economy would just go.

Okay. There seems to be like enough gossip that may be people magazine. Right. And it quotes that we can get that out there. Yeah.

We can get that out there. Okay. It's ready. And he really cares.

He really pushed me to, you know, I started the book when I was three months ...

I just thought like, I'll jot off some of these experiences.

“And then they will have left my body and I'll never have to think about it again.”

Yeah. And it ended up sort of the thing you said about having to look at yourself. Yeah. I was like, this isn't going to be something that is worth the paper that it's printed on. If I don't, I have to tell the story.

And I also have tried to understand how I got there. And it turns out that takes time. And you know, you've talked about, there's, there's so many things in the book. There's about, there's relationship breakups. There's tons of stuff about figuring out like you spoke of like how to participate in the system and how the system works for you.

And against you. And there's a lot of stuff about personal stuff about people that you work with. But I'm, I'm also interested in a couple of things. But, but I'm also interested in the way you speak about like, looking for wisdom a little bit, especially in women that were a little older.

That was really, I want, I could have read a million pages about you in Nora, a front. And we talk about her on this podcast a lot.

I never had the pleasure to meet her.

But you told a really had a ball. Thank you for saying that. I would have loved to have met her. And I guess it's not really deep question. But it kind of feels like it's like, she gave you tips decorating tips.

She did. But that feels very just like very maternal. One of the ways that she showed care was she had this like incredible mental role. She had a lot of things like that. And she did a lot of things like that.

And she did a lot of things like that. And she did a lot of things like that. And she did a lot of things like that. And she did a lot of things like that. And she did a lot of things like that.

And she did a lot of things like that. And she did a lot of things like that. And she did a lot of things like that. And she did a lot of things like that. And I love what you said in your book about how you really try to not give that much advice.

Well, you just try to say like, I'm here and I'm available. Yeah. Figuring out how to be a good mentor is really interesting. And so I'm curious.

I don't think because I feel like sometimes I never want to get caught in the trap of thinking that I know better than they do.

“Like if I see somebody doing something where I think that's going to really hurt you.”

And if I'm like have the opportunity to sort of put my arm out like a seat belt. But at the same time, I don't think I could hear it when I was. I'll stage like to use a great metaphor, not my pig, not my farm. Like you can't save anybody from themselves. I mean, you know, this is some Cody stuff we're talking about.

I know when you see somebody, it's like, what are you going to be like, don't do it? Like what are you going to say, don't do that job. Don't take don't date that guy. Like we all have to make these mistakes. And nobody listens when you do anyway.

If someone has a question and I can answer it, I'm delighted. And I'm also always saying, and then you do exactly whatever you want. And I will be here sharing you on speaking of that. The way you talk about the productivity myth in your book is it really spoke to me as a gen X.

So my gen grew up with like working girl and you were your sneakers in the subway. And like hustle like, you know, and Madonna's documentary was like, I'm going to play through the pain. And Lady Gaga's documentary was like, I have fibromyalgia and I'm really suffering. I'm totally different. And both showed this like version of like how to get through what you're getting through.

But we got sold this idea that if you're not producing, you're not worthwhile. And I know you struggled with that too.

“What can you say about that or what have you learned about that through the writing of this book or just do like living life?”

Well, when I saw five foot two, the Gaga documentary that was one of the most

emotional, I remember I just kept rewinding because I'd never seen these things on camera before.

And I always thought that if people found out what was going on with me physically behind the scenes. So they'd be like, well, this one's defective.

We want a new one.

I mean, yeah. And Hollywood has not done anything to make us think that isn't that's right. The approach. I mean, we maybe can can speak about things a little bit. Maybe a producer would not feel comfortable saying out loud.

That one's defective. We want a new one. But the, but the behavior remains the same.

“And so there was a lot of time of reminding myself that all of these people's ideas of what a valuable life is.”

Yeah. What, what of the right way to spend your time of how to prioritize your health versus the work, your health versus a press junket. Yeah. Didn't have to be mine. I remember once before a job, then going so how do you how long before you get sick to usually know that it's going to happen.

And I was like, never even occurred to me that that I was like, sometimes I don't know like when it starts.

I don't know what to say. There was this idea that you could almost schedule your body's cloud. Funny you say that because my brain like what this book did is it like, which I think good writing does is it makes you think about like, wait, how am I thinking about the world? And to your point, now what I'm realizing is what I want to do to extend the conversation is be like ask people how do they do their system.

How do they work in? So that conversation you have with producers is really helpful. I used to spend a lot of time thinking I was the only thing that's that you know part of being young and and looking around and thinking that everybody's facade is what's actually going on. Like it took me a while to go. Oh, just because somebody shows up in shower shower in Lulemon. Sweat clothes with a big cup of coffee for me, the idea of the kind of woman I'd never be was always someone who like brewed her own coffee and put it in a thing in a thing in a Yeti cup.

And got to work and was like, oh, because I like to do this in the morning. Can I help you? Wow, like I was like, when did you get a bell? Like who did it? Who did it? Who did you go? Did you go to drive? Did you do it yourself? Yeah, do you have someone to come to your house? Three of your blowout. These are, yeah, there's a question.

There's these things where we look when you go, I will never be everybody has it.

Everybody has it. We all have it. And then I started to realize that's just their way of dealing. Like I, I keep a really psychotic to do list. I have this very specific to do list system that is, I won't belabor, but it's taking years from me to find a system that works. I love my system. When I finished something, I put the trophy emoji next to it for a little treat.

Yeah, little, my little treat. Because if you did a trick, yeah, I did a trick. And I get a treat. And my treat is that trophy emoji. Yeah.

And then at the end of the day, I'll carry over the things that didn't happen.

“And sometimes you have to put a different emoji that says, actually, I'm not going to do that anymore.”

That's off the list or whatever. I do want to talk about your bed. You create so much in your bed. You love your bed. I love my bed too. I'm worried about your sleep. Okay.

Talk to me about your sleep. Are you a night owl? So this is going to be involved a little bit of history, which is that we have a congenital terror. We have a congenital. It's something where we're sleep and death get equated early in childhood. My father had it. My mother had it. Maybe that's why they fell in love.

And they passed it on to my brother and me. And as children, we started to get scared to go to sleep around 4 p.m. So yeah, till today. A lot of people have that that they are very stressed about the fact that they have a good sleep. Yeah, it would be I would start around 3 p.m.

To start to say, okay, what time do you think we're going to put the pajamas on? What do you think we're going to do right before bed? Then my father would have to tell me right.

“He'd have to take me and I'd say, is it a sock night? Or is it not a sock night?”

Because I was concerned maybe I'll wake up in the night with cold feet. But wouldn't it be horrible if I woke up and they were too warm? Then yeah, my I missed Jenna waste for minutes.

It's always the greatest.

And I would say, can you tell me a list of things we're going to do tomorrow to look forward to? Because I thought if I didn't have things to look forward to, I might just pass away and my sleep. Yeah, I would love to sleep train you. I would love to have a week in your house. I'm going to wear a dress as you.

And I'm going to go, and I'm going to go, and I'm going to, and you're going to start your business. You're going to say, what kind of socks? Well, I'm going to go, no, no, no, no. If I told you what was actually happening in my bed, the level of. I'm worried about the, the various lights that are shining at me, the animals that are scooting around the night.

I mean twice a night, my rabbits will hurl themselves up into the air and just land directly on my face. Let's stop at rabbits. Let's start at rabbits. Let's ask the rabbits. And they can sleep next to the bed.

Well, the rabbit's not. So, you know, the thing about rabbits is they're, I don't know the thing about.

Of course, you don't have the things that they are crepascular, which means t...

I might have an old fashioned version of sleep, but I do think that one of the best things I did for myself is,

make sleep hygiene as important as other things. Wow. And it was very hard because like you, I grew up with a total like. I wanted to stay up late. I, like, I would have a TV in my room. Like staying up late felt like something I was good at.

I felt the same way. And I had SNL and I was a vampire. And it was like, I knew my thing when I was a teenager was that SNL reruns were on comedy central at midnight. And so I would, my parents, my bedroom was downstairs. We lived in this weird place in Brooklyn. That was above a garage. But there was one little windowless room next to the garage, which was my room.

And the landlord, JP, had left his like single guy. It was like the most modern TV of 1993. Right. And I would plug in the headphones from like American Airlines and sit this close to the television and take notes on SNL. Olina. So sad.

I mean, comedy is so important. You're not sad. I mean, that's, I mean, that's like an athlete, like just, you know, shoot a hoop in your driveway. I graduated from high school in 2004. So one thing that I did was at St. Anne's, we had student IDs and the rules that you could not come and get tickets to SNL.

“Unless you were, was it 16 or 18? I don't, it was, I think it might be 60.”

It was 60. Yeah. So I was 15 and wanted to go. Yeah. So I came up with a scheme, which was I was going to go to get act like I lost my school ID and have them reprint it and go, You guys got my birthday wrong. And then how did they move the year? And they did.

And then I held two guilty and I confessed. That's before I could ever go. I was like, started to think about this work too well. Yeah. Yeah.

This was too, I could get addicted to this. And pretty soon, I'm going to be scamming men out of their money in Florida and putting them to sleep with a little injection. I can't be on this path. You're speaking about like the fact that 2001 is 25 years ago is insane. It's insane.

There is such an incredible resurgence of your work, specifically girls, but all of your work and how people interact with your work.

Do you think it is like this? I mean, it's like people write, I don't know.

“People attach it to this big idea of nostalgia, but what, do you have a sense now of like what it is?”

Like why people are going back to that show to you, to the feeling that that time do you have a sense of why? Well, you know what's interesting? Because I know that a lot, I don't equate my early 20s. And I think when people read the book, they'll understand why. With the exception of some very specific moments, I don't like equate my early 20s with like a sense of jubilance and freedom just because it was really the moment when sort of adult life and adult pressure descended. So it's interesting and it's cozy. Like when I want to be cozy, I watch Parks and Recreation, or as my husband calls it Parks and Recreations.

Oh, with an ass. Yeah, and once I said, you know there's no S on the end, you're wrong. But, um, and I knew that I, um, I think maybe I don't know this, but I knew that I loved him because I left my dog with him for the day. Well, I was on set and it was a big thing for me to be like, oh, I'm going to leave her with you. Oh, no, with this dog Sarah, let's see what happens. Yeah. And I checked texted to check in and he said, we're just watching some Parks and Recreations.

She loves John Ralphio. And I went, okay. Okay. That's a good. Okay, you can stay. You can stay. I would watch Parks and Recreations to relax. But the idea that, and to me, I'm like girls is like a stress bomb. Like it's like watching. Let's talk about this. I agree. Girls can be a stress bomb.

It's stressful show. I feel like when I'm watching girls, I'm like watching one of those movies where somebody has like 10 minutes to disseminate a bomb.

“Like it's really, really relaxes people. And I think it reminds them of a time.”

It reminds them of time in their lives and a time in the character's life. And a lot of people say to me, people who are on the old on the more 40 end will go like, I lived in, I lived off the Laura Mer stop when I was 23 with my two best friends from college. And you know, now one of them's dead and one of them's her public. You know, like they're looking back at a moment that felt really good and alive to them. Yeah. And I love that they think that the girls are cozy and feel like they're their friends like that.

Yeah. And also all I ever wanted to make, I always was sad, like I'm never going to be the person who makes cozy TV that makes anyone want to curl up.

But so if it is that for people, I also think there's something even though the show does have social media, even though the show, you know, there's there's like a conversation in the first episode. And I've never watched girls since we finished. So I really, you've never done a re-watch. I've never done a re-watch. I just, I guess I'm always thinking, and I don't do for watch things.

Do I re-watched parks and rack with parks and recreations with my kids?

I have re-watch girls because it is just a really like concrete way to be more gentle to yourself like all the stuff that you would maybe be critical of kind of goes away.

“At least it did for me and you just remembered the feeling, like, I didn't even remember what happened. I was like, what happens here? Does Leslie win?”

Like, I couldn't even remember the fact, but I could remember the feeling of making the scenes. Yeah, it was like a body feeling. And it made me feel grateful.

It made me feel really grateful. Nice. And I, I wonder, I would wish that for you. I don't know if you will feel happy.

Maybe, I think, I mean, I love those people and I love that. And there were so many wonderful times. You know, after Andrew Reynolds read the book, he was like, it was like, it was made me sad at some points because I felt like we were having so much fun. And then I read it and didn't feel like you were having fun. And I was like, no, when we were on screen, that was the best thing ever. That was my, like, that was my escape from everything else that was happening in my mind. I was felt like I could open a door into being those people.

“And I remember feeling like this, and it's only to remember really felt this way because I'm not like a mystical actor in this way.”

But I just, I felt like my whatever Lena's problems aren't going away. And like the, the problems of these particular people, which feel sort of light and in consequential at the end of the day.

To go over. And so I was like, no, I always felt joy when I was with you. I always felt joy when I was doing linked hands linked with these people doing this thing. It was everything that came with it. That was hard. What do you think people who write about girls or wrote about girls got wrong about it? At the time it was like there was two ends of this spectrum, which is their people who thought we weren't in on the joke at all. Like that we were thought that we were making like, you know, a pressing film about like the concerns of America's neediest population. And that we just were really missing the mark.

And then there were the people who thought that I was like so in on the joke that I remember they're being conservative commentators who were like, actually this is a, you know, this is she's she's hearing. Yeah, woke millennials and she's taking them down. And I was like, actually something can live totally between those places, which is we take them totally seriously and we totally get what's funny about it. Yeah, people underestimate young women all the time. Yes. And it was funny. It was like if if they people didn't like the show was my fault if they did like the show was the fault of someone else. It was just yes it was and really looking back.

Now if somebody people come to me a lot and we'll go like someone saying something mean about me on the internet. What do I do and I was go just don't look at it. Yeah, just don't look at it. But I couldn't take that advice that of course. That's why it's when you were asking like how do you like talking about the book. How do you not like talking about the book. And then I circled away from that. I'm going to circle. Yeah back is sometimes people ask me, you know, why do you think people felt this way about your why do you think people why do you think people had a strong reaction. You know, it's all to be like not really my problem.

Not only is it not your problem. It's not your business. How about that? That's the way people think about you is none of your business. It's not your business though. It's not your business. It's truly not it's just like and that is I'm checking into the hotel under the name none of your business. Also a book written by one. When you're writing the characters for girls, did you think it was a show about female friendship? I thought yes. I thought it was a show about female friendship. But I was like it's a show about like the fact that female friendship is actually.

And until you figure out what's isn't your business, it's a thorny torture escape. And yeah, because the thing about women is I'm obsessed with them and part of why I'm obsessed with those are some scared of them because they're too smart. I see, do you know what I mean? You might not feel that way. I don't I don't but I understand what you mean because it is.

“I think it's very honest to bring up the fact that complicated people, interested and complicated people often provide complicated, interesting like relationships.”

And there were times when I would watch girls and would be like, are they friends? The answer was often no. I mean, they were holding on to an idea, part of the reason they were friends because sometimes when people are young, they hold on to certain friends, not just because of the good feelings. Because they get to feel superior or they get to feel, they get to feel like in contrast, they're winning or they get to feel like they're shinier because they're next to the pretty present whatever it is.

You're still like, you're not when you're in the 20s, you're not even that far out of high school. Yeah, you don't even haven't even yet let go of all that stuff. And now this isn't saying I have amazing my female friends are incredible. I'm not afraid of them, but I also in my there's something about the ways that women can see each other and know each other and that can feel very exposing.

The thing that's really nice is now I feel that the majority of my female rel...

I haven't had to remember once having a fight with a girlfriend in in our 20s and we were like going back and forth in these long point to point now, I will not if someone raises points with me, I will not be addressing the points like I'm not going. You're not bolding the points and then here are my responses to that. I'm not a lawyer, I'm not going to make notes on your doc, you sign and send it back to you. That's not what's happening, but we were doing that. And I remember showing it to like a boyfriend outrage and he was like, I don't even know what I mean, it's like you guys are in like a scholastic writing competition and you're each trying to write the best essay about why the other one is bad at being a friend if you feel this way.

“And then and then moments later everyone's apologizing going, I didn't mean any of that and it's like well that was a lot of energy to expand on this creative writing exercise.”

Like the kids say, say less say less say less say less say less say less say less someone told me recently that if somebody writes you, I mean have you ever seen that mean where someone's like congrats or sorry that happened to you, I don't know I'm not trying to read all that. Somebody writes somebody really said yes, I don't know trying to read all that. Yeah, I'm not trying to read all that. I'm not trying to read all that. I'm always plaza on the set of parks used to take my phone when I was texting someone and she would erase it and then just write now.

I feel like, oh, as you could say that too. I could just say, well, there's a big thing which is my brother taught me he's like, do not ever reply with more lines than the person wrote you.

It's funny your parents, you know you talk about it in your book, you have really successful artist parents who are in that art world, which is talk about it like in the rooms that are small. I mean, there's like high fashion, there's like hyper intellectualism, there's and there's the art world that they both live in. It can only get smaller if you're like well the contact improv dance community that came out of Oberlin College where Jenna and I went. It's pretty easy. I improv contact dance, babe, that is wide open.

Anybody can get in there.

“I improv, do you just gotta keep one point of contact between your bodies for the whole time?”

I would such a purpose, like anything that's like, we have to touch each other. You're like why? I remember I went to one of the classes when I was at Oberlin because I used to do like a column for the Oberlin great shout out to all you great writers out there. And it was like, I'd go and try things on campus. You and I thought of them. Oh, I'm going to do cap aware of today and I went and did contact improv. And basically my thesis was like, perverts like that was my last because yeah, I remember they were like, okay now everybody remove one article of clothing of your choice and everyone was like pants, you know, right away.

I mean, that is the thing about the 2000s is you look back and you're pretty much like you could just take a stamp to pretty much everything and be like perverts. Yeah, but before we get off girls when now we're getting into the weeds, but when Jessa betrayed Hannah. Yeah, that was hard. That was hard for a lot of people. That was hard for. Jemai, I didn't want to do it. I bet. Jemai, I'm like, don't make me do this. I bet it's a real villain move.

“But what it allowed us, I think in the writing was it allowed us to really see Hannah in a way that we hadn't yet.”

And also it was just like the end of a cycle of story.

I also think that part of the reason that the way she justified that to herself in the moment is that she was like, well, Hannah hasn't maybe always been the most considerate friend to me.

And she might have had Hannah might have this idea. Here's what friends don't do. They don't sleep with your boyfriend. Your ex boyfriend, and they don't. I don't know, you know, they don't sleep with your ex, but we really don't push you in front of a car and everything else's fair game. And she's like, no, you've cut away at our friendship with all of these other little moves and the other things because Hannah doesn't see herself as a person with any power. She doesn't realize that she's capable of hurting anybody else's feelings.

She's the world is happening to her. And I hope that as she grows, she realizes that actually she is often happening to the world. And I just want to say kudos to you for that moment, not only because it was audacious writing and just good moving the story forward, but we were paying attention to Jessica and Hannah. Like that's who we were caring about.

It's really nice. And it's, you know, my, when I've been friends through 11. So it was, it was always really interesting when we got to really dig into the story together.

Because often we were just, you know, in the, in the same room at the same party raising our eyebrows at the same thing. And what we got to do those big chunky emotional scenes together was amazing.

I do remember her when I was directing the scene where she and Adam kissed fo...

And I'd say, I'm not, he's not really my boyfriend. I'm not really going to get mad at you. Right. He's actually just acting acting and so are we at the end of the day. Yeah, neither of us kissed each other's ex-boyfriend. So we're going to be fine. Yeah. And probably even if one of us did kiss each other's ex-boyfriend, we'd be fine. And you were like, put on this Patagonia lightweight.

Put on this Patagonia lightweight called this man to paint your walls and we're going to be fine. Yeah. Okay. I want to get your hot takes and a few things. Okay. These are completely random things. But I feel like you have strong hot takes that I would love to hear about. Okay. Great. And there's no right or wrong. Okay.

TikTok. I spent your amazing on TikTok. And thank you. Welcome to TikTok. I've seen your TikToks. My algorithm knows who I am, obviously. And a lot of them are from your bed. But what I like about TikTok, I mean, I'm sure like everything in the culture is changing.

But what I like about it is it seems like it's allowed a lot of people to find like minded folks and to find people who are.

I always see like a woman alone in a farmhouse feeding grizzly bears from a pan who's found her friends and found your friends.

“And also I think there's just good comedy there's I think there's good comedy there's good comedy there's good educational content.”

And you know, I don't want to be watching someone like sell me a frackle stick, but I do. And my TikTok algorithm when I still had it was women with pigs. And I like when there's us we're in Australia where sex work is legal. I love to watch women count their money and talk about their experiences. And there are money counters.

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. And I love the ASMR nail. Also I like the women who work at like exotic dancing clubs.

And are at the front and they're and you don't see the patrons. Yeah. But you see them deciding who's going to come in. Yes. I love that too.

I love women at work. I love women at work. I love women at work in all way. I love and sometimes what's hard is you'll watch someone over time and they start really authentic. And then you see like a little taste of I mean this is what it's time.

I look a little taste of him makes us all sick. It's not it's very true.

shorter question diacoke yes or no, do you know the hit the kids have been calling it fridge six.

Yeah. Love it. I love diacoke. I don't think it's an everyday thing. Agreed.

My mother to treat. It's a treat. If you do a trick. Do a trick. We get a diacoke.

“When I my mother every time she gets a mammogram.”

And since she was 40 she. Every time she gets a mammogram. She gets a New York City hot dog and a diacoke. You want our hot dog and a diacoke. So it's her yes.