Hi guys, it's Tony Robbins, you're listening to Habits and Hustle.
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Welcome to Habits and Hustle, where I sit down with the world's biggest thinkers, entrepreneurs
and experts, to uncover the habit, strategies, and mindset shifts that actually move the needle in your health, happiness, and success. And today I'm sitting down with Matthew Hussie, a relationship coach, best-selling author, speaker, and host of the Love Life podcast. He has spent nearly two decades helping people navigate dating, heartbreak, commitment,
and what it actually takes to build a healthy relationship. In this episode, we get into why we consistently overvalue connection, how chemistry can feel
“more important than it actually is, and the four levels of a relationship.”
We also talk about why someone cannot be your person while actively choosing not to be with you, and how we can end up grieving in imagined future more than the relationship itself. I love this episode. Matthew also explains how holding onto what could have been can become a form of avoidance,
and why moving on requires deliberate action instead of simply waiting for your feelings to disappear. This conversation will make you rethink chemistry, compatibility, commitment, heartbreak,
and the stories you create around relationships that never became what you hope they would.
But Matthew shares in this episode will help you separate connection from compatibility and recognize when you are attached to a potential instead of reality. Like I said, this episode has it all, so let's dive in. Before we dive into today's episode, I want to thank our sponsor Momentus. When your goal is health span, living better and longer, there are very few non-negotiables.
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The certain qualities that people are typically drawn to, right? Charm, bright, like being funny, charming, like all those things, but those are usually very surface, topical things that don't really serve us, right? Like as a girl, I'm attracted to guys, or who are like that, right? Confident, funny, charismatic.
A lot of times those guys don't make the greatest partners, though. They've learned how to be a great sales representatives. That's what happens a lot, and now I am speaking for like, because me, like, women talk about this all the time, and I bet you, similar to how you probably were, right? When you were saying you were a bat, like, you probably weren't like an asshole to, you
know, you were probably very nice, intentionally, intentionally, you probably work, I think you're in your paragraph, and you first open the book, you were charismatic, you were nice, you were chivalrous, you know, you did all the nice things to make someone want to like you, even though you knew that you're probably not the greatest partner.
“I think that's what people get drawn to, right?”
Is this like superficial level, and it's very hard for people to separate that from something more, and then you also write about the fact, so this is a couple of, two, a prong question, which I love when you said this, that connection isn't what you should be striving for.
It's a compatibility, because I think we always say to each, you know, well, we have
such a great connection or the connection, the connection, like you always hear the word connection. It's like the big hash tag in relationships, but like the truth of the matter, just because you do have a connection, and you, like, this is the part of the book, I was like, reading like, like, for roachously, it's really, it's not matter.
It's like, it's about, are you guys compatible? And people, again, miss, mistake those two, can you talk about why and just expand upon those
Things?
Because I think that a lot of people, like, that would resonate with on both sides.
“Well, firstly, to your point about all those attractive qualities, we have to go a little”
deeper in terms of what it is we're looking for. It's fine to like someone who's charming, it's fine to like someone who's funny or sexy, or any of those things, but that can't be all you need. - Right, and it's not. - And it's not. - For less than love or less than like compatibility.
- Well, you can desire someone, but we have to start separating what makes someone desirable from what makes them a great partner. And it has to be as much a criteria for who we invest in, that they are a great partner as they are desirable.
It can't be, you know, I always say to people,
it's fine to want chemistry, but why don't you want kindness as much as you want chemistry? Why is it that chemistry keeps winning over someone who's decent, or someone who's kind, or someone who's thoughtful, or someone who's loyal,
or empathetic, or consistent? You have to suspect yourself. If you have really, really high standards for chemistry and really low standards for how someone treats you. That's the problem.
It fine won't those things, but never at the expense of someone's character, or the way they show up, the way they invest in you. That has to be, the price of entry has to be the deeper things that you really need.
And by the way, how do you get the bravery or the courage or the resolve to make those things your price of entry? You look at relationships you've had in the past where you really wanted to hold on to someone,
where you thought they were so amazing, where you thought I can't lose this person.
“And you remember that whatever it was you were missing”
in that relationship made you dreadfully unhappy. It made you miserable. Even when you were telling yourself,
I'll never be able to, I can't lose this person.
It actually made it intolerable to stay. Absolutely. And when you know what that was, maybe you didn't feel seen by that person, maybe you felt like you never got their time,
maybe you felt like they really trusted them, or that they were never really in the relationship. So whatever it was you were missing, made it hell to be there. We may not have admitted that at the time, 'cause we're in those relationships.
We have to sell ourselves on staying. Right, we justify behavior. Yeah. And we've kid ourselves about how happy we are. Right.
But when we leave and we look back, you go, oh my God, I was a wreck. I was an anxious, sad wreck in that relationship for so long. And when you realize, when you remember and connect to how painful that was, you don't need self-worth
to decide that you'll never again be in a relationship
without those core things. You just need to know how much it hurt last time. And how you could never do it again, regardless of how charismatic or sexy someone is.
“So that's what I want to say about that.”
In terms of the connection piece, we consistently overvalue connection. It is such a seductive thing to find someone who we like, who likes us back. That is like, it feels like the holy grail.
When we find it, it feels like lightning in a bottle. How often do I like someone? Let alone, they like me. Oh my God, it feels like the most important thing on Earth. But when someone, when the person we have this with
is telling us they don't want a relationship, or they're not sure about us, then it counts for nothing. It's not important in the book I talk about there being four levels of importance in a relationship. And it's so important because once people have this model,
they never look at their life the same way again. The first level of importance for any situation in your life, and everyone listening to this can imagine, as you think of someone in your life, maybe you're struggling with, or you're hung up on,
or you can have in your head, which one of these levels you think you're at? Level one is admiration. That's just where you have someone that you think is great. They may not even know you exist.
You just think this person's heart, whatever, something about them. Level two is mutual attraction. That's the level we're talking about when you feel a connection, whether it's a deeper connection, whether it's physical connection,
you feel that mutual attraction with them. That's the level that's really dangerous. Level three is commitment. The reason level two is really dangerous is because it feels really important.
But without level three, without someone actually saying, "Yes, I want you. I want to be with you." It's worthless. It's utterly worthless.
It's like two people discovering a plot of land together, and it's a beautiful plot of land. You could build the most amazing house there, but it's still just a plot of land. A relationship is the thing you build on that land.
- Right.
- You can't kid yourself that the plot of land is the thing.
It's not, so commitment is the commitment
“to actually build something on that plot of land,”
and then even commitment on its own isn't enough. You need compatibility and compatibility is level four. Do we work together? Okay, we have mutual attraction. We've both said yes to a relationship,
but does this work? Do we share a vision for our lives? Do we have lifestyles that are compatible? Do we have a shared moral compass? Do we think the same way about life?
- Right. - Do you feel it's okay to lie all the time, and I really value honesty? Do you like to go out till 5 a.m. every night, and I really enjoy the morning?
- Right. - Okay, if that's true, can we still find quality enough quality time together outside of the night time in the morning that we can sustain a relationship?
Like compatibility matters. And my whole thing is this. If you have mutual attraction, commitment, they're saying yes, and you are too. And you have compatibility, it works.
- Right. - And then the love of your life gets taken from you in a horrible accident, that's tragic. That is a real tragedy. But if you're in level two,
and the person that you say is your person is walking this earth, there's still here, ordering things on Amazon and then using not to be with you, that's not tragedy. - No.
- They could be with you, and they're not choosing not to. So we have to lose the story that this person is my person. They're not your person. It can't, someone can't exist, and they're somewhere right now,
and not choosing you, and they're your person. It's a story we have in our mind.
“It's not reality, and I think that that is a tremendous help”
in getting over people, because you may still need to grief, but my friend, I don't know if you know David Kessler, the grief expert, one of the leading grief experts, he said to me, grief is a result you didn't want. - Right, that's a good, yeah.
- And when someone you thought would become more, says they don't want more, that is a result you didn't want. So it may still require grief, but it's not the grief of I've lost my soulmate.
- Right. - It's the grief of disappointment
that this person never became my soulmate,
even that I thought they were, and it turns out they weren't, and I'm grieving the loss of that future, and the idea that I had about this person and this relationship, what I'm not doing is living in the chronic grief of thinking that person
is the love of my life and they're still out there. That's the kind of grieving that doesn't go away, and I have watched the extremes of this, where people 20 years, the years on are still talking about a person who was in their life 30 years ago,
that they've never gotten over. And I wanna say you are locked in a story right now that is the great tragedy of your life, if you're not careful, is gonna be giving over your life to this fake story. - Because there's stuck in level two,
which is the connection part, right? - Because you're valuing this idea. - Right, the story in the end, in your head. - Not the reality, if it was the reality, it would be the reality, you would be with this person.
We have this great story, I love the movie Titanic. I will cry every time in that. - Yeah, I love it too. - But if you really stand back, there's something a little odd about the idea
that a woman in her, I don't know if she's 90s or over 100, I can't remember, but she's pretty old. - Pretty old, I think she's almost 100, I think she's 100. - Yeah, yeah. - Still telling this story about a guy
that she knew for about five days on a boat. - I guess you're right, but I think I totally-- - Like she didn't even know him. - She didn't know him. - She didn't know him.
“- But I think that's why that part of the book,”
I think is so good because I really believe that that number two, that connection part, is where most people do get stuck. - Yes. - I mean, I really do believe it.
Like, going through it, like, I'm married now, whatever.
But there's always these people that you have this thing with
that things never turned out for one reason to care. Circumstance, that I don't know if it's because, and I'm almost everybody I know gets stuck in this area at some point. - All of us.
- And it depends on, like, either it depends
On the length of time, maybe somewhere still stuck in it.
But that's why it's so resonated, so strong.
“And I think it depends on, it's a kind of opportunity”
or potential that was never turned or seen out.
- So that's the great, the unhatched eggs of our life. - Right. - You know, I think that, if you've seen this new show one day. - Oh no, what's that? - The big new show on Netflix.
It's like a very popular show at the moment. I'm not gonna give away any spoilers, but... - So watch it, is it worth it? - Oh, it's a lovely show, and it's extremely engaging and entertaining.
- Oh, yeah. - And it, it meant my wife loved it. But it's a story about these two friends who, or these two people who meet in college and this kind of constant, you know,
will they won't they tell us? - Oh, yes, okay. - And it's a very dangerous story, because you see, you know, how someone can give up so much of their life.
- Yes. - Like giving someone so much real estate in their mind. And in TV shows and movies that can pan out nicely. - Yeah. - But in real life, bad bets are just bad bets.
They're not, you know, you wouldn't take your life savings and put it on a, you know, one in a thousand bet. But it's like we do that in our love life all the time.
“- But do you think people are doing it as a distraction?”
- That's an interesting point. I think it can be a form of avoidance. - Yep. - I think it's a way to not be an active participant in our own life.
It's a way to not be involved. Because it fulfills something. - Yeah. - It fuels fantasy. It's like a fantasy is what it is.
- It's a fantasy and it's safe. I can talk about it from the comfort of my bedroom and it requires me to risk nothing. It lives on as this endlessly fascinating, mysterious thing.
It never has to disappoint me,
even though ultimately it's the great disappointment of our lives that we've given up on the real thing. And also, like you said, hours and literally if you kind of add up all the hours that people spend on this area in their life, it'd probably be like year.
It's a nice event. - Yeah, what people give up decades to these ideas and these stories and it's really tragic. It's easier to nurture that egg. - Totally.
- That never hatches, then to go out and live. Because by the way, living is often, it's messier and it's, you know this, with people in business, it's easier to talk about an idea of a great concept you have. To go out and actually put time and energy into it.
- Yep. - It's harder. - I look writing is the same way. - My analogy actually. - My writing coach said to me,
never expect what you put on the page
to be as good as how it is in your mind. - Yeah. - It is a kind of poor version of this perfect idea you have in your head and you're just doing your best to try to get as close to that as possible.
“But you have to accept the fact that it is a,”
this thing that you end up on the page with is often a very disappointing version of this thing you have in your head. But at a certain point in life, you have to decide and my a real writer or am I someone who talks
about this great book idea they've got. And in our love life, we can either be in the game and active and involved or we can hold on to this perfect on hashtag and talk about how great it would have been or could be a phone.
And it comes down to do you wanna live a real life? - That is seriously such a great point and that's a great analogy too, right? 'Cause 99% is perspiration, right? Like 1% is the idea in business, right?
Like I don't want to talk, you know, it's fun to fantasize and think and dream, right? But like the sweat, like the sweat comes in the actual hard work and it's-- - As it does in a marriage, you know,
you look at whenever I hear of love at first sight, I kinda think what an insult to marriage. - Yeah, right? - You know, the marriage is this path that people take that is, it takes guts
and it takes effort and it takes two people being, you know, in this marathon together and figuring it out as they go and constant, you know, doubling down on their commitment to the relationship and to making it as good as it can be
and going through hard times together and the days where it's just rough or the periods of life where there's financial instability and you find a way to stick together or illness and you're taking someone to the hospital and you're like,
that's the guts of a relationship. - When someone says they were my person and they've known them for three months and we get wasting my time.
- Now, most of what a relationship is.
You've never seen from that person.
“How could you have seen it from that person?”
- It's impossible then how do you get over a relationship you never had 'cause this is what it really is. People up at how do you, what's the tactical way to get over a relationship that you never had?
Is it just to, again, be cognizant of it
and act differently, do like start dating people? - You put in tension behind moving forward in your life, like real intention. It's like a breakup. There's a grieving period and everyone knows
it's going to go through a terrible breakup.
There's a zombie-like period where you're just good for nothing.
“But a certain point, you have to put in tension”
behind moving on. You can't be passive about it. It is a war of attrition against those feelings. It is waking up one day and deciding,
let me get everything out of this fucking apartment that has a connection to them. Because it is not helping me to see that picture over there or to see that momentum we got from that timing carbo or to get, I don't need that stuff around me.
Let me get them off of my social media. Why am I still following them? Why haven't I muted them already so that I don't see their posts? Why am I still talking about them with friends?
Why come to think that when my friend comes to me for lunch and says, oh, you know, they've started dating so and so or whatever? Why am I not telling my friend, hey, I love you. But I know you to just stop talking about them
because I don't want to have them as a conversation anymore. They are not a topic of conversation that's relevant to my life anymore. So it would really help me if we stop talking about them all together. We can talk about anything else in the world.
It doesn't help me to know this information.
“You have to be intentional about moving on”
and a lot of people are not willing to be intentional about moving on because it's harder to go and live a real life.
