Introducing: Government That Doesn’t Suck

moment to tell you about another show from rewind studios that I know you'll love.

“It's called Garmin that doesn't suck hosted by professors Lindsey Kormack and Greg Jackson”

from History that doesn't suck. Ever wonder how the weather forecast on her phone is so accurate, or how your mail still gets across the country for less than a dollar, or who actually built the highway you drove on this morning.

Each episode tells the surprising story of an American institution that you'll never look at the

same way again. Listen to and follow government that doesn't suck every other Monday, an Apple podcast, and Spotify, or watch video episodes on YouTube. Hi listeners, it's Dr. Bot. I've got a bonus for you today. If you're enjoying Hidden History that I know you'll love this new podcast from rewind studios, it's called government that doesn't suck hosted by professors Lindsey Kormack

“and Greg Jackson from the hit podcast history that doesn't suck.”

You probably don't think of the roads under your feet, the weather forecast on your phone, or the letter in your mailbox as part of the government. But they are.

I most of us have no idea or any of it came from.

Each episode of government that doesn't suck tells the surprising story of an American institution from the origins of the internet to the National Park Service to the GI Bill. You'll hear the story behind the institution plus a conversation with an expert who knows it inside and out. I have an episode for you to listen to right now. If you like what you hear, follow government that doesn't suck on Apple podcasts and Spotify,

or subscribe on YouTube for full video episodes. There's also link to the show in this episode's description. New episodes release every other Monday. This is rewind. If we want to keep liberty, we're going to have to have some way of figuring out how we navigate those differences of opinion instead of saying no liberty for anyone. Founding father might drop. Welcome to government that doesn't suck. I'm your professor, Greg Jackson.

And I'm your professor, Lindsey Kormack. And today is episode one of our new podcast. But before we go any further, maybe we should actually explain who we are to new listeners. I'm Greg Jackson. I am best known as the creator, head writer, and host of the podcast history that doesn't suck. I am the author of Been There Done That. How our history shows what we can overcome. And I also teach at Utah Valley University where I'm the America 250

Professor in the Center for Constitutional Studies. So I am a complete nerd. That is um,

“I think that's pretty much why I just said. Well, I guess I'm equally nerdy. I'm Lindsey Kormack.”

I have a PhD in government from NYU. And I'd say I'm best known for a little database that I've been running since 2010 called DC in box, which is every email that every member of Congress sends in their official capacity to their constituents as e-newsletters. But more recently, I wrote a book called How to Raise a Citizen and why it's up to you to do it. And I met Stephens Institute of Technology in Hoboken, New Jersey. Yeah, yeah, we're uh, we're nerds.

It's February 11, 1972. We're in Elkins, West Virginia. We're college student LMAe Thompson is waiting for her right. Outside, the thermometer is hovering around freezing and a few inches of snow still cover the ground. In other words, it's a pretty typical winter's day around this mountainous part of the country. But hey, it's Friday and the star of the weekend and for Ella, this particular day promises to be anything but typical. The freshman is on her way to the County

Court House. No, she's not in trouble. In fact, she's about to experience her recently guaranteed constitutional right. While she waits, let me catch you up on what's going on. Earlier this morning, the Nixon White House gave the U.S. Senator from West Virginia, Jennings Randolph. The honor of

securing the nation's first 18-year-old to register to vote. See, ever since World War II,

18-year-olds have been of age to be drafted, and Jennings has been one of the leaders of the old enough to fight old enough to vote to bait. Over the course of three decades, he introduced legislation to lower the voting age 11 times. Now, at last, the 26th Amendment to the Constitution has been ratified. The legal voting age has been lowered from 21 to 18. The question is, who will be first? The well-connected Senator knew exactly where to find

a next-generation voter, nearby Davis and Elkins College, where he had once been a member of both of the faculty and board of trustees. When the phone call came into the office,

And look, here comes the Senator now. He picks Ella up, and as they drive along the icy road,

the two strike-up of conversation. Ella shares that her brother, Robert, was drafted and began service the month before his 21st birthday, when he would have been eligible to vote. Less than two years later, he was killed in action and Vietnam. Only one day before he was to return home. The sad irony on so many levels. Specifically, the 26th Amendment Jennings had fought so long to pass, had come too late for honor. He was old enough to fight and die for his country,

but not old enough to vote. Then, another revelation. Ella tells the Senator she's planning to register as a Republican. After all, her family are Republicans. Jennings is a lifelong Democrat, and she worries, this might embarrass him. The Avunkular Senator smiles back and tells her that's beside the point. Exercising her constitutional right in whatever way she sees fit, that's important. That's exactly the point. With that disclosure out of the way, the short drive

to the courthouse comes to a bluster end. The 70 years younger Senator, and 18-year-old Ella, hold on to each other as they cross the slick pavement. Now inside the county clerk's office,

Ella may signs the registration papers. She's the first of 11 million U.S. citizens

between the ages of 18 and 21 to register to vote, but for Ella, the registration isn't about politics. She'll later recall. I was honored to do it because my brother had been killed in Vietnam, and he had not been able to register to vote. So I feel I get with something that I did for him too. I love that story. It's a relatively recent even in U.S. history that illustrates how we the people can make our union more perfect. It reminds me that every generation has the opportunity

to be a founder because the work of building our nation is always unfinished business. And since the passage of the 26th Amendment, the youngest generation can assert its right to vote

“and participate in the construction rather than the destruction. Right, Lindsay?”

Well, I think in a time in which everyone's hearing that government sucks and everything's bad, and it's just going to get worse. We are offering a little bit of a different way to approach this sort of subject. You damn right. You know how strongly I feel about, look, and I say this without any dismissal of the very real issues and concerns that people are feeling across the political spectrum, right? But what we have is actually a pretty special thing, and it works a lot better,

both at its peaks and at its lows than we sometimes realize. The way I come at it is government's going to happen to us, whether we like it or not. Politics is going to happen to us, whether we like it or not. We are way better to navigate it and bend the ends to our will if we understand what's happening. And so part of that is just figuring out the rules, but another part of that is looking back on when government has worked in the past and kind of seeing, ooh, how can we get something

“that feels functional? That we like the outcome of by looking at how we've done it before?”

You know, obviously you're speaking my language there, you're tapping into history. I mean, this is America 250 this year, right? And the Constitution isn't that old, but it's sure is fairly close. We're just going to go ahead and lean into that whole 250 thing. We've gotten a lot right, and you know, the framers they embraced that this wasn't a perfect union. They called it a more perfect union. They realized that they were upgrading that the Constitution was the two point

over version of their union from the articles of Confederation. That sucked, okay? And we've continued to improve it from there. One of the most brilliant things about that document and about what America is, the American experiment is this idea of government by the people. We say that in that trite phrase just gets lost. I think it loses its its specialness because it just rolls off of our tongue from kindergarten and on. But you know, one of the things I love the most about reading

the the Founder's words is how much they talk about the right of a generation to alter or abolish.

And you know, that isn't to say that radical answers are always required. But the understanding that

it is incumbent upon every generation if you're going to have government by the people

“that they continue to hold that right. And I think it really says something about how special this”

is that for over two centuries, the American people have only chosen to alter. And we have, right? We've amended the Constitution. And now again, how to myself. I realized that Lindsay we're going to actually get into a full on, you know, episode here. But I'm just very excited

about this country and the ideas that it's built on. So both in terms of this episode and this podcast

as a whole, I'm just thrilled to be doing this with you. I'm very happy to be doing this with you as well. And I think there is something truly worth celebrating as we get to the 250th Declaration of Independence Birthday. And I kind of think about this not so much as cheerleading for the United States government. But as a way to reflect on when it gets things right and celebrating them. When we think about the stories that our children here that we see on the media,

it's usually when something goes wrong. When there's a failure. When there's something that shouldn't have happened. But there's so many things that we get right. And we just don't focus on those stories. It's sort of like, Yelp reviews where you're far more like lead to leave a Yelp review if it's like, oh, I had a horrible time versus like, oh, this was pretty good. The food was nice.

“And now I've sustenance for the rest of the day. That's what I see this as is vividing and focusing”

on the times in which it does go right or there is a benefit or it even goes great. So Lindsay, I guess you could say we are here to give not exclusively, but among the things we're going to do is we're going to give some much-needed five-star Yelp reviews to those often forgotten restaurants that are agencies and institutions within our government. Or at least some four stars. You have mentioned before, and I'm going to butcher it. So you're going to explain it properly

after I completely massacre your idea. You've basically framed people today citizens as founders

themselves. Yes, I think about this a lot. So in the work that I've been doing in the last few years, is I've been around a lot of middle school children, a lot of elementary school children, high school children, and oftentimes they are taught about the founders, and they hear, you know, there were these very few men who had a lead ideas. They came together and they built this thing isn't that great. And I understand that that's a story we should care about, and it's a story we

should tell. But it casts us as sort of spectators in historical theater play, where as I like to think of us as all founders. And so when I'm working with children, after we talk about who the founders were, I point to them and I say, what kind of founder are you? Honestly, I mean, that jives so much with everything that the founding fathers talked about. I mean, Jefferson could kind of run his mouth a little bit on some some of his ideas, things that some of the other founders

are probably a little more kind of say, okay, okay, Tommy, chill out there. But, you know, he did

“articulate the idea that the revolution should effectively be renewed every generation. That's what”

I mean, right, like the idea that, well, basically, the little blood's got to be spilled calm down,

Tom. I don't know if we need to go quite there. But the real sentiment, what I feel like TJ's getting at isn't that we necessarily have to spill blood. But perhaps that we should have our blood are skin in the game, right? And I think we do have to have our skin in the game. And I think we kind of all have skin in the game, but we're not realizing the benefits. We're just not. If we like think someone else is taking care of it, then we aren't being in it in the way that I think our OG founders want

it us to be. I feel like people want this perfect guarantee of a safety rail that government's going to work out and be okay without them being the safety rail. There has to be this recognition that we, the people, we are that safety rail. You just don't get government by the people, unless the people are doing it. Look, we do government at the end of the day, at least from the American framework, I'd say, in the pursuit of happiness. That's the point here is that we believe

that we have this unalienable, self-evident right to be able to pursue our own happiness, whatever that means for us as individuals. Greg, I have a question for you.

“Oh, let's go. When is the first time you remember reading the Constitution?”

Oh, my gosh. It was as a kid. So my mom flirted with home schooling often on. I was in public school from sixth grade on continuously, but my elementary school years were back and forth as she, well, as she went back and forth on this idea. And my mom was really good about about covering civics government. And I remember it was growing up in Southern California. We, yeah, I remember sitting in my room, reading the Constitution because mom said to do so.

I think that's really lucky. I think most of us can get to our 18th birthday be fully eligible to participate in the American experiment, but not really know the rule book at all,

to interact with new undergrads every year, because I know that no one likes playing a game,

they don't know the rules to whether it's like a game or a game or politics. And I'm like,

“guys, this game can't feel that good. If you haven't read the rules, you have to have that.”

If you want it to be something that you can have a better chance of winning. If you run with that analogy, even more, I mean, imagine you're on a baseball team, but for some reason, you've gotten the idea that you are such an unvalibable player that you're just going to go sit in the stands, and you don't know the rules. So not only is your team missing you on the field, and then you're not realizing the damage that that's doing, right? As an easy

pot fly is just gutting to the ground in the outfield, because you're not there to catch it. I'm not trying to make people feel guilty. Maybe a little guilty, not super guilty, the right guilty. And at the same time, you don't even know the rules to understand when a call is made. You might get the impression that the hump is being unfair. When in fact, there are three strikes, and you don't understand that. Or perhaps the hump is being unfair, and you don't know to call

out, right? It cuts both ways. I think this is sort of the point of shared governance,

“is that you have to have people who understand oversight and accountability. And if we all want to”

play like, oh, that's not for me to know, or, oh, I never learned that, then we're never going

to have something that feels accountable. We have to understand what it is that they can be held account for. And so that's one of the reasons I'm happy that you got to read the Constitution early on. I didn't do this. Tell the very end of high school. And I will say I probably didn't understand it until the very end of a PhD. And I still learn things. I read it once a year. I get to do it in class, and I learn things every time I do it. But I really think we sort of

under year our citizens to understand the world that they're stepping into because we don't have most of them read it. I feel the need right now to say, thank you, Mom. So let's, let's fix this a little bit. And again, I love your premise. The declaration author of one more analogy out there. We could think of this like a business. We live in an entrepreneurial society. And perhaps, you know, we're thinking about this as a company that's been established

250 years ago. But maybe it'd be better if we thought of every generation as having to be the new entrepreneur. Yeah, you've, you've got stake, you own shares in this company. Like any great enterprise of yesterday, it could easily become not so great tomorrow. Right? I think that's right. Shift under your feet. The economy shifts new inventions. You've got to adapt. Government also has to adapt. There might be these broad principles like separation of powers, checks and balances.

Sure, that's your, your, your basis. But we've got to be ready to adapt. That's why we need a living, you know, breathing Congress that can pass new laws. And I think if we're talking about this like a business, we're obviously the shareholders. And instead of like a set annual meeting, we actually get tons of annual meetings and tons of places for like customer feedback in the form of elections. And part of that isn't knowing, you know, like who am I electing? What are these positions?

When does it have to happen? Like you could not convince a business to listen to you if you didn't show up to the annual meeting. Same is true for government. If you don't agree to show up, if you don't agree to understand the rules, probably not going to listen to you. I'm a toll fanboy and

“nerd for representative government. Okay. That's what I think makes America so exciting today. You”

think about how much this nation has improved over our more than two centuries. It used to be a very limited number of people who could hold stock shall we say, right? You're typically a state right out the gate was saying that you had to be white, male, and a land owner. That is a very narrow little piece. But today, every American citizen of voting age 18 and older, right? As established in the cold open to this episode, 18 and older, yeah, they've they've got their share and they're

able to participate. Yeah, each successive generation, we do sort of expand the franchise a little bit further to a few more people so that we can have a more representative, more perfect union. Something else that I think about is, if America is this startup, we probably sort of failed the

first time we did it and that's okay. In the sense that we had 12 or 13 years were sort of like

under the articles of Confederation and then we learned and said, you know what, I think we can do better. And that's kind of how I think about government is yes, there's things that I like to complain about, but inheriting a government is not like inheriting something that you can just point out the flaws. It's something we're like, you have to see yourself as a part of it to be able to change it. And one of the reasons I think it's important to talk about the upsides or the positives is

I don't think I would motivate everyone else by being like, sorry, you guys are losers

and this system is rigged and it's always just gonna suck. Instead I'd say like, what can we do to make

“this better? And that's where I think as you a citizens, we have an ability to change our destiny.”

It's one of the most beautiful parts of being in a representative democracy in that each of us gets to have a say on how we go. An ability and even a duty, if I may. Absolutely. And it's something where, when people, someone asked me a question obviously, they said, Lindsey, do you think the founders would be proud of America today? And I was on a panel with other people. And the other people who answered it had a lot of negativity around like, you know,

there's partisan infighting and there's people who are not getting their needs met and there's problems internationally. And I totally took it a different way where I was like, I believe what America is today is beyond the wildest imaginings of what the OG founders would have thought we could have been. Because they're bringing together tiny little powers against the global hedge amon of the time. And now we are sort of not even sort of, we are the country that the most people want to come to.

If you look around, if you travel, you can find other places, but you can't find it upgrade. Can I just pause you for a second there? I mean, think about that for all that's going on. And I don't mean this in some sort of Pollyanna sort of way, right? Again, I'm not dismissing the things that people are worried about in this present moment. And yet, yet we still have people

longing to come to the United States. Absolutely. We always have. We probably always will.

One of the things that I think is really attractive about being here is this equality in inputs for voting. So we know that people have different levers of power to pull on based on wealth or connections or industry, but at the end of the day, everyone's vote counts as one. And so I think that's really attractive, especially if you come from a place where you're not permitted to contribute to who's going to be in your government or you're not permitted to say, I have a problem with this. Let's have

a referendum. It's awesome to be in a place that allows you to do those things. And Lindsay, I mean, this as like the ultimate pep talk right now for Americans, okay? But think about this, if for us today in this environment with the vote, so accessible as accessible as it is, right? Go ahead and know all of the limiting factors, but as accessible as it is, could you imagine being in this situation and going back in time? You know, you just talked about being on this

panel where the founders are, you know, you're answering hypothetically how the founders might look at today. Well, let's flip that around. If you were to go back and try and tell the founders

“about how hard and awful is and why you should just give up because, you know, you're not sure”

you're vote counts much. I just see them scratching their heads and saying, you know, we're fighting a war against one of the world's greatest superpowers. I like the idea that you get a choice at all. This is amazing. Or imagine, you know, going back to so many of the civil rights champions, Alice Paul, Frederick Douglass, you know, take your pick and saying, you know, yeah, it's just too hard from in my situation that our present is too hard. I just think that, you know, they would

they'd be a little stunned to say, you know, are you not aware of what our situation is and yet we fight without the vote. Absolutely. And I think it's something where if we think about the founders, I sometimes believe that we have this impression that they all got along in the first place and that's not really true at all. And so the idea that we have friction in the system or the idea that we see things differently or we fight about things or we want different ends,

“that's what it baked into the whole process of liberty. I mean, is that how you see it?”

100% look, I mean, I know you've heard me say this elsewhere, but when I read federalist 51 James Masson and he makes the comment that men are not angels. Look, this is the premise for government and what James Masson just said is people suck. That's it. They can, yes, they can't.

Not always. Well, you know, men are not angels, that's a pretty definitive statement. And what I see

is that they've built a structure on the premise that it needs to be able to endure people who suck. Yes, yes. And yes, they hoped for public virtue at the same time. So the hope is that the best of us will come to bear and the republic needs that desperately. It needs that. It can't endure if everyone to return to the many analogies we've made, right? People have to be rolling, people have to be playing, people have to be participating. That is crucial. And at the same time,

they tried to build a republic that could endure people being checked out, people being powerhungry,

as long as we have. And they saw it right out the gate themselves. You know, to get back to your

original point, I'm sorry. I kind of, I guess, tirated there a little bit on federalist 51, but oh my gosh, when I want to talk about ugly partisanship, I talk about the founders. And, you know, once King George was out of the picture, you know, it was really easy to agree on who the external enemy was, but now you've got a govern. You brought up my favorite president, which is James Madison, and one of the reasons I, oh, totally, absolutely. Sure, problematic figure in some ways, but

my favorite. No, no, no, dudes brilliant. You know, I cite him left right in center in in my book. But I don't just like him for who he is. I really like him for who he chose as a spouse and for

“who chose him back because I think when we tell this story of America, when we get wrapped up and”

like there were these white property owned and landed men who got to make the choices, there is so much that happened that dolly Madison, that all the other women in the houses of presidents changed. And when we think about that governing question that you just brought up at the early Republic, a lot of founders or a lot of early governors or a lot of people who are nominated to Congress and end up showing up, think that they can't hang out with each other because

it'll look like they're corroborating behind the scenes or they're trying to like figure things out in a way that's unbecoming of a Republican man who like has his own sort of ideas on things and the women look around and say like, well, these anti-social loaners are not going to do that well, if we can't sort of like grease the wheels. And so someone like dolly Madison and says, let's have some parties. Let's let these people know each other. Let's get together

outside of the halls of government. And that too is part of the founding story. It's not just we pass these laws and we made these decisions. It's all this sort of like, what does it mean to be in a Republic? And it's more of a family than it is someone who's just like, you're elected, you're in and everyone else is out. Absolutely. And look, with all my respect for James Madison, the dude married up and I don't just say that because he was five foot four. He was tiny. I know

“that might be also why I like him. That's probably also why I'm the coxon. I think because they're all”

really small. And I'm one inch taller than James was. Okay, you know a lot more about rowing than idea. Did you row? Is that a thing? No. No. It's more it's bigger in the east. I'm going to

lay it to that. Your east coast. I'm west. I mean, I'm of the heartland. I love the first two.

Yeah, the first 20 years of my life more. My goodness. Yeah, yep. The first 22 years are Michigan and Texas and Illinois and Kansas. Oh, okay. Yeah, coming up and down. I had another question for you because as I, you know, I'm like very happy to learn that you got to read the constitution in a doodleful home with a mother who cared about this. What do you think Americans misunderstand about the founding? Like, what is it that you think people believe is correct,

but actually probably isn't historically accurate? Can I tell you a personal story? Yeah.

“So a number of years ago, serving in a, in a, in a position in my hometown on the, the planning”

commission. We're having a meeting and those can get pretty heated planning commission is sometimes the, the warm up, if you will, for, for city council on. I'm on my local community board. Yeah, I know what these meetings feel like. Yeah, yes, yes, but for for listeners who who aren't familiar, right? Yeah, some of the most intense debates you get are in these sorts of meetings. And fair, I mean, these are the decisions that impact your life deeply in another episode. I'd love to talk

about why I'm such a huge fan of municipal government and why I might even go so far as to argue,

if you're going to be passionate about government, you are better to first let that passion come

out at home and forget Washington, D.C. even exists if, you know, if you're going to throw energy into this. You know, this is the government that impacts your life the most, even if we like to talk more about what happens in D.C. Anyhow, I digress. And in this meeting, a elected official of some sort, I will leave it at that level of vagueness, but an elected official got up and spoke about a zone change. So we're talking about, you know, what structures can be built in a certain

part of the city and there's a proposed zone change that had come before the planning commission and it was up to us, you know, to vote whether or not we were in favor against that. And this elected official, to be fair, recently elected, said that the Constitution has endured since the beginning and the Constitution doesn't change and there's no need to change the plan of the city.

going to have thoughts. And I'm told, like, I have a terrible poker face. I really do, we will never,

yeah, okay, well, great, that we can never play poker together. It'll be great. Yeah, I would never, I would never play the game because I just cannot hide what's going through my head. And I remember one of the other commissions, he said, oh, Greg, I could just see, like, the things that were, you know, brooding within you. And so of course, as we get to comment, you know, I explained, well, it has been changed. It's literally been changed 27 times,

specifically, not just in interpretation, but as in the words that are a part of the Constitution. One of those changes was literally to say we change our mind about one of the other changes.

It's a very change in 21. Yes, and furthermore, there is one article dedicated to nothing but

explaining this is how you change the document. And you know, why we have that is because the articles that can Federation were so hard to change that they were like, we got to figure out a way to do this that is workable because we originally said, like, you all have to agree. And any change has winners and losers. And so this is like, no, we'll just do super majority. Yeah. That night is just

“etched into my head. And I really don't mean that with this respect. I don't. But I think it's”

noteworthy to point out that we have good people. And I'm going to say that about, you know, the, about the individual speaking that that evening, good intending people who even run for office, who get elected by their fellow citizens. And that means they've, right, they've done right, according to our system. And yet, have not taken the time to understand the very constitution that they've been taken both to uphold. Now, I don't think that they ever did it intentionally,

but there's just a lot of assumption that we understand the rules of the game when we don't. Both by candidates. And we, the people are not holding them accountable. Clearly, there weren't questions in the, in the election process that drilled this, you know, newly elected official on constitutional principles enough to expose that and lead them not to necessarily even drop out, right, but just pause reflecting go holy crap. Maybe I should read this thing.

On and on there are about 2013. We're on the right side. The biggest advantage of Shopify for me is that we're for the underneath of the application, no technical need. We can all talk about the background and the front end. And so it was like in the mobile game, the online shop. If you're shopping, you're going to have a look at it, then you're going to have the platform, the own real Farad. You're just just a little bit of a big deal. Our whole business is going to be on Shopify. Now, there's a constant

losing test of Shopify.com. Well, we don't have that requirement, right? If you're in office, it's usually like, are you this old? Do you live in this place? Okay, you can go ahead and run it if you want. But, and you know what, Lindsay, I'm not even necessarily saying that there's got to be,

“because I, I think, and I'm not saying that you're suggesting that I think we'd get into a lot of”

trouble fast. If we were like, let this test, we know, think nasty things have been done with that, right? I'm not calling for a, a test per se to be given to potential candidates. But the test has to come from us. This gets back to what are we, the people, if we want government by the people, well, if we don't ensure that our candidates even understand the rules, how and earth do we expect, you know, that they're going to hold to them? So, I have two sorts of thoughts on this. One is the

constitution isn't that long. Like, if you were to print it out on eight and half by 11 page paper, it's like 17 pages, like 15, if you make it smaller font, 19, if you make it bigger, it's not that long. But the other thing is when you just said, like, bringing it back to we the people, I think that both the founders trusted we the people as in, we want to do this, but they also feared the people. And we sort of see both of these things. And it's not necessarily bad to have

both of those. It's like, yes, we trust if multiple people are thinking about it, we'll get to a better outcome. But we also should fear the people in that we are going to be held to account

“if we do something that the people don't like. And I think having both of those is important.”

It is. And look, we see that so many times. Ben Franklin, a pocket full tail. We always got it,

you know, I'm a historian. Let me put my little asterisk there. But allegedly asked after the convention, what have you, what have you rocked? What have you done in there? He says, a republic if you can keep it. Keep it. Yep. Yep. Yep. Yeah. And more than that, I found this so interesting to go back to our boy, little Jimmy James Madison, he says in the federalist

And he's explaining the check and balance between the two houses of Congress. So Congress,

“our legislature has two houses. And fair enough, people sometimes ask, well, why, why bother?”

And he's explaining that it's a check against corruption. And one of the ways to ensure that check really holds is to try and make these two bodies that are clearly, you know, two houses of one thing, nonetheless, as different as possible. So the house will elect Congress person every other year, right? And that's meant to intentionally make sure that representatives are dancing to this to whatever tune the people call. You want to hold on to your seat. You will do whatever is popular. Period.

But he says the exact opposite for the senators. And he even says that it is their duty to protect the people against their own delusions on occasion. Right? So here is a document. Here's a government, a government that's about government by the people. And yet here he's introducing even a check against the people on a short term basis. I'm sorry. I got excited and kept talking. You're nervous. No, there's no need to apologize. Something else that I like about. And I love

teaching about the distinction between the house and the Senate is they didn't just invent these. They looked to their closest historical relatives and said, hey, over in England, we've got a house of commons and a house of lords. We certainly don't want to have a house of lords, which is no family nobility. You get into it because of who you are, not because someone elected you. But we do want to have these sorts of polls, which is like that dance to the tune, turn over

every other year. You're a public servant through and through versus someone you can build up a little bit more institutional knowledge in a six year Senate term. And the idea that they're

staggering the Senate. So a third of the people are elected in every midterm election versus

the house where you could have the entire house flip over. There's sort of like lessons in history that the founders take and say, we're going to like change this. We're going to make it a little

“bit better and suit our needs. And I think that's sort of like the work of self governance is”

figuring out what you can learn from the past and say, how can I change this and make it suit my knees a little bit better. Lindsay, I feel the need to just know that there is an Alexander Hamilton jab to be made there if Thomas Jefferson and little Jimmy were here right? Well, you know, you say we don't want a house of lords, but I think I think Tommy be going Alex wants a house of lords. Yeah, maybe maybe, which is interesting given the like low-born status of his own background,

but the idea that he'd be an imperialist or a monarchist or a yeah, right? So James, I want to stick with the checks and balances thing, but I'm going to go ahead and make this a little segway, it's a little aside. Since, you know, we're talking about comparing partisanship then to today a little bit right, we've touched on that here and there. Let me just insert, I mean, Thomas Jefferson and James Madison called Alexander Hamilton a monocraft. That was

their blended slam of a monarchical aristocrat because they believed he wanted to into the American experiment and introduce if not a king in name at least in reality. That was that was their

“perception. I think that they were super wrong. Some to this day who go, oh, you know,”

Tommy little Jimmy, super nailed it. That was Alex. I think that is an insane position to hold, but they did and that was their partisan divide and you had those federalists and those Jefferson and Republicans each convinced that the other party wanted to destroy the country, which sounds a lot like how people talk about this today, where every election is the only one that matters. And the other side is going to like ruin the country or drive us into death or take what we want

and throw it all away. I, something, so I don't know if everyone knows this, but you do have a new book where you kind of go through a lot of times in which partisanship got to much more places than we are today. Do you feel okay talking about any of those parts in an example? Sure. Well, I'll tell you right now that example I just gave straight out of chapter one

where the very first two national newspapers established within the Washington administration.

So we can't even get through our first president without having a national media two papers each supporting the two instantly developed parties and just slamming each other and they're using pseudonyms, something we don't do in the press today, but I might say that's not all that different from, you know, get on social media and you're dealing with, say, bots or, you know, people who are putting ideas out there under fake names, not using real images, right?

So right out the gate, you've got disinformation, you've got bad assumptions about the opposite

I do think there's something about one of the reasons that it feels hard or uncomfortable to talk

“about politics is because of partisanship. And the way that I sort of like to think about things”

is think like a patriot, not like a partisan, being a citizen is different than being a partisan, but partisanship is a feature. It is a reality. It is not a mere bug. It is what's going to happen when you have any sort of government that's competing for control. And so something that I like about the way that you've written your book is saying partisanship has happened and it's been pretty bad in a bunch of different ways that many of us just don't know about. Stop, stop, stop.

It is like, we're not harming and feathering each other. We're not doing that. We're not dueling each other when we think that you've like a front-it-art sense of honor, partisanship has gotten really ugly in the past. And now we might like carry each other down on online forums, but it's usually not political violence. If I may Lindsay, and I'm going to pull the book from the shelf just to really drive home the point. And it's a real background that

that's always worth showing. The Federalist papers, right, you're your point about

a partisanship being a feature. So James Madison, Federalist number 10, he says that, and I quote, "Wait hold on, I think I'm going to follow along because I'll just go to my bookshelf." Let's do it. Do it. Here we go. I was like, "Sure, I got this up here, too." Okay, I love that none of this was scripted or planned, but that we both have the Federalist papers within Arms Reach. Oh, and I was on 51. That's where mine was open, too. Okay.

Oh, I love all 51. I mean, solid. Yeah, we'll go to 10. We'll basically, we're doing

“little Jimmy's greatest hits today. That's what's happening. I mean, he is the author of the”

Constitution. He's a father at the Constitution. It makes sense. It sure does. Which is where it's really fun to think of him and Alexander Hamilton. In 1793, getting into a print war, under pseudonyms in which they're yelling and screaming at each other over what the Constitution means. But of course, if anyone is also qualified to yell back at Little Jimmy, it's Alex who wrote 51 of these Federalist papers. But before I go into this Lindsey, can we just pause and point out

if the very two men that we might say, you know, I'm maybe, you could take some contest with Alex, perhaps, but follow me on this. If we look at them as authors of the Federal's papers, and of course, at the framework behind the Virginia Plan, James Madison, specifically, as like the two guys behind the Constitution, and they get into a full on screaming fest in the papers

over what the Constitution means, why are we surprised that we don't always agree on what the

Constitution means? Okay. Yeah. Yeah. I hear you and I also think it's something where like we wanted to be like, this is the black and white right answer wrong. And that's just not how it is, and you're going to show us how it's never been that way. Absolutely. Okay. So after after his super long opening paragraph that some teachers somewhere today would be like, you can't write and essay like that, James. We jumped down to two more. The paragraph that starts with it could

never be more true. You with me. Okay. It could never be more truly said that, you know what, actually, I'm going to back this up just one paragraph. He's going to make a point here about liberty and how you've got to embrace the fact that the partisanship exists if you're going to have liberty. All right. So he says, dang it. Now I feel the need to back up even more. I'm a white action. Yeah. Yeah, I'm a white action. So by a faction, I understand a number of citizens, whether

amounting to a majority or minority of the whole, who are united and actuated by some common impulse of passion or of interest, adverse to the rights of other citizens or to the permanent and aggregate interests of the community. There are two methods of curing the mischiefs of faction. The one by removing its causes, the other by controlling its effects. Okay. Easy enough so far. Right. This isn't super deep. We can all follow this. There are again two methods of removing

“the cause of faction. The one by destroying the liberty which is essential to its existence.”

The other by giving to every citizen the same opinions, the same passions and the same interests. Okay. So this should be super obvious to all of us, but going into this next paragraph. It's great. Thoughts are, in my opinion, a mark of greatness is that when you hear it, it feels obvious.

Right. So and that for me is what federal number 10 does on this point. It could never be

more truly said than of the first remedy that it was worse than the disease. Liberty is to faction what air is to fire. An element without which it instantly expires, but it could not be less

Then it would be to wish the annihilation of air which is essential to animal life because it

“imparts to fire as destructive agency. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Yes. Which is. Right. If we're going to have”

liberty, we're going to have differences of opinion. And if we want to keep liberty, we're going to have to have some way of figuring out how we navigate those differences of opinion instead of saying no liberty for anyone. Founding father might drop. Like that stuff Lindsey. I mean that is why 250 years later. Right. And again, Gemmy wrote it after 250. But embracing the semi-quincentennial that we are in. I have practiced that word by the way. I just want you to know that. That was

not the first time. I've been saying it for like a year. I'm with you. Yeah. Yeah. It needed it. But it's the brilliance of these ideas. It's not just some happy accident that the United States has endured that this republic has endured. And it's not because we're we're veering

“out of a de facto need to revere these dead white dudes. These ideas are brilliant.”

They have withstood the test of time. They have held against the the system of challenges that this nation has faced, even carrying us through the existential crisis, and bloody civil war that killed some upwards of 2% or so of the nation. These things have held and they're worth trusting today. And they were created in a time in which day-to-day life sucked a lot more. Like you couldn't drink the water. You had to have a lot of beer around or a

lot of ale's around. Life expectancy is something like 40 years old. So you have a 40-year runway to say like, what am I going to do? Kids are dying in their first year of life at rates.

We would never think about today. And so it's just everything was much harder. And yet,

we still got a pretty good thing out of it. Lindsay, I'm going to go ahead and assume that you you understand what I mean when I say you have died of dysentery. I played the organ trail. Absolutely, right? Yeah. Well, Lindsay, we've kind of been a little bit all over the map here,

“but I think perhaps a long and short. Some things that we've really hammered on as we've gone into”

unexpected weeds and come back out are that. What? One, we've got to participate. Two, we've got to know the rules of the game in order to participate. Three, this isn't the scariest time. Politics are simply scary. That's part of it. That's okay. I don't know. I might leave the list there, but what am I missing? What would you like to add in at least one more, which is we have to see ourselves as founders in this process.

We can't think that it's done. We can't think that we have nothing more to do, but if we're going to contribute to it, maybe it's better to recast ourselves as modern-day founders. Being co. Thank you. Yes, I felt the absence, and that was absolutely it, of course. So moving forward, I will do, as I do on history that doesn't suck, I'm going to tell stories, and you'll be by and large having some great interviews. I will, of course, come in and

disrupt those from time to time, and yeah, we look forward to telling you the story of government. Yeah, and figuring out when it does, and when it doesn't suck. So we'll see you every other Monday for a new episode of government that doesn't suck. Thanks for listening to this episode of government that doesn't suck, follow the show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or subscribe on YouTube for video episodes.

New episodes drop every other Monday. Tyler Reddick here from 2311 Racing and Bubble Walsh. You know what's the worst part of a race? Arrangely. Sitting around waiting for the track to drive is dope. But instead of waiting, we hang out with Chamba Casino. Social casino slots, bingo, solitaire, plenty of fun to keep us entertained. So why let Arrangely slow you down? Play now at ChambaCasino.com.

Let's Chamba! I'm Lindsay Kormack, host of government that doesn't suck with Greg Jackson from history that doesn't

suck. A narrative history podcast about the American institutions that you'll never look at the same way again.

Listen to on follow government that doesn't suck, available now wherever you get your podcasts.