008 Throwing and punching

and we're going to talk about throwing today, but obviously because throwing is a catchall that covers pretty much any kind of fast

“rotation of a body movement and we're also going to be talking about punching because that's Rob's kind of”

speciality when it comes to this kind of sort of activity. So quick introduction to throwing ground of course punching. Essentially throwing is one of those movements that depends quite heavily on the proximal to this sort of sequence, like vertical jumping, like sprinting and that kind of thing. And interestingly though, and kind of one differentiating fact that throwing has from other kind of movements is that it really has two proximal to this sort of sequences. We kind of have the initial sequence which starts at the

hip goes down into the ground and then you get a rebound effect that comes up through the up through the body and then you have that kind of torso rotation, and obviously of shoulder movement and then throwing action itself. So essentially we've got something that really divides itself relatively easily into two sections. We've got the section that involves that looks actually quite similar to a vertical jump or a single leg vertical jump and then the section that is much more familiar to us as

“a throwing action, which is the rotation of the torso and then the movement of the shoulder and”

the up. Now as a result, you can kind of sort of split training for throwing into those two kind of sections. You can think about it from a vertical jumping point of view or the lower body section, and you can think about it from the upper body point of view which is the rotation and the shoulder movement.

Now the set that's sort of the first section when we're thinking about the lower body, the vertical jump

analog. Essentially when we looked at vertical jumping last week we talked about how the starting biomechanical kind of determinant of vertical jump height was the impulse the vertical impulse relative to body weight. Essentially we're trying to create the biggest impulse to get us off the ground and we need to have a lighter body weight in order to maximize that jump height. Now the interesting thing about throwing and of course other similar movements like striking things and punching

is that you actually want to stay on the ground. You don't want that lower body movement to launch

“you into the air. You actually want to stay on the ground. And this is interesting. This is one of”

those areas that comes out a lot when you start looking at things like racket sports and golf golf especially because you're obviously not trying to move around the court. You're actually standing pretty still when you're taking your shots. And the interesting thing about that is that you tend to see that a baseball is another great example actually. But you tend to see that the heavier players, the heavier athletes, have this advantage when they're in those situations and it's because

they're able to stay on the ground more easily and produce higher forces because the you know obviously the body weight is sufficient to keep them on the ground for a higher impulse to their generate. So basically think of the first part of a throwing action very is very similar to that

of a vertical jump except with this critical difference is that you want to stay on the ground

you don't actually want to launch yourself into the air. And that's one of the reasons why heavier athletes are always going to have that advantage when it comes to throwing golf any kind of activity like a baseball punching those kinds of things. The second half the and okay so in terms of training for that we can obviously just kind of bring the information we talked about last time in terms of vertical jumping. We can really just bring pretty much all of that into the

throwing discussion except we're going to be training with a more force oriented kind of sort of perspective because we are trying to be slightly slower because we don't want to end up in the air and of course you know it isn't one of the it isn't quite as fast as it is would be as it would be for the vertical jumping situation. In terms of the upper body obviously we've got that rotation of the torso and then obviously we've got the shoulder and the arm movements.

And in terms of proximal to distal sequence we're going to be thinking to ourselves okay so hip and then so in terms of the upper body sequence we're going to have starting with the hip which is the connecting piece on the torso rotation so our strength work is going to be more around the hip and the rotation of the torso and then pretty much anything after that is largely going to be more kind of at the speed and the spectrum so this is kind of where we start to see why a lot of

strength training programs that are supposed to support throwing activities or punching activities aren't necessarily going to work as well as people think they are if they're based around things

like the bench press because ultimately those are going to be you know providing a lot of

strength development where we don't actually need it we want we need the strength development to the hip and the torso rotation not so much the shoulder and the arm and I've actually lost track of a number of times I've talked to coaches and and both sports and strength coaches are working in high level sports with people like baseball pitches and other athletes that are throwing

generating all of the kind of energy from the lower body and the torso rotation and what

“'s happening at the shoulder in the arm is is literally just kind of that kind of communication”

of that energy down the chain to the point where they're actually able to release the object that they're throwing. Really for me throwing is completely unlocked by the appreciation of the proximal to this or sequence everything else we kind of talked about last week when we talked about

vertical jumping because that's kind of the first half of the movement is just pretty much identical

obviously there's differences depending on the way in which the throw is performed and you might end up with either two legs or one leg on the ground it doesn't really matter point is it's going to pretty much follow the same kind of sort of rules as we described last time with the only difference being we actually want to stay on the ground and the upper body part is the interesting mixture of that torso rotation or we have the hip followed by the torso rotation and then followed by

the shoulder and the arm movement that we're very familiar with when we're looking at throw. So that's basically all we need to do to cover the kind of basics of throwing movement. So with

“that said Rob can you talk us through some throwing at well some strength training programs that”

you're using at the moment both for athletes that are needing to be able to throw and also athletes that are needing to be able to develop punching power. Yeah for sure Chris so I mean like Chris then we'll probably stick more to punching for this one because that's more my area of expertise bring some other guys on in the future to talk about throwing a bit more in depth. But yeah so one of the things I've found when a running program is for improving punching power

is a lot of guys are going to look at the program on paper and think especially for the lower body aspect that it's similar to maybe a bodybuilding program except the sets and reps might be a little different than they're used to and that's because like Chris was just saying for the hip you know similar to vertical jump work the hip work is going to be very heavy very strength focused so generally there you know depending on equipment focusing a lot on

you say at all the time the hip thrust is a great one very minimal muscle damage not really too fatiguing for low-up nice and heavy people don't have access to that or you know just for some reason can't do it I do like you know maybe a high handle drop or deadlift backsquads different ranges you know maybe four inch squat or maybe some kind of partial range box quads hold on that as well for the knee you know work around the knee a lot of times using things like

leg presses and other machines I think a lot of guys typically are surprised by that you know really like hacks quads really like leg presses pendulum those kinds of things if you guys have access they kind of look at those and think that it's you know again more like a bodybuilding thing but if you're looking at just needing to be very forced dominant with the lower body you know you can get that whether it's above all whether it's machine it doesn't have to look

quote unquote functional I think a lot of fighters especially try to look at things that kind of look like the action and obviously you know doesn't need to be that way at all and it probably shouldn't be that way so really like hacksquad and a leg press versus a backsquad you don't have to worry about the coordination demands of the squat someone skill level or anything like that you can just

“put them in a machine and load them up nice and heavy and train exactly the way you need to train”

without worrying about making them like a great squadter so really totally I mean that's such a such a great point I mean just this is emphasizing the the exact difference that we see between

the vertical jump and the throwing motion which is that we can think of that first half of the

movement as being more forced dominant and therefore unlike the vertical jump where you kind of thinking oh well you know I need to think more forced dominant to the hip and maybe the knee is more balanced between strength and speed actually for throwing you kind of thinking by actually the whole thing is pretty much forced dominant really very much so you can kind of lean more and obviously punching as well you can lean more into that sort of strength idea which is cool you know that you

got these kind of sort of more conventional you know sort of hip and knee balanced a strength really excises with trap by deadlifts and and the hat squats and that kind of thing and also I mean and then the second thing that I think was was pretty interesting about what you said there was just a choice of exercise selection because you know as you say from a bodybuilding or a strength point to view if if if we're not trying to get better at squatting then largely speaking hacks what

like press you know kind of trap by deadlift they're all kind of in that same zone real kind of doing the same kind of thing you know and you know especially when you got people who are using their shoulders a lot for throwing or punching I'm not sure back squat is necessary yeah you need that something I really need okay it's of course there's gonna be some people out there

who say oh no no never had any problems with with shoulders doing a very squat I'm like okay cool I

did yeah I was pretty pretty I was pretty miserable I was pretty miserable my shoulders and I was back squatting a lot you know and I think again it depends on the individual depends on their

fine I don't know I mean that's just not my area but I think it's a really important point that you

know it's like if you have those options available to which we do in the context of the model way describing why not make use of them and then you don't necessarily run into those problems

“with the people who experience those problems that's that's really cool I think that's just”

two things straight away that are jumping out to the programs that you're describing can you can you kind of give us just again and I ask you this all the time and you've answered the the same way every time but can you give us a little bit more around you know sets reps reps in reserve those kind of ideas just so that people know them who haven't maybe heard you say that before. Yeah for sure I'm going to come to stuff depending on the answers as such and if it's something

like a hip thrust you know a contracted position focus not very damaging stuff with that I

may program those for a few sets you know two to three usually two to three honestly because you

you're not going to get too fatigued from those not going to create a lot of postwork out fatigue and then you use lower reps with it you know anyway from like three to maybe six because I'm generally going for a really high output on those really not creating a ton of muscle damage or anything like that so I like to program those for a few sets other things you know depending on if I'm using like a hacksquad or maybe a like present as a little less wrong some of

that generally you know one to two sets especially in the ending a bit more like peak tension and kind of a stretch position with a hacksquad or something like that same thing you know lower reps low to moderate on those generally so four to eight is usually a good range both both of those whether it's the hip stuff or the knee stuff a few reps in reserve we talked on the other podcast about mitigating the effects of pivot type shifting and all these things so I'm not

“like taking guys to failure and I think a lot of guys and fighters who are trying to maybe”

not to out of weight class or move up a weight class and to help their punching power things like that or just you know because they're not appropriately sized they think they need to do this type perturbary work to failure you know even sometimes past failures stuff like that and it's just not necessary you know you leave a few reps in reserve still get a few gets stimulating reps per set and you're going to grow or you know at the very least probably maintain all your

muscle size in these kinds of programs so yeah just few sets a little bit more with the contract of position focused stuff and then leave a couple reps in the tank all the time like you don't you don't need to be pushing yourself to in past failure because then your sessions for the sport you know through the week we're going to be bad if you're doing multiple strength sessions they're not going to be as good in professional v's good so really just being being careful

of that sure and again just just picking up on what you said there in terms of number of sessions per week and being aware of the sports training sessions as well I'm guessing you're probably kind of in the same zone as we've talked about before you're programming two sessions a week most of the time yeah if people have capacity and they really need the extra strength where you can push it to three but generally speaking that's kind of the ballpark I'm guessing

yeah and I mean especially fight training is is super super demanding I mean it's been a long time since I had any of my amateur more tough fights but you know still coaching a lot my brother was you know fighting pro for a very very long time of the highest level and those training

sessions are just you know they're growing did you really have to be in just incredible shape

cardio wise and just kind of you know mental toughness some of that as well so if you do any sessions they're usually pretty long there's a lot of stuff you gotta do in them you just don't have the time and the recovery capacity for more than a couple or maybe three good strength sessions a week you're just going to be tight sure now that makes total sense so that was basically the kind of the if we divide throwing into these two separate halves that was the lower body kind of

half now obviously the hips connect into the upper body so we're kind of starting our torso movement with what's happening at the hip but moving into that what are you programming at the moment well let me back up briefly because and let me just intro this before we start talking

“about this what I want to say what we both want to say actually I think we've had discussions about”

this what we both want to say is want to thank people who have been sending us videos or there right yeah this has been fantastic we're really happy about this please continue to do this sending us videos of that kind of invented exercises all the exercises that they're developed in a variations of exercises for torso rotation and when we say that we're describing the fact that we want a forced dominant torso rotation exercise most of the traditional way or the traditional

way in which the torso has been trained in SNC is is kind of power based it's kind of you know medicine ball slams it's rotational stuff you get a little bit of cable work occasionally but most of it is incredibly unstable so you know we want to thank people who have been sending us their suggestions for how we could train you know torso in a more sort of forced dominant way but

training stuff would look like you know just the strength training side of things not the kind of the speed and the space but just strength training so for that kind of torso rotation and if you're doing anything for the shoulder what you doing there as well yeah for sure for the trunk rotation stuff like we said a lot of people have sent a lot of gets set up one of the ones that I really like that I started using I'd seen from a guy not too long ago and it was

basically if you're doing a cable trunk rotation imagine instead of standing up straight you just

bend over so you're roughly a parallel to the four cables out at the side of you already then you're going to get a good amount more stability you'll notice the load that you can use in the rotation is quite a bit larger and then from there you can add at least if you have one like a dip forward so I try to wait on there to keep you more stable down to the ground and then you'll notice you can use a ton of weight with the cable rotation I won't tell you really nice so just just to

have asking for clarification on those so that people can visualize it obviously when we're normally doing a rotation exercise the cable machine might be off to one side of us and we're kind of twisting our torso you know in that in that kind of transverse plane rotating to to move the and obviously the cable is coming from from that side of us if we're now kind of sort of

facing the ground because we're bending forwards at the waist then obviously now the rotation

obviously from our torso perspective is exactly the same but you know from the perspective of what the cable is doing that's slightly different does that change how you're setting the cable station up yeah I mean usually I'll change the height of the cable to match so it's just more in one hand with the ground so it's all all you're doing is just moving the cable down so instead of being like kind of shoulder height now you're obviously because you're bending it the waist is more

like approximately waist height or is it lower than that yeah usually usually around waist height

“okay cool now that's how I think it's for for people to be able to visualize because we haven't”

got the you know that yeah I can't see it but yeah it's honestly it's a good easy setup and even without that the added stability from the belt compared to just the standing rotation you know worlds better the standing rotation you see all the time standing and even sitting I'm seeing and really no matter what you do there you can stagger your stance you can bend your knees you can sink in a little bit it's just very very unstable and you don't want to be using

much weight at all so then the bend right quite very quite like variation that we got sent where there was a guy who was in a split kneeling stamp yeah what he got we got he got he got a yeah he got a I think it was a jump block next to him and he was using that to create a lot of stability you could see that as he was moving he was pushing into the block to keep himself in that that stable stay and I think that that kind of thing is really inventive so that's

really cool when we see those things because it's starting to get to because obviously you could argue that's like oh what we need is a machine that will do all these things yeah fantastic maybe in three years time maybe a few years time someone will build something like that based on listening to these podcasts if I rant about it enough maybe someone I eventually build it but in the mean time

“somebody's got a kind of have you know a way of making this happen and I think you know your”

your kind of variation you described there the kneeling variation that we've I just mentioned there's a really cool because they're giving people actionable ways they can literally right now get a cable stack get a set up and actually start to play around with this stuff and I think you know

ultimately throwing is just another proximal to this of sequence movement and as a result we need

that force much more proximally training force production more distantly like people have been thinking about it from you know you know historically just doesn't make any sense anyway so you know kind of carry on sorry I interrupt you it talk about you know how your programming needs these rotational exercises you know keep being a dead horse here but again same thing kind of sets and reps wise it's usually two to three sets or only too many more low to moderate reps I'm

generally young you know more moderate I hadn't played around with like three dribbles and things like that I might be quite difficult just at the moment until we can get until we can get a really stable set up you know but just me really five day range is usually I find pretty good with those okay awesome yeah so again you know don't gotta go to failure or anything nothing like that and I don't I don't know if I'd suggest taking a trunk rotation quite to failure anyway it's

fine I'm gonna be the most comfortable thing yeah a couple of reps and reserve moderate reps but I've gotten quite like there has been programming those with one of my uh one of my boxing guys and then my brother and I'll be adding quite a bit of those into some of the group training programs we run so that would be really good working on some cool stuff for this

“upcoming year for the guys and yeah I know you mentioned it but I think people really do”

have the idea that especially for punching power the speed is so important when when you look at that force that aspect you know you compare it to like golf and tennis in that the trunk

much higher level of force even then golf and tennis in that and you know it's just below things like kayaking and rowing where there's a lot of resistance so they do they do produce a ton of force yeah they move fast so the gradient of the profiles maybe a little more shallow but the overall force is super high so you really just gotta focus on that instead of just kind of hunting literally hunting things at a wall oh yeah we got to create that kinetic energy somewhere

“and I think you know basically what we're trying to describe here is that throwing and punching”

is about creating kinetic energy with the lower body I mean obviously transmitting that through the hips into the torso adding more kinetic energy with the hips and the torso ticks and we can and then obviously the rest of the body is kind of moving more into that velocity into this boat so um so that's kind of the the strength of the lower body strength for the upper body obviously you know because of your expertise in punching you have also not only got the

S&C side of this but you're also aware of how that kind of bridges into you know kind of the the sports specific more sports specific velocity type training you talk as a little bit about that yes so the stuff you can do kind of like in the weight room is really I mean I keep it super super simple it's more you know just like your standard kind of med ball throws I do like you know kind of skipping into throws of undoing throws of the wall stuff like that

just to get more velocity you know you take a longer strad take a skip and do it you get a lot

more speed out of that I always don't be able to be careful of the weight that they're using

if they're doing like you know lying med ball throwing stuff like that because you'll notice really really fast if you go from like 5% of your bench weight up to even you know 10% or so the slowdown is absolutely massive so just this is a very heavy weight absolutely this is one of

“those things that really really grinds my gears because it's like I think strength coaches are”

almost programmed just trying to add a load to anything that moves just like just just like understand that we're dealing with opposite ends of the spectrum on the force velocity profile here and that kind of adding load is just taking you away from the if if anything it's like if anything we want to actually do the opposite you know like we were talking about last week yeah it's a system you know or like in terms of you know when when people are trying to throw

implements or that you know it's like can you find a way to make it lighter than the thing that you would normally you know so can you throw tennis ball instead of a you know baseball or something like that is like I'm not the person I'm not the right person to come up with this is why you know I'm not the guy who's inventing new exercises for people to do I'm just trying to explain how the physiology and bio mechanics works and there'll be some kind of person with a more engineering

type of mindset who will come up with some really cool solutions it's like great fantastic and will help you know popularize those if we can but yeah it's just like in terms of thinking about that force velocity spectrum can we make it easier rather than harder to try and move faster

“at that end of the spectrum so yeah I mean like I think there's definitely a role from medicine”

balls but ultimately I think we've just got to be aware that oh we're trying to push the velocity

of the movement rather than the force production and this is horrible temptation in everything that we do is like can we add load and it's like that's not point you don't need to prove you found that it's not but in terms of the more spores because I think so you talk me through before we jump to the podcast today you were talking about a few kind of drills that the guys are doing with with the heavy bag yeah I mean so a lot of people and you see this ever and ever they

want to improve their punching power and they want to do really really do feel like sports specific drills they know they're punching with weights they're you know maybe punching with weights sometimes releasing it which is almost slightly less terrible and really if you look it away the way that a lot of the best punchers train um getkers tougher that they're in the gym practicing the padwork per bagwork it would just like single hard shots or maybe a really crisp

combination where it's two punches you know maybe three always practicing as hard as they can

as fast as they can and taking like you know a good bit between the reset they're not kind of throwing and when shots packed back it turns the combinations all on a row if the goal was training to hit hard you know sometimes they'll be doing it for cardio you know that's fun if it's at the end of a session but if you're actually training it like early in a workout to try to improve your speed and that with your punching and try to hit harder just keep everything literally as hard as possible

every single shot you know you're just trying to like crush the pads crush the bag you want if someone's holding pads or mitts for you you just want to hit that as hard as you can and make sure that they're feeling it through the mid um you don't want to be doing just kind of throwing

be very careful with that don't follow the trap of thinking like you're going to get better punching by improving how tired you do or don't get while you're punching you can you can do that with other things that's not going to help your punching power speed at all so again less

is more and the execution is is critical and as you're saying we're putting it actually at the

“beginning of a workout rather than later on and that's a really interesting point I think because”

often when you kind of looking at the way people are structuring strengthening programs especially in this kind of context they might be like oh I've got to get all of my strength training stuff in and then I'll throw some punches on at the end like no no no no if you're purpose was to actually create a speed stimulus you know you actually want it the beginning because everything else is just going to kind of obliterate the ability to kind of create those

adaptions that are going to help you you know produce improvements in speed relate to the adaptions you know pretty much all of what we're saying here is directly applicable to you know kind of a lot of the sort of racket based activities or you know baseball hitting golf striking whatever it might be throwing pitching anything like that all of those activities are fundamentally going to work and exactly the same template just going to have slight differences in terms of the

specific speed movement perhaps but large is speaking the lower body strength training

“the torso rotation the hip work absolutely identical in all of those situations I think”

like you were saying at the beginning you know people like to really analyze the biomechanics of the movement they're really interested in and they're like you know how can I create a movement that replicate that yes do the movement I mean you know you're already doing the movement in your sport so it's going to give you kind of most of that already you know what we're adding really is the ability of the core of the body perhaps torso rotation and in the case of throwing obviously

up the knee as well because we're more forced on it and low body to add that kinetic energy then allows you to express the really high velocities at the shoulder to create other throwing all the striking or you know the punching whatever activity is the we're generating so I think that's that's hopefully been a really useful introduction to this this kind of throwing upper body rotational movement I don't think we talked about this before we jump to the podcast

but have you seen anything really silly that people are doing at the moment that you know we can we can kind of describe to people in the audience when it comes to combat what's I have an infinite life absolutely and a good buddy of mine apple that I we have been back and forth on these things all week actually so a good shout out to Adam do the who is an awesome coach you guys should also check out on Instagram but anyway we're we'll get it things the other

day and one of the ones we saw was end range isometrics for improving punching power so

if anyone's seen this definitely don't do it I will describe it here in a second so basically you

stand in the position that the end of the punch would be so if you know you throw it a straight around hand your arm is extended you turn into it whatever and then from there I think I had his athletes just pushing into a pad with that right hand as hard as they could same thing without with the left arm yet someone mimicking throwing like a left hook and driving their left hand into the pad as hard as they could and just a long isometric

I don't know why anyone would ever think that that was going to increase your force production in a punch and especially you know make you faster and then like that and he had a bunch of gabby go crazy for why it would work but it's definitely not going to work you don't need to

“be doing some kind of ISO at the end range of a punch because you need to be working out producing”

force earlier in the next one. The poor opposite end yeah it's so silly that was not murdered in the most egregious one I had seen this week I guess quite a few others actually I had seen people talking about core training for combat sports for punching in that and they mentioned actually that's a really good point if we could do one thing with this podcast series that we do if we could do one thing if we could convert people to thinking instead of thinking about core

to thinking about torso rotation I think that would be an amazing contribution to the

S&C community if you could like yeah get people to think about you're not thinking about this this kind of costability or indentation you know anti-rotation it's like actually about how do I produce force to create a rotational movement because actually there's you know kind of a rotational component in many many activities that we do so you know and the proximal disaster sequence is the

that goes down to you so I just think as you were describing that I was thinking if we could literally

“just get people to think about you know using torso as a rotational kind of action rather than just”

as a weird kind of this magical kind of costability anti-rotation nonsense people like to talk about. The core does a lot of things that doesn't just you know stand there rigid and especially an athletic movement so yeah another one I've seen in terms of core training a couple of things all from the same guy who of course we don't name names the idea that for some reason farmers carries were an incredibly effective course as has for fighters and the reasoning was just that

they work the whole body you know not really very good reasoning and obviously you're trying to improve punching power punching speed things like that that's not going to do anything for you and that was the context that was mentioned you know if you're doing it farmers carry I don't know I can't have a thing against farmers carries for the most part because they're and exercise that is doing

a million things at once and they're more real tough. Nothing very well yes. Yeah you just train

a billion muscles none of them really get any high levels of recruitment or growth or you know the adaptations that are going to even strengthen that so you just kind of walk around with heavy weights to get tired. So if you're if you're training for combat sports in that I probably would suggest other things another one on the same lines was it wasn't because it works the whole body but it was training your core to again you just imagine resist rotation people hadn't you know

guys doing photos doing pull off presses half kneeling so not even with the knee on the ground and really if you're doing like videos that familiar with pull off press you have a cable that's lined up at the side of you you press the cable out and you just hold it there so you resist the rotation back in towards the cable stack again just like we mentioned with the standing cable rotations we were actually rotating to exercise where you can't use very much load at all

if you do half kneeling where for some reason kneeling down but the back knee is not even on the ground it's just inherently even less stable so people for some reason have gotten the idea that like

“with these incredibly unstable movements that you have to resist that rotation it's going to”

really effectively train your core it's just a very light load in movement that's not doing very much at all exactly exactly I'm I'm a big critic of that exercise I really don't like it at all I think if we could just get rid of that and do proper torso rotations when it's time to

be a million tons but I really really really effective I will not use that I mean I haven't

programmed one and probably eight ten years and I would not try to thank some others because there was there was a few I sent you there was quite another one so I had a someone mentioning for and I think we mentioned this in the centric podcast actually but I'm mentioning that for fighters to improve platos and strength and hypertrophy and improve their power and all these things they should use e-center training and the idea was that it would give you increases in recruitment I mean

which it does if it's super maximum but you can get that plenty of other ways and arts of fatigue and it would give you more muscle size than regular training would which is not the case for sure and it's also going to leave you incredibly fatigued four-year sports training it was really yet I'm a very specific reason to use e-center trips for combat sports for punching power things like that I don't want to just hand it give reason if you're worried about increasing murder

you're a crewman stuff like that to give you access to faster muscle fibers those kinds of things way better off using just heavy strength training muscles that it's relevant and then you know really fast movement training or some of those you know whatever it may be stuff that's not going to leave you just crushed for the sessions you did you know for some reasons from kind of e-center training for the lower body you know you're just going to be tanked for a whole week

if it's super heavy and you do too much of it so I don't really see any reason for that for punctual

“power at all I think yeah I think e-center training would be pretty low on my list of things to”

consider for either vertical jumping or throwing I think in certain situations if you have a particular throwing motion that has a really kind of pronounced wind up you can kind of start to maybe play around with it a little bit for some of your kind of more interesting cases but I wouldn't be starting there it wouldn't be like I wouldn't be building my program around I think or you described today with a kind of lower body sort of classic heavy strength training you know

some torso rotation stuff I think that is going to be 90% of what actually helps any of these movements I think as I say there might be some specific situations where a little bit of target to decent training could be interesting but it's absolutely not going to be where I start

there's something that's where you've always viewed wind up being in a situation but you know for

“puncture you don't have that you know you'll be telegraphing kind of so horrendously that people”

would just be able to walk out of the way you know and I've seen I've seen these centre training for the upper body as well in that case I mean you're just making things slow slow slow slow slow Yeah, I mean, again, people think gets, they buy into a couple of the mine, a physiological aspect of eccentric training where they think that adding soccer mode and series is going to make them kind of have a higher muscle fire shortening velocity and that's really debatable actually.

And we can talk about that another time and we get to realistically when you're adding soccer resin series and you're also adding costumers, which is what eccentric training does, you're not really getting the benefits that you think you're getting from adding from a fiber velocity shortening point of view, you're not really getting those benefits as effectively as you think they are. And also, you're obviously tending to get fiber type shift. Yeah, but you think

because a lot of calcium in my accumulation and so ultimately it just doesn't really work the way

people think it works and that even the motif of cumin sort of things is kind of limited theory centric contractions, because of very poor nations, so it's not doing what people think

“it's doing. They get kind of, I think, seduced by some of the mine and little physiology bits and pieces”

that aren't actually working quite the way they think they're working when you look at everything

in context. So definitely, we'd always look at things from heavy strength training and high

velocity training point of view in both vertical jumping and in theory and of course as a result in things like punching as well. But as you said, as we've just been hinting there, we have got a whole bunch of colleagues and friends that we would kind of love to bring on this podcast and get their views on specific things like baseball pitching, golf, especially with taught bar, that would be great to have a guest on. If you know anyone who's into like

shop on, discounted anything like that, I know I've had a couple of messages about people interested and, you know, people that specialize in that, that would be, again, all one. That would be fantastic too to get some guest on in the future and just kind of thrashes out with them. So but just in

“terms of the real fundamentals of this, we've covered that today. I think we've hopefully provided”

enough information to be able to get going if they're interested in incorporating some of these ideas into their training programs, whether it's for basic terrain, whether it's for punching, whether it's for anything else, whether any kind of rotational upper body activity. So let's call it a day there. That's been a fantastic episode. Thank you so much for that, Rob. Yeah. Well, and we will be back next week with sprinting. So that will be fun because that really does change the game a little bit.

So hopefully you guys will join us next time.