The #1 Dating Rule That Will Change Your Life (and save months of heartbreak with Sabrina Zohar)

Yeah, it wasn't my best moment. I had to learn that space is not bad. But also, if I'm going to be too much, then then go find less. That's fine. Sabrina Zahar, you are an expert in dating and relationships. I loved when neuroscience psychology and just personal experience. For me, I was hyper independent in my career, but then I would be in romantic settings and I would completely crumble. I got my heart ripped out and stepped on as like there's got to be more to this and I just kept investing in myself.

My biggest fear in life was building an empire and waking up at 50 and not being able to celebrate that with people. But I did not know how to date. How does someone learn that? Let's back it up. With highly ambitious women to your point, avoidance is a lot more prevalent when we're starting a business. If I work really hard, I make money. It's very black and white. We're taught process equals outcome and been dating. There is no outcome with the right process.

What would you say to the highly ambitious women? The first thing I would say is when we look at the neuroscience of dating, triggers are a good thing. Okay, can you explain that a little bit more?

Absolutely, but the biggest thing. I always ask on a first date.

What do you think are the three most common things that women need to learn before they are ready to fall in love with their husband? In case you missed it, you're allowed to be hot, smart, and rich. So let's get into it. So Vrana Zahar, are you ready to get hot? I'm so excited. You are one of the most popular dating coaches on social media. What is one word that you would use to describe dating right now?

Can I give you two? Yeah, hot mess. There's like a two fold, right? There's this immediacy of this Amazon prime way of doing things.

“I need to know before I go out with you. If you want to be my partner, do you want to get married? Do you want to have kids with me?”

Are you going to choose me? Are you going to break my heart? We need that certainty? And then with that immediacy and the certainty, what I also start to see is people don't really trust themselves. And so that's kind of why describe it as a hot mess because I'm seeing people all over the spectrum.

Some that are more intentional. Some that have never understood what trauma is or understanding why they do things.

And so I think it's quite a spectrum right now. And I'm curious to see what's going to happen with the next generation. How conscious do you think people are when they are dating multiple people versus one person? For me, I'm a fan of dating multiple people at one time for this simple reason that you don't hyper fixate on one person, right? And so if we're talking neuroscience, like my stuff, I love to blend neuroscience psychology and just personal experience. When we look at the neuroscience of dating, when you're dating somebody, oxytocin and dopamine are released in big batches.

And so when we have just one person, what happens is your nervous system is saying, I'm only safe with them. When you have multiple people, what you're telling a nervous system is look their options. It's not the only person and that there's going to be potentially someone else if this doesn't work out.

“And so to me, I love that now. I also want to be cognizant that if people don't feel like they could do that, like would you date multiple people?”

It was not something I was comfortable with, but I actually felt like it was really helpful for the exact reason that you're talking about. I felt like I would fall in love with the fantasy of someone. And when you are dating multiple people and you think that there's multiple options, you fall less in love with the idea of someone and you're able to fall in love with that person. But that took me a really long time to learn. Life story, right? And that's the thing is because if you're not going to learn from the past experiences, start to implement the material that we're learning.

We're just going to keep repeating the same thing, right? There's the saying, the definition of insanity is doing the same thing, expecting a different result. It's like that's also trauma. And so for me, right, I had big tea trauma growing up. I had the chaotic household. I had the father that was inconsistent. I had a lot of the turmoil.

Somebody else might have had two parents that are absolutely amazing, but maybe one of them just worked full time.

“And so we're not ever trying to compare trauma, but what we are trying to understand while we're dating is like, what's coming up from you and what's triggering me?”

And I think for a lot of people dating multiple people can feel, oh, I'm not giving anybody my time. But I like to look at it kind of how you were saying of, I think it challenges us to be able to say, just because this doesn't work out. It doesn't mean that there's not seven other amazing people versus I hear this all time and I'm curious if you hear it from your girlfriends. I haven't met anybody like this. It's been so long since I felt this and that just tricks your system into thinking that they have to have that person when it could just be a feeling.

So you said that you grew up in kind of like a capital tea trauma household. What did you actually have to unlearn about the behaviors that you saw to successfully end up in a strong healthy relationship today? I had to learn a lot of things. I had to learn that space is not that that you're going to be okay if somebody doesn't call you. It's okay if somebody doesn't text you. I was that classic anxious girl where if somebody didn't text me for 20 minutes, I was losing my marbles. I sent 173 text messages to a guy because he tried to end it with me after a month.

And I think what I learned in childhood was that love is very conditional, right? So we had a lot of turmoil and my dad would just leave. And so I saw I'm too much. There's something wrong with me if my own father won't stick around what makes me think anybody else will. And what I had to learn was I'm not too much. Somebody just taught me that my behavior was too much for them because they didn't know how to handle it. And so I had to really deprogram if you will that there's anything wrong with me fundamentally when really just I was just asking the wrong people.

That's the word anxious and it's so interesting Sabrina because I would say in every other relationship I was extremely avoidant, which I actually think a lot of highly ambitious women are because they can create control and safety out of their life with their job with the friends that they choose with relationships. I think I was avoiding because I was picking the wrong person that like truly wasn't good enough for me. And then when I did find the right person, I would say my attachment style work towards being definitely more secure because I put in the work.

But then did lean and does lean a little bit more anxious. What can you say in terms of attachment styles and what you see specifically with ambitious women? So I think attachment styles, there's a spectrum right and I think what we really have to look at is what's being triggered. And so with highly ambitious women to your point avoidance is a lot more prevalent why because when it comes to ambition and career, if I work really hard, there's an outcome. If I do this, I get a reward. If I work really hard, I make money, my company successful, it's X, Y and Z, it's very black and white. We're not triggered in the same ways romantic relationships are the quickest trigger to your parents.

So you might think you're amazing and you're good, but that also could be coping mechanisms, right? Like for me, I was hyper independent in my career and I was the baddie and I was going out there.

But then I would be in romantic settings and I would completely crumble. And so I think one, it's a means of control. We can control the outcome depending on how ambitious we are. I don't want anything to take away from this because oftentimes we're scared that if we open up, if we become vulnerable, if we let somebody in, what's that going to do to us?

“How's that going to impact my career? Am I going to lose myself? And I think for the highly ambitious women leaning more towards the avoidant? Here's the thing.”

People are still having anxiety, right? Like you can understand when I mean by that, it just manifests differently and I think when we compartmentalize, especially in our career. It's a form of control and it's a guarantee of something at the end of it unlike relationships. So interesting. I want you to look at this thing. So I just tweeted this or put her on threads this morning. And I said FYI, it's really lonely at the top and PS, it's really lonely building it. Look at the response from someone. Can you read the answer aloud? Yes. So one was loneliness must be an epidemic.

And the second is this and also very challenging for a single girl who's trying to build a company and find love simultaneously.

But I know it's doable and my time is coming. It's been beautiful watching you do it. Can you talk a little bit about this woman who is like dating is so hard? I'm building a company. What would you say to that version of yourself? I was her about five years ago. I was building software, my clothing company, you know, when we're dating and we're starting a business. We have to look at priorities. I was focused on a software. I'll give you a story.

“I'll never forget. I met this guy on like a dating app or something. We went on a one day. We went for a walk.”

Very inconspicuous. I just wanted to see if I liked him had a feeling a wouldn't. And that night I had a call with my manufacturing. Now I lived in New York at the time. Manufacturing was here three hours. It was a nine o'clock at night and I just told him I said, hey, I'm going to be off my phone. I have to have a call. I will talk to you tomorrow. I had 47 text messages from him on a 30 minute call accusing me of cheating. Accusing me of being out with somebody else didn't believe that I was doing this.

And for me, I saw that as a threat to my safety because my career was my priority. And so now you're, I hate to say, but you're fucking with my priority. And you're coming into something that makes me no longer feel safe because that's where I'm putting my energy. And now you're accusing me of something. And so I think when you're building a company, you do have to make sacrifices. All right, I met my partner when I was building all of this. And with that came a lot of time saying, hey, I'm so sorry. I can't make it.

Hey, I have to go out and record some things. Hey, we have to turn our house into a studio. Hope you're okay with that. I've had mentally I'm intimidating. And say, wow, it freaks me out how much of a badass you are in this business. Do I fit into your life? And so I think that's the balance of when you're really trying to build an empire.

“You have to be one with somebody. We're going to tow gender norms. You have to be with a man or they that is really confident in themselves, right?”

Like, you know that your husband is really confident who he is to have you be building this beautiful empire that you're building. Otherwise, that would be a threat to his masculinity and personality.

Same with my partner. He, we always say I'm the picture he's the frame, right? He puts me on the pedestal. He doesn't try to knock me off.

And so I think for a lot of people, especially when you meet a woman, a lot of men look at that and say, "But how am I going to fit in if this is you building a business is really difficult? It doesn't mean you can't. It just means that you're not dating the right people." It's also so interesting because when I was single and I was starting this business and it was so much effort. And I think one of the questions that I've always wondered is, how much effort should dating really feel like when you are already exhausted as a woman from doing it all?

And I think dating, listen, no matter what dating relationships you're married, it's exhausting. It's exhausting because it is work. The same with running a business. It's not a bad exhaustion, but I'd be lying if I said I wasn't tired all the time. The reason that dating feels a lot harder is because one, we don't trust ourselves. And so we're over complicating and we're reading into things and oh, he said this and we're sending it to the group chat and we're assembling all the team. Instead of just trusting our gut and saying, "I didn't love the way that person said it and I'll handle it."

And I think a lot of the times we try to make it something that it's not, I will say, a relationship isn't easy, but it should flow. And if you're not having a flow, then that's where we're starting because you can't change other people. And so the more we try to get people to become what it is that we want, the more exhausted we're going to become because we're already trying to go against the grains of getting a business out there. Now, do you want to have to deal with a partner? Do you want to be their parent? Do you want to be their partner?

“Well, that's what I see so much with my friends that are these incredibly successful women that are running these multi-million dollar businesses, and they are just exhausted from running their business.”

Being a good friend, doing their laundry, working out, getting all of the things that go into building their personal brand and their life. And so often I think that they get into the mindset where there is like, there are no good men left. I haven't met someone that's on my level and they're just tapping out of that dating conversation. What would you say to that woman, founder, highly ambitious, successful, driven woman to get them back in the mindset where they don't think that the outcome is there's no good men left. I'm too tired.

That's a cognitive bias and I totally understand that because I will say this, you'll see it when you believe it. And so I'm a big fan of that. I have a sign above my door and says that because if I don't actually believe that there's something out there for me, then how am I ever going to see it? Because I could have the queen of sheep or the king of sheep in front of you and you'll tell me there's a problem with it. And so I think what I would say is we can reframe. They're in addition to your life, not instead of.

And so if we know that somebody's in addition to your life, then that means that they need to be additive. I think of it like a bank account or you in the green, right, if that were benefiting, I'm growing from this. I feel fulfilled. I feel like it's an outlet. I can have fun, not just sexually, but intellectually and with that connection.

Or do I feel exhausted? Or might need to not being met, right? And I always kind of, we got our girls that are business owners.

You're going to appreciate this kind of example. If you were going out there and we'll use just an even number.

“Let's say you said I need a salary for $100,000.”

That's it. I cannot live any lower. I won't be able to pay rent. I can't pay my utilities. Then you're dating these people. They're offering you $10,000. Very limited, not offering what it is that you need. And instead of saying no thank you, I will wait for what's deserving of me. We say okay fine. And then we get resentful and our needs aren't met.

And we take something that is below us and what we deserve because we think there's nothing else. But you don't know what's coming. And that's the beauty of it, right? If we learn to surrender to the outcome. And so I want anybody that's dating right now to start to date with detachment. That doesn't mean you don't care about people, but what you're doing is you're detaching from the outcome. Because when we're beholden on this has to be the one, there's no one else.

What do you think is happening? You're releasing dopamine and then you're becoming addicted to that person like a drug. And they might just not actually be your person. Why is women do we often find ourselves taking that $10,000 offer?

Where did you learn that from? That's always the question I go back to.

It was like well, where did I learn that that's all I'm deserving of? Where did I learn that that's all I'm worthy of? Me, my dad, my dad taught me that. Was that nobody is going to spend money on you? No one's going to care about you.

“Nobody is going to be there because that's how he taught me that what was love.”

So, if we're talking about the brain, when we start to date and we get really excited, we get triggered often, right? Now, that word has been hijacked in the TikTok University world. So, like for argument's sake, we'll explain. A trigger is a cue to your nervous system that you're not safe. It's a neutral action or inaction. So that could be your partner slams the door.

And you might have had trauma as a kid. That doesn't mean your partner did something wrong. That was a cue to your nervous system.

And the problem is when people get triggered, what happens?

You're prefrontal cortex shuts off and you go into your amygdala, your amygdala is your fear center. That's stop growing when you're about seven. So, we're coming at it from children and we're literally acting as if we're dealing with our parents again, which is why we feel like we don't have choices and why we feel like we take what we can get. Because if I scare somebody mindset that I don't believe it's out there,

then I'm never going to actually stand up for myself that it is. And the biggest thing, if anybody is listening, this is the number one thing. You got to learn to grieve the ending of things. Because when you start to sit boundaries, when you come and say, "I deserve more than this," you're going to have people that say, "I don't think you do."

That's okay, let them go. Because it's the same as if I were to try to find a buyer for software and they say, "I want to pay $10 for the shirt and I tell you it's 20." But you're not my buyer because you don't appreciate the value of what I offer. How do someone learn that, though?

That's doing the work, right? So really understanding your value. I love internal family systems, so IFS. I love parts work, and so to me it's really about understanding. Okay, where did I learn that from? Let's back it up.

Let's say you're out there and you are a baddie in your career, right?

So maybe what we want to start to look at is, what are the coping mechanisms that got me to where I am in my career? What did I learn that from?

“And then how is it manifesting in my relationships because they don't always go together?”

I could be a bulldog in my business, doesn't mean I need to be a bulldog with my partner. Then what we want to start to say is, what are my patterns? We want to look at what are the patterns that I keep doing, right? And the patterns are, I self abandon, I play small, I fawn, I get scared, right? The first thing I would say is, okay, well when that trigger happens, what's happening in your body?

Where do you feel it? Do you feel it in your chest? Okay, how familiar does that feel? And then how will do you feel? Yeah, asking ourselves, like when sometimes when Ryan will say something and I'm like, I'm going to ring your neck. I have to remember and go, wow, I feel like I'm seven. Oh, I feel like I'm talking to my dad again.

And it's not actually about my partner, but do you notice how like self awareness is the first step? And then the choices that we make that come after are really how we start to make changes? I find this fascinating because I was that woman who like, my safety net is why I am so driven and ambitious today. Like, that is the thing I love the most about myself. It also created such problems for me when I was dating before I met my husband. And I remember my therapist didn't this really interesting exercise with me where I recognized for the first time that I could not ask for help from anyone in my life.

I wouldn't ask it for my friends, like let's take moving for an example. I would inconvenience myself, put pressure on myself.

I would never say to my friends, like, I need your help moving this weekend. I'm in a crunch.

I'm going to be having to do 10 different trips with my car going back and forth from my house. I wouldn't ask for help from my friends. And it was that simple exercise of like, I wasn't ready to apply that with men yet because that was so scary to me. Like, needing someone in a relationship was terrifying to me. So I did that through learning with friends, like, okay.

I now need to ask my friends first for help before I'm ever willing to do it with my husband. Like, I think every woman listening to this is a very driven, successful. They want the best life for themselves. So putting themselves in situations that are scary and uncomfortable before they do the big one. Yeah, like, what are other examples like that that women can be doing to practice this?

I love it. My greatest is what we're going with. So our nervous system is flexible, right? It is. We want a flexible nervous system. So we have something called our window of tolerance. Your window of tolerance is essentially how what can you go through where you either go into hyper arousal, getting super anxious or hyper arousal shutting down. When you're in your window of tolerance, that means we have flexibility, right?

So I can get an convenience, but that's okay. I can bring myself and we have we want that, right? We don't just need to be regulated all the time.

“So that's why yours resolutions don't work.”

Newers resolutions don't work because if we say, I'm going to lose a hundred pounds tomorrow. Your nervous system is saying, you haven't gotten off the couch in like six years. That's too overwhelming. You're not safe. We don't know what to do here.

Let's go back to what we do. Your brain is always looking for shortcuts.

So we want to do micro yeses. So for instance, if I were going to say, I want to work out every single day and I want to lose a hundred pounds, my advice would be put your shoes by the door for a day. Then the next day you put your other shoe. Then the next day you put your socks. Then the next day you put your other sock. You start to increment it because what you're telling your nervous system is this is safe to do

and I can achieve the goal. And so that's why your therapist recommended saying, hey, why don't you go and ask a friend first and then how would you actually be curious? And if you don't mind getting both of ours, what were you afraid of happening when you did us for help? What was the fear? Someone abandoned me or me needing them.

And I never needed anyone in my life because I've had to figure things out for myself.

“Did you never need anybody or did you need people that you didn't have that available to you?”

I needed people and I didn't have that available to me. In the way of the dynamic of dating and relationships. And so that was a very scary thing for me to learn. And I honestly feel like there was a few things that I had to learn before I was truly ready to even meet the potential of my husband. What do you think are the three most common things that women need to learn before they are ready to fall in love with their husband?

You gotta learn how to say no. That's the biggest to me is like you gotta learn to walk away from the wrong things. You gotta take up space. You have every right to tell somebody I don't like what you said to me. I don't appreciate that. We have got to be okay. And I think the third thing is regulate your nervous system. Because if we don't have regulating techniques, then I'm going to scream at my partner all the time.

Like the reality is love is conditional. Unconditional love is childhood. You hope that your parents no matter what you do even if you killed them, they would still love you. Adore relationships are conditional because if your husband made a 180 tomorrow and started acting like a tyrant, you wouldn't still going no matter what I'm going to be by your side. You would have respect for yourself to say excuse me, this doesn't work for me and either we work through it or I walk. And so I think those are the three main aspects because learning to grieve the ending of things is really how we'll be able to move on because that's where people get stuck.

It's like look at the narrative that you've created about this and usually what does it mean about you?

“That's what I really want everybody to get back to because when we start to ask why don't they like me, why don't they want to be with me?”

I want you to reframe why I don't like. I don't like that they don't want to be with me. Okay, what don't you like about it? I don't feel chosen. Great. So that's the issue. It has nothing to do with why they're not doing this. The more we focus external, the more we're disconnected from internal experiences and what we're going through. And so I think we have got to be okay. One being alone and not being alone being single forever. That's the way.

But knowing that if this doesn't work for me, I'm okay to walk away because I know better exists.

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Start selling with Shopify and sign up for your $1 per month trial at Shopify.com/hzar. That's Shopify.com/hzar. I love when you said questions. Are there specific questions that women should be asking themselves to take inventory of how they feel after a first date in a second date? Like, what would you say those questions are that women can actually answer in their journal when they're having that alone time after date?

Or really sit with like, that is a good feeling. I want to do that again. I remember a friend, she was a therapist once and I was a guy who treated me very poorly. And she said, remember the feeling so that you won't go through this again. And I was like, hmm, in the positive and the negative, right?

“I think after first date, the first question I always ask is how did I feel with them?”

I don't care how you felt about them. I really don't because I hear it all the time. The spark in the chemistry. It's like, sure, that can mean you to have great sex. That's without saying. You might have this electric chemistry. That doesn't mean you're compatible. That doesn't mean that you can have conflict regulation and repair. That doesn't mean that you can get through the hard times. That just means you can have some fun.

So I think after a first date, we want to ask, how did I feel with them? Did I feel safe? Like, not just physically safe, of course, but did I feel emotionally safe? Did they judge me? Did they just credit me? Did they gaslight? Did they deflect? How did they speak about their ex if you spoke about it? How did they speak about people in their life?

And also starting to get curious within ourselves was I comfortable to ask questions. Did I feel safe enough? Because I see it all the time. We'll go on a first date. And everything is, I don't want to say anything. I don't want to be too much. If I'm going to be too much, then go find less. That's fine. I'd rather take up the space and ask the important questions.

Like, I always ask on a first date, how did your last relationship end and what did it teach you about yourself?

I don't care about the ex. I don't care about the ex. I want to know how it ended and what you learned because I want to understand if your growth might did. I want to understand if you talk about your ex negatively. I want to understand where you've processed and moved on, otherwise that could be a really big red flag. So I think it's also being cognizant and aware when we're on the dates to saying, "I hated when they said this. Don't overlook that." Do you think that men date differently than women in today's society?

Yes, and. I think men are becoming more aware of things. It's a slow progression, don't get me wrong. But I would say 50% of my clients are actually men. And I get a lot of men that come to me saying, "I don't know what to do anymore." Right? Like, if I call too much, I'm being too much. If I don't call, she says I'm ignoring her. If I make too many plans, I'm being too easy. If I don't make plans, then I'm playing a game. And so I think there's a big confusion, especially as women that are founders and CEOs and baddies.

It's going to be difficult because men are trying to figure out where they fit, especially when the gender norms have always been like,

"You stay home and cook and clean and I stay out. We're switching that." And I'm so here for that. But I think men date a little bit more in the moment, right? They're just like, "I like her. She's cool. I want to see her again." Women are on the, "Do I want to have kids with this person? Do I see them coming home with me for Christmas?" And it's like, "You had one drink with the person. We don't need to figure all that out." And so I think it's finding a balance. Now that's not all people.

But I think men have a little bit more of a presence when they date that they're in the moments. And then when they are gone, they will then process and say, "She was cool, but I don't need to see her again." Or as women, I think we hold on to the projection and the idea of them so much more than we actually need to.

Is that why you think that we're seeing a lot more situationships happen? Because we're dating completely differently?

“And situationships are one person's to afraid to speak up, and the other one is benefiting from not committing, which one of the two are you?”

Situationhips, what are they, right? They are a relationship without the boundaries and the terminology. So you're sleeping together, you're going out together, maybe you're hanging out with friends and family, you're doing all the travel, maybe you're going away, right?

We're doing all the things, but no one's ever talked about. So what are we doing here? Here's what I like, right?

And so I think the reason we have situationships is because people are terrified of taking up space. There's the one person that's benefiting from that. And then there's the other one. Because I hear it every day, I'm scared to say something, what if they walk away? It's like, well, then you didn't have them to begin with. And so I think there's a fear of I don't want to be too much.

But that really is a core belief that's not actually who this person is because I slept with my partner on date one. And I looked him in the eyes, I promised you and I swear, I looked him in the eyes right after we went to dinner. And I said, I had a really good time. And if this is all it was, great. Thank you so much. I kind of needed that. And if not, if you're going to call me, that's because we're intentional. Don't waste my fucking time. I don't do casual. I don't do hookups. And if you get to know me, that's because we're building something. If not, it was great to meet you.

And when I left, people have asked him, Ryan, why did you call her again? And he said she wasn't afraid of losing herself. She didn't care about losing me. And he was like, those are really sexy because I knew you were there because you really wanted that you didn't need me. And I think that's where we want to get to is like, I want you in my life, but I don't need you in my life because it's full and robust as it is. I love your advice because I feel like a lot of other dating and relationship coaches. They try to put parameters around certain things.

Like, this is what it means when you sleep on the first date. This is what it means when you wait this amount of time.

But I do think that one of the most confusing things for me when I was dating, especially as a busy woman, is like, when we especially go through education, we're taught like, process equals outcome. And if you do this, you get that. The do-be have cycle. And one of the hardest concepts for me to grasp in dating was like, there is no outcome with the right process. And what is the right time frame that like you even know when you're an associate and you're going to move up to a manager and you're going to go to a director or like,

when you raise X amount of money, what are you going to be able to do with your business when you get that? And I think dating for highly ambitious women is challenging because it's one of the first times where it's like, there are no none of those rules. What are signs or feelings that's like, you are progressing. This isn't going from love bombing. This is actually progressing in the right way because one of the things that I've seen you talk about is like, if things should marinate slowly, things should be slow, like how slow is too slow, how fast is too fast.

I think it's a valid question. I think when we're looking at timelines, there isn't, right? Like to your point, somebody could get married after six months and say it's the love of their life and someone could take five years. I think what we're looking at is, do you feel safe? Do you genuinely do a foundation of safety? And the biggest thing I also really look at is what are both of you doing to progress it? Are you having conversations of depth? Are they being consistent? Consistency doesn't mean that they text you every single morning at the same time.

Somebody could do that and text you and 17 other women while they're taking a shit and not actually be intentional, right? Like, I've seen it. I've seen men set a timer. I've been on dates where they text other women while they're with me. That doesn't mean anything. What I want to look for is, do they shy away from conversations or do they have them fat head on? Are they curious?

“Curiosity is so important. Do they ask questions? Do they genuinely care about you and what you have to offer? Are they making space for you in their life, right?”

If we have a first date, first date, just to see if I want to have a second date, just to see if I want to have a third date. That's why I hate the advice of date to marry.

I'm not opposed to being intentional, of course. Like, I don't want to waste my time and this is what I want. But when we put it on, I'm dating to marry. What we're saying is that's the only thing that matters. Everything else doesn't matter. I want that. Well, but you get to choose that. You get to choose the partner that you do that with. And so instead of I'm dating to marry, I'm dating intentionally because I know what it is that I want. I have my non-negotiables and I'm not going to settle for anything less.

That is the energy that we want to bring as opposed to it being kind of I feel like muddied with. Don't sleep with them on the first date and don't call too many times. It's like, you think of them and you want to text them? Something to text. If the person doesn't answer, great. They're not that interested. I don't think we need to overconflate it. I think we can look at because if somebody doesn't answer me for 12 hours. Sure. Great. That sucks. You know what also sucks? They didn't ask me out. They haven't made plans. They haven't called me. They haven't faced time to me. I haven't heard anything about them.

“The texting doesn't matter. What matters is they're not showing up. And for me, I think we really want to look for somebody when we're in those dating stages going slow.”

Are they having those conversations with you? Because if you can't even say something without being terrified, the love bombing right. You can set a boundary. Hey, I don't move at that speed. I really appreciate it. Thank you so much. I would love to get dinner. Why don't we do dinner on the third date first date? I'd like to get a coffee.

I feel I would have been so uncomfortable saying to someone. I don't do that on the first date. Let's do that on the third date.

And I did find myself in situations before my husband where I was with a lot of love bombers. And I couldn't really figure out the difference between love bombing. And like wow, this feels really good into your point. Like you slept with your partner on the first date. Like things progressed. If someone is feeling like they're in this pattern of being with these love bombers. Because I did find it very hard to set boundaries. I will say before my husband, I found it extremely difficult. And I think a lot of ambitious women can relate to that, especially because ambitious women are having to be so masculine at their jobs.

There are solving so many problems. We feel like a relief when there is someone that comes into your world and is like, planned this. Let's go dinner here. I know you love 10th. Let's do this. I'm planning a trip for you. And I found it, truthfully, very hard to distinguish between this is love bombing and this feels like nice and good and it's progressing. What are those signs?

I think when we look at love bombing, it's an inorganic amount of love attention and affection in a short period of time.

So if I walked by this house and it's beautiful and I said, well, what a beautiful house. You're not throwing the keys at me. You're like, hey, come on in. It's like, no, I have to earn that. You need to get to know me. You need to understand me. You're not welcoming me into your home. But yet all of a sudden, we're going to give it away. Typically speaking, I would be curious for you. What will felt scary about setting a boundary?

“I think until about three months, six months before I met my husband, the question I was always asking myself was, does he like me or do I like him?”

And it was never. Do I like myself around this person? And it wasn't until I flipped that question and said, do I like myself? Did I prioritize myself while I was dating? It took me 31 years to learn that lesson. Why do we learn that lesson to late? Like, why is women are we constantly seeking the approval of the other sex to be chosen? Well, that's a core that's childhood right there. All in a nutshell. So I'll say this. If you're scared to set boundaries, I want you to visualize the little child that needed them.

I want you to visualize like the seven year old you and every time you don't set boundaries, you're telling that version of you, you don't mean anything to me. They matter more. I need them to like me because you are nothing. That's how I visualize it. When we think of like people pleasing, am I being hurtful or harmful? I can hurt your feelings by saying no. No, I'm sorry. I'm not in town that night. I apologize. I can't make it. Harmful is mommy needs a self care day when your kid has a recital and you're like what are you doing? You're your child needs you.

And so we're looking at if I'm hurting your feelings fine, I can do that. No, I can't make dinner. I apologize. I have not even apologized. I can't make dinner. I have a meeting that night. But I could do Thursday. If we're scared typically speaking when we're scared to set a boundary, we're scared of what is that going to mean about me.

“Am I going to be abandoned? Are they going to reject me? Are they not going to like me? Am I going to be difficult? Am I going to be too much?”

And that's where I have to say, how will do you feel more jellin' that from? Because if I say, that's true. I'm not the 30. I'm 35 right now. Am I a 35 year old woman that is saying no, I don't want to do that? Because when we say no, oftentimes as women were told, keep sweet. Play nice. Be a good girl. And then setting boundaries goes against that. And that goes into that fun response. That's your nervous system saying, I don't know what to do here. I don't feel safe and I can't keep you safe. That's our job now. Because as the adult, that's my job to take care of my little. I couldn't set a boundary with my father, but I can set one now because I'm not seven anymore. I'm an adult.

How can you spot the person that's ready for love and the person that just wants the attention? Boundaries. If you, if somebody that wants attention texting you all the time, can we see, did it? Did it? Did it? The minute you say, that doesn't work for me? You start to see their intentions because they might take it personally, or they say, well, I was just trying to be nice. And you're like, well, all right, well, I'm just saying, I don't want that. That is the quickest way. And I know I feel like a broken record of like the boundaries.

“Boundaries do feel scary, but that's why we have to practice them saying no to a barista that asks if you want something in your coffee.”

That maybe normally you'd say, yes, because you don't want to be difficult, but this time you say no. I want to present. That's okay, right? Because what you do is you teach your nervous system that's safe. I'm allowed to do this. I remember when I'm, when I'm red Ryan, we, it was maybe like a month after we started dating. And I was sitting by my pool area at my old apartment, and I called my mom and I said, there's something that's bothering me that he's doing. And I said, mom, I'm terrified. He's going to call me in 20 minutes. What if he breaks up with me? And my mom said, good, let him do you the favor then?

And I was like, oh, and I remember calling and seeing him, and he just sat there and I told him, and I was waiting for it. I'm like, he's going to tell me in too much in this. And he just said, man, that makes total sense. I'm so sorry. I did that. You're right. I need to take ownership of that. And I remember being like, what? Sorry, what? Did you, did you just take accountability? Did you, you just told me that I'm valid?

But that wouldn't have happened unless I took up that space because if I had played a small, my needs were never going to be met because how would they have been if I don't advocate for myself?

One of your most viral videos is about not changing who we are. Changing the environments that we're in. What advice do you have a woman who are ready for that? But it still really affects them to set those boundaries. Like, what are they doing to move past that? Grief, you got to learn to grieve. That's the biggest thing because the thing is people, please, there's one everything to work out. And it's not there's nothing wrong with anyone, people pleasing, but that doesn't come out of, oh, I'm such a good person. I just want to make everyone happy. It's like, no, that's a fun response.

That's me trying to control the outcome. If I'm a good girl and I manage the what's happening, then I won't get in trouble. I won't get yelled at everything will go my way.

We all know that never happens. And so the number one thing is we've got to learn to grieve. What does that mean?

Cry validate your experience. Hey, that really sucked. I didn't love that. If you actually self-compassion releases more dopamine than external. So even just saying, given everything I've been through would be mixed, hold a sense that would be really tough to set a boundary.

“That right there just released dopamine. And that's how we validate our own experience. If I don't validate my emotions, what makes me think that my partner is going to be doing that?”

Because if I stir crying and say something in my part about here, go again, being a good job. Okay, well, I didn't validate my own emotions. If I did, I'd excuse me, that's disrespectful. I'm hurting right now, and I'm going through something. But then if I do that, I have to be okay with the fact that that person might not respect that. That means I have to be okay to lose things. I had to learn that even with my business. When I started software, I remember saying, if I lose this, I'm nothing. I'm a worthless nothing.

And then I went to Shark Tank and I was on my, I was there. I was on set and they said me home. And I had to be okay to lose things because when I did, this entire career started. When I walked away from the guy right before Ryan that I was dating, that was a total jackass, a waste of my time. I met him three days later because I wasn't holding on to what wasn't working. I was making space for what would. And I think we have to have some element of faith to believe that there's something out there for us. And I'm not going to settle until I get it.

You didn't come this far to deal with that, to deal with some boy who their mother didn't teach them right. Like we are not doing that anymore. It's 20, 26 or whenever you're listening to this, you deserve better. One of the most shocking red flags that my therapist taught me about, which I would have completely overlooked as a busy and vicious women. That was dealing with like much different level of priorities. But like when I would go on a date, I would overlook the very small thing. So he said this thing to me where he said,

"Don't overlook a man's car being messy if they pick you up for a date because that actually is a sign that they are not going to prioritize your needs in the future relationship." And I was so confused by that because I was like, "What do you mean a messy car will mean that this person won't prioritize me?" And he broke it down by saying that people make the things that they want to make a priority. And if he wanted to make a good impression on you, he would have cleaned up his car. He would have made it felt like an environment that you were a priority in.

Whereas you are one of many things that that person is dealing with at the end of the day and him not coming with a clean outfit and a nice clean car, not like a nice car, but a clean car, signals that you are one of many priorities you aren't the priority.

And he was so interesting because I went on a first date that week and there was a guy that picked me up in a messy car.

I was able to pick up on other little red flags that I may have overlooked because I was in the mindset of like, "I'm trying to build an empire right now. I'm not paying attention to how messy your clean car is. I was paying attention to way bigger things."

“What is another small, simple thing that people should be paying attention to?”

But they often overlook that gets them in that same situation again. Red flags are a pattern of behavior. So when we're looking at red flags, how do they deal with the waiters? Right, I always look at like, how do they deal with people who are out? Because if you don't hate treat everybody with respect, just because you don't deem that this person can do something for you, then I'm not interested in continuing. I look at what happens when I share something, how do they handle my vulnerability? Because that's really important.

I look at how do they regulate?

For me, that's number one because my really good friend of mine is a neuroscientist and he always says your story determines your strategy.

And so when I'm feeling super secure in myself, and I'm feeling really good in that ventral state, and I'm feeling really regulated, my story is, "I can do this, and I got this." And then my strategy starts to show that I take care of myself, I clean my home. That's what we want to look at to your point. If somebody is a hot mess in every area of their life, what makes you think that they're going to be any different with you. And so we want to look at patterns of behavior. How do they talk about people in their life? How do they communicate with you?

“Like, I know I think a lot of people want to look for the small little things, and like, sure, right?”

Things of, do you feel like they're being disingenuous? Like, do you think they're aligned? Do you think that that's sure? But I think early on in dating, what I want, what the biggest thing I look for is, do they hold true to their word?

And if you didn't, did you take ownership as to why you didn't, or did you just pretend like you didn't tell me you were going to call me three nights in a row and never did?

And I think we overlook things like that. Oh, he's busy. Oh, yeah, they just have a lot of things going on. It's like, so did I. I have a lot of things going on. I'm incredibly busy. I've had a lot of trauma. I don't hurt other people. And so if I'm not doing that, why do I have to make it okay for other people to do that? What I'm my favorite video that you've posted was the men, Mary, the women in proximity, the yellow cap theory. Okay, can you explain this to everyone that don't know what it is?

Of course. So anyone March Sex and the City is the yellow cap theory that when a man has his cablight on, that's when he's ready. Here's a harsh reality. It's not just about love. It's proximity and timing because I can love somebody with every bone in my body. But if I'm not emotionally available, it's going to be a mood point. Me and Ryan Matt, we both were dealing with grief. And we have both said, had we met even a year prior. It would never have worked because he needed and I needed to go through such a great loss to appreciate the life that we had to then say,

"What am I doing? I need to change the way I'm doing things." If I had met him a year prior, I wasn't my hot mess phase, it was texting too much.

“Proximity and timing matter a lot more than love because you could think that this person is the best thing on the planet.”

But if you met them at the wrong time, you met them at the wrong time. Like maybe if you met your husband 10 years prior, you wouldn't have been in a space. But when you met him, you were at that time saying, "Okay, I'm ready for this. I can do this. I can show up at this now." That matters a lot more than how much you love somebody. Does that matter about what's going on in your life at that time? Like a lot of people listening to this are in the throes of building the business, raising the money,

trying to keep their life together? Like is that the right time to date? I don't think there is a right or wrong time. I met Ryan when I had nothing. Like let me preface. Software when it started was quite successful. After the shark tank thing, and I had a whole thing with the company 8/8. And so at that time, I had nothing. I had just started creating content on TikTok. I couldn't afford rent. I couldn't afford food. I couldn't afford my dogs medication,

which then potentially was the reason he passed. Like there was a lot happening. And if I had that, "Oh well, no, no, I'm building a business. I can't date you to me those are excuses." Because I had a lot to give, and I also had a lot to receive. I just prioritized differently. Because I made choices for myself to do that. I'm not saying that anybody listening, please take whatever time you want.

If you say you're not ready, please don't feel forced. But eventually, we do have to say, ready isn't necessarily a timeline. It's a feeling. It's a feeling of, I'm ready to be disappointed if that happens.

“I'm ready to be excited. Because I think a lot of us were so used to being disappointed.”

Right, what if it doesn't work out, but what if it does?

What if it does? My mama always said, "Be careful what you wish for because when you get it, what are you going to do with it?"

Are you ready to receive that in your life? And so if you're focused on the business, that's great. If you genuinely don't have bandwidth in time, please don't waste anybody else's. But if you were saying, I do, I could make a few nights a week. Like, I could make space for someone else in my life. Don't let your business not be where you want it to be.

Be the reason you don't do that because there is no perfect time. I'm so grateful, I gave Ryan a chance. Even though I was in the thralls of starting a really amazing company, I wouldn't have been able to do it without the experiences of my partner. Because he triggered me in ways that helped me grow. And that growth helped work in my career as well.

Did you just use triggering as a good thing? That word?

“I think triggers are a good thing. Okay, can you explain that a little bit more?”

Absolutely. So triggers, like I said, neutral action or inaction, what a trigger does as a Cheds light for me on things that I need to work on. So if I'm triggered consistently, so let's say, I get trolls on the internet. We all take right, everybody gets it. And when I get triggered by them, I have to stop and go, all right, girl, you believe what they're saying then. Then there's something about what they're saying that is hitting a nerve for you, work on it.

To me, it's an opportunity. It's an invitation for me to get curious about myself.

I don't give you an example, because I always come with a still kind of learning each other.

We had gotten our first house and we were like, okay, we're doing it. And I remember he was in the kitchen and I said, hey, baby, do you want to do something? Like, do you want to go do, go to home, go to think, but knowing me. And he went, no, they just walked off, right? To anybody else they'd go, all right, partner just as one, too.

I, that was it. I was, I got this wave of heat. I sat there and I was like, I'm about to kill it. And I had to stop and I said, no, no, no, no, the pinch doesn't match the out. You're freaking out. Your partner's allowed to say no and I said, I sat there and I said, Sabrina, get curious. And I went, how will do I feel? And I was like, this is dad, got it. And I said, okay, I felt dismissed. It doesn't mean it's what he meant to do.

But I felt dismissed. So he came back in the room and I said, can I share something with you? Which is always what I suggest asked for consent when you'd like to have a conversation with somebody about something serious. So can I share something with you? I said, when you did that just now that reminded me of my dad, because growing up he would go and walk off. And I felt so small and dismissed. I know that wasn't your intention. But moving forward, would you be able to maybe just give me a reason why you don't want to do it?

So I don't internalize and take it personally. And he stopped and went, I make so much sense. I could see how that was actually a really dick move. I'm so sorry. You're right. Moving forward, I'll let you know why I don't want to. We've never had the issue again.

It's not Ryan's fault. He's allowed to say no. He's allowed to do things.

I'm the one that has to work on it because if I make triggers everybody else's problem, I'm outsourcing my healing to everybody else when they didn't do anything. What date did you tell Ryan about the trauma with your dad? It was about three months and why did you wait so long? Because we can't, we don't trust these. Who are these people? I don't trust that person. What if they're a narcissist and they're going to use that against me?

We have to trust this conditional. I give you a little. I see what you do with it and I see then how what is the space you create? Because if I say something vulnerable and then all of a sudden two weeks later you use that against me, I just gave you ammunition into my deepest darkest wounds. The things that are gaping it open that I'm trying to heal shut and I'm giving you access to them to support salt anytime you want. That has to be earned and we trauma dump because a lot of the times when we trauma dump we want to create that intimacy.

We want to force that of like, oh look look how close we are. I told them all about my dad and they didn't run. But that other person also doesn't want to do with it. They might not know how to support you. They don't know you well enough. It feels uncomfortable.

And so I don't think, you know, hide it. But I told Ryan on our first status in my father and I have a tumultuous relationship and over time it's something I'd love to share with you.

“But for now that's what I feel comfortable sharing.”

And he was like, okay, and same with him. He was like, I don't talk to my dad and in time. We didn't talk about trauma until like four or three or four months in when we started to feel comfortable and I thought, okay, I could see this going somewhere. Because why am I going to share with you my deepest darkest wounds if I don't even know if I want to see you again. If you want to place in 2026 where you don't have to worry about the algorithm or the charts, but you still want a profitable place to make money off of your brain and thoughts, then we need to talk about P.

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What did you mean by that? Narcissists love to do that. So think about it if I tell you, growing up my dad made me feel like I was invisible and you're like, oh, yeah, totally. And then all of a sudden two weeks later, we're in the kitchen and I do something and it's no wonder your father couldn't stand you. And you're like, wait, oh my god, wait, you see that too. They can use it against you because they know how to manipulate that if they know that that's your wound that you're a killie seal, right, then they can do things that could actually hurt you intentionally because what happens.

Let's specifically narcissists. We hope that nobody else does this. Narcissists they go into the, they just read you with love, right. That's why they love bomb and they come on really strong because they are charming and they want to win you over. You want your boundaries to come down so they become the center of your universe. They do it as so, look, I love you. Look how much I care about you.

And then they go into the discard phase when they have no more use for you. That's it. Goodbye. I don't need you anymore.

We don't need to hand that to them. You need to make sure that they've earned that place in your life. They don't just get it because I'm not just going to tell you what I want. Kids that what you can tell me later that my dad was right. There's something wrong with me. Did you ever experience that? Did you ever have anybody use your traumas against you? Totally, but I think that I was too naive to even realize it at the time. I don't think it was that outward is what you're talking about. But I've been in other dynamics and I have people very close to me that I've seen that dynamic play out and it's dangerous and scary,

which is why like this conversation was so important to me for a few reasons. Like when I was single and my biggest fear in life was truly building an empire,

building a business that I knew that I was going to be able to do and waking up at 50 and looking around and not being able to celebrate that with people.

“Because the one truth that I really fundamentally believe is the key to a happy, healthy, longevity life is relationships.”

It is the one thing that like we need as humans after food and water and our basic necessities. And I felt for so long like I did not know how to date. There wasn't a playbook. And I'm fascinated with your story because I think that there's going to be a lot of founders that are listening to this that are kind of at their widths and of building their business.

Like I get a lot of messages from women that are like it's been five, six years. Like it's not progressing.

I don't know what to do. My identity is tied up in this. I want to pivot. And so I really wanted you as a gas because you are an expert in dating and relationships, but you also mastered the pivot yourself from a multi-million dollar company to completely going a different direction. So I really want to focus the next part of the conversation on that because a lot of people that are listening to this will understand what Shark Tank is and like that's how far you did get. Let's take it back to 2022. Your 32 years old, you make it on to Shark Tank. You're running a clothing brand. Your dream as a child seven year old Sabrina is to be a clothing empire female CEO.

“How did you end up as a dating and relationship coach that made their mark on social media? Like what happened?”

So back Shark was in 2019, I got my heart ripped out and stepped on and I almost took my life because the relationship ended and it was the worst breakup. I married my father, right? Like it was the same thing. I was with a married. We were and we don't really talk about it too often. Okay. Anyways. Yes. So I was married for a year. It was a very blip on the screen and it was a very like we love each other. Let's just do it without really thinking it through. And I became a shallow human. I was about 30 pounds soaking wet. Like I was truthfully told I'm five eight. I was 96 pounds. I think at the time. So I was very scary looking.

And it was to the point where people were asking like, "Hey, are you okay?" I was alienated from friends and family. He really got me away from everybody and was incredibly manipulative and would do one of us loves you more than the other. And so he was trying to imply that he loved me more than I loved myself. Very manipulative so that I would constantly cave and say, "Okay, whatever he says I will do." And when I got out of that, that's my start therapy. I was like, "I know there's got to be more to this. There's something wrong."

And I dove head on and I started to even see the difference between, okay, the internet is telling me if he wanted to he would.

“But is that accurate? Right? Like isn't there more to it than that? Isn't there bandwidth? Isn't there capacity? Are we talking trauma? Like can I have questions?”

And so it was the start of that. Then fast forward to 2022. I moved to LA. I left New York and I was in New York for 12 years. And I get to LA and I'm thinking, "This is going to be great. Dating is fantastic. I've been all these hot guys." Oh my God, it was worse than I ever imagined. I felt so alone and I felt really scared because I was taking up space. I was having these conversations and I wasn't being met with that reciprocity. So I'm like, "Oh, here we go." So fast forward. Now it's 2022 in summer and I get shark tank. This to me is it.

Right? Like this is the mecca. I made it through 40 something rounds of calls. I'm on the last step. I'm on set. And I'm like, "Okay, this is my life." And that's also where we were talking about earlier of not putting everything into one thing. And I said, "This is going to be it." And they put me on set and all of a sudden they come in maybe after 20 minutes like, "Are you ready? You're up next." And I'm like, "Okay, I've got this set up and I go give it to Mark." Like this is it? And like another 30 minutes go by and like, "Hmm, this can't be good." And they come in, "I'm so sorry. We can't fit you on today."

We hate when this happens, I said, "Okay, you'll find another spot, right?" Oh, no, that's not how that works. We'll have to put you in a standby. I was like, "Wait, what do you mean standby?" So like, world crumbles. That's, I thought that was all I had. I didn't think I had anything else. And at the time, I remember I went home and I lost my marbles.

And I never spoke to him again after that, but I thank him for actually saving my life that night because he taught me that you could have to be beautiful date with someone in a great conversation that doesn't need to go anywhere. It could just be someone caring about you as a human and being there for you.

“And I think the next day, my friend said, "Listen, man, you talked about dating all the time you related to business, right? You're always talking about this. You should start a career."”

I was like, "No one's going to listen to me. Who cares about me?" That was my core beliefs. And so after Shark Tank, when they told me officially, sorry, that try again next year. I had nothing to lose. I had everything to gain. And so I said, "You know what? I have something to say. I'll start it on TikTok. I'm going to put myself out there. And I'm going to be okay being embarrassed because being cringe is part of it. And we'll learn." And then I just kept showing up and kept showing up and kept doing it. And then I started, my first viral video happened like two months later.

I just kept investing in myself. And then now here we are multimillion dollar company later where my partner is also my CEO. And my book comes out this year. Like, I've changed my life because I was okay losing what I thought was going to be my life. And that I think is part of dating relationships career that if you're at the end of the road saying, "I can't do this anymore. That doesn't make you a failure. That actually makes you really strong that you can admit that. What are your choices?" And that's where the pivot came in. If what are my choices, I could try something new. I can say what I want to say because I knew there must be other people out there that were feeling what I felt.

I didn't want to just make clickbait. I wanted to create content that actually spoke to the girl that I was because I needed that at the time.

And that's how I've always run my business. How can I actually help people not? How can we just put more things out there that already exist? Which is why hot smart rich exists.

“Right? You saw a hole. You saw that what you're doing wasn't being done and you filled it. And that's what we need more of even if you have to start over.”

You at this time, did you fully give up the dream of the clothing empire? Or were you like, "Okay, I'm gonna keep my feet in. I'm gonna kind of have like testing the waters." Like, where were you out in terms of the hard pivot or I would call the soft pivot? Soft pivot for sure because I had so much inventory. I still have like $80,000 of inventory at my factories. Like, "Okay, I kind of need to help liquidate this." So I saw it as I have software. I keep running it as I am. Let's see where this goes.

And then that started taking priority. That started growing. Then I started the podcast. It just everything kept morphing to where eventually software became an afterthought. And then here we are, potentially selling the company this year because it's just I love it.

And it's my baby and I am so grateful for it. The hard pivot had to come when I look at the bottom line going,

how much time and energy I'm spending to make this much, how much time and energy I'm spending to make this much. We're gonna go with and also what I love to do. Because again, it's okay. I remember when my friend started a company and he sold it.

“The first company, I think he sold for like $300,000, second company sold for $100 million.”

Big difference. And I remember asking him after he sold the $100 million company. I was like, "You know, I didn't know about the first company. I said you're so lucky." And he said, "Why?" I said, "Will your first company sold for $100 million?" And he goes, "No, no, you don't know about all the failures that came before it." And he was like, "But I learned from it. I learned from it so that I could become this version of myself." And so I think, for me, the hard pivot had to come when my soul just wasn't in the company anymore.

And my passion just wasn't there because I love to help people just not in that way. Do you think that you would have the same reaction as that with a brand that is so tied? Do you like this Sabrina as a hair show, the podcast, where is software? I love the founding story because it was surrounding your moms and yourisms. And obviously that was extremely tied to your identity.

Was it tied to your identity in the same way that you've built this brand? And obviously what you're passionate about now? So the funny thing is that the podcast, the Sabrina's "Oh, her show used to be called to the work." And I got a cease and desist a year and a half ago where I had to change it. I lost my shit when I got that. I remember collapsing and Ryan's arm having panic attacks because I was like, "This is it."

Right? The show was number three in education. I was climbing the charts. I couldn't keep up with the growth. It was just, but people didn't know who I was. They knew about the podcast. They were like, "Oh, you're the work. What's your new?" And I was like, "Wait, what?" But at the time, I was like, "I could lose it all."

Right? Change the name and just close it and be done or believe in myself and put my name on it. So I did have to pivot in that way. And I think that's part of being a good business owner is we're going to have a lot of inconveniences. You're going to have a lot of times that you're like, "Why am I here? Why do I do this?" I remember your why. I remember my who? Who am I doing this for? My little.

And so software had my identity to a certain extent, but because I think it was a product-based business.

There was a third part. Like, there was a bit of a gap there.

Whereas the podcast is so me. I'm vulnerable. I'm raw. I share so many stories. But I was okay losing it as well because I've already lost so much when I'm going to hold on to this for. You've built millions of followers cross-platform and I love one of your principles and it is. You choose danger when you upload a video. What does that mean?

And so I know that can come with a lot of backlash. Now, when I first started creating content and saying texting isn't the end, I'll be all. I got inundated. I got screamed at. I got yelled at. But I also had the audience that I was looking for and I knew I had to sift through it. And so now, I made the video got 11 million plays saying, you know, I'm going to say what nobody else says.

And you're using therapy talk as a reason to avoid accountability. Oh, I've had therapists, stitch it and try it. I'm going to let the engagement show you what it is that people resonated with it. And so I look at it as when I post and when I upload and I choose danger, I'm also okay choosing. Whatever's going to happen is me because I believe in what I'm doing.

I believe in what I'm saying and I believe in the messaging. That's all that matters. Do you feel more in your power as a CEO and founder doing this service base business than you ever did doing a product base business? 100% to be fair software my sister and I started and then she didn't want to do it.

And so I always had this where I was like, I did it with you. This is me.

This was me putting myself out there. This was me having nothing, starting with nothing. Zero followers on everything and saying, I have a thought and I have a belief because I believed in myself.

“So to me, that's why this matters more is because I started this from a place of, I had to eat what I killed.”

And so I really put myself into it. I love also what I do. There's nothing more special than having somebody say, I listened to a podcast of yours. I did the work and now I have a husband or I have a person or you helped me get there. I don't think there's any product I could ever make that will replace that. Do you think that you'd ever do product base businesses again?

No, thank you. No, unless the inventory is not a thing, right? If it's a card game or something where you only have, but having skews and sizes and colors and the that that no thank you, unless the stars align, it made sense, but I love service based way more. I had merch, right? I'll do certain things courses, things like that, but I enjoy working with people.

When was the moment that you connected the dots between? I'm running a content based thing to like, I'm running a content media business.

It was February 23. It was the first month I'll never forget it.

My mom called me and I said, Mom, I booked three people this month. If I do that next month, I could pay rent just on this business and the next month I booked out. All of my sessions and then the next month and then I was making 60k, 100k, 200k. I didn't know what to do with all this money. It was just coming at me in a great way, very blessed. But that was when I realized you have something here.

Once I hit the million followers, that's when I realized you're not just a creator, you're a voice and you get to use yours for something special. There's a huge misconception around follower count equals money. Because I think that there's actually like even for myself, I don't have a million followers. But I would say I have one of the most lucrative audiences because they are highly ambitious, driven, incredibly successful women that like, is a community that brands want to tap into.

When you were out of million followers, did that equal like a million dollars of sales? That's not even close. 100%. Followers are like being rich in monopoly. But for me, it was more of there's an audience that wants to hear me.

“That's what I was looking for is like, is there somebody that wants this?”

Is there someone that cares about this? Having a million people watching my videos? That was wild to me. But 100% you could have somebody with 10,000 followers, making $10 million a year. And you could have someone with 20 million followers, making nothing.

The platforms don't pay you. None of that is how you're monetizing. How I monetize is what I'm giving people. So I have courses. I've got the podcast, right? We've got all these different business out. You could work with me. There's all these different outlets.

But what I was looking for, the only reason follower count mattered to me was to know that there is people out there that actually want to hear my voice. And that's where keeps me going. Because if I only had 10,000 followers, maybe you would be a hobby. But I don't know that it would necessarily be the biggest business in the world because that helped me to understand. Okay, you have something here.

Was there ever a moment that you just thought like, this is all going to go away? Almost every single day. That's my trauma though. That's my stuff because growing up my dad, you wouldn't know. He would be off with his girlfriend, he cheated on my mom.

We didn't know if you said something to me and like you just leave, he would just walk out.

So I've always had this fear of, I'm going to lose it.

And every day I have to work on my nervous system to say you're not because you built it. It wasn't given to you. So nobody can take this from you. And if you lose it all, look what you built, you could do it again. And so that's myself talk of having to remind myself who the fuck I am and what I actually bring to the table,

not just what people benefit from me. Trauma doesn't go away. Anxiety doesn't go away. You learn to live with it. You learn to deal with it.

You learn to cope with it and you learn to rewire it, but you don't get rid of it. That's like getting rid of a part of you. You can't. Damn wish I could. If we could just like lobotom being just a get rid of anxiety,

but then honestly, I wouldn't be as good of a business owner. I saw this tech talk about the question being posed.

“Like if you could get rid of the worst thing that's happened to you, would you do it?”

And there is a part of me that wants to say, yeah, of course I would.

I think it actually makes me so much better at what I do every single day.

And it's something that stays with me because we all have our own unique stories. I feel like you've really come into yourself in the last three years. Do you feel like there's a whole next evolution that's coming like, what is your book about? What is that next phase?

“I think if I stop growing, then put me six feet under, right?”

Like if this is it, if this is it, I don't want it unsubscribe. There's got to be more to life than this. I have got to explore more. For me, my number one goal is like, I want my own show. I want to host a dating show where I actually can help people in a broader scale.

The book is about patterns. So I wanted to make sure it wasn't just about dating because I want everyone to be able to read it to understand. Where did I learn this from? How old do I feel? What's coming up for me? Did you ever see the movie or turn on some trend? No, but I don't watch movies or TV.

Okay. So, but in the movie, it's about getting your memory erased. And so the woman Clementine, who it's where I name my dog after, she gets her memory erased of him. And he's trying to do the same thing. And then at spoiler alert, anybody at the end, he's like, I don't want to let go of it. These are my memories. I don't want to lose her.

The whole point being of you can't erase the parts of you that you're some of all your parts. If I didn't have my father who taught me all these things, then I wouldn't have been a hot mess. I wouldn't have slept my way through New York. I wouldn't have done all this. And I wouldn't be where I'm at now because what personal experience would I come to you with?

How could I sit there and say, I know how you feel. Oh, you're spiraling because they didn't text you. You're starting to question your worth. You're calling all of your friends. You're having a panic attack.

Sit your ass down and let's talk. If I was like, oh, I met my husband at the grocery store when I was 18 and we've been together ever since, you probably wouldn't take my advice as much as the person saying, I got out of the depths of hell. Let me teach you how you're way out.

Of course it sucks. I wish I didn't have it, but at the same time, I wouldn't be the version that I am now. So what's the point of wishing we didn't have it? I'm so happy you came on Sabrina so hard. I have a few rapid-fire questions to ask you.

Okay.

“What is the last thing you put on your credit card?”

My laptop. That was a fun shirt purchase. Oh, that's so rough because you're like, I need it, but it's not like the most fun thing, but it's still the biggest thing.

Okay. First, eat coffee or walk.

I would go for a walk because I like bilateral movements help me process. And so when you're walking, you're actually regulating your nervous system and you're staying present. And so I think that's a really great way because coffee might be caffeine and could really impact how you're viewing that person.

And would you say walk over dinner? 100% I do not want to be stuck at dinner with someone I do not know. Personally. Okay. Split the beller, he pays.

If he asks me out, he pays. What is that? Who is your favorite comfort creator? I have Ashley Mixen, she's a skincare and she does skin flooding, and I just watch her for hours or lose ASMR pack in order with me.

I don't know why, but they're so relaxing. I don't look at anything in my field. It just throws me off my game. By the way, so to why, and I think like some people might interpret that is like not a good behavioral trait, like a mean girl trait,

but to me it actually makes sure that I stay in my own lane. It's like a horse race. I have my blinders on. I'm not getting influenced by what people are doing. So I refuse to look at what anyone else is doing in my field.

You don't want to see my TikTok algorithm. It's dogs, it's all the AS of our videos, and it's skincare. It's nothing dating because I get frustrated. I get anxious, and I'm like, you know what? I don't need to know what you're doing.

I need to know what I'm doing. Who is your favorite celebrity relationship? This doesn't age well. It used to be Ryan Reynolds and Blake Lively. Why?

Used to be. Now I would say, I really like Selena Gomez and Betty Blanco. I do. I love him so much that inadvertently I love them together, but I just love the way he shows up for her.

It's so beautiful. I love that. Who is this celebrity couple that you're like? They need to just leave each other. Anybody Jay-Lo teaches?

“Because I just every time I see it, I'm like, girl, what are we doing here?”

Yeah, that would be every time I see her. I'm like, there's a reason you guys are single. This isn't working. Who is your favorite creator brand that you aspire to be? Truthfully.

There's very few because I feel like a lot of the people, especially in my field specifically are Charlotton. There's a lot of snake oil salesmen. There's a lot of people that are inauthentic. I have people in my world like Jillian Trecky is a really good friend of mine.

I just love her as a person and I aspire for the way she's built her career to keep going. And we're like big sister little sister. I would say Jillian. She's just a really beautiful soul and her content's great. Okay, last question, Sabrina.

If you had to title this season of your life, what would it be called? It's good.

You've always stood over the stars, even the soul-flashback.

And then I hope that it's stupid. Don't you agree? Yes, exactly. This star is the star of the star, which can just be understood. The star on the studio, the job or the music.

It's stupid. I don't feel like a star. A star in the lead? Save. With this star.

I'm a star of the star, the star on the studio. I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead.

I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead.

I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead.

I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead.

I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead.

I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead.

I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead.

I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead.

I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead.

I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead.

I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead.

I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead.

I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead. I'm a star in the lead.

I'm a star in the lead. (upbeat music)